Brandon Phillips and the Double Play

[Ironman92]

Yes he hits into a good number of double plays and that seems to be an argument for not putting him in front of Votto because too often he hits into the DP.

Now I'm not arguing where he should bat and the thread really isn't deemed to go that way. I argued a while back that when he bats 4th he admittedly tries to hit more homers and drive in more RBI and is essentially pull happy....but any other spot in the order he goes oppo more and I bet he doesn't hit into to many DP's when he goes oppo.

Well, check out these numbers (of course they prove me right...hence the thread)

2012.....he has 14 DPs.....0 to the opposite side.

2011....15 DPs.....0 to the opposite side

2010....14 DPs.....0 to the opposite side

He has more than 50 DPs since his last one going oppo.

Career.....135 DPs.....3 were oppo

He has hit to the oppo side of the field 350+ times without a DP since his last one in early 2009.

Real simple.....if he's batting 2nd in front of Votto with a good leadoff hitter and the approach to go oppo.....aren't going to be any DPs to worry about.

[Stray]

I think way too much is made about his double plays. Sure he may take bigger cuts batting 4th but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. He still shortens up with 2 strikes...he's the only guy not named Votto who does that on the team.

Overall I think moving him to the 4th spot has been a success. He's driving in some runs, hitting for average, and is still a very good situational hitter. Only way I'd consider moving him up is if we need a spark to get the team going again.

[R_Webb18]

its hard to do a 2 out rally. with cozart/stubbs batting 1/2 that's what you have to do a lot.

[Stray]

Originally Posted by R_Webb18

its hard to do a 2 out rally. with cozart/stubbs batting 1/2 that's what you have to do a lot.

Lance just tweeted that Bowden said the Reds are getting Span, Victorino, or Pierre...that we're sure of it. So helping out the leadoff spot is a good possibility.

Not that Bowden is always right though lol.

[[deleted]]

I agree BP should be hitting lead-off (unless we acquire someone), but I don't think I agree with any of the logic you've presented here.

You're saying that these DPs are a result of his changed approach while hitting clean-up, but all that really shows me is that when he DOES GIDP, it's because he makes weak contact and ends up grounding to short. You pointing out his career 'which-side-of-the-IF-he-grounds-to' splits and that it's been 50 double plays since he last hit into an opposite field one seems to be hurting your argument, not helping it. It implies that when he does GIDP, it's always to the left side of the infield, regardless of where he's hitting in the order.

As someone else pointed out in an earlier thread, when you're hitting behind the guy that gets on base (usually 1st) more often than anyone else alive, you're going to hit into some DPs. Actually, Brandon's GB% is down from his career average this year, and his LD% is up. I'm not worried about this at all.

[R_Webb18]

Originally Posted by Stray

Lance just tweeted that Bowden said the Reds are getting Span, Victorino, or Pierre...that we're sure of it. So helping out the leadoff spot is a good possibility.

Not that Bowden is always right though lol.

i hope its not pierre even tho we would give up less. i like span. huge upgrade over stubbs and its not a 1 year deal. but there's always a price.

[Stray]

Originally Posted by R_Webb18

i hope its not pierre even tho we would give up less. i like span. huge upgrade over stubbs and its not a 1 year deal. but there's always a price.

I think Pierre is the most likely one, but I'd bet Span is the one Walt wants most. Depends what everyone is asking for I suppose.

I'd also be curious who other GMs would want more, Heisey or Stubbs.

[Knightro28]

Originally Posted by Ironman92

Yes he hits into a good number of double plays and that seems to be an argument for not putting him in front of Votto because too often he hits into the DP.

Now I'm not arguing where he should bat and the thread really isn't deemed to go that way. I argued a while back that when he bats 4th he admittedly tries to hit more homers and drive in more RBI and is essentially pull happy....but any other spot in the order he goes oppo more and I bet he doesn't hit into to many DP's when he goes oppo.

Well, check out these numbers (of course they prove me right...hence the thread)

2012.....he has 14 DPs.....0 to the opposite side.

2011....15 DPs.....0 to the opposite side

2010....14 DPs.....0 to the opposite side

He has more than 50 DPs since his last one going oppo.

Career.....135 DPs.....3 were oppo

He has hit to the oppo side of the field 350+ times without a DP since his last one in early 2009.

Real simple.....if he's batting 2nd in front of Votto with a good leadoff hitter and the approach to go oppo.....aren't going to be any DPs to worry about.

Fascinating stuff... Must be that he doesn't want to help out other 2B vying for the Gold Glove.

[Ironman92]

Originally Posted by [deleted]

I agree BP should be hitting lead-off (unless we acquire someone), but I don't think I agree with any of the logic you've presented here.

You're saying that these DPs are a result of his changed approach while hitting clean-up, but all that really shows me is that when he DOES GIDP, it's because he makes weak contact and ends up grounding to short. You pointing out his career 'which-side-of-the-IF-he-grounds-to' splits and that it's been 50 double plays since he last hit into an opposite field one seems to be hurting your argument, not helping it. It implies that when he does GIDP, it's always to the left side of the infield, regardless of where he's hitting in the order.

