2011 Bengals Discussion

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by MWM

There are plenty of people who agree with me. And the whole "he signed a contract and should honor it" doesn't hold water with me because NFL teams, including the Bengals, don't do it all the time. If a player doesn't perform, their contract is not honored, so I'm not going to think Carson had some deficiency of character for deciding the Bengals didn't live up to what they said they were going to do, so him not wanting to be stuck.

Actually Mike Brown did honor his contract even though his play deteriorated from what it was when he signed the contract. If anything the team babied him. They gave Carson TO (on request from Palmer), Gresham, Shipley and even his brother. They centered the team around him. Now we find out that Carson's quitting on the team was premeditated, calculated and by his own admission, selfish

[fearofpopvol1]

Originally Posted by MWM

There are plenty of people who agree with me. And the whole "he signed a contract and should honor it" doesn't hold water with me because NFL teams, including the Bengals, don't do it all the time. If a player doesn't perform, their contract is not honored, so I'm not going to think Carson had some deficiency of character for deciding the Bengals didn't live up to what they said they were going to do, so him not wanting to be stuck.

NFL teams cut players who are underperforming or who aren't playing to their worth. Say what you will about that system, but Carson wasn't cut or in danger of being cut. He very easily could have let his teammates and the fans down and put them in a rough spot. It worked out because of Dalton and the Raiders overpaying, but it doesn't make Carson a better person. If he had filed his papers for retirement and stuck with it, that'd be a different story.

[Brutus]

Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1

NFL teams cut players who are underperforming or who aren't playing to their worth. Say what you will about that system, but Carson wasn't cut or in danger of being cut. He very easily could have let his teammates and the fans down and put them in a rough spot. It worked out because of Dalton and the Raiders overpaying, but it doesn't make Carson a better person. If he had filed his papers for retirement and stuck with it, that'd be a different story.

If teams can cut players who are under-performing, should it be a problem for players to want to cut their teams who are under-performing?

Just food for thought.

[MWM]

Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp

If teams can cut players who are under-performing, should it be a problem for players to want to cut their teams who are under-performing?

That's really the point I was making that's being missed. If people think it's fine to cut players who are under-performing, then the "he signed a contract and should live up to it" argument goes out the window. The contracts players sign never say they have to play well. The contract says they are to play football for that team for a salary over a set period of time. So as long as a player is showing up to practice and the games, they are keeping their end of the contract. Why should owners not have to stick to theirs?

If sticking to a contract that was signed was so important, then it should be important all the time for all sides.

[Stray]

Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp

If teams can cut players who are under-performing, should it be a problem for players to want to cut their teams who are under-performing?

Just food for thought.

Mike is the man signing their paychecks. I don't see a problem with him having the power in a situation like that. Who Carson really quit on was the fanbase, and that is unforgivable.

[fearofpopvol1]

Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp

If teams can cut players who are under-performing, should it be a problem for players to want to cut their teams who are under-performing?

Just food for thought.

I think the lopsided rule is dumb, but that's a NFL union question.

As another poster pointed out, Carson quit on the fanbase, which is harder to forgive. A player quitting on his team is never a good thing. Some of us are just tired of diva sports players. Maybe I'm old school, but how many players quit on their teams in the 60s or 70s the way that Carson did on the Bengals?

But moreover, if Carson kept his word and filed his retirement papers, I think you'd hear less people up in arms.

[CTA513]

He had no reason to file retirement papers since he wanted to be traded and doesn't need the benefits.

Marvin and Bengals should be happy he kept quite and didn't run his mouth like #85 did when he wanted to be traded.
Then again all it took was tweeting, free dinners and movies to buy back about 70% of the fan base after he crapped all over them.

[MWM]

This whole quitting on the fanbase is rubbish. Mike Brown can't quit on the fanbase because he never started to begin with. He's never cared one iota about the Bengals fanbase and never will. His entire tenure running the bengals has been all about him and his selfishness. Carson cared more about the fanbase last year than Mikey boy ever has. If it's about the fanbase, the there's only one person to point a finger at.

[Orenda]

in my opinion, this deal doesnt get done without the new rookie wage scale for draft picks. that is just how mike brown operates, remember the chad offers that he passed on? i respect the way carson has handled it, he didnt want to be a part of the organization and he stuck to his guns. he hasnt been retaliating through the media and dragging marvin and mike through the mud. he has taken ownership of his actions and now he is getting ripped by cincy. that pretty much says it all to me.

[Redhook]

Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1

Carson quit on the fanbase, which is harder to forgive.

