Cardinals are luckiest team in baseball.

[reds700]

They win games in every possible way. Just tonight a .167 hitter hits a two run bomb in the 7th. Brewers tie game. Then single, plus error, plus steal put a man on 3rd with no outs in 9th.

[Old school 1983]

The cards do get lucky but at the same time you have to admit they do have talent. I can't stand the cardinals but it drives me nuts when other reds fans sit and say its all luck or they have no good players and are a bunch of scrap heap guys. Not true. Sure they get lucky hits but luck happens when you make contact and don't strike out in clutch situations.

[Old school 1983]

I just wish the reds fans would concern theirselves with supoeting the team and the reds focus on making the team better. Sure there are things the reds can learn from the cardinals organization as far as building a solid heart of the lineup but other than that the reds have it all over the cards so let's go with our team and play winning baseball. Good baseball will beat lucky baseball most of the time.

[DavidMemphis]

I get it, BELIEVE me, I get it. I live in Memphis, which is very much card country. It can be miserable. However, though I enjoy discussing them when we play them, and as a rival, I don't like that there is SO MUCH discussion about them here on a daily basis. If I were a cardinal fan, I would laugh and be flattered. And that makes me nauseous to even think about. WE, the Cincinnati Reds, are the better team, and that WILL show by the end of the season. No doubt in my mind.

"They give you a round bat, and throw you a round ball. And they tell you to hit it square."

[Old school 1983]

I get it, BELIEVE me, I get it. I live in Memphis, which is very much card country. It can be miserable. However, though I enjoy discussing them when we play them, and as a rival, I don't like that there is SO MUCH discussion about them here on a daily basis. If I were a cardinal fan, I would laugh and be flattered. And that makes me nauseous to even think about. WE, the Cincinnati Reds, are the better team, and that WILL show by the end of the season. No doubt in my mind.

"They give you a round bat, and throw you a round ball. And they tell you to hit it square."

Exactly! Lets focus on the reds unless there is something the cards are doing effects the reds or it is something the reds can learn from.

[reds700]

The cards do affect the reds. We need them to lose games. My point is that they will eventually run out of luck. They are not gonna keep having .167 hitters save the day.

[Old school 1983]

The cards do affect the reds. We need them to lose games. My point is that they will eventually run out of luck. They are not gonna keep having .167 hitters save the day.

And we aren't going to constantly have Carlos marmol save the reds with luck from poor pitching. We did get 4 runs in a one hit inning. The cards winning only effects the reds as much as the reds let it. If the reds win too it doesn't matter. If the reds focus on playing good ball and winning the cards won't be an issue.

[DavidMemphis]

We don't 'need' them to lose games. WE need to win games. Everything else will take care of itself. I'm not going into the day thinking, 'gee, i hope the cards lose b/c that will help the Reds'. Of course i hope they lose, b/c they're in our division and I cant stand 'em. But my main focus is on US winning, and NOT what they're doing. We all want em to lose, so let's beat 'em when it counts and stop giving them too much credit by talking about them all day and night on OUR board. That's all i'm saying.

[Old school 1983]

I compare the reds cardinals rivalry to the bulls and pistons in the NBA in the late 80s. The bulls had the younger possibly more talented team with the best player, but the pistons had the veteran experience and toughness and the bulls couldnt break through for a few years. Once they did they busted out strong and the struggle with the pistons only made them stronger and taught them how to win and turned them into one of the greatest dynasties in NBA history. Right now I can see the reds as the bulls. Poised to break loose and dominate and the cards as the pistons. Lets hope votto and the reds bust out like Jordan and the bulls.

[reds700]

And we aren't going to constantly have Carlos marmol save the reds with luck from poor pitching. We did get 4 runs in a one hit inning. The cards winning only effects the reds as much as the reds let it. If the reds win too it doesn't matter. If the reds focus on playing good ball and winning the cards won't be an issue.

That's not luck. The Cubs have done that all year. Lead league in blown saves. The Cardinals will get the same benefit when they play them.

[Salukifan2]

They win games in every possible way. Just tonight a .167 hitter hits a two run bomb in the 7th. Brewers tie game. Then single, plus error, plus steal put a man on 3rd with no outs in 9th.

That player ops over .770 last year. So I'm not sure its luck or even surprising that he had a good day and drove in some runs.

Also when the reds play the brewers they too will w
Get the benefit of a bad Milwaukee d and pitching staff

[reds700]

And we aren't going to constantly have Carlos marmol save the reds with luck from poor pitching. We did get 4 runs in a one hit inning. The cards winning only effects the reds as much as the reds let it. If the reds win too it doesn't matter. If the reds focus on playing good ball and winning the cards won't be an issue.

Cards just got 6 runs on 3 hits in one inning, only one extra base hit. They have already made up for our "luck" in one day.

[Old school 1983]

I really cant stand the cards but can we just admit they are a good team and just worry about the reds winning.

[Tony Cloninger]

The Yankees getting the production they are from Wells, Hafner and Overbay. I am more annoyed and irritated with that. The Cardinals have good players.....and very good young players coming up, it seems all the time...and this is without Taveras either.

[757690]

Reminds me of the quote about Bob Gibson. "Gibson is the luckiest pitcher in the game. He only pitches on the days the other team doesn't score any runs."

[TDogg]

Reminds me of the quote about Bob Gibson. "Gibson is the luckiest pitcher in the game. He only pitches on the days the other team doesn't score any runs."

Thanks for the Gibby quote. If any of you Reds want to blame a person for making me a Cardinals fan, blame Bob Gibson. I watched him for the first time in 1967...and I have been a Cardinals fan ever since! Didn't make my mom very happy (born and raised in Cincy) but hey, who can argue with greatness?

[SolRosenberg]

The Cards have an American league lineup, dominant rotation and suspect pen. They just brought up phenom pitching prospect Carlos Martinez and added him to the pen like they did with Shelby Miller last year. Carlos is a beast. Future top of the rotation guy.

[DavidMemphis]

Ahh yes, Bob Gibson. All time great pitcher, and All Time 1st class jerk. Not an attack on anyone at all, I just had the 'pleasure' of meeting him at an autograph session (for which he was paid, i might add). My friend had his son with him, and simply asked to him sign, and write, 'To Dylan'. With the little boy right there, Gibson curtly said, "i'm NOT doin that", signed it, and basically tossed it back at my friend and his son. A complete jerk. Of course, I've heard some of the same stuff with many athletes, including some of our favorite Reds.

[Old school 1983]

Reminds me of the quote about Bob Gibson. "Gibson is the luckiest pitcher in the game. He only pitches on the days the other team doesn't score any runs."

They ought to lower the mound or something because he gets so lucky. :p

[foxfire123]

Ahh yes, Bob Gibson. All time great pitcher, and All Time 1st class jerk. Not an attack on anyone at all, I just had the 'pleasure' of meeting him at an autograph session (for which he was paid, i might add). My friend had his son with him, and simply asked to him sign, and write, 'To Dylan'. With the little boy right there, Gibson curtly said, "i'm NOT doin that", signed it, and basically tossed it back at my friend and his son. A complete jerk. Of course, I've heard some of the same stuff with many athletes, including some of our favorite Reds.

Drat, wrong post to quote. Sorry!

[foxfire123]

Thanks for the Gibby quote. If any of you Reds want to blame a person for making me a Cardinals fan, blame Bob Gibson. I watched him for the first time in 1967...and I have been a Cardinals fan ever since! Didn't make my mom very happy (born and raised in Cincy) but hey, who can argue with greatness?

You know, you CAN be a fan of a player without jumping ship to their entire team....

Just saying...

[SpiritofStLouis]

I don't know if I would call it luck. Fortuitous, yes.

Right now the Redbirds are playing at a high level, primarily due to some lights out starting pitching. Their bullpen has blown at least 4 games, and their bats have been so-so.

The starting pitching cannot sustain a 2.00 ERA for a season, nor can their average with RISP. By the same token, the bats are starting to heat up and the bullpen will improve.

FWIW, the Cardinals had the same record as today exactly 1 year ago and basically played .500 ball for the rest of the season.

It's a long season and it will go down to the wire.

[MikeThierry]

I don't know if I would call it luck. Fortuitous, yes.

Right now the Redbirds are playing at a high level, primarily due to some lights out starting pitching. Their bullpen has blown at least 4 games, and their bats have been so-so.

The starting pitching cannot sustain a 2.00 ERA for a season, nor can their average with RISP. By the same token, the bats are starting to heat up and the bullpen will improve.

FWIW, the Cardinals had the same record as today exactly 1 year ago and basically played .500 ball for the rest of the season.

It's a long season and it will go down to the wire.

I think the biggest difference from last year though is that they seemed to have started to fix the bullpen way earlier than they did last year. Last year, it was around Julyish that they finally got great production from their pen. They have made early moves such as bringing up Martinez, switching closer roles, to where I think they will be a bit more consistent.

[Goose1701]

If you're going to have problems, the bullpen is generally the easiest to fix.

[Old school 1983]

If you're going to have problems, the bullpen is generally the easiest to fix.

For the most part I agree.

[reds700]

I don't know what I would think right now if I was a cards fan. They have clearly looked like the best team in the division and really haven't gone through a rough stretch, yet they are still only 2.5 games up in the division.

The reds have been pretty average so far, while playing a tough schedule. The Cards schedule hasn't been easy but has not been as tough as the Reds schedule so far. When you combine the inevitable Cards rough stretch with a Reds hot stretch, you would think that lead will evaporate quickly. Add in the Reds only having one series left in St. Louis, with the Cards having to travel to Cincy three times, and you have to like where the Reds are right now.

Based solely on the eye test the Cards look like the best team in the division, but when you analyze the numbers you would almost rather be in the Reds position.

[Old school 1983]

I don't know what I would think right now if I was a cards fan. They have clearly looked like the best team in the division and really haven't gone through a rough stretch, yet they are still only 2.5 games up in the division.

The reds have been pretty average so far, while playing a tough schedule. The Cards schedule hasn't been easy but has not been as tough as the Reds schedule so far. When you combine the inevitable Cards rough stretch with a Reds hot stretch, you would think that lead will evaporate quickly. Add in the Reds only having one series left in St. Louis, with the Cards having to travel to Cincy three times, and you have to like where the Reds are right now.

Based solely on the eye test the Cards look like the best team in the division, but when you analyze the numbers you would almost rather be in the Reds position.

I'd much rather be the reds. The reds are not that far back despite a lot if injuries to some key guys, and get the cards way more at GABP the rest if the way. Plus I think the reds starting pitching success is much more likely to be maintained as a starting core than the cards, and our pen is way better. Believe me if rather see the reds sitting on top right now, but I totally agree that they aren't in a bad spot at all.

[Salukifan2]

I don't know what I would think right now if I was a cards fan. They have clearly looked like the best team in the division and really haven't gone through a rough stretch, yet they are still only 2.5 games up in the division.

The reds have been pretty average so far, while playing a tough schedule. The Cards schedule hasn't been easy but has not been as tough as the Reds schedule so far. When you combine the inevitable Cards rough stretch with a Reds hot stretch, you would think that lead will evaporate quickly. Add in the Reds only having one series left in St. Louis, with the Cards having to travel to Cincy three times, and you have to like where the Reds are right now.

That's actually not true. Go look at ESPN's mlb strength of schedules and you'll see that cincys road thus far has been one if the easiest in the league while stl has had the 3rd hardest. A lot of the teams cincy has played are supposed to he good (nats and angels) but haven't been and the majority of concys games have been at home. The only tough series cincy has played really are the two in stl.

Meanwhile after 31 games the cards have only played 12 at home. Unlike the reds they haven't gotten to play teams as bad as LAA, Miami, or Chicago twice.

Over a season sos and RPI mean nothing to me in baseball. But for a month or so I think its fine. On paper the reds schedule looked tough. In reality its been a pretty light scheduls

[Beltway]

I don't know what I would think right now if I was a cards fan. They have clearly looked like the best team in the division and really haven't gone through a rough stretch, yet they are still only 2.5 games up in the division.

The reds have been pretty average so far, while playing a tough schedule. The Cards schedule hasn't been easy but has not been as tough as the Reds schedule so far. When you combine the inevitable Cards rough stretch with a Reds hot stretch, you would think that lead will evaporate quickly. Add in the Reds only having one series left in St. Louis, with the Cards having to travel to Cincy three times, and you have to like where the Reds are right now.

Based solely on the eye test the Cards look like the best team in the division, but when you analyze the numbers you would almost rather be in the Reds position.

A lot of people have a perception of the schedule that does not line up with reality.


I keep seeing people talk about how difficult the Reds schedule has been so far this season, but I'm not seeing the difficulty. This team has played more home games than road (16 to 14) and has the 26th highest SOS. Contrast that with the Cardinals who have the 3rd highest SOS and have played more road games than home (12 to 17). I'm not implying anything with these numbers. I'm just kind of tired of people saying the Reds have had a difficult schedule. According to the numbers, they haven't.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/rpi/_/sort/sos
The Cardinals have since played 2 more road games against a stronger team than the Reds faced (unless you think the Cubs are better than the Brewers).

The Cardinals lost 8 of 10 games after starting 20-11 last season. I guess we'll soon see if they're able to keep up this pace or if it is an aberration like last season.

[Old school 1983]

In baseball tough strength of schedule is a hard thing to predict. It's more of a factor of when you play a team sometimes than who the team is. Or honestly it could come down to what part of the rotation you are in compared to the other team. A lot if factors play into it.

[Salukifan2]

In baseball tough strength of schedule is a hard thing to predict. It's more of a factor of when you play a team sometimes than who the team is. Or honestly it could come down to what part of the rotation you are in compared to the other team. A lot if factors play into it.

Well then let's just use a factor that almost always works in a teams. Home vs. Away. Even here the reds played many more home games than the cards.

[reds700]

That's actually not true. Go look at ESPN's mlb strength of schedules and you'll see that cincys road thus far has been one if the easiest in the league while stl has had the 3rd hardest. A lot of the teams cincy has played are supposed to he good (nats and angels) but haven't been and the majority of concys games have been at home. The only tough series cincy has played really are the two in stl.

Meanwhile after 31 games the cards have only played 12 at home. Unlike the reds they haven't gotten to play teams as bad as LAA, Miami, or Chicago twice.

Over a season sos and RPI mean nothing to me in baseball. But for a month or so I think its fine. On paper the reds schedule looked tough. In reality its been a pretty light scheduls

I feel good having the Angels and Nationals done with. While the Brewers might have a better record than those teams I would much rather face the Brewers than either one of them.

[MillerTime58]

They are a good team, but we are a better team. Barring injury, it will show by the end of the year.

[Beltway]

I feel good having the Angels and Nationals done with. While the Brewers might have a better record than those teams I would much rather face the Brewers than either one of them.
I get the impression that many people think the Reds have faced a tough schedule simply because they've faced the Nationals 7 times (won 3). Let's be honest about the Angels, they suck. Their pitching is atrocious and their offense isn't good enough to make up for it. Saying the Reds schedule is difficult because they've faced the Angels (3 games) is silly.

Meanwhile, the Reds have had 13 games against "bad" teams (Marlins, Cubs, Phillies). By comparison, the Cardinals have had 4 (the Phillies). The Cardinals have played more games against the Pirates and have also played the Giants (NL Champions) and Diamondbacks.

When I look at the aggregate of those schedules, I just don't see the Reds schedule as difficult. Maybe it looked difficult on paper before the season started, but not after.

[Old school 1983]

Well then let's just use a factor that almost always works in a teams. Home vs. Away. Even here the reds played many more home games than the cards.

True. At this point I think it's all moot. Looking at the big picture the reds overall, I believe, are better than the cards. The starting rotation in cincy is better. There is no way the cards pitchers sustain the numbers they are putting up. It's realistic to believe the reds will starters will be close to where they are all season. The reds pen is better too. The issues they've had namely in the Pittsburgh series was mostly due to over/under use of certain players, and I think that misuse was due to Marshall's being out. He's back now. As far as the lineup goes, with ludwick out, the cards are better. I have fears about the reds hitting above average pitching, but with the exception of choo and Phillips, the other people in the lineup are underperforming at some level. Even if it is against lesser pitching, the numbers will go up. Also the reds have the cards at home for the majority of the series the rest of the year. I think while the cards are ahead now, in the long run the reds are at an advantage especially if Walt can add the missing pieces at the deadline. I really think they are a legit 4 hole hitter away from being considered one of the greatest reds teams ever.