As someone else pointed out in an earlier thread, when you're hitting behind the guy that gets on base (usually 1st) more often than anyone else alive, you're going to hit into some DPs. Actually, Brandon's GB% is down from his career average this year, and his LD% is up. I'm not worried about this at all.

When he's hitting his best he's going oppo more often than when he is struggling. I don't care where he hits in the lineup (prefer 2...but whatever)....my point is that when a runner is on 1st and he's batting 4th he's more apt to the DP due to his admitted mindset of hitting cleanup.....batting anywhere else would not be a DP threat as he goes oppo more and my numbers completely prove that. My post was disputing he couldn't bat in front of Votto due to his DPs.....Runner on 1st....no outs....go oppo. He gets the pitch for it about 1/2 the time and he's very good at doing it.

....but 2 things like has been mentioned

1. DPs are overrated in many instances. Pujols was always near the top.

2. He should be able to just bat 4th with his better approach of when he hits 1st or 2nd....or 3rd right now.

[OldCat]

Originally Posted by Ironman92

2. He should be able to just bat 4th with his better approach of when he hits 1st or 2nd....or 3rd right now.

Lie to him about his position in the batting order and hide him in the clubhouse for the first 2 batters.

[Larkin88]

Originally Posted by Knightro28

Fascinating stuff... Must be that he doesn't want to help out other 2B vying for the Gold Glove.

Well played.

I totally agree with Knightro28, though. This is interesting stuff.

[[deleted]]

Originally Posted by Ironman92

When he's hitting his best he's going oppo more often than when he is struggling. I don't care where he hits in the lineup (prefer 2...but whatever)....my point is that when a runner is on 1st and he's batting 4th he's more apt to the DP due to his admitted mindset of hitting cleanup.....batting anywhere else would not be a DP threat as he goes oppo more and my numbers completely prove that. My post was disputing he couldn't bat in front of Votto due to his DPs.....Runner on 1st....no outs....go oppo. He gets the pitch for it about 1/2 the time and he's very good at doing it.

....but 2 things like has been mentioned

1. DPs are overrated in many instances. Pujols was always near the top.

2. He should be able to just bat 4th with his better approach of when he hits 1st or 2nd....or 3rd right now.

I'm still not exactly sure what those numbers are proving, though. The immediate connection my mind makes is that the increased double plays come with the fact that he's put into way more situations with runners on; when he's hitting lead-off he's more often either opening the game or hitting after the pitcher and 8th slot - obviously those guys are less likely to get on in front of him. I'm not sure you can see these numbers and use them as proof that his mindset is causing the DPs.

In fact, looking at his career splits, I can see a few things:

1. He hits better when he pulls the ball. Not just power, but on-base skills as well. On his career, his OBP when hitting the ball to LF is nearly 70 points higher than when he goes 'oppo,' and his OPS is nearly 300 points higher. His GB%, though, is much higher when he pulls. This is where the DPs come from, I suppose. The LD% when he hits to RF is only marginally higher. Mostly when he hits to the opposite field he hits fly balls.

2. He is hitting to the opposite field now just as much as he always has. This season, he's hit the ball to RF in 93 of his 381 PA, good for 24%. On his career, he's at 23.7%.

[Ironman92]

Originally Posted by [deleted]

I'm still not exactly sure what those numbers are proving, though. The immediate connection my mind makes is that the increased double plays come with the fact that he's put into way more situations with runners on; when he's hitting lead-off he's more often either opening the game or hitting after the pitcher and 8th slot - obviously those guys are less likely to get on in front of him. I'm not sure you can see these numbers and use them as proof that his mindset is causing the DPs.

In fact, looking at his career splits, I can see a few things:

1. He hits better when he pulls the ball. Not just power, but on-base skills as well. On his career, his OBP when hitting the ball to LF is nearly 70 points higher than when he goes 'oppo,' and his OPS is nearly 300 points higher. His GB%, though, is much higher when he pulls. This is where the DPs come from, I suppose. The LD% when he hits to RF is only marginally higher. Mostly when he hits to the opposite field he hits fly balls.

2. He is hitting to the opposite field now just as much as he always has. This season, he's hit the ball to RF in 93 of his 381 PA, good for 24%. On his career, he's at 23.7%.

Of course his OPS and all that is better to LF....that's where most of his HR and doubles go. I never said his numbers were better oppo.....I said when he's at his best he's going oppo more...not meaning he's going 3/4 every time down the RF line....but just he's hitting the ball hard where it's pitched....and that's the same time he's smacking homers.....but when he gets the monster HR into the upper deck swing....he's not going oppo very often and he's not hitting many HR..

Right now what he's doing is great.....hitting it where it's at and situational.

Obviously he hits into more DPs when he goes to the plate more with runners on.....but like I proved when he goes oppo.....he hasn't had a DP that way in his last 50 DPs

His last 350+ struck balls to the opposite side....no DPs....not in over 3 years.

So let's leave it at this.....no matter where Phillips is hitting and you want anything but a DP....root for him to hit it oppo.

Go Reds!