John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

[jojo]

Originally Posted by traderumor

Actually was showing how you went from begging the question to an appeal to authority---the authority being yourself.

Take this kind of unnecessary stuff private please.

[traderumor]

Originally Posted by jojo

Take this kind of unnecessary stuff private please.

I am addressing your argument. Please stop defacto moderating and brow beating posters who dare to challenge your assertions.

[*BaseClogger*]

Originally Posted by oneupper

I don't know. Is is really the responsibility of the sportswriter to uncover and denounce fraud, risking his/her career and livelihood?
Sure, its great if they do (and are right), but does it fall on them?

A reason you have regulators is for whistleblowers to keep their necks.

Frankly, if we're going to look at that way, the players should have been policing themselves better. A lot of misplaced solidarity went on. No one wanted to be the rat.

Yes, it is 100% the responsibility of the media to act as a "watchdog" for the league and report stories it finds immoral. The media acts as a regulator. How can these same writers take a moral stand against PEDs now when it didn't during the players' careers? It was in the players best interests to be using PEDs--how was it in the best interest of the sportswriters?

[jojo]

Originally Posted by traderumor

I am addressing your argument. Please stop defacto moderating and brow beating posters who dare to challenge your assertions.

Neither assertion concerning the logical fallacies alledged is actually correct (begging the question or appeal to authority) and you're now on ignore so there is no need to further develop this tangent in the open thread. I've asked nicely. Thanks.

[Vottomatic]

Seriously? 14 pages about this?

Is Fay's opinion really that important?

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by Chip R

Sportswriters - by nature - are hypocrites. Their readers don't have long memories and they can be for something one day and against it the next.

Lord yes, playing sides sells papers (or in today's terms generates click revenue) they are working for someone here.

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by Vottomatic

Seriously? 14 pages about this?

Is Fay's opinion really that important?

I have 7 in my browser settings.

FWIW Tj Quinn also gave up his vote

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/87...hall-fame-vote

And yes it's a baseball subject and evidently it matters.. crazy stuff for baseball board eh?

[AtomicDumpling]

Originally Posted by *BaseClogger*

This is the biggest thing for me--where were these tough-guy sportswriters taking a tough stand against PEDs *while* it was happening? It looks like a cover-your-ass move by them now because they completely ignored the situation as it unfolded. It was their responsibility to inform the public of this sort of behavior because they were in those locker rooms and they failed at it miserably all in exchange for some cheeky quotes...

I agree. These sportswriters didn't have a problem with steroids at the time when they were writing widely-read articles that glorified these PED abusers during the height of the steroid era. The writers made a lot of money singing the praises of the cheaters back then, now they want to make more money by vilifying those same players now.

The sportswriters should have exposed the scandal 15 years ago, but they chose to ride the wave of baseball's resurgence after the lock-outs and strikes had the game in the doldrums. All the people who are now decrying the use of performance enhancing drugs are the same people that benefited from the cheating. The Commissioner, the Hall of Fame, the owners, the media, the managers and the players (and even many fans) all knew about the cheating while it was going on and did nothing about it because they were all indirectly benefiting from it too. Now they all pretend to be outraged.

The cheating players got away with it because they were permitted to get away with it by the watchkeepers turning a blind eye. Steroids fueled a gravy train that fed a lot of hungry mouths. Now some of those mouths are speaking out in a holier-than-thou fashion and acting as if they themselves weren't complicit in the perpetration of the crimes they now decry.

[George Anderson]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

I agree. These sportswriters didn't have a problem with steroids at the time when they were writing widely-read articles that glorified these PED abusers during the height of the steroid era. The writers made a lot of money singing the praises of the cheaters back then, now they want to make more money by vilifying those same players now.

The sportswriters should have exposed the scandal 15 years ago, but they chose to ride the wave of baseball's resurgence after the lock-outs and strikes had the game in the doldrums. All the people who are now decrying the use of performance enhancing drugs are the same people that benefited from the cheating. The Commissioner, the Hall of Fame, the owners, the media, the managers and the players (and even many fans) all knew about the cheating while it was going on and did nothing about it because they were all indirectly benefiting from it too. Now they all pretend to be outraged.

The cheating players got away with it because they were permitted to get away with it by the watchkeepers turning a blind eye. Steroids fueled a gravy train that fed a lot of hungry mouths. Now some of those mouths are speaking out in a holier-than-thou fashion and acting as if they themselves weren't complicit in the perpetration of the crimes they now decry.

It is rare one post changes my opinion on a subject but you just may have.

Nice work.

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by George Anderson

It is rare one post changes my opinion on a subject but you just may have.

Nice work.

The amount of money in the baseball cottage industries in that era BOOMED as well.

[mth123]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

I agree. These sportswriters didn't have a problem with steroids at the time when they were writing widely-read articles that glorified these PED abusers during the height of the steroid era. The writers made a lot of money singing the praises of the cheaters back then, now they want to make more money by vilifying those same players now.