Please. Carson did not quit the fan base. He quit Mike Brown and I don't blame him one bit. I'm a lifelong Bengals fan and have applauded Carson Palmer from Day 1 since he told Mikey Boy to shove it. I haven't felt slighted at all with him leaving.

[MWM]

One thing that's been forgotten in this is Mike Brown's hypocrisy in this. People were lauding him for not giving into Carson and expecting him to live up to his contract. How many times did Brown come out and say something about how Carson signed a contract and it was the right thing for him to honor his contract.

He was claiming to make a stance on principle. But once a really good offer was on the table, expecting Carson to honor his contract all of a sudden wasn't quite so important. In the end, it wasn't about Carson honoring his contract, it was about getting the right offer.

[Redhook]

Additionally, I live in Cincinnati and haven't met one person who is up in arms with Carson leaving. Not one. Mike Brown has ruined the fanbase here with his selfish, obtuse ways.

I find it ironic that just once Mike Brown has finally gotten a little taste of what he has done to the city of Cincinnati with Carson leaving here. And, I think it's awesome.

[traderumor]

Originally Posted by MWM

Man, there are some serious over-reactions to all kinds of things in this thread. First of all, that was Marvin's perception, which could be influenced by him just trying to save face. Marvin decided to stay, but I don't think it was because he wanted to be in Cincinnati as much as its a pretty safe job with Mike Brown as his boss and there's a good chance he wouldn't be in high demand elsewhere. A head coaching gig in the NFL is a pretty good thing to have. Don't think Marvin is somehow objective in this. Carson sure didn't look like he had quit against San Diego last year. It's all a crock of BS if you ask me. I still don't blame Carson one bit for not wanting to play in Cincy anymore. He possibly could have handled it better but I can understand why he was so miserable here.

And I can't believe people are making judgments based on last Sunday when he had 3 days of practice after not having any training camp or anything else. If you think he won't be better, either later this year or next year, you're just not thinking clearly. He's not an elite QB but to think he's going to be a bad one is believing what you want to believe.

I also think people are WAY ahead of themselves on Dalton. I love what the guy has done and the intangibles he seems to bring with him, but all these same things were said about Palmer once upon a time, and Palmer had MUCH more talent. Let's give him a few years in this organization and see how much leadership he has. Jon Kitna has great leadership skills, I doubt anyone wants him back.

I'll readily admit that I'm biased when it comes to the Bengals...biased by cynicism. I'll continue to root for them and hope they turn into a team capable of winning in the playoffs, but I've seen this movie before. In the past 20 years, this same cycle where something or someone comes along and everyone thinks "this is different" and start to believe the franchise has turned the corner and has a bright future has happened at least 4-5 times. I don't see how this is any different. It's not hard to put together a team that is close to winning. Anyone can do that every once in a while. It's difficult to take that next step to having an organization that can seriously compete for a super bowl. I don't believe Mike Brown has any clue how to get there. He can get them close and do enough to provide optimism, but he'll never get them over the edge. Doesn't mean I won't be a fan and hope for something better, but I'm not going to invest in any kind of belief that it will like a lot of people are doing.

I keep on seeing this analogy and it is poor. Kitna was never, ever close to having the talent that Dalton has. Kitna always was a backup QB who got a few starting gigs in subpar programs. Dalton is clearly a starting NFL QB who also has the "gets it" factor. Take a guy like that any day over a strong arm like Palmer. Dalton comps more with Ken Anderson at this stage. Smart, accurate QBs are much more reliable than a guy like Palmer, who only had the arm.

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp

If teams can cut players who are under-performing, should it be a problem for players to want to cut their teams who are under-performing?

Just food for thought.

Well we can debate it but the players had a chance to work out such a system with the owners a few months ago and they didn't. I don't see what the purpose is of debating a hypothetical. Now that the lockout is over and they've agreed to a long term labor agreement, let's accept what is and that is that players are signed to mutliple one yr contracts and that means the owners control their situation like MB did here

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by MWM

One thing that's been forgotten in this is Mike Brown's hypocrisy in this. People were lauding him for not giving into Carson and expecting him to live up to his contract. How many times did Brown come out and say something about how Carson signed a contract and it was the right thing for him to honor his contract.

He was claiming to make a stance on principle. But once a really good offer was on the table, expecting Carson to honor his contract all of a sudden wasn't quite so important. In the end, it wasn't about Carson honoring his contract, it was about getting the right offer.

It was all a negotiating ploy nesigned to keep the press from hounding him with questions and to drive up Carson's price. Hindsight shows that it worked to perfection