[reds700]

I get the impression that many people think the Reds have faced a tough schedule simply because they've faced the Nationals 7 times (won 3). Let's be honest about the Angels, they suck. Their pitching is atrocious and their offense isn't good enough to make up for it. Saying the Reds schedule is difficult because they've faced the Angels (3 games) is silly.

Meanwhile, the Reds have had 13 games against "bad" teams (Marlins, Cubs, Phillies). By comparison, the Cardinals have had 4 (the Phillies). The Cardinals have played more games against the Pirates and have also played the Giants (NL Champions) and Diamondbacks.

When I look at the aggregate of those schedules, I just don't see the Reds schedule as difficult. Maybe it looked difficult on paper before the season started, but not after.

The Cubs are a team that could easily have a pretty good record. They have a horrible bullpen that has killed them. The match-up with the Cards/Cubs is an interesting one. I think the Cubs will score with them and it will come down to two very hittable pens.

[Old school 1983]

The Cubs are a team that could easily have a pretty good record. They have a horrible bullpen that has killed them. The match-up with the Cards/Cubs is an interesting one. I think the Cubs will score with them and it will come down to two very hittable pens.

I agree. If the cubs had any semblance if a bullpen they'd be tough.

[SpiritofStLouis]

I think the biggest difference from last year though is that they seemed to have started to fix the bullpen way earlier than they did last year. Last year, it was around Julyish that they finally got great production from their pen. They have made early moves such as bringing up Martinez, switching closer roles, to where I think they will be a bit more consistent.

Agreed. Another season has allowed the young guys to mature a bit and gain some experience. That goes for Matt Carpenter and Matt Adams as well as the arms.

Having Waino at 100% helps (last start notwithstanding)

[Vottomatic]

All I can say about the Cards is they've had two of the worst teams in the past 10 years to win the World Series.

So, I agree they are lucky.

[SpiritofStLouis]

I don't know what I would think right now if I was a cards fan. They have clearly looked like the best team in the division and really haven't gone through a rough stretch, yet they are still only 2.5 games up in the division.

The reds have been pretty average so far, while playing a tough schedule. The Cards schedule hasn't been easy but has not been as tough as the Reds schedule so far. When you combine the inevitable Cards rough stretch with a Reds hot stretch, you would think that lead will evaporate quickly. Add in the Reds only having one series left in St. Louis, with the Cards having to travel to Cincy three times, and you have to like where the Reds are right now.

Based solely on the eye test the Cards look like the best team in the division, but when you analyze the numbers you would almost rather be in the Reds position.

Gotta disagree on the schedule. The Reds played 17 of their first 23 games at home, including 3 vs. the Cubs and 4 vs. the Marlins (all at home), arguably the 2 worst teams in the NL.

The Cardinals played 16 of their first 22 on the road, and played Arizona, San Francisco, Cincinnati and Pittsburgh. The worst teams the Redbirds played were Philly and Milwaukee.

Seems like a big advantage to me.

[SpiritofStLouis]

I'd much rather be the reds. The reds are not that far back despite a lot if injuries to some key guys, and get the cards way more at GABP the rest if the way. Plus I think the reds starting pitching success is much more likely to be maintained as a starting core than the cards, and our pen is way better. Believe me if rather see the reds sitting on top right now, but I totally agree that they aren't in a bad spot at all.

Speaking of Injuries, the Cardinals have lost Chris Carpenter (arguably their ace), Furcal (starting SS) and Motte (their closer who lead the league in saves last year) for the season. Matt Adams has been out 2 weeks.

At least the Reds will get their players back.

[SpiritofStLouis]

All I can say about the Cards is they've had two of the worst teams in the past 10 years to win the World Series.

So, I agree they are lucky.

I'll grant you the regular season record, but a team has to win 11 games in the postseason to win a title. Both times the Redbirds did it, they didn't have home field advantage in a single series.

Okay, they might have gotten a lucky call in Atlanta in 2011, but they also lost a World Series on a bad umpire's call.

You make your own luck.

[Beltway]

The Cubs are a team that could easily have a pretty good record. They have a horrible bullpen that has killed them. The match-up with the Cards/Cubs is an interesting one. I think the Cubs will score with them and it will come down to two very hittable pens.
What? The Cubs are 11-20, and that's including a 3-1 record against Miami and a 2-2 record against San Diego. Against all other teams they're 6-17.

The Cardinals bullpen has blown 5 games where the Cardinals had a late lead. You could make the argument that with a good bullpen the Cardinals could be 25-6. Obviously that's speculation, but my point is there is a wide gulf between the Cubs and Cardinals. The Cubs have only been competitive against fellow bottom dwellers (Padres and Marlins). They've been destroyed by every other team they've played. And you're trying to argue that they're nearly as good as the Cardinals to support the idea that the Reds have played a tough schedule? /facepalm

[reds700]

What? The Cubs are 11-20, and that's including a 3-1 record against Miami and a 2-2 record against San Diego. Against all other teams they're 6-17.

The Cardinals bullpen has blown 5 games where the Cardinals had a late lead. You could make the argument that with a good bullpen the Cardinals could be 25-6. Obviously that's speculation, but my point is there is a wide gulf between the Cubs and Cardinals. The Cubs have only been competitive against fellow bottom dwellers (Padres and Marlins). They've been destroyed by every other team they've played. And you're trying to argue that they're nearly as good as the Cardinals to support the idea that the Reds have played a tough schedule? /facepalm

The Cubs have blown 8 saves this year. Could easily by 19-12. They have not been destroyed by anybody. The Reds won the series but it could have easily gone the other way. Same with the games in Cincy.

[CardsFanBob]

And don't look now, but the Cards bullpen is starting to get things figured out with the call-ups of some young talented kids in Maness and Martinez. Maness does nothing but throw strikes low in the zone and is a ground ball magnet and Martinez throws close to 100 MPH with movement and a nice breaking ball.

And by the end of the month, every Reds' fan's favorite Cardinal may be activated and placed in the bullpen... Chris Carpenter.

There was an article in the STL Post Dispatch this weekend that he's working to try and finish out the season, and he'd be placed in the pen. It would be very interesting to say the least.

[Vottomatic]

And don't look now, but the Cards bullpen is starting to get things figured out with the call-ups of some young talented kids in Maness and Martinez. Maness does nothing but throw strikes low in the zone and is a ground ball magnet and Martinez throws close to 100 MPH with movement and a nice breaking ball.

And by the end of the month, every Reds' fan's favorite Cardinal may be activated and placed in the bullpen... Chris Carpenter.

There was an article in the STL Post Dispatch this weekend that he's working to try and finish out the season, and he'd be placed in the pen. It would be very interesting to say the least.

Meh. I'm not impressed.

Cards are wanna-be's.

[CardsFanBob]

Wanna be whats?

It's not like Maness and Martinez are "just arms." Maness was the organization's pitcher of the year, and Martinez was considered one of the Birds top three or four prospects.

[MillerTime58]

The only reason the Cards are up 2.5 games on us is because they've played us 6 times in StL, in 32 total games. They only get 3 more in the remaining 130.

We're fine.

[CardsFanBob]

I agree. Much too soon to panic. The Reds are in it for the long haul. I think the Brewers are going to fade at some point... and the Pirates will too at some point as well.

It's the Reds and Birds for the division... and whomever doesn't win it, will be in the wild card hunt.

[757690]

That's actually not true. Go look at ESPN's mlb strength of schedules and you'll see that cincys road thus far has been one if the easiest in the league while stl has had the 3rd hardest. A lot of the teams cincy has played are supposed to he good (nats and angels) but haven't been and the majority of concys games have been at home. The only tough series cincy has played really are the two in stl.

Meanwhile after 31 games the cards have only played 12 at home. Unlike the reds they haven't gotten to play teams as bad as LAA, Miami, or Chicago twice.

Over a season sos and RPI mean nothing to me in baseball. But for a month or so I think its fine. On paper the reds schedule looked tough. In reality its been a pretty light scheduls

It's actually the exact opposite.

Over a full season, SOS means a bunch, because everyone has played each other and the schedules even out, so team's records reflect how good they actually are.

Over one month, SOS is less than meaningless, because every teams's record is heavily influenced by their own strength of schedule. For instance, both the Angels and Nats have had a really tough schedule, so their records makes it look like they're not as good as they really are. Same with the Reds. But I'm certain that by the end of the year, the records of all three teams will be some of the best in the majors.

[Beltway]

The Cubs have blown 8 saves this year. Could easily by 19-12. They have not been destroyed by anybody. The Reds won the series but it could have easily gone the other way. Same with the games in Cincy.
Easily? They've been swept 3 times in just over a month. And they still won some of those games with blown saves, so your math is wrong.

vs Cincinnati: 1-5
vs Atlanta: 0-3
vs Milwaukee: 1-4
vs San Francisco: 1-3

That's getting destroyed.

[Jr's Boy]

The Cardinals are deep in their farm system and won't hesitate to call up a young player.

[Salukifan2]

It's actually the exact opposite.

Over a full season, SOS means a bunch, because everyone has played each other and the schedules even out, so team's records reflect how good they actually are.

Over one month, SOS is less than meaningless, because every teams's record is heavily influenced by their own strength of schedule. For instance, both the Angels and Nats have had a really tough schedule, so their records makes it look like they're not as good as they really are. Same with the Reds. But I'm certain that by the end of the year, the records of all three teams will be some of the best in the majors.

I'm a little confused. If at the end of the season the SOS all even out then doesn't that support what I said? Despite what laa and Washington's records are at the end of the season I know the reds played them when they were both scuffling.

I believe the angels are really bad, and I don't think the nats offense is very good after I saw what the cards pitchers did to them in their sweep.

[MikeThierry]

Meh. I'm not impressed.

Cards are wanna-be's.

Not impressed with a kid who can top 100 and has a change up around 90 mph? Chapman has really spoiled your view of what impresses you :D

[reds700]

Easily? They've been swept 3 times in just over a month. And they still won some of those games with blown saves, so your math is wrong.

vs Cincinnati: 1-5
vs Atlanta: 0-3
vs Milwaukee: 1-4
vs San Francisco: 1-3

That's getting destroyed.

Reds are the following:

vs Nationals: 3-4
vs Cards: 2-4
vs Pirates: 0-3
vs Braves: 0-1

With the Cubs you have left out the series' against Pirates and Rangers, both good teams that they have a winning record against. I left out the Angels for the Reds b/c they are currently 11-20, not a good team. I predict they will be by the end of the year, but they are not currently. Cubs have fared well against the bottom feeders just like the Reds. They have also won a few series against some good teams, something the Reds really haven't done. Cubs record is currently skewed due to their difficult schedule. Really didn't notice how difficult it was, but just looked at it.

[ajswartz888]

I don't know what I would think right now if I was a cards fan. They have clearly looked like the best team in the division and really haven't gone through a rough stretch, yet they are still only 2.5 games up in the division.

The reds have been pretty average so far, while playing a tough schedule. The Cards schedule hasn't been easy but has not been as tough as the Reds schedule so far. When you combine the inevitable Cards rough stretch with a Reds hot stretch, you would think that lead will evaporate quickly. Add in the Reds only having one series left in St. Louis, with the Cards having to travel to Cincy three times, and you have to like where the Reds are right now.

Based solely on the eye test the Cards look like the best team in the division, but when you analyze the numbers you would almost rather be in the Reds position.

The Cards schedule hasn't been as tough as the Reds? Are you sure about that. The Cardinals have only played 12 home games and there strength of schedule thus far has been the 3rd highest in MLB. The Reds? 21st in SOS. See link if you don't believe. I'd say the Cards made it through their toughest month of the year quite well. I would say they are loving their position right now.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/rpi/_/sort/sos

[reds700]

Easily? They've been swept 3 times in just over a month. And they still won some of those games with blown saves, so your math is wrong.

vs Cincinnati: 1-5
vs Atlanta: 0-3
vs Milwaukee: 1-4
vs San Francisco: 1-3

That's getting destroyed.

Cubs bullpen holds up and they get a win over the Cards.

[Hoosier]

All I can say about the Cards is they've had two of the worst teams in the past 10 years to win the World Series.

So, I agree they are lucky.\

I have never understood why alot of people discount that 06 team so much. Yes, on the surface 82 wins isn't great, but, that team was riddled with injuries most of the season, only to get healthy in September. It was basically the same team that had over 100 wins and the best record in the majors in 04 and 05.

That was a hell of a team over that 3 year span, and love them or hate them, those guys deserved to get a ring.

[westofyou]

Cardinals are luckiest team in baseball.

And Reds fans have a major craw in their get me up when it comes to the Cards.

Which is as equally annoying as the Cardinals themselves.

[reds700]

And Reds fans have a major craw in their get me up when it comes to the Cards.

Which is as equally annoying as the Cardinals themselves.

If cards hold on and win today it will be courteousy of an 8th inning wild pitch. Pretty fortunate.

[CardsFanBob]

Never mind the clutch hitting. Actually, the Cards ran into a number of outs the last two games that cost them runs.

[RedlegJake]

Not impressed with a kid who can top 100 and has a change up around 90 mph? Chapman has really spoiled your view of what impresses you :D

Martinez sounds like Stephenson....and the Reds system is loaded with arms. Its at the positions that the Cards have a better system...but prospects can be fools gold. And the Reds aren' t exactly bereft of talent. Both teams look to be well supplied...who actually produces and how soon and how badly each team needs to fill holes will tell the story. I wouldn't look to either team to fall away or pull out of reach of the other over the next 3-4 years based on either team's farm system.

[CardsFanBob]

Martinez sounds like Stephenson....and the Reds system is loaded with arms. Its at the positions that the Cards have a better system...but prospects can be fools gold. And the Reds aren' t exactly bereft of talent. Both teams look to be well supplied...who actually produces and how soon and how badly each team needs to fill holes will tell the story. I wouldn't look to either team to fall away or pull out of reach of the other over the next 3-4 years based on either team's farm system.

Better ramp up that payroll to start locking it down.

[RedlegJake]

Better ramp up that payroll to start locking it down.

There is room. The new money coming on will let the Reds add payroll for raises. It is intelligent forecasting and some luck figuring who is worth it and who to look to the market or the farm to replace. Cards fans should realize money ain't their big seperator anymore. Reds have an owner who will buck up. Even the Cards economize where they can and which team manages to figure the right answers from loaded farms and the current rosters will likely rise enough to keep ahead of the other. I like the Reds chances a lot over the next few years.

[CardsFanBob]

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/bernie-miklasz/bernie-bytes-pujols-still-winning-games-for-cardinals/article_dde00774-3fdb-58a0-966a-2e030aca5659.html

The above article made me think of this thread. Yes, the Cardinals were most definitely lucky that Albert accepted more money from the Angels, instead of agreeing to the Cardinals 10-year offer, which was still something around $270M or so.

That said, they made the most of their luck with smart moves... as Bernie Miklasz points out. Thought some of you might want to read this. Maybe not.

[RedlegJake]

Sometimes the best free agents are the ones you don't sign...especially when they are yours.

[Old school 1983]

Sometimes the best free agents are the ones you don't sign...especially when they are yours.

Exactly. You have to spend wisely and not let your heart in in the way of what's practical for the team.

[RedlegJake]

I thought the Cards were out of their gourds to offer AP as much as they did. Albatross contract even now. Baseball is a funny game. Any one player is NEVER make or break as per the long haul. Seattle lost Johnson Griffey Jr and Rodriguez in a short span yet had their best seasons afterwards. Individual players affect teams less directly in baseball than any other major sport. So, in that respect teams ha e to wary of over valuing any player LT. OTOH you need to be able to lock in core players. How welk you do, especially for small to mid market teams depends on how well you make those choices.Statistically almost all players peak between 28-31 then have a couple years where their experience can compensate for physical decline then they start falling off. So a team that gets pkayers from the farm gets several of a players very best years at low cost. Signing FAs to huge contracts that extend beyond age 33-34 and especially into the late 30s is extremely risky unless the contract is a real bargain overall. Sign them LT in arb, avoid the first couple years of free agency to maximize their best years then let them go. The Cards are good at that but so are the Reds.

