Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

[AtomicDumpling]

Originally Posted by backbencher

If you believe that there is a "clear" argument that Jocketty failed to improve the team, make it. If you have a 2008-2011 move that should have been made, identify it; it shouldn't be hard with the benefit of hindsight.

The argument has already been made many times -- the key pieces of the 2012 team were already here before Jocketty took over. It wasn't until 2012 that Jocketty finally took action and added to the strong core that was already in place when he came to town. The only player that Jocketty obtained in his first four seasons as Reds GM who is a key component of the 2012 team and beyond is Aroldis Chapman. Every other move he made was for temporary fixes or roster filler.

Walt Jocketty didn't build this team. It was built for him by his predecessors. It is fair to give Jocketty some real credit for keeping things on course and avoiding screwing things up, but it is not accurate to say he built this team into a contender. Only in the past year has he finally found some ways to bolster the core of the team he inherited.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

The argument has already been made many times -- the key pieces of the 2012 team were already here before Jocketty took over. It wasn't until 2012 that Jocketty finally took action and added to the strong core that was already in place when he came to town. The only player that Jocketty obtained in his first four seasons as Reds GM who is a key component of the 2012 team and beyond is Aroldis Chapman. Every other move he made was for temporary fixes or roster filler.

Walt Jocketty didn't build this team. It was built for him by his predecessors. It is fair to give Jocketty some real credit for keeping things on course and avoiding screwing things up, but it is not accurate to say he built this team into a contender. Only in the past year has he finally found some ways to bolster the core of the team he inherited.

Let me ask you this...what do you think happened in 2011-12 that woke him up? Did his boss demand that he do something? Did he go to GM school at community college over the winter? Did he get GMing for Dummies for Christmas?

The guy has a pretty good track record and then gets to Cincy and doesn't make many headlining transactions for a couple of years. Maybe there is more to it than just being asleep.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

The argument has already been made many times -- the key pieces of the 2012 team were already here before Jocketty took over. It wasn't until 2012 that Jocketty finally took action and added to the strong core that was already in place when he came to town. The only player that Jocketty obtained in his first four seasons as Reds GM who is a key component of the 2012 team and beyond is Aroldis Chapman. Every other move he made was for temporary fixes or roster filler.

Walt Jocketty didn't build this team. It was built for him by his predecessors. It is fair to give Jocketty some real credit for keeping things on course and avoiding screwing things up, but it is not accurate to say he built this team into a contender. Only in the past year has he finally found some ways to bolster the core of the team he inherited.

Don't forget, he also hired your unsung hero during the asleep years.

[AtomicDumpling]

Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey

You are ignoring that anyone in baseball could have had Encarnacion for nothing. That's when it was time to give the trade a final grade. The Reds won. Everything after that is irrelevant to the trade itself. Like I said, the Reds could have re-acquired EE and used him as Rolen's backup if they wanted. Think about that for a second.

So, IMO, you can argue that the Reds erred in not re-acquiring EE when he was available for nothing. But arguing they lost the trade is a big stretch and revisionist history.

I never argued the Reds lost the trade. Where did you get that idea? I have said all along at least a dozen times in this thread alone that the trade was a wash. The trade was costly for both teams.

Edwin would have been far too expensive for the Reds to pick him up as Rolen's backup. The Reds would have had to pay EE several million dollars and they had already invested many millions in Rolen.

I disagree that any team could have gotten EE for nothing. That is not accurate. When EE was first placed on waivers in June 2010 so the Jays could send him on a stint to the minors. In order to claim him the Reds would have had to pay his pro-rated $5 million salary. After his contract was over after the 2010 season he was claimed on waivers by the A's, one of the first teams that could have claimed him. All that claim garnered them was the right to try to attempt to work out a contract with Edwin or they could have gone to arbitration and been forced to give him a raise over his previous $5 million salary. They couldn't come to a financial agreement on a contract with EE so he was released again a few days later. He then signed a $6 million contract with the Jays -- that is a long way from being picked up for nothing. When he became a free agent he chose to sign with the Blue Jays. It was up to him to choose which team to play for. He could have gone anywhere he wanted. I am sure the Reds were last on his list. No team had the right to just pick him up for nothing. He was an expensive player who had the right to negotiate with any team and he chose to stay where he was comfortable in Toronto. He would not be a Blue Jay right now if the Reds had not traded him to Toronto.

[AtomicDumpling]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

Don't forget, he also hired your unsung hero during the asleep years.

Yes, I would argue that hiring Bryan Price is the best move he has made since taking over the Reds. I am sure Dusty Baker had some key input into that decision as well.

