The importance of #2 hitter

[qotsa04]

Choo in front of Cozart(206/233/338): 35/95(Runs/Times Reached Base) *9 of 35 runs are Home runs.
Austin Jackson in front of Tori Hunter(310/350/409): 33/55
Cozart in front of Votto: 21/40
Starling Marte: 33/73 Angel Pergan: 27/55 Dexter Fowler: 29/66
Carl Crawford: 26/58 Nate Mclouth: 32/57 Desmond Jennings: 29/54

Over time, this problem could be fatal for the Reds.

[Vottomatic]

Top teams:

Detroit
#1 spot - Infante - .313 average, .344 OBP
#2 spot - T. Hunter - .310 average, .350 OBP
#3 spot - M. Cabrera - .387 average, .457 OBP

Texas
#1 spot - Andrus - .282 average, .330 (career OBP is .342)
#2 spot - Murphy - .215 average, .272 (but his career OBP is .343)
#3 spot - Berkman - .311 average, .428

Cleveland
1. Bourn - .321, .369 OBP
2. Kipnis - .257, .321
3. Brantley - .301, .357 OBP

Arizona
1. Parra - .320, .385 OBP
2. Gregorius - .387, .424
3. Goldschmidt - .333, .413

Just a few to compare too.

[Old school 1983]

I'm still of the opinion that the 4 hole is the real issue and covering the two spot only masks the major issue, but the 2 spot is an issue and cozart has no business hitting there right now. Idk why dusty continues to run him out there

[Vottomatic]

I'm still of the opinion that the 4 hole is the real issue and covering the two spot only masks the major issue, but the 2 spot is an issue and cozart has no business hitting there right now. Idk why dusty continues to run him out there

I'm not worried about the 4-hole anymore. Phillips is 2nd in the NL with 36 rbi behind Tulowitzki with 37. Pretty impressive.

When Ludwick does come back, it could create a small controversy.

[CardsFanBob]

I'm not worried about the 4-hole anymore. Phillips is 2nd in the NL with 36 rbi behind Tulowitzki with 37. Pretty impressive.

When Ludwick does come back, it could create a small controversy.

That's assuming Ludwick can hit after coming off a shoulder injury. Those shoulder injuries are bad, bad news.

[Alpha Zero]

I'm not worried about the 4-hole anymore. Phillips is 2nd in the NL with 36 rbi behind Tulowitzki with 37. Pretty impressive.

When Ludwick does come back, it could create a small controversy.

I don't really think that the Reds need to pick one or the other. If they get a power guy, Phillips can move back to the 2nd spot in the order. If they get an on base guy, Phillips can handle cleanup adequately. He's not the ideal cleanup hitter, but he does usually put the ball in play and still has 20 HR power. There's no need for Jocketty to paint himself into a corner and go after one or the other. He should survey the field and see what's out there. If he can get a good deal on either one, he should pull the trigger. If not, the Reds will just need to go to war with what they have, which isn't half bad.

[Old school 1983]

I'm not worried about the 4-hole anymore. Phillips is 2nd in the NL with 36 rbi behind Tulowitzki with 37. Pretty impressive.

When Ludwick does come back, it could create a small controversy.

What makes the team better? Add a four hole hitter who pitchers fear more than Phillips and have Phillips bat two or get a two hole hitter and continue Phillips at 4? I think the first makes the team better. That'd be my first option. If that can't be filled within the budget or with trade pieces by all means mask the issue with a two hole hitter. As of right now fix it with an in house solution at least. I think asking Phillips to continue producing runs at his career best pace is a risk. RBI wise he is having a career year. It could normalize at any time. I know choo has a lot up do with it but he is playing above his career norms too.

[Beer&Bourbon]

If we can put someone at 2 that can actually get on base, even a bit of a reduction in production at 4 should lead to more runs at the top of the order. At the least we won't have Cozart always providing that 3rd out to end the inning. If there are 2 outs with Choo on base, I usually assume Cozart will be ending the inning, which is frustrating.

[Vottomatic]

Xavier Paul has an OBP of .400 right now and an average of .270. He should bat 2nd against all righties.

But, but, but..........Dusty won't do the lefty, lefty, lefty thingie. That's Dusty's problem. He should do it anyway.

I really think the Reds should try and acquire Alex Rios from the CWS along with some $$$. His OBP is .366 to go with his .301 average and .920 OPS.

Another guy who might come cheap as a rental is David Dejesus, batting .294 with a .364 OBP. He also plays CF, and Choo could move to LF.

Both Dejesus and Rios are righthanded.

[edabbs44]

Xavier Paul has an OBP of .400 right now and an average of .270. He should bat 2nd against all righties.

But, but, but..........Dusty won't do the lefty, lefty, lefty thingie. That's Dusty's problem. He should do it anyway.

I really think the Reds should try and acquire Alex Rios from the CWS along with some $$$. His OBP is .366 to go with his .301 average and .920 OPS.

