Better shortstop Dave Concepcion or Ozzie Smith?

[redlegs2370]

As I sit here and read all of the nonsense from the delusional Cardinal fans I go back to my childhood when I would debate with Cardinal fans who had the better shortstop: Dave Concepcion or Ozzie Smith. Well in my book it was Davey unless you wanted a gymnast to do flips on the field. Davey will never get the credit he deserves in baseball, except for Cincinnati fans.

Comparing both players stats I can't see where Smith is better and seeing that Smith is in the Hall of Fame Concepcion most certainly should. Both players played 19 seasons and Concepcion played in 9 post season series (4 WS) & Smith played in 8 post season series (3 WS)

Concepcion's stats (.267 BA) (101 HR) (950 RBI) (2,326 H) (.971 Field%)
Smiths stats (.262 BA) ( 28 HR) (793 RBI) (2,460 H) (.965 Field%)

Davey beats him in 4 of the 5 categories, plus post season Concepcion had (.297 BA) & Smith (.236) in roughly same amount of games.

I think without reservation Concepcion is better and most definitely deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

[10xWSChamps]

This is a great site for intelligent baseball talk

Liar!

Offensively they were similar players but on the bases and defensively Ozzie was head and shoulders above Dave

Fielding % isn't a very good statistic.

[foxfire123]

Concepcion, hands down.

[Griffey012]

I am too young to have watched Concepcion. But I know from watching Ozzie that he was quite the entertainer, where I am guessing Concepcion was more of just a baseball player. I know Ozzie was a whizz in the field, but unfortunately I have never seen Concepcion play. So I can't make a fair assessment.

[redlegs2370]

Originally Posted by 10xWSChamps

Liar!

Offensively they were similar players but on the bases and defensively Ozzie was head and shoulders above Dave

Fielding % isn't a very good statistic.

Davey invented the bounce on Astroturf. He pioneered how the game was played defensively from the shortstop position. How can you say fielding % isn't a very good statistic? Offensively similar? I will agree with you but Davey gets the nod because he was clutch in post season and he drove in more runs.

[Razzle]

Originally Posted by redlegs2370

Davey invented the bounce on Astroturf. He pioneered how the game was played defensively from the shortstop position. How can you say fielding % isn't a very good statistic? Offensively similar? I will agree with you but Davey gets the nod because he was clutch in post season and he drove in more runs.

Fielding percentage is a pretty awful way to measure a defensive player. Who would you rather have a guy who makes every play with horrible range or a guy who gets to 20% more balls, but makes a few errors. The latter guy is going to help his team more often than not, but fielding percentage can't determine that. This is a pretty drastic example, but just used to exemplify the point.

[redlegs2370]

Originally Posted by Razzle

Fielding percentage is a pretty awful way to measure a defensive player. Who would you rather have a guy who makes every play with horrible range or a guy who gets to 20% more balls, but makes a few errors. The latter guy is going to help his team more often than not, but fielding percentage can't determine that. This is a pretty drastic example, but just used to exemplify the point.

Are you saying Concepcion didn't have great range? I would say they were similar on range. Point blank Dave Concepcion was as good of defensive shortstop as Ozzie Smith and just an all around better baseball player. If you polled Bench, Rose, Morgan, Griffey, Perez, Oester, Driessen, etc they would 100% say they would rather have Concepcion at shortstop on their team than Ozzie Smith.

[10xWSChamps]

Originally Posted by redlegs2370

Davey invented the bounce on Astroturf. He pioneered how the game was played defensively from the shortstop position. How can you say fielding % isn't a very good statistic? Offensively similar? I will agree with you but Davey gets the nod because he was clutch in post season and he drove in more runs.

As for fielding %, pretty much what Razzle said. Ozzie had tremendous range and got called for errors on balls no one would have got close to. You can't put their defense inside of a vacuum, the further a ball is hit away from where the shortstop is positioned at the more I want ozzie.

Besides, Ozzie actually has a higher fielding % (.978) So even if you want to argue that F% is worthwhile, it still doesn't help your argument.

What exactly do you mean when you say he invented the "bounce" on astroturf?

Dave had more pop in his bat and was an outstanding defensive SS, Ozzie was a SB machine and generational defensive SS.

I think Ozzie's popularity and celebrity was probably helped by playing on the Cardinals and the opposite would be true for Dave. But, it is what it is. Pujols missed a couple MVPs because Bonds roided so much.

[Razzle]

Originally Posted by redlegs2370

Are you saying Concepcion didn't have great range? I would say they were similar on range. Point blank Dave Concepcion was as good of defensive shortstop as Ozzie Smith and just an all around better baseball player. If you polled Bench, Rose, Morgan, Griffey, Perez, Oester, Driessen, etc they would 100% say they would rather have Concepcion at shortstop on their team than Ozzie Smith.

That's not what I'm saying at all, just showing how fielding percentage can be seen as flawed. I don't really have a say in the matter as I am too young to have watched Concepcion play at all and I didn't really even get to see Smith in his prime. All I can go on is what I've been told and that wouldn't really say much since I've lived in St. Louis most of my life.

[Defacto]

Ozzie wasn't the greatest offensive SS ever, he was one of the better defensive SS in baseball. Look at Ozzie's and Concepcion's WAR(Wins above Replacement), Ozzie's is 64.6 and Concepcion's is 33.6. I think Ozzie was the better SS of the two, but I think Concepcion deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

[Griffey012]

Originally Posted by redlegs2370

Are you saying Concepcion didn't have great range? I would say they were similar on range. Point blank Dave Concepcion was as good of defensive shortstop as Ozzie Smith and just an all around better baseball player. If you polled Bench, Rose, Morgan, Griffey, Perez, Oester, Driessen, etc they would 100% say they would rather have Concepcion at shortstop on their team than Ozzie Smith.

He was just making a hypothetical example of why fielding percentage is flawed. He wasn't specifying players. It's a well known fallacy of fielding %

[texasdave]

What exactly do you mean when you say he invented the "bounce" on astroturf?

It has been said that if you threw the ball with overspin it would pick up speed when it bounced off the Astroturf and get to the first baseman more quickly. This was the 70s so Astroturf and speed were more prominent. If you could get the ball to first base quicker it would be a huge advantage. That is what I remember. I don't know if that is true or not.

This is a quote from Joe Morgan.

The other innovation was Concepcion's one-hop throw to first base on AstroTurf. You know the one-hop throw you'll see shortstops make from deep in the hole? Davey started that. Sometimes he'd make the throw to Perez from short left field. Concepcion would practice those one-hop throws to learn the best place to bounce the ball.

[Yadi for Mayor]

It's really not even close

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...on=SS#fielding

Ozzie over 18 years is a 70 war player

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...94&position=SS

Concepcion is a 45 war player.

In particular notice the difference between Runs above average UZR, Ozzie 239, Concepcion 50.

[couch_manager]

Originally Posted by 10xWSChamps

I think Ozzie's popularity and celebrity was probably helped by playing on the Cardinals and the opposite would be true for Dave.

Dave's lack of popularity was because he didn't play for the Cardinals?

Ozzie's popularity was mostly due to his backflips.

[redlegs2370]

Originally Posted by texasdave

It has been said that if you threw the ball with overspin it would pick up speed when it bounced off the Astroturf and get to the first baseman more quickly. This was the 70s so Astroturf and speed were more prominent. If you could get the ball to first base quicker it would be a huge advantage. That is what I remember. I don't know if that is true or not.

This is a quote from Joe Morgan.

Thanks for the input Texas Dave. You put into words what I was thinking but couldn't quite get it out. Also great quote from Morgan. They both were great shortstops.