The Reds have built a contender from a horrible roster just 4 years ago in 2009. uilt a productive farm system from the dregs in a little more than 5 years and resurrected a team from a decade of futility. To me that is remarkable and it took the right owner. Jocketty may get credot but to me...its all Castellini who demands a winner and will ok contracts and moves Lindner nor Schott ever would have.

[Beltway]

Is Shelby Miller the king of luck? He retired 27 straight Rockies after giving up a single to start the game.

[MikeThierry]

Martinez sounds like Stephenson....and the Reds system is loaded with arms. Its at the positions that the Cards have a better system...but prospects can be fools gold. And the Reds aren' t exactly bereft of talent. Both teams look to be well supplied...who actually produces and how soon and how badly each team needs to fill holes will tell the story. I wouldn't look to either team to fall away or pull out of reach of the other over the next 3-4 years based on either team's farm system.

Except that Martinez is one of the top prospects in baseball often compared to Pedro in his mechanics and is a better pitcher...

I can also tell you right now that the Reds do not have someone like Oscar Taveras waiting in the wings. The Reds have proven though that they are a draft and development machine so I would expect them to get near the top in terms of farm rankings relatively quickly.

[Salukifan2]

Except that Martinez is one of the top prospects in baseball often compared to Pedro in his mechanics and is a better pitcher...

I can also tell you right now that the Reds do not have someone like Oscar Taveras waiting in the wings. The Reds have proven though that they are a draft and development machine so I would expect them to get near the top in terms of farm rankings relatively quickly.

I wouldn't mike. They will stay compettitive to dominant on the major league level, but Walt jocketty doesn't much care about minor league players. I discussed this is in the off season with scrap irony and others. Walt drafts and trades, it is his m.o. look at gregarious. Right now Harvey and miller are doing well in the nl Roy race but I think Gregorious may come out on top. As of right the reds top pitcher is in single A and top hitting prospect is a single tool prospect strugglingling in triple A. It is his M.O. don't get me wrong reds fans, Walt is a great GM, but he will have his Mark Milder with you, its just a matter of time.

[MikeThierry]

I wouldn't mike. They will stay compettitive to dominant on the major league level, but Walt jocketty doesn't much care about minor league players. I discussed this is in the off season with scrap irony and others. Walt drafts and trades, it is his m.o. look at gregarious. Right now Harvey and miller are doing well in the nl Roy race but I think Gregorious may come out on top. As of right the reds top pitcher is in single A and top hitting prospect is a single tool prospect strugglingling in triple A. It is his M.O. don't get me wrong reds fans, Walt is a great GM, but he will have his Mark Milder with you, its just a matter of time.

To me, the scariest thing about Miller is that he hasn't shown his changeup, which is an out pitch for him. He's dominating players without exposing the rest of his arsenal to the rest of the league.

[RedlegJake]

I wouldn't mike. They will stay compettitive to dominant on the major league level, but Walt jocketty doesn't much care about minor league players. I discussed this is in the off season with scrap irony and others. Walt drafts and trades, it is his m.o. look at gregarious. Right now Harvey and miller are doing well in the nl Roy race but I think Gregorious may come out on top. As of right the reds top pitcher is in single A and top hitting prospect is a single tool prospect strugglingling in triple A. It is his M.O. don't get me wrong reds fans, Walt is a great GM, but he will have his Mark Milder with you, its just a matter of time.

completely disagree with you. Walt hasn't built the Reds anything like he did in SL where he had a lot more money to work with. Cincy still doesn't have the draw or market area the Cards do nor as good media deals. Walt has been very farm friendly. Trading abundant prospects is smart yet the Reds also have a number of homegrown players. Gregorious was the key to landing Choo...that was a decision made by Towers more than anything. If Cozart had been their choice he'd have been the one gone. Getting Choo was the target not which SS prospect it took. Walt is a great GM because he can adapt his strategy to fit his teams finances and market. And yeah with Cast and Walt the Reds are repeating history...taking Cards management and retooling...just like when Howsam came.Cards and Reds have had symbiotic relationship since the days of the beer barons of the 1890s with Van der Ahe and Hermann.

[757690]

I wouldn't mike. They will stay compettitive to dominant on the major league level, but Walt jocketty doesn't much care about minor league players. I discussed this is in the off season with scrap irony and others. Walt drafts and trades, it is his m.o. look at gregarious. Right now Harvey and miller are doing well in the nl Roy race but I think Gregorious may come out on top. As of right the reds top pitcher is in single A and top hitting prospect is a single tool prospect strugglingling in triple A. It is his M.O. don't get me wrong reds fans, Walt is a great GM, but he will have his Mark Milder with you, its just a matter of time.

History tells us that this tale your are telling is false. The facts simply don't back this up at all. Jocketty had a great record of developing talent in St. Louis and has continued that success in Cincinnati. Compare his record to any other GM's record of developing talent, and Jocketty will fair favorably.

[RedlegJake]

Except that Martinez is one of the top prospects in baseball often compared to Pedro in his mechanics and is a better pitcher...

I can also tell you right now that the Reds do not have someone like Oscar Taveras waiting in the wings. The Reds have proven though that they are a draft and development machine so I would expect them to get near the top in terms of farm rankings relatively quickly.

Stephenson is still younger and developing. He has all the talent of Martinez if he can stay healthy. Position wise the Cards system right now is poised where the Reds were a couple years before the influx of promotions and trades came. They'll be pushing vets ouf the door soon. Taveras is impressive but Bruce was no less so and has certainly turned out to be solid but not the next great superstar. I'll give the guy props when he completes a couple ML seasons with great numbers. Other than Hamilton abd Winker who is years away the Reds are position poor for star potential. I hope the deep pool of arm talent pans out because that is the Reds hope until a new classcan get going hopefully with a couple high ceiling hitters in it.

[MikeThierry]

I agree with the posters here about Walt. It seems he has employed two different strategies. He knew he had the finances to make the kind of deals he did in St. Louis. He has seemed to shift his strategy when becoming the GM in Cincinnati to a strategy where he knows money constraint will be a factor. Because of this, I would still place him in the top 5 GM's in baseball.

All that said, I think Mozeliak has certainly earned his stripes, so to speak as GM. The Cardinals broadcast gave an interesting graphic in tonight's game as I was switching back and fourth between the hockey game. Since 2006, the Cardinals have either drafted or signed 32 MLB players, which is by far the most of any team in major league baseball. Part of that was Walt but a huge majority of that was due to Mozeliak. Either way, I think both Cincy and St. Louis are amazing in the GM department. In fact, I would put both of their GM's in the top 5 in baseball right now as it stands.

[757690]

Stephenson is still younger and developing. He has all the talent of Martinez if he can stay healthy. Position wise the Cards system right now is poised where the Reds were a couple years before the influx of promotions and trades came. They'll be pushing vets ouf the door soon. Taveras is impressive but Bruce was no less so and has certainly turned out to be solid but not the next great superstar. I'll give the guy props when he completes a couple ML seasons with great numbers. Other than Hamilton abd Winker who is years away the Reds are position poor for star potential. I hope the deep pool of arm talent pans out because that is the Reds hope until a new classcan get going hopefully with a couple high ceiling hitters in it.

For the record, Stephenson is actually a higher rated prospect than Martinez on Fangraphs, though not by much.

But in terms of comparing the two systems, right now, the Cards' is much better than the Reds for one reason. Oscar Taveras. The Reds just don't have anyone in his class of prospect right now, and for me having that big potential All-Star trumps all else.

[Salukifan2]

History tells us that this tale your are telling is false. The facts simply don't back this up at all. Jocketty had a great record of developing talent in St. Louis and has continued that success in Cincinnati. Compare his record to any other GM's record of developing talent, and Jocketty will fair favorably.

No he didn't. Look at his drafts between 2000 and 2007. They were awful. I'm not interested in having this discussion again. If I am right the future will show it and if I am wrong the future will show it.

Truth of the matter is Gregarious is gone and he may end up being an all-star this year. jocketty is leveraging the cincy farm at an alarming rate.

Heed my warning is all I ask, don't simply dismiss it because this is a cards thread

[MikeThierry]

No he didn't. Look at his drafts between 2000 and 2007. They were awful. I'm not interested in having this discussion again. If I am right the future will show it and if I am wrong the future will show it.

Truth of the matter is Gregarious is gone and he may end up being an all-star this year. jocketty is leveraging the cincy farm at an alarming rate.

Heed my warning is all I ask, don't simply dismiss it because this is a cards thread

They may be awful in terms of final results per what that drafted player did in the MLB level however in terms of getting talent for those prospects, I think Walt did well.

[RedlegJake]

Saluki...you're right and everyone else is wrong...that's what you come off as...its just your opinion and I respect that...as I respect Mike's....we just disagree which is what makes a board interesting. I see Walt as doing a very solid job respecting the farm system. Every prospect he has traded had a better or near equivalent so where would they play if they weren't moved? The glove diff between Didi and Zach is squat. Gregorious may be a bitbetter hitter but at seasons end I bet Cozart's overall line is very clise. Alonso couldn't displace Joey and he was flat out horrid in left. Grandal or Mes? Another close call imo and I'll take Latos for the difference. Boxberger? Stewart? Would you take back Sappelt and Wood to give Marshall up? Another close call Wood or Leake? Where does Sappelt fit? Sorry Walt has NOT sold out the farm...he has shrewdly filled holes with excess prospects building a strong pitching staff and decent lineup in the process. Hamilton will be up too. You are right about one thing. The future will prove who is right. And I feel real comfortable about it.

Mike you are right about Mozeliak. I thought the Cards might fade when Walt left but they found a great GM to replace him.

[757690]

No he didn't. Look at his drafts between 2000 and 2007. They were awful. I'm not interested in having this discussion again. If I am right the future will show it and if I am wrong the future will show it.

Truth of the matter is Gregarious is gone and he may end up being an all-star this year. jocketty is leveraging the cincy farm at an alarming rate.

Heed my warning is all I ask, don't simply dismiss it because this is a cards thread

Players drafted by the Cardinals between 2000-2007:

Chris Narveson (traded for Larry Walker)
Yadier Molina
Dan Haren
Joe Mather
Skip Shumaker
Blake Hawksworth (traded for Ryan Theriot)
Kyle McClellan
Daric Barton
Brendan Ryan
Anthony Reyes
Jason Motte
Colby Rasmus
Tyler Green
Mitchell Boggs
Jaime Garcia
Chris Perez
Jon Jay
Shane Robinson
Allen Craig
Luke Gregerson
Pete Kozma
Clayton Mortenson (part of Holliday trade)
Daniel Delscalso

So Jocketty drafted the current Cardinals catcher, probably the best in the game, their 1B, 2B, SS, CF, #2 starting pitcher and closer. Plus, 16 other major leaguers.

For comparison sake, here is what the Rays, who many consider to be the best at drafting and developing players, drafted in that same time period:

Rocco Baldelli
James Shields
Jonny Gomes
Jason Hammel
Chad Gaudin
B.J. Upton
Elijah Dukes
Delmon Young
John Jaso
Jeff Neimann
Reid Brignac
Wade Davis
Andy Sonnanstine
Jeremy Hellickson
Evan Longoria
Alex Cobb
Desmond Jennings
David Price
Matt Moore


The last two years yielded a boatload of talent, and this might be better than the Cards in the same time period. However, when you factor in the fact that the Cardinals drafted between 15-30 in most of those drafts and the Rays drafted between 1-3 in most of those drafts, never drafting higher than 8, the Cardinals did pretty well.

Your story simply doesn't match up with the facts.

(Btw, I feel really dirty having to defend the Cardinals. Ewwwwww)

[CardsFanBob]

I must say, though, from what I understand, Jocketty was stripped of draft decisions the last several years, per owner Bill DeWitt. He instead put Jeff Luhnow (now GM of the Astros) and Mozeliak in charge of those last couple of drafts, which have really made up most of the current team.

[Salukifan2]

Its also widely known that jockerty lost his job in STL because he did not put as much emphasis on developing players in the minors as the club wanted him too.

[757690]

I must say, though, from what I understand, Jocketty was stripped of draft decisions the last several years, per owner Bill DeWitt. He instead put Jeff Luhnow (now GM of the Astros) and Mozeliak in charge of those last couple of drafts, which have really made up most of the current team.

Little bit of info.

GM's never make draft day decisions. Ever.

They hire guys like Luhnow, and Buckley (Reds head of player development) who make all the decisions in draft day. Has been that way forever.

Jim Bowden talks about one draft, when he wanted to draft Tim Costo, but the head of the draft wanted to pick Dan Wilson. Bowden said he picked Dan Wilson, because that's what he paid the draft guy for, to make that decision.

[757690]

Its also widely known that jockerty lost his job in STL because he did not put as much emphasis on developing players in the minors as the club wanted him too.

And history tells us that they clearly were wrong to do so.

Jocketty had a great track record of developing talent in Saint Louis, and continues to have one here in Cincinnati.

[RedlegJake]

Jocketty lost his job because the owner wanted the younger more stat oriented Moz. Nothing to do with player development. They cited "philosophical differences"

[RedlegJake]

DeWitt btw is another of those interlinks threaded through Cards-Reds history.

[MikeThierry]

Little bit of info.

GM's never make draft day decisions. Ever.

They hire guys like Luhnow, and Buckley (Reds head of player development) who make all the decisions in draft day. Has been that way forever.

Jim Bowden talks about one draft, when he wanted to draft Tim Costo, but the head of the draft wanted to pick Dan Wilson. Bowden said he picked Dan Wilson, because that's what he paid the draft guy for, to make that decision.

Luhnow though was in charge of draft decisions before the draft and Jocketty was almost taken completely out of the pre-draft decisions. It was the main reason why there was so much contention in the Cardinals front office.

[Beltway]

Matt Harvey no longer qualifies as a rookie.

[MikeThierry]

And history tells us that they clearly were wrong to do so.

Jocketty had a great track record of developing talent in Saint Louis, and continues to have one here in Cincinnati.

Wrong in doing what? Releasing Walt? History would tell you that it wasnt a bad decision considering that the Cardinals won a WS after he left and they drafted the best farm system in baseball..

[757690]

Wrong in doing what? Releasing Walt? History would tell you that it wasnt a bad decision considering that the Cardinals won a WS after he left and they drafted the best farm system in baseball..

The Cards keep Walt, and I don't think the Reds ever become contenders.

Plus, considering his previous track record and how exceptional he's been in Cincinnati, I think it's safe to assume that the Cards would have done just was well with him as with their current GM.

[Salukifan2]

Wrong in doing what? Releasing Walt? History would tell you that it wasnt a bad decision considering that the Cardinals won a WS after he left and they drafted the best farm system in baseball..

The cards won that WS because of jocketty's players Mike ;)

[MikeThierry]

The Cards keep Walt, and I don't think the Reds ever become contenders.

Plus, considering his previous track record and how exceptional he's been in Cincinnati, I think it's safe to assume that the Cards would have done just was well with him as with their current GM.

You had a very good system in place before Walt took over so I think you would have made headway without him. That said, I don't think you would have done as well as you did without him, so I agree with you there.

It's a "maybe" for me on your second point but I certainly don't think we would have rebuilt the farm system under him. I agree with you in your other posts that Walt did draft some good players but at the same time, Walt viewed the Cardinals system as a trading system instead of one to bring up talent. To a certain extent, his philosophy did work. I just think after a while of keep trading your top prospects will ultimately weaken the club down the road unless those trades were for players that were young with upside (like the JD Drew for Wainwright trade). What is known is that Mozeliak has done a remarkable job so I'm not crying over spilled milk on this topic.

In the end, I think both the Reds and Cardinals have benefited from the GM moves they made. Reds got Walt who has helped them and the Cardinals get a guy in Mozeliak who has practically rebuilt the team while remaining competitive and in the conversation for a legit team on a yearly basis. It's a win/win as far as I'm concerned.

[MikeThierry]

The cards won that WS because of jocketty's players Mike ;)

lol I hope this is sarcastic. Certainly Walt's influence was on that club but there were a ton of players Mo drafted and acquired on that team.