Another guy who might come cheap as a rental is David Dejesus, batting .294 with a .364 OBP. He also plays CF, and Choo could move to LF.

Both Dejesus and Rios are righthanded.

Dejesus isn't right handed.

[New York Red]

I'm still of the opinion that the 4 hole is the real issue ...

Yep, BP needs to drive in more runs. He's only on pace for 130 or so. :rolleyes:

[Old school 1983]

Yep, BP needs to drive in more runs. He's only on pace for 130 or so. :rolleyes:

There is more to the game than just numbers. BP is doing an excellent job but the simple fact if the matter is that pitchers and opposing teams do not fear him enough to actually pitch to votto. Maybe they should, his numbers say they should, but off of the stat sheet and in the field of play they do not. Bring in a guy that has a greater opportunity to hit any mistake out if the park in the next pitch and you'll see teams more willing to pitch to votto which will make the entire team better. Plus it'll get Phillips in the 2 spot where he can drive in choo who has been an obp machine.

I was not saying Phillips performance was an issue. You have to look what would improve the team more as a whole. Sure there is a blackhole in the 2 spot. Get a guy who gets on and votto still gets the pitch around and BP drives them in. Get 4 hole hitter BP can produce both RBI and obp from the two spot, if its a guy who is more apt to hurt you with one swing than Phillips, then votto sees more pitches and does more damage, then there is another run producer behind him than can do damage as well. If that guy is a left fielder, then a better obp option at third could be had and increase production too. If the 4 hole guy is a third basemen, then it leaves all kinds of options that help the team. The team would overall be better. No questions asked. Look at the big picture not just individual numbers.

[RedlegJake]

A cleanup hitter pitchers fear enough to pitch to Votto??

Lets see...there may be 3 or 4 guys like that in ALL of baseball....

[Old school 1983]

A cleanup hitter pitchers fear enough to pitch to Votto??

Lets see...there may be 3 or 4 guys like that in ALL of baseball....

Yes I know. But maybe they fear more so than Phillips to make them more apt to pitch to votto. Not straight up thinking we can't walk votto bc of the next guy. It'd get Joey less unintentional intentional walks where he gets pitched around completely. Even if it isn't one of the top notch guys I think it'd get Joey more pitches he can hit rather than ones to take or dump into left. We don't need Miguel Cabrera. Just someone with more power than Phillips and more discipline than Frazier and experience. Hmmm. Sounds a lot like ludwick but unfortunately he's 37 and injured and may never be the same.

If the only thing the reds can do considering all constraints is to get a two hole hitter then by all means do that. I think the first option should be to look into 4 hole hitters that fit that bill. I think they'd have a greater overall impact on the lineup all things considered unless the reds are able to get one of the best two hole hitters in the game.

[boiseheidleberg]

It's very simple and doesn't take a lot of analysis. The number 2 hitter will get more at bats over the course of the season than the number 7 or 8. Who do you want to see at the plate more, Cozart (Isturis) or Paul (Robinson, Lutz). When Ludwick gets back my guess is that his power will take a while longer to return, if at all. I wonder if Dusty would entertain putting him in the no. 2 hole. Of course, that's a long way down the road. IMO the lineup is much better off with Paul getting more abs than Cozart. He can just do so much more with the bat then Zack at this point in his career.

[swaisuc]

A cleanup hitter pitchers fear enough to pitch to Votto??

Lets see...there may be 3 or 4 guys like that in ALL of baseball....

Agree. There is no such thing as protection when you're one of the most feared hitters in the league.

I don't know what to do about the 2 spot. I think it stinks, but I don't see any easy answers so their isn't much point in complaining about it. Paul is a replacement level hitter in the league and I don't see a ton of reasons to think he will excel in the 2 spot. He also sits half the time and I would hate to see #2 become a revolving door. Cozart will likely improve on his stats so far, but by how much? Hannigan is probably best left alone to keep doing what he's doing at 8. Frazier has been slumping and is more of an RBI guy. I don't know.

I just think everyone knows their is a problem. That is the easy part. Are their any real solutions? Not that don't require overhauling the roster a little bit. Is it worth doing that with Ludwick coming back? Probably not.

[Old school 1983]

Agree. There is no such thing as protection when you're one of the most feared hitters in the league.

I don't know what to do about the 2 spot. I think it stinks, but I don't see any easy answers so their isn't much point in complaining about it. Paul is a replacement level hitter in the league and I don't see a ton of reasons to think he will excel in the 2 spot. He also sits half the time and I would hate to see #2 become a revolving door. Cozart will likely improve on his stats so far, but by how much? Hannigan is probably best left alone to keep doing what he's doing at 8. Frazier has been slumping and is more of an RBI guy. I don't know.

I just think everyone knows their is a problem. That is the easy part. Are their any real solutions? Not that don't require overhauling the roster a little bit. Is it worth doing that with Ludwick coming back? Probably not.

