4/6/2013 - Saturday - Reds vs Nats

[texasdave]

http://mlblogsramsey.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/0013.jpg?w=555

First pitch is at 1:10.

[texasdave]

Washington Nationals lineup:

Span - CF
Werth - LF
Harper - RF
Zimmerman - 3B
Tracy - 1B
Desmond - SS
Espinosa - 2B
Ramos - C
Detwiler - P

[kaldaniels]

Glad to see Bruce in there. Welsh mentioned he may get the day off.

[Scrap Irony]

Odd stat of the day:

Sin-Soo Choo leads the majors in hbp with three. No other team has that many.

[Scrap Irony]

Leake v. Washington in his career:
3-2 5.13 ERA

Detwiler v. Cincinnati in his career:
0-3 3.16 ERA

[Maker_84]

Leake v. Washington in his career:
3-2 5.13 ERA

Detwiler v. Cincinnati in his career:
0-3 3.16 ERA

not a good stat but this years team is better than last years in overall talent and hopefully the team is focused after yesterday

[Trajinous]

When did Leake get a haircut?

[texasdave]

Brantley notes that Leake has good downward movement on his fastball. 1-2-3 first inning for Leake; who made a fine play on a liner off the bat of Bryce Harper.

[REDSEER]

Pretty amazing reaction there from Leake. A lot of fastballs from Leake in the 1st inning....only a few changeups and a few cutters.

[Matt700wlw]

Leake v. Washington in his career:
3-2 5.13 ERA

Detwiler v. Cincinnati in his career:
0-3 3.16 ERA

Going into yesterday, Homer Bailey had never beaten Washington and had an ERA in the 9's against them...

[Matt700wlw]

Joey Votto, Oscar nominee :)

[kaldaniels]

Me no likey that.

[REDSEER]

Pretty scary. Only a couple inches from his face.

[Reds Fanatic]

Phillips flies out to right. 0-0 after 1.

[REDSEER]

Kelch trying to dig something up by saying that could've been payback for the 15th run last night.

I don't think so and I hope that we don't go all Cardinals on them and plunk someone later.

[kaldaniels]

There are two types of teams.

Those that tolerate chin music to their franchise player, and those that don't. It didn't seem intentional, but we'll see.

I doubt Votto wants retaliation.

[Reds Fanatic]

Zimmerman grounds out to 2nd. 1 out.

[REDSEER]

Smart play by Leake to let the ball go by and not deflect it.

[Reds Fanatic]

Tracy with a broken bat bloop hit to center.

[kaldaniels]

Smart play by Leake to let the ball go by and not deflect it.

I noticed that too you could tell that exact moment he decided to defer on that one.

[kaldaniels]

Vanilla Kelch sure is trying to stir the pot on that 15th run.

Welsh shut him down.

[texasdave]

There are two types of teams.

Those that tolerate chin music to their franchise player, and those that don't. It didn't seem intentional, but we'll see.

I doubt Votto wants retaliation.

Three types of teams. Houston Astros don't have a franchise player. :)

[Reds Fanatic]

Desmond flies out to the track in right.

[REDSEER]

Good to see that Mike Leake throws the "Fast Break" on 46% of his pitches. :laugh:

At least according to FSOH.

[Maker_84]

leake getting behind the counts and nats getting good pitches to swing at

[Reds Fanatic]

Espinosa doubles off the wall in right center. 2nd and 3rd.

[kaldaniels]

Three types of teams. Houston Astros don't have a franchise player. :)

Duly noted. Gross oversight on my end.

[Reds Fanatic]

Intentional walk to Ramos loads the bases

[NeilHamburger]

I get the feeling Reds are gonna need to score some runs to win this one.

[Maker_84]

I get the feeling Reds are gonna need to score some runs to win this one.

yep, leake doesn't have much

[Tom Servo]

I get the feeling Reds are gonna need to score some runs to win this one.Yes, that is generally how baseball games are won.

[Reds Fanatic]

Detwiler strikes out swinging. 0-0 mid 2nd.

[Matt700wlw]

Yes, that is generally how baseball games are won.

No.

[Reds Fanatic]

Bruce lines a single to right.

[Reds Fanatic]

Frazier flies out to the track in left.

[757690]

I get the feeling Reds are gonna need to score some runs to win this one.

At least one ;)

[NeilHamburger]

Frazier just missed hitting that a very long way

[Reds Fanatic]

Cozart flies out to left. 2 outs.

[Reds Fanatic]

Mesoraco grounds out to short. 0-0 after 2.

[Reds Fanatic]

Span grounds out to 3rd.

[Reds Fanatic]

Werth lines a double to right.

[Reds Fanatic]

Harper crushes a pitch to right. 2-0 Nationals.

[NeilHamburger]

Leake is being hammered

[Ohayou]

Get used to that.

[REDSEER]

A lot of hard hit balls off of Leake. The 2-seam/cutter combo isn't fooling many.

[Reds Fanatic]

Zimmerman walks

[kaldaniels]

Dusty needs to use the hook now - on Mes :D

[Tom Servo]

Can Leake at least give us 5 innings?

