Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

[REDREAD]

Originally Posted by mth123

BTW, just for reference, Valdez has a .621 career OPS vs. Janish at .591. Janish has 975 PAs in his career or roughly 2 full seasons. .

Janish's career OPS is misleading, due to the career year he had in 2010.
I think the true Janish is what we saw last year.. Totally hapless.
The league has figured him out. Janish is like having a second pitcher in the lineup.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by REDREAD

Yes, he is an upgrade over Valiaka.

I have to ask now, how?

I don't think Valaika is much of a hitter, but he is better than Wilson Valdez is. Valaika can play every position that Valdez can. He might not be quite as good at shortstop as Valdez is. At best, I would say they are a wash. At worst, Valaika is clearly better.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by REDREAD

Janish's career OPS is misleading, due to the career year he had in 2010.
I think the true Janish is what we saw last year.. Totally hapless.
The league has figured him out. Janish is like having a second pitcher in the lineup.

To be fair, Valdez is also like having a second pitcher in the line up. Have you truly taken a look at his numbers?

[TRF]

Originally Posted by REDREAD

The talent Horst has is neglegible. He's pretty much the definition of a replacement level reliever. The Reds have no room for him in the short term future. The Reds recently signed depth for AAA, so there's really no problem with letting Horst go.

On the other hand, adding someone that can play SS is worthwhile.
Janish is horrid. Valdez isn't great, but is an upgrade. Cozart showed promise, but he's still an unknown.

Any move that makes it less likely for Janish to be on the ML roster is a good one.

Originally Posted by REDREAD

Yes, he is an upgrade over Valiaka.

Prove it. Prove he is better. Prove the 2011 Janish is the real Janish and not the 2010 Janish. Prove a 34 year old UT that was NEVER any good is better than Janish, Valaika and Negron.

Say Janish gets 200 AB's next year and posts withing 20 points either way of his 2010 numbers. Is Valdez better still?

I will never understand why a team that is filled with veterans like Rolen, Votto, Ludwick and Phillips NEEDS a veteran presence like Valdez.

Horst had value. He had an 8.5 K/9 in the minors. He's left handed. And while the Reds have a few LH's on staff, Marshall will likely bolt after this year, looking for a closer gig and a big payday. Madsen is signed for one year. Horst could have moved into Bray's role if he or Massett end up as the 8th-9th inning guys.

Simply put, Horst has value.

Valdez is just another mouth to feed at ST.

[Kc61]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

To be honest, I really hope Jeff Francis doesn't pitch for the Reds. His stuff is incredibly underwhelming at this point. His fastball last year was 85 MPH on average.

The Reds did a great job with Dontrelle last year. Unlike most teams who had failed with Willis, the Reds gave him extended AAA time to get back on track.

Ultimately, it didn't pan out at the major league level, although Dontrelle did have some decent stints.

I think the idea is to do the same with Francis. He was injured in 2009. He hasn't come all the way back.

I expect Francis to pitch in Louisville for two months. Then we'll see what we have. Hopefully the injury plague won't strike and he can stay down there.

The guy has a decent profile for the Reds' stadium. He doesn't throw homers. He doesn't give up many walks.

I agree that I wouldn't want Francis starting with the Reds immediately. But as a depth guy, and someone trying to regain his velocity at AAA, I like the signing very much.

[lollipopcurve]

Simply put, Horst has value.

He was available in the Rule V this year. No one saw the value.

[klw]

Originally Posted by TRF

Valdez is just another mouth to feed at ST.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...aldewi01.shtml
He is listed at 5'7 170 so at least he shouldn't be that big of an eater.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by REDREAD

Janish's career OPS is misleading, due to the career year he had in 2010.
I think the true Janish is what we saw last year.. Totally hapless.
The league has figured him out. Janish is like having a second pitcher in the lineup.

But then again, maybe in a more limited role, he's closer to those 2010 numbers.

[RedLegsToday]

And what does Homer Bailey have to do with Jeff Francis?

Actually, nothing really. A lot of people seem to be relying on Homer to step up and be an above average starter. Last year was the best ERA and ERA+ of his career, and he still wasn't really any better (By those measures) than Jeff Francis was last year.

