Trade Mesoraco?

[Dan]

Originally Posted by Chip R

I think some people forget Mes wasn't a 5 year veteran who actually had a history of stats to live up to instead of a rookie learning the toughest position on the field. It's a learning process and he's not going to be Johnny Bench right out of the gate. Sure he could have done better but how about cutting him some slack?

This is about where I'm at. I can see the view of those who want to trade him, but Mez hasn't ever shown that he takes quickly to the next level in his move through the minor leagues. He took a full season at Rookie, A and A+ to establish himself, then half a season at AA and AAA each to get his feet under him before he was finally productive. Expecting him to produce in the majors immediately is probably unrealistic given his natural learning curve. I'd expect him to probably take until the middle of next season before he starts showing some productivity. He seems like a competitor and a hard worker, so I have no doubt he'll be working like crazy to get there.

[Always Red]

Hanigan's a valuable guy, but not a full time catcher. As noted, his hitting skills are already starting to diminish.

I think the Reds really want Mes to take the next step up. I think all the Navarro playing at the end of the year was just getting Dioner ready for the playoffs, as at this point he is a better bat than Mes.

We know Navarro is a AAAA player, guys like him will always be available and up and down during the season.

I'd be shocked if the Reds trade Mes, unless its for another young catcher.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by mattfeet

Checked it. Mesoraco has 165 AB's this year so 2012 was his rookie year.

Even if he had only gotten 129 (130 is the limit), he wouldn't have been ROY eligible for 2013 because he spent more than 45 days on the active roster. But I think it says it all that despite being on the roster for every day but what, 16 for his concussion/suspension/demotion, he got 15 more at bats than Miguel Cairo and 29 fewer than Wilson Valdez.

The Reds have done nothing but show zero confidence in him. Mat Latos is a notoriously slow starter. Mesoraco gets yanked as his catcher before April is even over. I am sure that helped his confidence. I just don't know that the Reds have done anything to show Mesoraco that they have any faith at all in him. That can't be sitting well in his head.

[westofyou]

That can't be sitting well in his head.

Then maybe he'll actually perform better and then he AND the Reds can feel good about Devin.

As of now, he's hardly been the second coming of Joe Oliver much alone JB.

That said hell no I don't trade him

[dougdirt]

I don't think many guys under 25 are out there performing all that well in a situation where they play an entire year and get 165 at bats with no options of being used against guys you may succeed against (like a normal platoon where one guy gets to feast on lefties or righties or something like that).

[Always Red]

I'm sure that Devin's feelings are wounded somewhat, but I am also rock sure that Devin knows that this is a hard game for hard men, the future is promised to no one (not named Bryce Harper) and the time to prove yourself is when you get a chance, whatever chance that is.

[CySeymour]

For a guy who you have already poured a lot of resources into as a first round pick, 54 games in a season is not nearly enough time to determine if a guy is going to cut it in the big leagues. If they weren't going to play him much at all last season, they should have demoted him to AAA so he could play. The Reds have to decide if they are going to play Mes more next season. If Walt and his staff decide that he does need to play more, then he needs to direct Dusty to give him more playing time.

The ying and yang about Mes and Hanny is almost all of Hanigan's value is tied to his defense, but with Mes most of his value is tied to his bat. Mes looked overmatched most of the time at the plate. A lot of rookies do when they first get to the big leagues. The only way he will figure it out, is to get plenty of at-bats. Anything less then about 300 PA's for Mesoraco will be a huge missed opportunity for the team.

The Reds won the Central by 9 games in 2012. Would giving Mesoraco 20 more starts have cost them 9 wins? Of course not.

[mdccclxix]

Found this interesting bit at reds.com:

Hanigan's backup, Devin Mesoraco, struggled and was demoted in late August for 10 days. Mesoraco still has some growing to do at the position, but he remains in the club's plans. He did a good job mainly working with Bailey and Leake, but others weren't comfortable with him behind the plate, namely Chapman. The Reds were fortunate that Minor League signee Navarro stepped up when Mesoraco faltered. Navarro could be part of the depth if he's retained.

