The use or misuse of the pen

[Johnny Fan]

At this point in the season, for me there is one glaring issue for this team. I just don't care for the way the Reds use their bullpen. I have never liked this idea of "a" pitcher only able to get certain type of hitters out. IF you are not good enough to get out any ML hitter, then I really don't want you on my roster. Also if You are going to bring in a lefty to face a lefty lets say in inning 7, then why not agian if another lefty comes up in inning 8 or 9?

I am baffled at how misused Marshall has been. I see no reason why he is unable to pitch to just lefties, I don't believe his numbers are that bad vs. righties. To see him come in pitch to one batter and leave drives me up the wall. Also, why must Broxton and Chapman be the 8/9 inning guys? IF your top hitters you are going to face are say hitting in the 8th, then why not bring chapman in then? We have a strong bullpen, I just am concerned we are not using it to it's fullest potential.:(

[RedlegJake]

What you're saying is all bullpens are misused. Every ML manager saves his closer for the 9th. Most managers designate a LOOGY. Most have set assignments they vary only they need a night off. I agree with everything you say but actually Dusty is managing the pen pretty much by the current "book". I can't wait til some manager has great success matching pitchers to situations rather than set roles. Then others will follow suit and a new "book" will be written that managers will slavishly follow.

Dusty has a full pen of quality arms...luxury most teams don't have...and starters go deep...so at this point the pen actually suffers too little work but come August that fact will be a huge advantage as other teams pens burn out from the workload.

[Goose]

What you're saying is all bullpens are misused. Every ML manager saves his closer for the 9th. Most managers designate a LOOGY. Most have set assignments they vary only they need a night off. I agree with everything you say but actually Dusty is managing the pen pretty much by the current "book". I can't wait til some manager has great success matching pitchers to situations rather than set roles. Then others will follow suit and a new "book" will be written that managers will slavishly follow.


Yes, I think it shows a complete lack of imagination and a lot of CYA by today's managers.

[lidspinner]

I agree with everything stated....but I have also been saying this for about 10 years now and I have screamed it from every roof top.....not that the Reds or any other team is listening to me......but it all makes sense in what you said.

another feather in the teams caps would be pitchers like Chapman will not get 30-40 saves a year and not be worth the multi year multi million dollar contract he will sign once he bides his time with the Reds....but thats also a knock against said team because agents will tell their star pen pitchers not to sign with that team because they wont add value to the pitchers resume......

nothing will happen until one team decides to do and has great success with it....and I am not talking about winning 1 title...they will need to win multiple world series titles and then and only then will other teams look at trying it....there is nothing I hate more than losing the lead in the 7th or 8th innings when the meat of the opposing order is up and runners are on base with no outs.....thats when you bring in your studs.....

now of course the downside is bringing in Chapman in the 8th inning and he gets us out of a jam and then Broxton blows a save in the 9th....people will eat Dusty up for that so I am not real sure there is a good answer but I would love to see some manager try it....I think it would not only work but i think it would work great

[Johnny Fan]

I agree with everything stated....but I have also been saying this for about 10 years now and I have screamed it from every roof top.....not that the Reds or any other team is listening to me......but it all makes sense in what you said.

another feather in the teams caps would be pitchers like Chapman will not get 30-40 saves a year and not be worth the multi year multi million dollar contract he will sign once he bides his time with the Reds....but thats also a knock against said team because agents will tell their star pen pitchers not to sign with that team because they wont add value to the pitchers resume......

nothing will happen until one team decides to do and has great success with it....and I am not talking about winning 1 title...they will need to win multiple world series titles and then and only then will other teams look at trying it....there is nothing I hate more than losing the lead in the 7th or 8th innings when the meat of the opposing order is up and runners are on base with no outs.....thats when you bring in your studs.....

now of course the downside is bringing in Chapman in the 8th inning and he gets us out of a jam and then Broxton blows a save in the 9th....people will eat Dusty up for that so I am not real sure there is a good answer but I would love to see some manager try it....I think it would not only work but i think it would work great

I am not a Broxton fan at all. I doubt there is anyone in baseball who pitches slower then he does, when he comes in, I change the channel I can't stand watching him pitch. I think overall not one of Walt's better moves. I would never ever consider Broxton for anything but mid inning mop up. Right now I would go with either Hoover or Sam to come in say in the 9th after chappy got the tough outs in the 8th.

