6/19/12 - Reds at Indians

[dman]

Originally Posted by traderumor

But it is reactionary. You're bringing it up because he got beat tonight. So, they send him down to the minors for the conversion to starter (yea, that's realistic), then he has a bad start and "man, put him back in the pen. We'll just have a lights out closer."

He got beat tonight. End of story. It's a bummer. It happens. The batter won the battle tonight. Does it always have to turn into a debate on the Reds doing something wrong or need some dramatic change to take place each and every time they lose, or almost lose? We only scored two runs tonight, better go get some bats, right?

Getting beat is a bummer, and it does happen, but when we've seen this kind of scenario coming at least for a little over a week, going back to the Detroit series, when it's fastball, fastball, and fastball, that's when it gets even more irritating. I think the pen is right where Chapman belongs. I have serious doubts he'll ever be a starter. Not only does he not have starter material, but I doubt he'll ever have the maturity nor the mentality to be a starter. Outside of his fastball, his other pitches are mediocre at best, but if he can gain just enough command of them to get the hitters off balance, hopefully he can get back to being that lights out reliever that he was earlier in the season.

[757690]

Originally Posted by traderumor

But it is reactionary. You're bringing it up because he got beat tonight. So, they send him down to the minors for the conversion to starter (yea, that's realistic), then he has a bad start and "man, put him back in the pen. We'll just have a lights out closer."

He got beat tonight. End of story. It's a bummer. It happens. The batter won the battle tonight. Does it always have to turn into a debate on the Reds doing something wrong or need some dramatic change to take place each and every time they lose, or almost lose? We only scored two runs tonight, better go get some bats, right?

If this was the first time, then yeah, it's reactionary. But Chapman has been hit hard 4 out of his last 6 appearances, and mostly because he won't/cant throw an offspeed pitch in tough situations.

And to be honest, I am bias, because I never wanted him closing this year, and have wanted him to be in Louisville developing as a starter this whole season. I don't care if he starts in the majors this season or not, as long as he continues to develop as a starter.

I was willing to accept him as a closer, as it fit the Reds needs at the time, but now, it doesn't seem to. He needs to develop more confidence in his offspeed pitches to help the team either as a starter or reliever.

[PuffyPig]

Originally Posted by traderumor

Does it always have to turn into a debate on the Reds doing something wrong or need some dramatic change to take place each and every time they lose, or almost lose?

I'm assuming that is a rhetorical question, because on RedsZone when we lose it's always someone's fault.

Even in baseball, where randomness determines many parts of the game, it's always someone's fault.

We're going to lose at least 60 games, so you may as well get used to it.

[AtomicDumpling]

That was actually a very good pitch by Chapman that Cabrera hit for the game winning home run. Sometimes you throw a good pitch and the hitter whacks it anyway.

[WVRedsFan]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

That was actually a very good pitch by Chapman that Cabrera hit for the game winning home run. Sometimes you throw a good pitch and the hitter whacks it anyway.

So true. Take Votto. He hits a LOT of good pitches for hits. It's just a shame that the mental toughness seems to not be there so far. I guess we have to remember that Chapman is not a veteran. Cozart is a rookie, as is Frazier, and Heisey is not ready for prime time. Ludwick is a great guy who will be a hero or look stupid at the plate. Likewise Bruce ( with so much potential, I don't know why). For a team with no bench and a dysfunctional lineup, we've done pretty well. That said, the team will probably be OK if they take care of business, and win two of three, don't discount StLouis or (shudders) Pittsburgh and Milwaukee, and play ball. A lot to ask, but I think it's ours to win.

[kaldaniels]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

That was actually a very good pitch by Chapman that Cabrera hit for the game winning home run. Sometimes you throw a good pitch and the hitter whacks it anyway.

How do you determine it was a good pitch?

Was it a strike? (I truly don't know) If not it was ball 4.

If it was a strike it was at waist level (outer half) and (assuming what was written in the thread earlier was correct) the 11th straight fastball, 10th of which at the same speed.

Other than "it was not a meatball", I don't know that I would call it a good pitch.

[AtomicDumpling]

Originally Posted by kaldaniels

How do you determine it was a good pitch?

Was it a strike? (I truly don't know) If not it was ball 4.

