2010 Indianapolis Colts

[RedsBaron]

Originally Posted by redsfanmia

John Madden was 9-7 in the playoffs
Don Shula was 19-17 in the playoffs
Tom Landry was 20-16 in the playoffs
Bill Parcells was 11-8 in the playoffs
Paul Brown was 9-8 in the play offs.

Barely over .500% in the play-offs, are they just average coaches because of their average playoff records?

Sid Gillman was a great innovator who went 1-5 in postseason play.
Don Coryell was another innovator: 3-6 in the postseason.
George Allen went 2-7.
Bud Grant coached the Vikings to four Super Bowls, but lost all four and went 10-12 in the postseason.
Bill Cowher is apparently in demand as a coach but was only 12-9 in the postseason.
Dick Vermeil coached two Super Bowl teams and won one, but was only 6-5 overall in postseason play.

[Revering4Blue]

You can put blame for this one squarely on coach

Colts coach Jim Caldwell should be commended for getting his team into the playoffs with 18 players, including stars tight end Dallas Clark, safety Bob Sanders, receiver Austin Collie and cornerback Kelvin Hayden on season-ending injured reserve, and sometimes spotty play from quarterback Peyton Manning.

But that’s all the praise Caldwell will get from this corner, and all he should get for a long time.

The Colts’ 17-16 loss to the New York Jets in Saturday’s wild-card playoff game at Lucas Oil Stadium is squarely on the coach’s shoulders.

Read on..

http://www.journalgazette.net/articl.../1029/SPORTS02

[redsfanmia]

Originally Posted by Razor Shines

Was it Manning or the fact that they've been one of the top franchises in football? I remember those days when no one went to the games as well but the Colts mostly sucked. The one year when the Colts made that deep playoff run with Harbaugh everybody was a Colts fan. I remember going to the airport with my parents when the team arrived home from KC. It was packed with people.

If they had drafted Leaf and continued to suck then yeah they may have moved.

I think that yes Manning is a HUGE part of the success they've had but I think it's the success more than Manning that has brought the fans in.

Bottom line is the Colts are good because of Manning, you put Carson Palmer (an NFL average quarterback) on this team and they go 3-13 or 4-12.

The Colts are successful mainly because of Manning period. If Peyton Manning was not playing for the Colts there is no way the city builds that monstrosity of a stadium.

[redsfanmia]

Originally Posted by RedsBaron

Sid Gillman was a great innovator who went 1-5 in postseason play.
Don Coryell was another innovator: 3-6 in the postseason.
George Allen went 2-7.
Bud Grant coached the Vikings to four Super Bowls, but lost all four and went 10-12 in the postseason.
Bill Cowher is apparently in demand as a coach but was only 12-9 in the postseason.
Dick Vermeil coached two Super Bowl teams and won one, but was only 6-5 overall in postseason play.

Add Marty Shottenheimer to that list as well, success in the playoffs has alot of luck involved.

[Razor Shines]

Originally Posted by redsfanmia

Bottom line is the Colts are good because of Manning, you put Carson Palmer (an NFL average quarterback) on this team and they go 3-13 or 4-12.

The Colts are successful mainly because of Manning period. If Peyton Manning was not playing for the Colts there is no way the city builds that monstrosity of a stadium.

Yeah, that's kind of what I was saying too.

My point is that fans are filling up the stadium because they are successful. You were saying that once Manning is gone the stadium will be empty. I agree if the Colts suck again...it is possible for them to continue to be successful after Manning.

[redsfanmia]

Originally Posted by Razor Shines

Yeah, that's kind of what I was saying too.

My point is that fans are filling up the stadium because they are successful. You were saying that once Manning is gone the stadium will be empty. I agree if the Colts suck again...it is possible for them to continue to be successful after Manning.

True and hopefully they will be successful after he leaves but Manning has pretty much changed Indiana from a basketball crazy state to a football crazy state. I think it is all on Manning, the success of the Colts is squarely on Manning's arm and mind. There is not one player in the NFL right now and possibly the history of the NFL who determines his teams success more than Manning.

