Reds acquire Shin-Soo Choo and Jason Donald for Drew Stubbs and Didi Gregorious

[Roy Tucker]

In my business, I've worked with many brilliant people. Like, world-class, triple digit patents, state of the art, leader in the industry, wrote the RFCs kind of guys. I like to think I'm pretty smart, but I don't hold a candle to them. I've learned to listen very carefully to what they say and not as much as how they say it.

On the flip side, you have to be very careful as to who you expose them to. Sometimes customers or business types don't like being told how wrong they are in explicit and great detail. There is the message and then there is the way you deliver the message. These brilliant types get mad at me because I step in and say "what he really means is blah blah blah" and phrase things in a more palatable way. They go "yeah, that's what I said". But in the first case, the customer is ready to call security to throw us out and in the second case, they are happy as clams. Comes with being a middle child.

[Cooper]

Don't close the thread- stop reading it if you don't like it - i love it ...it's great theatre....and it's a really good match.

[thatcoolguy_22]

I would like to come to Doug's defense here. Regardless of whether he is right or wrong in how he stated his opinion, it's his. Take it for what its worth. However you need to understand that he follows the minors more closely than any other poster on this board (maybe Redsof72 follows reds guys more but not the whole top 500). To the point my buddy (who is an Orioles fan) knows of him and his minor league website. If Doug says Didi will eventually be better than Cozart, then I believe it until someone (or myself) can convince me otherwise. /rant

Sidenote- I have already spotted a few brand new Reds hats around Seoul. This is major sports news over here.


I am completely happy with the trade. Choo is exactly what this team needed and I can't wait for 2013's OD. Go Redlegs!!

[Scrap Irony]

Originally Posted by Roy Tucker

In my business, I've worked with many brilliant people. Like, world-class, triple digit patents, state of the art, leader in the industry, wrote the RFCs kind of guys. I like to think I'm pretty smart, but I don't hold a candle to them. I've learned to listen very carefully to what they say and not as much as how they say it.

On the flip side, you have to be very careful as to who you expose them to. Sometimes customers or business types don't like being told how wrong they are in explicit and great detail. There is the message and then there is the way you deliver the message. These brilliant types get mad at me because I step in and say "what he really means is blah blah blah" and phrase things in a more palatable way. They go "yeah, that's what I said". But in the first case, the customer is ready to call security to throw us out and in the second case, they are happy as clams. Comes with being a middle child.

In this analogy, I'm assuming doug is the brilliant person telling the rest of us how wrong we are about prospects.

If you meant it that way, that's fine.

However, because of his supposed brilliance, shouldn't his predictions stand up to sctrutiny days, weeks, months, or years later?

His predictions are no better-- and oft-times much worse-- than most of the minor league posters on this board.

If you couch yourself as some kind of expert, shouldn't you expect blowback when wrong?

Can you have it both ways?

[membengal]

Originally Posted by Cooper

Don't close the thread- stop reading it if you don't like it - i love it ...it's great theatre....and it's a really good match.

Agreed. And, frankly, probably necessary. Airing stuff out sometimes very helpful.

[Dan]

Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor

I still think it's cool that Venus is the only planet in the solar system that rotates clockwise.

I'm thinking The Hunger Games has a strong chance to win the Best Picture Oscar this year.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by Scrap Irony

In this analogy, I'm assuming doug is the brilliant person telling the rest of us how wrong we are about prospects.

If you meant it that way, that's fine.

However, because of his supposed brilliance, shouldn't his predictions stand up to sctrutiny days, weeks, months, or years later?

His predictions are no better-- and oft-times much worse-- than most of the minor league posters on this board.

If you couch yourself as some kind of expert, shouldn't you expect blowback when wrong?

Can you have it both ways?

IMO, "blowback" isn't what he's getting. He's getting jumped on. When people are going back and bringing up the Stewart-Cy Young thing several years after the fact just to dig that knife in a little bit deeper and twist is both petty and childish. And it's not an uncommon thing for it to be brought up by multiple posters. I'm done with this topic except to say freaking ease up guys.

[mth123]

Been pretty busy and haven't had time to reply, but I've read the whole thread so here goes:

Choo:

Huge upgrade. I think he'll be passable in CF and will be a huge upgrade to the offense. He gets on base, hits against RHP, his skillset would seem to work on the road in addition to GABP. I think it was M2 a whole bunch of posts back that mentioned John Jay. I think that may be a good comp. He adds productivity to the offense and does allright in CF. Of course, I'd expect about 20 to 30 more points of OBP and 40 or 50 more points of Slugging from Choo.

Stubbs:

Maybe the most timid player I've ever watched. He looks pleasing and smooth on defense, but pulls up and just doesn't make the catch far too often. He does go gap to gap really well, but isn't so hot going in and back IMO. On offense, he lets too many meatballs go by for a called strike and just doesn't have the ability to hit when he's behind in the count. He may get it together and become that power - speed force we all hoped for, but I don't think it would have ever happened in Cincy.

Didi/Cozart:

Put me down for thinking its a shame that Didi had to go, but you have to give up something to get something. I share the concerns about Cozart. I think he's a solid starting SS who adds an occassional homer and struggles to get on base. I've long compared him to Alex Gonzalez in his Marlin Days. He'll have years where he may be a borderline All Star and probably have a few as below average due mostly to things like BABIP or HR/FB rate. I am a skeptic about much improvement at his age. I'm actually concerned that he may have a Stubbslike career path. Older rookies are many times out of tricks by the time the reach the big leagues and when the league adjusts they have nothing to counter with. Cozart seems pretty baseball smart (much different than Stubbs) so I think he'll be OK, but probbaly not much better than what we've seen. I also wonder if Didi's legend has grown more than it should. I actually think that Didi and Cozart would have made a good complementary tandem that could combine to give a team well above average play at SS while hiding each others weaknesses.

