Reds @ Dodgers 6-15

[brm7675]

Originally Posted by Kingspoint

You need to look at more stats.

Baseball players consistently pitched 400-500 innings during a season for decades before pitchers began being specialists in the late-60's/early '70's.

It's just a matter of each individual, and what kind of background that person had growing up, along with what type of pitches they throw. Wood, for example, is a type of pitcher who can go deep into games because he's effective with his pitches, usually. He's struggled some this year, but not if you look at his starts since May.

June 15th, 6IP, 1ER, 114 pitches
June 10th, 8IP, 2ER, 109 pitches
June 5th, 4.2IP, 8ER, 106 pitches
May 30th, 6IP, 3ER, 95 pitches
May 25th, 6IP, 3ER, 102 pitches
May 20th, 5.1IP, 4ER, 94 pitches
May 15th, 6IP, 2ER, 103 pitches
May 9th, 6.2IP, 0ER, 106 pitches
May 4th, 6IP, 2ER, 104 pitches.

Now, if you look at those outings, Baker could have used Wood for another batter or two, or three for almost all of those starts. But, he was trying to stretch out Wood's arm, while also trying to talk to him about being more efficient and that going only 6 Innings isn't going to get it done, no matter how few of runs he's giving up. That's now 6 times in his last 9 starts that he's given up 3ER or less while not reaching the 7th inning, and only one time going past the 6th inning. By Baker sending a message to him to go out there and finish the 6th inning, it's putting in his mind that he's got to be more efficient so that he can complete 7 or 8 innings more often. He's got to do that if this bullpen is going to have anything left come August, not to mention September and October.

There won't be any ill effect on Wood of him throwing 114 pitches today. He'll continue to put up similar numbers to what you see above, except you're going to start seeing him going more than 6.0 IP once every five starts.

And you are setting him for arm issues with that philosophy. You don't "stretch" out a pitchers arm. Again the human body was not ment to throw the way major league pitchers do. If pitch counts didn't matter they wouldn't keep them. You let Wood pitch later into games if he has a decent pitch count. If his count is nearing around 100 come the 5th, you pull him and hope next time out he's better. To many times Dusty has left starters in for reason such as you claim and it has cost us games. A good manager knows when his starting pitcher has it and doesn't have it. The ONLY reason Dusty let him go out for the 6th was because we had a 6 run lead. If we had been behind or a close game he gets pulled. That is a bad way to manage.

[Kingspoint]

Originally Posted by brm7675

Ah...could it be the manager has no clue what he is doing when it comes to managing his bullpen?

I don't believe so. Not from what I've seen from Baker the last two seasons, although Baker did overuse Cordero and Masset last year leading to their poor end-of-season efforts. I think Baker is learning a lot from Walt Jockety these last two seasons about exactly what you're talking about. I've seen the changes.

As far as Bray goes, again, I have to say that there must be a callup coming that he's aware of. Right now, Bray is on an every other day workload, unless there's an emergency need. Bray won't pitch tomorrow unless it's absolutely necessary. Maybe Toronto doesn't have any fearsome Left-handers to have to worry about. I'll have to look it up.

OK, I looked it up. 1B Adam Lind is tearing it up as a Left-Hander, so Bray might be needed in a situation where he faces Lind. Hopefully, we get a huge lead and Bray won't have to be used. Corey Patterson is the starting left-fielder. They can use anyone to pitch to him.

[Kingspoint]

Originally Posted by brm7675

And you are setting him for arm issues with that philosophy. You don't "stretch" out a pitchers arm. Again the human body was not ment to throw the way major league pitchers do. If pitch counts didn't matter they wouldn't keep them. You let Wood pitch later into games if he has a decent pitch count. If his count is nearing around 100 come the 5th, you pull him and hope next time out he's better. To many times Dusty has left starters in for reason such as you claim and it has cost us games. A good manager knows when his starting pitcher has it and doesn't have it. The ONLY reason Dusty let him go out for the 6th was because we had a 6 run lead. If we had been behind or a close game he gets pulled. That is a bad way to manage.

You're undervaluing the effectiveness of individual pitchers from pitches 90-120. You're also undervaluing the necessity that a bullpen must remain fresh to be effective. You philosophy doesn't work with a 25-man roster. There aren't enough arms to cover the innings if you keep starting pitchers down to the number of pitches that you want them to pitch.

[Kingspoint]

Originally Posted by brm7675

Sorry but Nolan was either:

A) A freak of nature
B) or on something

Neither. He was a farmer.

Kids who worked during their childhood had the capacity to go 300-400-500 innings per season. That's why so few can do it now...they didn't work every day of their childhood doing manual labor like kids did from before 1950.

