Cliff Lee

[Eric_the_Red]

The Reds have gotta get Lee. He has his own theme song:

YouTube - Tenacious D - Lee (Live) - with Dave Grohl

[Cedric]

Originally Posted by TheNext44

I could actually argue that Haren is better than Lee.

The last three years:

Haren

xFIP 3.25
WHIP 1.117
K/9 8.7
GB/FB 1.16

Lee

xFIP 3.50
WHIP 1.135
K/9 7.1
GB/FB 1.00

This year Lee has been better, but some of that is due to his pitching in Safco, as his xFIP indicates. He is actually more of a flyball pitcher than Haren, which is why some have concern over how good he will be in GABP.

Add in that Haren is under control for an extra year, and it's really hard to defend that Lee is light years better than Haren, if he is better at all.

Dan Haren has given up 138 hits in 123 innings, terrible.

There isn't a number in the world that shows Dan Haren is even remotely in the same league as Cliff Lee right now.

[traderumor]

Originally Posted by kbrake

Not sure how people are worried about how Lee would hold up in GABP but think Haren is a good idea...I just don't get it.

You just stated a strawman. It isn't a comparison of Lee vs. Haren, it is the entire picture of what it would cost to get one vs. the other and the chance that either would improve the Reds chances of the postseason for this year and beyond.

The folks liking the Haren idea do not dismiss him for a slow start to this season (he just shut down the Cards in a recent start btw), like that he has a reasonable contract for two more years, and that he will not demand as much in a package. Throw in Drew and it is the type of deal that could make folks forget the names of the prospects.

[kbrake]

So Haren and Drew will cost less than Lee? I don't get that. I understand that its total package Lee vs Haren but I don't think Haren will be much cheaper if any and I didn't see him carve up the Yankees in hitters parks last postseason.

[cincrazy]

Originally Posted by KoryMac5

Look at Lee's numbers In GABP before selling the farm to get him, 4.91 ERA over 5 starts.

But how many of those starts occured during Lee's peak as a player during the last few years?

I think reading too much into Lee coming to GABP is silly. The guy dominated in Citizen's Bank last year, the ballpark isn't going to be a factor.

I can understand the argument made about prospects, and I can also understand the argument about targeting Dan Haren. But the ballpark argument doesn't stand on solid ground, IMO.

Either way, it's exciting. We're talking about ways this team can improve its stock for this yea to bolster its postseason chances, instead of talking about ways to help for the future .

[Cyclone792]

Alonso + Francisco + another piece of lesser value = do it.

I'm lukewarm on Mesoraco, and that'd be a pretty big price to pay if he was the third piece but I'd probably live with it.

As far as I'm concerned, so long as Alonso is unable to play the outfield, he should be prime trade bait. Additionally, so long as Juan Francisco fails to comprehend what ball four is, I have very little use for him. Lottery ticket players - he's a new version of WMP - are guys I'm just not very interested in. Let Seattle figure out if Francisco will eventually figure out what pitches not to swing at.

Travis Wood is the one rumored Reds prospect that I'd like to keep, if at all possible. If he was the third piece, then Cliff Lee would probably have to win Games 1/4/7 in the World Series for me to be content.

[Reds Freak]

34 pages on Cliff Lee? This discussion is starting to remind me of the Erik Bedard threads from a few years ago...

[lollipopcurve]

Alonso + Francisco + another piece of lesser value = do it.

Too much. The Reds don't have much power in the minors after these two. If Votto or Bruce or Rolen goes down, you need a stick behind them -- whether it's this year or beyond.

[dunner13]

Everyone is pretty much assuming that lee will just be a rental. But if Lee helps us get deep into the playoffs and the reds and fans really reach out to him I would have to think theres a chance he would stay. With Harang and Arroyos contracts done after this year and Cast probably being willing to raise the payroll if we make the playoffs we could possibly offer Lee the 18-20 mill a year he wants. I understand that the most likely scenario is that he signs with the yankees in the offseason but I would have to think we could at least try to sign him. Which would make giving up good prospects for him much easier to swallow.

[Dan]

Originally Posted by Cyclone792

Alonso + Francisco + another piece of lesser value = do it.

I'm lukewarm on Mesoraco, and that'd be a pretty big price to pay if he was the third piece but I'd probably live with it.

As far as I'm concerned, so long as Alonso is unable to play the outfield, he should be prime trade bait. Additionally, so long as Juan Francisco fails to comprehend what ball four is, I have very little use for him. Lottery ticket players - he's a new version of WMP - are guys I'm just not very interested in. Let Seattle figure out if Francisco will eventually figure out what pitches not to swing at.

Travis Wood is the one rumored Reds prospect that I'd like to keep, if at all possible. If he was the third piece, then Cliff Lee would probably have to win Games 1/4/7 in the World Series for me to be content.

I would do Alonso-Francisco-Wood for Lee in about 12.5 seconds.

I wonder if they'd do Mez-Francisco-Wood instead.

BTW, Wood will have to be a part of this. He's our best LH prospect and Seattle is going to want at least 1 ML ready pitcher.

[lollipopcurve]

I would do Alonso-Francisco-Wood for Lee in about 12.5 seconds.

Crazy.

There are lots of ways to improve the team. Throwing 3 of your top 5/6 prospects (in a good system) at a two-month rental is a good way to blow up a plan to build a team that competes for an extended window of time.

[savafan]

Could the Reds beat a package for Lee that includes B.J. Upton?

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/rumors/p...urn=mlb,254202

[Plus Plus]

Originally Posted by savafan

Could the Reds beat a package for Lee that includes B.J. Upton?

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/rumors/p...urn=mlb,254202

Easily. "Bossman Junior" Upton is one of the most overhyped, underproducing players in MLB today. He hasn't come near a .800 ops in any of the last three seasons, including a whopping .686 last year and .711 this year. With his current payscale and arb status, I wouldn't be surprised if Heisey had similar or greater value right now.

[Dan]

Originally Posted by lollipopcurve

Crazy.

There are lots of ways to improve the team. Throwing 3 of your top 5/6 prospects (in a good system) at a two-month rental is a good way to blow up a plan to build a team that competes for an extended window of time.

Do you want to compete, or do you want to win the World Series? I think Lee takes us to that level this year.

[Cyclone792]

Originally Posted by lollipopcurve

Too much. The Reds don't have much power in the minors after these two. If Votto or Bruce or Rolen goes down, you need a stick behind them -- whether it's this year or beyond.

I think you may be valuing those guys a bit more than they're worth. I've been less than impressed with the performances of both Alonso and Francisco, and I'm not very high on their long-term potential.

It's an interesting twist of events; the Reds haven't been able to develop pitching for well ... eternity. But suddenly now I'm more confident in their pitching prospects than their hitting prospects.