The sportswriters should have exposed the scandal 15 years ago, but they chose to ride the wave of baseball's resurgence after the lock-outs and strikes had the game in the doldrums. All the people who are now decrying the use of performance enhancing drugs are the same people that benefited from the cheating. The Commissioner, the Hall of Fame, the owners, the media, the managers and the players (and even many fans) all knew about the cheating while it was going on and did nothing about it because they were all indirectly benefiting from it too. Now they all pretend to be outraged.

The cheating players got away with it because they were permitted to get away with it by the watchkeepers turning a blind eye. Steroids fueled a gravy train that fed a lot of hungry mouths. Now some of those mouths are speaking out in a holier-than-thou fashion and acting as if they themselves weren't complicit in the perpetration of the crimes they now decry.

I pretty much hate this entire subject, but this post is outstanding.

[kaldaniels]

Originally Posted by Vottomatic

Seriously? 14 pages about this?

Is Fay's opinion really that important?

You mean lack of opinion, right?

[traderumor]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

I agree. These sportswriters didn't have a problem with steroids at the time when they were writing widely-read articles that glorified these PED abusers during the height of the steroid era. The writers made a lot of money singing the praises of the cheaters back then, now they want to make more money by vilifying those same players now.

The sportswriters should have exposed the scandal 15 years ago, but they chose to ride the wave of baseball's resurgence after the lock-outs and strikes had the game in the doldrums. All the people who are now decrying the use of performance enhancing drugs are the same people that benefited from the cheating. The Commissioner, the Hall of Fame, the owners, the media, the managers and the players (and even many fans) all knew about the cheating while it was going on and did nothing about it because they were all indirectly benefiting from it too. Now they all pretend to be outraged.

The cheating players got away with it because they were permitted to get away with it by the watchkeepers turning a blind eye. Steroids fueled a gravy train that fed a lot of hungry mouths. Now some of those mouths are speaking out in a holier-than-thou fashion and acting as if they themselves weren't complicit in the perpetration of the crimes they now decry.

While there is some level of self-righteousness and hypocrisy, it really does not change the debate regarding the players. Just like a lot of people cheat on their taxes while yelling about tax shelters for the rich, it doesn't mean that the tax shelters for the rich should be considered acceptable as a result.

[AtomicDumpling]

Originally Posted by traderumor

While there is some level of self-righteousness and hypocrisy, it really does not change the debate regarding the players. Just like a lot of people cheat on their taxes while yelling about tax shelters for the rich, it doesn't mean that the tax shelters for the rich should be considered acceptable as a result.

I certainly wasn't arguing that steroid usage was acceptable.

My point was that everyone involved with baseball is to blame for the steroids fiasco. The players bear more blame than anyone else, but the commissioner, the managers, the team owners and the media were all aware of the abuse of PEDs but they allowed it to continue and in effect encouraged it by rewarding the players who cheated. It was a league-wide systemic cancer that infected every facet of the game of baseball. Isolating a few star players and pinning a pathetically weak penalty on to them is just another way to gloss over the problem.

Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens didn't ruin the game all by themselves. They were merely pawns in a much bigger game of chess. It just strikes me as short-sighted to single out a few stars for punishment. The biggest beneficiaries of the steroid era were Commissioner Bud Selig, the owners and the media (especially TV networks) who enjoyed the financial windfall generated by the spike in baseball's popularity during that era. They would never have done anything about PEDs if the US Congress had not forced their hand. If all we ever do to punish the criminals who cheated the game and the fans is deny a few stars induction to the Hall of Fame then most of the worst offenders of the Steroid Era will have gotten away scot free.

[oneupper]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

If all we ever do to punish the criminals who cheated the game and the fans is deny a few stars induction to the Hall of Fame then most of the worst offenders of the Steroid Era will have gotten away scot free.

I think here is the conceptual diversion on the issue, IMO. Some consider excluding some of the players from the HOF as "punishment" or "denying" them some right they have "earned" with their performance (a part of which, is from cheating, we can speculate how much but never know until we send McFly back to steal Barry's syringes).
No, the induction is an honor. Its totally optional.

The argument that because we can't get Selig or the writers or the others who had a part in this, we should HONOR Clemens and Bonds (and the others...), doesn't make sense to me.

And yes, people who played a big part in the phenomenon and the cover up will get away. But maybe someone will think twice about cheating or covering up in the future.

People forget that the Black Sox Eight were acquitted in a court of law. The participation of several in the fix was debatable. And there was a cover-up that supposedly involved many others (yes, writers too).

Judge Landis kicked them all out of baseball. He didn't get all the players who threw games before or after. He didn't get the writers or the owners who covered up all the cheating. By all accounts, gambling was an epidemic then much like steroids were recently (steroids may still be).
Landis didn't get all the cheaters and he may have even banished an "innocent" or two and/or a "not totally guilty" one. But he was right.

If all we get from the steroid cheating epidemic is Bonds and Clemens looking at the HOF from the outside in, it won't be much at all.
But the alternative is nothing.