[_Sir_Charles_]

No. Don't get "used to it". This isn't the normal Mike Leake. He's really struggling with his control. He's normally a 2-1 strike to ball ratio kind of guy. 24 strikes, 20 balls right now. Yeah, that's not normal.

[NeilHamburger]

Another crushed line drive. Right at choo.

[Reds Fanatic]

Tracy lines out to center.

[TheBigLebowski]

Mike Leake sucks.

But I do think it's kinda cool that the Kings of Leon now make up the heart of the Nats batting order.

[RiverRat13]

If Leake can go 5 innings and keep them under 5 runs, I'll be happy.

[Tom Servo]

No. Don't get "used to it". This isn't the normal Mike Leake. He's really struggling with his control. He's normally a 2-1 strike to ball ratio kind of guy. 24 strikes, 20 balls right now. Yeah, that's not normal.
Getting hammered by the opposition is pretty much "normal Mike Leake", sadly.

[KittyDuran]

@ GABP... I'm sure this been answered before but has Hanny ever caught Leake?

[REDSEER]

I love Mes as a prospect, but the difference between his and Hanigan's receiving ability is like night and day right now. The problem is that only experience and playing time will improve that.

[Reds Fanatic]

Desmond grounds into a force out. 2-0 Nationals mid 3rd.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Getting hammered by the opposition is pretty much "normal Mike Leake", sadly.

Now come on Tom. You may not like the guy, but that's not true and you know it. Yes, he was worse last year than the previous. But he was far from "bad".

[TheBigLebowski]

No. Don't get "used to it". This isn't the normal Mike Leake. He's really struggling with his control. He's normally a 2-1 strike to ball ratio kind of guy. 24 strikes, 20 balls right now. Yeah, that's not normal.

What's normal for Leake is not getting batters out and surrendering a lot of runs. This is cookie-cutter Leake. He's not good.

[Reds Fanatic]

@ GABP... I'm sure this been answered before but has Hanny ever caught Leake?

Only a couple of times last year.

[Maker_84]

Jeese leake [stinks]

[RiverRat13]

Dude can rake, though.

[Reds Fanatic]

The one thing Leake does well is hit. Single to center.

[LoganBuck]

I love Mes as a prospect, but the difference between his and Hanigan's receiving ability is like night and day right now. The problem is that only experience and playing time will improve that.

And this has to do with Mike Leake tossing meatballs how? Seriously this catchers' receiving ability stuff has to stop. I didn't see the signal for pusball put down by Mes.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Dude can rake, though.

I don't think ANYBODY will argue that one. :O)

[edabbs44]

What's normal for Leake is not getting batters out and surrendering a lot of runs. This is cookie-cutter Leake. He's not good.

What is the most normal for Leake is the complete pile on in the game thread when he has a bad inning. The whole sky is falling routine is really old.

The Reds have had a few guys who have taken a little longer than expected to hit their potential. Maybe we should use a little patience.

Shed a tear...

[KittyDuran]

Now come on Tom. You may not like the guy, but that's not true and you know it. Yes, he was worse last year than the previous. But he was far from "bad".

I guess it's a good thing that Leake is now considered bad... In the past rotations he would be @ least a #2 pitcher that's how bad it was.

Well, he can hit...

[TheBigLebowski]

Reds' scouting dept can always say they drafted Leake as a hitter. Micah Owings part deux.

[Matt700wlw]

Big League Choo

[kaldaniels]

It's like we are playing with the DH when Leake is in.

[Reds Fanatic]

Choo singles to left. 1st and 2nd.

[REDSEER]

And this has to do with Mike Leake tossing meatballs how? Seriously this catchers' receiving ability stuff has to stop. I didn't see the signal for pusball put down, by Mes.

Not talking about Leake at all. Talking about strictly receiving the ball (in terms of ability to frame, block, etc.). Mes seems to "stab" at the ball a lot more than Hanny, who seems very smooth when catching the ball.

[kaldaniels]

Tough stretch here for Detweiler.

[VottoFan54]

The average ERA for starter in MLB last year was 4.22. Leake's ERA the last three years:

4.23
3.86
4.58

Leake is pretty much average.

[Reds Fanatic]

Heisey grounds into a 6-4 FC. 1st and 3rd with 1 out.

[Matt700wlw]

The average ERA for starter in MLB last year was 4.22. Leake's ERA the last three years:

4.23
3.86
4.58

Leake is pretty much average.

As a 5th starter, you'll take that.

[Reds Fanatic]

Votto grounds into a 4-6-3 DP. 2-0 Nationals after 3.

[kaldaniels]

Time to get Votto some help?

[_Sir_Charles_]

I'll drop it, but I don't get the Leake bashing. For what he's supposed to do, he's WELL above average at it. I don't see many #5 starters better.

[TheBigLebowski]

What is the most normal for Leake is the complete pile on in the game thread when he has a bad inning. The whole sky is falling routine is really old.

