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RedsfaninMO
05-22-2013, 04:33 PM
I'm not sure the Reds could withstand the loss of Chapman. I'm also not sure the Cards have a player that is as good as any of the top 5 Reds players, so an injury to any one player wouldn't hurt them as much. With the Pirates, it's AM. The Reds are going to run away with this thing, now winning on the road and beating the unbeatable Harvey. The Brewers and Cubs, who cares.

SpiritofStLouis
05-22-2013, 04:39 PM
I'm not sure the Reds could withstand the loss of Chapman. I'm also not sure the Cards have a player that is as good as any of the top 5 Reds players, so an injury to any one player wouldn't hurt them as much. With the Pirates, it's AM. The Reds are going to run away with this thing, now winning on the road and beating the unbeatable Harvey. The Brewers and Cubs, who cares.

If the Cardinals lost Yadi, they'd end up in 4th place.

While you're at it, pass that bad boy this way. ;)

RedsfaninMO
05-22-2013, 04:42 PM
If the Cardinals lost Yadi, they'd end up in 4th place.

While you're at it, pass that bad boy this way. ;)

He may be the most overrated player in baseball, but besides that, yeah, he's ok.

He's a singles hitter who has above average defense, but he's no where close to what Cardinal fans would have you believe. I watch him all the time, and he's very overrated. He may be the 5th or 6th best catcher in the NL.

TDogg
05-22-2013, 04:56 PM
I'll let that go since this is a Reds board and I'm a guest here.

I'll leave the discussion of Yadier Molina to real baseball people. I have watched the Cards fill holes from within for the last few seasons now. I don't remember the last time I heard any discussion from our folks about our catchers on the farm. That is how important Yadi is to this team.

SpiritofStLouis
05-22-2013, 05:02 PM
He may be the most overrated player in baseball, but besides that, yeah, he's ok.

He's a singles hitter who has above average defense, but he's no where close to what Cardinal fans would have you believe. I watch him all the time, and he's very overrated. He may be the 5th or 6th best catcher in the NL.

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo133/spiritofstlouis/spiritofstlouis%20II/computer-anspucken-lachen.gif (http://s369.photobucket.com/user/spiritofstlouis/media/spiritofstlouis%20II/computer-anspucken-lachen.gif.html)

Old school 1983
05-22-2013, 05:06 PM
He may be the most overrated player in baseball, but besides that, yeah, he's ok.

He's a singles hitter who has above average defense, but he's no where close to what Cardinal fans would have you believe. I watch him all the time, and he's very overrated. He may be the 5th or 6th best catcher in the NL.

I can't stand yaddy, but the guy is an excellent defensive catcher who at least against the reds rakes in clutch situations. Who do you have rated above him not named buster posey?

RedsfaninMO
05-22-2013, 05:27 PM
I can't stand yaddy, but the guy is an excellent defensive catcher who at least against the reds rakes in clutch situations. Who do you have rated above him not named buster posey?

Will Rosario, Brian McCann, Miguel Montero, John Buck and Hanigan. LuCroy or Russell Martin might be the 6th and 7th best, tossup between them and Molina. The guy is overrated, plain and simple. It's funny out here, he gets all the credit for the job of the starting pitching, but yet gets none of the blame for the bullpen. It he was as good as he's made out to be, the Cards wouldn't have bullpen problems. Miller was good before he got to St. Louis. So was Westbrook. Lynn was also good and Wainwright came from the Braves system and was around 3 HOF's, so Molina can't claim him either.

Anyway, it will be a two team race between the Pirates and Reds. Molina won't be able to do anything to help Jon Gast or this Tyler Lions kid. Mujica is smoke and mirrors. I think the Pirates are our biggest threat.

Johnny Fan
05-22-2013, 05:27 PM
I'm not sure the Reds could withstand the loss of Chapman. I'm also not sure the Cards have a player that is as good as any of the top 5 Reds players, so an injury to any one player wouldn't hurt them as much. With the Pirates, it's AM. The Reds are going to run away with this thing, now winning on the road and beating the unbeatable Harvey. The Brewers and Cubs, who cares.

Chapman for the most part is a non factor for the Reds this year so far. There are 3-4 other pitchers in the pen that could do what he has done so far and maybe better. Right now the most important player this team can't lose is Phillips. His defense, hustle and such and no other option at second is the man.

RedsfaninMO
05-22-2013, 05:41 PM
Chapman for the most part is a non factor for the Reds this year so far. There are 3-4 other pitchers in the pen that could do what he has done so far and maybe better. Right now the most important player this team can't lose is Phillips. His defense, hustle and such and no other option at second is the man.

I think you're making light of how good shutdown closers are. Chapman has the chance to be Mariano Rivera special, and no other team has a closer that can say that. Just keep him away from pastries and he'll be fine. :)

I love Phillips and yes the Reds would be in trouble without him, but I don't have a lot of faith in anyone else to do what Chapman is doing. Walt can always trade Cingrani for a position player if someone gets hurt, and now his value is even higher. But again, this is what I'm saying about the Reds. Choo, Phillips, Votto, Bruce, Chapman, Cueto and Latos are better than any player the Cards have.

The Cards farm system is also down to nothing now, so they have no help going forward. They keep talking about this kid Wacha, but nothing about him stands out. The Cards were stupid not to trade Tavares from Profar. Kozma is a .230 hitter in the minors and will be in the majors. They have no speed. I could go on and on, but I'm really sick of the hype and having them on the cover of SI today made my blood boil.

Mastodon
05-22-2013, 05:42 PM
Chapman for the most part is a non factor for the Reds this year so far. There are 3-4 other pitchers in the pen that could do what he has done so far and maybe better. Right now the most important player this team can't lose is Phillips. His defense, hustle and such and no other option at second is the man.

Have to agree on you about Philips. He's our best glove and he anchors the infield like no other 2B in the league right now. he really puts teams in a tough spot with his clutch hitting so far too. They can't exactly pitch around Votto because they end up facing the NL leader in RBIs with Votto on base.

On a side note, Molina is great and only Buster Posey can be mentioned in the same ranks of him in the NL.

Goose1701
05-22-2013, 06:05 PM
Chapman is a relief pitcher(sigh). The Reds can afford to lose him more than alot of people.

Phillips is up on the list of people we can't afford to lose. I'd say Votto obviously tops that list, but Phillips and Choo are right there.

And as far as Molina goes, he's the best defensive catcher in the game who has turned himself into a good hitter the last 3 years. He's an awesome player, who I really wish was not a Cardinal.

Beltway
05-22-2013, 06:15 PM
I'm not sure the Reds could withstand the loss of Chapman. I'm also not sure the Cards have a player that is as good as any of the top 5 Reds players, so an injury to any one player wouldn't hurt them as much. With the Pirates, it's AM. The Reds are going to run away with this thing, now winning on the road and beating the unbeatable Harvey. The Brewers and Cubs, who cares.
1. Closer might be the most overrated "position" in MLB.
2. Phillips is the MVP of this team, not Chapman. Votto has the most potential.
3. I think you're underrating the Cardinals. Votto and Choo are better than any players on the Cardinals, but Holliday, Beltran, Molina, and Craig are very good (but not great) players, and at least as good as any other position players the Reds have (Phillips is their equal and Bruce is close, but too streaky).
4. The Pirates will fade by the end of the season. They're probably better this year than last, but if they finish above .500, it won't be by much (85 wins at most).
5. Harvey is overrated. He's a good pitcher, but today was the first time he has faced a good offense all season. He had gotten lucky to not have to face good hitting teams (he missed Colorado, Atlanta, and St. Louis). He also has an unsustainably low BABIP (.199).