Tom Brady was out for a season and his team went 11-5, Ben R was suspended for the first 4 games of the season and the Steelers went 3-1. If Manning went down I seriously wonder if the Colts could win more than 2 games and if Curtis Painter plays I doubt they could win 1 game.

[Hoosier Red]

Originally Posted by redsfanmia

I agree that Colts fanbase is sensitive, the problem with the fanbase is that once Manning is gone there will be an abundance of empty seats in that gigantic barn they call a stadium and a ton of Colts stuff at Goodwill. There were not many Colts fans in 1997 but yet in 1999 you could not get a seat.

Who cares if Manning the greatest quarterback in the league, he is pretty damn good, an all time great.

I think it's hard to judge the Colts fan base by what happened before Manning. They were a new team, most fans here were essentially Lions/Bears/Bengals/Browns fans and the Colts were awful. I often hear Pittsburgh fans talk about how the waiting list for the Steelers is like 90 years, but the Steelers have had back to back losing seasons like once in the Super Bowl era. You don't have to be a die hard guy to keep your Steelers tickets.

The Manning era coincided with the first generation of fans who grew up with a team always being in Indianapolis. My guess is you'll see some drop off, but not a lot once he retires, that is provided the Colts remain relevant.

[George Anderson]

You gotta remember 10 years ago this state was Pacer crazy and the Colts were an after thought. Now it is vice versa. Before the Pacers had their run in the early 90's it was all Bobby Knight and IU and now Tom Crean and IU are pretty much back page news. My point is this state is quick to jump on the band wagon and quick to jump off of it. We really don't have a huge throng of die hard fans of any of our teams like the Steelers, Cowboys or sadly like the Cubbies have.

Also no doubt Lucas Oil is the house that Manning built. If Polian had drafted Ryan Leaf the Colts would be in LA.

[HoosierRedsFan]

Originally Posted by Eric_the_Red

I think the team overachieved in making the playoffs, not just Caldwell. I challenge anyone to name a team that could lose 10 defensive players to IR, their all-pro TE for most of the season, and the #1 RB for half the year (among many other injuries) and still make the playoffs.

I honestly felt at that time if they made the playoffs it would be a minor miracle, and it was. I think the fans reaction to Caldwell stems from how he did his best to blow the playoff game. Sometimes it is hard to separate emotion and reasonable analysis (see the comments following the Reds' playoff losses for evidence of this).

Is Peyton washed up? Hardly. Are there 10 QBs better than him in the NFL? Absolutely not. Will his starts start to decline every year for the rest of his career? Entirely possible. But I would argue that he is just as likely to win another MVP next season.

Is Caldwell a bad coach? No. Is he the coach I would like for the Colts? No

Originally Posted by Razor Shines

I pretty much agree with all of this.

Also, I defended Caldwell for most of the season, but I really do think he made some mistakes in that playoff game that were pretty bad.

Some of us Colts fans reaction stems from his blunders in the Super Bowl. Remember the drive before the half? Colts get the ball, run it three straight times, don’t pick up the first down, turned the ball over on downs to the Saints, Saints get in field goal range and get three points. It seemed to me that Caldwell wasn’t interested in trying to get points or at the minimum get a first down, run the clock to zero and go to halftime. Then there was letting Matt Stover attempt a 51 yard field goal when he hadn’t made anything, or attempted anything past 45 yards. Instead of punting and pinning the Saints deep in their own territory he lets Stover kick the field goal, which he misses badly and gives the Saints great field position who then march done the field and score a touchdown. Also this year (just as in the Jets playoff game) Caldwell takes a time out in the Jacksonville game, giving the Jags an extra time out (as they didn’t have any at the time) giving the Jags extra time to get in field goal range (which they did) and Scobee hits the 59 yard game winner. I really believe Jacksonville was content with just going to OT but once Caldwell gave them extra time, game over! I really believe Caldwell needs to go to Clock Management 101…

Is Manning washed up? No. Is Manning going to the HOF, Yes. Did Manning help save this franchise, Yes. Does this mean Manning shouldn’t get criticism, NO. Manning has done a lot of great things both for the franchise and for the community but he has also had some playoffs blunders and don’t understand why some people get upset when you bring them up.

