If the Reds win central...

[DWS1125]

If the Reds win the Central they will have to rely on help from other teams beating the Cardinals. They can't beat them on the Road, they can't beat them at Home. Record since 2010 24W 30L. 11-19 on the Road.
Not even counting the first two years under Dusty. It wouldn't be fair. Here's another nugget. The players change, no Pujols, No Carpenter for two years, One year without Wainwright and Tony Larussa is retired. They still have OWNAGE. you can see why people don't want Dusty as manager! You can't tell me this Reds team on paper isn't better than StL. Why does this team grab players out of the scrap pile and continue to beat us? This is not ok in my eyes and never should be excepted. I don't care about winning the Division if your rival sneaks in playoffs and advance further than you every year.

[DWS1125]

With Dusty's best year as a Reds manager last year 97 wins, and 2003 his best year as Cubs manager. Both years he had a losing record against the Cardinals

[Old school 1983]

Look at the cardinals lineup. At the heart if their order is Beltran holiday and Craig. I'd hardly call them scrap heap guys. Follow that by a clutch hitting Molina and freese who both, in RISP situations try to stay within their game and put the ball in play. Also when they lose a guy in pujols, they go and replace him with Beltran, a proven performer, instead of praying to the baseball gods that one of their guys step up. Also in player development, if a player like Colby Rasmus, who has all the potential and talent in the world, doesn't meet the mold of what they want, they ship him out for pieces that will help them win and go with John jay in center who has less potential than rasmus but fits into the cardinals approach and plans better.

Even their staff, carpenter and wainwright are studs period. They've counted on them. So looking at it, they have scrap heap guys but the players they depend in are far from scrap heap.

Fast forward to the reds. Heart of the reds order votto, then it was supposed to be ludwick. Yes I know he had a great year last year, but the reds are depending on a scrap heap guy to be the 4 guy? They've done this for years. And even in the 5 hole instead of getting a consistent performer they pray that this will be the year Bruce becomes consistent and puts it together. And our secondary guys are hackers. Look at Frazier. Little to no plate discipline. Phillips does a great job. I can't knock him. And even looking at prospect development. We have Stubbs. We beat him like a dead horse in the lineup for three years hoping he pans out. By the time we decide to let him go, he's a throw in in a trade. Don't think for a second that we got choo for him. We got choo for DiDi. So may e the reds need to look less at upside and more at what can this player do to help the team win. And build a solid lineup around the core. In the years one if our scrap heap guys bust out and bat 4 2010 and 2012, the team busts out. Why not take a page out of the cards book and build a solid core out if proven performers.

I know the idea of trading for Headley has been floated here. To me it sounds like the kind of move they'd do to win. They wouldn't care if freese took a lesser role. Whereas the reds fans that I've seen comment on it on here are worried about giving up on Frazier, an averagish starter with at most an average glove, or worry about giving up prospects in the omg I know zach Stewart will win the cy young line of thinking. You know what if a trade for Headley meant a real run at the series this year and next idc if the prospect we'd give up wins the MVP or cy young the next 15 years.

[RedlegJake]

I am sorry but I hate hand wringing whiney why aren't we the Cards posts...

[Old school 1983]

I am sorry but I hate hand wringing whiney why aren't we the Cards posts...

It's not whiney. It's a pretty honest evaluation of why their lineup offensively is superior to ours head to head. I could write the complete opposite when it comes to building a stellar pitching staff and bullpen. We have them beat all day everyday and twice on Sundays. Sometimes it's good to take a look at your opponents and see what they do well in comparison to you. As far as the cardinals go it is building a lineup from its core, placing disciplined experienced hitters there, developing experienced disciplined hitters and honestly pulling trades that put their style of players in a lineup rather than going with plus talent. I think there was a serious level of luck with the cards winning it all in 2011, but at the same time it wasn't the same team that was around average during the regular season. They made moves that improved the team and let go of players that were a detriment no matter how much upside they had.

[DavidMemphis]

I understand the 'concerns', but I also understand that there are 162 games in the baseball season. Last year, through May 3, we sat at .500 (12-12), 3.5 games behind the cardinals. This year, through May 3, we sit at 16-14, 2.5 games behind the cardinals, with the bucs and the brew crew in the mix. Last year, we all had houston to beat up on. Last year, we were healthy at this time. THIS year, we have lost our starting LF, our 'starting' C, our ace SP, and went through the month of April with one of the toughest schedules in MLB. It's early, folks, WAYYYY early. These guys WILL hit, and when they do, with our starting pitching and bullpen, I see a great season ahead of us. I'm not against making a move for the right guy in the right situation, but I don't want to give up a valued prospect, or Jay Bruce, for a player that may only be here one year (in the case of Choo, we simply HAD to have a competent leadoff man - in fact I wanted them to pull the trigger on that deal last year). It's a long season, in baseball more than any other sport, things have a way of bearing out the way they should - meaning the better teams rise to the top in the long haul. The cards bullpen will be costly to them in that long haul, and they are not as good as us defensively (save Choo in CF - still say we should switch he and Bruce). We are the best team in the division, and will win the division. It's what we do after that, that will define our season.