Vottomatic
05-22-2013, 06:17 PM
Yadier shows up against the Reds like Brandon shows up against the Cardinals.

Yadier is probably one of the top 3 catchers in the game right now.

But I heard Larussa actually say, and I'm guessing he was drunk when he was quoted, that Molina was better than Bench. Which just reaffirms that TLR is .......

UC_Ken
05-22-2013, 06:22 PM
Our most important player is Joey Votto, end of discussion. We have rotation depth, bullpen depth, what we don't have is anyone else who can get on base 45% of the time and OPS near 1.000. Aside from maybe Choo we don't even have another batter capable of OPSing .900.

I know we went on a hot streak without him last year but over the course of a season I don't see it being sustainable.

As for St. Louis given Garcias injury I'd say Wainright is their most important player. Their young pitchers are talented but they need the veteran anchor in their rotation.

SpiritofStLouis
05-22-2013, 10:02 PM
Will Rosario, Brian McCann, Miguel Montero, John Buck and Hanigan. LuCroy or Russell Martin might be the 6th and 7th best, tossup between them and Molina. The guy is overrated, plain and simple. It's funny out here, he gets all the credit for the job of the starting pitching, but yet gets none of the blame for the bullpen. It he was as good as he's made out to be, the Cards wouldn't have bullpen problems. Miller was good before he got to St. Louis. So was Westbrook. Lynn was also good and Wainwright came from the Braves system and was around 3 HOF's, so Molina can't claim him either.

Anyway, it will be a two team race between the Pirates and Reds. Molina won't be able to do anything to help Jon Gast or this Tyler Lions kid. Mujica is smoke and mirrors. I think the Pirates are our biggest threat.

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4579814869960033&pid=1.7&w=261&h=130&c=7&rs=1

Old school 1983
05-22-2013, 10:15 PM
Will Rosario, Brian McCann, Miguel Montero, John Buck and Hanigan. LuCroy or Russell Martin might be the 6th and 7th best, tossup between them and Molina. The guy is overrated, plain and simple. It's funny out here, he gets all the credit for the job of the starting pitching, but yet gets none of the blame for the bullpen. It he was as good as he's made out to be, the Cards wouldn't have bullpen problems. Miller was good before he got to St. Louis. So was Westbrook. Lynn was also good and Wainwright came from the Braves system and was around 3 HOF's, so Molina can't claim him either.

Anyway, it will be a two team race between the Pirates and Reds. Molina won't be able to do anything to help Jon Gast or this Tyler Lions kid. Mujica is smoke and mirrors. I think the Pirates are our biggest threat.

I take yaddy over all of them except maybe mc cann when he is not injured. Buck will slow down offensively. Yaddy has it defensively over all of them with hanny being the closest. It pains me to say this but it's true. :/

Old school 1983
05-22-2013, 10:17 PM
Yadier shows up against the Reds like Brandon shows up against the Cardinals.

Yadier is probably one of the top 3 catchers in the game right now.

But I heard Larussa actually say, and I'm guessing he was drunk when he was quoted, that Molina was better than Bench. Which just reaffirms that TLR is .......

.....fill in with words that'd get us banned from RZ

CySeymour
05-22-2013, 10:18 PM
He may be the most overrated player in baseball, but besides that, yeah, he's ok.

He's a singles hitter who has above average defense, but he's no where close to what Cardinal fans would have you believe. I watch him all the time, and he's very overrated. He may be the 5th or 6th best catcher in the NL.

Care to back any of that up with some data?

ajswartz888
05-23-2013, 09:20 AM
I'm not sure the Reds could withstand the loss of Chapman. I'm also not sure the Cards have a player that is as good as any of the top 5 Reds players, so an injury to any one player wouldn't hurt them as much. With the Pirates, it's AM. The Reds are going to run away with this thing, now winning on the road and beating the unbeatable Harvey. The Brewers and Cubs, who cares.
Funniest thing I've read today.

ajswartz888
05-23-2013, 09:27 AM
He may be the most overrated player in baseball, but besides that, yeah, he's ok.

He's a singles hitter who has above average defense, but he's no where close to what Cardinal fans would have you believe. I watch him all the time, and he's very overrated. He may be the 5th or 6th best catcher in the NL.
A singles hitter that hit 22 HR's last year. And has won 5 straight gold gloves and the 1st 2 platinum gloves to ever be awarded. But yeah he's over rated. I'm sure the Reds would not take him. Whatever you're smoking, pass it around man. That's some great stuff. LOL Oh yeah, I forgot, Yadi also has 2 World Series rings if one of the Reds catchers, or anyone else on the Reds for that matter, wants to see them. You know, just to see what they actually look like.:beerme:

ajswartz888
05-23-2013, 09:38 AM
Will Rosario, Brian McCann, Miguel Montero, John Buck and Hanigan. LuCroy or Russell Martin might be the 6th and 7th best, tossup between them and Molina. The guy is overrated, plain and simple. It's funny out here, he gets all the credit for the job of the starting pitching, but yet gets none of the blame for the bullpen. It he was as good as he's made out to be, the Cards wouldn't have bullpen problems. Miller was good before he got to St. Louis. So was Westbrook. Lynn was also good and Wainwright came from the Braves system and was around 3 HOF's, so Molina can't claim him either.

Anyway, it will be a two team race between the Pirates and Reds. Molina won't be able to do anything to help Jon Gast or this Tyler Lions kid. Mujica is smoke and mirrors. I think the Pirates are our biggest threat.

You mean the .189 hitting Miguel Montero? And the .161 hitting Ryan Hanigan? And the .224 hitting John Buck. Good stuff. :lol: Keep hating man. This is hilarious. Jealousy is a mother they say.

Johnny Fan
05-23-2013, 09:39 AM
I think you're making light of how good shutdown closers are. Chapman has the chance to be Mariano Rivera special, and no other team has a closer that can say that. Just keep him away from pastries and he'll be fine. :)

I love Phillips and yes the Reds would be in trouble without him, but I don't have a lot of faith in anyone else to do what Chapman is doing. Walt can always trade Cingrani for a position player if someone gets hurt, and now his value is even higher. But again, this is what I'm saying about the Reds. Choo, Phillips, Votto, Bruce, Chapman, Cueto and Latos are better than any player the Cards have.

The Cards farm system is also down to nothing now, so they have no help going forward. They keep talking about this kid Wacha, but nothing about him stands out. The Cards were stupid not to trade Tavares from Profar. Kozma is a .230 hitter in the minors and will be in the majors. They have no speed. I could go on and on, but I'm really sick of the hype and having them on the cover of SI today made my blood boil.

Closers are dime a dozen, just look around the league. On our team alone we have at least 2-3 guys who could do just as well as Chapman has done numbers wise while a Red. Chapman is a one trick pony, he is a thrower, not a pitcher and until he "masters" the ability to actually pitch he really isn't anything special. Right now I would much prefer seeing either Lecure or even Hoover closing.

Johnny Fan
05-23-2013, 09:59 AM
Chapman is a relief pitcher(sigh). The Reds can afford to lose him more than alot of people.

Phillips is up on the list of people we can't afford to lose. I'd say Votto obviously tops that list, but Phillips and Choo are right there.