If it was a strike it was at waist level (outer half) and (assuming what was written in the thread earlier was correct) the 11th straight fastball, 10th of which at the same speed.

Other than "it was not a meatball", I don't know that I would call it a good pitch.

In my opinion it was an excellent pitch -- hard heat placed perfectly right at the knees on the outside corner of the plate. Hitter had to lunge over the plate to reach it and he hit it over the fence to the opposite field. Chapman got beat on a very difficult pitch to hit. Sometimes you just have to give the hitter credit rather than blame the pitcher.

[kaldaniels]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

In my opinion it was an excellent pitch -- hard heat placed perfectly right at the knees on the outside corner of the plate. Hitter had to lunge over the plate to reach it and he hit it over the fence to the opposite field. Chapman got beat on a very difficult pitch to hit. Sometimes you just have to give the hitter credit rather than blame the pitcher.

True. Placement-wise, probably the best you could do if your goal is a strike.

But timing-wise (placement isn't everything) it was very problematic.

In a vacumm it was a nice pitch, but being the 11th straight fastball at similar mph, it really wasn't.

[WVRedsFan]

Ah, at least we had a cushion. It has shrunk by a game and a half in just two days on two one-run games, but we still lead the central. For now.

[redsmetz]

Originally Posted by PuffyPig

4.5 I think.

Pirates don't count.

I figure you're jesting while making a point, but I'd prefer not to tempt fate. Our lead is 2.5 games over the Pirates and until their record indicates otherwise, they do count. I suspect there were Cardinals or Brewers fans in 2010 who might have said the same thing about us.

[redsmetz]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

That was actually a very good pitch by Chapman that Cabrera hit for the game winning home run. Sometimes you throw a good pitch and the hitter whacks it anyway.

I have to agree with you on this after watching the video of the home run this morning. The pitch was tailing down and he somehow got his bat out there with some force and put it over the fence.

[cumberlandreds]

I didn't see the game last night but I suspect Chapman is regressing back to being human. He was inhuman for about two months. Baseball tends to bring out the humanity of anyone who plays it. I wouldn't worry too much about Chapman yet. Come back to me in about a month and we will see what happens in the mean time.

[alloverjr]

Originally Posted by redsmetz

I have to agree with you on this after watching the video of the home run this morning. The pitch was tailing down and he somehow got his bat out there with some force and put it over the fence.

Nice pitch, nice shot by Cabrera. Bigger issue, why a guy like him is able to dive over the plate to hit that. Everything Chapman throws anymore it seems are fastballs middle-away to RH. There's no concern, it would appear, of a slider or anything not straight, and nothing on the inner half to third. Poor command? Poor pitch calling? He was throwing 94 on a gun that Welch called potentially "fast". Maybe injured? The Cuban mob? Tip of my hat if I wore one to the Tribe (and Tigers and Pirates), but I have to believe that there's more approach or mechanics involved than great AB's against.

[lollipopcurve]

Nice pitch, nice shot by Cabrera. Bigger issue, why a guy like him is able to dive over the plate to hit that. Everything Chapman throws anymore it seems are fastballs middle-away to RH. There's no concern, it would appear, of a slider or anything not straight, and nothing on the inner half to third. Poor command? Poor pitch calling? He was throwing 94 on a gun that Welch called potentially "fast". Maybe injured? The Cuban mob? Tip of my hat if I wore one to the Tribe (and Tigers and Pirates), but I have to believe that there's more approach or mechanics involved than great AB's against.

Well said, and I could not agree more. Chapman has been having lower back issues. As I've said before, the guy is a stallion, not a mule, and this short relief gig is starting to look like it may not be something he can handle over a full year. He's been in 30 games -- just about the same number he'd have to pitch in over a full year as a starter. Already his back is barking and he's down to pretty much 1 pitch -- at diminished velocity. Face it -- these are red flags.

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by dman

It's not so much dogging Chapman, but when you're only using one pitch every time out, it's bound to catch up with you. Chapman has started to lean to heavily on his crutch and it can only support him through for so long.

Yes and that pitch was quite ordinary last night. Most teams have a closer that can throw a 96 MPH FB. Our much maligned closer from last yr did. If he's going to throw 96 then he'd better have very good control and the ability to mix in other pitches