[Old school 1983]

I understand the 'concerns', but I also understand that there are 162 games in the baseball season. Last year, through May 3, we sat at .500 (12-12), 3.5 games behind the cardinals. This year, through May 3, we sit at 16-14, 2.5 games behind the cardinals, with the bucs and the brew crew in the mix. Last year, we all had houston to beat up on. Last year, we were healthy at this time. THIS year, we have lost our starting LF, our 'starting' C, our ace SP, and went through the month of April with one of the toughest schedules in MLB. It's early, folks, WAYYYY early. These guys WILL hit, and when they do, with our starting pitching and bullpen, I see a great season ahead of us. I'm not against making a move for the right guy in the right situation, but I don't want to give up a valued prospect, or Jay Bruce, for a player that may only be here one year (in the case of Choo, we simply HAD to have a competent leadoff man - in fact I wanted them to pull the trigger on that deal last year). It's a long season, in baseball more than any other sport, things have a way of bearing out the way they should - meaning the better teams rise to the top in the long haul. The cards bullpen will be costly to them in that long haul, and they are not as good as us defensively (save Choo in CF - still say we should switch he and Bruce). We are the best team in the division, and will win the division. It's what we do after that, that will define our season.

I know it's very early. I'd never trade Bruce for a guy that would only be a rental. But Frazier, yes I would. I was comparing how the reds vs the cards handled a giy who was takented but a detriment. Stubbs v Rasmus. Bruce is a higher caliber than both if those guys. I just woukdnt say all prospects are open to being traded. Thats bad baseball. But if i was offered teo years of headley, a liece i believe completes this team, id alomst consider any prospect aside from hamilton and stephenson. Maybe cingrani delending in the health of the staff. I know it's early and I know this teams hitting will pick up. I'm pretty confident the reds will win the central if not be right there at the end. That's not what has me concerned. I'm concerned that when the longball isn't flying, this team has some serious issues scoring runs against above average pitching. If it was just a product of early in the year April stuff this season I'd be jumping the gun. But it's not. I've seen basically the same core of players have the same issue since 2010.

[DWS1125]

Berkman at the time cardinals signed him was on downside of career, reds could have signed a player like beltran but choosed ludwick, Pujols best player in league lost him and kept on moving forward. world series in 07-11 with tommy john to carpenter and wainwright..almost went last year if they didn't have a epic fail. carpenter missed with nerve damage. Won in 2011 with closer by committee. with players scrap relievers..remember Octivo Dotel??! Really? guess it was the rally squirrel

[DavidMemphis]

No way in the world would I trade Cingrani - superior left handed starting pitchers do not grow on trees, and I believe this guy has all the tools to be that for a long time. Its early, and he WILL take his lumps, but again, these guys dont grow on trees (heck, he was the first starting LH for us since when? a while ago). One point i will agree on, though I don't think it's an issue exclusive to our Reds. Except for some (Votto's of the world), hitters these days simply don't mind striking out as much. You rarely see them choke up with 2 strikes like players customarily did in previous eras. BP is a perfect example of this - he's one of my favorite players, but with 2 strikes, he doesn't choke up at all to shorten his swing and defend the plate to put the ball in play - he still seemingly is swinging for the fences, not seeming to care that the risk of striking out is much higher by taking this approach. Again, this is not exclusive to the Reds, but a league-wide trend in my opinion. These days, save very few, the guys with the most home runs usually are way up there in strike outs as well.

[Old school 1983]

No way in the world would I trade Cingrani - superior left handed starting pitchers do not grow on trees, and I believe this guy has all the tools to be that for a long time. Its early, and he WILL take his lumps, but again, these guys dont grow on trees (heck, he was the first starting LH for us since when? a while ago). One point i will agree on, though I don't think it's an issue exclusive to our Reds. Except for some (Votto's of the world), hitters these days simply don't mind striking out as much. You rarely see them choke up with 2 strikes like players customarily did in previous eras. BP is a perfect example of this - he's one of my favorite players, but with 2 strikes, he doesn't choke up at all to shorten his swing and defend the plate to put the ball in play - he still seemingly is swinging for the fences, not seeming to care that the risk of striking out is much higher by taking this approach. Again, this is not exclusive to the Reds, but a league-wide trend in my opinion. These days, save very few, the guys with the most home runs usually are way up there in strike outs as well.