And as far as Molina goes, he's the best defensive catcher in the game who has turned himself into a good hitter the last 3 years. He's an awesome player, who I really wish was not a Cardinal.

I think the team proved last year that while he is a HUGE part of this team, his loss (Voto) isn't as horrible as we might have thought.

SpiritofStLouis
05-23-2013, 10:02 AM
I think you're making light of how good shutdown closers are. Chapman has the chance to be Mariano Rivera special, and no other team has a closer that can say that. Just keep him away from pastries and he'll be fine. :)

I love Phillips and yes the Reds would be in trouble without him, but I don't have a lot of faith in anyone else to do what Chapman is doing. Walt can always trade Cingrani for a position player if someone gets hurt, and now his value is even higher. But again, this is what I'm saying about the Reds. Choo, Phillips, Votto, Bruce, Chapman, Cueto and Latos are better than any player the Cards have.

The Cards farm system is also down to nothing now, so they have no help going forward. They keep talking about this kid Wacha, but nothing about him stands out. The Cards were stupid not to trade Tavares from Profar. Kozma is a .230 hitter in the minors and will be in the majors. They have no speed. I could go on and on, but I'm really sick of the hype and having them on the cover of SI today made my blood boil.

I truly believe that you're allowing your blind hatred to cloud your judgement. That sort of thinking will take years off your life, it's not healthy.

Although your observations in this thread clearly exhibit signs of delusional thinking, I have to believe that when your head hits the pillow, you really don't believe the opinions you are espousing.

For the most part, the posters in this forum are quite knowledgeable, and are probably chagrined at your unrealistic portrayal of the Reds' divisional rival. There is a big difference between rational discourse among baseball fans and nonsensical rants by fanatical zealots.

There is also a big difference between being optimistic and acting delusional. Relax and enjoy the summer, it's going to be a spirited pennant race among very good teams.

As for angst that you encountering in the workplace, I suggest you learn to deal with it. I'm sure it's something you have lived with for some time, being that you are in the bosom of the enemy.

Let it go before it begins to affect your work. Nobody likes too much salt on their french fries. ;)

RedlegJake
05-23-2013, 01:41 PM
Congratulations RFinMO. You managed to make half a dozen of the silliest statements I've seen on RZ all in a single thread. Chapman is the player the Reds could least afford to lose. Molina is only the 6th or 7th best catcher in the league. The Cards farm dystem (ranked 1st in ALL of baseball) is empty. No Cardinal is equal to the Reds 5 best players. The race is going to be a runaway and the only team we need worry about is the Pirates. No other team has a closer like Chapman....dialing Atlanta's bullpen..."uh that closer you got.....he's no good...just letting ya know". BTW Chapman's save% is really pedestrian for the best closer in baseball.

SoSL is right. You are letting hate cloud your judgement. Hopefully you really aren't as baseball dumb as this thread makes you look.

MikeThierry
05-23-2013, 04:28 PM
Wow... this might actually go in the books as the goofiest thread in the history of the Reds Zone. Yadier Molina overrated? He's probably going to go down in the history of the game as the third best defensive catcher behind Ivan Rodriguez and Bench if he keeps up his current production. He's won the Fielding Bible something like 4 or 5 times (which look into advanced stats and isn't biased by personal opinion). Not to mention that he catches the most innings of any catcher in baseball on a yearly basis. He's on pace for 1200+ innings this year at the catchers position.

EDIT: I also laughed when he said Westbrook was good before he came to St. Louis.

MikeThierry
05-23-2013, 04:33 PM
Oh and lets not forget that the Cardinals farm system is down to nothing even though they have the #3 prospect in baseball and the best 2B prospect in the minors now that Gyorko is up. Nope, that's nothing at all....

Johnny Fan
05-23-2013, 04:38 PM
Reds fans would love having Yolina behind the plate, they just don't like he is a Card...

RedsfaninMO
05-23-2013, 05:00 PM
Oh and lets not forget that the Cardinals farm system is down to nothing even though they have the #3 prospect in baseball and the best 2B prospect in the minors now that Gyorko is up. Nope, that's nothing at all....


Once you guys have to use up Tavares, Wong and Wacha you will have nothing. I'm surprised so fan Reds fans on here think Molina is that good. I live here, watch a lot of Cards games and can tell you he is way overrated. I'm not sure how it got started nationally, but he does nothing mind blowing on defense. He's had 1 good power year, that's it, and has 2 HR's only this year.

The Cards don't have the depth or arms to hang with the Reds, and I'll happily be back in September when the Cards have fallen in 3rd place. Wainwright, Miller and Lynn won't be enough in the rotation.

Meanwhile, the Reds continue to win and the Cards can't pull away. With Cueto back, it's all over. Walt will trade for another bat and it won't be close. Eat my words I will not, and I have a feeling Cards fans won't be posting on a Reds board 2 months from now because there will be nothing to say.

I just don't get all the love for Molina, especially on a Reds board. I imagine most fans go by what they hear on the MLB network, but I watch a lot of the Cards, and he's league average at best.

Oh well, I guess it will be fun to talk about. The Cards fans I work with are nervous about the Reds, but I doubt many Reds fans are worried about the Cards. Pittsburgh is the team to watch out for, not the Cards. They always start hot, and end up sneaking in the playoffs as a wild card.

I also think it's funny how the guys at work talk about Chrissy Carpenter coming back. Holding out hope of your season on a 38 year old pitcher screams of desperation. He won't pitch again, and hasn't been good in a few years now when he has pitched.

ajswartz888
05-23-2013, 06:26 PM
Once you guys have to use up Tavares, Wong and Wacha you will have nothing. I'm surprised so fan Reds fans on here think Molina is that good. I live here, watch a lot of Cards games and can tell you he is way overrated. I'm not sure how it got started nationally, but he does nothing mind blowing on defense. He's had 1 good power year, that's it, and has 2 HR's only this year.

The Cards don't have the depth or arms to hang with the Reds, and I'll happily be back in September when the Cards have fallen in 3rd place. Wainwright, Miller and Lynn won't be enough in the rotation.

Meanwhile, the Reds continue to win and the Cards can't pull away. With Cueto back, it's all over. Walt will trade for another bat and it won't be close. Eat my words I will not, and I have a feeling Cards fans won't be posting on a Reds board 2 months from now because there will be nothing to say.

I just don't get all the love for Molina, especially on a Reds board. I imagine most fans go by what they hear on the MLB network, but I watch a lot of the Cards, and he's league average at best.

Oh well, I guess it will be fun to talk about. The Cards fans I work with are nervous about the Reds, but I doubt many Reds fans are worried about the Cards. Pittsburgh is the team to watch out for, not the Cards. They always start hot, and end up sneaking in the playoffs as a wild card.

I also think it's funny how the guys at work talk about Chrissy Carpenter coming back. Holding out hope of your season on a 38 year old pitcher screams of desperation. He won't pitch again, and hasn't been good in a few years now when he has pitched.
You mean the Chris Carpenter that pitched a CG shutout in Game 5 of the NLDS in 2011 which propelled the Cardinals on to win the World Series? Is that the Chris Carpenter you are talking about? Yeah, he was terrible in 2011. Just god awful. And are you talking about the same Pittsburgh Pirates that have not finished above .500 since 1992? Is that the Pirates you tell about?
You make yourself look a little sillier with every post. I can assure you the Cardinals and the Reds are not concerned about the Pirates. That's just the facts. You show your jealousy of the Cardinals more with every nonsense post you make. But keep hating man. It's kind of funny. I don't know why you can't just show a little respect. Everyone on else here seems to be down to earth. They know both teams are very good. So what's your problem. Other than jealousy of the model organization of the NL? Enjoy the rivalry instead of being so hateful. You'll have more fun and not be so miserable. Just a suggestion. Not that I think it will change anything.