Not that it can't change, but the fact that Chapman isn't comfortable with Mez is apparently limiting his playing time. You'd think that a move to the rotation for Chapman could also mean increased playing time for Mez. I predict more gridlock and status quo on this issue. Chapman is too good and so is Hanigan in the current configuration.

[Scrap Irony]

Bailey took off with Hanigan as his catcher. Arroyo, Latos, Cueto-- all did well with Hanigan.

At the beginning of the season, Latos struggled with Mesoraco as his personal catcher. Bailey pitched decently with Mesoraco, but wasn't great at all. Leake struggled for the most part with Mes as his personal catcher.

While it's only one year of (limited) andecdotal evidence, it doesn't look as if the pitching staff as a whole pitched well with Mesoraco. His CERA was 4.19 during the 2012 season, while Hanigan led the league with a 3.05 CERA. Mes wasn't any better in 2011.

He may take off and learn how to call a game, frame pitches, and do all the little things catchers do to help their pitchers, but, so far, it seems as if he has a long way to go. I suspect he's more available than many on this site seem to think.

[REDREAD]

Originally Posted by mdccclxix

Found this interesting bit at reds.com:

Not that it can't change, but the fact that Chapman isn't comfortable with Mez is apparently limiting his playing time. You'd think that a move to the rotation for Chapman could also mean increased playing time for Mez. I predict more gridlock and status quo on this issue. Chapman is too good and so is Hanigan in the current configuration.

That is interesting.
I wonder if it stemmed from Chapman's appearances earlier in the year, when Mez was only calling fastballs because "no one was hitting them".
IMO, Chapman has a lot of maturing to do too.
But I can see why the pitchers would prefer to pitch to Hannigan.. he's got great came calling skills.. Mez is still a work in progress (I still think Mez will find success, not as the cleanup hitter some dreamed of, but a decent #6 type hitter, above average offensive catcher).

[mdccclxix]

It's worth considering if Mez can really be one of those do it all catchers on offense and defense. There's maybe 3-4 in the league? I think he has the desire, he just may need a lot of patience. I haven't known what to think of the idea, but AAA seems like a better idea now than if has in the past.

[mdccclxix]

Carlos Ruiz didn't catch on at the MLB level until age 27. I think we could expect something similar for Mez?

[Scrap Irony]

Originally Posted by REDREAD

IMO, Chapman has a lot of maturing to do too.

Why?

Chapman was among the best pitchers in baseball last season. Two brief hiccups and a tired arm notwithstanding, Dude got it done as no one in the history of the game has.

I don't care if he carries a blankie and pacifier to the mound-- if he's as good as last season, you give him pretty much what he wants.

[Benihana]

I haven't combed through the pages of this thread yet, but you know what might be interesting? Trading Hanigan.

It's a big sell high move, and obviously a big gamble. I'm not necessarily advocating it, but if Hanigan (plus a pitching prospect) could bring us a major bat for LF, CF, or 3B, it might be worth it. Clears the decks for Mez and you keep Navarro as a backup in case Mez faulters or pitchers like Chapman don't get comfortable with him.

Look at Yadier Molina- great defensive catchers that can get on base are a very valuable commodity. Hanigan proved this year that he can do exactly that. Maybe some team is willing to overpay for that?

Here's one idea:

1. Ludwick wants Cuddyer-type deal (3 years or $20M) - too expensive for the Reds
2. Rangers are in search of catching help http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/1...offseason.html
3. Trade Hanigan and one of Stubbs/Heisey to Texas for Nelson Cruz and $5MM

Replicate Ludwick's production on a 1 year, $5MM deal. Personally I prefer Justin Upton but Arizona isn't in need of catching help.

[Kc61]

I wouldn't trade Hanigan. I wouldn't trade Mes. I would try to keep Navarro.

I would start Mes at AAA for two months next year. My guess is he'd destroy AAA pitching and learn some more about catching.

Baseball fans can be so short-term oriented some times. Mes is still a very young catcher. Give him time, don't give up so fast.

The upside for Mes is still great. Yes, some guys burst on the MLB scene, but some don't.

Give Mes two months of regular AAA playing time next year, then if he's doing well, promote him to the big club. My guess is you'll see a much better ball player in the second half of 2013 and onward.