The infield Fly

[George Anderson]

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

That's why it was a judgement call all the way and I disagree with the ump's judgement. I saw it as the LF's play. Moreover, there was no reason to call the INF Fly Rule because of how deep it was. It was too far away to double up two guys. Runners were going "halfway" because there was no reason to try to tag up on such a shallow fly. Bottomline: Poor, poor judgement on the part of the ump but not something that's "protestable".

Exactly right, he may have had the rule right but it was poor judgement.

My question is why do we even need an extra 2 umpires during the playoffs? In general when the playoffs start at any level, extra umpires are added under the assumption that more is better when in reality is is not. When you do things the same way in the case of MLB umpires for 162 games it can be a problem to change rotations and coverage etc... IMO I think that umpires are also added kind of as a reward to those umpires for their good work during the year but again it comes at a price because it very much changes the way you umpire throughout the whole year. IMO Holbrook making a call like he did last night which was in a position very much out of his norm, was a factor in why the bad call was made.

If a 3rd base or 1st base umpire cannot make the same calls that the umpires on the lines are suddenly hired to make especially in this era of replay then there is a problem.

[mth123]

Originally Posted by George Anderson

Exactly right, he may have had the rule right but it was poor judgement.

My question is why do we even need an extra 2 umpires during the playoffs? In general when the playoffs start at any level, extra umpires are added under the assumption that more is better when in reality is is not. When you do things the same way in the case of MLB umpires for 162 games it can be a problem to change rotations and coverage etc... IMO I think that umpires are also added kind of as a reward to those umpires for their good work during the year but again it comes at a price because it very much changes the way you umpire throughout the whole year. IMO Holbrook making a call like he did last night which was in a position very much out of his norm, was a factor in why the bad call was made.

If a 3rd base or 1st base umpire cannot make the same calls that the umpires on the lines are suddenly hired to make especially in this era of replay then there is a problem.

I wonder if the extra umps are more a way to throw a bone to the union to get more umps into the post season. There was a time when it was an earned distinction to be a post season ump. I wonder if this was a way to expand the group as part of some long forgotten CBA that has now become "tradition."

[Jpup]

I hated the call, but it was the right one. It happens many times during the season. Harold Reynolds explained it with video last night on MLB Network. If you watch the explanation, you will agree that the right call was made.

[RedFanAlways1966]

Originally Posted by Jpup

I hated the call, but it was the right one. It happens many times during the season. Harold Reynolds explained it with video last night on MLB Network. If you watch the explanation, you will agree that the right call was made.

I agree 100% with you (did not see Reynolds). Kozmos could have caught that ball with semi-ease. However, HE BLEW IT! No ifs/and/buts about it... the shortstop blew it by thinking Holliday was going to catch it and gave way to him. It happens.

The major fail by popping up and deserving what you get puts the game in a "circus" atmosphere and one I do not want. Umpires will even call "purposely dropped" liners outs b/c the infielder is trying to get a DP in a "deceitful way".

[reds1869]

I think those of you reading this thread would absolutely love A Game of Inches by Peter Morris. Volume One does a great job of explaining how and why baseball evolved into the game we watch today.

[OldRightHander]

Originally Posted by PuffyPig

Put your hand up if you want more bunting.

[dabvu2498]

Originally Posted by Jpup

I hated the call, but it was the right one. It happens many times during the season. Harold Reynolds explained it with video last night on MLB Network. If you watch the explanation, you will agree that the right call was made.

I disagree with Reynolds in a way. For my money, if the umpire can't make a determination of "ordinary effort" by the time the ball is at it's apex, infield fly rule should not be called. By the time the call was made last night, the runners were already hung out to dry, so to speak.