757690
05-23-2013, 06:47 PM
The question isn't how good Molina is. He's very good.

The question is how did he get this good?

Baseball players just don't suddenly, at age 28, go from 6 years of .688 OPS to over two years of .840 OPS. At least not without some help. The only time I can remember that happening was in the mid 1990's. Now what was special about that time in MLB? ;)

I wouldn't be surprised if eventually, we find Molina on a list in MLB offices similar to the one from that clinic in Miami. In fact, I'd be surprised if we don't.

RedsfaninMO
05-23-2013, 06:57 PM
The question isn't how good Molina is. He's very good.

The question is how did he get this good?

Baseball players just don't suddenly, at age 28, go from 6 years of .688 OPS to over two years of .840 OPS. At least not without some help. The only time I can remember that happening was in the mid 1990's. Now what was special about that time in MLB? ;)

I wouldn't be surprised if eventually, we find Molina on a list in MLB offices similar to the one from that clinic in Miami. In fact, I'd be surprised if we don't.

I'll disagree that he's very good. However, I do find it funny that he hit 22 HR's out of nowhere last year. HGH maybe?

I really thought when I signed up here I wouldn't have to put up with Cardinal fans. Why in the world would another teams fans troll on a Reds board?

Anyway, I guess the mods don't care, even though this is a REDS BOARD, or should be.

I also find it funny no one sees the Pirates for what they are, the most improved team in baseball. Maybe no one has bothered to look at their roster, but they have a lot of good pitching and will stick around. It doesn't matter that they haven't made the playoffs since 1992, they're not playing with any of those teams.

Oh well, I won't be trolling a Cards board anytime no matter how far the Reds pull away, which will be by the end of June. Maybe SI should have paid attention to another team in the NL Central instead of the Cardinals and realized not one Reds starter missed a start last year and actually have a better pitching staff again this year with Cingrani is someone goes down. Should be fun, I'll stop my rant now. Thanks to all that welcomed me with insults.

Metroid
05-23-2013, 07:32 PM
You obviously havent been watching the Cardinals this year. To say the Cards dont have any depth and quality players is just delusional. What happened when Jason Motte went down, Mujica took his place and is getting the job done. What happened when Jake Westbrook went down, John Gast took his place and his won all 2 of his starts. When Jaime Garcia went down, some unknown rookie took his spot and won his first start. The Cards have a guy named Matt Adams who could be hitting 20+ hr's if he played every day, but he's on the bench................so dont tell me the Cards dont have any players that match up to the Reds while your team is sitting in 2nd place, adn the Cards have the best record in baseball. The Reds have an excellent team with good depth, but the Cards do also

Metroid
05-23-2013, 07:54 PM
What's overrated about a catcher who can hit, has a lifetime average of .300+ with RISP, has an arm that nobody runs on, is in the top 10 in batting, has improved his offense stats the last 4 years? I get it, you're a REds fans trying to posture and seem cool to your friends.....but you're being a little delusional.

westofyou
05-23-2013, 08:55 PM
What's overrated about a catcher who can hit, has a lifetime average of .300+ with RISP, has an arm that nobody runs on, is in the top 10 in batting, has improved his offense stats the last 4 years? I get it, you're a REds fans trying to posture and seem cool to your friends.....but you're being a little delusional.

I'd love the Reds to have a Molina type catcher, he's a stud

TDogg
05-23-2013, 09:25 PM
Just a HINT of advice. You might not want to call out the mods on this board. Yeah you are a Reds fan...but one mod in particular will DFA you in a heartbeat.

jlcomo
05-23-2013, 09:30 PM
Once you guys have to use up Tavares, Wong and Wacha you will have nothing. I'm surprised so fan Reds fans on here think Molina is that good. I live here, watch a lot of Cards games and can tell you he is way overrated. I'm not sure how it got started nationally, but he does nothing mind blowing on defense. He's had 1 good power year, that's it, and has 2 HR's only this year.

The Cards don't have the depth or arms to hang with the Reds, and I'll happily be back in September when the Cards have fallen in 3rd place. Wainwright, Miller and Lynn won't be enough in the rotation.

Meanwhile, the Reds continue to win and the Cards can't pull away. With Cueto back, it's all over. Walt will trade for another bat and it won't be close. Eat my words I will not, and I have a feeling Cards fans won't be posting on a Reds board 2 months from now because there will be nothing to say.

I just don't get all the love for Molina, especially on a Reds board. I imagine most fans go by what they hear on the MLB network, but I watch a lot of the Cards, and he's league average at best.

Oh well, I guess it will be fun to talk about. The Cards fans I work with are nervous about the Reds, but I doubt many Reds fans are worried about the Cards. Pittsburgh is the team to watch out for, not the Cards. They always start hot, and end up sneaking in the playoffs as a wild card.

I also think it's funny how the guys at work talk about Chrissy Carpenter coming back. Holding out hope of your season on a 38 year old pitcher screams of desperation. He won't pitch again, and hasn't been good in a few years now when he has pitched.

This reeks of somebody that gets picked on daily at work.

SpiritofStLouis
05-23-2013, 09:53 PM
The question isn't how good Molina is. He's very good.

The question is how did he get this good?

Baseball players just don't suddenly, at age 28, go from 6 years of .688 OPS to over two years of .840 OPS. At least not without some help. The only time I can remember that happening was in the mid 1990's. Now what was special about that time in MLB? ;)

I wouldn't be surprised if eventually, we find Molina on a list in MLB offices similar to the one from that clinic in Miami. In fact, I'd be surprised if we don't.

C'mon, you're better than that.












I think.

SpiritofStLouis
05-23-2013, 09:56 PM
This reeks of somebody that gets picked on daily at work.

I was thinking black socks in gym class and showering in his underwear.

Old school 1983
05-23-2013, 10:03 PM
I'm still confused to why people say closers here are a dime a dozen it really don't matter. Sure average closers are pretty easy to replace but shut down closers like chapman are not. To evaluate this only through saying so and so would get the same amount of saves as chapman so therefore he is an equal closer is ludicrous. Chapman has an effect that goes much farther than the save, which by all accounts is a very flawed way to measure a closers effectiveness, so why should it be used in an argument to compare on potential closer to another? Chapman anchors the back of the pen and allows for a nasty a boys type situation where the game is more or less over in the 7th for the most part with Marshall broxton then chapman. Having a setup like this makes the opposing team press earlier in the game and maybe not use the best strategy to win because they know they'll probably be shutdown the last three innings. Also there is a huge intimidation factor with knowing the game is probably over after 6 innings. This could play huge in a playoff situation. Chapman as the closer also saves the reds from going to guys like ondrusek or Simon in high leverage situations in say the 7th or 8th inning. So chapman a value as a closer cannot just be measured in saves. No shut down closers ability can. I'm not saying that he's the most important player on the team. That's pretty out there, but at the same time the thinking that closers are not important and bullpen guys are a dime a dozen kills me. So does the theory that a lot of people hold here that since chapman isn't starting we aren't getting maximum value out of him so he should be traded. That assumes a lot of stuff. Such as the closer being over rated In his effect, the fact that chapman would be a good starter ( I think so, but i think this year he should have been in the pen. Reds are going for it. Put your players in proven positions is success) and finally we assume we could get a huge return for him in a trade.