[Beltway]

Yes, I think it shows a complete lack of imagination and a lot of CYA by today's managers.
Agreed, the current "formula" is what is expected of managers, despite its wastefulness, and anyone who deviates from that formula leaves himself open to criticism. It's really just a mindless adherence to tradition.

[Rock of Truth]

I wonder if any of this has to do with the power that is wielded by some of the big time agents. They like to go into contract negotiations with "x had 54 saves last year" and use that as a bargaining tool. If their guy is pitching in the 8th, they don't have the luxury. Also, if Chappy throws in the 8th, do you think his agent won't be on the phone with the Reds Brass screaming and yelling? The Reds have every right to hang up on him, but I still sometimes wonder.

The NFL is probably the most popular spectator sport, but MLB players are still the best paid and have guaranteed contracts.

[Vottomatic]

As long as Dusty is the manager, this topic will pop up an infinite amount of times during the season.

Dusty has no clue how to manage a bullpen.

[EMAW]

The Baker bashing is so weird, guys with zero baseball IQ telling a manager with the 17th most wins in baseball HISTORY how to run his team. This blasting is beyond belief, hilarious stuff. Is this a real website or the Onion?

[Old school 1983]

The Baker bashing is so weird, guys with zero baseball IQ telling a manager with the 17th most wins in baseball HISTORY how to run his team. This blasting is beyond belief, hilarious stuff. Is this a real website or the Onion?

And most interestingly 0 world series victories. I don't profess to know more about baseball than dusty. The dude has lived the game but some of his decisions leave others that have as well as myself stretching my head. Overall analysis. Great regular season manager. Can rack to the wins. Poor plsyoff manager and tactician.

[Old school 1983]

Maybe it's a bit off topic here but I don't understand the line of thinking on RZ that bullpen pitchers namely the closer are not important. It seems that everything based on the closer argument is that so and so can get as many saves, when in the articles that people point to the save is shown as the flawed stat. How you you use a flawed stat to prove one player equal to another? I also don't get the line of thinking that since we aren't getting maximum value from chapman because he isn't a starter, which in itself is a major assumption, that we should trade him. Does anyone consider that maybe be has a greater value to this team as the closer than the player they'd bring in? Losing him would, IMO, ruin the back of the bullpen especially with dusty managing. Do we want ondrusek and Simon deciding games or chapman and broxton?

I know the broxton contract was a bit of an overpay but you know what it playoffizes our BP from the word go. We have a shut down 7th 8th and 9th inning in a tight game. Given the quality of our starters a playoff game could be over after we score a run. That's huge. I think RZ completely underrated relievers. Average relievers are easy to replace, but great ones can be a deciding factor.

[Vottomatic]

The Baker bashing is so weird, guys with zero baseball IQ telling a manager with the 17th most wins in baseball HISTORY how to run his team. This blasting is beyond belief, hilarious stuff. Is this a real website or the Onion?

It depends on what aspect of baseball you're claiming Dusty knows more about.

Clearly any fan has more strategical knowledge than Dusty. As long as Cozart and Izturis continue to bat second, Dusty's knowledge of the game deserves to be questioned.

[Don Cameron]

Dusty is a player's manager--and the player's have clear and defined roles and jobs. There is no confusion in what is expected from them.

Dusty is comfortable with his position in baseball history, and I would dare say is loved and respected in his clubhouse and former clubhouses.

He believes in his players, and sometimes to a fault. But in a game of failure--you need a manager like Baker.

Don Cameron
Quite simply, the world's sexiest man

[RedlegJake]

To the bullpen question. The aggregate bullpen is a huge factor. You have to have a good group of guys. The closer is overvalued because of the way they are handled. If the bedt was used in highly leveraged spots instead of only with a lead of 3 or less and only in the 9th...then they would have more value. Most good relievers can match the league's save percentage average. Except in years like Gagne once had almost all closers save games at near the average. Chapman is not better than that percentage wise. The odds of a team scoring in any single inning is not high. Any good reliever should be able to get the last 3 outs. Bullpens themselves are important but individual relievers are not. Its a weird dichotomy.

I agree Baker is weakest as a manager in single games or series. But if players perform as expected that can limit the strategic role of the manager.

I disagree defense is not good enough to be a good playoff team. As good or better defenders are available for defensive switches at most positions and even Choo and Frazier are not defensive liabilities. Frazier needs to pick up his hitting but he is an average 3b compared to the league. I'd call 3b neither a strength particularly nor a liability. Choo is playing better in CF as the season goes on.

