4/26/13 - Reds @ DC

[Tom Servo]

A Sunday Special...on a Friday night

Choo CF
Izturis SS
Votto 1B
Phillips 2B
Bruce RF
Frazier 3B
Paul LF
Miller C
Bailey P

[cumberlandreds]

Great. I'll be there. Maybe they can get more than one hit tonight. Last year I saw the Red twice in DC and they scored two runs. One each game. Looks like it will be the same this year.

[Kc61]

I guess Dusty is hitting Izturis second and Paul seventh because Izturis is a switch hitter so the Reds won't find themselves lefty,lefty,lefty against a lefty.

I disagree with this, Paul is the better hitter, and Reds are likely to hit for Paul if a lefty reliever comes in against him. So likely it won't be lefty, lefty, lefty against a lefty.

I think the use of XMan by this team is poor. Hitting him seventh in front of Corky Miller defeats much of the purpose of using him out there.

Do. Not. Agree.

[cumberlandreds]

^ Number one rule; SS always hit 2nd. :)

[CySeymour]

Dusty's lineup construction has gotten too laughable. He loves the old notion have having a poor hitter hit second so he can bunt runners over. However, he never has said hitter bunt anyone, but still ends up giving away outs.

[Gizmo]

Going to be headed down there soon. I'm optimistic about the offense showing up tonight, they're due again after the last few games. Let's hope Homer continues his run of solid outings.

[RedsBrick]

Would rather see this:

Choo
Phillips
Votto
Frazier
Bruce
Paul
Izturis
Miller
Bailey

[NatiRedGals]

Mind blown didn't notice I could post on the game thread again! I have missed this why I haven't been on in so long. Looking forward to getting back in the game I hope the reds are tonight! What a lineup ...

[_Sir_Charles_]

Well, many are getting their wishes. Cozart is NOT batting second. Paul IS replacing Heisey. And Corky gets to flaunt his fabulous lip warmer to his undying fans.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Would rather see this:

Choo
Phillips
Votto
Frazier
Bruce
Paul
Izturis
Miller
Bailey

Would rather see this:

Rose
Griffey
Morgan
Bench
Perez
Foster
Geronimo
Concepcion
Bailey :O)

There are times when I look back on that club and wonder what kind of payroll it would take in today's market to have them on the same team. Mind. Blown.

Speaking of the 75 Reds....after 23 games, we're currently 13-10...big red machine was 12-11. Just sayin.

[REDREAD]

ok, I am generally a Dusty defender.. but Izturus 2nd? :lol:

Hope the magic works.

Who was the reserve infielder that got a few hits, and Dusty called him the "good luck charm"?
Was that Cairo the first year he got here or someone else? Hopefully Iz gets some of that magic.

[Red Raindog]

Would rather see this:

Rose
Griffey
Morgan
Bench
Perez
Foster
Geronimo
Concepcion
Bailey :O)

There are times when I look back on that club and wonder what kind of payroll it would take in today's market to have them on the same team. Mind. Blown.

Speaking of the 75 Reds....after 23 games, we're currently 13-10...big red machine was 12-11. Just sayin.

Why can I only like this one time?

[NebraskaRed]

I'm interested to see how this lineup works tonight. Hoping the offense wakes up.

Bold prediction: Corky goes 0-4 but his mustache hits a triple, and then is thrown out of the game for being too awesome.

[reds44]

Corky Miller being in the lineup tonight means I won't watch.

[klw]

Would rather see this:

Rose
Griffey
Morgan
Bench
Perez
Foster
Geronimo
Concepcion
Bailey :O)
.

Would you take Votto over Perez?

[RedsBrick]

Would rather see this:

Rose
Griffey
Morgan
Bench
Perez
Foster
Geronimo
Concepcion
Bailey :O)

There are times when I look back on that club and wonder what kind of payroll it would take in today's market to have them on the same team. Mind. Blown.

Speaking of the 75 Reds....after 23 games, we're currently 13-10...big red machine was 12-11. Just sayin.

...and I suspect this year's version will go on a nice little run too...just like they did last year.

George Foster was one of my favorite players. A MONSTER year in 1977...batted .320 with 52 jacks and 149 RBI.

[RedsBrick]

[QUOTE=_Sir_Charles_;2841524]Would rather see this:

Rose
Griffey
Morgan
Bench
Perez
Foster
Geronimo
Concepcion
Bailey :O)


Morgan would never be in the three with Dusty.

[klw]

ctrent ‏@ctrent 2h

Nats' Russ Detweiler had to keep stopping during his bullpen session, because he was being peppered by balls from Votto & Bruce

[Brutus]

I guess Dusty is hitting Izturis second and Paul seventh because Izturis is a switch hitter so the Reds won't find themselves lefty,lefty,lefty against a lefty.

I disagree with this, Paul is the better hitter, and Reds are likely to hit for Paul if a lefty reliever comes in against him. So likely it won't be lefty, lefty, lefty against a lefty.

I think the use of XMan by this team is poor. Hitting him seventh in front of Corky Miller defeats much of the purpose of using him out there.

Do. Not. Agree.

Paul is a 28-year old with a .679 OPS in 500+ career plate appearances. I think some perspective is in order.

[klw]

[QUOTE=_Sir_Charles_;2841524]Would rather see this:

Rose
Griffey
Morgan
Bench
Perez
Foster
Geronimo
Concepcion
Bailey :O)

Morgan would never be in the three with Dusty.