I definitely don't "want" to trade cingrani. If the perfect deal came along it'd consider. But it'd have to be near perfect. As far as reds pitchers go, I honestly see cueto as kind if the one piece that could bring large returns that I'd consider moving. I think he's maxed out talent wise where as everyone else is continuing to get better. That said a maxed out cueto is a great thing to have. As far as reds trades go, the whole don't be afraid to trade a guy thing wasn't aimed at Bruce. In 2010 the sexy trade topic was cliff lee. At that point the reds would have to experience a minor miracle to win it all. Good call to hold off and save talent. Last year is what burned me. The reds had a legit shot at a title. If I remember correctly I heard they turned down a trade of ondrusek for victorino. Idk why. Ondrusek is a nice piece but he's on the fringe of the roster. Victorino may have been a rental, but he could have been the rental to get the reds over the top. I think to get the level of player the reds should go after to take them over the top this year may be more pricey. Walt shouldn't be afraid to pull the trigger this year. Offseason 2010 and the 2011 season taught us to improve in the offseason. May e 2012 will teach us to improve at the deadline like the cards did in 2011 and the giants did last year.

I completely agree with you on the strikeout issue. I cringed every time BP let loose on a 2 strike pitch. I do the same when I see Bruce and Frazier do it now. But so far this season is see BP adjusting his approach a little so I have to give him credit for that. Honestly I see Bruce trying to do the same and spray the ball more. It's failing right now but I can really see him taking off it it all clicks.

[Old school 1983]

Berkman at the time cardinals signed him was on downside of career, reds could have signed a player like beltran but choosed ludwick, Pujols best player in league lost him and kept on moving forward. world series in 07-11 with tommy john to carpenter and wainwright..almost went last year if they didn't have a epic fail. carpenter missed with nerve damage. Won in 2011 with closer by committee. with players scrap relievers..remember Octivo Dotel??! Really? guess it was the rally squirrel

Like I said the cards could definitely learn a few things about building a staff from the reds. They rode their stud pitchers hard that year and while Dotel was at the end at one point he was nasty with the Astros. It may be luck but he had just enough left in the tank. And I really wanted the reds to sign berkman or Beltran. I think they could have taught the reds you g hitters tons about discipline and approach as well as contribute to the team

[DWS1125]

I think Cardinals have better scouting on the major league level than the Reds mostly, because they have an idea of how they want the team to be constructed...But the Reds have a better scouting in the amateur levels. That has been the difference.

[Beltway]

I keep seeing people talk about how difficult the Reds schedule has been so far this season, but I'm not seeing the difficulty. This team has played more home games than road (16 to 14) and has the 26th highest SOS. Contrast that with the Cardinals who have the 3rd highest SOS and have played more road games than home (12 to 17). I'm not implying anything with these numbers. I'm just kind of tired of people saying the Reds have had a difficult schedule. According to the numbers, they haven't.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/rpi/_/sort/sos

[Old school 1983]

I think Cardinals have better scouting on the major league level than the Reds mostly, because they have an idea of how they want the team to be constructed...But the Reds have a better scouting in the amateur levels. That has been the difference.

I can definitely see that in the amount if major league players the reds have pumped out lately. I don't want to see the focus change but perhaps the reds need to start looking into major league scouting and team construction because I believe they are past the phase of young and up and coming and into a phase of bring a legitimate contender year in and year out.

[DavidMemphis]

I keep seeing people talk about how difficult the Reds schedule has been so far this season, but I'm not seeing the difficulty. This team has played more home games than road (16 to 14) and has the 26th highest SOS. Contrast that with the Cardinals who have the 3rd highest SOS and have played more road games than home (12 to 17). I'm not implying anything with these numbers. I'm just kind of tired of people saying the Reds have had a difficult schedule. According to the numbers, they haven't.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/rpi/_/sort/sos

I get what you are saying, but I am going by what is on paper and what should (and probably will) pan out. Not by numbers from a very small sample size of this season. Perfect example is the Angels. They are much better than their record (in my opinion of course). When you look at the teams we have faced (angels, nats, cards, only to name a few), our schedule is much easier down the road than it was in April. To take a sample size of what has happened thus far, I do not believe is an accurate way to dispill how 'good' a team is.