As an aside, the knothole association that I did some games for as a high school and college kid had a modified infield fly rule. As I remember it, if the usual conditions of the infield fly rule existed, the batter was out and the ball was dead (runners could not advance) when it reached its' apex in the air. This was largely to cover our (umpires') butts in case we forgot to call it and also so that there was a clear cut rule in place in the event an infielder dropped a pop-up. Because it bacame a dead ball situation immediately, we could huddle after the chaos was over, put everyone back in their place and that was that. Of course, we didn't have infielders covering the kind of ground that these major leaguers can, so typically it was far more clear cut as to when the rule applied. But I still think this was a pretty good modification to the big league rule.

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966

I agree 100% with you (did not see Reynolds). Kozmos could have caught that ball with semi-ease. However, HE BLEW IT! No ifs/and/buts about it... the shortstop blew it by thinking Holliday was going to catch it and gave way to him. It happens.

Fair enough but how deep does it have to get before it's not an INF Fly?

[RedsManRick]

I would simply like to see them change it to allow for the possibility of a real error, such as last night's. Basically, if the ball is not caught, all runners automatically advance. Make them make the catch.

[mace]

[QUOTE=dabvu2498;2750573 For my money, if the umpire can't make a determination of "ordinary effort" by the time the ball is at it's apex, infield fly rule should not be called. By the time the call was made last night, the runners were already hung out to dry, so to speak.
[/QUOTE]

Yes. This was the crux of the problem. I thought the ball was too far into the outfield to be an ordinary infield fly, but could still have accepted the call if it had been made in time--that is, early and clearly enough to let the runners get back to their bases and not worry about being doubled up. That's the whole point of the rule. Making the call as indefensibly late as the umpire did in this instance, it served absolutely no purpose.

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

I would simply like to see them change it to allow for the possibility of a real error, such as last night's. Basically, if the ball is not caught, all runners automatically advance. Make them make the catch.

That's a great idea! Of all the talk that this issue has generated, I haven't heard that idea brought up 'till now.

[AtomicDumpling]

Originally Posted by Jpup

I hated the call, but it was the right one. It happens many times during the season. Harold Reynolds explained it with video last night on MLB Network. If you watch the explanation, you will agree that the right call was made.

Right after Reynolds spoke, Billy Ripken pretty much destroyed Reynolds' argument.

[Jpup]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

Right after Reynolds spoke, Billy Ripken pretty much destroyed Reynolds' argument.

I didn't see that, but I think Reynolds is right. Vasgersian agreed with him as well.

I don't like the rule and think it should be changed, but they got the call right.

[AtomicDumpling]

Originally Posted by Jpup

I didn't see that, but I think Reynolds is right. Vasgersian agreed with him as well.

I don't like the rule and think it should be changed, but they got the call right.

Reynolds and Vasgersian are certainly not authorities on the subject.

No they didn't get the call right, that much is almost universally agreed by people who truly understand the rule and the spirit of the rule. If there is no reasonable possibility of turning a double play by letting the ball drop then the infield fly rule should not be invoked. The Cardinals had zero chance of turning a double play on that ball. They would have been extremely lucky to get even one out, much less two outs. They ended up getting nobody out at all after the ball dropped and the runners advanced easily. Calling the infield fly on that play was beyond ludicrous. Absolutely embarrassing.

It was a black eye for baseball that will make famous blown call highlight reels for decades.

[AtomicDumpling]

I don't have a problem with getting rid of the rule. It is a pretty dumb rule.

If they do get rid of the rule it shouldn't cause too much of a spike in double plays. If the runners are properly trained and are paying attention the defense is still likely to get only one out if they let the ball drop in most situations anyway.

By letting the ball drop you are hoping to catch the baserunners napping. They would definitely get the runner closest to where the ball lands because he will have to go back to the base, but they won't get any other runners most of the time (definitely not the hitter).

It would add a lot of excitement to the infield pop-ups but won't make it a cinch to get a double play on all of them.

Getting rid of the rule would eliminate the possibility of umpires screwing up the judgement call like that fool did yesterday. Putting the play entirely in the hands of the players instead of the umpires is an improvement.