Should Dusty Baker Receive an Extension?

[lollipopcurve]

I'm sick of losing. I'm sick of looking up and seeing 1990 as the last year this organization had any relevance. I don't want to turn into another Chicago or Cleveland -- where you have fans who are born, live, and die never seeing their favorite team hoisting a trophy or raising a banner. Accepting good regular seasons and poor postseasons as positive things embraces mediocrity.

It's time to go find someone who can bring this team to better things than mediocrity while there is still a chance.

Please. Winning 97 games is not mediocrity.

We are not all entitled to be king.

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by lollipopcurve

Please. Winning 97 games is not mediocrity.

We are not all entitled to be king.

8th most wins in team history, in 131 seasons and yet some still want the video game version of perfection.

[jojo]

There are a lot worse things that could happen then the Reds giving Dusty a 1 year deal.

[RedsManRick]

I don't think a team with our budget can be managed with such tactical inefficiency and expect to come on top at the end of the day.

I really do respect what Dusty brings to the table. That this team won so many games in the regular season is a testament to that to some degree. But when the rubber hits the road, you need to be able to maximize your chances to win an individual game and, like Ron Washington, Dusty just isn't up to par in that area.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

I don't think a team with our budget can be managed with such tactical inefficiency and expect to come on top at the end of the day.

I really do respect what Dusty brings to the table. That this team won so many games in the regular season is a testament to that to some degree. But when the rubber hits the road, you need to be able to maximize your chances to win an individual game and, like Ron Washington, Dusty just isn't up to par in that area.

So Ron Washington can't win an individual game, however he can take his team to the WS two years in a row? That's ridiculous.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor

Think of it this way:

Would you keep around a salesman who is constantly able to drum up new potential clients, but is absolutely incapable of closing the sale?

That's Dusty Baker. When the games count the most, he gets outmanaged and his teams find creative ways to lose.

I'm sick of losing. I'm sick of looking up and seeing 1990 as the last year this organization had any relevance. I don't want to turn into another Chicago or Cleveland -- where you have fans who are born, live, and die never seeing their favorite team hoisting a trophy or raising a banner. Accepting good regular seasons and poor postseasons as positive things embraces mediocrity.

It's time to go find someone who can bring this team to better things than mediocrity while there is still a chance.

Don't you think that teams typically need to build towards the levels of success that you are looking for? The Reds are on the upswing, give it time. Everyone wants to blame the manager and its pretty lame. You want to moan about lineup construction and whatever. All I know is I saw our "big bats" up a whole lot yesterday with men on and they didn't come through. Not sure that Dusty got up in those situations.

[757690]

I wonder if the Reds lost the first two games, then won the next two, the lost the final game, would the same number of people want Dusty fired?

[KoryMac5]

Not a great question to ask fans a day after losing a playoff series, some folks are still on the bridge contemplating the jump. I think it depends on the price. I would not be willing to pay Baker what some of the elite coaches in the league make but I do feel he has the support of the FO and the team. Overall I think he does a pretty good job with the Reds and would like to see him back.

[SunDeck]

Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor

Think of it this way:

Would you keep around a salesman who is constantly able to drum up new potential clients, but is absolutely incapable of closing the sale?

That's Dusty Baker. When the games count the most, he gets outmanaged and his teams find creative ways to lose.

I'm sick of losing. I'm sick of looking up and seeing 1990 as the last year this organization had any relevance. I don't want to turn into another Chicago or Cleveland -- where you have fans who are born, live, and die never seeing their favorite team hoisting a trophy or raising a banner. Accepting good regular seasons and poor postseasons as positive things embraces mediocrity.

It's time to go find someone who can bring this team to better things than mediocrity while there is still a chance.

Winning the division is mediocre?

Bobby Cox had teams in the post season 16 times, winning 1 World Series.
I have a hard time saying winning only once is his fault.


True, Baker has been in 6 post seasons, with no WS wins. However, that performance is not too far shy of the following group; which of these guys do you not want to be your manager?

Whitey Herzog: 6 Playoffs, 1 WS win
Davey Johnson: 6:1
Charlie Manuel: 6:1
Jim Leyland: 7:1
Lou Piniella: 7:1
Mike Scioscia: 6:1
Earl Weaver: 6:1
Billy Martin: 5:1

OK, I would never have wanted Billy, either, but the rest of these guys are pretty good.

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by SunDeck

Winning the division is mediocre?

Bobby Cox had teams in the post season 16 times, winning 1 World Series.
I have a hard time saying winning only once is his fault.


True, Baker has been in 6 post seasons, with no WS wins. However, that performance is not too far shy of the following group; which of these guys do you not want to be your manager?

Whitey Herzog: 6 Playoffs, 1 WS win
Davey Johnson: 6:1
Charlie Manuel: 6:1
Jim Leyland: 7:1
Lou Piniella: 7:1
Mike Scioscia: 6:1
Earl Weaver: 6:1
Billy Martin: 5:1

OK, I would never have wanted Billy, either, but the rest of these guys are pretty good.

Pennants and banners are all that matter, the rest is just an excuse to spend time in the yard on a nice summer evening.

Or so I've been told.

[RedsManRick]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

So Ron Washington can't win an individual game, however he can take his team to the WS two years in a row? That's ridiculous.

And why did the Rangers lose those series?