With those front 8 it would be have been impossible in come up with an ineffective lineup in 75-76 though remember the lineup didn't start that way in 75. http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN197504070.shtml . Following cliched "Dusty rules" it still would have looked like:

Geronimo CF
Concepcion SS
Morgan Lefty, like dat dude
Perez RBIs good
Griffey Got to split up the lefties
Rose LF
Bench C - catchers can't go higher than 7th
Vukovich 3B
Pitcher


Realistically if it had to be different from the eventual I could see Baker doing:

Morgan
Concepcion
Rose
Bench
Perez
Geronimo
Vukovich
Griffey
Pitcher

[Joesh]

7 pitch inning :P. I feel like all this extra baseball we were getting is now being offset by us watch the Reds bat for about an hour total each game

[klw]

Is it getaway day? BP out on 1st pitch of the 2nd.

[OnBaseMachine]

Five outs on 11 pitches for Zimmerman. Better hope Bailey throws a shutout tonight.

[New York Red]

Way to make him work, guys. :thumbdown:

[OnBaseMachine]

The Reds have one hit in their last 12 innings.

[TheBigLebowski]

Feast or famine. Slowly as the NFL Draft moves, it is infinitely more entertaining than watching the Reds when they're playing like this.

[Vottomatic]

Feast or famine. Slowly as the NFL Draft moves, it is infinitely more entertaining than watching the Reds when they're playing like this.

Glad you said it and not me.

[TheBigLebowski]

Glad you said it and not me.

Meh. We're all thinking it.

[Vottomatic]

I like the pick of Bernard. Especially with Cyprien taken by the Jags.

[TheBigLebowski]

Nice work Homer..

[OnBaseMachine]

Bailey gives up a two out double to Desmond but K's Espinosa to end the inning. No score after two innings.

[TheBigLebowski]

I like the pick of Bernard. Especially with Cyprien taken by the Jags.

If Cyprien was still there I hope we would have taken him, but I love Bernard. He's a real playmaker.

Is that a hit????? Paul???

[OnBaseMachine]

Paul lines a single to center to begin the 3rd inning.

[Tom Servo]

X gon give it to ya

[TheBigLebowski]

Corky puts a charge into one...first pitch...sigh...30 feet behind 2nd.

[Red in Chicago]

has corky ever gotten a hit:eek:

[OnBaseMachine]

Corky flies out to shallow CF on the first pitch.

[holster10]

Corky is NOT in the lineup for his bat...

[OnBaseMachine]

Bailey K's. Two outs.

[TheBigLebowski]

Corky is NOT in the lineup for his bat...

At this point, I'm thinking it's just for the novelty of the push broom. He's not a MLB-caliber baseball player anymore. Hasn't been for a while.

[OnBaseMachine]

Choo grounds out on a 3-1 pitch to end the inning. May have been ball 4. No score after 2 1/2.

[holster10]

boy, this offense is in the dumper....

[OnBaseMachine]

Suzuki K's swinging on a nasty 0-2 pitch from Bailey. Split-finger. 2 K's for Bailey.

[OnBaseMachine]

Jordan Zimmerman K's swinging on what looked like a changeup. Whatever it was, it had nasty movement. 3 K's.

[OnBaseMachine]

Span K's swinging on a high fastball. Four consecutive strikeouts for Homer Bailey. Please go ahead and sign him long term too.

No score after 3.

[malcontent]

I think the use of XMan by BAKER is poor.
Fixed that for you.

He's obviously going to have to hit .450 to get as much PT as Heisey.

[TheBigLebowski]

Cesar rockets one to first...amazing that LaRoche could corral that one. One down.

[OnBaseMachine]

I'm stunned LaRoche got in front of that ball Izturis hit. He's got a wife and kids to think about.

[TheBigLebowski]

That's why you bat Izturis at #2, before Votto. JV protects him, so he can see pitches like that. Allowing Cesar to be Cesar. Dude's literally been pitched around his entire career. His career stats offer no other logical conclusion.

[OnBaseMachine]

Strike 3 called on Votto. That same pitch was called a ball on Denard Span last inning.

[R_Webb18]

if votto doesn't swing it must be a ball :)

[OnBaseMachine]

Reds have 2 hits in their last 14 innings. No score after 3 1/2.

[holster10]

right now, the batter order doesn't matter, nobody is hitting. maybe it's the corky miller effect?

[OnBaseMachine]

Great play by Phillips to throw Lombardozzi out at first on a bouncer up the middle. One out.

[RedsBrick]

The ghosts of Drew Stubbs and the Donkey must be lingering around the Reds' dugout because this team is striking out at an alarming rate. Tied for 2nd most in MLB.

[OnBaseMachine]

2-2 pitch to Harper called ball 3, but it was strike 3 on Votto. Now he triples. Good job, ump. Way to be consistent.

[Vottomatic]

I hate Harper.

[Redsfansince72]

its amazing a kid being just 20 can hit like he can like its easy and our wonderful hitters as a team cant find first base on a consistent basis. AND it seems on the road our team is always playing behind..grrrr

[Red Raindog]

Just got in from playing with my new tractor to see the offense is still somewhere near the Arctic and Harper drops a 3 bagger followed by a drawn-in single

ugh

[Caveat Emperor]

You know, the Reds were crap for over a decade and never got a pitcher even close to as good as Strasburg is or a hitter even on the same planet as Harper with their high draft picks.

[Vottomatic]

It's only 1 month, but it just doesn't seem like our Reds are clicking. Frustrating.

[OnBaseMachine]

Missed strike 3 call haunts Bailey. 1-0 Nats after a Werth single.