Of course, I have sort of given up on Homer, and usually once I give up on a guy, he goes off and becomes a star, so, there's that. :-)

[RedLegsToday]

I guess the main point is that things can go to hell in a hurry in the rotation and having Jeff Francis around is better than not having him around.

[pedro]

Originally Posted by TRF

Prove it. Prove he is better. Prove the 2011 Janish is the real Janish and not the 2010 Janish. Prove a 34 year old UT that was NEVER any good is better than Janish, Valaika and Negron.

Say Janish gets 200 AB's next year and posts withing 20 points either way of his 2010 numbers. Is Valdez better still?

I will never understand why a team that is filled with veterans like Rolen, Votto, Ludwick and Phillips NEEDS a veteran presence like Valdez.

Horst had value. He had an 8.5 K/9 in the minors. He's left handed. And while the Reds have a few LH's on staff, Marshall will likely bolt after this year, looking for a closer gig and a big payday. Madsen is signed for one year. Horst could have moved into Bray's role if he or Massett end up as the 8th-9th inning guys.

Simply put, Horst has value.

Valdez is just another mouth to feed at ST.

Are we watching the same Paul Janish?

I have the MLB package. I watched a lot of Reds games last year (and for the past several years) and not only is Paul Janish perhaps the worst MLB hitter I have seen in the last 20 years, he's really not all that great at SS. He's solid, but he's not a gold glover IMO.

[Kc61]

Originally Posted by TRF

I will never understand why a team that is filled with veterans like Rolen, Votto, Ludwick and Phillips NEEDS a veteran presence like Valdez.

.

Because your shortstop is a rookie. Hope that helps.

[REDREAD]

Originally Posted by TRF

Prove it. Prove he is better. Prove the 2011 Janish is the real Janish and not the 2010 Janish. Prove a 34 year old UT that was NEVER any good is better than Janish, Valaika and Negron.

It's an opinion.. Look, I have never asked you or Doug to prove that Valaika >
Valdez. But is Valaika even a legitimate SS? Not really sure he is.

I think a lot of people on this board want to see the minor leaguers promoted and succeeding. They become emotionally attached to the prospects, even when they are no longer prospects (Janish).

The Reds needed a legitimate backup SS. Valaika, Fraser, etc..that's just not going to cut it. Janish is so awful, it's best to not count on him. Janish was one of the millstones that sunk this team last year. Even if you think Janish > Valdez, there's nothing wrong with adding depth.

Simply put, Horst has value.

This reminds me of the Danny Dorn discussions. There was a point last year when any team could've claimed Horst if they were willing to give up a 40 man roster spot to do it. Everyone passed. That seems the definition of a replacement player to me. Horst got some time up here last year, the Reds were obviously not impressed. The Reds have signed 4 relievers this offseason purely as depth guys (Brackman, Judy, and 2 others). Horst is not needed.

[Patrick Bateman]

Just throwing out there that Matt Maloney had a significantly higher K rate in AAA than Horst did.... as a starter.

Let's not act like Horst is some high stuff, young gun.

He's 26, he was passed over by every team in the majors. He has a chance to be a middle reliever some day, and he probably isn't a decent one quite yet.

The Reds felt like they needed some replacement level type of depth at SS. They gave up a redundant piece passed over by every team to get one.

Really, I just don't see the emotion on this one.

[TRF]

Originally Posted by REDREAD

This reminds me of the Danny Dorn discussions. There was a point last year when any team could've claimed Horst if they were willing to give up a 40 man roster spot to do it. Everyone passed. That seems the definition of a replacement player to me. Horst got some time up here last year, the Reds were obviously not impressed. The Reds have signed 4 relievers this offseason purely as depth guys (Brackman, Judy, and 2 others). Horst is not needed.

My all time favorite argument. The same could be said for Nelson Cruz at one time too. And nobody took him.

I'll agree that Horst might not be needed. I don't think Valdez is either. I don't think his veteranness is necessary as he has a total of 1032 PA's in six years. that's a lot of sitting.

Janish has 975 PA's, has more innings in the field, is younger and a better defender. The bat is probably a wash.

I'm not against getting players. I'm against getting what you already have, paying more for what you already have.

pedro, I saw Janish last year too. awful. I saw something else in 2010. Completely different hitter. I have no idea why, but I suspect Janish isn't mentally up to being "The Man" at SS. I think he might be a very good backup though.