Winning the playoffs and series is NOT who is best but who gets hot at the right time. Let Walt work. Right now any trade for a solid RH bat is going to cost a lot more than deadline deal because almost every team still has a shot. The really bad teams have so many needs any good player they trade at this point will cost a King's ransom. Near the deadline they'll be more reasonable.

[Johnny Fan]

Dusty is a player's manager--and the player's have clear and defined roles and jobs. There is no confusion in what is expected from them.

Dusty is comfortable with his position in baseball history, and I would dare say is loved and respected in his clubhouse and former clubhouses.

He believes in his players, and sometimes to a fault. But in a game of failure--you need a manager like Baker.

Don Cameron
Quite simply, the world's sexiest man

My issue with Baker is he is managing like this was the 70/80's. He can't think out of the box at all and try different things. Marshall is the lefty specialist and that is all. Chapman only pitches the 9th inning and if it's a save situation. To me with all the tools he has down in the pen, there is zero excuse for the pen to ever blow a game. There is way to much talent there for that to happen. Sure pitchers have bad games, but we have options that shouldn't be tied into set rules.

[Old school 1983]

To the bullpen question. The aggregate bullpen is a huge factor. You have to have a good group of guys. The closer is overvalued because of the way they are handled. If the bedt was used in highly leveraged spots instead of only with a lead of 3 or less and only in the 9th...then they would have more value. Most good relievers can match the league's save percentage average. Except in years like Gagne once had almost all closers save games at near the average. Chapman is not better than that percentage wise. The odds of a team scoring in any single inning is not high. Any good reliever should be able to get the last 3 outs. Bullpens themselves are important but individual relievers are not. Its a weird dichotomy.

I agree Baker is weakest as a manager in single games or series. But if players perform as expected that can limit the strategic role of the manager.

I disagree defense is not good enough to be a good playoff team. As good or better defenders are available for defensive switches at most positions and even Choo and Frazier are not defensive liabilities. Frazier needs to pick up his hitting but he is an average 3b compared to the league. I'd call 3b neither a strength particularly nor a liability. Choo is playing better in CF as the season goes on.

Winning the playoffs and series is NOT who is best but who gets hot at the right time. Let Walt work. Right now any trade for a solid RH bat is going to cost a lot more than deadline deal because almost every team still has a shot. The really bad teams have so many needs any good player they trade at this point will cost a King's ransom. Near the deadline they'll be more reasonable.

Good reasoning on all counts. I see chapman being value able because he helps to setup the BP as a group and sets up a nasty boys type situation with Marshall and broxton.

[Old school 1983]

My issue with Baker is he is managing like this was the 70/80's. He can't think out of the box at all and try different things. Marshall is the lefty specialist and that is all. Chapman only pitches the 9th inning and if it's a save situation. To me with all the tools he has down in the pen, there is zero excuse for the pen to ever blow a game. There is way to much talent there for that to happen. Sure pitchers have bad games, but we have options that shouldn't be tied into set rules.

With the talent in the pen and that it is full of former or potential closers I agree that we shouldn't be tied to a set of rules.

[Don Cameron]

Did you watch baseball in the 1970's and 1980's????

If so, Baker would be using Chapman like Gossage, Sutter, Lee Smith, Sparky Lyle.... look at those innings.

Don Cameron
Look to the stars

[Old school 1983]

Did you watch baseball in the 1970's and 1980's????

If so, Baker would be using Chapman like Gossage, Sutter, Lee Smith, Sparky Lyle.... look at those innings.

Don Cameron
Look to the stars

If we have two closers at the end of the pen in broxton and chapman, use the better of the two, chapman, in the higher leverage situation. Lou did that with the nasty boys in 1990

[dwyerbrg]

If we have two closers at the end of the pen in broxton and chapman, use the better of the two, chapman, in the higher leverage situation. Lou did that with the nasty boys in 1990

Yes, but the closer wasn't the money man then that it is now. Agents would be screaming...players are more numbers oriented, and Baker being a players' manager wants his guys to get their numbers, their milestones. That's where the league is screwed up.