[Old school 1983]

Dear fellow reds fans. The day we can truely forget about what the cardinals are doing and quit making excuses that they are lucky or they use scrap heap guys or make schedule arguments is the day that we all firmly believe the reds are the better team. Lets quit this stuff. In a backhanded way it's showing we are jealous of the cards success. Lets focus on the reds success.

[SpiritofStLouis]

I suppose some people are gonna say that a Cardinal batter hitting a line drive off the pitcher's leg that bounces toward the 1st base dugout, and having the catcher and pitcher chase it, leaving no one at home plate so a slow runner can score from second base with the go ahead run is luck.

;) :beerme: ;)

[Beltway]

I suppose some people are gonna say that a Cardinal batter hitting a line drive off the pitcher's leg that bounces toward the 1st base dugout, and having the catcher and pitcher chase it, leaving no one at home plate so a slow runner can score from second base with the go ahead run is luck.

;) :beerme: ;)
Every team has good and bad luck. Good teams are actually able to capitalize on their good luck. Bad teams blow it.

[SpiritofStLouis]

Every team has good and bad luck. Good teams are actually able to capitalize on their good luck. Bad teams blow it.

Couldn't agree more, friend, just poking a little folly at the absurdity of the thread. ;)

[MikeThierry]

I suppose some people are gonna say that a Cardinal batter hitting a line drive off the pitcher's leg that bounces toward the 1st base dugout, and having the catcher and pitcher chase it, leaving no one at home plate so a slow runner can score from second base with the go ahead run is luck.

;) :beerme: ;)

Nahh... that was just the magic of Ty Wigginton going into full effect :lol:

While that was lucky, the bomb that Holliday hit afterwards wasn't luck.

[RedlegJake]

Couldn't agree more, friend, just poking a little folly at the absurdity of the thread. ;)

The thread has some interesting stuff but you are flat right...the title and initial point of it IS absurd. The Cards have won a lot because they are good not lucky. I love the rivalry growing. Reds haven't had a natural rival in a long time. They were lousy for the longest time and somehow in the west division before that. But I realize the rivalry is hotter for Cincy fans because. they are the team trying to topple the top dog. The Cards meanwhile thru good or lean have always felt that long long rivalry with the Cubbies.

[CardsFanBob]

I don't want to disrespect a solid board based for Reds fans by starting a separate Cards thread, so I figure I'd throw it in here...

What a win? Solid in all respects, even after the rough patch(es) Lynn and the defense had.

And the bullpen is really starting to come together.

Though, I have to say, I have no idea what Matheny is doing with these pitch counts. It's reminding me of Dusty during his Cubbie days. We're going to have a bunch of dead armed starters by September if he keeps letting guys throw 120+ pitches every outing.

[MikeThierry]

I don't want to disrespect a solid board based for Reds fans by starting a separate Cards thread, so I figure I'd throw it in here...

What a win? Solid in all respects, even after the rough patch(es) Lynn and the defense had.

And the bullpen is really starting to come together.

Though, I have to say, I have no idea what Matheny is doing with these pitch counts. It's reminding me of Dusty during his Cubbie days. We're going to have a bunch of dead armed starters by September if he keeps letting guys throw 120+ pitches every outing.

It might be in part because outside of the 8th and 9th innings, he doesn't trust the bullpen.

[SpiritofStLouis]

It might be in part because outside of the 8th and 9th innings, he doesn't trust the bullpen.

I believe it was more that MM wanted to reward Lynn by giving him the opportunity to be in line for the win.

If someone had told me in the second inning that Lynn would go 7 innings, I would have asked them to pass it over.

Matheny is usually pretty good with his pitchers, last weekend notwithstanding. It's hard to pull a pitcher when he's pitching a shut out, and I offered my opinion about last night.

[reds700]

Nahh... that was just the magic of Ty Wigginton going into full effect :lol:

While that was lucky, the bomb that Holliday hit afterwards wasn't luck.

If the Mets make a relatively routine play to get the 1st out in the 7th that homerun doesn't happen. Cards got some fortunate breaks to go ahead that inning.

[SpiritofStLouis]

If the Mets make a relatively routine play to get the 1st out in the 7th that homerun doesn't happen. Cards got some fortunate breaks to go ahead that inning.

Whenever you have to leave your feet, it's at least a fairly difficult play. Having said that, Ankiel should have had it (perhaps if he had his own glove, instead of a pitcher's).

Yes, the Cardinals got some breaks, but so did the Mets. The line drive that Beltran missed in the 2nd inning, he went from the shade directly into the sun just as the ball arrived. He makes that catch, the Mets don't score.

The Cardinals should decline to play the national TV game if they have to start at 6:10, the sun is unbearable.

[reds700]

Whenever you have to leave your feet, it's at least a fairly difficult play. Having said that, Ankiel should have had it (perhaps if he had his own glove, instead of a pitcher's).

Yes, the Cardinals got some breaks, but so did the Mets. The line drive that Beltran missed in the 2nd inning, he went from the shade directly into the sun just as the ball arrived. He makes that catch, the Mets don't score.

The Cardinals should decline to play the national TV game if they have to start at 6:10, the sun is unbearable.

I did not see that play, so I will retract my statement that they were fortunate to win the game.

[RedTeamGo!]

I don't want to disrespect a solid board based for Reds fans by starting a separate Cards thread, so I figure I'd throw it in here...

What a win? Solid in all respects, even after the rough patch(es) Lynn and the defense had.

And the bullpen is really starting to come together.

Though, I have to say, I have no idea what Matheny is doing with these pitch counts. It's reminding me of Dusty during his Cubbie days. We're going to have a bunch of dead armed starters by September if he keeps letting guys throw 120+ pitches every outing.

I don't think the Cardinals are in first place because of luck, but I thought that game last night stunk. The go ahead run came off of a ball flying off of the pitcher's foot, barf. Wigginton would not have even been on base if it wasn't for Ankiel wearing a pitcher's glove (this is major league baseball isn't it? why would they play this man when he doesn't have his own equipment with him?) Then Holliday hit a 2 run bomb off of some old dude that looks like a used car salesman.

[Tony Cloninger]

They brought up somebody from the minors...and he has shut out the Mets for 3 innings. I think it is Red Barrett or Larry Jaster......might as well be anyways since it does not seem to matter.

[Beltway]

They brought up somebody from the minors...and he has shut out the Mets for 3 innings. I think it is Red Barrett or Larry Jaster......might as well be anyways since it does not seem to matter.
It's the Mets...since starting the season 7-4, the Mets have gone 7-17. They're terrible, maybe as bad as the Marlins.

[Tony Cloninger]

It's the Mets...since starting the season 7-4, the Mets have gone 7-17. They're terrible, maybe as bad as the Marlins.

You are right. And this luck thing. This can apply to the Yankees.

I mean....if there is team I detest it is them. How in the holy heck can they continue winning with what they are trotting out there? Look at the 2nd game of DH and who their lineup had on BR....it is unreal. Hafner reminds me of how Berkman all of a sudden got healthy and decided to get fit....and just like that he is fine. If I was an Angels or Indians fan I would be wondering "Oh Now you want to get in shape and start playing baseball again?"

[Beltway]

The Cards rookie pitcher just gave up 4 runs, but the Cards had already scored 9.

[SpiritofStLouis]

The Cards rookie pitcher just gave up 4 runs, but the Cards had already scored 9.

The Cardinals botched a rundown with a catcher running and 2 outs, or it would have been 1.

Nice to see the team finally starting to hit. It's about time.

[SpiritofStLouis]

Carlos Martinez comes in and strikes out the side, hitting 100 on the gun a couple times. Not often you see a kid throw that hard, but it's not his best pitch.

Not bad for a 21 year old.

[MikeThierry]

To me, the pleasant surprise of the year for the Cardinals is Matt Carpenter. With Shelby Miller, we knew he had top of the rotation talent. I never in a million years would have thought Matt Carpenter would be leading all 2B in WAR according to fangraphs. I don't see this pace continuing but it still represents more production at 2B than the Cardinals have seen the past couple of years. Certainly better than the .2 WAR Daniel Descalso put up last year.

[SpiritofStLouis]

To me, the pleasant surprise of the year for the Cardinals is Matt Carpenter. With Shelby Miller, we knew he had top of the rotation talent. I never in a million years would have thought Matt Carpenter would be leading all 2B in WAR according to fangraphs. I don't see this pace continuing but it still represents more production at 2B than the Cardinals have seen the past couple of years. Certainly better than the .2 WAR Daniel Descalso put up last year.

I agree, even the most optimistic Cardinal fan couldn't have seen the production the team has gotten from MCarp, especially on defense.

I have to admit, I thought putting him at 2B would weaken the bench to the point that the trade off wouldn't be worth it, and that he would keep a seat warm at 2B until Wong arrives.

Now it looks like Wong might be looking for a utility roster spot or staying in Memphis a bit longer. Speaking of Memphis, I like what I'm seeing from Jackson so far (.372 after tonight).

[bounty37h]

^Has this become a Cards board? Why do we have game run downs going on here? I dont mind Cards fans here and discussing baseball in general, an outside view at times, but geez, do we need play by pay?

[Old school 1983]

Could the cards success be because of a well run organization and not luck? Hmmm? Maybe if we as reds fans would be secure and confident enough in our team and not start how lucky the Cards are threads we wouldn't be subject to so much cards talk.

http://m.nypost.com/p/sports/mets/cardinal_rules_JEo4rdLZkb8WUDl3ad2NaI

[RedTeamGo!]

^Has this become a Cards board? Why do we have game run downs going on here? I dont mind Cards fans here and discussing baseball in general, an outside view at times, but geez, do we need play by pay?

Agreed, it's obnoxious. My favorites are the discussions about how amazing Shelby Miller and Trevor Rosenthal are.

Also: Pete Kozma has a slightly better WAR through 40 games so he is a more talented player.

Maybe we should just get it over with and make a Cardinals sub-forum ON A CINCINNATI REDS MESSAGE BOARD!!!!

[CardsFanBob]

^Has this become a Cards board? Why do we have game run downs going on here? I dont mind Cards fans here and discussing baseball in general, an outside view at times, but geez, do we need play by pay?

No offense meant, but you guys started the thread. We're just discussing our team in it. In theory, we could start a bunch of new threads here, because nothing -- outside of monitors -- is stopping us.

It's the nature of a rivalry. I'd embrace it.

[RedTeamGo!]

No offense meant, but you guys started the thread. We're just discussing our team in it. In theory, we could start a bunch of new threads here, because nothing -- outside of monitors -- is stopping us.

It's the nature of a rivalry. I'd embrace it.

Do Reds and Cubs fans really post on your cardinals board? Do you post on your cardinals board? Is there a cardinals board?

I just honestly find it odd you guys all post here. Are the Cardinals boards really that bad?

[CardsFanBob]

Do Reds and Cubs fans really post on your cardinals board? Do you post on your cardinals board? Is there a cardinals board?

I just honestly find it odd you guys all post here. Are the Cardinals boards really that bad?


Good and fair question. I don't know that there's a Cardinals message board as well run as this one -- at least not one that concentrates 100% on the Cardinals, as you do the Reds.

I know that I found this board after one of your members came on a STL-based message board (tippingpitchers.com) and started a bit of a flame war. He's subsequently become an off and on-again regular poster, and the flaming has greatly subsided. He's the one who made me search out this site, as he referenced it multiple times.

Personally, I enjoy seeing what other fans are saying -- and specifically saying about my team. And I enjoy discussing their opinions when I think they're off or just plain uneducated.

[RedlegJake]

Reds fans started the thread. To my knowledge Cards fans haven't started any Cards specific threads.

None of the Cardinal fans has flamed or abused the board - answering and analyzing seems fine to me when the thread addresses their team and is started by a Reds fan.

I want their input for one. I don t have time to follow every team as closely as I do the Reds. Their input on players educates me. Especially on their prospects.

It is all baseball and I like baseball in general not just the Reds.

Again...this Sundeck group seems pretty mindful that its a Reds board. I welcome their input. As CFBob said its what you get with a rivalry...embrace it.

[Salukifan2]

Do Reds and Cubs fans really post on your cardinals board? Do you post on your cardinals board? Is there a cardinals board?

I just honestly find it odd you guys all post here. Are the Cardinals boards really that bad?

Cards talk on STLtoday contains some of the most vile sports talk I've ever seen because it only has one, lazy, moderator. Cardstalk is also loaded with trolls mainly cubs and reds trolls.

CardsClubhouse is a decent board but doesn't have near the number of active users as redszone, but the people their are very respectful.

Birdsonthebat is another cards board that is loaded with southern Missouri redneck types that just want to talk trash on liberals and Obama.


Redszone provides the most level headed baseball discussion i have found on the internet. One day the reds will dominate the division and the cardinals will lose 100 games, but i will still come to redszone.

[SpiritofStLouis]

Do Reds and Cubs fans really post on your cardinals board? Do you post on your cardinals board? Is there a cardinals board?

I just honestly find it odd you guys all post here. Are the Cardinals boards really that bad?

Personally, I post on several team boards. Being a NYer, I cut my teeth on NY sports blogs and still do. Posted on the Cubs board until they got so bad that it wasn't fun anymore. Post in Pittsburgh and Milwaukee occasionally.

Post on a couple St.Louis boards, and they're what they are, sports blogs. Unfortunately, they only post about the Reds when the two teams play.

I always like to get other team's perspectives, gives me a more objective point of view. That's why I never listen to the Cardinal broadcasters, I don't like homers and I wanna hear what other teams are saying about the Redbirds.

Since the Cardinals and Reds have developed a nice rivalry, and since there always seem to be Cardinal themed threads over here, it's a logical fit.

[SpiritofStLouis]

Cards talk on STLtoday contains some of the most vile sports talk I've ever seen because it only has one, lazy, moderator. Cardstalk is also loaded with trolls mainly cubs and reds trolls.

CardsClubhouse is a decent board but doesn't have near the number of active users as redszone, but the people their are very respectful.

Birdsonthebat is another cards board that is loaded with southern Missouri redneck types that just want to talk trash on liberals and Obama.


Redszone provides the most level headed baseball discussion i have found on the internet. One day the reds will dominate the division and the cardinals will lose 100 games, but i will still come to redszone.

Try St.Louis Legends, it's been around a couple years and we're all ex CT posters who got sick of the very things you mentioned.

Plus, we get together once a year to make a weekend out of it and take in a game. Folks come from all over the country. This year, it's the weekend of July 19, the game on the 20th.

I agree about RedZone, it's a fair and well run site. Personally, I enjoy different perspectives and don't care for sites that refu7se to allow for opposing fans. They get stale and aren't objective.

They way I see it, if you behave yourself and bring something to the table, the more the merrier.

[Tony Cloninger]

Carlos Martinez comes in and strikes out the side, hitting 100 on the gun a couple times. Not often you see a kid throw that hard, but it's not his best pitch.

Not bad for a 21 year old.


I prefer the line where he pitched not even an inning and gave up 3 runs...all earned against Colorado. That line was much better, IMO.

[Tony Cloninger]

Cards talk on STLtoday contains some of the most vile sports talk I've ever seen because it only has one, lazy, moderator. Cardstalk is also loaded with trolls mainly cubs and reds trolls.

CardsClubhouse is a decent board but doesn't have near the number of active users as redszone, but the people their are very respectful.

Birdsonthebat is another cards board that is loaded with southern Missouri redneck types that just want to talk trash on liberals and Obama.


Redszone provides the most level headed baseball discussion i have found on the internet. One day the reds will dominate the division and the cardinals will lose 100 games, but i will still come to redszone.



What about Viva El Birdos? That seems like a fun board.

Besides the fact that they do not believe in regression......and that their pitchers will actually not be like the 1968 Indians pitching staff after the season is all said and done..... and that any homer hit by the Reds in GABP is a result of it being a small park...every single time..... it is actually a funny board.

[Salukifan2]

What about Viva El Birdos? That seems like a fun board.

Besides the fact that they do not believe in regression......and that their pitchers will actually not be like the 1968 Indians pitching staff after the season is all said and done..... and that any homer hit by the Reds in GABP is a result of it being a small park...every single time..... it is actually a funny board.