Most of my criticism has more to do with Coaching/Scheme/Polian

Scheme: Remember we want to be smaller and faster on defense (Do what we do)…how has that worked out the past several years? Seems to me we can’t stop run. That’s been an ongoing issue for years. I would think the Colts would had addressed that by now. I almost forget, it doesn’t need fixing “We just need to play better” We have corners that play 8 yards off the receiver, DT’s the size of LB’s that tend to get ran over, special teams is just atrocious. You can hide some of those issues when you are player weaker teams but when you play better teams (playoffs) they will exploit that. Just an opinion and I could be wrong but it seems to me the league has figured out the Cover 2 defense. I thing that has always bothered me is people who say “The Colts give up very few passing touchdowns”, I always reply with ‘Why should teams pass when they know they can run it down our throats?”

One of the things that has surprised me is after the Super Bowl loss, Polian blamed the OL, (I agree the OL needs fixing but I don’t think they were to blame for the loss) I thought played pretty well in that game…but since Polian thought the OL played terrible, what did he do to address it….First pick in the draft….DE…second pick…LB, it wasn’t until the 4th round that Polian drafted someone for the OL, and I might mention he released Ryan Lilja (who had a pretty good year for KC) and then signed Adam Terry (who he released) and Andy Alleman (who he also released) Polian I thought had had also been good at drafting but the past few years have left me wondering. For example drafted Addai in the first round in 06 and then in 09 drafts another RB in the first round..Also drafting Gonzalez in the first round when I think there where bigger needs.

[HoosierRedsFan]

Originally Posted by Hoosier Red

I think it's hard to judge the Colts fan base by what happened before Manning. They were a new team, most fans here were essentially Lions/Bears/Bengals/Browns fans and the Colts were awful. I often hear Pittsburgh fans talk about how the waiting list for the Steelers is like 90 years, but the Steelers have had back to back losing seasons like once in the Super Bowl era. You don't have to be a die hard guy to keep your Steelers tickets.

The Manning era coincided with the first generation of fans who grew up with a team always being in Indianapolis. My guess is you'll see some drop off, but not a lot once he retires, that is provided the Colts remain relevant.

I agree with this...I think anytime a team has been good for a while then goes into a funk you are going to have some bandwagon fans jump off BUT….For example, my dad was raised in central Indiana without a pro team and he became a Bears fan. Just because Indy got a team, he didn't change his alliance to the Colts (Super Bowl 41 was fun )..He roots for the Colts when the Bears aren’t involved but he is still a Bears fan first. Now we have a generation (I am 34 so all I can remember is the Colts always being here) who is now raising another generation of Colts fans. I grew up in Anderson (where the Colts held training camp the first 13 or 14 years they were here, just returned back this past summer) and I can remember hanging out at training camp as a kid..I’ve always been a Colts fan and will always be a Colts fan.

[kaldaniels]

Originally Posted by Razor Shines

Seems like you've taken opportunities to make yourself look good.

You said nothing about Manning being bad 9 or so games in, while he was having a great season.

He hits a bad stretch and you're in here saying how you've thought he was 9th best coming into the season.

Peyton gets back on track plays well for the last 4 games and nothing.

Colts lose in the first round...guess who's back? And telling us how sensitive we are. Seems pretty opportunistic.

Honestly, I haven't minded anything you said (I think you're mostly wrong) except the "sensitive" thing. I don't see how just arguing different opinions makes one "sensitive". Maybe it's just me, but I find it kind of annoying when someone uses that in an argument. No one says to you and Edabbs "Oh, you Jocketty guys are so sensitive." And if they did it would be just as annoying.