[Beltway]

I get what you are saying, but I am going by what is on paper and what should (and probably will) pan out. Not by numbers from a very small sample size of this season. Perfect example is the Angels. They are much better than their record (in my opinion of course). When you look at the teams we have faced (angels, nats, cards, only to name a few), our schedule is much easier down the road than it was in April. To take a sample size of what has happened thus far, I do not believe is an accurate way to dispill how 'good' a team is.
So you're saying we should judge teams by how talented they "feel" and not by their actual performance?

[1940757690]

Putting it nicely, I'm decidedly NOT a Cards fan. But you have to recognize they're the 2nd most successful team in baseball history counting world series titles. That has to do with legacy and ownership as much as anything.

That said, past performance in no way guarantees future results. If the 2013 postseason works out with similar teams advancing/winning divisions, no way will the Nationals (who had the Cards by the jugular last year before collapsing) let the Cards beat them again. And, aside from that, I'm feeling very confident that if we do what we should do (repeat as division champs), we'll beat the Cards this time around. Have faith. We are a really good team all things considered. And no really good team wins all the time during a 162 game year.

[DavidMemphis]

So you're saying we should judge teams by how talented they "feel" and not by their actual performance?

No, not at all. What I'm saying is that 30 or so games is not enough of a sample size to judge how good or bad a team is in most cases. Obviously, teams like the astros, cubs, etc have their issues, but in the long haul - the cream rises to the top. Again, I would be VERY suprised if say, the angels, finished the season the way they've started it. It's a long long season - 30 games in doesn't tell me the whole story of a team being or not being a contender.

[Beltway]

No, not at all. What I'm saying is that 30 or so games is not enough of a sample size to judge how good or bad a team is in most cases. Obviously, teams like the astros, cubs, etc have their issues, but in the long haul - the cream rises to the top. Again, I would be VERY suprised if say, the angels, finished the season the way they've started it. It's a long long season - 30 games in doesn't tell me the whole story of a team being or not being a contender.
Yes, the cream usually does rise to the top, but you're assuming you already know which teams are going to rise to the top. There are no guarantees. Maybe the Angels don't turn it around, maybe the 2012 Nats were a fluke, and so on. Those aren't out of the realm of possibility (see how quickly the Phillies declined). All we know is how these teams have played so far this season. Everything else is speculation.

[DavidMemphis]

Correct! It is ALL speculation. That is why these forums are so cool, to discuss and debate! It is simply my opinion, and I am right! :beerme:

On another note, I know I'm stating the obvious, but, I knew losing Ludwick would hurt, but wow. It's completely changed the entire dynamic of our offense. Having Cozart in the two hole, etc. Granted, having JB strike out every 3rd at bat doesn't help either, but geez, would be nice to see what the numbers would be with him in there. Hopefully we'll get that chance after the break.

[Old school 1983]

Correct! It is ALL speculation. That is why these forums are so cool, to discuss and debate! It is simply my opinion, and I am right! :beerme:

On another note, I know I'm stating the obvious, but, I knew losing Ludwick would hurt, but wow. It's completely changed the entire dynamic of our offense. Having Cozart in the two hole, etc. Granted, having JB strike out every 3rd at bat doesn't help either, but geez, would be nice to see what the numbers would be with him in there. Hopefully we'll get that chance after the break.

I hope. In new here but I've been preaching if the importance of a four hitter for the reds for years. I hate seeing anyone hurt but maybe it'll be a blessing in disguise and Walt can pick up someone to put behind votto for years to come

[CardsFanBob]

I think Cardinals have better scouting on the major league level than the Reds mostly, because they have an idea of how they want the team to be constructed...But the Reds have a better scouting in the amateur levels. That has been the difference.


The Reds have have had a solid production from their minor leagues, but so have the Cardinals... and they currently have the #1 ranked minor league system in baseball.

I mean, position player wise: Craig, Descalso, Carpenter, Kozma, Jay, Adams, and Molina were all drafted by the Cards. Freese was acquired in a trade as a minor leaguer, and didn't come to the bigs until several years later.

Pitchers: Miller, Lynn, Garcia, and Rosenthal were draft picks. Wainwright was acquired as a minor leaguer.

The Cardinals are hardly the franchise they were under Walt Jocketty, where he pieced together great teams with free agents and trades... and maybe one or two home grown guys.