Well they're right about GABP ;)

[SpiritofStLouis]

I prefer the line where he pitched not even an inning and gave up 3 runs...all earned against Colorado. That line was much better, IMO.

Like I said, 21 yrs. old. Besides, if he didn't give up those runs, his ERA would be 0.00 ;)

[Tony Cloninger]

The Mets are truly terrible. You tie the game and then right away give up base runners and then with 2 outs...you have the Michelin Man at the plate, which is an insult to the Michelin Man and you throw a wild pitch?
Now Mujica has turned into Mariano Rivera....one pitch that hitters cannot lay off. Unreal.
May the June Swoon descend on you like a pack of locusts.

[bounty37h]

No offense meant, but you guys started the thread. We're just discussing our team in it. In theory, we could start a bunch of new threads here, because nothing -- outside of monitors -- is stopping us.

It's the nature of a rivalry. I'd embrace it.

I dont mind the other fans here, talking basbeall in general, specific topics, I like to hear other opinions and not through red-rose colored glasses all the time, but this thread turned into "did you see so and so come in and strike out the side", etc.

[SpiritofStLouis]

The Mets are truly terrible. You tie the game and then right away give up base runners and then with 2 outs...you have the Michelin Man at the plate, which is an insult to the Michelin Man and you throw a wild pitch?
Now Mujica has turned into Mariano Rivera....one pitch that hitters cannot lay off. Unreal.
May the June Swoon descend on you like a pack of locusts.

The Mets are better than they're playing, but you're right, they are putrid right now. But so are the Marlins. ;)

You're right about the summer months. The last couple years the Cardinals have gotten off to very good starts and then played .500 ball the rest of the year.

The other achilles heel has been their record against the second division clubs.

One thing the Reds have been great at is beating up on the tomato cans. The Cardinals need to take a page from their book.

This year's team is deeper than the last couple years, so hopefully they can avoid the summer malaise. Plus, we've already had to replace our ace, our closer, and our starting SS. Hopefully, we'll have Carp back for the stretch run.

As for beating up on the scrubs, who knows ?

Gonna be fun either way (you guys have the easier September schedule).

[ajswartz888]

The Mets are truly terrible. You tie the game and then right away give up base runners and then with 2 outs...you have the Michelin Man at the plate, which is an insult to the Michelin Man and you throw a wild pitch?
Now Mujica has turned into Mariano Rivera....one pitch that hitters cannot lay off. Unreal.
May the June Swoon descend on you like a pack of locusts.
As long as the October swoon that seems to bother some teams doesn't come around. I can handle a June swoon. It's that October swoon that sucks. ;)

[reds700]

Another misplayed ball gives the Cards an early lead. This has become a common occurence.

[Tony Cloninger]

The Mets are better than they're playing, but you're right, they are putrid right now. But so are the Marlins. ;)

You're right about the summer months. The last couple years the Cardinals have gotten off to very good starts and then played .500 ball the rest of the year.

The other achilles heel has been their record against the second division clubs.

One thing the Reds have been great at is beating up on the tomato cans. The Cardinals need to take a page from their book.

This year's team is deeper than the last couple years, so hopefully they can avoid the summer malaise. Plus, we've already had to replace our ace, our closer, and our starting SS. Hopefully, we'll have Carp back for the stretch run.

As for beating up on the scrubs, who knows ?

Gonna be fun either way (you guys have the easier September schedule).


You have to beat the teams that are playing badly or are bad. No excuses there to not take 2 out of 3.
In 2010... Reds could Not beat the cardinals very well but beat everyone else up and STL struggled against the Cubs and Astros or whomever scrub team was that year.

[Tony Cloninger]

As long as the October swoon that seems to bother some teams doesn't come around. I can handle a June swoon. It's that October swoon that sucks. ;)

Your team has clearly proved in 2011-12 that regular season did not matter much at all. Just get in there......and you always have a chance.

[CardsFanBob]

Your team has clearly proved in 2011-12 that regular season did not matter much at all. Just get in there......and you always have a chance.

You're absolutely right about that. I'd actually prefer it that the Cards don't finish the season with the best record in baseball. That's typically when they don't win it all. For example, that 04 team won 105 games, I believe... Unreal. And got swept by the damn BoSox.

[Beltway]

You're absolutely right about that. I'd actually prefer it that the Cards don't finish the season with the best record in baseball. That's typically when they don't win it all. For example, that 04 team won 105 games, I believe... Unreal. And got swept by the damn BoSox.
The Cardinals also lost in 1985 and 2005 when they had the best record in MLB (101 and 100 wins, respectively). And in 1987, they lost to an 85 Twins team that only won because they had homefield advantage (29-52 road record that season). I suspect that if you looked over all of Cardinals history, you'd see their "luck" being pretty much neutral. They've had some pretty crappy things (bad luck) happen to them in the past, like Vince Coleman getting run over by a tarp and the Don Denkinger call in 1985.

[Salukifan2]

Your team has clearly proved in 2011-12 that regular season did not matter much at all. Just get in there......and you always have a chance.

How did they prove regular season doesn't matter. The '11 team won 90 games and '12 won 88. Those are two very solid seasons. Not good enough to win the division because Milwaukee and Cindy put up great seasons but they were still good teams. Those teams faced their own adversity and persevered to make the playoffs.

If your issue is with MLB and how they run the playoff system take it up with bud selig, don't just hate on the teams that have taken advantage of it.

For the record I wish we still had an east and west and only 4 teams got I

[SpiritofStLouis]

No matter how you get in, you still have to win 11 games. And if you get in as a wildcard, you don't have home field advantage for any series (unless your league wins the farce that is the all star game).

[lidspinner]

I have been watching every Cards game I can and I am seeing some great baseball being played....situational hitting is what is winning them games....they are hitting when it counts and they are taking bases when they need to....not to mention their defense has not been hurting them....starting pitching is not only looking dominant but they are doing exactly what they are supposed to do, throw strikes and let your defense work.....they are getting strike outs as well but I have seen more 0-2 fastballs thrown by them than any other team I have seen....the difference is when you throw that fastball down and away the batter usually hits it on the ground as opposed to Cingrani or Bronson throwing it high and it gets placed in the stands about 400 feet away.

I was thinking it was mainly luck but after watching 15 Cards games I am seeing a good team playing team baseball....pitching changes being made when they are supposed to be made and not when they are not.....NOW, lets see if those still apply in 2 months from now.....other teams could be hotter and make the Cards moves look bad, lets not forget that either.....but right now the Cardinals are playing some of the best baseball in all of MLB..

[Tony Cloninger]

Gast has 4 shutout innings for the cardinals. Looks about as unimpressive as Matt Maloney was a few years ago. Just throws slop and hitters cannot figure out to go the other way with him until at least 3 AB's in.

[Tony Cloninger]

How did they prove regular season doesn't matter. The '11 team won 90 games and '12 won 88. Those are two very solid seasons. Not good enough to win the division because Milwaukee and Cindy put up great seasons but they were still good teams. Those teams faced their own adversity and persevered to make the playoffs.

If your issue is with MLB and how they run the playoff system take it up with bud selig, don't just hate on the teams that have taken advantage of it.

For the record I wish we still had an east and west and only 4 teams got I

I did not say anything about hating? Please.....if you're a grown man don't use this word...save it for the kids and girlies. :laugh:

You're organization should send thank you cards every year to The Braves for how they got in in 2011. Hence once of the reasons for the title of this thread.

Last year your team had many injuries which derailed what would have been an even better season that you had.....so yes their perseverance should be acknowledged along with their bloody good luck.

[reds700]

Cards get out of bases loaded no out jam facing middle of order. Segura pops up to infield on a hanger. Braun gets ahead 3-1 and grounds into double play.

[Tony Cloninger]

Cards get out of bases loaded no out jam facing middle of order. Segura pops up to infield on a hanger. Braun gets ahead 3-1 and grounds into double play.

Unreal. 1 hot..very hot hitter and then a very good hitter....and no....a rookie reliever, DO Not care how good he has looked at Double A...he is a rookie MR from Double A and that is all they can do.

The DP ball that Braun hit was in a good location but i have seen Braun still fight those off and hit them better than that.

[reds700]

And chapman gives up another game. That right there is why cards will win the division. Clutch vs no clutch.

[westofyou]

And chapman gives up another game. That right there is why cards will win the division. Clutch vs no clutch.

Right. Because the Cards have no blown saves this year

[reds700]

Right. Because the Cards have no blown saves this year

Bullpen is our only advantage over them. Blown saves cut into that advantage.

[SpiritofStLouis]

Right. Because the Cards have no blown saves this year

True, but that guy's out for the season.

The Chief is 13 for 13.

[SpiritofStLouis]

It's a long season and the Redbirds have to go back to the West Coast. Who has two California trips before Memorial Day ?

Oh well, might as well get them out of the way.

[TDogg]

Exactly. Rather get them out of the way earlier than later

[mikdavrut]

I'm just curious...and I am NOT asking this question because you Cards fans "annoy" me in any way (I have expressed prior to this in other threads that I personally actually enjoy having you guys around...I learn quite a bit from some of your posts to be honest)....but, are the Cardinals forums really THAT bad that you guys would rather post on a Reds forum? Like I said, I LIKE having you guys around here, I'm just very honestly wondering?

[ForPetesSake]

The Cardinals also don't put .200 hitters into the 1- and 2-holes. :dunno:

[SpiritofStLouis]

I'm just curious...and I am NOT asking this question because you Cards fans "annoy" me in any way (I have expressed prior to this in other threads that I personally actually enjoy having you guys around...I learn quite a bit from some of your posts to be honest)....but, are the Cardinals forums really THAT bad that you guys would rather post on a Reds forum? Like I said, I LIKE having you guys around here, I'm just very honestly wondering?

Honestly, this site is better than most. As far as St.Louis blogs, the Post Dispatch site, CardsTalk, can be a bit tedious. Like many sites, their is a pecking order (perceived) and a lot of border skirmishes. But for the most part, it's like most sites. You have your knee jerk reactors, your devout homers, your objective posters (who are perceived by homers to be trolls) and your voices of reason.

For me, I enjoy getting the perspective from other sources. The same reason I make a point of listening to the other team's announcers, I enjoy getting the feedback from other team's sites. I was on the Brewer's site this weekend and have spent time on the Pittsburgh site. I used to visit the Cubs site, but have gotten away from it. Their posters are a bit too angry and disrespectful for my taste. I can deal with it when they're relevant, but that's not the case recently (okay, you can argue 103 years relevant ;)).

I still post on a couple Cardinal sites regularly, but there are lulls in the conversation from time to time. That is when I visit this here swell site.

I'm not here to provoke, just share in some baseball discussion. I appreciate your attitude towards " outsiders ". I have always enjoyed feedback from opposing team's posters, and actually have little patience for fellow Cardinal posters who take it as a personal affront when another team's fans chime in.

I was raised in Queens, N.Y., so I enjoy a little diversity. It makes for a better forum, IMHO.

[CardsFanBob]

I'm just curious...and I am NOT asking this question because you Cards fans "annoy" me in any way (I have expressed prior to this in other threads that I personally actually enjoy having you guys around...I learn quite a bit from some of your posts to be honest)....but, are the Cardinals forums really THAT bad that you guys would rather post on a Reds forum? Like I said, I LIKE having you guys around here, I'm just very honestly wondering?


Yeah, there isn't a site I found -- that's devoted solely to the Cardinals -- as strong, or gets as much traffic, as this one.

I've mentioned it before, but I found this site when one of your members came to www.tippingpitchers.com. It's a St. Louis based message board. I'd say 80% of the topics are sports-related; the other 20% is a mix of current events, music, the fairer sex, etc. It's a really solid site with some extremely knowledgeable baseball fans. You can always come visit if you'd like to see what Cards fans are thinking/discussing.

As Spirit said, I come here because the Reds are our current rival. I enjoy seeing what the other side thinks about our squad.

[TDogg]

I lurk here a lot, and some of the posters here are much more knowledgeable than me. I don't have any beef with the Reds and just like talking baseball.

[Norm Chortleton]

The Cardinals also don't put .200 hitters into the 1- and 2-holes. :dunno:

You forgot to say, "Pete would not and did not put .200 hitters at the top of the order."

:p

[MikeThierry]

I'm just curious...and I am NOT asking this question because you Cards fans "annoy" me in any way (I have expressed prior to this in other threads that I personally actually enjoy having you guys around...I learn quite a bit from some of your posts to be honest)....but, are the Cardinals forums really THAT bad that you guys would rather post on a Reds forum? Like I said, I LIKE having you guys around here, I'm just very honestly wondering?

Plain and simple, yes.

Honestly, I really think some of the vile nature of those boards have a lot to do with the other media in town. The minority viewpoint is often the loudest on there and drown out quasi-logical baseball talk. I contribute a lot of that to guys on the radio like Kevin Slaten who has some of the dumbest opinions I've ever heard on the radio. We're talking about a guy, for example, that rooted for the Cardinals to lose or not make the playoffs in 2011 based on his hatred for Tony LaRussa. His minions seem to congregate around message boards where they scream the loudest. It's a reason why I've been here for close to 3 years now.

[RedlegJake]

Mike the Cards were my 2d favorite childhood team...and that lasted until they entered the same division and Tony L became manager. I despise LaRussa. Whiniest "they played foul" manager (while his own team did the same or worse) since Little Napoleon John McGraw. Now the rivalry is set in my bones and I dislike everything Cardinal except the color red and Stan the Man's memory.

[ervinsm84]

I finally opened this thread because I thought it had to be about sequencing/clusterluck and how the Cards are some 20 or so runs above expectation.

Surprisingly I didn't see it mentioned anywhere

[SpiritofStLouis]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/942867_10151457827626840_1911331669_n.jpg

SAWEEET !

[RedTeamGo!]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/942867_10151457827626840_1911331669_n.jpg

SAWEEET !

:barf:

[757690]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/942867_10151457827626840_1911331669_n.jpg

SAWEEET !

The SI curse.

Already two are down. How long before they all are ;)

[RedsfaninMO]

The SI curse.

Already two are down. How long before they all are ;)

As a Reds fan stuck in MO, I can't stand the Cards. The "Cardinal Way" and the "Best fans in baseball" stuff out here is sickening. I'm sure some of my co-workers will put this SI cover in a frame over their desk. The Cards won't be there in the end, and I can't wait until the lucky streak of sneaking into the playoffs is over. The Reds pitching staff is better top to bottom, and was even before Garcia went down.

[SpiritofStLouis]

The SI curse.

Already two are down. How long before they all are ;)

Don't think that didn't occur to me before I posted it. :)

Fortunately, I'm not superstitious and don't believe in jinxes and curses.

[757690]

Don't think that didn't occur to me before I posted it. :)

Fortunately, I'm not superstitious and don't believe in jinxes and curses.

I don't believe in jinxes either. It's unlucky to believe in them ;)

[SpiritofStLouis]

As a Reds fan stuck in MO, I can't stand the Cards. The "Cardinal Way" and the "Best fans in baseball" stuff out here is sickening. I'm sure some of my co-workers will put this SI cover in a frame over their desk. The Cards won't be there in the end, and I can't wait until the lucky streak of sneaking into the playoffs is over. The Reds pitching staff is better top to bottom, and was even before Garcia went down.

You very well could be right (except the lucky part). I do find it curious that for every thread I read espousing the virtues of the Reds' superiority, a trade proposal thread pops up.

Color me confused. ;)

[Old school 1983]

If the cards had an inning like the reds did today against Parnell this thread would be blowing up

[RedTeamGo!]

You very well could be right (except the lucky part). I do find it curious that for every thread I read espousing the virtues of the Reds' superiority, a trade proposal thread pops up.

Color me confused. ;)

Only player reds fans want to make a trade for is a right handed left fielder because Ludwick is out indefinitely. Reds pitching is excellent, defense is solid, and everything is going well. Just because a few fans started trade proposal threads doesn't mean the entire fanbase is screaming for a trade.