The Reds have had a few guys who have taken a little longer than expected to hit their potential. Maybe we should use a little patience.

Shed a tear...

Patience is not in abundance in one of the few years in which a small-market team such as ours has a legit chance to win a world series.

Leake has had 2 bad innings out of 3 today. He has never shown himself to be an above-average MLB SP. I'm not only allowed to think the guy's no good, but I am supported by statistics and empirical evidence.

[REDSEER]

Tough inning to get nothing. We'll get a few before the end of it.

On second look, I'm not sure Tracy ever got back.

[BluegrassRedleg]

Blown call.

[BluegrassRedleg]

After getting 15 yesterday, I'm already mentally prepared to score 2 or less today.

[LoganBuck]

Not talking about Leake at all. Talking about strictly receiving the ball (in terms of ability to frame, block, etc.). Mes seems to "stab" at the ball a lot more than Hanny, who seems very smooth when catching the ball.

This makes how much of a difference? Really? Announcers say stuff like that, but somehow we are supposed to believe that Ryan Hanigan has a magical ability to use a Jedi mind trick on the ump?

[RiverRat13]

Hatcher was right. To be fair, he had the better angle.

[Stray]

Looked like his foot was off of the bag.

[TheBigLebowski]

Awful call and it costs us at least one run.

[Reds Fanatic]

Desmond flies out to right.

[kaldaniels]

Words been out to jump on Leake's first pitch since June of his rookie year.

[REDSEER]

This makes how much of a difference? Really? Announcers say stuff like that, but somehow we are supposed to believe that Ryan Hanigan has a magical ability to use a Jedi mind trick on the ump?

I was just making an observation of something that Mes could (and will) make improvements on. I want the kid to play more; he offers much more offensive potential than Hanny and has a cannon for an arm.

[Screwball]

Awful call and it costs us at least one run.

Yep, replay from a better angle confirms the ump missed it.

[Reds Fanatic]

Ramos grounds out to 3rd.

[Tony Cloninger]

If your a RH hitter against this guy....who after seeing the HR barrage yesterday ..is going away a lot...you need to not pull and roll over on his pitches. Start trying to shot it the other way soon or else it will be harmless flyballs/popups and GO to SS.

[Scrap Irony]

Fearless prediction: Todd Frazier will win a Gold Glove one day as a 3B.

[kaldaniels]

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-seasons-worst-called-ball/

[Reds Fanatic]

Detwiler grounds out to 1st. 2-0 Nationals mid 4th.

[Ohayou]

Almost the 5th inning already. Heh.

[TheBigLebowski]

Fearless prediction: Todd Frazier will win a Gold Glove one day as a 3B.

I don't know that he's athletic enough, but I can certainly say I trust him with the position for the foreseeable future and I doubt we'll ever consider him a defensive liability. He's paired up in age with Zimmerman and he is his defensive superior.

[WebScorpion]

I'll drop it, but I don't get the Leake bashing. For what he's supposed to do, he's WELL above average at it. I don't see many #5 starters better.We are spoiled by having #2 and #4 pitchers who would be #1's on most teams. ;)

[malcontent]

How often does Votto swing at the first pitch in that situation?

[TheBigLebowski]

How often does Votto swing at the first pitch in that situation?

Reds have been first-pitch swinging a lot today. Probably because of Detwiler's propensity for the fastball.

[WebScorpion]

Fearless prediction: Todd Frazier will win a Gold Glove one day as a 3B.He's usually got excellent footwork and he has terrific range to his left. His mistakes usually come on hard hit balls right at him. He's a pretty solid defensive 3rd baseman now...I could see him getting a gold glove some day. :thumbup:

[Scrap Irony]

I don't know that he's athletic enough, but I can certainly say I trust him with the position for the foreseeable future and I doubt we'll ever consider him a defensive liability. He's paired up in age with Zimmerman and he is his defensive superior.

Zimmerman's brittle, and no one else in the National League is very good with both the leather and the bat.

[Reds Fanatic]

Phillips reaches on a throwing error by Desmond

[_Sir_Charles_]

Take this for what it's worth, but 2012, Leake's worst year....

Quality Starts (NL)

18 Adam Wainwright
18 Mat Latos
18 Wade Miley
17 Mike Leake
17 Mark Buehrle
17 Jeff Samardzija
16 Lance Lynn
15 Roy Halladay

Just to put things into perspective. And that's our number FIVE starter. He's WELL above average for back end starters.

[TheBigLebowski]

Zimmerman's brittle, and no one else in the National League is very good with both the leather and the bat.

Hey, I don't want you to be wrong. From your keyboard to God's IPad.

[Scrap Irony]

Big opportunity here for Bruce.

I'd like to see a big fly here.

[kaldaniels]

Take this for what it's worth, but 2012, Leake's worst year....

Quality Starts (NL)

18 Adam Wainwright
18 Mat Latos
18 Wade Miley
17 Mike Leake
17 Mark Buehrle
17 Jeff Samardzija
16 Lance Lynn
15 Roy Halladay

Just to put things into perspective. And that's our number FIVE starter. He's WELL above average for back end starters.