Sorry if my timing seems opportunistic. Like I said, the first game Manning had after my remarks that caused a stir, he did not have a good game...however I refrained from jumping in b/c I made a conscious decision not to jump in the rest of this season, as my remark was concerning who I wanted for the 2011 season. We will see how that plays out, and you know what, I could be wrong. I'm a reasonable guy and my rankings of QBs are always going to be fluid. If you must know, I'd bump Manning back above Vick (injury concern) and Cassell (just not the game manager I thought he was, a work in progress though).

Yeah calling Colts fans sensitive is bound to strike a nerve. But look at the statements that get you guys riled up. (I completely understand you getting worked up by my Manning opinion...I don't hold that against you)

1) The Colts are no longer top contenders

2) Peyton Manning is to blame for the Superbowl Pick 6 (If you want to split blame between Manning and Wayne, sure...but it seems as if you absolve Peyton of any responsibility)

3) Tony Dungy should have had better results in the playoffs.

When "you guys" respond to stuff like that, there is no remark like "I see what you are saying, but...." It is just total knee jerk denial and outrage for lack of a better word. No offense meant by any of this.

[Hoosier Red]

Originally Posted by George Anderson

You gotta remember 10 years ago this state was Pacer crazy and the Colts were an after thought. Now it is vice versa. Before the Pacers had their run in the early 90's it was all Bobby Knight and IU and now Tom Crean and IU are pretty much back page news. My point is this state is quick to jump on the band wagon and quick to jump off of it. We really don't have a huge throng of die hard fans of any of our teams like the Steelers, Cowboys or sadly like the Cubbies have.

Also no doubt Lucas Oil is the house that Manning built. If Polian had drafted Ryan Leaf the Colts would be in LA.

It's all relative. The Pacers had some additional reasons behind their declining popularity.
Tom Crean and IU may play like back page news, but they still draw better than all but about 10 schools in the nation-2nd in Big 10 in attendance behind tOSU who has a larger arena- and they still get a lot of eyes on them around the state.

As I said, if the Colts revert back to a number of seasons of awful play like they had before Manning arrived, I agree that they will see the attendance suffer greatly. However assuming they go back to being just an ordinary NFL team with a playoff appearance every few years to keep people interested, my guess is they'll pretty much always sell out.

[Razor Shines]

Originally Posted by kaldaniels

Sorry if my timing seems opportunistic. Like I said, the first game Manning had after my remarks that caused a stir, he did not have a good game...however I refrained from jumping in b/c I made a conscious decision not to jump in the rest of this season, as my remark was concerning who I wanted for the 2011 season. We will see how that plays out, and you know what, I could be wrong. I'm a reasonable guy and my rankings of QBs are always going to be fluid. If you must know, I'd bump Manning back above Vick (injury concern) and Cassell (just not the game manager I thought he was, a work in progress though).

Yeah calling Colts fans sensitive is bound to strike a nerve. But look at the statements that get you guys riled up. (I completely understand you getting worked up by my Manning opinion...I don't hold that against you)

1) The Colts are no longer top contenders

2) Peyton Manning is to blame for the Superbowl Pick 6 (If you want to split blame between Manning and Wayne, sure...but it seems as if you absolve Peyton of any responsibility)

3) Tony Dungy should have had better results in the playoffs.

When "you guys" respond to stuff like that, there is no remark like "I see what you are saying, but...." It is just total knee jerk denial and outrage for lack of a better word. No offense meant by any of this.

How is arguing a point getting "riled up"? So if I don't agree with you and just say nothing than I'm not sensitive, but if I express my disagreement I'm "sensitive" or "riled up".....Ok, I'll remember that for other threads when you disagree with someone.

I just thinking it's really annoying to say that someone who disagrees with you is "sensitive" or "riled up", it's pretty condescending. I take it as: "Well of course I'm right so if anyone disagrees with me it has to just be an emotional reaction."

I never absolved Peyton of anything in the Super Bowl. That's putting words in my mouth. I simply said it wasn't a "choke job" as you put it. Wayne ran one route Peyton threw to another. I have said in their type of offense those miscues are going to happen and you just have to hope the ball falls incomplete. If you feel the need to place the blame squarely on Peyton for that then fine.

