Why does Dusty Baker refuse to make late inning defensive changes?

[OnBaseMachine]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

It certainly wasn't an error, but I'm fully confident Janish would have had it. Up 3 in the 9th, isn't it fairly standard practice to put in your defensive wizard?

I don't think there's any doubt Janish would have had it. Even an average defender makes that play, IMO. I hate to pile on the guy but it's amazing how far his defense has fallen. I used to love watching him play when he was with Montreal and always wanted the Reds to acquire him, but he's not half the player now that he was back then.

[OnBaseMachine]

Originally Posted by Screwball

If you can't see and admit that Cabrera has abysmal range (especially for shortstop), then I gotta think you have an extremely biased view on the matter.

Agreed.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Screwball

If you can't see and admit that Cabrera has abysmal range (especially for shortstop), then I gotta think you have an extremely biased view on the matter.

Did I say that? The ball was hit up the middle, over 2nd base. The whole defensive thing is getting completely overblown.

[Screwball]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

Did I say that? The ball was hit up the middle, over 2nd base. The whole defensive thing is getting completely overblown.

Um, no, no it isn't. You seem to want to play the "You just want to complain about something" card instead of acknowledging what just about every other Reds fan is seeing - the defense at a couple spots (namely, SS) is a growing problem for the Reds. If anything, defense is often overlooked, although that's becoming less the case in this day and age.

And BTW, the thread starter is hardly one to be an incessant cynic. I think he's got a great point about late inning defensive subsitutions, and at the very least it's worth discussing. It's not simply a topic brought up for us miserable grumps to complain about.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

It certainly wasn't an error, but I'm fully confident Janish would have had it. Up 3 in the 9th, isn't it fairly standard practice to put in your defensive wizard?

Some people ask why sweat the small stuff. But it's all stuff. A bad lineup here, a failure to sub in good defenders there and suddenly you've given away a handful of games for no good reason.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all, but since defense is the new hot button topic in baseball it just seems like we are heading towards 6 months worth of threads and comment after comment picking apart every defensive play by Cabrera and Gomes throughout each game.

Cabrera definitely hasn't looked spectacular out there and we may see Dusty start making moves like this in the future as he may not have a choice. But the guy has a nice night at the plate, the team gets a nice victory and here come the comments about the defense.

[TheNext44]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

I'm not disagreeing with you at all, but since defense is the new hot button topic in baseball it just seems like we are heading towards 6 months worth of threads and comment after comment picking apart every defensive play by Cabrera and Gomes throughout each game.

Cabrera definitely hasn't looked spectacular out there and we may see Dusty start making moves like this in the future as he may not have a choice. But the guy has a nice night at the plate, the team gets a nice victory and here come the comments about the defense.

Thing is, defense is not new. It had been the cornerstone for good teams pretty much since the game has been played professionally until the Steroid ERA. I am sure Westofyou will point out a time in 1883-7 when it wasn't, but for the most of the history of baseball, defense has been essential to winning.

For a brief time after Moneyball came out, the Saber community downplayed the value of defense, but only because it could not be quantified. That coincided with Steroids Ball, when defense mattered a little less, since so many balls were being hit over the walls.

So for a brief time until the defensive stats were invented, defense wasn't stressed as much as it used to be, but now that the stats show how important it is, and home runs are down, teams are going back to where they were before Steroids.

It's not like this is a new, strange abstract move towards over-emphasizing defense, it's just a getting back to where the game has been for over a century.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by TheNext44

Thing is, defense is not new. It had been the cornerstone for good teams pretty much since the game has been played professionally until the Steroid ERA. I am sure Westofyou will point out a time in 1883-7 when it wasn't, but for the most of the history of baseball, defense has been essential to winning.

For a brief time after Moneyball came out, the Saber community downplayed the value of defense, but only because it could not be quantified. That coincided with Steroids Ball, when defense mattered a little less, since so many balls were being hit over the walls.

