What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

[OnBaseMachine]

Wayne Krivsky helped start the Reds strong presence in Latin America with the hiring of Tony Arias in September of 2006. If not for Krivsky, the Reds may not have signed all these Latin prospects in the last couple years.

From Baseball America:

Since the Reds brought aboard Tony Arias from the Blue Jays in September 2006 after he spent seven seasons as Toronto's director of Latin American operations, the Reds have paid $2 million for Juan Duran and $2.5 million for Yorman Rodriguez in 2008, then followed that up with the Aroldis Chapman signing and another hefty bonus for Venezuelan shortstop Humberto Valor last year.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/...7638#more-7638

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine

Wayne Krivsky helped start the Reds strong presence in Latin America with the hiring of Tony Arias in September of 2006. If not for Krivsky, the Reds may not have signed all these Latin prospects in the last couple years.

WK also got rid of Almaraz which many baseball people were against. Not that one is better than the other, I am just making mention of it.

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

I can admit that these weren't the best uses of money in the end (that is quite obvious), but please admit that WK had his Lincolns and JHJs (namely Stanton, Cormier, Conine, and Freel) on top of the bigger ones (Gonzo, Harang, Cordero and Arroyo). At least admit that.

Admit I was at the dinner....at least grant me that.

I don't recall ever declaring in this conversation that Wayne never wasted money. I defended a lot of those moves at the time until it became clear that Wayne screwed the pooch on many of them.

None the less, you are the one with the consistency issue. You can't say poor ole Walt is so stymied by a complete and utter lack of cash....and then sit by as he makes sub-optimal uses of said cash.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Spring~Fields

Those are obstacles and barriers to achieving organizational goals and objectives.

But, I guess that might be “my problem”, with some of your points, no matter how well you state them or endure the course with it.

For example you will list what seems to be reasonable obstacles, barriers and hurdles that Mr. Jocketty has to deal with and that really can be hindrances, and basically you ask us or say that we should be reasonable and excuse what has been for him.

Yet, you don’t seem to list and consider that Bowden, O’Brien and Krivsky, had obstacles, barriers and hurdles that hindered them too, many of those same hindrances that you ask us to be reasonable about when discussing Mr. Jocketty could readily or easily be applied to his predecessors too. You seem to want us to discount to a great deal anything that the predecessors did accomplish or do right, also.

Most of all we really don’t know what ownership or that ownership group laid out for those GM’s to function under. We certainly can guess that it wasn’t that great of a environment to succeed in, certainly not compared to the one in St. Louis 2000 forward.

Jim Bowden as much I don’t like him, for years was neck and neck with Walt Jocketty and the St. Louis Cardinals, and they were truly competitive with one another, not this thing we call completive now, fourth or fifth place and a hopless prayer every off-season or spring, then a long endurance of frustration. Those two organizations took turns at being on top and winning. Until the dollars changed in large amounts upward for St. Louis, and stagnated for Bowden and the Reds.

I think that you should at least consider that each of the GM’s have or had some serious obstacles with their time with the Reds.

Not just in favor of supporting your points on Jocketty.

I don’t think that you will be given your points until, you also recognize what the men before Jocketty had to work with, and in the environment that they were asked to succeed in, and correctly give them credit for what they did right, not just what they did wrong.

Then again we have to run some double mindedness when arguing Jocketty vs the others, because we want Jocketty to do very well on one hand, but on the other we are trying to argue against him because of some of the double standards that are not right vs the other guys. It is hard to play it both ways, at the same time.

Nice post. A couple of points:

- Regarding WK, my problem with him was less about his performance and more about his philosophy. The philosophy of trying to win now when it was obvious that it was the wrong choice. He was given (in Cincy's respect) an open wallet and failed to deliver. And I really don't have much sympathy for the "Bob is a crazy owner" hurdle, since he had plenty of interviews and time to consider Bob's expectations. I felt that the money was allocated in the wrong way. I think that has been proven now.

- I am pointing out the hurdles that Walt has had to deal with because they are current and out there. Maybe O'Brien had some and maybe Wayne had some. To me, both the economy and 50% of his payroll tied up in three guys is tough to swallow. Plus, I am not "making excuses" for his performance, just his "lack of activity". There is a difference.

- The last thing is that I'm not really making excuses for Jocketty. To me, this is factual. I am really unsure what anyone wanted him to do when he had little payroll flexibility and an economic crisis happening around him. All I have heard is that he is the GM and he needs to figure it out. Sometimes it is out of a GM's hands. And I thought he played the situation beautifully by sucking it up and standing pat for a time, even when the fans were screaming that he was asleep. I really wanted WK to suck it up and save the money for when Votto, Homer and Bruce were maturing. Not when the team had little to no shot.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine

Wayne Krivsky helped start the Reds strong presence in Latin America with the hiring of Tony Arias in September of 2006. If not for Krivsky, the Reds may not have signed all these Latin prospects in the last couple years.