[REDREAD]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

The Reds traded away a 26 year old above average major league hitter for a 34 year old injury-plagued player earning more than 4x as much money. Then watched as that young hitter eventually developed into a star for another team while the expensive player they acquired struggled to stay healthy enough to play..

I see it as the Reds traded away a one dimensional 3b that could not field for a 3b that could field and hit and who helped lead them to two divisional titles.
Eventually the one dimensional journeyman blossomed into a productive DH, but he would've never gotten that chance in Cincy.

Let me ask you this.. suppose hypothetically the Jays would been willing us to give EdE right now. All we'd have to do is pay him and agree to keep him on the roster for the remaining 3 years of his contract. We would not be allowed to trade Votto to "make room for him".. Would you do it.. (EdE is owed 27 million over the next 3 years). I would not do it, because he's a bad fit for an NL team, especially the Reds.

[AtomicDumpling]

Originally Posted by REDREAD

I see it as the Reds traded away a one dimensional 3b that could not field for a 3b that could field and hit and who helped lead them to two divisional titles.
Eventually the one dimensional journeyman blossomed into a productive DH, but he would've never gotten that chance in Cincy.

Let me ask you this.. suppose hypothetically the Jays would been willing us to give EdE right now. All we'd have to do is pay him and agree to keep him on the roster for the remaining 3 years of his contract. We would not be allowed to trade Votto to "make room for him".. Would you do it.. (EdE is owed 27 million over the next 3 years). I would not do it, because he's a bad fit for an NL team, especially the Reds.

Yes I would take him. I would play him in left field. He would fill that hole nicely.

If the Reds still had him he would have been a good option in left field all along. I may have traded him to acquire a player that fits the Reds needs better, or perhaps some prospects.

[Blitz Dorsey]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

I never argued the Reds lost the trade. Where did you get that idea? I have said all along at least a dozen times in this thread alone that the trade was a wash. The trade was costly for both teams.

Edwin would have been far too expensive for the Reds to pick him up as Rolen's backup. The Reds would have had to pay EE several million dollars and they had already invested many millions in Rolen.

I disagree that any team could have gotten EE for nothing. That is not accurate. When EE was first placed on waivers in June 2010 so the Jays could send him on a stint to the minors. In order to claim him the Reds would have had to pay his pro-rated $5 million salary. After his contract was over after the 2010 season he was claimed on waivers by the A's, one of the first teams that could have claimed him. All that claim garnered them was the right to try to attempt to work out a contract with Edwin or they could have gone to arbitration and been forced to give him a raise over his previous $5 million salary. They couldn't come to a financial agreement on a contract with EE so he was released again a few days later. He then signed a $6 million contract with the Jays -- that is a long way from being picked up for nothing. When he became a free agent he chose to sign with the Blue Jays. It was up to him to choose which team to play for. He could have gone anywhere he wanted. I am sure the Reds were last on his list. No team had the right to just pick him up for nothing. He was an expensive player who had the right to negotiate with any team and he chose to stay where he was comfortable in Toronto. He would not be a Blue Jay right now if the Reds had not traded him to Toronto.

You explained that very well, but I think we can all agree that the Jays would not have put Encarnacion on waivers if they truly believed in him at the time. $2 million for the rest of the season wouldn't be much money for a decent player. Only problem is no one in MLB viewed Encarnacion as a decent player, including the Jays. For some reason, things magically changed for him in the coming years. Maybe I've seen too much of this in the last couple decades and I'm jaded, but I think you know what I chalk EE's immense improvement up to. I don't want to say you'd be naive to believe otherwise; that wouldn't be fair. It's merely my opinion.

[M2]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

By that logic you could say any of the other moves the Reds made were brilliant as well. The Reds won so every move must have been perfect right?

Rolen was the catalyst for the late 2009 turnaround and a critical component to the 2010 division title. Those events set the foundation on which the 2012 Reds were built. Again, no Rolen and a fire sale might have been on the near horizon. Acting like 2012 happened in a vacuum is, IMO, a grievous error.

Plus, Rolen was a perfectly acceptable vanilla player in 2012.

Though my point about being the team with the titles rather than the one which clipped more coupons is that no one cares about the contract prices when you win, not that it makes all moves good moves. I'd have gladly seen the Reds pay Rolen triple what he made for the same Rolen-related performance and impact. If he had played like Encarnacion in 2009-2011, then no amount of savings would have covered my disappointment. Perfect contract efficiency is a never-ending blind alley. Rolen made a serious positive difference for the Reds. Glad they traded for him and he's welcome to every dollar.