Like I said the cards could definitely learn a few things about building a staff from the reds. They rode their stud pitchers hard that year and while Dotel was at the end at one point he was nasty with the Astros. It may be luck but he had just enough left in the tank. And I really wanted the reds to sign berkman or Beltran. I think they could have taught the reds you g hitters tons about discipline and approach as well as contribute to the team

You guys had an outstanding staff last year. And they look solid this year. But to demean the Cardinals ability to build a staff is silly. They're far and away the best staff in baseball right now... with four of the five being guys that have ascended from their minor leagues.

If there's anything the Cardinals have done well since 2000, it's pitch... thanks to Dave Duncan and now Derek Lilliquest.

[Old school 1983]

The Reds have have had a solid production from their minor leagues, but so have the Cardinals... and they currently have the #1 ranked minor league system in baseball.

I mean, position player wise: Craig, Descalso, Carpenter, Kozma, Jay, Adams, and Molina were all drafted by the Cards. Freese was acquired in a trade as a minor leaguer, and didn't come to the bigs until several years later.

Pitchers: Miller, Lynn, Garcia, and Rosenthal were draft picks. Wainwright was acquired as a minor leaguer.

The Cardinals are hardly the franchise they were under Walt Jocketty, where he pieced together great teams with free agents and trades... and maybe one or two home grown guys.




You guys had an outstanding staff last year. And they look solid this year. But to demean the Cardinals ability to build a staff is silly. They're far and away the best staff in baseball right now... with four of the five being guys that have ascended from their minor leagues.

If there's anything the Cardinals have done well since 2000, it's pitch... thanks to Dave Duncan and now Derek Lilliquest.

I wasn't meaning to demean. The cards have some great young pitching talent but on the whole the reds staff is better and the bullpen as it sits right now is far superior. I'm not knocking the cards. Lynn looks great. Garcia gives the reds fits. Miller is a hot prospect, wainwright is great. It's no knock. I just believe the reds staff is better.

[CardsFanBob]

Fair enough. Your guys were outstanding last year. I think the Birds have a chance to be better in 13. The beauty of baseball: We'll find out by this fall who was right. ;)

[Old school 1983]

Fair enough. Your guys were outstanding last year. I think the Birds have a chance to be better in 13. The beauty of baseball: We'll find out by this fall who was right. ;)

Exactly! I'm no fan of the cards, but I can admit they are not a lucky group of scrap heap players that some reds fan believe you guys to be. You have a great lineup and great prospects. And as far as using productive players with solid track records in the middle of your lineup, it is something the reds could definitely take note of and learn from.

[CardsFanBob]

I think if you guys get a legit clean-up hitter, you'll be EXTREMELY dangerous. Just need a bit more pop. And to be honest, I didn't think Ludwick was the answer.

Don't get me wrong... I love Ludwick. He still has TONS of fans in St. Louis. But the dude is just too damn streaky. And he doesn't strike fear into anybody.

I'm sure Walt has something up his sleeve... at least by trade deadline time.

[CardsFanBob]

I would also add that the Reds just need to learn how to win on the big stage. They remind me a BUNCH of the Cardinals teams in early 2000's. Not necessarily in their make-up, per sea. But I do believe that it takes some time to learn how to win and close out series in the postseason. I"m sure, while heart breaking, the last two years have helped. But once they finally win that first one, again, I think it changes and matures that team. Just gotta get back in that post season dance, though.

[Old school 1983]

I think if you guys get a legit clean-up hitter, you'll be EXTREMELY dangerous. Just need a bit more pop. And to be honest, I didn't think Ludwick was the answer.

Don't get me wrong... I love Ludwick. He still has TONS of fans in St. Louis. But the dude is just too damn streaky. And he doesn't strike fear into anybody.

I'm sure Walt has something up his sleeve... at least by trade deadline time.

Walt has here lately. I never saw ludwick as the answer. People really want Stanton, but I think he'd cost too much. My man would be Headley.

[Old school 1983]

I would also add that the Reds just need to learn how to win on the big stage. They remind me a BUNCH of the Cardinals teams in early 2000's. Not necessarily in their make-up, per sea. But I do believe that it takes some time to learn how to win and close out series in the postseason. I"m sure, while heart breaking, the last two years have helped. But once they finally win that first one, again, I think it changes and matures that team. Just gotta get back in that post season dance, though.

I totally agree with you. On anther thread I think I compared it to the Bulls in the late 80s having to win against the pistons to learn how before they achieved true greatness.

[DWS1125]

Reds Staff minus Leake replacing him with Cingrani...is a better staff than the cardinals in my opinion. The problem with the reds lineup is lack of speed and 4th hitter. Cozart is really scuffling also...I don't see where you can put him to excel in the lineup but in front of Votto and he's still struggling!! I think Cardinals lineup is better at what they do! Contact!!!