[Tom Servo]

You know, the Reds were crap for over a decade and never got a pitcher even close to as good as Strasburg is or a hitter even on the same planet as Harper with their high draft picks.
Hey, Chris Gruler and Austin Kearns may still work out yet!

[Redsfansince72]

if the Reds go 1-9 on the road trip, there better be a coaching change at hitting coach!!!

[Vottomatic]

Bengals pick next.

[Red Raindog]

It's only 1 month, but it just doesn't seem like our Reds are clicking. Frustrating.

it's clicking - but those clicks are the trigger pulled on an empty chamber

[TheBigLebowski]

Bengals with a 2nd WTF pick - Marcus Hunt, DE, SMU. So much wrong with this pick.

[OnBaseMachine]

1-0 Nationals after 4. Bailey has 5 K's.

[Vottomatic]

it's clicking - but those clicks are the trigger pulled on an empty chamber

I had a political joke about bullets, but I've decided not to touch that. Tensions are already high with the offense hanging out with Santa at the North Pole.

[nate]

Chat is open!

[Vottomatic]

Bengals with a 2nd WTF pick - Marcus Hunt, DE, SMU. So much wrong with this pick.

Beat me to it.

I don't get it either. They were doing well until this one.

[Red Raindog]

I think Thom has noticed the lack of offense

[Red Raindog]

Little League error there

[holster10]

Corky Miller really offers nothing at the plate.

[OnBaseMachine]

Reds now with 2 hits in their last 15 innings. You can only live off a few 10+ run games for so long.

Corky has seen two pitches in two plate appearances.

[holster10]

Side note, every one of Votto's HRs have been solo jobs.

[Kc61]

Paul is a 28-year old with a .679 OPS in 500+ career plate appearances. I think some perspective is in order.

Paul has well over a .800 OPS since joining the Reds, had excellent minor league numbers over a large sample. His lifetime numbers mean nothing to me, they are the result of only 400 PAs in which he didn't do well in his first major league go around. I think highly of him.

In having perspective, it makes sense to realize that some players require more major league experience than others. Writing someone off because of 400 early PAs IMO reflects a lack of perspective.

[faffy42]

I keep going back and forth between watching the game...and watching some paint dry on a wall of mine. The paint drying is actually more interesting. The color of the paint coat actually changes as it dries!

[OnBaseMachine]

1-2-3 5th inning for Bailey.

1-0 Nationals after 5.

[malcontent]

Corky Miller really offers nothing at the plate.
Jocketty asleep at the wheel here, AFAIC.

[OnBaseMachine]

Another one pitch out. Incredible. 51 pitches in 5.1 IP. This game may be over.

[OnBaseMachine]

Reds again go down 1-2-3 without even making solid contact.

[holster10]

yawn....

[holster10]

i think a combine demolition derby would be more exciting than this.

[757690]

I actually love pitching duels. Just wish the Reds were winning this one.

[OnBaseMachine]

Once again the umps screw the Reds. Span was caught stealing by six inches.

[Jamz]

How do you miss that call?

[Always Red]

Wow, terrible call.

[757690]

Once again the umps screw the Reds. Span was caught stealing by six inches.

Worst part, the ump was in perfect position. Just a terrible call.

[RedsBrick]

I'm confused if it's a pitching duel or if the Reds just continue to suck at the plate right not.

[Always Red]

Walk Harper

[757690]

That was our good buddy Sam Holbrook, of the "infield fly" call in the Braves/Cards playoff game last year.

[OnBaseMachine]

Great play by Bailey and Corky to get the runner at home! Two outs.

[Red in Chicago]

wow...homer with a stellar play and corky holds on for the out...spectacular

[Always Red]

Walk Harper

I stand corrected.

Mr.Homer knows what he is doing out there.

Props to the Stache for standing his ground.

[Jamz]

Bailey has really been zoned in tonight. Especially with his glove.

[OnBaseMachine]

What a play by Corky Miller to pick Harper off at 1B! 1-0 Nationals after six innings.

[Red in Chicago]

omg, corky with back to back solid plays...he can now go hitless the rest of the night :p

[Always Red]

Corky with 2 excellent defensive plays in the inning.

Maybe Walt knows what he's doing after all??

[Jamz]

It's time to make some noise with the bats. Meat of the order with a huge two momentum swinging plays. I really hope that the Reds can come to bat for Bailey here.

[50YrRedsFan]

Cardinals with 2 (Matt Carpenter HR) in the 1st against the Bucs....2-0 with 2 on and no out, bot 1

[OnBaseMachine]

Unreal. Votto grounds out weakly on the first pitch to begin the 7th inning. Only question is will the Reds lose 1-0 or will the Nationals score another run?

[Jamz]

Such an uncharacteristic season of Votto...

[OnBaseMachine]

Bruce pops out weakly on a 2-0 count. Six pitch inning. This is one of the worst offensive performances I've ever seen.

[Red Raindog]

It's time to make some noise with the bats. Meat of the order with a huge two momentum swinging plays. I really hope that the Reds can come to bat for Bailey here.

or not

:(

[holster10]

Zimmerman has it going. It's a shut out tonight folks....

[50YrRedsFan]

Pirates pitcher Jonathan Sanchez and manager Clint Hurdle ejected in 1st inning of Cards-Bucs game after Sanchez hit Allen Craig with a pitch.

[50YrRedsFan]

Bruce pops out weakly on a 2-0 count. Six pitch inning. This is one of the worst offensive performances I've ever seen.