RedsfaninMO
05-23-2013, 10:05 PM
Just a HINT of advice. You might not want to call out the mods on this board. Yeah you are a Reds fan...but one mod in particular will DFA you in a heartbeat.

I'll keep that in mind. I was looking for a Reds board where Cardinal trolls don't show up like they do on the MLB message boards. I really have no idea why fans of another team feel it's necessary to go on other teams message boards, but that's just me.

I do get picked on at work. Like I said, I work with all Cardinal fans. Sometimes it's in good fun, most of the time it goes way overboard. Just looking for a place to post with fellow Reds fans, that's all.

757690
05-23-2013, 10:12 PM
I'll keep that in mind. I was looking for a Reds board where Cardinal trolls don't show up like they do on the MLB message boards. I really have no idea why fans of another team feel it's necessary to go on other teams message boards, but that's just me.

I do get picked on at work. Like I said, I work with all Cardinal fans. Sometimes it's in good fun, most of the time it goes way overboard. Just looking for a place to post with fellow Reds fans, that's all.

I grew up a Reds fan in Cardinal country in the '80s, so I feel for you. It does become hard to stay objective in such a situation. You have it worse, as the average Cards fans is now like the average Cubs fan. At least when I was there, they were very classy, we just got into debates, and I was never picked on for being a Reds fan.

RedlegJake
05-23-2013, 10:23 PM
I live in Cardinal country and other than some kidding never have a problem. Most Cards fans are classy still. Trolls are most often found where they can be anonymous. Sounds like RFinMO has a bunch of yahoos working with him. Or young guys who haven't learned to respect other people's differences yet and act like fandom is a real life or death thing.

Right now you are trying to take that frustration out on this board and making some dumb statements. That only loses you the respect your opinions might otherwise carry.

SpiritofStLouis
05-23-2013, 11:05 PM
I'll keep that in mind. I was looking for a Reds board where Cardinal trolls don't show up like they do on the MLB message boards. I really have no idea why fans of another team feel it's necessary to go on other teams message boards, but that's just me.

I do get picked on at work. Like I said, I work with all Cardinal fans. Sometimes it's in good fun, most of the time it goes way overboard. Just looking for a place to post with fellow Reds fans, that's all.

Perhaps you would fare better at the workplace if you took a more objective tact. Most fans are realistic in their opinions and can admit that they respect an opponent, even if they don't like them.

Making outlandish claims with no basis in reality usually won't endear you to your fellow employees, regardless of what team they follow. Most fans will overestimate their team and underestimate their opponents, that's just human nature. However, the majority can recognize an opponent with some level of objectivity.

The Reds and Cardinals are worthy adversaries, and rational baseball fans recognize that. Everyone is welcome to their opinion, and spirited discourse is an natural part of the process. Offered in a civil manner, it can be entertaining and informative.

Any forum worth it's salt has fans from various teams. This is such a site. There is nothing wrong with getting a flavor for the opposition and collecting information about said team and it's fans.

I have found that sites that are exclusively homer based are boring, and get stale in a hurry. A singular opinion doesn't provide a realistic view of a team or it's opponents.

You are obviously sensitive when it comes to the Redbirds, and I suppose that's understandable, but responding with ridiculous aspersions does nothing but undermine your credibility.

wacha
05-23-2013, 11:39 PM
C'mon, you're better than that.












I think.
-
No he's not. They are obviously the same person. What a loser.

SpiritofStLouis
05-23-2013, 11:47 PM
I grew up a Reds fan in Cardinal country in the '80s, so I feel for you. It does become hard to stay objective in such a situation. You have it worse, as the average Cards fans is now like the average Cubs fan. At least when I was there, they were very classy, we just got into debates, and I was never picked on for being a Reds fan.

A bit of a reach, no ?

One team has fans that can be arrogant, based on past success. The other team has fans that can be arrogant, bases on too much Old Style.

Old school 1983
05-23-2013, 11:52 PM
A bit of a reach, no ?

One team has fans that can be arrogant, based on past success. The other team has fans that can be arrogant, bases on too much Old Style.

At least the cards arrogance can be traced to recent events whereas the cubs alcohol induced arrogance can be traced back to a time when there hadn't been a 1st world war. Tinker to Evers to chance. Kinda reminds me if the episode of the Simpsons where Smithers had to tell burns one of his proposed players had been dead for over 80 years.

757690
05-24-2013, 12:06 AM
C'mon, you're better than that.

I think.

How many MLB players, before the 1990's, had six years of well below average OPS (.688), and then suddenly had two plus years of well above OPS (.850)?

Logic tells us that Molina likely has done something unnatural to increase his production. It is highly inprobable that such an improvement in production was from hard work or a change in skill.

SpiritofStLouis
05-24-2013, 12:28 AM
At least the cards arrogance can be traced to recent events whereas the cubs alcohol induced arrogance can be traced back to a time when there hadn't been a 1st world war. Tinker to Evers to chance. Kinda reminds me if the episode of the Simpsons where Smithers had to tell burns one of his proposed players had been dead for over 80 years.

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo133/spiritofstlouis/spiritofstlouis%20II/3D_emoticon_40.gif (http://s369.photobucket.com/user/spiritofstlouis/media/spiritofstlouis%20II/3D_emoticon_40.gif.html)

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i12/aprildawn1999/Cubs_Spirit.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/aprildawn1999/media/Cubs_Spirit.jpg.html)

It just never gets old.

westofyou
05-24-2013, 12:50 AM
How many MLB players, before the 1990's, had six years of well below average OPS (.688), and then suddenly had two plus years of well above OPS (.850)?

Logic tells us that Molina likely has done something unnatural to increase his production. It is highly inprobable that such an improvement in production was from hard work or a change in skill.
2004-2010

YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS

TOTALS 805 2680 223 718 122 2 41 1.53 325 220 253 21 16 .268 .361 .327 .688
LG AVERAGE 2762 379 740 152 17 86 3.10 361 279 530 48 19 .268 .428 .339 .767
POS AVERAGE 2700 285 688 142 7 70 2.58 347 246 499 12 8 .255 .390 .322 .712


Three guys who had similar paths (under .700 ops under 28 then above .800)

Red Schoendienst
Jose Cardenal
Terry Pendleton

Oddly all were Cards at one time.

SpiritofStLouis
05-24-2013, 12:50 AM
How many MLB players, before the 1990's, had six years of well below average OPS (.688), and then suddenly had two plus years of well above OPS (.850)?

Logic tells us that Molina likely has done something unnatural to increase his production. It is highly inprobable that such an improvement in production was from hard work or a change in skill.

Yadi's OPS was .740 in 2008 and .749 in 2009. His HR total increased by 8 from 2010 to 2011 and by 8 from 2011 to 2012. Both 2011 and 2012 were career highs in HRs, which accounts for the career totals in OPS.

If that jump leads you to believe that Yadi suddenly decided to take performance enhancing drugs, after MLB implemented it's most comprehensive drug testing problem to date, knock yourself out.

No one says you have to give Yadi credit for being one of the best catchers in MLB, but the petty jealousy you show by offering unfounded excuses is rather embarrassing.