[Kingspoint]

Originally Posted by Redeye fly

I'm hoping that this road trip lights a fire under these guys to where they can play at least .550 baseball the rest of the way. That would put them around 88 wins.

Regarding the "Golf Thread", they are currently at "3-Over", which is 87 Wins. With 7 games gone on this current hole (hole #8) with two games left, they've already guaranteed themselves a PAR. One win from Toronto and they have a BIRDIE on #8. A two-game sweep of the Blue Jays and they get an EAGLE on #8 putting them at 1-OVER on pace for 89 Wins.

[brm7675]

Originally Posted by Kingspoint

You're undervaluing the effectiveness of individual pitchers from pitches 90-120. You're also undervaluing the necessity that a bullpen must remain fresh to be effective. You philosophy doesn't work with a 25-man roster. There aren't enough arms to cover the innings if you keep starting pitchers down to the number of pitches that you want them to pitch.

You are correct, that is why the starters need to increase their effectiveness, not increase the number of pitches they throw. A good starting pitcher can go 6-7 innings and remain near or under 100 pitches. Bad pitchers struggle with that. Forcing a struggling pitcher to pitch more doesn't help, it only harms. Right now Wood is struggling and will be in Louisville once Homer returns, hopefully there is can work on his ability to get batters out with fewer pitches.

[brm7675]

Originally Posted by Kingspoint

I don't believe so. Not from what I've seen from Baker the last two seasons, although Baker did overuse Cordero and Masset last year leading to their poor end-of-season efforts. I think Baker is learning a lot from Walt Jockety these last two seasons about exactly what you're talking about. I've seen the changes.

As far as Bray goes, again, I have to say that there must be a callup coming that he's aware of. Right now, Bray is on an every other day workload, unless there's an emergency need. Bray won't pitch tomorrow unless it's absolutely necessary. Maybe Toronto doesn't have any fearsome Left-handers to have to worry about. I'll have to look it up.

OK, I looked it up. 1B Adam Lind is tearing it up as a Left-Hander, so Bray might be needed in a situation where he faces Lind. Hopefully, we get a huge lead and Bray won't have to be used. Corey Patterson is the starting left-fielder. They can use anyone to pitch to him.

Instead of using Bray today, why not let Horst pitch? He's a lefty and could use some work? Dusty has a horrible pattern with falling in love with certain guys and ignoring others (See owings last year) and that is harmful to the team both from a pitching and position player standpoint.

[Kingspoint]

Originally Posted by brm7675

Instead of using Bray today, why not let Horst pitch? He's a lefty and could use some work? Dusty has a horrible pattern with falling in love with certain guys and ignoring others (See owings last year) and that is harmful to the team both from a pitching and position player standpoint.

I agree with you here on all points. No need to use Bray with a 5-run lead in the 8th inning. However, it was the REDS, just 11 days ago, that blew a 5-run, 8th-inning lead to this very same team, the Dodgers. Can't fault Baker for putting the pedal to the metal and making sure we sweep these guys. The positive Karma and atmosphere that the clubhouse will get from having swept these guys on the trip home tonight is worth the risk of using Bray instead of Horst. Plus Horst gave up 3 hits and 3 walks in just 1.2 IP vs the Dodgers the last time he faced them 10 days ago.

[DGullett35]

Hopefully we can keep the momentum going this weekend vs. the Jays. There alot like the Dodgers but IMO the Jays don't have as good of a rotation but they can score some runs

[Kingspoint]

Originally Posted by DGullett35

Hopefully we can keep the momentum going this weekend vs. the Jays. There alot like the Dodgers but IMO the Jays don't have as good of a rotation but they can score some runs

They are a dominant right-handed hitting club, so we get a break with Wood having just pitched. We should sweep the two-game series.

[brm7675]

Originally Posted by Kingspoint

I agree with you here on all points. No need to use Bray with a 5-run lead in the 8th inning. However, it was the REDS, just 11 days ago, that blew a 5-run, 8th-inning lead to this very same team, the Dodgers. Can't fault Baker for putting the pedal to the metal and making sure we sweep these guys. The positive Karma and atmosphere that the clubhouse will get from having swept these guys on the trip home tonight is worth the risk of using Bray instead of Horst. Plus Horst gave up 3 hits and 3 walks in just 1.2 IP vs the Dodgers the last time he faced them 10 days ago.

Horst has pitched well you have a 6 run lead...why waste Bray? Simple Dusty just doesn't grasp things...

[Reds]

I read the thread. Wood throwing 114.. don't care.

this sweep for was america.

congrats to Canadians too, redszone doesn't have your flag though.

and I'd like to thank for his service today