[SpiritofStLouis]

If the cards had an inning like the reds did today against Parnell this thread would be blowing up

I saw that, you might as well give Ike Davis a trash can lid instead of a glove. :)

[Old school 1983]

I saw that, you might as well give Ike Davis a trash can lid instead of a glove. :)

Like I always say, put the ball in play and luck happens. Strike out and only splinters in your butt happen. I've seen harder balls hit with pool cues than the ones Phillips and Frazier hit that inning but they got the job done. Just more evidence showing that strikeouts do matter in certain situations and putting the ball in play can play a huge role.

[SpiritofStLouis]

Like I always say, put the ball in play and luck happens. Strike out and only splinters in your butt happen. I've seen harder balls hit with pool cues than the ones Phillips and Frazier hit that inning but they got the job done. Just more evidence showing that strikeouts do matter in certain situations and putting the ball in play can play a huge role.

Never bought the modern argument that strike outs are overrated. Anything is possible once you put the bat on the ball.

[Old school 1983]

Never bought the modern argument that strike outs are overrated. Anything is possible once you put the bat on the ball.

I don't fully buy into it. Inthinknthere are definitely situations where it helps to put the ball in play but others where it's ok to air it out. It's just the latest fad in baseball analysis right now. I remember like 10 years ago how a huge deal was made about how many pitches a hitter can work a pitcher and it was shown the best two perceived teams at the time, the Yankees and Red Sox worked the most pitches. Philosophies change with time. I think the best approach to player and team analysis is taking parts of all of them and not valuing one of them over another or saying that one stat is infallible and supreme to the others, much like I see OPS or wOBA thrown around on here.

[SpiritofStLouis]

Tonight Tyler Lyons became the 7th pitcher in MLB history making his debut to bat before he threw a pitch.

His line (so far) : 6 IP 3 H 0 R 1 BB 4 K 75 pitches 48 K

The guy's a John Tudor clone, nothing over 90 mph, soft and softer. About time we got a soft tosser, we sure can't hit 'em.

[MikeThierry]

As a Reds fan stuck in MO, I can't stand the Cards. The "Cardinal Way" and the "Best fans in baseball" stuff out here is sickening. I'm sure some of my co-workers will put this SI cover in a frame over their desk. The Cards won't be there in the end, and I can't wait until the lucky streak of sneaking into the playoffs is over. The Reds pitching staff is better top to bottom, and was even before Garcia went down.

I agree with you about the Best fans in baseball stuff. We can't claim that after Jack Buck died. He set the tone for Cardinals nation to act and we don't have that strong presence anymore.

However, the Cardinal Way is legit. It's been that way since Branch Rickey started the minor league system back in the day for the Cardinals. I think part of it goes into having guys understanding the fundamentals in the minors rather than learning it on the big league level as well as not calling up guys to start until they are fully ready to play. Matt Carpenter is a perfect example of it. Of course there are other clubs that do the same thing but it has been a constant with the Cardinals since day one of the minor league sytem. This is especially true during the George Kissell years, who is arguably the best developer of minor league talent in the history of baseball.

This article sort of explains it a bit better than I can:

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/now-in-book-form-the-cardinal-way/article_1c76331b-077e-57aa-9333-86a85b1f5ac2.html

Here is a pretty good obituary discussing Kissell and what he meant as far as developing players in the Cardinals organization.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/to-st-louis-cardinals-george-kissell-was--professor/844773

[SpiritofStLouis]

I agree with you about the Best fans in baseball stuff. We can't claim that after Jack Buck died. He set the tone for Cardinals nation to act and we don't have that strong presence anymore.

However, the Cardinal Way is legit. It's been that way since Branch Rickey started the minor league system back in the day for the Cardinals. I think part of it goes into having guys understanding the fundamentals in the minors rather than learning it on the big league level as well as not calling up guys to start until they are fully ready to play. Matt Carpenter is a perfect example of it. Of course there are other clubs that do the same thing but it has been a constant with the Cardinals since day one of the minor league sytem. This is especially true during the George Kissell years, who is arguably the best developer of minor league talent in the history of baseball.

This article sort of explains it a bit better than I can:

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/now-in-book-form-the-cardinal-way/article_1c76331b-077e-57aa-9333-86a85b1f5ac2.html

Here is a pretty good obituary discussing Kissell and what he meant as far as developing players in the Cardinals organization.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/to-st-louis-cardinals-george-kissell-was--professor/844773

One can just imagine how many more World Series trophies the Cardinals would have if not for Kenesaw Mountain Landis.

He deemed that the Redbirds had such an unfair advantage with Rickey's minor league network, he forced the team to give up 50 players (dispersed among the other teams) not once, but twice.

Talk about the man keeping you down. Maybe we'd have 27 championships.

[MikeThierry]

One can just imagine how many more World Series trophies the Cardinals would have if not for Kenesaw Mountain Landis.

He deemed that the Redbirds had such an unfair advantage with Rickey's minor league network, he forced the team to give up 50 players (dispersed among the other teams) not once, but twice.

Talk about the man keeping you down. Maybe we'd have 27 championships.

lol I wouldn't go that far on the championships but what Landis did was ridiculous. People say guys like Goodell and Stern have too much power as commissioners but they don't have nearly the same kind of power that Landis had.

[Goose1701]

In keeping with the title of the thread, the Cards do have the NL's 2nd highest BABIP at .311(Giants at .312). Reds are at .296.

Though last year, the Reds also posted a .296 BABIP, while the Cardinals were against 2nd in the NL at .316

[Old school 1983]

In keeping with the title of the thread, the Cards do have the NL's 2nd highest BABIP at .311(Giants at .312). Reds are at .296.

Though last year, the Reds also posted a .296 BABIP, while the Cardinals were against 2nd in the NL at .316

That could lead to luck for sure, or a variety of other things such as guys hitting the ball harder or good hit placement which isn't totally luck. I think when the reds take the next step and win it all the things being said such as the cards are lucky and the playoffs are a crapshoot, which sound very excuse like to me, will dissipate.

[ajswartz888]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/942867_10151457827626840_1911331669_n.jpg

SAWEEET !
This is neat. Garcia is out for the year but you can insert Chris Carpenter in his place in about 3 weeks and keep moving on. Maybe they can take this picture again in 3 weeks with Carp in it instead of Garcia. The pitching depth STL has is absolutely amazing. Insane!

[MikeThierry]

That could lead to luck for sure, or a variety of other things such as guys hitting the ball harder or good hit placement which isn't totally luck. I think when the reds take the next step and win it all the things being said such as the cards are lucky and the playoffs are a crapshoot, which sound very excuse like to me, will dissipate.

Or having the novel concept of putting high OBP guys at the top of the lineup. Matt Carpenter has scored a ton of runs and Carlos Beltran is arguably the best 2 hole hitter in baseball right now. Not a whole lot of mystery as to why they score runs.

[RedlegJake]

lol I wouldn't go that far on the championships but what Landis did was ridiculous. People say guys like Goodell and Stern have too much power as commissioners but they don't have nearly the same kind of power that Landis had.

Historically Landis is vindicated. At the time the Cards were stockpiling players and their huge system (4x as many farm teams as now) kept players from any chance of promotion unless the ML starter was traded or retired. The Rickey system was patently unfair to the players, and the Cards were the biggest violator by far. Every player he released would have been gone with the modern Rule 5 and minor league free agency. At that time though no way was baseball going to institute FA at any level so Landis had little other choice to rectify the situation. He saved several careers of guys who otherwise would have languished for years without getting a shot.

[Beltway]

In keeping with the title of the thread, the Cards do have the NL's 2nd highest BABIP at .311(Giants at .312). Reds are at .296.

Though last year, the Reds also posted a .296 BABIP, while the Cardinals were against 2nd in the NL at .316
Something interesting I heard during a game I was watching recently, supposedly the speed of the ball coming off the bat is going to be measured for every swing in the future (if it isn't already). I think this is going to change our view on BABIP for hitters (and possibly pitchers, too). I wouldn't be surprised to find out that hitters who hit the ball harder, consistently, have a higher BABIP because ground balls get through the infield more quickly. This could turn out to not be true due to other factors mitigating it, but I'm interested to see the results.

[frivolousz21]

Every team is lucky.

[Old school 1983]

Or having the novel concept of putting high OBP guys at the top of the lineup. Matt Carpenter has scored a ton of runs and Carlos Beltran is arguably the best 2 hole hitter in baseball right now. Not a whole lot of mystery as to why they score runs.

I can agree with that. I don't think the cards are lucky at all. They are a well run organization. I just think when my fellow reds fans say things like the cards get lucky or the playoffs are a crapshoot it's because they are looking for an excuse to explain why the cards have been more successful in the playoffs than the reds

[redhat]

Just finished reading this entire thread, and I must say it's one of the best threads I've ever seen on this board.

To answer the question a few have asked (about posting here because other Cards boards are terrible)...

They aren't all terrible. They just aren't as active. I post mostly at BirdsOnTheBat (http://www.birdsonthebat.org/forumdisplay.php?f=1) which has knowledgeable fans and quite a few, to put it delicately, "quirky" personalities. They have deliberately made the site difficult to find on google, presumably because they don't want to be overrun by new members coming from Cards Talk (the Post-Dispatch message board).

I mostly enjoy the talk there, but I visit other team's boards regularly to get perspective from fans of other teams. This board is very well run and I generally enjoy reading, especially the game threads when the Cards play the Reds.

I'm enjoying the fact that the Cards and Reds have the two best records in the National League, and believe that will be the situation at season's end. It's become quite a good rivalry.

[Strike3Called]

test

[RedlegJake]

I can agree with that. I don't think the cards are lucky at all. They are a well run organization. I just think when my fellow reds fans say things like the cards get lucky or the playoffs are a crapshoot it's because they are looking for an excuse to explain why the cards have been more successful in the playoffs than the reds

No excuses...the playoffs ARE a crapshoot. If the best team won the Rangers would have a couple rings and the Yanks would have about 5 more titles.

[Beltway]

No excuses...the playoffs ARE a crapshoot. If the best team won the Rangers would have a couple rings and the Yanks would have about 5 more titles.
The Yankees would have 5 more titles? They're already 27-13 in World Series. I doubt that, especially when you consider seasons like 2000 where the Yankees had a worse record than the wildcard Seattle Mariners, but still won the World Series.

[RedlegJake]

The Yankees would have 5 more titles? They're already 27-13 in World Series. I doubt that, especially when you consider seasons like 2000 where the Yankees had a worse record than the wildcard Seattle Mariners, but still won the World Series.

You just proved my point. The playoffs are not who is best but can you get hot at the right time...

[IABucFan]

Just finished reading this entire thread, and I must say it's one of the best threads I've ever seen on this board.

To answer the question a few have asked (about posting here because other Cards boards are terrible)...

They aren't all terrible. They just aren't as active. I post mostly at BirdsOnTheBat (http://www.birdsonthebat.org/forumdisplay.php?f=1) which has knowledgeable fans and quite a few, to put it delicately, "quirky" personalities. They have deliberately made the site difficult to find on google, presumably because they don't want to be overrun by new members coming from Cards Talk (the Post-Dispatch message board).

I mostly enjoy the talk there, but I visit other team's boards regularly to get perspective from fans of other teams. This board is very well run and I generally enjoy reading, especially the game threads when the Cards play the Reds.

I'm enjoying the fact that the Cards and Reds have the two best records in the National League, and believe that will be the situation at season's end. It's become quite a good rivalry.

FWIW, I really like this board. The fans here seem to be very knowledgable. If anyone is interested, I read onlybucs.net on a daily basis. It's a well-run, clean site, with very knowledgable Pirates' fans. No fans for other teams post regularly there though, so it might be nice to get some other perspectives.

[Old school 1983]

No excuses...the playoffs ARE a crapshoot. If the best team won the Rangers would have a couple rings and the Yanks would have about 5 more titles.

Not in my opinion. The best regular season teams aren't the best playoff teams sometimes. Like in my opinion, while the reds are an excellent regular season team, and have playoff caliber pitching, their lineup is too hot and cold for playoff success and their manager, while an above average regular season manager is just not the greatest in the playoffs. I think the reds have to do things to make the the team a better playoff type team like getting more team speed, more consistent hitters with a more disciplined approach, and in reality a better tactical manager. I'm not saying they need all if those things but some combo of them would help.

Do I think the regular season has been cheapened by the recent changes in playoff format,yes. This I think is unfair to the best regular season teams who had success all year. But at the same time it is the system the reds play under. That being the case, the best team doesn't always win, but the best PLAYOFF built team does a lot of the time.

[RedlegJake]

If there is a key to being a playoff team it ain't hitting. ITS PITCHING.

[Old school 1983]

If there is a key to being a playoff team it ain't hitting. ITS PITCHING.

Pitching gets you there but being able to prevent runs with defense and being able manufacture runs against great pitching will win it for you just as much as pitching. Its not all pitching. Thats a misconception about the playoffs. You don't win in the playoffs if you can't score against great pitching no matter how good your pitching is zero runs has never won a game. The reds generally this year and with this core of players generally have problems manufacturing runs against great pitching. If they connect for homers they win but if they have to play get em on get em over n get em in they don't fair that well. Also good disciplined hitters will wear a pitcher out faster than free swingers, which the reds have a lot of. For the most part, playoff pitchers are studs. These type of batters wear pitchers out. A fatigued pitcher is more bound to make a mistake or be pulled for a bullpen guy. Speed also kills in the playoffs. Lets use our ever not ready AAA centerfielder as an example. Even if he doesn't start. Say hanigan gets a single in a tie game late. Billy pinch runs steals a base. He easly scores on a single. If he can take third as well it doesnt require a hit.

I'm not arguing that pitching does not play a major role in getting you there. It does and the reds have a playoff caliber rotation and pen, but so does every other team in the playoffs, and your team has to find a way to manufacture runs consistently against that quality of pitching, just as much as your pitchers need to pitch at a high level. The reds have the pitching. I'm not sweating that. They don't have the offense.

[757690]

Not in my opinion. The best regular season teams aren't the best playoff teams sometimes. Like in my opinion, while the reds are an excellent regular season team, and have playoff caliber pitching, their lineup is too hot and cold for playoff success and their manager, while an above average regular season manager is just not the greatest in the playoffs. I think the reds have to do things to make the the team a better playoff type team like getting more team speed, more consistent hitters with a more disciplined approach, and in reality a better tactical manager. I'm not saying they need all if those things but some combo of them would help.

Do I think the regular season has been cheapened by the recent changes in playoff format,yes. This I think is unfair to the best regular season teams who had success all year. But at the same time it is the system the reds play under. That being the case, the best team doesn't always win, but the best PLAYOFF built team does a lot of the time.

For the record, the BRM was considered a great regular season team and a bad post-season team for the first five years... Until they won the World Series in 1975. And they almost lost that one. Had Perez not homered against Bill Lee in the sixth inning of game 7, the BRM would have gone down in history as a failure, and as a terrible playoff team.

During the regular season, I've seen last place teams dominate first place teams in their season series. That doesn't mean the last place team is a better playoff team.

[PuffyPig]

Or having the novel concept of putting high OBP guys at the top of the lineup. Matt Carpenter has scored a ton of runs and Carlos Beltran is arguably the best 2 hole hitter in baseball right now. Not a whole lot of mystery as to why they score runs.

The combined OBA of the Reds #1 and #2 hitters this year is .701, the Cards .687. Add in the #3 guys and it ballons to 1.182 and 1.047, or an average of .394 and .349.

Beltran's OBA is .333, hardly elite.

I guess it's not a mystery why the Reds have scored more runs than the Cards, better OBA guys at the top.

[PuffyPig]

Not in my opinion. The best regular season teams aren't the best playoff teams sometimes. Like in my opinion, while the reds are an excellent regular season team, and have playoff caliber pitching, their lineup is too hot and cold for playoff success and their manager, while an above average regular season manager is just not the greatest in the playoffs. I think the reds have to do things to make the the team a better playoff type team like getting more team speed, more consistent hitters with a more disciplined approach, and in reality a better tactical manager. I'm not saying they need all if those things but some combo of them would help.

Do I think the regular season has been cheapened by the recent changes in playoff format,yes. This I think is unfair to the best regular season teams who had success all year. But at the same time it is the system the reds play under. That being the case, the best team doesn't always win, but the best PLAYOFF built team does a lot of the time.

Why are the best regular season teams sometimes not the best playoff teams?