757690
05-24-2013, 01:11 AM
2004-2010

YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS

TOTALS 805 2680 223 718 122 2 41 1.53 325 220 253 21 16 .268 .361 .327 .688
LG AVERAGE 2762 379 740 152 17 86 3.10 361 279 530 48 19 .268 .428 .339 .767
POS AVERAGE 2700 285 688 142 7 70 2.58 347 246 499 12 8 .255 .390 .322 .712


Three guys who had similar paths (under .700 ops under 28 then above .800)

Red Schoendienst
Jose Cardenal
Terry Pendleton

Oddly all were Cards at one time.

Thanks.:thumbup:

That just makes my argument stronger. Three times in the history of MLB. Pretty long odds that a jump like that is natural.

757690
05-24-2013, 01:22 AM
Yadi's OPS was .740 in 2008 and .749 in 2009. His HR total increased by 8 from 2010 to 2011 and by 8 from 2011 to 2012. Both 2011 and 2012 were career highs in HRs, which accounts for the career totals in OPS.

If that jump leads you to believe that Yadi suddenly decided to take performance enhancing drugs, after MLB implemented it's most comprehensive drug testing problem to date, knock yourself out.

No one says you have to give Yadi credit for being one of the best catchers in MLB, but the petty jealousy you show by offering unfounded excuses is rather embarrassing.

I'm saying 2011 and 2012 are the suspicious years. The stats you posted demonstrate that.

My argument is not unfounded, it's actually backed up strongly by facts, facts that you yourself posted, and history.

I'm not saying that I know that Yadi used PED's, just that any intelligent person has to be suspicious of how he made such an improvement over such a short period of time. Seeing how other players in the 1990's made similar improvements, and we know that they do so by using PED's, it actually is the most logical explanation.

Add in that Mark McGwire was his hitting coach during that period, and his manager has a long history of playing PED users, it makes even more sense.

I would have to say that Cardinal fans that deny the possibility that Yadi used PED's are the biased ones.

If Ryan Hanigan all the sudden started hitting 15-20 homers a year and OPSing over .800, the very first thought that would,go through my mind is that he used PeEd's and it probably would be yours as well.

MikeThierry
05-24-2013, 04:25 AM
Molina has always had a low strikeout rate and great bat control. He is one of the few players I have seen who see's a hole in the defense and can put the ball in play through a hole to beat the defense. He's also one of the few players I've ever seen get base hits by throwing his bat at the ball. The bottom line is that those skills have always been there so it's no surprise that by becoming more fit, his power numbers would increase. Now you can use the mentally weak argument of PED's as an explanation for his success but you are completely ignoring whole sets of data that point out reasons why his career has become better on the offensive front.

As fangraphs shows, he's always had great line drive rates even when he was younger. In fact, Yadier Molina's line drive rate is higher than Pujols career line drive rate. It also shows Yadier averaging an insanely low 8.7% strikeout rate within his career, which is even lower than Pujols career K rate.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=7007&position=C#advanced

EDIT: It should also be noted that prior to McGwire coming to St. Louis, he was all over the place with his batting stance. He would constantly change it. Now he has stuck to once batting stance. That certainly would help in maintaining production if the mechanics of his swing remained constant.

MikeThierry
05-24-2013, 04:35 AM
Once you guys have to use up Tavares, Wong and Wacha you will have nothing. I'm surprised so fan Reds fans on here think Molina is that good. I live here, watch a lot of Cards games and can tell you he is way overrated. I'm not sure how it got started nationally, but he does nothing mind blowing on defense. He's had 1 good power year, that's it, and has 2 HR's only this year.

The Cards don't have the depth or arms to hang with the Reds, and I'll happily be back in September when the Cards have fallen in 3rd place. Wainwright, Miller and Lynn won't be enough in the rotation.

Meanwhile, the Reds continue to win and the Cards can't pull away. With Cueto back, it's all over. Walt will trade for another bat and it won't be close. Eat my words I will not, and I have a feeling Cards fans won't be posting on a Reds board 2 months from now because there will be nothing to say.

I just don't get all the love for Molina, especially on a Reds board. I imagine most fans go by what they hear on the MLB network, but I watch a lot of the Cards, and he's league average at best.

Oh well, I guess it will be fun to talk about. The Cards fans I work with are nervous about the Reds, but I doubt many Reds fans are worried about the Cards. Pittsburgh is the team to watch out for, not the Cards. They always start hot, and end up sneaking in the playoffs as a wild card.

I also think it's funny how the guys at work talk about Chrissy Carpenter coming back. Holding out hope of your season on a 38 year old pitcher screams of desperation. He won't pitch again, and hasn't been good in a few years now when he has pitched.

Your posts become more laughable the more you post. Yeah, you're right that once Taveras and Wong come up, the Cards will have a depleted system. What that means though is that the Cards will have a very young team and a very talented team at the major league level. It also means the Cardinals will have a ton of cost control on their players for years to come. I liken it to the Reds. The Reds had one of the best farm systems in baseball a couple of years ago. They brought up the talent and it's a mid-ranged system now. However it really doesn't matter at this point for the Reds that their system is where it is because the talent on the major league team to where they don't need the system very much.

I guess being the best defensive catcher in baseball doesn't blow your mind. The people at the Fielding Bible disagree with you:

http://www.fieldingbible.com/the-2007-winners.asp

http://www.fieldingbible.com/the-2008-winners.asp

http://www.fieldingbible.com/the-2009-winners.asp

http://www.fieldingbible.com/the-2010-winners.asp

http://www.fieldingbible.com/the-winners.asp


Yadier is back. After a one-year hiatus when he came in second to Matt Wieters, Molina wins his fifth Fielding Bible Award, tying him with Albert Pujols for the most awards won in the seven-year history of The Fielding Bible Awards. In 2011 Molina dropped to his all-time low only throwing out 25% of baserunners attempting to steal. In 2012 he threw out 46%, an MLB leading percentage in line with the rest of his career. On top of that he was superlative handling bunts, saving four runs in the process and giving him 16 Defensive Runs Saved on the season, the most among catchers in baseball last year

Yep... just an average defensive catcher :bang::rolleyes:

757690
05-24-2013, 05:10 AM
Molina has always had a low strikeout rate and great bat control. He is one of the few players I have seen who see's a hole in the defense and can put the ball in play through a hole to beat the defense. He's also one of the few players I've ever seen get base hits by throwing his bat at the ball. The bottom line is that those skills have always been there so it's no surprise that by becoming more fit, his power numbers would increase. Now you can use the mentally weak argument of PED's as an explanation for his success but you are completely ignoring whole sets of data that point out reasons why his career has become better on the offensive front.

As fangraphs shows, he's always had great line drive rates even when he was younger. In fact, Yadier Molina's line drive rate is higher than Pujols career line drive rate. It also shows Yadier averaging an insanely low 8.7% strikeout rate within his career, which is even lower than Pujols career K rate.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=7007&position=C#advanced

EDIT: It should also be noted that prior to McGwire coming to St. Louis, he was all over the place with his batting stance. He would constantly change it. Now he has stuck to once batting stance. That certainly would help in maintaining production if the mechanics of his swing remained constant.

Yadi always had been a decent on base guy, as your numbers demonstrate. However, he never demonstrated any power, not even in the minors. His power numbers were well below average.

