2012 NCAA Tournament

[Boston Red]

Of course Ohio State is a better program historically. I was born in 1976 and started watching basketball regularly in the mid-80s. Ohio State was probably somewhat better than Xavier in that era (pre-Matta), too, but it wasn't much of a gulf. Certainly not one to be "protected" by not playing each other.

Not that there was even a perceived rivalry/bad feelings on either side before Matta went from X to OSU.

[Brutus]

Originally Posted by Boston Red

Of course Ohio State is a better program historically. I was born in 1976 and started watching basketball regularly in the mid-80s. Ohio State was probably somewhat better than Xavier in that era (pre-Matta), too, but it wasn't much of a gulf. Certainly not one to be "protected" by not playing each other.

Not that there was even a perceived rivalry/bad feelings on either side before Matta went from X to OSU.

You said you never thought of Ohio State being a better program than Xavier until Matta got there. So your statements seem to be contradicting one another.

If you agree they've been a better program historically, then I guess you should have thought of them as a better program pre-Matta

[Boston Red]

Historically. You know like how Dayton is historically probably better than Xavier. But no one born after 1980 would really think about Dayton as better than Xavier based on what they've seen in their lifetimes.

[traderumor]

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

Probably, but can you say the same about NCAA appearances?

How about National Championships? I don't know that tourney appearances is a fair measuring stick for two programs in completely different regular season worlds in the timeframe being discussed here.

For the record, OSU stands at 24 NCAA appearances, Xavier 23, according to Wikipedia. It was unclear from the note on the site if the four vacated seasons were included in that count.

[Brutus]

Originally Posted by Boston Red

Historically. You know like how Dayton is historically probably better than Xavier. But no one born after 1980 would really think about Dayton as better than Xavier based on what they've seen in their lifetimes.

I don't really think anyone thought Xavier was as good a program as Ohio State in their lifetimes before Thad Matta. Matta sure didn't think that. Heck, Ohio State has just been to a Final Four in 1999. Ohio State was a 1-seed in 1991 and 1992. And that was within 15 years of Matta being hired. Clearly we're not talking about ancient history... like Seattle, Mary Hardin-Baylor or Hardin-Simmons being powerhouses back in the 1940's and 50's.

[dabvu2498]

Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp

I don't really think anyone thought Xavier was as good a program as Ohio State in their lifetimes before Thad Matta. Matta sure didn't think that. Heck, Ohio State has just been to a Final Four in 1999. Ohio State was a 1-seed in 1991 and 1992. And that was within 15 years of Matta being hired. Clearly we're not talking about ancient history... like Seattle, Mary Hardin-Baylor or Hardin-Simmons being powerhouses back in the 1940's and 50's.

Mary Hardin-Baylor? I'm fairly sure they just became a co-ed school in the not so distant past. A quick search shows nothing on their basketball history.

Hardin-Simmons doesn't look like they've ever been a "powerhouse" either.
http://www.hsuathletics.com/sports/m...By-Year_Record

I'm assuming you're thinking of someone else.

[Brutus]

Originally Posted by dabvu2498

Mary Hardin-Baylor? I'm fairly sure they just became a co-ed school in the not so distant past. A quick search shows nothing on their basketball history.

Hardin-Simmons doesn't look like they've ever been a "powerhouse" either.
http://www.hsuathletics.com/sports/m...By-Year_Record

I'm assuming you're thinking of someone else.

They were never powerhouses, and I admit to purposely exaggerating the statement to get a point across, but I was trying to convey that we're not talking about a program that fell off the face of the earth over the course of history, as those programs were somewhat relevant at one point (well, Mary Hardin-Baylor wasn't, but Hardin-Simmons and Seattle definitely were). Perhaps better examples would have been NYU, CCNY, San Francisco, etc., but hopefully you get the point I was trying to make.

[dabvu2498]

Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp

They were never powerhouses, and I admit to purposely exaggerating the statement to get a point across, but I was trying to convey that we're not talking about a program that fell off the face of the earth over the course of history, as those programs were somewhat relevant at one point (well, Mary Hardin-Baylor wasn't, but Hardin-Simmons and Seattle definitely were). Perhaps better examples would have been NYU, CCNY, San Francisco, etc., but hopefully you get the point I was trying to make.

I was confused by your inclusion of M H-B and H-S. I consider myself a fair student of the history of the game and didn't know if I was missing something about the history of those two programs.

[Assembly Hall]

Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp

They were never powerhouses, and I admit to purposely exaggerating the statement to get a point across, but I was trying to convey that we're not talking about a program that fell off the face of the earth over the course of history, as those programs were somewhat relevant at one point (well, Mary Hardin-Baylor wasn't, but Hardin-Simmons and Seattle definitely were). Perhaps better examples would have been NYU, CCNY, San Francisco, etc., but hopefully you get the point I was trying to make.

LOL.......I got the point!!!!!!!! And to show my age, I remember when San Francisco was a powerhouse and I was born in '67. Shows how much the college b-ball landscape has changed since I have been alive.

[Brutus]

Originally Posted by dabvu2498

I was confused by your inclusion of M H-B and H-S. I consider myself a fair student of the history of the game and didn't know if I was missing something about the history of those two programs.

I think I misspoke on Mary Hardin-Baylor. I don't know why I mentioned them, though I was thinking they had been a D-1 program during those years, but Hardin-Simmons was somewhat of an established program for a handful of years heading into the 50s and made a handful of NCAA Tournaments.

[dabvu2498]

Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp

I think I misspoke on Mary Hardin-Baylor. I don't know why I mentioned them, though I was thinking they had been a D-1 program during those years, but Hardin-Simmons was somewhat of an established program for a handful of years heading into the 50s and made a handful of NCAA Tournaments.

I see now, after a little more research, that they made it twice (53 and 57).

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-bask...y/_/team1/6120

But really, they were pretty bad most of the time:

http://www.hsuathletics.com/sports/m...By-Year_Record

I had no idea they'd ever competed at that level. Makes me wonder what conference they were in back in the day. May have to consult a book (gasp!) and find out.

[Assembly Hall]

Originally Posted by dabvu2498

I had no idea they'd ever competed at that level. Makes me wonder what conference they were in back in the day. May have to consult a book (gasp!) and find out.

I use sports-reference.com for alot of info.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/...mons/1957.html

[jredmo2]

Who would have thought in 2007 that, in five years, Bearcats' 6'4 center Connor Barwin would become a successful pro athlete at the highest level, while Greg Oden would have no job?

[LoganBuck]

Originally Posted by jredmo2

Who would have thought in 2007 that, in five years, Bearcats' 6'4 center Connor Barwin would become a successful pro athlete at the highest level, while Greg Oden would have no job?

It is sad that Oden's body betrayed him.

[Roy Tucker]

Saw this in the paper this AM... Nothing new, but a summary of the UC-OSU cold war.

I did like the Jeffersonville crack.

http://www.buckeyextra.com/content/s...y-to-thaw.html