A GM can build a team that nearly any manager could get the playoffs. But nothing the GM does can make up for a manager making poor choices when the outcome of a single game means the season. I'm generally of the opinion that you need a manager who doesn't screw up the clubhouse or abuse your pitching staff to win in the regular season and one who can maximize every opportunity to win individual games in the playoffs.

I'm completely open to the idea that neither team would have been there in the first place without their respective manager. And I recognize that the biggest driver of success of success is the execution by the players, which is largely out of the managers' hands. But when teams lose playoff games because of tactical errors that could have easily been avoided, I can't help but wonder about the alternative.

As I've said elsewhere. I'm not advocating getty rid of Dusty for the sake of getting rid of him. But I'd give serious consideration to the alternatives with an eye towards managers who are superior tactically. The guy I really wanted was Francona (assuming we couldn't steal Davey Johnson back from Washington). I like Acta on the tactical side, but have no clue about the human side of things with him. I certainly do NOT want Bobby V or Jim Tracy.

[AtomicDumpling]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

So Ron Washington can't win an individual game, however he can take his team to the WS two years in a row? That's ridiculous.

Ron Washington is a terrible manager. Just because a team is good does not mean the manager is good. Dusty Baker is an average manager. Ron Washington is one of the absolute worst. Totally clueless. Just listen to the guy.

[AtomicDumpling]

Originally Posted by Kc61

This is really unfair. Dusty doesn't acquire the talent. Dusty didn't sign Cairo to a two year deal. He didn't acquire Valdez to replace Janish. Those are front office moves.

With a five man bench, you have to play your subs sometimes. When Votto and Rolen were both out, he had to use Cairo. When Cozart was out, he had to use Valdez. When both CFers were out, he used Valdez.

When he rested guys at their positions, he used Cairo and Valdez. He didn't acquire them.

You think Valdez and Cairo would be on the team in 2012 if Dusty Baker didn't want them there? No way. Those guys were there because Dusty Baker wanted them there. Jocketty could easily replace those guys at any time. They were both literally in the bottom five worst players in the major leagues this season offensively and they are both poor defensive players too according to UZR. If Dusty wanted them gone they would be gone.

Why do so many people want to give Dusty a pass when it comes to deciding which players are acquired and which players make the team? Dusty and Walt work together to build the team. Walt goes and gets players that Dusty wants. I don't buy the excuse that Dusty is forced to use players he doesn't want on the team. That is not an excuse based in reality.

Putting Wilson Valdez in the lineup for 200+ plate appearances (half of them in the 2 slot) this season is just asinine. If you absolutely must put him in the lineup then put him at the bottom or else you will look like a complete fool. Valdez had the worst OPS in major league baseball in 2012 (min. 150 PAs). He has a .594 career OPS and is a below average fielder. His .463 OPS in 2012 was nearly 300 points lower than pitcher Mike Leake's .749 OPS. Even pitcher Mat Latos had a better OPS than Wilson Valdez.

[Superdude]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

You think Valdez and Cairo would be on the team in 2012 if Dusty Baker didn't want them there? No way. Those guys were there because Dusty Baker wanted them there. Jocketty could easily replace those guys at any time. They were both literally in the bottom five worst players in the major leagues this season offensively and they are both poor defensive players too according to UZR. If Dusty wanted them gone they would be gone.

Why do so many people want to give Dusty a pass when it comes to deciding which players are acquired and which players make the team? Dusty and Walt work together to build the team. Walt goes and gets players that Dusty wants. I don't buy the excuse that Dusty is forced to use players he doesn't want on the team. That is not an excuse based in reality.

Putting Wilson Valdez in the lineup for 200+ plate appearances (half of them in the 2 slot) this season is just asinine. If you absolutely must put him in the lineup then put him at the bottom or else you will look like a complete fool. Valdez had the worst OPS in major league baseball in 2012 (min. 150 PAs). He has a .594 career OPS and is a below average fielder. His .463 OPS in 2012 was nearly 300 points lower than pitcher Mike Leake's .749 OPS. Even pitcher Mat Latos had a better OPS than Wilson Valdez.

We had plenty of reason to believe both of those guys would be decent role players. Give any mediocre player 200 sporadic at bats, and sometimes it's just going to end up the way it did. H Rod was out for a lot of the year, Gregorius is still viewed as a potential starter and needed regular at bats...who else was supposed to fill those 200 plate appearances?

[AtomicDumpling]

Originally Posted by Superdude

We had plenty of reason to believe both of those guys would be decent role players. Give any mediocre player 200 sporadic at bats, and sometimes it's just going to end up the way it did. H Rod was out for a lot of the year, Gregorius is still viewed as a potential starter and needed regular at bats...who else was supposed to fill those 200 plate appearances?

There are dozens of players throughout baseball that could have been acquired very cheaply at any time who would be upgrades for Valdez and Cairo. Replacing the worst player in the league is actually pretty easy to do. It wasn't done because Dusty wanted to stick with Valdez and Cairo. If he had wanted to replace them they would have been quickly and easily replaced just like they replaced Willie Harris with Xavier Paul.

To replace Valdez or Cairo you don't need to sell the farm. You likely won't get a star player to replace them, but a player worthy of being in the major leagues is not all that hard to get. Sometimes all it takes is cash considerations or a minor league journeyman PTBNL. The bar for upgrading the Reds bench was very low.