Reds acquire Shin-Soo Choo and Jason Donald for Drew Stubbs and Didi Gregorious

[camisadelgolf]

Here's a bet I'd like to offer people: if you don't like the way a person posts, I bet you can't block him. If you're right, you don't have to read that person's posts. If you're wrong, you're even more annoying than the posts from the person you don't like. I apologize for adding to the noise, but can we get back to baseball? Jeez.

Does anyone suspect the Reds will play Choo over Bruce in center for the sheer fact that Choo is seen as a rental, and therefore, the Reds don't care about long term injury to his legs?

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by Scrap Irony

Posters bring up Stewart-as-Cy-Young as an example of posters getting too amped up about prospects and about making silly proclamations and couching them as facts.

Before you were a part of the board, Sir Charles, there was a first-born son bon mot. This was brought about by another poster's insistence that a particular Red pitcher would never win 15 games. He did.

In other words, it's not always about doug, but about posters who state adamantly their opinion, then continue to argue said opinion even years later. Often after the issue has been settled definitively.

Redszone has a very high standard and an extremely long memory. Facts are demanded. Opinions without merit mostly ignored. That's one of the reasons, IMO, this board has survived a decade plus while other sports' boards are literally here today, gone tomorrow. It's one of the reasons this is perhaps the best sports' board on the internet.

If he doesn't like it, doug can always choose to post on his own site and leave this one alone. Or, if mods really do think he's being picked on, Rule Five can be invoked and those posters can be kicked out.

Personally, were doug to throw out a mea culpa once in a while, I'd guess posters who "jump on" him would decrease. But the attitude he shows-- "confident," he says-- doesn't leave a lot of room for error.

Obviously, that's my opinion and means next to nothing to anyone, particularly doug himself. This is strictly an opinion and can be safely ignored.

Nice post. I will say that Doug has stated on numerous occasions that a prospect didn't turn out as he thought. So why he should have to do a mea culpa on one that hasn't come to fruition or even one that has I don't get. Projecting any prospect is inherently a glimpse into the future based on current data. It's a guideline as to what we COULD expect.

The reason Doug's valued on this board isn't because he's an "expert" or not...it's because he does PERSONAL RESEARCH on these guys. He's not just passing along info he's read on the net from some named/unnamed source. Will he be wrong? Absolutely, and he'll be one of the first to admit that. But I don't get the attitude by some here that he should not have strong opinions or voice strong opinions. Why should he sugar-coat his comments to make them more palatable? And mostly, why do some have to do the "ha ha ha...you were wrong. You're an idiot!" routine? They may not intend it in that vein, but it's certainly the way it comes across.

I guess my biggest beef with all of this is this instancy that when he is stating his projection of a young player people are reading it like he's stating a fact. He's stating his belief and his strong opinion. I just don't get how people can't understand that automatically.

[RANDY IN INDY]

The interesting thing is you mentioned that "they may not intend it in that vein, but it's certainly the way it comes across." That goes both ways.

[jojo]

Originally Posted by camisadelgolf

Here's a bet I'd like to offer people: if you don't like the way a person posts, I bet you can't block him. If you're right, you don't have to read that person's posts. If you're wrong, you're even more annoying than the posts from the person you don't like. I apologize for adding to the noise, but can we get back to baseball? Jeez.

Does anyone suspect the Reds will play Choo over Bruce in center for the sheer fact that Choo is seen as a rental, and therefore, the Reds don't care about long term injury to his legs?

Best post of the millennium.

It seems the Reds will give Choo every opportunity to give redszoners a reason to argue about defense.

[Tadasimha]

Originally Posted by jojo

It seems the Reds will give Choo every opportunity to give redszoners a reason to argue about defense.

What this reminds me of is when the Cubs shifted Kosuke Fukudome to center from right when they signed Milton Bradley for right. That was at times not pretty to watch but by the end of the season he was decent out there. I fully expect Choo to make some pretty bad plays in center during spring training and into the first part of the season. His speed will make up for inexperience in center, though, and his bat and the run scoring potential will more than make up for the defensive drop-off.