There are many ways to skin this one, but that is interesting.

[texasdave]

Desmond 'Encarnacions' the throw to first. I like it.

[Reds Fanatic]

Bruce flies out to left and Phillips has to stay at 2nd.

[Ohayou]

Fearless prediction: Todd Frazier will win a Gold Glove one day as a 3B.

Honestly, I thought he was better defensively at 1B last year, but I could see it. Maybe even a Silver Slugger, too.

[TheBigLebowski]

Useless at-bat.

This is what normally happens to a team that stinks in situational hitting after a night in which multiple balls left the yard and we just hit 'em where they ain't. Law of averages governs baseball.

[Tony Cloninger]

Take this for what it's worth, but 2012, Leake's worst year....

Quality Starts (NL)

18 Adam Wainwright
18 Mat Latos
18 Wade Miley
17 Mike Leake
17 Mark Buehrle
17 Jeff Samardzija
16 Lance Lynn
15 Roy Halladay

Just to put things into perspective. And that's our number FIVE starter. He's WELL above average for back end starters.


So he is like the girl with curls then. Shirley Temple one minute....the Bad Seed the next.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Man, Todd is swinging so well right now. Love it!

[Reds Fanatic]

Frazier continues to roll. Double to the wall in left. 2-1 Nationals.

[RiverRat13]

That ball was stung.

[BluegrassRedleg]

Hammered that mistake.

[edabbs44]

Patience is not in abundance in one of the few years in which a small-market team such as ours has a legit chance to win a world series.

Leake has had 2 bad innings out of 3 today. He has never shown himself to be an above-average MLB SP. I'm not only allowed to think the guy's no good, but I am supported by statistics and empirical evidence.

How many teams have above avg pitchers across the board? How many get Leake's production in the 5 spot at his price?

Leake likely wont cost this team a WS. They have the horses to make the playoffs with or without him and, if they get there, he likely won't see the mound unless something goes wrong or he turns it up a few notches.

[texasdave]

The Toddfather delivers.

[TheBigLebowski]

Man, is Frazier dialed in...love that guy..

My friends laughed when I drafted him in our fantasy league.

Now if I just would have taken Chris Davis..

[Maker_84]

Bruce could learn a thing or 2 or 3 from Frazier

[Reds Fanatic]

Cozart flies out to center. 2 outs.

[_Sir_Charles_]

So he is like the girl with curls then. Shirley Temple one minute....the Bad Seed the next.

Closer to the truth. Very inconsistent. But that's what you expect from a young pitcher and also from your #5 guy. But the "this guy sucks" stuff is VERY far from true.

Okay, NOW I'll drop it. :O)

[kaldaniels]

If your number 5 guy is durable and gets a quality start in half his outings, it's hard for me to get too riled up about having him on the team.

[jredmo2]

Calling a Mez hr here

[RedsBrick]

So, when is it going to be OK to say the order needs to be:

4-Frazier
5-Phillips
6-Bruce

[kaldaniels]

Mes will get a pitch to hit with Leake on deck. :D

[REDSEER]

Go ahead and walk Mes to get to the pitcher here.

I dare you!

[50YrRedsFan]

Mes probably a little rusty.

[Reds Fanatic]

They go ahead and intentionally walk Mesoraco

[_Sir_Charles_]

Make 'em pay Mike!!!

[kaldaniels]

I assume that goes down as a IBB?

[Scrap Irony]

Mes probably a little rusty.

I hope that's sarcastic. He played last night, for God's sake.

[texasdave]

I assume that goes down as a IBB?

I believe you are correct.

[757690]

Fearless prediction: Todd Frazier will win a Gold Glove one day as a 3B.

You really think Scott Rolen is going to raffle one of his off someday? ;)

[texasdave]

Make 'em pay, Mike. Err. Next time.

[Reds Fanatic]

Leake strikes out swinging. 2-1 Nationals after 4.

[WebScorpion]

You really think Scott Rolen is going to raffle one of his off someday? ;)No, but Todd may win it from him during Thursday night poker. ;)

[texasdave]

What the Toddfather wants; the Toddfather gets. Or maybe Frazier will just trade his LLWS trophy straight up.

[TheBigLebowski]

How many teams have above avg pitchers across the board? How many get Leake's production in the 5 spot at his price?

Leake likely wont cost this team a WS. They have the horses to make the playoffs with or without him and, if they get there, he likely won't see the mound unless something goes wrong or he turns it up a few notches.

You're right. As a 5th starter, he is league-average and he likely won't have any real impact as to our WS chances. My objection to Leake is not his current designation but to the fact that he is even on the team. I hated that pick. Leake is what he was basically projected to be - a 4th/5th starter. Average stuff but throws multiple pitches..."crafty." The kind of pitcher it is easier to forget than remember. I guess I should stop whining about it and just accept it, but I certainly hope we learned a lesson with that pick...you don't blow a top 10 pick (8 overall) on a guy who projects, at best, to be a late-rotation pitcher.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Make 'em pay, Mike. Err. Next time.