As soon as Baker started using Chapman in the highest leveraged situation in the 7th-9th innings, there would be screaming about Chapman being demoted. The good free agent bullpen arms wouldn't want to come here because Dusty doesn't set roles for them. Think about it, Chapman pitches to the 3-4-5 batters in the 8th and Simon pitches to 6-7-8 hitters in the 9th...makes sense, but Chapman is going to be upset, his agent will be upset, Simon might put too much pressure on himself, articles will be written, questions will be asked. Dusty goes from being a players' manager to one who upsets his players.

Dusty's not going to be the man to break the mold...who is? I have no idea. It's more of a CYA move to go by the book and point out that the pitcher just didn't perform when the opportunity was provided than to write a new book. Same thing with an NFL head coach who punts in the 4th quarter of a 21 point game...why...so he doesn't have to answer questions and he can point out that his team's biggest loss was ONLY 21. CYA moments...sports are full of them.

[PuffyPig]

To me with all the tools he has down in the pen, there is zero excuse for the pen to ever blow a game.

You may want to re-consider that sentence.

You are essentially saying the bullpen should never give up a run.

[Johnny Fan]

You may want to re-consider that sentence.

You are essentially saying the bullpen should never give up a run.

No, not blow a save, HUGE difference

[Old school 1983]

Yes, but the closer wasn't the money man then that it is now. Agents would be screaming...players are more numbers oriented, and Baker being a players' manager wants his guys to get their numbers, their milestones. That's where the league is screwed up.

As soon as Baker started using Chapman in the highest leveraged situation in the 7th-9th innings, there would be screaming about Chapman being demoted. The good free agent bullpen arms wouldn't want to come here because Dusty doesn't set roles for them. Think about it, Chapman pitches to the 3-4-5 batters in the 8th and Simon pitches to 6-7-8 hitters in the 9th...makes sense, but Chapman is going to be upset, his agent will be upset, Simon might put too much pressure on himself, articles will be written, questions will be asked. Dusty goes from being a players' manager to one who upsets his players.

Dusty's not going to be the man to break the mold...who is? I have no idea. It's more of a CYA move to go by the book and point out that the pitcher just didn't perform when the opportunity was provided than to write a new book. Same thing with an NFL head coach who punts in the 4th quarter of a 21 point game...why...so he doesn't have to answer questions and he can point out that his team's biggest loss was ONLY 21. CYA moments...sports are full of them.

I see your reasoning. That's why I like the pen his it's setup even if it meant a large contract and a guy who many feel is out of place. It has a closer in any late inning situation even if it isn't the star one.

[PuffyPig]

No, not blow a save, HUGE difference

If a bullpen can give up a run, they can blow a save.

A team will often have a 1 run lead after 5 innings. You're suggesting that would have to be perfect for 4 innings in that situation.

To be guaranteed to not blow a save, a bullpen would have to be perfect.

[Old school 1983]

If a bullpen can give up a run, they can blow a save.

A team will often have a 1 run lead after 5 innings. You're suggesting that would have to be perfect for 4 innings in that situation.

To be guaranteed to not blow a save, a bullpen would have to be perfect.

I'm not defending the guy who said that the reds BP shouldn't blow a save all year. That's pretty far fetched considering the length of the season and the nature of the game. But to say that a bullpen would have to be perfect to guarantee not blowing a save is off the mark too. Sure it is in the one situation you mentioned but that doesn't mean it applies to all situations. There are plenty of save situations that don't require perfect innings and if the reds deal chapman like a lot of posters on here suggest, especially with marshall injury, we better hope that most of the save opportunities are ones where runs can be given up.

[Don Cameron]

If we have two closers at the end of the pen in broxton and chapman, use the better of the two, chapman, in the higher leverage situation. Lou did that with the nasty boys in 1990

I assume you have been watching the 2013 Cincinnati Reds. Broxton is not closer material this year, and really has not been since his early days with the Dodgers. His 2012 Royals performance should be looked at with a grain of salt--it was a contract year and he was closing for a team with no chance to win. NO PRESSURE. When he comes in the eighth inning, it is a Cordero/Stormy Weathers like ride.

I want a person at the end of the game that strikes fear into the hearts of the hitters, and that person is Aroldis Chapman. Will he get CHEAP saves? OF COURSE. But, the opponent's and more importantly the OPPONENTS managers, know they are managing an eight inning game with Chapman at the back of the pen. The Yankees have had that luxury for roughly fifteen years. They have the best reliever in the history of the game. It has worked for them.

Don Cameron
Once Bitten, Twice Shy, babe.