[dunner13]

If the tigers can get to the world series with Cabera at third and Prince at first we should be fine with Choo in center.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by dunner13

If the tigers can get to the world series with Cabera at third and Prince at first we should be fine with Choo in center.

Defensively, those positions aren't nearly as important.

Walt Jocketty has said that the Reds will also look at Bruce in CF in the spring and decide from there. I think that is a really good idea. At least look at see who is better. I don't really like the idea of either one there, but I am glad that they are at least talking out loud with the idea of looking at both guys as options.

[DGullett35]

Watching alot of Indians games I seen Choo have trouble on balls hit to the right center gap. It wasnt like it happened all the time but sometimes he did take the wrong route or had a late break. He makes up for that with his cannon though. I think he will be servicable in center especially with GABP not being too big. Choo may have a little trouble in LA and in San Fran but for the most part he will do a decent job IMO. I just wonder what the outfiekld will look like when say Ludwick gets a day off. Does Choo move to left and Heisey/Paul to center? It will be interesting. In the long run I think our OF defense takes a slight hit but will still be good enough to get the job done.

[lollipopcurve]

In the long run I think our OF defense takes a slight hit but will still be good enough to get the job done.

Slight hit might be right, but I see little chance of it being more than slight. I think Stubbs' contribution in CF has been overvalued in all the handwringing about what Choo might do out there.

[Vottomatic]

Holy crap. I haven't read this thread for days, and I got to wade through a pissing match. Fun.

Back to the trade. I can't wait for Spring Training. This upcoming season is going to be alot of fun.

Reds got rid of a bust of a first rounder in Stubbs and a future good glove, no hit utility SS..........and have positioned themselves to win it all, with several options still available such as Chapman may start or close.

I haven't been this excited and CONFIDENT about the Reds in a long, long while.

[Blitz Dorsey]

Originally Posted by Benihana

One thing that might not be worth forgetting - Ryan LaMarre bats right handed. He could be ready for the majors at some point this year, and reportedly plays pretty good defense in CF. Chris Heisey is likely a better option right now, but in case there is an injury of some sort, I wouldn't rule out LaMarre as a backup CF.

Haha! Only a Michigan fan would think LaMarre might be ready for MLB this coming season. Will he even be ready for Louisville in 2013? Looking at his numbers from last year, I think he needs to repeat Double-A and prove he can hit there first. He had a .708 OPS in 482 ABs in 2012 at Pensacola. What about that makes you believe he will be ready for the Big Leagues at any point in 2013?

Sorry, the Reds have drafted extremely well. But one they clearly missed on, IMO, was LaMarre. Very disappointing numbers for a second-round pick:

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats...pbp&pid=534606

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey

Haha! Only a Michigan fan would think LaMarre might be ready for MLB this coming season. Will he even be ready for Louisville in 2013? Looking at his numbers from last year, I think he needs to repeat Double-A and prove he can hit there first. He had a .708 OPS in 482 ABs in 2012 at Pensacola. What about that makes you believe he will be ready for the Big Leagues at any point in 2013?

Sorry, the Reds have drafted extremely well. But one they clearly missed on, IMO, was LaMarre. Very disappointing numbers for a second-round pick:

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats...pbp&pid=534606

LaMarre played with a foot injury all season in 2012. I think it certainly hampered his numbers. The guy doesn't have anything resembling a powerful swing though, so unless he makes some mechanical changes, the power isn't going to be there. But, he was a little slower last year than normal and it probably did cost him some slugging. His numbers, last season at least, probably aren't the most accurate portrayal of his true talent.

I don't want to go out and say that he has been a successful pick so far, but I don't think I am comfortable saying he is a "clear miss" either. Clear miss guys aren't holding their own in AA two years after being drafted. They are struggling in A ball.

[Blitz Dorsey]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

LaMarre played with a foot injury all season in 2012. I think it certainly hampered his numbers. The guy doesn't have anything resembling a powerful swing though, so unless he makes some mechanical changes, the power isn't going to be there. But, he was a little slower last year than normal and it probably did cost him some slugging. His numbers, last season at least, probably aren't the most accurate portrayal of his true talent.

I don't want to go out and say that he has been a successful pick so far, but I don't think I am comfortable saying he is a "clear miss" either. Clear miss guys aren't holding their own in AA two years after being drafted. They are struggling in A ball.