[SpiritofStLouis]

Just a couple thoughts...

Please disist from the schedule argument. The Reds played 16 of their first 23 at home, which included the 2 worst teams in the NL. The Cardinals opened with 16 of their first 22 on the road, including the defending world champs.

Drop the injury argument, the Cardinals lost their ace, their starting SS and their closer, who led the league in saves in 2012.

Finally, lose the scrap heap argument. The Redbirds have more home grown talent on their roster than just about any team in MLB. They have replaced players with players from their minor league system.

I hate to be the one to break this, but the Cardinal farm system is LOADED. Not only have I never seen such wealth in the St.Louis system, but I'm hard pressed to have seen it anywhere, and I have been a student of the game for almost 50 years.

Having said that, I picked the Reds to win the division and the Redbirds to miss the playoffs this year. I figured that next year St.Louis would begin to flourish, what with 40 large coming off the books and the first wave of youngsters being promoted.

Circumstances have dictated that the timetable be accelerated. They way I see it, by 2015 this team is going to be everyone's nightmare.

[DWS1125]

I think reds farm system under valued..hard to believe 85 players better than cingrani with his numbers in minors and majors

[Old school 1983]

Just a couple thoughts...

Please disist from the schedule argument. The Reds played 16 of their first 23 at home, which included the 2 worst teams in the NL. The Cardinals opened with 16 of their first 22 on the road, including the defending world champs.

Drop the injury argument, the Cardinals lost their ace, their starting SS and their closer, who led the league in saves in 2012.

Finally, lose the scrap heap argument. The Redbirds have more home grown talent on their roster than just about any team in MLB. They have replaced players with players from their minor league system.

I hate to be the one to break this, but the Cardinal farm system is LOADED. Not only have I never seen such wealth in the St.Louis system, but I'm hard pressed to have seen it anywhere, and I have been a student of the game for almost 50 years.

Having said that, I picked the Reds to win the division and the Redbirds to miss the playoffs this year. I figured that next year St.Louis would begin to flourish, what with 40 large coming off the books and the first wave of youngsters being promoted.

Circumstances have dictated that the timetable be accelerated. They way I see it, by 2015 this team is going to be everyone's nightmare.

The schedule argument is lame IMO. It's not like a 16 game football season where it can do you in. By the end if the year everyone plays everyone enough in a division that it evens out, so in baseball I don't even worry about it at all.

I'd call the injuries situation a push. Both teams have them. They both have big issues bc of them.

The scrap heap thing annoys me to no end. The cards rely on proven talent at the heart of their order and top of rotation. The guys they get off the scrap heap have talent, for whatever reason the cards find a way to get it out of them. The reds use scrap heap guys quite a bit. Ludwick was one. So was BP. Volquez was a failed prospect until he got to Cincinnati.

By 2015 if the reds make the right moves it could be scary too. I expect the reds to still be the best in the division by they as well.

So my point being. I hate the cards. I really do but come on guys respect them. They have talent and a nice farm system. Lets just quit using luck and scrap heap and anything else as an excuse and just beat the cards. If the reds win, it doesn't matter what the cards do.

[DWS1125]

What we mean about scrap heap..is players that played for three different teams the last five years how many do the reds have?

[Old school 1983]

What we mean about scrap heap..is players that played for three different teams the last five years how many do the reds have?

Sometimes it's not who you have but how well thy play as a group in the environment you have them in. There is more to team production than just stats. Bottom line. If the reds win it doesn't matter for squat what the cards do. And as reds fans, constantly worrying and stuff about the cards makes us look like we have an inferiority complex. Lets just focus on the reds and making them better. If we can draw ideas from the cards success or any other teams success by all means we should, but complaining about scrap heap and luck makes us look jealous, weak, and looking for an excuse. Once again. Bottom line: if the reds win, what the cards do does not matter!!

[SpiritofStLouis]

The schedule argument is lame IMO. It's not like a 16 game football season where it can do you in. By the end if the year everyone plays everyone enough in a division that it evens out, so in baseball I don't even worry about it at all.

I'd call the injuries situation a push. Both teams have them. They both have big issues bc of them.

The scrap heap thing annoys me to no end. The cards rely on proven talent at the heart of their order and top of rotation. The guys they get off the scrap heap have talent, for whatever reason the cards find a way to get it out of them. The reds use scrap heap guys quite a bit. Ludwick was one. So was BP. Volquez was a failed prospect until he got to Cincinnati.