Tonight's game, or are you just continuing the trend of the past few games?

[New York Red]

Zimmerman has it going. It's a shut out tonight folks....
I think it's as much about the Reds offense as it is about Zimmerman. Starting pitchers must salivate when they see the Reds up next on their schedule.

[faffy42]

Funny...just when you think the paint is dry and touch it...bam its still wet!! Paint is so deceptive sometimes.

[Wonderful Monds]

Well the offense sure went to hell this week didnt it?

[OnBaseMachine]

Bailey: 7 IP, 5 H, 1 R, 0 BB, 6 K's, 87 pitches.

Reds trail 1-0 heading to the 8th inning.

[Gunner44]

I don't post much but I've lurked for 10 years lol. Now that the back story is out of the way, I'm a reds eternal optimist and this offense is killing me!.........ps thanks to eveyone here I know so much about baseball and love trumping my friends lol

[malcontent]

Does Baker let Miller bat again?

[Red Raindog]

I feel like I'm watching the 66 White Sox --- 2.68 ERA and managed to win 83 games

[R_Webb18]

66 pitches in 8th kinda funny

[Tom Servo]

Zimmerman has thrown less than 70 pitches going into the 8th. Wow.

[OnBaseMachine]

Frazier nearly hit by a pitch on 2-2, then weakly grounds out on 3-2. Why am I still watching this? Reds have no chance of scoring.

[OnBaseMachine]

74 pitches in 7.2 innings.

[TheBigLebowski]

It's just no fun to watch this team.

[R_Webb18]

this is sad. 76 pitches

[50YrRedsFan]

I feel like I'm watching the 66 White Sox --- 2.68 ERA and managed to win 83 games

Horlen, Peters, T. John, Wilhelm.....great pitching, but couldn't buy runs. Only 87 HR all year.

[TheBigLebowski]

Tomorrow Votto will hit a solo homer, we'll score 9 runs and everyone will lecture those of us lamenting this offense as being crazy and premature.

[OnBaseMachine]

Corky Miller draws a two out walk. Bailey being pinch hit for by Jack Hannahan. Derrick Robinson pinch running for Miller.

[ThatPitchIsDunn]

It's just no fun to watch this offense.

Fixed that for ya. More often than not, the starting pitching has been a joy.

[New York Red]

And the Reds offense once again costs Homer Bailey a Win.

[RedsBrick]

Highlight of the game so far is a Corky Miller walk = really bad night

[Tom Servo]

It's just no fun to watch this team.
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95142

deja vu

[Always Red]

It's just no fun to watch this team.

Big man, I think you meant it's no fun to watch this team TONIGHT.

These last couple of years are the most fun I've had watching Reds baseball in 25 years!!

[OnBaseMachine]

Pathetic. Reds trail 1-0 heading to the bottom of the 8th.

[Always Red]

And the Reds offense once again costs Homer Bailey a Win.

Wins mean nothing anymore for SP's, it's an outdated stat.

Homer is a stud and the ace of this staff.

[Spazzrico]

Am I right? 2 hits over 17 innings?

[Mutaman]

Look on the bright side- if Heisey had started we'd be getting no hit.

[50YrRedsFan]

How long has it been since the Reds were held to 1 hit in consecutive games?

[OnBaseMachine]

Am I right? 2 hits over 17 innings?

Right. 2 hits in 18 innings if you go back to Wednesday.

[50YrRedsFan]

Right. 2 hits in 18 innings if you go back to Wednesday.

5 runs total in the past 4 games.

[OnBaseMachine]

How long has it been since the Reds were held to 1 hit in consecutive games?

July of 1900.

The #Reds haven’t been held to 1 hit in consecutive games since 7/5-7/6, 1900 vs Brooklyn at Cincinnati’s League Park. Courtesy Elias Sports

https://twitter.com/JimDayTV

[OnBaseMachine]

Will Dusty let Izturis bat in the 9th inning?

[New York Red]

Wins mean nothing anymore for SP's, it's an outdated stat.
That's BS sabre-logic. Ask any starting pitcher if wins mean anything to them. Look at Homer's face when he was pulled for a pinch hitter tonight and tell me wins don't mean anything to him. And please save me the sabre-lecture. I've heard it all before.

[dougdirt]

Will Dusty let Izturis bat in the 9th inning?

Absolutely. What if the game winds up tied? You can't have a short bench for extras.

[Red Raindog]

July of 1900.

The #Reds haven’t been held to 1 hit in consecutive games since 7/5-7/6, 1900 vs Brooklyn at Cincinnati’s League Park. Courtesy Elias Sports

https://twitter.com/JimDayTV

watching history

I feel so much better

[dougdirt]

That's BS sabre-logic. Ask any starting pitcher if wins mean anything to them. Look at Homer's face when he was pulled for a pinch hitter tonight and tell me wins don't mean anything to him. And please save me the sabre-lecture. I've heard it all before.

I am sure it means something to Homer. I can't wait for the day in which the win stat being given to a player is abolished. It is beyond stupid to credit a single player for the win or the loss.

[Red Raindog]

That's BS sabre-logic. Ask any starting pitcher if wins mean anything to them. Look at Homer's face when he was pulled for a pinch hitter tonight and tell me wins don't mean anything to him. And please save me the sabre-lecture. I've heard it all before.

I think your sarcasm detector needs a tune up

at least that is how I took it

[OnBaseMachine]

1-0 Nationals heading to the 9th inning.