[Blitz Dorsey]

BTW, has Rolen officially retired? I know he was mulling it, but I don't think he's come to a final decision. Has anyone heard the latest?

He probably wouldn't want to do it, but I'd love to have him around as Frazier's backup for one final season if he'd be willing to sign for cheap. One last hurrah if you will.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey

BTW, has Rolen officially retired? I know he was mulling it, but I don't think he's come to a final decision. Has anyone heard the latest?

He probably wouldn't want to do it, but I'd love to have him around as Frazier's backup for one final season if he'd be willing to sign for cheap. One last hurrah if you will.

Scott Rolen has told the Reds he may play next season, but he isn't ready to make a final decision tweets Stark. The team wants him back in some role.

Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/cincin...0lSfT2xiU0q.99

ROLEN UPDATE: Both Jocketty and manager Dusty Baker have talked to Scott Rolen. Rolen has not officially retired or indicated he wants to play.

“I talked to Scotty the other day, and he doesn’t know,” Baker said. “If you don’t know, it’s hard for me to know for you. It’s hard for me to answer that question. There comes a point in time, you know, when you’re tired of paying as an older player. There comes a time when you’re also wrestling between still playing and your family wanting you home. So I just think that’s a decision that has to start with him.”

[Revering4Blue]

Originally Posted by 757690

The biggest problem with Bowden, O'Brien and Krivsky is that from 2001-2007 they were always going all in, trying to win the division each year, when in reality, the Reds were never close. What was needed was to sit back, restock the farm system and wait for the team to rebuild.

It cost the Reds millions in wasted contracts, a destruction of their farm system, MLB talent in Kearns, Lopez, Hamilton, etc, all for losing seasons they were destined to have regardless.

Jocketty was the first GM to have the patience to sit tight, keep all the team's prospects, and rebuild the foundation for long term success.

I have no doubt that if Jocketty wasn't the GM in 2008-9, some combination of Votto, Cueto, Bruce and Bailey, would have been traded for mediocre middle relief and starting pitching. Seriously, no trades or moves could have been made in those years to make the team a contender, and Jocketty was smart enough to understand that.

I look at it this way:

I'm fairly certain, judging by his "the losing stops now" mantra in April of '08, that Cast didn't have a clue just how far away this franchise was at the time.

To his credit, Jocketty was able to do what O'Brien - who didn't have a hope of being retained - and Krivsky - who unfortunately appeared to believe that the franchise could rebuild and contend simultaneously - were unable to do: Convince cast that best course of action was to continue to rebuild the foundation of the team for further success. In short: Winning now wasn't realistic. Thus, Jocketty was afforded the luxury of patience.

I believe that westofyou stated it best in a previous thread that Krivsky - who made two of the best deals (Arroyo and Phillips) in recent years - equates to Murray Cook and Jocketty - the master of turning spare parts into significant contributors = Bob Quinn.

[Roy Tucker]

I'm more of a results guy. And ever since 1999, the Reds,have seemed to have a team that was on the cusp of success. But it never happened.

Then Jocketty came on board. Took a couple years, but that breakthrough finally happened. Was it luck, skill, patience, or sleep, I don't know. But I'm glad it did and I don't think it was an accident.

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by Roy Tucker

I'm more of a results guy. And ever since 1999, the Reds,have seemed to have a team that was on the cusp of success. But it never happened.

Then Jocketty came on board. Took a couple years, but that breakthrough finally happened. Was it luck, skill, patience, or sleep, I don't know. But I'm glad it did and I don't think it was an accident.

Deliver the product and then audit the process achieving the delivery, sometimes it's a lucky thing sometimes it's meticulous minutia that equals domain knowledge

The key is does the delivery occur more than once it not?

I know I spent a good part of the last decade wondering how the Cardinals could trot that team out year in and year out with guys like Eckstein starting

It's all about pitching + stars + baseball players and that's what the Reds have been pulling off the past few years

[Blitz Dorsey]

Originally Posted by Roy Tucker

I'm more of a results guy. And ever since 1999, the Reds,have seemed to have a team that was on the cusp of success. But it never happened.

Then Jocketty came on board. Took a couple years, but that breakthrough finally happened. Was it luck, skill, patience, or sleep, I don't know. But I'm glad it did and I don't think it was an accident.

I'm with you on this. No way it was an accident. Especially not two division titles in three years. One lucky year might happen. Two divisional titles in 3 years are far from luck. That's just a damn good GM. Maybe he inherited a good situation. I think we'd all agree he did. But he sure made the most of it and continues to do so. I also like the way he handles his business. I like when GMs are professional. I'm not a fan of the brash, immature GMs (like Leatherpants).