By 2015 if the reds make the right moves it could be scary too. I expect the reds to still be the best in the division by they as well.

So my point being. I hate the cards. I really do but come on guys respect them. They have talent and a nice farm system. Lets just quit using luck and scrap heap and anything else as an excuse and just beat the cards. If the reds win, it doesn't matter what the cards do.

Your points are well taken and well stated. My only point of contention is the use of the word " hate ".

Being a New Yorker and growing up in the northeast, I have never embraced the " hatred " that Cardinal fans have for the Cubs (especially since they suck every year).

It's a game, there's no reason to hate another franchise. Respect them, despise them, but there's no reason for hate.

Too much of that going around on this planet. Just sayin'.

[SpiritofStLouis]

Sometimes it's not who you have but how well thy play as a group in the environment you have them in. There is more to team production than just stats. Bottom line. If the reds win it doesn't matter for squat what the cards do. And as reds fans, constantly worrying and stuff about the cards makes us look like we have an inferiority complex. Lets just focus on the reds and making them better. If we can draw ideas from the cards success or any other teams success by all means we should, but complaining about scrap heap and luck makes us look jealous, weak, and looking for an excuse. Once again. Bottom line: if the reds win, what the cards do does not matter!!

Bingo.

[Old school 1983]

Your points are well taken and well stated. My only point of contention is the use of the word " hate ".

Being a New Yorker and growing up in the northeast, I have never embraced the " hatred " that Cardinal fans have for the Cubs (especially since they suck every year).

It's a game, there's no reason to hate another franchise. Respect them, despise them, but there's no reason for hate.

Too much of that going around on this planet. Just sayin'.

Point taken. Strongly despise works. Lol

[RedlegJake]

The strong feelings are a reflection of a growing rivalry. That is a good thing when fans don't get idiotic and make it personal against the fans of the other team. Remxembering this is a Reds board first and being a bit diplomatic (Not apologetic) can lead to some good discussion but you'll get some guff just being a Cards fan SoSL. I like insight into the "enemy" camp and roster thru a fans eyes but there is also a time its better not to post retorts. When it gets incendiary. Personally I have great respect for the Cards and their history. Still despise em though but as a long transplanted Missourian from Cincy I've learned to live among Cards rooters. Somehow they are amazingly human like me. Haven't met any with three eyes or horns so far...

[Vottomatic]

Just a couple thoughts...

Please disist from the schedule argument. The Reds played 16 of their first 23 at home, which included the 2 worst teams in the NL. The Cardinals opened with 16 of their first 22 on the road, including the defending world champs.

Drop the injury argument, the Cardinals lost their ace, their starting SS and their closer, who led the league in saves in 2012.

Finally, lose the scrap heap argument. The Redbirds have more home grown talent on their roster than just about any team in MLB. They have replaced players with players from their minor league system.

I hate to be the one to break this, but the Cardinal farm system is LOADED. Not only have I never seen such wealth in the St.Louis system, but I'm hard pressed to have seen it anywhere, and I have been a student of the game for almost 50 years.

Having said that, I picked the Reds to win the division and the Redbirds to miss the playoffs this year. I figured that next year St.Louis would begin to flourish, what with 40 large coming off the books and the first wave of youngsters being promoted.

Circumstances have dictated that the timetable be accelerated. They way I see it, by 2015 this team is going to be everyone's nightmare.

Ah yes..........the "everyone in our loaded farm system is a future superstar" assumption.

Good luck with that one.

[CardsFanBob]

Well. They do have a loaded system,per everyone who follows minor leagues ball. And you should look at how Wacca, Tavares, and Wong are performing. All three will be starters next year and are performing exceptionally well in AAA.

[Goose1701]

Loaded farm systems don't guarantee anything, but unfortunately the Cards might be the best team in the game when it comes to developing players, not just blue chippers, but all prospects in general.

[Old school 1983]

Loaded farm systems don't guarantee anything, but unfortunately the Cards might be the best team in the game when it comes to developing players, not just blue chippers, but all prospects in general.

I'm going to have to agree with you on this one. Any prospect they bring up seems ready to contribute at the big league level.

[Tony Cloninger]

I get what you are saying, but I am going by what is on paper and what should (and probably will) pan out. Not by numbers from a very small sample size of this season. Perfect example is the Angels. They are much better than their record (in my opinion of course). When you look at the teams we have faced (angels, nats, cards, only to name a few), our schedule is much easier down the road than it was in April. To take a sample size of what has happened thus far, I do not believe is an accurate way to dispill how 'good' a team is.