If ludwick wasn't 37 and suffering from an injury that may impair his swing and power I'd agree with you. People are going to pitch around votto regardless. If you had a hitter with more power than Phillips and more contact ability and discipline with Frazier, then they are less likely to pitch around him and you get a better fix in the two hole in Phillips than you could get in most trades. Frazier isn't slumping. He has a very poor approach at the plate and its being exploited. He's just not as good as a lot of people thought he was.

[Johnny Fan]

It can't matter alot, our production from the 1 and 2 spot last year was near the bottom of the entire league, yet we win the division and win over 95 games. This year we are getting near nothing from our 2 slot and yet here we are with the second best record in the NL. Alot of worry about nothing I feel...

[Old school 1983]

It can't matter alot, our production from the 1 and 2 spot last year was near the bottom of the entire league, yet we win the division and win over 95 games. This year we are getting near nothing from our 2 slot and yet here we are with the second best record in the NL. Alot of worry about nothing I feel...

In the regular season, you proba ly have a good point. In the playoffs I'd like to have the best players possible in the best position to succeed as possible. I just don't see that with cozart at 2 and Phillips at 4.

[Beer&Bourbon]

It can't matter alot, our production from the 1 and 2 spot last year was near the bottom of the entire league, yet we win the division and win over 95 games. This year we are getting near nothing from our 2 slot and yet here we are with the second best record in the NL. Alot of worry about nothing I feel...

Just because we're doing well doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. Should we not bring guys back from the DL because we've been doing well without them? It's still obviously an issue. Putting someone else in the 2 spot could help us win even more games by increasing production at the top of the order. How often does Choo get on base only to be left there when Cozart strikes out?

[Old school 1983]

Just because we're doing well doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. Should we not bring guys back from the DL because we've been doing well without them? It's still obviously an issue. Putting someone else in the 2 spot could help us win even more games by increasing production at the top of the order. How often does Choo get on base only to be left there when Cozart strikes out?

Very good point.

[Johnny Fan]

Just because we're doing well doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. Should we not bring guys back from the DL because we've been doing well without them? It's still obviously an issue. Putting someone else in the 2 spot could help us win even more games by increasing production at the top of the order. How often does Choo get on base only to be left there when Cozart strikes out?

A) You are assuming we would do better
B) You make no suggestion as to "whom" should be in that spot
C) How can Choo be left there with a Cozart Strike out with still more 2 outs to have to be gotten by the other team?

[Old school 1983]

A) You are assuming we would do better
B) You make no suggestion as to "whom" should be in that spot
C) How can Choo be left there with a Cozart Strike out with still more 2 outs to have to be gotten by the other team?

1) there's a difference between an assumption and an educated prediction. Put a guy with a higher obp there any they should make less outs and provide more runners for Phillips and votto to knock in making the lineup better.

2) Paul could be a fix though I don't like his defense in left full time. Robinson could provide speed and hasn't done half bad in his playing time. Mez has a good approach and above average speed for a catcher. Even a call up of Hamilton could be better than cozart. There are options.

3)I don't think they were referring to leading off the game but in later innings. Say hanigan get on with an out. Pitcher bunts him over 2 outs. Choo gets pitched around bc cozart is an easy out. Three outs.

[qotsa04]

3)I don't think they were referring to leading off the game but in later innings. Say hanigan get on with an out. Pitcher bunts him over 2 outs. Choo gets pitched around bc cozart is an easy out. Three outs.
Already 3 intentional and 3~4 half-intentional walks for Choo

[Johnny Fan]

1) there's a difference between an assumption and an educated prediction. Put a guy with a higher obp there any they should make less outs and provide more runners for Phillips and votto to knock in making the lineup better.

2) Paul could be a fix though I don't like his defense in left full time. Robinson could provide speed and hasn't done half bad in his playing time. Mez has a good approach and above average speed for a catcher. Even a call up of Hamilton could be better than cozart. There are options.

3)I don't think they were referring to leading off the game but in later innings. Say hanigan get on with an out. Pitcher bunts him over 2 outs. Choo gets pitched around bc cozart is an easy out. Three outs.

With little true information there is no way to know if another person lower in the lineup would do better, and right now I don't see anyone down in the order who would be that much better. I also don't think this is a HUGE issue for the reds.

[Old school 1983]

With little true information there is no way to know if another person lower in the lineup would do better, and right now I don't see anyone down in the order who would be that much better. I also don't think this is a HUGE issue for the reds.

For the regular season you can probably get away with it because you play enough subpar teams and pitchers that the rest of the lineup can generally carry you. For the playoffs it's a major issue.

[cincyredway]

With Robinson and cozart batting 1st and 2nd tonite, u can make the argument that the worst two hitters in our lineup are batting in the top two positions, with the exception of leake. But I kind of like Robinson and have said I would like to see him get more time, I just think its funny how those guys r batting 1 and 2.