So for a brief time until the defensive stats were invented, defense wasn't stressed as much as it used to be, but now that the stats show how important it is, and home runs are down, teams are going back to where they were before Steroids.

It's not like this is a new, strange abstract move towards over-emphasizing defense, it's just a getting back to where the game has been for over a century.

Right, and defense is important. But what I am saying is that a few articles were written this year about defense, a few stats were constructed and analyzed asnd now everytime a ball is hit to LF or SS there is going to be a dissection of how that fielder should have had it and how the other guy would have. I was worried that there wouldn't be a subject to beat into the ground day after day since WT was gone, but it looks like we'll be ok.

[nate]

Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine

I don't think there's any doubt Janish would have had it. Even an average defender makes that play, IMO. I hate to pile on the guy but it's amazing how far his defense has fallen. I used to love watching him play when he was with Montreal and always wanted the Reds to acquire him, but he's not half the player now that he was back then.

Honestly, there were a couple of other plays last night I think Janish would've had that Cabrera waved at.

And the two plays in left where Dickerson, 1. made the over the shoulder catch and 2. limited a sure extra base hit to a single were not something I'd expect Gomes to get.

Defense contributed a lot to last night's win.

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

Right, and defense is important. But what I am saying is that a few articles were written this year about defense, a few stats were constructed and analyzed asnd now everytime a ball is hit to LF or SS there is going to be a dissection of how that fielder should have had it and how the other guy would have. I was worried that there wouldn't be a subject to beat into the ground day after day since WT was gone, but it looks like we'll be ok.

I couldn't have said it better. Defense has become in vogue this season and it is getting a little annoying to hear all the complaints about Cabrera.

The play in question was a tough play to make. Janish may have gotten to the ball but another question is whether or not he would have been able to make an out. I also thought that when you are playing at DP depth you are a step or two in, which may have resulted in Cabrera not getting to that ball.

Good win and good night at the plate for Cabrera last night.

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by nate

Honestly, there were a couple of other plays last night I think Janish would've had that Cabrera waved at.

And the two plays in left where Dickerson, 1. made the over the shoulder catch and 2. limited a sure extra base hit to a single were not something I'd expect Gomes to get.

Defense contributed a lot to last night's win.

To play devils advocate while defense played a large role in the game Dickersons K with bases loaded and 1 out with the Reds down 1 could have been the deciding at bat in that game. It took an infield single by "No Defense" Cabrera to get a run across in that inning.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by nate

Honestly, there were a couple of other plays last night I think Janish would've had that Cabrera waved at.

And the two plays in left where Dickerson, 1. made the over the shoulder catch and 2. limited a sure extra base hit to a single were not something I'd expect Gomes to get.

Defense contributed a lot to last night's win.

I have to say, Dickerson misplayed both of those balls (especially the first one) last night. He ended up catching them but they were not as difficult as they looked.

And we can continue to drone on about the defense, but I haven't heard much about Dickerson's .257/.278/.343 line (with a .409 Babip!!!) with zero HR, zero RBI and 13/1 K/BB ratio. If his name was Taveras I am sure that his defense wouldn't matter in the slightest and we would have had 50 threads requesting his ouster. Hell, if his name were Stubbs maybe he would be getting petitioned to go down to the minors.

Let's just try and look at things in perspective. The team had a good win last night and all some people want to point out are Cabrera's defensive issues and how Dickerson made plays that Gomes never would have. Which may or may not be true. I totally get if it is a critical play and Gomes lets one clang off his glove or if Cabrera lets one go through his legs. But I also don't remember threads popping up when Dickerson fanned with the bases juiced or when Gomes took Motte out of the yard to win the game.

By the way, the Reds won last night.

[westofyou]

And we can continue to drone on about the defense, but I haven't heard much about Dickerson's .257/.278/.343 line (with a .409 Babip!!!) with zero HR, zero RBI and 13/1 K/BB ratio. If his name was Taveras I am sure that his defense wouldn't matter in the slightest and we would have had 50 threads requesting his ouster.