From Baseball America:



http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/...7638#more-7638

That's a little bit of a leap.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

Admit I was at the dinner....at least grant me that.

I don't recall ever declaring in this conversation that Wayne never wasted money. I defended a lot of those moves at the time until it became clear that Wayne screwed the pooch on many of them.

None the less, you are the one with the consistency issue. You can't say poor ole Walt is so stymied by a complete and utter lack of cash....and then sit by as he makes sub-optimal uses of said cash.

When I say that Walt lacks cash, I am saying he lacks the cash to make the kinds of moves people were crowing for him to make. Not a mil here and a mil there. It will be interesting to see what he will do when he gets a little more flexibility over the next 2 years.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by TRF

Krivsky signed Juan Duran.

just sayin'

And Tzu-Kai Chiu. Not Latin obviously, but an international signing.

I know he did.

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

When I say that Walt lacks cash, I am saying he lacks the cash to make the kinds of moves people were crowing for him to make. Not a mil here and a mil there. It will be interesting to see what he will do when he gets a little more flexibility over the next 2 years.

How many times have teams been pushed into the playoffs because a couple of fringe player types have a hot season or couple of months?

If his hands are so horribly tied because of the big names it makes those "smaller" moves that much more important, not less.

[TRF]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

Nice post. A couple of points:

- Regarding WK, my problem with him was less about his performance and more about his philosophy. The philosophy of trying to win now when it was obvious that it was the wrong choice. He was given (in Cincy's respect) an open wallet and failed to deliver. And I really don't have much sympathy for the "Bob is a crazy owner" hurdle, since he had plenty of interviews and time to consider Bob's expectations. I felt that the money was allocated in the wrong way. I think that has been proven now.

No it hasn't. You completely dismissed the fact that the owner was impatient, wanting a win now approach. The owner himself stated this after dismissing WK only to see two more losing seasons. That is an insurrmountable hurdle, as Jocketty himself has proven

Originally Posted by edabbs44

- I am pointing out the hurdles that Walt has had to deal with because they are current and out there. Maybe O'Brien had some and maybe Wayne had some. To me, both the economy and 50% of his payroll tied up in three guys is tough to swallow. Plus, I am not "making excuses" for his performance, just his "lack of activity". There is a difference.

Maybe DanO and WK had hurdles? DanO had an owner that didn't want to be an owner. WK had to suffer through the impatience of a new owner, and inheriting Griffey's, Milton's contracts were a weight. Walt's ownership hurdles? zero.

Also, lack of activity? Krivsky? please. The man was trading constantly. He threw anything at the bullpen wall hoping it would stick. To his credit, when he erred, Yan, he knew to drop the dead weight quick.

Originally Posted by edabbs44

- The last thing is that I'm not really making excuses for Jocketty. To me, this is factual. I am really unsure what anyone wanted him to do when he had little payroll flexibility and an economic crisis happening around him. All I have heard is that he is the GM and he needs to figure it out. Sometimes it is out of a GM's hands. And I thought he played the situation beautifully by sucking it up and standing pat for a time, even when the fans were screaming that he was asleep. I really wanted WK to suck it up and save the money for when Votto, Homer and Bruce were maturing. Not when the team had little to no shot.

He had payroll flexibility looming. 2008 was the end for Griffey, and even though he turned him into Masset, had he done nothing and kept him, Griffey is off the books at the end of 2008.

Originally Posted by edabbs44

That's a little bit of a leap.

No, more of a fact than leap.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by TRF

Also, lack of activity? Krivsky? please. The man was trading constantly. He threw anything at the bullpen wall hoping it would stick. To his credit, when he erred, Yan, he knew to drop the dead weight quick.

I was speaking about Walt's lack of activity.

Originally Posted by TRF

He had payroll flexibility looming. 2008 was the end for Griffey, and even though he turned him into Masset, had he done nothing and kept him, Griffey is off the books at the end of 2008.

What was the increase in Harang's and Arroyo's salaries? Kind of offset the Griffey money and probably more.

Originally Posted by TRF

No, more of a fact than leap.

Not really. The fact that Wayne had one big signing in LatAm at the end of his tenure doesn't really strike me as him making a huge move into the area. Maybe it was the beginning, but where was he from 2006-2008? We have seen a lot more activity since Wayne has left, so I guess it's anyone's guess if that is just Wayne's philosophy moving forward or just a coincidence.

[mth123]

Originally Posted by HokieRed

Jocketty's best move at St.L. may have been getting Wainwright for Drew.