[50YrRedsFan]

I am sure it means something to Homer. I can't wait for the day in which the win stat being given to a player is abolished. It is beyond stupid to credit a single player for the win or the loss.

Reds pitchers 'have' been playing by themselves...they surely haven't had help from the offense.

[R_Webb18]

Will Dusty let Izturis bat in the 9th inning?

He let Corky bat (I understand he walked).

[leeech86]

here we go...

[Tom Servo]

Brox lowers his ERA a bit.

[TheBigLebowski]

Trying to be positive..

Let's go get this one, Reds!!!

[OnBaseMachine]

Choo's on base streak comes to an end.

[holster10]

amazing.....everything has been hit right at the Nationals.

[OnBaseMachine]

Hahaha! Dusty is letting Izturis bat for himself. Hilarious.

[R_Webb18]

haha

[TheBigLebowski]

Big man, I think you meant it's no fun to watch this team TONIGHT.

These last couple of years are the most fun I've had watching Reds baseball in 25 years!!

Which, sadly, says a lot about the state of the franchise over the past two and half decades more than it does this team.

[50YrRedsFan]

Reds really making Zimmerman work. 2 outs on 3 pitches

[Joesh]

hell of an effort here by the reds in the 9th

[50YrRedsFan]

Choo's on base streak comes to an end.

happened last night

[TheBigLebowski]

Pathetic.

[R_Webb18]

1 hit again

[NeilHamburger]

Pathetic. Changes need to be made. No effort. Just f'n pathetic

[kbrake]

91 pitch shutout. Team plays EXACTLY the way Dusty wants them to at the plate. Solid work.

[Red in Chicago]

mercy...hats off to the nats pitching...

[50YrRedsFan]

Anyone concerned about the Reds offense yet?

[New York Red]

I think your sarcasm detector needs a tune up

at least that is how I took it
If it was sarcasm, then this entire site is sarcasm. I've heard all the sabre BS a million times. To say a win for a starting pitcher "means nothing" is ridiculous. I get tired of posters tearing other posters down because they dare say a non-sabre stat is in any way meaningful to a player. Some of you guys will spin anything into an argument just so you can say you won an internet thread, as if it awards you a badge of courage or something. Guess what, most of us don't care about that "honor".

[holster10]

what a joke of an offensive effort.....all week the REds have stunk.

[OnBaseMachine]

Dusty let Izturis bat for himself, and he fouled out on the first pitch. Why did Castellini want Dusty back again? He should have stayed out of it and let Walt pick his own manager.

[RedsBrick]

a 5 pitch inning to mercifully put an end to this one!

[Tom Servo]

We're still bad.


Get em tomorrow.

[ThatPitchIsDunn]

I just looked at the clock - was that game really 2 hours and 10 min long? Yeesh.

[scott91575]

Another day, another hit. So, who with get the 1 hit tomorrow?

[edabbs44]

One hit two nights in a row. And it is Dusty's fault. Right.

[holster10]

by the 5th or 6th inning you could just tell the Reds stood no chance against Zimmerman. He was very tough but the benefactor of having everything hit right at the defenders. Even on the few lasers hit to the outfield, the outfielders hardly had to move.

[Billy_Bearcat]

Homer deserved better. We have an outstanding pitching staff. But apparently we make other pitching staffs look better. Apparently every opponent has Spahn and Sain.

[Always Red]

That's BS sabre-logic. Ask any starting pitcher if wins mean anything to them. Look at Homer's face when he was pulled for a pinch hitter tonight and tell me wins don't mean anything to him. And please save me the sabre-lecture. I've heard it all before.

NYR, I'm the least saber dude you will ever find. It's a completely BS stat.

A far better stat would be a team's win/loss record for an SP's start.

[kbrake]

One hit two nights in a row. And it is Dusty's fault. Right.

If this were an isolated thing no one would say a word about Dusty. You have read his quotes plenty. You really don't think he has an impact on the approaches these guys have at the plate? He doesn't see the value in working the count and working pitchers. It is always see ball hit ball with him.

[R_Webb18]

Ha Bailey now 1-2. Seems fair.

[Mutaman]

Don't get too up when you win, don't get too down when you lose. In the long run, the most significant thing that happened tonight was more proof by Homer that he is abig time pitcher. Choo was bound to cool off, Votto and Bruce are bound to start hitting. Ludwick will come back some day. Wish we could start getting it together on the road though. Get enm tomorrow.

[R_Webb18]

Stuff like lineup don't matter if your only going to get 1 hit but in the long run it will matter.

[Red Raindog]

If it was sarcasm, then this entire site is sarcasm. I've heard all the sabre BS a million times. To say a win for a starting pitcher "means nothing" is ridiculous. I get tired of posters tearing other posters down because they dare say a non-sabre stat is in any way meaningful to a player. Some of you guys will spin anything into an argument just so you can say you won an internet thread, as if it awards you a badge of courage or something. Guess what, most of us don't care about that "honor".

I'm glad you got that off your chest ---

[edabbs44]

NYR, I'm the least saber dude you will ever find. It's a completely BS stat.

It is obviously flawed, however it cracks me up when that stat gets ridiculed and yet one of the "smarter ones" (runs created) actually gives credit for runs created when a run doesn't score.

Lots of stats and metrics have flaws. The trick is to keep that in mind when using such statistics.

[New York Red]

NYR, I'm the least saber dude you will ever find. It's a completely BS stat.
Show me one pitcher who doesn't care about chalking up Wins. I hear sabre honks say it all the time, but I've yet to hear an actual pitcher say it. I never said wins are more important than some other stats. I just said the Reds offense cost Homer another W. I don't really think that's even debatable.