All of the sudden, he's has above average power. I'm sorry, but a new batting stance just doesn't explain increased power. He's not hitting more flyballs or line drives, it's just that more of his flyballs and line drives are becoming home runs. The only way that happens to the degree that it has, is if he is personally stronger.

There is a possibility that Molina became stronger by working out more, but it's very rare for someone who is already a top athlete to get stronger at the age of 28 simply from working out more. The most logical explanation for Yadi's power surge is that he got external help. Maybe what he's taking in legal and natural, but it probably isn't.

SpiritofStLouis
05-24-2013, 06:02 AM
Yadi always had been a decent on base guy, as your numbers demonstrate. However, he never demonstrated any power, not even in the minors. His power numbers were well below average.

All of the sudden, he's has above average power. I'm sorry, but a new batting stance just doesn't explain increased power. He's not hitting more flyballs or line drives, it's just that more of his flyballs and line drives are becoming home runs. The only way that happens to the degree that it has, is if he is personally stronger.

There is a possibility that Molina became stronger by working out more, but it's very rare for someone who is already a top athlete to get stronger at the age of 28 simply from working out more. The most logical explanation for Yadi's power surge is that he got external help. Maybe what he's taking in legal and natural, but it probably isn't.

If he is indeed guilty of using PEDs, then he will get caught and suspended. He has never been accused, except by you, and as far as I know, he has never been suspected or even mentioned (again, except by you), so I will presume him innocent until it is proven otherwise.

By the way, Yadi has 2 home runs this year. Did he stop using or did his supply run out ? Then again, I have seen the same drop off from Joey Votto. Maybe they have the same source. ;)

Johnny Fan
05-24-2013, 09:20 AM
I'm still confused to why people say closers here are a dime a dozen it really don't matter. Sure average closers are pretty easy to replace but shut down closers like chapman are not. To evaluate this only through saying so and so would get the same amount of saves as chapman so therefore he is an equal closer is ludicrous. Chapman has an effect that goes much farther than the save, which by all accounts is a very flawed way to measure a closers effectiveness, so why should it be used in an argument to compare on potential closer to another? Chapman anchors the back of the pen and allows for a nasty a boys type situation where the game is more or less over in the 7th for the most part with Marshall broxton then chapman. Having a setup like this makes the opposing team press earlier in the game and maybe not use the best strategy to win because they know they'll probably be shutdown the last three innings. Also there is a huge intimidation factor with knowing the game is probably over after 6 innings. This could play huge in a playoff situation. Chapman as the closer also saves the reds from going to guys like ondrusek or Simon in high leverage situations in say the 7th or 8th inning. So chapman a value as a closer cannot just be measured in saves. No shut down closers ability can. I'm not saying that he's the most important player on the team. That's pretty out there, but at the same time the thinking that closers are not important and bullpen guys are a dime a dozen kills me. So does the theory that a lot of people hold here that since chapman isn't starting we aren't getting maximum value out of him so he should be traded. That assumes a lot of stuff. Such as the closer being over rated In his effect, the fact that chapman would be a good starter ( I think so, but i think this year he should have been in the pen. Reds are going for it. Put your players in proven positions is success) and finally we assume we could get a huge return for him in a trade.

Exactly what is a "shut down closer"? If you look around baseball you will see that closers come and go and outside of maybe 1-2 most have very fleeting careers and are replaced regulary. WHY? Because it's not that tough to be one. Chapman also isn't a pitcher, hasn't been during his time with the reds. Chapman is a thrower at this point, he doesn't have the skill set at this point to be termed a pitcher. He is very much like Randy Johnson was early in his career. He would just wind up and throw it up there and hope they don't hit it. A pitcher is someone with a number of different pitches at their command, the ability to have movement on their pitches and above have the ability to spot a pitch location wise when they want to. Chapman can't do any of that at this point in his career. This team would be where it is now without Chapman.

757690
05-24-2013, 11:03 AM
If he is indeed guilty of using PEDs, then he will get caught and suspended. He has never been accused, except by you, and as far as I know, he has never been suspected or even mentioned (again, except by you), so I will presume him innocent until it is proven otherwise.

By the way, Yadi has 2 home runs this year. Did he stop using or did his supply run out ? Then again, I have seen the same drop off from Joey Votto. Maybe they have the same source. ;)

First, Votto has seven homers this year, and last year got injured, so not sure what you're talking about. And maybe Yadi did stop using whatever he was using out of fear of getting caught? Although his overall power numbers aren't down by the much.

Second, plenty of people have been suspicious of Molina and lots of other players. Just go to other message boards.

Third, did you suspect Melky Cabrera or Ryan Braun before they failed their drug tests? Was anyone accusing them before they got caught?

Fans are naive if they think only players who get caught are guilty of PED use. Not everyone gets tested, it's random. With the money out there, and the weak penalties, we can understand why some players might try, at least for a year or two to build up some nice numbers for a big contract... Kinda like the one Molina signed after his first big, breakout year.

Again, I'm not saying Molina is guilty of PED use, just that a rarional look at the facts would at the very least make one suspicious.

Old school 1983
05-24-2013, 11:09 AM
Exactly what is a "shut down closer"? If you look around baseball you will see that closers come and go and outside of maybe 1-2 most have very fleeting careers and are replaced regulary. WHY? Because it's not that tough to be one. Chapman also isn't a pitcher, hasn't been during his time with the reds. Chapman is a thrower at this point, he doesn't have the skill set at this point to be termed a pitcher. He is very much like Randy Johnson was early in his career. He would just wind up and throw it up there and hope they don't hit it. A pitcher is someone with a number of different pitches at their command, the ability to have movement on their pitches and above have the ability to spot a pitch location wise when they want to. Chapman can't do any of that at this point in his career. This team would be where it is now without Chapman.

Chapman doesn't have an 100% conversion rate but people often say that he and Cordero had similar save conversion stats. Who would you rather have out there in the ninth? A guy that can work through it but gives the other team hope by being hittable, or a guy like chapman, who is generally not very hittable and can shut down the game pretty rapidly with three Ks? I think I'm going chapman if that option is available and thinking that trading him and using a different guy in the 9th doesn't weaken the 9th and the overall structure of the pen doesn't make much sense to me whether he be a pitcher or thrower.

Johnny Fan
05-24-2013, 12:49 PM
Chapman doesn't have an 100% conversion rate but people often say that he and Cordero had similar save conversion stats. Who would you rather have out there in the ninth? A guy that can work through it but gives the other team hope by being hittable, or a guy like chapman, who is generally not very hittable and can shut down the game pretty rapidly with three Ks? I think I'm going chapman if that option is available and thinking that trading him and using a different guy in the 9th doesn't weaken the 9th and the overall structure of the pen doesn't make much sense to me whether he be a pitcher or thrower.

For me it's Coco, no question. Chapman is a work in progress and maybe 3-4 years down the road he will be a pitcher and not a thrower. Right now, if given the choice I would go with a combo of Marshall/Lecure in the 9th depending on whom was coming to bat.

Old school 1983
05-24-2013, 02:52 PM
For me it's Coco, no question. Chapman is a work in progress and maybe 3-4 years down the road he will be a pitcher and not a thrower. Right now, if given the choice I would go with a combo of Marshall/Lecure in the 9th depending on whom was coming to bat.