I think it was getting Larussa.
Larussa begat Duncan and McGwire.
Duncan begat a bunch of successful pitching reclamations.
McGwire begat a national frenzy and tons of cash.
The cash begat just about everything else.

[TRF]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

I was speaking about Walt's lack of activity.

my bad.

Originally Posted by edabbs44

What was the increase in Harang's and Arroyo's salaries? Kind of offset the Griffey money and probably more.

Not in terms of production.

Originally Posted by edabbs44

Not really. The fact that Wayne had one big signing in LatAm at the end of his tenure doesn't really strike me as him making a huge move into the area. Maybe it was the beginning, but where was he from 2006-2008? We have seen a lot more activity since Wayne has left, so I guess it's anyone's guess if that is just Wayne's philosophy moving forward or just a coincidence.

It's more the people he put in place, that are still there, making those recommendations.

The ONE thing Walt has that WK didn't is the owner's ear and trust. Honestly, that's pretty much it. If he had that, the same people that found Duran still recommend YRod and he still gets signed. Chapman? who knows. maybe not, but again, the same people scouting him initially were put in place by WK, so you never know.

As for where was he? how about completely rebuilding the 25 man roster. WK's hill to climb was MUCH steeper than Walt's.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by TRF

Not in terms of production.

Right, but I am speaking about the money. Griffey comes off the books, Harang and Arroyo's pay escalates. Walt doesn't get any flexibility.

Originally Posted by TRF

It's more the people he put in place, that are still there, making those recommendations.

The ONE thing Walt has that WK didn't is the owner's ear and trust. Honestly, that's pretty much it. If he had that, the same people that found Duran still recommend YRod and he still gets signed. Chapman? who knows. maybe not, but again, the same people scouting him initially were put in place by WK, so you never know.

My question is why does Walt "have the owner's ear and trust"? Some on here automatically jump to Wayne's defense and put a lot of the blame on Bob. And I do think (and it is only my opinion) that Bob probably wasn't the easiest owner to work for at the time. Fair enough. But why don't we think that Wayne could have changed that? As I stated earlier, Wayne knew what he was getting into. If you were offered your dream job in any industry and the results would be very public, would you accept that job if it seemed as if succeeding at it would be nearly impossible, therefore hindering your job prospects for the future? Or would you continue to try and find a better situation?

Besides that, maybe we aren't giving Walt enough credit for "having the owner's ear and trust". If Wayne didn't have that and was still here, I have no idea what this team would look like by now and probably wouldn't want to know. Maybe Bob needed a GM to tell him that he was off his rocker.

No matter what, my personal opinion is that this team is headed in a better direction than it has been in for a while. And I couldn't care less who is leading them, as long as they are making the right decisions.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by TRF

As for where was he? how about completely rebuilding the 25 man roster. WK's hill to climb was MUCH steeper than Walt's.

One last question...if you had to completely rebuild a 25 man roster, would you really spend the money that he did in the short term? Rebuilding a 25 man roster will set a team back more than a few years. The last thing I would do is spend $50MM on two pitchers nearing their 30s and $46MM to a mid 30s closer. Rebuilding a 25 man roster should push your target date out 5 years...the guys I mention above would all be gone by the time those 5 years are over. Think about that.

Again, I'm not criticising the moves per se, more the philosophy.

[TRF]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

Right, but I am speaking about the money. Griffey comes off the books, Harang and Arroyo's pay escalates. Walt doesn't get any flexibility.

Production creates flexibility. Especially when said production comes from the rotation. The 2005 Reds had some offense. 2003 did too. horrible abysmal pitching. But flip that, give those teams rotations instead of offense, and depth in the minors and all of a sudden you have flexibility. Walt proved this in the Rolen trade.

Originally Posted by edabbs44

My question is why does Walt "have the owner's ear and trust"? Some on here automatically jump to Wayne's defense and put a lot of the blame on Bob. And I do think (and it is only my opinion) that Bob probably wasn't the easiest owner to work for at the time. Fair enough. But why don't we think that Wayne could have changed that? As I stated earlier, Wayne knew what he was getting into. If you were offered your dream job in any industry and the results would be very public, would you accept that job if it seemed as if succeeding at it would be nearly impossible, therefore hindering your job prospects for the future? Or would you continue to try and find a better situation?

Besides that, maybe we aren't giving Walt enough credit for "having the owner's ear and trust". If Wayne didn't have that and was still here, I have no idea what this team would look like by now and probably wouldn't want to know. Maybe Bob needed a GM to tell him that he was off his rocker.

No matter what, my personal opinion is that this team is headed in a better direction than it has been in for a while. And I couldn't care less who is leading them, as long as they are making the right decisions.

The simple answer is they know each other from their St. Louis days. Thats why he has his ear and trust.