Sorry if I come off as steamed -- it's only because of the Reds offense -- but the condescending attitudes of some of the posters on this site makes it hard to enjoy this place at times. I guess I just don't get the thrill that comes with winning a message board argument. That's not directed at you personally, AR, as I like you as a poster.

[Always Red]

If it was sarcasm, then this entire site is sarcasm. I've heard all the sabre BS a million times. To say a win for a starting pitcher "means nothing" is ridiculous. I get tired of posters tearing other posters down because they dare say a non-sabre stat is in any way meaningful to a player. Some of you guys will spin anything into an argument just so you can say you won an internet thread, as if it awards you a badge of courage or something. Guess what, most of us don't care about that "honor".

You anger towards me is misplaced. I didn't tear you or anyone else down.

I'm not looking for a "win".

Someone kick your dog today?

Because our response was way out of line with what I posted

[OnBaseMachine]

The Reds have played 24 games this season. They've scored 1 run or less in nine of those games. The problem is the offense.

[New York Red]

You anger towards me is misplaced. I didn't tear you or anyone else down.

I'm not looking for a "win".

Someone kick your dog today?

Because our response was way out of line with what I posted
My response was actually directed at others on this site. I shouldn't have used your post to vent. I apologize.

[Always Red]

Show me one pitcher who doesn't care about chalking up Wins. I hear sabre honks say it all the time, but I've yet to hear an actual pitcher say it. I never said wins are more important than some other stats. I just said the Reds offense cost Homer another W. I don't really think that's even debatable.

Sorry if I come off as steamed -- it's only because of the Reds offense -- but the condescending attitudes of some of the posters on this site makes it hard to enjoy this place at times. I guess I just don't get the thrill that comes with winning a message board argument. That's not directed at you personally, AR, as I like you as a poster.

I agree, NYR, the offense is to blame. It frustrates me as well.

All good. :beerme:

[edabbs44]

If this were an isolated thing no one would say a word about Dusty. You have read his quotes plenty. You really don't think he has an impact on the approaches these guys have at the plate? He doesn't see the value in working the count and working pitchers. It is always see ball hit ball with him.

Does he affect everyone or only those who go into slumps. Going into tonight they have the most runs in the NL of teams who don't play at Coors.

[New York Red]

I agree, NYR, the offense is to blame. It frustrates me as well.

All good. :beerme:
Thanks, buddy. These cold ones are on me. :beerme:

[Tony Cloninger]

You can't blame Dusty for everyone not hitting.

When the Reds were shutout in back to back games against the Cardinals at home in 1973...against John Curtis and Lynn McGlothlin.....I sure as heck did not blame Sparky for making them swing the bats badly.

They might have struck out 17 times like Sanchez has done against the Braves if they had taken more pitches...the way they are swinging.

NO way 1 player....Ludwick....losing him.....is going to make this offense this bad. He is one player and just as prone to bad slumps as most of these guys.

[kbrake]

Does he affect everyone or only those who go into slumps. Going into tonight they have the most runs in the NL of teams who don't play at Coors.

You're going to mash at times without question, if you have talent being aggressive but don't you think over the long haul and especially against good pitching being able to grind out at bats would be nice?

[kbrake]

And when the manager hits a .294 career OBP 2nd, that manager shouldn't get the benefit of the doubt.

[Joesh]

Sanchez would have the MLB record if the Tigers were playing the Reds tonight, no doubt about it

[Always Red]

... and yet one of the "smarter ones" (runs created) actually gives credit for runs created when a run doesn't score.

Lots of stats and metrics have flaws. The trick is to keep that in mind when using such statistics.

You're right, that makes no sense either.

[_Sir_Charles_]

I just got home. I see that the reds got 1 hit. So I automatically assume I'm looking at yesterday's box score by mistake. Wow. 1 hit in 2 straight days?

[Red Raindog]

I just got home. I see that the reds got 1 hit. So I automatically assume I'm looking at yesterday's box score by mistake. Wow. 1 hit in 2 straight days?

1st time since 1900 yes that is the year 1900

[edabbs44]

You're going to mash at times without question, if you have talent being aggressive but don't you think over the long haul and especially against good pitching being able to grind out at bats would be nice?

6 Reds are in the top 50 in the NL in pitches per PA.

[Always Red]

6 Reds are in the top 50 in the NL in pitches per PA.

Someone needs to tell Thom that because he was apoplectic about Reds swinging at first pitches. At one point, the Cowboy pointed out that Zimmerman wasn't throwing many balls tonight.

Great pitched game by Zimmerman. Go get'em tomorrow.

[kbrake]

6 Reds are in the top 50 in the NL in pitches per PA.

Ok I stand corrected. Certainly hasn't seemed that way. Who are the 6?

[edabbs44]

Ok I stand corrected. Certainly hasn't seemed that way. Who are the 6?

Votto
Choo
Cozart
BP
Bruce
Frazier

[Tony Cloninger]

And when the manager hits a .294 career OBP 2nd, that manager shouldn't get the benefit of the doubt.

It's one player in one spot. You are getting 1 hit in back to back games......you have more problems than just a .294 OBP hitting 2nd.

[Brutus]

Paul has well over a .800 OPS since joining the Reds, had excellent minor league numbers over a large sample. His lifetime numbers mean nothing to me, they are the result of only 400 PAs in which he didn't do well in his first major league go around. I think highly of him.