As for Dungy, I never said he was the greatest coach ever or anything. I have said that I would take Belichick over him, but other than that I probably like Dungy as much as or more than current NFL coaches. Maybe I'd put Cowher a little ahead of him but Tomlin has been nearly as good as Cowher. So I kinda think Dungy could go there with the talent they have on the Oline and the defense and be pretty successful too. But if you like both Cowher and Tomlin better than Dungy I probably wouldn't argue against it.

I do think a healthy Colts team is a top contender next season. I really can't see how they wouldn't be. Even if Manning is a tick down from where he was the rest of the team is still pretty young. If they have a decent draft and off season they'll be right back with a 1st round bye next year.

[Eric_the_Red]

Originally Posted by kaldaniels

Sorry if my timing seems opportunistic. Like I said, the first game Manning had after my remarks that caused a stir, he did not have a good game...however I refrained from jumping in b/c I made a conscious decision not to jump in the rest of this season, as my remark was concerning who I wanted for the 2011 season. We will see how that plays out, and you know what, I could be wrong. I'm a reasonable guy and my rankings of QBs are always going to be fluid. If you must know, I'd bump Manning back above Vick (injury concern) and Cassell (just not the game manager I thought he was, a work in progress though).

Yeah calling Colts fans sensitive is bound to strike a nerve. But look at the statements that get you guys riled up. (I completely understand you getting worked up by my Manning opinion...I don't hold that against you)

1) The Colts are no longer top contenders

2) Peyton Manning is to blame for the Superbowl Pick 6 (If you want to split blame between Manning and Wayne, sure...but it seems as if you absolve Peyton of any responsibility)

3) Tony Dungy should have had better results in the playoffs.

When "you guys" respond to stuff like that, there is no remark like "I see what you are saying, but...." It is just total knee jerk denial and outrage for lack of a better word. No offense meant by any of this.

I hope I don't come across as overly sensitive or with outrage. If so, I apologize.

I think you constructed your argument well, and truly believe what you are espousing. I obviously disagree with your stance on Manning, but that'll happen with opinions.

As to your point #1, I have to disagree. Before the season the Colts had the best odds of reaching the Super Bowl. Obviously the injuries crushed that chance. And yes, at the end of the year they were not top contenders. I don't think you'll find a Colts fan here that will disagree with that point. However, barring injury, if the team can field the support around Manning that they have in previous years, they will be top contenders. In fact, I think they will be major sleepers next year, as a lot of other teams/experts may undervalue them based on this season. (They have a tough schedule next year, but I still expect 11 wins or so.)

Point #2- Peyton takes some of the blame, but from what I've read the majority must go to Wayne for running an incorrect route. If the choice is between guessing if Manning threw a terrible pass or a receiver ran an inprecise route, I'll give the ultra-hard working Manning the benefit of the doubt every time. Regardless, it is history. There were a number of bad decisions (many/most by Caldwell) that cost the Colts the Super Bowl.

Point #3- Judging a coach, or QB, by their playoff W/L record is foolish, IMO. Take a look through this thread and compare some of the playoff records of other coaches that are considered legendary. To put the argument in a sabremetric frame, it would be akin to judging a pitcher by his W/L record and hitters by their RBI numbers. Many stats are team dependent, and that fact is amplified even more in football than baseball. There are just too many "moving pieces" on both sides of the ball to pin a win or loss on the same player/coach consistently.

[kaldaniels]

Perfectly fair take Eric.

Razor, I'm concerned this has taken a personal turn...as apparently I am going to be a marked man in other threads. I wondered about that when you made your "Jocketty guy" (which I really am not...I like what he has done though) remark lumping me with Eddabbs...Which I found strange. I harbor no hard feelings over this myself.

I guess it is just the respect of debate...I acknowledge and understand where you are coming from...but I disagree. I just sense that feeling is not reciprocal.

I do think Peyton choked in the SB. It's ok to say that about a team you like..i think the Reds choked in the playoffs...life goes on.