I still find myself laughing when I EXPECT a hit from our pitcher. But when he's up...I do. :O)

[Reds Fanatic]

Span flies out to left.

[texasdave]

This entire bit about him being good for a #5 is nonsense. When Dusty sends him out to the mound, I am pretty sure he doesn't tell Leake to pitch like the #5 that he is. Leake is like any other starting pitcher. He is designated to get as many hitters out as possible. If he does that at a #5 level; well, that's not good.

[Reds Fanatic]

Werth singles to center.

[757690]

Important inning for Leake.

[PuffyPig]

What's normal for Leake is not getting batters out and surrendering a lot of runs. This is cookie-cutter Leake. He's not good.

His average start last year was 3 runs in 6 innings.

[kaldaniels]

You're right. As a 5th starter, he is league-average and he likely won't have any real impact as to our WS chances. My objection to Leake is not his current designation but to the fact that he is even on the team. I hated that pick. Leake is what he was basically projected to be - a 4th/5th starter. Average stuff but throws multiple pitches..."crafty." The kind of pitcher it is easier to forget than remember. I guess I should stop whining about it and just accept it, but I certainly hope we learned a lesson with that pick...you don't blow a top 10 pick (8 overall) on a guy who projects, at best, to be a late-rotation pitcher.

If we had the #8 pick in this draft and you guaranteed me he would have the performance/production of Leake I would pick him this year. That assumes all top shelf talent was selected by then.

[Reds Fanatic]

Harper flies out to center.

[TheBigLebowski]

This entire bit about him being good for a #5 is nonsense. When Dusty sends him out to the mound, I am pretty sure he doesn't tell Leake to pitch like the #5 that he is. Leake is like any other starting pitcher. He is designated to get as many hitters out as possible. If he does that at a #5 level; well, that's not good.

Problem is, #5 starters are, by definition, not that good at getting major league hitters out. So expectations must be tempered.

Leake is getting peppered out there. Anyone with a rational, objective eye can see that.

[REDSEER]

Harper's swing is frightening as an opposing fan.

[kaldaniels]

This entire bit about him being good for a #5 is nonsense. When Dusty sends him out to the mound, I am pretty sure he doesn't tell Leake to pitch like the #5 that he is. Leake is like any other starting pitcher. He is designated to get as many hitters out as possible. If he does that at a #5 level; well, that's not good.

So until we have 5 sub-4 ERA starters I should expect griping?

[texasdave]

Problem is, #5 starters are, by definition, not that good at getting major league hitters out. So expectations must be tempered.

Leake is getting peppered out there. Anyone with a rational, objective eye can see that.

That is all well and good. But don't sit there and try to tell me that somehow that makes Leake a good pitcher, just because he might be better than every other team's flotsam and jetsam.

He does better than expected does not equal a good pitcher. He is still bad. Just not as bad as some other # 5s.

[TheBigLebowski]

If we had the #8 pick in this draft and you guaranteed me he would have the performance/production of Leake I would pick him this year. That assumes all top shelf talent was selected by then.

Then you and I need not carry on this discussion any further. If that's all you expect out of the #8 pick in the draft then we will never find any synthesis in our discussions.

[malcontent]

Problem is, #5 starters are, by definition, not that good at getting major league hitters out. So expectations must be tempered.

Leake is getting peppered out there. Anyone with a rational, objective eye can see that.
I really would be interested in seeing what Manny Parra could do in the rotation.

[TheBigLebowski]

That is all well and good. But don't sit there and try to tell me that somehow that makes Leake a good pitcher, just because he might be better than every other team's flotsam and jetsam.

Whoa, David. You of all people should know I am no Leake fan.

[WebScorpion]

This entire bit about him being good for a #5 is nonsense. When Dusty sends him out to the mound, I am pretty sure he doesn't tell Leake to pitch like the #5 that you are. Leake is like any other starting pitcher. He is designated to get as many hitters out as possible. If he does that at a #5 level; well, that's not good.The maturation of Tony Cingrani is the real danger to Leake. I see him filling the role Arroyo has after Bronson is done...he's the crafty change of pace pitcher you sandwich between a couple fireballers to keep opposing hitters' timing off. Cingrani will be the lefty this rotation has always lacked and has plenty of maturing left to do, but if he knocks down the door to the Major Leagues this season he may force us to deal one of our change of pace guys. :dunno:

[texasdave]

Whoa, David. You of all people should know I am no Leake fan.

I was addressing the board generally, not specifically.

[Crumbley]

You're right. As a 5th starter, he is league-average and he likely won't have any real impact as to our WS chances. My objection to Leake is not his current designation but to the fact that he is even on the team. I hated that pick. Leake is what he was basically projected to be - a 4th/5th starter. Average stuff but throws multiple pitches..."crafty." The kind of pitcher it is easier to forget than remember. I guess I should stop whining about it and just accept it, but I certainly hope we learned a lesson with that pick...you don't blow a top 10 pick (8 overall) on a guy who projects, at best, to be a late-rotation pitcher.