Etch it in stone, carry it down the mountain and show it to all... for it is the absolute truth.

[nate]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

To play devils advocate while defense played a large role in the game Dickersons K with bases loaded and 1 out with the Reds down 1 could have been the deciding at bat in that game. It took an infield single by "No Defense" Cabrera to get a run across in that inning.

We can play the "but if situation X were reversed, the outcome would've been different" on every play of the game. Cabrera didn't "win" the game with his infield single any more or any less than Jay Bruce's HR, Scott Rolen's double, Dickerson's nice defensive plays, BP's nice defensive plays, Hanigan throwing out Johnson at 3rd, and so on (the game was action packed) until we've covered every play of the game.

Team effort, team win, team game.

Cabrera's defense has not been as good as advertised so far. I don't really think there can be any disagreement with that statement. Like any measurement up to this point, that's not to say it can't change, but so far, it's not been what I expected. My concern is that he's going to live up atrocious defense of last year rather than the excellent defense of the two years prior.

I do know that defense matters as much in run prevention as pitching. I do know that "defense" is not a "new" concept and even if you and certain other posters continually poo-poo it's significance as some new-fangled "SABR" machination or "Moneyball" phenomena, the Reds most certainly do not as evidenced by their words, actions and signings over the past year.

Apologies for the logical fallacy contained in this post.

[HokieRed]

It's a bit off thread, but I'll follow up. We now have OPSes of .566 and .621 competing for the CF job. What's particularly amazing about last night's win is that we somehow won with both in the lineup at the same time.

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by nate

We can play the "but if situation X were reversed, the outcome would've been different" on every play of the game. Cabrera didn't "win" the game with his infield single any more or any less than Jay Bruce's HR, Scott Rolen's double, Dickerson's nice defensive plays, BP's nice defensive plays, Hanigan throwing out Johnson at 3rd, and so on (the game was action packed) until we've covered every play of the game.

Team effort, team win, team game.

Cabrera's defense has not been as good as advertised so far. I don't really think there can be any disagreement with that statement. Like any measurement up to this point, that's not to say it can't change, but so far, it's not been what I expected. My concern is that he's going to live up atrocious defense of last year rather than the excellent defense of the two years prior.

I do know that defense matters as much in run prevention as pitching. I do know that "defense" is not a "new" concept and even if you and certain other posters continually poo-poo it's significance as some new-fangled "SABR" machination or "Moneyball" phenomena, the Reds most certainly do not as evidenced by their words, actions and signings over the past year.

Apologies for the logical fallacy contained in this post.

I agree with pretty much everything you have said. There were a lot of big outs, big hits, and big moments in last nights game. In the game of baseball all 9 players on the diamond have a say in the game. But when you break it down even further there are several important moments that decide a game.

Defense isn't a new issue, it has been around ever since Abner Doubleday. But the focus on defense has reached an apex this off season. Many experts extolled the Red Sox signing of a 38 year old Mike Cameron. The Mariners were the trendy team this season because they had a great defense. While defense is nice, it takes balance to win baseball games. It takes defense, pitching, and offense to win baseball games. We can harp all we want about Cabrera's defense (which I agree has been less than stellar so far) but there is a reason the Reds went out and got Cabrera. They didn't feel that Janish could hit enough to warrant playing every day. This is coming from a front office who had made a commitment to pitching and defense.

We can applaud Dickerson's defensive prowess out in LF last night. Many people wanted Dickerson to start almost every game and lead off. Well as a poster above has posted he is putting up Taveras-esque numbers with a grand total of 1 walk. For some reason he has gotten a pass from many Reds fans, especially when he has struggled mightily at the beginning of the past two seasons.

I guess the main point of all my rambling is if you want to win games in baseball, get balance. Defense and Pitching alone won't win you games. If it would then then Seattle and San Francisco would be the two dominant teams in baseball.