I like what I'm hearing from Dusty

[Reds/Flyers Fan]

I blame Walt more than I blame Dusty, who is only using the players he's given.

[mattfeet]

Originally Posted by Reds/Flyers Fan

I blame Walt more than I blame Dusty, who is only using the players he's given.

Yea, Walt's done nothing at all to try and put a good product on the field.

[mdccclxix]

Originally Posted by Bumstead

I read all of that and didn't really notice anything funny. Carry on. For the record I believe I predicted 88 or 90 wins in Dusty's first year. Anything else?

Bum

So did Dusty let you down, or that horrible 2008 defense and pitching staff? The fact is Dusty's critics have less and less to criticize him for and love living on whatever the Cubs fans decided was the verdict on his managing style.

[mdccclxix]

Originally Posted by MikeThierry

mdccclxix, I don't think the Mike Matheny comment is a good example because Matheny has had to deal with an injured team the majority of the year. It's kind of a different situation.


Anyway, back to the original topic. I have never been a fan of Dusty Baker and I've never felt he outmanaged TLR all those years. That said, I kind of have to stick up for him here. What else is he supposed to do? The Reds essentially have 1 elite hitter in the lineup, 1 good hitter (Phillips), one power bat that is inconsistent (Bruce), and the rest of the lineup is inconsistent. Dusty doesn't aquire the players he uses. I think the way he's using the lineup is about as good as you're going to get given the current situation with Reds players. Blame Baker for things he's truely responsible for screwing up, not things that are out of his control.

I think Matheney probably is doing a good job, getting a lot out of his players, for sure. They have had some bad luck in 1 run games.

[mdccclxix]

Originally Posted by mattfeet

Yea, Walt's done nothing at all to try and put a good product on the field.

Exactly, and what many people are upset about with Dusty is one small area, the batting order. It's getting harder and harder to hate on him as the Reds contend, but there is the issue of Walt not settling LF/cleanup very well last season. We'll see if Heisey and Ludwick can really catch fire, though...

[Bumstead]

Originally Posted by mdccclxix

So did Dusty let you down, or that horrible 2008 defense and pitching staff? The fact is Dusty's critics have less and less to criticize him for and love living on whatever the Cubs fans decided was the verdict on his managing style.

OH I don't know about that. Who cares what chubbies fans think anyway? How about the year and half of underachievement? How about that? His job is to motivate these players to play better than and at worst meet expectations based on their talent levels. He has not done that at all. That's the rub. Sure, one can criticize his inability to construct a lineup, his overuse of certain bullpen arms (not necessarily to the point of injury, just the point of exhaustion , not to mention the staleness of the other relievers), his non-interest in the importance of players getting on base and so on. But really it comes down to this team's underachievement that makes him a poor manager for this (and probably most any other team in MLB, although I wish the Cardinals would hire him) team. Keep the excuses and condescension coming as it keeps me entertained.

Bum

[Bumstead]

Originally Posted by mdccclxix

Exactly, and what many people are upset about with Dusty is one small area, the batting order. It's getting harder and harder to hate on him as the Reds contend, but there is the issue of Walt not settling LF/cleanup very well last season. We'll see if Heisey and Ludwick can really catch fire, though...

I see you missed the sarcasm in his post...

[reds44]

Dusty is playing Ludwick/Rolen over Frazier and batting Cozart/Stubbs at the top of the lineup instead of Hanigan. He's still a bad manager.

[mdccclxix]

Originally Posted by Bumstead

OH I don't know about that. Who cares what chubbies fans think anyway? How about the year and half of underachievement? How about that? His job is to motivate these players to play better than and at worst meet expectations based on their talent levels. He has not done that at all. That's the rub. Sure, one can criticize his inability to construct a lineup, his overuse of certain bullpen arms (not necessarily to the point of injury, just the point of exhaustion , not to mention the staleness of the other relievers), his non-interest in the importance of players getting on base and so on. But really it comes down to this team's underachievement that makes him a poor manager for this (and probably most any other team in MLB, although I wish the Cardinals would hire him) team. Keep the excuses and condescension coming as it keeps me entertained.