He's a late rotation pitcher because the other four are even better. It's crazy to me how quickly we've become Yankee fans.

[kaldaniels]

Then you and I need not carry on this discussion any further. If that's all you expect out of the #8 pick in the draft then we will never find any synthesis in our discussions.

I have reasonable enough expectations to know what to expect from the 7-9 picks in a draft. If a guy comes out around average for his slot I'm not gonna whine. Of course I hope for better but I won't complain.

[texasdave]

He's a late rotation pitcher because the other four are even better. It's crazy to me how quickly we've become Yankee fans.

It's crazy to me how some people so willingly accept mediocrity.

[TheBigLebowski]

I really would be interested in seeing what Manny Parra could do in the rotation.

Tough to tell if this was sarcastic? I liked Parra's velocity last night but he was hit pretty hard and I don't like his lack of control.

[WebScorpion]

So until we have 5 sub-4 ERA starters I should expect griping?This IS RedsZone, you should always expect griping. It's the nature of the beast. ;)

[50YrRedsFan]

Leake keeping it close...good inning there.

[PuffyPig]

I really would be interested in seeing what Manny Parra could do in the rotation.

So would the rest of the NL.

[malcontent]

Tough to tell if this was sarcastic? I liked Parra's velocity last night but he was hit pretty hard and I don't like his lack of control.
Not sarcasm. I just love to watch lefties and Parra has a nice repertoire of pitches.

Maybe he just needed a change of scenery/pitching coach.

[kaldaniels]

I don't get upset when our pinch hitters don't aquire an all-star caliber stat line. There are cases where I celebrate mediocrity.

Leake 5 IP 2 R

[WebScorpion]

So would the rest of the NL.+1 :clap:

[reds44]

Leake gave up a 2 run HR to Bryce Harper and people just start ripping him.

Hilarious.

[Reds Fanatic]

Choo hit by the pitch

[TheBigLebowski]

He's a late rotation pitcher because the other four are even better. It's crazy to me how quickly we've become Yankee fans.

He's a late rotation pitcher because he's a late rotation pitcher. And if you disagree with my assessment of Leake or anyone else's, don't label our fanbase as Yankee fans.

[_Sir_Charles_]

That is all well and good. But don't sit there and try to tell me that somehow that makes Leake a good pitcher, just because he might be better than every other team's flotsam and jetsam.

He does better than expected does not equal a good pitcher. He is still bad. Just not as bad as some other # 5s.

Agree to disagree.

And with that....Choo with yet another HBP. Sheesh.

[REDSEER]

Choo hit again!

[Tom Servo]

Why does Choo keep getting plunked?

[NebraskaRed]

While you all debate how mediocre Leake is, he just finished 5 innings giving up 2 runs on only 5 hits to the Nationals.

[TheBigLebowski]

Leake gave up a 2 run HR to Bryce Harper and people just start ripping him.

Hilarious.

You don't think that his body of work prior to that bomb might have formulated a few opinions as to his value?

[RedsBrick]

Why does Choo keep getting plunked?

It is weird, but I like it! Well, that he gets on base, at least.

[Reds Fanatic]

Heisey singles to left. 1st and 2nd.

[757690]

I have reasonable enough expectations to know what to expect from the 7-9 picks in a draft. If a guy comes out around average for his slot I'm not gonna whine. Of course I hope for better but I won't complain.

Mike Trout, taken with the 25th pick, is the only player taken after Leake in the that first round, who has been better than Leake. And no one else even comes close, although it's still early, and one or two guys who just reached the majors, could eventually have better careers.

[NebraskaRed]

Is that 4 times now for Choo? Some of those must be intentional, yes?

[TheBigLebowski]

Nice Heisey!

[11larkin11]

No one else in the league has been hit more than once. Choo has been hit 4 times now.

[RiverRat13]

Why does Choo keep getting plunked?

His country gave us Gangnam Style. Somebody must pay.

[PuffyPig]

He's a late rotation pitcher because he's a late rotation pitcher. And if you disagree with my assessment of Leake or anyone else's, don't label our fanbase as Yankee fans.


What else would you call a fan base that refers to a pitcher as "sucks" when he holds the best team in baseball to 2 runs in 5 innings.

[Red Raindog]

Leake gave up a 2 run HR to Bryce Harper and people just start ripping him.

Hilarious.

Yup let a slap hitter like Harper take you deep and you'll never hear the end of it /sarcasm

[Reds Fanatic]

Votto flies out to left.

[757690]

Is that 4 times now for Choo? Some of those must be intentional, yes?

Choo is Korean for "Come on, I dare you."

[bmwreds31]

No one else in the league has been hit more than once. Choo has been hit 4 times now.


and thats why i love him. He's hard nosed. And plays the game right

[REDSEER]

Big AB for Phillips here. Would be nice to get at least one this inning.