I disagree when talking about a college player who was drafted, especially one drafted in the second-round. You should be doing more than "holding your own at AA" 2 years after being a second-round pick from the college ranks. LaMarre has struggled at every level. The link I included in my previous post is to his career numbers in the minors. When has he ever been good? When has he ever made you say "That was a good second-round pick"? In 2011, in 460 ABs, he posted an OPS of .720. I see a pattern. He also strikes out a heck of a lot, especially for someone with almost zero power.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey

I disagree when talking about a college player who was drafted, especially one drafted in the second-round. You should be doing more than "holding your own at AA" 2 years after being a second-round pick from the college ranks. LaMarre has struggled at every level. The link I included in my previous post is to his career numbers in the minors. When has he ever been good? When has he ever made you say "That was a good second-round pick"? In 2011, in 460 ABs, he posted an OPS of .720. I see a pattern. He also strikes out a heck of a lot, especially for someone with almost zero power.

There is a difference between being a good pick and being a bust. There is a rather large in between area. He falls in there for me. The game of baseball is changing and it seems a lot of people still aren't taking notice. If you play up the middle with good defense, you can go out and OPS .700 and have value. Why can't LaMarre be that kind of guy? To bring this thread full circle, who says he can't do what Cozart did, and be an iffy hitter with good defense at a premium position? If he can do that, and I don't see any real reason to suggest it isn't a possibility, then he isn't a bust or anything like it.

I don't know, the term bust gets tossed around too often. Devin Mesoraco was called a bust several years in a row. Fast forward another 18 months and he clearly wasn't. Bust doesn't mean "not living up to what I had hoped".

[Blitz Dorsey]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

There is a difference between being a good pick and being a bust. There is a rather large in between area. He falls in there for me. The game of baseball is changing and it seems a lot of people still aren't taking notice. If you play up the middle with good defense, you can go out and OPS .700 and have value. Why can't LaMarre be that kind of guy? To bring this thread full circle, who says he can't do what Cozart did, and be an iffy hitter with good defense at a premium position? If he can do that, and I don't see any real reason to suggest it isn't a possibility, then he isn't a bust or anything like it.

I don't know, the term bust gets tossed around too often. Devin Mesoraco was called a bust several years in a row. Fast forward another 18 months and he clearly wasn't. Bust doesn't mean "not living up to what I had hoped".

Who used the word "bust" in this discussion except for you? I wouldn't go as far as to call LaMarre a "bust", but I'm confident in saying he's been a big disappointment as a second-round pick. I bet there's no question the Reds' brass would concur with that. I think there is a difference between "bust" and a "miss." LaMarre was a "miss." Not a complete bust, but never someone that's going to be anything more than filler at the AAA level most likely. Nothing about his numbers reflect someone that is going to have a long Big League career (or one at all). I'm sure LaMarre will get his shot to play in the Big Leagues one day, but it won't be 2013 with the Reds IMO. He's not even close to ready. If they are going to roll the dice on a young guy in 2013, it will be Billy Hamilton. I don't think he's ready either, but I'd rather take my lumps with clearly the CF of the future rather than LaMarre this year. And we're only talking worst-case scenario if Choo gets hurt and they need to call up one of the kids.

This begs another question: With both Hamilton and LaMarre centerfielders who clearly need another year in the minors, who plays where in 2013? Does Billy go to Louisville and LaMarre repeats at Pensacola? Or do they bring Billy along slowly since this is a new position for him and Billy starts back at Pensacola and LaMarre starts at Louisville? Can't have them both at Louisville since you want Billy taking as many reps as possible in CF (and LaMarre is a CF all the way). They are going to be on different teams to begin the 2013 season. My guess is they will go slow with Hamilton and he'll be at Pensacola. LaMarre will be at Louisville. Then when LaMarre struggles at Louisville, he'll eventually be replaced by Hamilton. Not sure what would happen to LaMarre at that point. Maybe a trading chip (a very small one)? Maybe he takes on a backup role or plays one of the corner OF spots once Billy gets called up to Louisville. Or maybe LaMarre will just get sent back to Pensacola. Should be interesting to follow.