In having perspective, it makes sense to realize that some players require more major league experience than others. Writing someone off because of 400 early PAs IMO reflects a lack of perspective.

I'm not writing him off, but I sure as heck think what he's done over 500 PAs is more telling than 100 PAs with this team.

[Brutus]

If this were an isolated thing no one would say a word about Dusty. You have read his quotes plenty. You really don't think he has an impact on the approaches these guys have at the plate? He doesn't see the value in working the count and working pitchers. It is always see ball hit ball with him.

Just last week, people in these very game threads were complaining Reds' hitters were too committed to drawing walks and not getting hits. Now people are complaining they're being too aggressive.

This place is riled with inconsistency.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Dusty let Izturis bat for himself, and he fouled out on the first pitch. Why did Castellini want Dusty back again? He should have stayed out of it and let Walt pick his own manager.

Fair points....but be honest....no amount of lineup tweeking was going to make those guys swing the bats any better. We've got multiple guys slumping...HARD, and we're facing really good pitching. 3 top notch starters in a row now who were on top of their games. It's not an excuse for Dusty or for the performance of our hitters...just a perfect storm in a really negative way.

I don't think anybody here thinks Votto, Bruce, Phillips, etc will go hitless for the remainder of the year. I don't think anybody here thinks that Votto & Bruce will lead the league in strikeouts. We'll get guys healthy, we'll get guys out of their funks, and we'll get back to winning games.

And despite all the negative stuff that happened in tonights game....how about the positives. Homer. :thumbup: If we keep getting pitching like we have, the W's will come in bunches.

(not really directed at you OBM...just happened to be the one I replied to is all)

[_Sir_Charles_]

If this were an isolated thing no one would say a word about Dusty. You have read his quotes plenty. You really don't think he has an impact on the approaches these guys have at the plate? He doesn't see the value in working the count and working pitchers. It is always see ball hit ball with him.

To be fair....all off season and ST he was preaching patience at the plate. It may have been his M.O. in the past, but not recently. Bruce & Phillips seem to have taken it to heart more than most...just not apparently today. I missed today's game and it was probably a blessing in disguise. On the plus side, my daughters now have an Xbox 360 to occupy them while I watch baseball. ;)

[kbrake]

Just last week, people in these very game threads were complaining Reds' hitters were too committed to drawing walks and not getting hits. Now people are complaining they're being too aggressive.

This place is riled with inconsistency.

Of course this place is. Different people have different takes. I don't think I've complained about patience. I can't speak for everyone else.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Anybody have the length of time the game took? I thought for sure I'd be back in time to see some of it tonight. Was it under 2 hours?!?

[Brutus]

Of course this place is. Different people have different takes. I don't think I've complained about patience. I can't speak for everyone else.

The Reds are averaging right around the league average number of pitches seen per plate appearance each of the past three years. Nevermind that the whole "seeing pitches" thing is completely being taken too far by everyone as being patient for patience' sake isn't a good thing. But Dusty isn't having this profound effect on swinging for swinging's sake that you're insinuating, either.

[Red Raindog]

To be fair....all off season and ST he was preaching patience at the plate. It may have been his M.O. in the past, but not recently. Bruce & Phillips seem to have taken it to heart more than most...just not apparently today. I missed today's game and it was probably a blessing in disguise. On the plus side, my daughters now have an Xbox 360 to occupy them while I watch baseball. ;)

watch out -- my grandsons delight in tormenting me with the one at our house

[TSJ55]

So what are we saying here? Too much patience at the plate? Not enough patience? Unfortunately caught hot pitchers on consecutive nights? Several players slumping simultaneously? Hard hit balls right at defenders? Perfect storm of all the above? I only got to halfway listen to the game tonight so I'm truly seeking "answers" here.

Holy smokes fellas. One hit two nights in row? I'm at a loss right now. That's beyond anemic.

[Billy_Bearcat]

Anybody have the length of time the game took? I thought for sure I'd be back in time to see some of it tonight. Was it under 2 hours?!?

Thought I saw it a 2 hours 10 minutes

[westofyou]

2 games of 162

0.012345679012346 of a season

[Ironman92]

Embarrassing

Nice to no Brook Jacoby is held accountable for nothing.


92 pitches

[TSJ55]

2 games of 162

0.012345679012346 of a season

Understood WOY, but still....wow. That's pretty bad. Did they just look lost up there or what? Were at least some significantly hard hit balls right at guys? Dare I use the word "unlucky"?

[1940757690]

Game did seem lightning fast. Was hard to be there watching it. Not a lot of Reds fans in the park; oddly so. Usually a better showing. Neither team hit for s++t save the Harper triple and the one situational single by Werth. We just didn't hit a bit worse.

This has to stop tomorrow. If anything can cure offensive anemia, Dan Haren can do it.

Hey, as shameful as it was to be one-hit on two consecutive days, have to remember that Homer pitched a great game and that, even dropping two and being in fourth place, we're two games over .500 (Nats are only one over) and we're just 1.5 back of first place (Nats are 3.5 back).

Tomorrow's another day. An important one as I'd really like us to win the season series and, to do that, we have to take the next two.

[westofyou]

Understood WOY, but still....wow. That's pretty bad. Did they just look lost up there or what? Were at least some significantly hard hit balls right at guys? Dare I use the word "unlucky"?

Its too small a sample for much... but this team had shown a feast or famine result pattern so far.

[Gizmo]

Just got home from the game. 3rd game I've seen since moving here, so far I think I've seen the Reds score 1 run total in DC. Hopefully they find some bats in this town, would hate to see this trend continue into our matchups in October.