Small sample size of playoff series. It's that simple.

What makes the "best playoff built team"? I think the one the plays the ebst in the actual playoffs, and likely as much as randomness as anything else.

Anmyone one to argue that the Giants had the best built "playoff team" last year.

The best team in the playoffs usually doesn't win, becuase baseball is such a random game. Even the best team only wins 60% of the time, and that gors dowwn to a little over 50% in the playoffs becuase the teams are pretty equal.

Look at two different teams, one who wins 98 games, and another that wins just 90 games, barely making the playoffs. The 8 game difference over the regular season may seem a lot, but in the 7 game series the 98 win team would be expected to win 4.2 games, the 90 win team 3.9 games. Marginal difference in the playoffs.

Build a team to make the playoffs, then hope it's your time.

[Old school 1983]

For the record, the BRM was considered a great regular season team and a bad post-season team for the first five years... Until they won the World Series in 1975. And they almost lost that one. Had Perez not homered against Bill Lee in the sixth inning of game 7, the BRM would have gone down in history as a failure, and as a terrible playoff team.

During the regular season, I've seen last place teams dominate first place teams in their season series. That doesn't mean the last place team is a better playoff team.

I know that about the BRM. Tony was sitting on that blooper sfter being embarassed in it by Lee earlier. And I never said a last place team would be a good playoff team. You have to have the solid regular season pitching to get you there. Last place teams generally do not have this but for one game yeah bad teams can be great teams, but I think that's why baseball requires 5 or 7 game series' in the playoffs. I wasn't saying pitching wasn't important. I wasn't saying that bad teams could win in the playoffs. I was saying that it just strictly isn't the pitching that wins it for you once you are in. It's definitely a dominating factor to get you there, but once you are in for the most part all of the teams starters are realatively on the same footing unless you have a guy that's a cut above like a Johnson or Gibson. So unless someone lays an egg it'll be realatively even. So it'll come down to your teams ability to be as to score against at least above average pitching, and the quality of the bullpen. So at that point you're going to need tough outs to work the opposing pitchers into making mistakes, and a solid bullpen that can shut down the opposition in the late innings. So I wasn't saying that pitching didnt matter, or that bad teams could be good playoff teams. I was saying a lineups ability to manufacture runs against above average to elite pitching is key in the playoffs as well.

[Old school 1983]

Why are the best regular season teams sometimes not the best playoff teams?

Small sample size of playoff series. It's that simple.

What makes the "best playoff built team"? I think the one the plays the ebst in the actual playoffs, and likely as much as randomness as anything else.

Anmyone one to argue that the Giants had the best built "playoff team" last year.

The best team in the playoffs usually doesn't win, becuase baseball is such a random game. Even the best team only wins 60% of the time, and that gors dowwn to a little over 50% in the playoffs becuase the teams are pretty equal.

Look at two different teams, one who wins 98 games, and another that wins just 90 games, barely making the playoffs. The 8 game difference over the regular season may seem a lot, but in the 7 game series the 98 win team would be expected to win 4.2 games, the 90 win team 3.9 games. Marginal difference in the playoffs.

Build a team to make the playoffs, then hope it's your time.

The reds already have a playoff caliber team. Why not go out at the deadline and make it a better playoff type team on top of it and increase your odds and take down some of the randomness factor. Better players and a better lineup go a long way into stacking the odds in your favor. The amount you do this depends if course on what you can afford to give up in terms if prospects and future considerations. Also maybe some of the randomness could be reduced if the reds didnt start leake in the playoffs or dusty doesnt leave and obviously uncomposed latos in to give up a grand slam. The thinking of oh it's just all randomness once you get in seems like an excuse not to make the team any better at the deadline and increase you chances of winning in the playoffs.

Honestly if the giants didnt go out and increase their chances by acquiring pence and Scutaro, they may not have won in the playoffs. Build a winner. Let the losers talk about luck and randomness

[Old school 1983]

Also to puffy pig....by getting guys who are more likely to give disciplined at bats put the ball in play rather than give weak at bats and K, it'll increase your chances of the luck and randomness going in your favor. No one ever got lucky on a strikeout. But if you put the ball in play anything can happen. Also if you get guys that are disciplined and can work a pitcher, msybe he becomes fatigued and that random event of him hanging one happens sooner or more often to one of your better hitters. Also speed can shift the luck and randomness in your favor. A fast guy is way more likely to get on with a weak squibber type infield hit than a slower guy. And once he is on he can have so much more of the luck and randomness can go in your favor by having a pitcher lose his concentration and hang one or make a wild pitch or steal a base or outrun a force out. Simply put, if you already have a quality level playoff level team like the reds, try to make the necessary moves to shift the randomness of the game in your favor. That's what makes a good playoff team.

[RedlegJake]

Even if the Reds go hog wild and wreck the farm to add Headley AND Fowler, for instance, yes it makes them better now (at quite a cost to future hopes) and they could still get beat in the playoffs. My earlier allusion to the Yankees simply meant in at least 5 seasons they were easily the best overall roster of players and still lost. 2000 they win it all and that was arguably a weaker Yankee team than they had in years they lost in the playoffs.

Build to win the division. That means plenty of good pitching...starters and pen. Add good D and add bats if you can but NOT at the cost of the pitching. Not even prospects...except prospects that are considered 2d tier...not Stephenson type potential aces. Those kind of arms are just too hard to acquire or too expensive in the open market. Wanna better chance in the playoffs? Upgrade pitching. I am more concerned with Marshalls health and Broxtons semi effectiveness than I am the offense.@

[Old school 1983]

Even if the Reds go hog wild and wreck the farm to add Headley AND Fowler, for instance, yes it makes them better now (at quite a cost to future hopes) and they could still get beat in the playoffs. My earlier allusion to the Yankees simply meant in at least 5 seasons they were easily the best overall roster of players and still lost. 2000 they win it all and that was arguably a weaker Yankee team than they had in years they lost in the playoffs.

Build to win the division. That means plenty of good pitching...starters and pen. Add good D and add bats if you can but NOT at the cost of the pitching. Not even prospects...except prospects that are considered 2d tier...not Stephenson type potential aces. Those kind of arms are just too hard to acquire or too expensive in the open market. Wanna better chance in the playoffs? Upgrade pitching. I am more concerned with Marshalls health and Broxtons semi effectiveness than I am the offense.@

I think going hog wild like that is short sided, and no move will guarantee a World Series, even moves for pitching, but some will help more than others. I'd put Stephenson in that untouchable category. He definitely has the potential to be one of those cut above guys. Marshall's injury concerns me. Broxton is giving the reds what I figured broxton would. But really if giving up some pitching meant getting a big bat it should be considered depending on who we are giving up and who We are getting. Hoarding pitching can be a good thing, but at the same time you need bats too, and besides Hamilton, our best prospects are pitchers. Lets hope the reds have good enough talent evaluation to make the cirrect call. Also I don't trade Hamilton. Period. That guy could add something we haven't seen in the game in years with his speed and add a whole new dimension to the reds offense.

[redhat]

Some teams that amass great regular season records with a balanced pitching staff and lineup still might not be great playoff teams.

The 2004 Cards had one great starting pitcher (Chris Carpenter) and four pretty good ones, plus a fearsome offense. They won 105 games in the regular season. Carp couldn't go in the playoffs because of a nerve condition, so we were left with starting the other four. Took seven games to squeak by the Astros and then got swept in the WS by the hot hitting Bosox.

What you generally need to succeed in the playoffs is top line starting pitching. The Giants are a great example of how to build championship teams that way. Their offense is just good enough, they play great defense and their pitching shuts down just about everyone.

[The Brew Crew]

Reminds me of the quote about Bob Gibson. "Gibson is the luckiest pitcher in the game. He only pitches on the days the other team doesn't score any runs."

There is a reason why the Cardinals seem to have the Reds number: it because they are a better team and have a much better fan base.

[mikdavrut]

There is a reason why the Cardinals seem to have the Reds number: it because they are a better team and have a much better fan base.

We have a live one here....don't see you lasting very long.

[Salukifan2]

There is a reason why the Cardinals seem to have the Reds number: it because they are a better team and have a much better fan base.

I'm a cards fan and this may be the most vile post I've ever seen.

I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul

[mikdavrut]

I'm a cards fan and this may be the most vile post I've ever seen.

I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul
You must have missed this genius other post on here tonight.....it was a fake article about how Votto was hurt again and was going on the 60 day DL & how the Brewers were early victims of bad luck and would be winning the division and making the playoffs this season - of course the mods swiftly removed that garbage (as well as the poster I am assuming) :thumbup:

[BluegrassRedleg]

Some teams that amass great regular season records with a balanced pitching staff and lineup still might not be great playoff teams.

The 2004 Cards had one great starting pitcher (Chris Carpenter) and four pretty good ones, plus a fearsome offense. They won 105 games in the regular season. Carp couldn't go in the playoffs because of a nerve condition, so we were left with starting the other four. Took seven games to squeak by the Astros and then got swept in the WS by the hot hitting Bosox.

What you generally need to succeed in the playoffs is top line starting pitching. The Giants are a great example of how to build championship teams that way. Their offense is just good enough, they play great defense and their pitching shuts down just about everyone.

Could not agree more with this post. Well said. Follow the SF path, and we'll eventually break through with some luck.

[mikdavrut]

Could not agree more with this post. Well said. Follow the SF path, and we'll eventually break through with some luck.

While I certainly do think we are built well-enough to make it to the WS/win a WS, I simply wonder, should we make it to the playoffs, if we are one or two poor in-game Dusty-decisions away from ultimately succeeding a la SF?

Don't take that the wrong way, I am NOT a "Dusty hater" by NO means. But despite the fact that he HAS come around a bit, for the most part I find that Dusty does manage using a good degree of "old-school" mentality. And that's not even always a bad thing, but there are certain situations in which a mgr. needs to "adapt" and throw the conventional rule-book out the window.

IMO, Dusty has earned the right to be here this season. We have been more successful during his tenure than we had for a good number of seasons prior. However, IF we do indeed make the playoffs again this year and IF we do not get out of the 1st round, I think, should there be anyone out there whom could be viewed as a possible "upgrade" (I mean, I certainly would not want to settle for just ANYONE to take over the managerial helm), then I think it will be time at that point to cut bait and let Dusty move on.

Heck, for all I or anyone here knows, Dusty might actually feel the exact same way himself (I think it WAS just a *1 Yr.* deal, correct)? Maybe Dusty himself did not want a deal longer than that?

To be honest, I wanted Francona BAD (despite the fact that overall, I quite like Dusty)....doesn't look like that will happen though.

[ajswartz888]

Could not agree more with this post. Well said. Follow the SF path, and we'll eventually break through with some luck.
Or the Cardinals. They have won as may WS as the Giants lately. And are doing very well this year.

[mikdavrut]

Or the Cardinals. They have won as may WS as the Giants lately. And are doing very well this year.

I realize something similar to this gets said likely nearly every season (as of recent seasons, at least), but I truly do think that the Cards will begin regressing to at least some degree relatively soon. With both Westbrook & especially Garcia going down (add Gast to that list now as well), I would think they are BOUND to see at least SOME regression. I realize that their young arms have stepped up and have been doing a great job thus far (Shelby Miller looks fantastic), but it's a long, long season and I just can not help but think that they are due to hit some bumps in the road relatively soon.

Then again, OTOH, that team is like the freakin' little engine that could. Guy goes down, they replace him & said replacement puts up great numbers. Whether one wants to label that as "luck" or they simply bring these young guys up with a very dominant "winning mentality" that said guys are able to translate over into on-field success, I don't know. Honestly, I think it's the latter. Awfully, awfully hard for me to consider much of anything that the Cardinals do as merely "luck" when they seem to be able to replicate these sort of things year after year.

Having said all of that, I DO however, think that we will see at least SOME degree of regression from the winning tear that they have been on thus far this season. We'll see where they stand come the All-Star break. Will also be interesting to see if Chris Carpenter does indeed make a comeback to the bullpen and if so, how well he does. Apparently, his bullpen sessions have looked very good thus far. If he comes back and dominates out of the pen, it certainly will not surprise me. Of course, neither would the opposite.

I think the Cards AND the Pirates are going to hang around and be legit threats for the duration of the season. But if I HAD to make a prediction right now, I predict the Cards will regress just enough for us to move into 1st place by the All-Star break. I honestly feel as though we should win the central yet again this season. And to be completely honest, it would not surprise me in the least if BOTH wildcards were to come out of the central (Cards/Pirates). I know many feel as though they have been hoodwinked by the Pirates for the last 2 seasons and feel as though they are going to end up being essentially "fools gold" for the 3rd season in a row, but I do not. I think they are finally legit and will remain that way over the course of the entire season. I'm not 100% sold (yet) on them making the playoffs, but I DO feel as though they will finally pull off their first .500-plus season since 1992.

[MikeThierry]

I guess I'm not understanding the idea of regression for the Cardinals considering that they've already one of the toughest schedules in baseball and that their schedule becomes a bit easier in terms of strength of teams faced.

[redhat]

Westbrook out for who knows how long and Garcia lost for the season. Sounds awful, no?

But Westbrook has been league average since we got him. He started off great this year, but he tends to do that every year and then fall flat on his face. And Garcia, while he possesses great stuff, is a head case. If the blueberries don't float right on his cereal he's in a bad mood the rest of the day and pitches like crap. If someone makes an error behind him he tends to fall apart. We've seen this year after year from him.

There could be worse things than replacing these guys with hungry, up and coming rookies. The Cards have had seven rookies pitch for them so far. And here are the results in 13 starts and 40 relief appearances: 118 innings pitched, a 12-4 record and a 2.59 ERA. A lot of that is Shelby Miller. But the others have been pretty good too. Seth Maness is a ground ball machine who has induced 6 double plays in a little over 11 innings. Trevor Rosenthal is blowing away hitters with 98-100 mph heat. He throws a changeup - at 90 mph.

They just sent Carlos Martinez back to the minors. Not because he pitched bad. To get him stretched out to start instead of working out of the pen.

In the meantime, it appears likely that Michael Wacha will take Gast's turn in the rotation. I don't know how long he'll last in the majors. They didn't want to bring him up so soon. He'll probably just hold the fort until Martinez is ready to come back and start.

So Garcia is to be replaced by a combination of Gast, Wacha and Martinez. And Westbrook, for as long as he's out, by lefty Tyler Lyons, who was very impressive in his first start.

Another thing to consider. The Cards have amassed their current great W/L record with virtually no production from David Freese, and down years from Matt Holliday and Jon Jay. Freese and Jay have begun to right themselves of late. If Holliday ever gets going, the run production will start to look like we expected it would.

[RedlegJake]

I don't see true regression for the Cards. They won't win at this pace all season but neither will Cincy or Pittsburgh. What this season does is reload the Cards from their deep system which will put the farm on a similar trajectory as the Reds...most of the best prospects next year will be low level guys. Bot deep in players 2-3 years away. The Cards infusion this year will make them younger and less expensive able to pursue a major key piece in the off season. They have hitters that are slumping so far and should get better as hot weather arrives. That should help them negotiate the almost certain regression of their starters (c'mon you really expect a season long starters era under 3?). That pitching regression though is not going to be a tumble off a cliff. Reds fans and Cards fans both need to look at the other and realize both teams are good...both have substitution answers...both have balance with few glaring holes if any. This is fun and its going to be a dogfight all summer long. I just don't see Pitt having enough offensive juice to hang at the top but I see them alone in third...a pesty hornet buzzing around behind the leaders. The Reds better hurry up and improve against SL and Pitt head to head cause that may be the difference.

[mikdavrut]

I guess I'm not understanding the idea of regression for the Cardinals considering that they've already one of the toughest schedules in baseball and that their schedule becomes a bit easier in terms of strength of teams faced.

Well Mike, the truth of the matter is, if I could truly see the future, I wouldn't be posting on RZ right now. I would be out blowing my Powerball lotto fortune(s).

I am simply making a prediction that the pitching will regress to some degree. Same could very well happen to the Reds and cancel out any benefit that the Reds could derive from any such regression by the Cards. And no one knows if or when (heaven forbid) another ugly injury (or injuries) could rear its ugly head to one of (or both) teams?