The Angels pitching is very bad. Terrible bullpen last year. Not much of an improvement this year. Once Weaver went down that staff went from average to below average very quickly.

Offense was supposed to carry them all the way but they even lack speed to help them....like they used to have in Figgins.... the good Figgins I mean.

[Old school 1983]

The Angels pitching is very bad. Terrible bullpen last year. Not much of an improvement this year. Once Weaver went down that staff went from average to below average very quickly.

Offense was supposed to carry them all the way but they even lack speed to help them....like they used to have in Figgins.... the good Figgins I mean.

I never expected the angels to do much for the very reason you just said. When weaver got hurt it just compounded the issue.

[Tony Cloninger]

I can definitely see that in the amount if major league players the reds have pumped out lately. I don't want to see the focus change but perhaps the reds need to start looking into major league scouting and team construction because I believe they are past the phase of young and up and coming and into a phase of bring a legitimate contender year in and year out.

I like this analysis.... and wonder when there is going to be some accountability for the inability for the coaches up in the majors to get more out of some of these hitters.
Every trade that has been made lately has helped the club but you also see how it seems they are trading all the best prospects, while the ones that they keep are not progressing at all.

[Old school 1983]

I like this analysis.... and wonder when there is going to be some accountability for the inability for the coaches up in the majors to get more out of some of these hitters.
Every trade that has been made lately has helped the club but you also see how it seems they are trading all the best prospects, while the ones that they keep are not progressing at all.

That seems to be the case. The only prospect I see showing any semblance of plate discipline is Mez. I'd love to see Bruce improve and reach the potential we had set for him, but honestly Bruce as is isn't necessarily a bad thing. Same with cozart in think hell hit better but his D is stellar. I think we are learning Frazier, while he has great pop and works hard, may be more of a platoon type player. Getting these kind of guys out of your system isnt abad thing but at the same time you want developed disciplined guys at the heart of your order and staff. I have no knock on our pitching development, but as far as our hitting I think we have been lax and been ok with putting some sort of stop gap after votto in hopes one of our guys step up. I think we need to shift from that and find an established major league player of quality to hit behind votto. As far as the coaching staff I think the leash on dusty and co needs to be extremely shortened. On a daily basis I see him make poor personnel decisions, questionable player development decisions, run out suspect lineups, leave starters in too long and misuse the bullpen. I have friends that are cubs cards and giants fans. All teams that have dusty experience or are our rivals and they all tell me that the reds biggest issue is dusty. This points to me as a sign that it's just not us as reds fans being whiny or knit picky about it. So pretty much I think we still need to keep our nose to the grindstone as far as development is concerned but as far as the MLB level goes the reds need to put players that have a track record of success at the heart of their order and start to question our management. I know its early still but at a certain point we have to pause and see this team is not playing up to its talent level and potential even when considering the injuries

[Beltway]

That seems to be the case. The only prospect I see showing any semblance of plate discipline is Mez. I'd love to see Bruce improve and reach the potential we had set for him, but honestly Bruce as is isn't necessarily a bad thing. Same with cozart in think hell hit better but his D is stellar. I think we are learning Frazier, while he has great pop and works hard, may be more of a platoon type player. Getting these kind of guys out of your system isnt abad thing but at the same time you want developed disciplined guys at the heart of your order and staff. I have no knock on our pitching development, but as far as our hitting I think we have been lax and been ok with putting some sort of stop gap after votto in hopes one of our guys step up. I think we need to shift from that and find an established major league player of quality to hit behind votto. As far as the coaching staff I think the leash on dusty and co needs to be extremely shortened. On a daily basis I see him make poor personnel decisions, questionable player development decisions, run out suspect lineups, leave starters in too long and misuse the bullpen. I have friends that are cubs cards and giants fans. All teams that have dusty experience or are our rivals and they all tell me that the reds biggest issue is dusty. This points to me as a sign that it's just not us as reds fans being whiny or knit picky about it. So pretty much I think we still need to keep our nose to the grindstone as far as development is concerned but as far as the MLB level goes the reds need to put players that have a track record of success at the heart of their order and start to question our management. I know its early still but at a certain point we have to pause and see this team is not playing up to its talent level and potential even when considering the injuries
Imagine this team with Joe Maddon as manager. /drool

[Old school 1983]

Imagine this team with Joe Maddon as manager. /drool

It'd ok to dream but I don't think that happens. Dusty has player personality management skills. I wish there was more in game talent. Lets give him the benefit if the doubt for now because of the injuries but if the underperforming continues I think it would be a good idea to start looking elsewhere.