[TSJ55]

Its too small a sample for much... but this team had shown a feast or famine result pattern so far.

Understood. Just don't like a downside that is that is that poor on consecutive nights. Anything can happen on any given night but two in a row makes me fret.

[1940757690]

happened last night

Nope. Happened tonight. Choo drew 1 of 3 BB Gio issued last night to keep the on base streak alive.


Fair points....but be honest....no amount of lineup tweeking was going to make those guys swing the bats any better. We've got multiple guys slumping...HARD, and we're facing really good pitching.
...

I don't think anybody here thinks Votto, Bruce, Phillips, etc will go hitless for the remainder of the year. ... and we'll get back to winning games.


Not sure I agree just on your lineup point. I'm influenced some by the thread under ORG about current lineup options. Don't you think at least putting someone more reliable (BP, Frazier, Meso, whoever) in the 2 spot gives a better chance to score a few each game? I do. Love the rest of your post and of course agree with it.


Just got home from the game. 3rd game I've seen since moving here, so far I think I've seen the Reds score 1 run total in DC. Hopefully they find some bats in this town, would hate to see this trend continue into our matchups in October.

They'll find 'em tomorrow. Dan Haren hasn't shown any ability to limit damage and hopefully our guys are sufficiently disgusted with themselves to come to the park a bit angry and productive. Not sure where you were sitting but did you also think we were under-represented? In the past, I've seen better turnouts here but know you're new to the area.

[texasdave]

Nice to see Homer with another excellent start. They keep getting the pitching the wins will follow. Incidentally, the Reds nearly got 'Vandermeered'. It was close.

[PumpFak3First]

Embarrassing

Nice to no Brook Jacoby is held accountable for nothing.


92 pitches

Nice to know you aren't held accountable for your spelling

[GAC]

So far the Reds are 1-7 away. I don't know if it's a factor or not, but wouldn't the three ballparks they have played in away be considered more pitcher-friendly? Right now, and I realize it's still early, Nationals Park is #1 allowing .650 runs/game. And over the course of it's existence, hasn't data shown that the new Busch Stadium is a pitcher's park? PNC is kinda middle-of-the road I guess.

[Gizmo]

They'll find 'em tomorrow. Dan Haren hasn't shown any ability to limit damage and hopefully our guys are sufficiently disgusted with themselves to come to the park a bit angry and productive. Not sure where you were sitting but did you also think we were under-represented? In the past, I've seen better turnouts here but know you're new to the area.

I was behind the RF pole 2nd level, and there were a handful of Reds fans, but did seem to be less than last season's trip. But then again expectations in DC are certainly higher this year than last April.

[cumberlandreds]

Game did seem lightning fast. Was hard to be there watching it. Not a lot of Reds fans in the park; oddly so. Usually a better showing. Neither team hit for s++t save the Harper triple and the one situational single by Werth. We just didn't hit a bit worse.

This has to stop tomorrow. If anything can cure offensive anemia, Dan Haren can do it.

Hey, as shameful as it was to be one-hit on two consecutive days, have to remember that Homer pitched a great game and that, even dropping two and being in fourth place, we're two games over .500 (Nats are only one over) and we're just 1.5 back of first place (Nats are 3.5 back).

Tomorrow's another day. An important one as I'd really like us to win the season series and, to do that, we have to take the next two.

Just to let RZ know this is a very good fan to see a game with. We just happened by sheer chance to have seats next to each other. He's another quality member of RZ. :thumbup:

Not much of a game by the Reds. Not hardly any hard hit balls. This about as bad as I have the bats in quite some time. I hope to at least see two hits today.

If I can figure out how to post pictures on RZ I got some good ones before the game last night. I stood behind the Reds dugout before the game and got some good pictures of Frazier,Choo,Baker,Bruce and Votto signing autographs before the game. These guys were really good about signing balls and whatever else folks had. Choo signed for a long time. Lots of Koreans there to see him too. Frazier seemed especially good with people. Which is no surprise.

[Gizmo]

Just to let RZ know this is a very good fan to see a game with. We just happened by sheer chance to have seats next to each other. He's another quality member of RZ. :thumbup:

Not much of a game by the Reds. Not hardly any hard hit balls. This about as bad as I have the bats in quite some time. I hope to at least see two hits today.

If I can figure out how to post pictures on RZ I got some good ones before the game last night. I stood behind the Reds dugout before the game and got some good pictures of Frazier,Choo,Baker,Bruce and Votto signing autographs before the game. These guys were really good about signing balls and whatever else folks had. Choo signed for a long time. Lots of Koreans there to see him too. Frazier seemed especially good with people. Which is no surprise.


Any of you going tomorrow? I'll be down there with my 4 year old looking to catch some HRs, even if it's just during BP. We'll be in RCF just above the scoreboard.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Thought I saw it a 2 hours 10 minutes

Wow. That's both impressive and sad.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Not sure I agree just on your lineup point. I'm influenced some by the thread under ORG about current lineup options. Don't you think at least putting someone more reliable (BP, Frazier, Meso, whoever) in the 2 spot gives a better chance to score a few each game? I do. Love the rest of your post and of course agree with it.

I don't disagree that you want the best lineup out there. But no, juggling them around yesterday wasn't going to improve their chances to score if none of them could hit the ball. It would just change how many at bats each guy got to make an out.

At this point, however, it won't surprise me one bit to see Dusty do a major juggling act with the lineup just to see if he can kick-start some guys. People act like he doesn't do this...but he has in the past...several times.