Bum

I'm sure Dusty himself would agree to the tenor of "You can always do better" but your standard for 2012 is obviously skewed by 2011. It was a bad season last year, which happens. This year is looking good so far to me. I don't see it your way at all. I also think many of the players are meeting or exceeding their expectations under Dusty. Although, if your expectations are really high (they seem to be), I can see why you are not happy.

[MikeThierry]

Originally Posted by Bumstead

OH I don't know about that. Who cares what chubbies fans think anyway? How about the year and half of underachievement? How about that? His job is to motivate these players to play better than and at worst meet expectations based on their talent levels. He has not done that at all. That's the rub. Sure, one can criticize his inability to construct a lineup, his overuse of certain bullpen arms (not necessarily to the point of injury, just the point of exhaustion , not to mention the staleness of the other relievers), his non-interest in the importance of players getting on base and so on. But really it comes down to this team's underachievement that makes him a poor manager for this (and probably most any other team in MLB, although I wish the Cardinals would hire him) team. Keep the excuses and condescension coming as it keeps me entertained.

Bum

That's kind of a silly criticism. How can a manager will a player to do better? I've witnessed the best manager I have ever seen manage on the field in TLR all those years and even he had a hard time "willing" or motivating players to do better. What he did do is put pressure on them to compete hard all 9 innings. That's about as much as a manager can really do with their players. From what I'm seeing from a far, Baker seems to be pushing players to play a hard 9. Secondly, who's expectations are they trying to match? Realistic expectations or expectations from fans based on hype? You may think that they have a certain level of talent but reality might be completely different. Take Stubbs for example. Ever since I have been in this forum, the poster here love this guy's upside. However, what if he is what he is? What if his ceiling is actually a guy with a ton of speed but will strike out 9000 times per year? You can't will a player to be better than he actually is.

[mdccclxix]

Originally Posted by Bumstead

I see you missed the sarcasm in his post...

No, I agreed with it, but didn't write it out well. I liked Walt's offseason, but think he missed out on some key FA's the last few years.

[mdccclxix]

Originally Posted by reds44

Dusty is playing Ludwick/Rolen over Frazier and batting Cozart/Stubbs at the top of the lineup instead of Hanigan. He's still a bad manager.

Frazier will get at bats and Rolen will play because of his contract, status, and defense, and the fact he's going to hit at least some. Hanigan at leadoff is not realistic and the #2 hitter is OPSing over .800 last time I checked. No reason to put Hanigan #2. In all, this is small potatoes and certainly not evidence that Dusty is a bad manager.

[mdccclxix]

Originally Posted by MikeThierry

That's kind of a silly criticism. How can a manager will a player to do better? I've witnessed the best manager I have ever seen manage on the field in TLR all those years and even he had a hard time "willing" or motivating players to do better. What he did do is put pressure on them to compete hard all 9 innings. That's about as much as a manager can really do with their players. From what I'm seeing from a far, Baker seems to be pushing players to play a hard 9. Secondly, who's expectations are they trying to match? Realistic expectations or expectations from fans based on hype? You may think that they have a certain level of talent but reality might be completely different. Take Stubbs for example. Ever since I have been in this forum, the poster here love this guy's upside. However, what if he is what he is? What if his ceiling is actually a guy with a ton of speed but will strike out 9000 times per year? You can't will a player to be better than he actually is.

+1

[hebroncougar]

Originally Posted by mdccclxix

Frazier will get at bats and Rolen will play because of his contract, status, and defense, and the fact he's going to hit at least some. Hanigan at leadoff is not realistic and the #2 hitter is OPSing over .800 last time I checked. No reason to put Hanigan #2. In all, this is small potatoes and certainly not evidence that Dusty is a bad manager.

Why is Hanigan at leadoff not realistic?

[reds44]

Originally Posted by mdccclxix

Frazier will get at bats and Rolen will play because of his contract, status, and defense, and the fact he's going to hit at least some. Hanigan at leadoff is not realistic and the #2 hitter is OPSing over .800 last time I checked. No reason to put Hanigan #2. In all, this is small potatoes and certainly not evidence that Dusty is a bad manager.

How is it not realistic? He has the (I believe) 2nd best on base on the team behind Votto. Why would you not want him on base for the best hitter in baseball?