At the end of the day, that is a large degree of what these forums are essentially based upon. From the most knowledgeable sabermetric stat hound to the more plain-jane fan, none of us truly know how things are going to turn out by seasons end (how boring would THAT be)? Take a handful of the most knowledgeable baseball minds on Earth and I'm not sure a single one of 'em would have predicted in early Sept. of 2011 that the St. Louis Cardinals were not only going to make the playoffs, but also win another World Series.

But that's the fun of it...the reason they play the games. All 162 of them.

[Old school 1983]

I don't see true regression for the Cards. They won't win at this pace all season but neither will Cincy or Pittsburgh. What this season does is reload the Cards from their deep system which will put the farm on a similar trajectory as the Reds...most of the best prospects next year will be low level guys. Bot deep in players 2-3 years away. The Cards infusion this year will make them younger and less expensive able to pursue a major key piece in the off season. They have hitters that are slumping so far and should get better as hot weather arrives. That should help them negotiate the almost certain regression of their starters (c'mon you really expect a season long starters era under 3?). That pitching regression though is not going to be a tumble off a cliff. Reds fans and Cards fans both need to look at the other and realize both teams are good...both have substitution answers...both have balance with few glaring holes if any. This is fun and its going to be a dogfight all summer long. I just don't see Pitt having enough offensive juice to hang at the top but I see them alone in third...a pesty hornet buzzing around behind the leaders. The Reds better hurry up and improve against SL and Pitt head to head cause that may be the difference.

I can't agree more about the improving head to head against St. Louis. It may very well be the difference.

[Tony Cloninger]

Listening to Don out here on Fox Sports LA. He even called them lucky...with "Balls being blooped and falling in all weekend." It was very funny how he even agrees with us. :laugh:

[ajswartz888]

The schedule only gets easier for the Cardinals folks. The Reds have played the Marlins and the Cubs 17 times. The Cards only 2. What comes around goes around.

[757690]

The schedule only gets easier for the Cardinals folks. The Reds have played the Marlins and the Cubs 17 times. The Cards only 2. What comes around goes around.

And the Cards have played 7 more home games than the Reds.

Overall, the Cards have a much easier schedule than the Reds this season.

For Interleague play, the Reds play 7 games against the Rangers and Indians, while the Cards play 7 against the Mariners and KC.

Cards have had a built in 3-6 game advantage every years since Interleague play started since their Interleague rival is KC. Of course the greatest fans in the world never talk about that.

[killcat]

And the Cards have played 7 more home games than the Reds.

As of today Reds have played 26 home games, the Cardinals 22.

[Salukifan2]

And the Cards have played 7 more home games than the Reds.

Overall, the Cards have a much easier schedule than the Reds this season.

For Interleague play, the Reds play 7 games against the Rangers and Indians, while the Cards play 7 against the Mariners and KC.

Cards have had a built in 3-6 game advantage every years since Interleague play started since their Interleague rival is KC. Of course the greatest fans in the world never talk about that.

The data shows the cardinals have had the toughest schedule in baseball so far. You can think in your mind the reds schedule has been harder, but you'll just be lying to yourself.

[757690]

The data shows the cardinals have had the toughest schedule in baseball so far. You can think in your mind the reds schedule has been harder, but you'll just be lying to yourself.

Actually, the data proves that the Reds have had a tougher schedule. Three less games against bad teams, three more games against good teams.

Number of games against these teams; Marlins, Cubs, Mets, Brewers, Dodgers and Padres (the really bad ones):

Cards: 22
Reds 19

Number of games against these teams; Braves, Cards, Reds, Pirates (the really good ones):

Cards: 8
Reds: 11

[ajswartz888]

And the Cards have played 7 more home games than the Reds.

Overall, the Cards have a much easier schedule than the Reds this season.

For Interleague play, the Reds play 7 games against the Rangers and Indians, while the Cards play 7 against the Mariners and KC.

Cards have had a built in 3-6 game advantage every years since Interleague play started since their Interleague rival is KC. Of course the greatest fans in the world never talk about that.

Hmm you must be looking at different information than I am.

[757690]

Hmm you must be looking at different information than I am.

I was looking at data a few days old. My apologies.

Still Reds have overall had a tougher schedule, and it gets tougher for them because of interleague play matchups.

[ajswartz888]

Found it interesting today that the Cardinals played a "road" game but most of the stadium was wearing red. And it wasn't even close. Like a home away from home. Molina homers and drives in 4. Cards win 6-3

[Salukifan2]

Actually, the data proves that the Reds have had a tougher schedule. Three less games against bad teams, three more games against good teams.

Number of games against these teams; Marlins, Cubs, Mets, Brewers, Dodgers and Padres (the really bad ones):

Cards: 22
Reds 19

Number of games against these teams; Braves, Cards, Reds, Pirates (the really good ones):

Cards: 8
Reds: 11

Its funny reading this because you just picked teams so subjectively. You forgot about the really bad LAA who played 3 in Cincy. the cardinals have also played the diamondback and giants on the road already. Cardinals also swept 3 in Washington.

Its funny how you picked the "good" teams

[757690]

Its funny reading this because you just picked teams so subjectively. You forgot about the really bad LAA who played 3 in Cincy. the cardinals have also played the diamondback and giants on the road already. Cardinals also swept 3 in Washington.

Its funny how you picked the "good" teams

I did make a mistske, I shouldn't have included the Padres in the "bad teams."

I based it on record. Bad teams are ten or more games below .500. Good teams are ten or more games above .500.

To be honest, I think the whole "strength of schedule" concept is silly in the middle of the season. Way to many factors to make any accurate conclusions.

What isn't silly, but just plain unfair, is that the Cards clearly have and have always had a significant advantage against other Centepral teams by playing KC in at least two series every year. Add in that they get the Mariners while the Reds get the Rangers, and the Cardinals overall have an easier schedule than the Reds this year.

[Beltway]

Actually, the data proves that the Reds have had a tougher schedule. Three less games against bad teams, three more games against good teams.

Number of games against these teams; Marlins, Cubs, Mets, Brewers, Dodgers and Padres (the really bad ones):

Cards: 22
Reds 19

Number of games against these teams; Braves, Cards, Reds, Pirates (the really good ones):

Cards: 8
Reds: 11
What an interesting way to break down the schedules. That's the epitome of cherry picking and deliberately misleading information. There is only one REALLY bad team in the NL, and that's the Marlins. They're historically bad. No other sub .500 teams compare. The Brewers, Cubs, Mets, and Dodgers are in the next group, then the Padres and Phillies are a little better.

Not counting the World Champion Giants as one of the "really good teams" is idiotic, not to mention the Diamondbacks and Rockies which you left out because they don't suit your argument.

Games against sub .500 teams:
Reds 31 (25-6)
Cardinals 27 (19-8)

Games against .500+ teams:
Reds 20 (7-13)
Cardinals 23 (14-9)

Those numbers include EVERY team, not cherry picked teams to make one team look better or worse based upon personal biases.

[Beltway]

I did make a mistske, I shouldn't have included the Padres in the "bad teams."

I based it on record. Bad teams are ten or more games below .500. Good teams are ten or more games above .500.
Liar. You included the Dodgers and Padres, and neither of those teams are 10+ games below .500.

[757690]

Liar. You included the Dodgers and Padres, and neither of those teams are 10+ games below .500.

Yes. I am a liar. That is exactly what I am. :rolleyes:

[Beltway]

And the Cards have played 7 more home games than the Reds.

Overall, the Cards have a much easier schedule than the Reds this season.

For Interleague play, the Reds play 7 games against the Rangers and Indians, while the Cards play 7 against the Mariners and KC.

Cards have had a built in 3-6 game advantage every years since Interleague play started since their Interleague rival is KC. Of course the greatest fans in the world never talk about that.
This makes no sense. The Cardinals and Reds both play the Rangers and Mariners. The only difference in schedules is Cleveland vs Kansas City. I hate taking the position of "defending" the Cardinals, but when people make posts like you've been making, I'm left with no choice because I care more about truth.

[Beltway]

Yes. I am a liar. That is exactly what I am. :rolleyes:
Yes, where I come from that's called lying.

[757690]

What an interesting way to break down the schedules. That's the epitome of cherry picking and deliberately misleading information. There is only one REALLY bad team in the NL, and that's the Marlins. They're historically bad. No other sub .500 teams compare. The Brewers, Cubs, Mets, and Dodgers are in the next group, then the Padres and Phillies are a little better.

Not counting the World Champion Giants as one of the "really good teams" is idiotic, not to mention the Diamondbacks and Rockies which you left out because they don't suit your argument.

Games against sub .500 teams:
Reds 31 (25-6)
Cardinals 27 (19-8)

Games against .500+ teams:
Reds 20 (7-13)
Cardinals 23 (14-9)

Those numbers include EVERY team, not cherry picked teams to make one team look better or worse based upon personal biases.


Like I said, using records to determine strength of schedule is silly. Just because a team is below .500 right now doesn't mean they will end up below .500 or that they are a bad team.

I actually don't think anyone can claim whose schedule has been the hardest. But I do think that one can argue that overall the Cardinals have a much easier schedule over all than the Reds, for the reasons I stated.

[Beltway]

Like I said, using records to determine strength of schedule is silly. Just because a team is below .500 right now doesn't mean they will end up below .500 or that they are a bad team.

I actually don't think anyone can claim whose schedule has been the hardest. But I do think that one can argue that overall the Cardinals have a much easier schedule over all than the Reds, for the reasons I stated.
1. I made no claims.
2. By arbitrarily leaving out certain teams, you are indirectly claiming that you know how teams will finish. So you're talking out of both sides of your mouth.
3. If your argument involves ignoring data, it's not a good argument.

[757690]

Yes, where I come from that's called lying.

So you know for a fact that I knew that the Dodgers were 8 games below .500 and not 10? You know for sure that I wasn't just sloppy? If you had ever looked at my math tests in school, you might have a different opinion, lol.

Liar is a serious and very personal accusation. Where I come from, we make sure we know someone is a liar before calling them one.

[757690]

1. I made no claims.
2. By arbitrarily leaving out certain teams, you are indirectly claiming that you know how teams will finish. So you're talking out of both sides of your mouth.
3. If your argument involves ignoring data, it's not a good argument.

I know it's not a good argument. I have said so a few times now. I was just giving Cards fans a taste of their own medicine. Showing that data can be manipulated to show whatever you want if you're good at it.

[Beltway]

So you know for a fact that I knew that the Dodgers were 8 games below .500 and not 10? You know for sure that I wasn't just sloppy? If you had ever looked at my math tests in school, you might have a different opinion, lol.

Liar is a serious and very personal accusation. Where I come from, we make sure we know someone is a liar before calling them one.
Ignorance is no excuse.

[757690]

Ignorance is no excuse.

Oh, I'm plenty ignorant. No doubt about that. But I ain't no liar.

[Beltway]

Oh, I'm plenty ignorant. No doubt about that. But I ain't no liar.
If you claim to know something you don't know, you're still a liar. Ignorance is no excuse.

[757690]

If you claim to know something you don't know, you're still a liar. Ignorance is no excuse.

I think you need to learn either the definition of "ignorance" or of "liar" lol

[RedlegJake]

The liar thing is out of line...just saying. That is a personal attack plain and simple and unnecessary. Saying he is wrong and is cherry picking stats is sufficient. Have some respect for fellow posters for crying out loud. Where I hail from being called a liar is a flat offer of a brouhaha.

[Beltway]

The liar thing is out of line...just saying. That is a personal attack plain and simple and unnecessary. Saying he is wrong and is cherry picking stats is sufficient. Have some respect for fellow posters for crying out loud. Where I hail from being called a liar is a flat offer of a brouhaha.
That's an interesting position to take. You think that calling someone who is lying a liar is disrespecting them? And why are feelings even relevant to this discussion? Truth is truth regardless of how it makes you feel.

I don't enjoy getting personal on messageboards like this because it can easily devolve into a flame war, but this behavior seems to be 757690's modus operandi (he has done this in other threads, too). I don't see anyone else pointing it out, so I thought I would. I'm content to let it go, but not for the reasons you mention. Someone who either cannot tell the truth, or is too incompetent or lazy to even know what the truth is, is not worthy of respect. I'm simply not interested in a flame war.

This has probably gone on long enough to already annoy the mods, so I'm out.

[MillerTime58]

Who cares about "strength of schedule". It all washes out after 162.

The Cardinals are only "lucky" in that the schedule has had us play in StL 6 times already and 0 in Cincy. That will be changing shortly.

[mikdavrut]

SOS is not generally something I put a whole lot of thought into, to be honest. I have seen the "bad" teams whip up on the Cardinals, while the Cardinals consistently beat the crap out of the "good" teams certain years. So, as I said, I personally pay little attn. to that kind of thing. But that's just me...

[Swampturkey]

Who cares about "strength of schedule". It all washes out after 162.

The Cardinals are only "lucky" in that the schedule has had us play in StL 6 times already and 0 in Cincy. That will be changing shortly.

Obviously that gives the reds the advantage (best home record)...playing at home, but the Cardinals have the best road record in baseball, so it won't be easy.

[mikdavrut]

Obviously that gives the reds the advantage (best home record)...playing at home, but the Cardinals have the best road record in baseball, so it won't be easy.

Well, lets just hope that the Reds take care of the Cards while playing them AT GABP, thereby taking full advantage of that "best home record". Things keep going the way they are, we're going to need every single win that we can get vs. the Cards head to head.

[MillerTime58]

Well, lets just hope that the Reds take care of the Cards while playing them AT GABP, thereby taking full advantage of that "best home record". Things keep going the way they are, we're going to need every single win that we can get vs. the Cards head to head.Ultimately I still think they will fall back behind us at some point, regardless of how the games in GABP go. But we've been able to sweep them in Cincy in a 3 game series 2 years in a row now, so hopefully we can do it again.

[CardsFanBob]

I'd be shocked if these two teams don't go back and forth all year. They're two of the very best in baseball because of their starting pitching. It's just a shame that both are in the same division. It's also a shame that it's taken this year for people to finally pay attention to the Central. Despite having a few true bottom feeders lately (Cubs & Astros), it's been one of the best divisions year in and year out. There's a reason why we've had the wild card virtually every year.

[MillerTime58]

I'd be shocked if these two teams don't go back and forth all year. They're two of the very best in baseball because of their starting pitching. It's just a shame that both are in the same division. It's also a shame that it's taken this year for people to finally pay attention to the Central. Despite having a few true bottom feeders lately (Cubs & Astros), it's been one of the best divisions year in and year out. There's a reason why we've had the wild card virtually every year.Starting pitching is exactly why I think the Reds will eventually distance themselves. I think our starting pitching is more sustainable. I don't think we'll win by 9 games again, but maybe more like 3-5.

Then again this thing could be neck and neck the whole way to the end, which certainly wouldn't bother me from an entertainment standpoint. However the possibility of a 100 win team not in the playoffs because they lost ONE GAME at the end of the season would be quite a travesty. To me that is a giant flaw with the new 2nd wild card team.

[CardsFanBob]

Starting pitching is exactly why I think the Reds will eventually distance themselves. I think our starting pitching is more sustainable. I don't think we'll win by 9 games again, but maybe more like 3-5.

Then again this thing could be neck and neck the whole way to the end, which certainly wouldn't bother me from an entertainment standpoint. However the possibility of a 100 win team not in the playoffs because they lost ONE GAME at the end of the season would be quite a travesty. To me that is a giant flaw with the new 2nd wild card team.


Yup. Your staffs ability to stay healthy is... Well, ridiculous and probably historic, honestly... at least in this era of baseball. I know Cueto went down for a small stretch, but come on... compared to what the Birds are facing, it's not close.

It's too soon in the season for me to predict who will finish above whom at this point, and if I were a Reds fan, I'd completely feel the same way: At some point the magic is going to dry up in these young starters for the Cardinals....

Regarding the shame of a 95-100 win team losing the one-game playoff and missing the rest of the postseason... yes, it would be a shame. BUT. Let's not forget that was the issue before the wildcard. Some exceptional teams missed the playoffs pretty consistently. I wonder what the record books would look like if they had the Wild Card for 100 years? I'd have to guess that we'd have a number of different World Series winners.