[TheBigLebowski]

What else would you call a fan base that refers to a pitcher as "sucks" when he holds the best team in baseball to 2 runs in 5 innings.

A lot of folks around here are slaves to a stat called "BABIP," and Leake has been very BABIP-fortunate today. And since when do we consider it a given that WASH is the best team in baseball? Might be us, broseph.

[757690]

Should have bunted Votto there :evil:

[_Sir_Charles_]

It's crazy to me how some people so willingly accept mediocrity.

But here's the thing, he's been here 3 years, not spent any time in the minors, is still extremely young...and he's putting up ML average numbers. That's not mediocrity. That's youth and inexperience. Leake still has considerable upside and should continue to improve.

You'd think we would've learned our lessons with Homer Bailey. I guess not.

[BluegrassRedleg]

Dang... Would it kill a guy to take a pitch or two?

[Reds Fanatic]

Big missed oppurtunity there as Phillips grounds into a 4-6-3 DP. 2-1 Nationals after 5.

[Maker_84]

Dont fricking blow this

[TheBigLebowski]

GRRRRRR

[PuffyPig]

and thats why i love him. He's hard nosed. And plays the game right

I think I see the word "scrappy" coming up here.....

[reds44]

You don't think that his body of work prior to that bomb might have formulated a few opinions as to his value?
Dude is 83-78 with a 4.23 ERA in his career, I didn't realize he had turned into Eric Milton as a Red.

[Matt700wlw]

We've seen this before...

[texasdave]

But here's the thing, he's been here 3 years, not spent any time in the minors, is still extremely young...and he's putting up ML average numbers. That's not mediocrity. That's youth and inexperience. Leake still has considerable upside and should continue to improve.

You'd think we would've learned our lessons with Homer Bailey. I guess not.

No. The results are still mediocre regardless of the circumstances. Scoreboard is scoreboard. If other factors give you hope for the future, fine. But the results speak for themselves. And they are saying mediocre.

[kaldaniels]

Dang... Would it kill a guy to take a pitch or two?

There's a fine line sometimes between taking pitches and getting buried in the count. But yeah if you hack at the first one we need some production.

[AintlifeGrande]

Anybody here part of the Montgomery Inn crowd?

[Maker_84]

Team still struggles mightily when not hitting homeruns

[50YrRedsFan]

Team still struggles mightily when not hitting homeruns

Fact

[malcontent]

His country gave us Gangnam Style. Somebody must pay.
Agreed, but it should be Sergio Romo instead.

[UCBrownsfan]

batdudedp

[Tony Cloninger]

Should have bunted Votto there :evil:

Should have not swung at an inside 3-0 pitch.

OK this board is back to being as fast as Tim McClenan calls balls and strikes.

[bmwreds31]

Team still struggles mightily when not hitting homeruns


Could argue hitting homeruns is just player talent. BUT manufacturing runs is Coached. hmmmmmm Cough*Dusty*Cough

[Reds Fanatic]

Tracy strikes out looking.

[_Sir_Charles_]

No one else in the league has been hit more than once. Choo has been hit 4 times now.

I have noticed that he doesn't exactly dive out of the way. He hangs in there like Biggio and Bonds used to....without the armor.

[TheBigLebowski]

But here's the thing, he's been here 3 years, not spent any time in the minors, is still extremely young...and he's putting up ML average numbers. That's not mediocrity. That's youth and inexperience. Leake still has considerable upside and should continue to improve.

You'd think we would've learned our lessons with Homer Bailey. I guess not.

Not a bad point and I have considered this with regards to Leake. But Homer always had that big-time arm. Leake was a guy who we knew would have to get by with guile and savvy. Leake's not going to develop into someone who can overwhelm people with his stuff. Homer was. Leake will get better with time, I'm sure. My penultimate point was that you don't take a guy like that at 8. You take the guy with upside. Maybe you get Brien Taylor or Chad Mottola. But maybe you get a Bryce Harper. League-average #4/5 starters can be acquired at reasonable costs in any MLB off-season.

[reds44]

We're in game 5 of the season, Reds have 1 run thru 5 innings, and we've already concluded they can't score without hitting HRs.

[NebraskaRed]

Team still struggles mightily when not hitting homeruns

97 wins last year, 3-1 so far this year against 2 powerful teams.

[Reds Fanatic]

Desmond strikes out swinging. 4 Ks for Leake

[Stray]

Leake is rolling along nicely now.

[_Sir_Charles_]

KKKK

[PuffyPig]

Team still struggles mightily when not hitting homeruns

So does the game thread......

[TheBigLebowski]

Dude is 83-78 with a 4.23 ERA in his career, I didn't realize he had turned into Eric Milton as a Red.

And you're acting like that's a mitigating factor?

I've seen you run down a ton of players before. Stop acting like it's poor form to be critical of or not like a player.