SS Depth:

If Cozart goes down for an extended period, I do think the answer is not in the organization (though I wouldn't be opposed to Hamilton if no one else is available). I think the foremost consideration is getting some one to make all the plays. If we're not overly concerned about offense, there are guys in every organization who are major league capable defenders. There's a Cesar Izturis or Paul Janish behind every tree. The hit would be on offense, but the team has a top 6 with Choo, Phillips, Votto, Ludwick, Bruce and Frazier to survive.


I love the deal and the draft pick when Choo leaves town will be the gift that keeps on giving.

[Scrap Irony]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

IMO, "blowback" isn't what he's getting. He's getting jumped on. When people are going back and bringing up the Stewart-Cy Young thing several years after the fact just to dig that knife in a little bit deeper and twist is both petty and childish. And it's not an uncommon thing for it to be brought up by multiple posters. I'm done with this topic except to say freaking ease up guys.

Posters bring up Stewart-as-Cy-Young as an example of posters getting too amped up about prospects and about making silly proclamations and couching them as facts.

Before you were a part of the board, Sir Charles, there was a first-born son bon mot. This was brought about by another poster's insistence that a particular Red pitcher would never win 15 games. He did.

In other words, it's not always about doug, but about posters who state adamantly their opinion, then continue to argue said opinion even years later. Often after the issue has been settled definitively.

Redszone has a very high standard and an extremely long memory. Facts are demanded. Opinions without merit mostly ignored. That's one of the reasons, IMO, this board has survived a decade plus while other sports' boards are literally here today, gone tomorrow. It's one of the reasons this is perhaps the best sports' board on the internet.

If he doesn't like it, doug can always choose to post on his own site and leave this one alone. Or, if mods really do think he's being picked on, Rule Five can be invoked and those posters can be kicked out.

Personally, were doug to throw out a mea culpa once in a while, I'd guess posters who "jump on" him would decrease. But the attitude he shows-- "confident," he says-- doesn't leave a lot of room for error.

Obviously, that's my opinion and means next to nothing to anyone, particularly doug himself. This is strictly an opinion and can be safely ignored.

[Roy Tucker]

Originally Posted by Scrap Irony

In this analogy, I'm assuming doug is the brilliant person telling the rest of us how wrong we are about prospects.

If you meant it that way, that's fine.

However, because of his supposed brilliance, shouldn't his predictions stand up to sctrutiny days, weeks, months, or years later?

His predictions are no better-- and oft-times much worse-- than most of the minor league posters on this board.

If you couch yourself as some kind of expert, shouldn't you expect blowback when wrong?

Can you have it both ways?

I don't know what I meant. I was drunk. It made sense then.

But yeah, if you set yourself up as an expert, express things in absolutes, and do so in a not-so-tactful way, yeah, you better be darn accurate or else you're setting yourself up like a bowling pin.

I'm not saying its right or wrong, but it is human nature and it will continue to happen. C'est la vie.

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by Roy Tucker

I don't know what I meant. I was drunk. It made sense then.

But yeah, if you set yourself up as an expert, express things in absolutes, and do so in a not-so-tactful way, yeah, you better be darn accurate or else you're setting yourself up like a bowling pin.

I'm not saying its right or wrong, but it is human nature and it will continue to happen. C'est la vie.

Yep, there are more ways to skin a cat than just one way

If the source refuses to realize that it's understandable that it ruffles some again and again.

And as far as "easing up" I'll assume that call should come from a moderator or site owner, not a self appointed ombudsmen

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by Scrap Irony

His predictions are no better-- and oft-times much worse-- than most of the minor league posters on this board.

If you couch yourself as some kind of expert, shouldn't you expect blowback when wrong?

Can you have it both ways?

I will stack up my track record against anyone, as long as that anyone, is also talking about probably 150 Reds prospects every single year and making statements about them and their future. If they aren't, and I doubt any of them are, of course I am going to be "worse" with a track record. Most guys only talk about the top 10 guys. I talk about almost every single guy, have 30,000 posts here and even more on my website that is easily searchable, so it makes for an easy target to show where I am wrong or right.

And in the prospect game, I don't know how many times I have to say it, but I will say it again: Everyone is wrong. The guys that get paid by Major League baseball teams to do prospecting are wrong probably as often as they are right. We aren't dealing with math here. We are dealing with predicting the future based on the past.

I guess my whole thing still is, why do people still "in your face, you were wrong" things? "Expert" or not, I still don't get it.

[Bill]

There should be a wager, perhaps the only way to settle the stalemate if it is arrogance or just being right. In the next two years if Didi can OPS .750, no one on Redszone shall mention the cy young award won by Stewart. If Didi fails, Doug must preface all statements with perhaps, imo, etc.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by Bill

There should be a wager, perhaps the only way to settle the stalemate if it is arrogance or just being right. In the next two years if Didi can OPS .750, no one on Redszone shall mention the cy young award won by Stewart. If Didi fails, Doug must preface all statements with perhaps, imo, etc.

Pass.

[jojo]

Maybe it should be pointed that Zach Stewart doesn't inform anything about Didi per se....

Just because Doug was wrong about Stewart (and i mean his argument about Stewart was flawed at the time of the discussion regardless of what the benefit of hindsight allows one to say about the trade today), it doesn't really mean his arguments in this thread should be rejected. Suggesting otherwise is neither fair nor sound logic.