[kaldaniels]

Not a bad point and I have considered this with regards to Leake. But Homer always had that big-time arm. Leake was a guy who we knew would have to get by with guile and savvy. Leake's not going to develop into someone who can overwhelm people with his stuff. Homer was. Leake will get better with time, I'm sure. My penultimate point was that you don't take a guy like that at 8. You take the guy with upside. Maybe you get Brien Taylor or Chad Mottola. But maybe you get a Bryce Harper. League-average #4/5 starters can be acquired at reasonable costs in any MLB off-season.

Leake is a league average 5 at worst. If he puts up 3 more years of production to match his first 3, he will make 6-8 MM a year in free agency (at worst).

[11larkin11]

We're in game 5 of the season, Reds have 1 run thru 5 innings, and we've already concluded they can't score without hitting HRs.

We've also determined Jay Bruce is going to have a terrible season, Mike Leake should be sent down, Mesoraco won't start a game all year, and Cingrani is going to win the Cy Young.

[reds44]

And you're acting like that's a mitigating factor?

I've seen you run down a ton of players before. Stop acting like it's poor form to be critical of or not like a player.
Run him down after he gives up a 2 run HR to Bryce Harper? Good God. You're only making yourself look bad.

[Reds Fanatic]

Espinosa walks

[Matt700wlw]

We've also determined Jay Bruce is going to have a terrible season, Mike Leake should be sent down, Mesoraco won't start a game all year, and Cingrani is going to win the Cy Young.

Sounds about right.

[PuffyPig]

Leake is a league average 5 at worst. If he puts up 3 more years of production to match his first 3, he will make 6-8 MM a year in free agency (at worst).

He's actually closer to a league average starter in his career.

[TheBigLebowski]

Run him down after he gives up a 2 run HR to Bryce Harper? Good God.

From the guy who says we can't score runs without hitting homers when we did just that.

Move on.

[_Sir_Charles_]

No. The results are still mediocre regardless of the circumstances. Scoreboard is scoreboard. If other factors give you hope for the future, fine. But the results speak for themselves. And they are saying mediocre.

Well, I take other factors into the equation. Like his age and experience. Compared to other pitchers his age and with his time in the bigs, he's above average. Considerably.

Agree to disagree and let it go at that I'd think. :beerme:

[kaldaniels]

He's actually closer to a league average starter in his career.

I was going on worst case, considering the audience.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Jeez Devin! Ugh.

[TheBigLebowski]

Mes...geez

[kaldaniels]

Jeez Devin! Ugh.

Nope

[_Sir_Charles_]

Lucky. Interference on Ramos.

[Stray]

Nice break there

[Reds Fanatic]

Espinosa has to go back to first as Ramos interfered with the throw

[reds44]

From the guy who says we can't score runs without hitting homers when we did just that.

Move on.
I suggest you fix your sarcasm meter.

[TheBigLebowski]

whew...

[Matt700wlw]

That throw didn't count.

[kaldaniels]

Lucky. Interferance on Ramos.

Not lucky, the bat whacked him.

[TheBigLebowski]

I suggest you fix your sarcasm meter.

I'm not trying to start some sort of fight with anyone.

If you like Leake, fine. I respect that. I don't think he's a very good pitcher. My opinion.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Not a bad point and I have considered this with regards to Leake. But Homer always had that big-time arm. Leake was a guy who we knew would have to get by with guile and savvy. Leake's not going to develop into someone who can overwhelm people with his stuff. Homer was. Leake will get better with time, I'm sure. My penultimate point was that you don't take a guy like that at 8. You take the guy with upside. Maybe you get Brien Taylor or Chad Mottola. But maybe you get a Bryce Harper. League-average #4/5 starters can be acquired at reasonable costs in any MLB off-season.

"Stuff" is more than just velocity. Movement is a BIG factor in "stuff". And Leake has that portion in spades. And he's not exactly a soft tosser either.

[reds44]

I'm not trying to start some sort of fight with anyone.

If you like Leake, fine. I respect that. I don't think he's a very good pitcher. My opinion.
That's fine. Don't overreact when he gives up a 2 run HR to one of the most talented players in baseball.

[Matt700wlw]

Ouch

[kaldaniels]

I'm not trying to start some sort of fight with anyone.

If you like Leake, fine. I respect that. I don't think he's a very good pitcher. My opinion.

I respect your view too. But for perspective, how many good starters do you think are in the majors?

[reds44]

Now you have my permission to rip Leake lol

[_Sir_Charles_]

Damn. 4-1 Nats.

[Stray]

Big ouch after getting ahead 0-2.

[Reds Fanatic]

Ramos homers to center 4-1 Nationals

[bmwreds31]

well poop!

[Matt700wlw]

There's a Leake in the rotation....

I'll be here until Thursday, tip your waitress.

[TheBigLebowski]

That's fine. Don't overreact when he gives up a 2 run HR to one of the most talented players in baseball.

If you've been fortunate enough to follow my posts during the several years I languished away in anonymity in the Sun Deck, you'd know the Harper homer was far from the first criticism I offered towards Leake. I've never liked him.

And I still don't like him after this latest jack. He's just not good.

[bmwreds31]

were going to need homeruns now.

[texasdave]

It's okay. He is still doing good for a #5.