That'd get rough. They are both solid very solid guys but in the 9th they make a mistake it could get crushed at 88 to 90 mph. Chapman does at 100 and it could easily be missed. I get your argument. They are way better pitchers but chapman a stuff is so electric it trumps it in my mind and you don't trade that just because we think we aren't getting full value out if him.

Old school 1983
05-24-2013, 03:00 PM
For me it's Coco, no question. Chapman is a work in progress and maybe 3-4 years down the road he will be a pitcher and not a thrower. Right now, if given the choice I would go with a combo of Marshall/Lecure in the 9th depending on whom was coming to bat.

I totally agree though that he is a thrower and not a pitcher. I think leaving him as closer does stunt his development towards becoming a pitcher. I want him to start, but this year inthinknkeeping him in the pen was the right move. The reds are going for it all and I want my guys in positions of strength where I know they can succeed. Now next year with arroyo gone, unless we get someone or someone steps up in a major way in the minors, i want him starting and developing into a pitcher.

Johnny Fan
05-24-2013, 04:33 PM
I totally agree though that he is a thrower and not a pitcher. I think leaving him as closer does stunt his development towards becoming a pitcher. I want him to start, but this year inthinknkeeping him in the pen was the right move. The reds are going for it all and I want my guys in positions of strength where I know they can succeed. Now next year with arroyo gone, unless we get someone or someone steps up in a major way in the minors, i want him starting and developing into a pitcher.

Given how talent laden we are in the pen, to me this was the perfect time to start Chapman in AAA. Let him go out and start every fifth day down there and learn. Hey if there is an injury we have enough talent to cover and more then enough arms to handle closing. Then come next year when we lose Bronson, we could look at adding either Chapman or Cigiarini as starters or both and maybe deal Leake and another player for some more offense. He is just wasting away in the pen this season for no reason.

Johnny Fan
05-24-2013, 04:34 PM
That'd get rough. They are both solid very solid guys but in the 9th they make a mistake it could get crushed at 88 to 90 mph. Chapman does at 100 and it could easily be missed. I get your argument. They are way better pitchers but chapman a stuff is so electric it trumps it in my mind and you don't trade that just because we think we aren't getting full value out if him.

Average Philly hitters and or Marlins and last year Stros hitters had no problem "crushing" Chapman. I will take my chances with Lecure and Marshall being able to pitch around good hitting instead of Chapman hoping they can't catch up with his fastball.

Old school 1983
05-24-2013, 05:48 PM
Average Philly hitters and or Marlins and last year Stros hitters had no problem "crushing" Chapman. I will take my chances with Lecure and Marshall being able to pitch around good hitting instead of Chapman hoping they can't catch up with his fastball.

I think you taking a minority of cases and acting like its normal. The guy generally doesn't get hit all that much.

jlcomo
05-24-2013, 07:05 PM
First, Votto has seven homers this year, and last year got injured, so not sure what you're talking about. And maybe Yadi did stop using whatever he was using out of fear of getting caught? Although his overall power numbers aren't down by the much.

Second, plenty of people have been suspicious of Molina and lots of other players. Just go to other message boards.

Third, did you suspect Melky Cabrera or Ryan Braun before they failed their drug tests? Was anyone accusing them before they got caught?

Fans are naive if they think only players who get caught are guilty of PED use. Not everyone gets tested, it's random. With the money out there, and the weak penalties, we can understand why some players might try, at least for a year or two to build up some nice numbers for a big contract... Kinda like the one Molina signed after his first big, breakout year.

Again, I'm not saying Molina is guilty of PED use, just that a rarional look at the facts would at the very least make one suspicious.

So by this rational I guess we're to suppose that Johnny Cueto started taking steroids in 2010. I mean he dropped his ERA by almost a full run. I guess that might explain the injury problems too.

Shin Soo Choo must have got on the juice this year since his OPS is up 170 points over last year and 250 points over 2011. I guess it makes sense since he's in a contract year.

wacha
05-24-2013, 09:59 PM
So by this rational I guess we're to suppose that Johnny Cueto started taking steroids in 2010. I mean he dropped his ERA by almost a full run. I guess that might explain the injury problems too.

Shin Soo Choo must have got on the juice this year since his OPS is up 170 points over last year and 250 points over 2011. I guess it makes sense since he's in a contract year.
-
Don't forget Brandon Phillips. He was terrible until he got to the Reds. Then he started hitting a bunch of homers. No doubt he's a steroid user. A bunch of people on other message board have said the same thing as well. Not sure how he hasn't been caught yet.

757690
05-24-2013, 10:27 PM
So by this rational I guess we're to suppose that Johnny Cueto started taking steroids in 2010. I mean he dropped his ERA by almost a full run. I guess that might explain the injury problems too.

Shin Soo Choo must have got on the juice this year since his OPS is up 170 points over last year and 250 points over 2011. I guess it makes sense since he's in a contract year.

Choo was injured the last few years, and had great years before that.

Cueto and Phillips were 24 when they turned the corner on their career, which is when most players start to reach their potential. MLB history is littered with players who struggled until around age 24, and then became very productive players. Players who put up six years of below average power, and then at age 28 turn into above averge power hitters are extremely rare, about one every three decades.

Bt nice try :)

foxfire123
05-24-2013, 11:10 PM
Yadier shows up against the Reds like Brandon shows up against the Cardinals.

Yadier is probably one of the top 3 catchers in the game right now.

But I heard Larussa actually say, and I'm guessing he was drunk when he was quoted, that Molina was better than Bench. Which just reaffirms that TLR is .......

I hate to admit it about *any* Cardinals player, and I despise Molina as a rule, but you have to admit he is one of the best catchers in the biz right now. You do have to give him that no matter what team you're a fan of.

But better than Bench? N-E-V-E-R. Not on his best day or in his wildest dreams.

foxfire123
05-24-2013, 11:24 PM
I live in Cardinal country and other than some kidding never have a problem. Most Cards fans are classy still. Trolls are most often found where they can be anonymous. Sounds like RFinMO has a bunch of yahoos working with him. Or young guys who haven't learned to respect other people's differences yet and act like fandom is a real life or death thing.



I can appreciate to an extent what RFinMO goes through daily, since I have to live it too. True Cards fans are relatively classy, but the bandwaggoneers are the ones who make life here hell for non Cards fans. You have to learn to ignore them, or at least not let them SEE you get irritated--they thrive on that crap. I've gotten to the point where I can ignore pretty much anything, except that one ^&%$$#%^ beer rep who if Cueto's name even gets mentioned has to start blowing off about The Fight. :thumbdown:

SpiritofStLouis
05-25-2013, 12:54 AM
I can appreciate to an extent what RFinMO goes through daily, since I have to live it too. True Cards fans are relatively classy, but the bandwaggoneers are the ones who make life here hell for non Cards fans. You have to learn to ignore them, or at least not let them SEE you get irritated--they thrive on that crap. I've gotten to the point where I can ignore pretty much anything, except that one ^&%$$#%^ beer rep who if Cueto's name even gets mentioned has to start blowing off about The Fight. :thumbdown:

A lot of fans won't let Cueto off the hook. Any fan base would be upset if a player kicked your catcher in the head and ended his career.

Just sayin'.

foxfire123
05-25-2013, 01:22 AM
A lot of fans won't let Cueto off the hook. Any fan base would be upset if a player kicked your catcher in the head and ended his career.

Just sayin'.

Admit it, your name is Sean, right?

The players have dropped it and let it go, why can't you St Louis fans?

SpiritofStLouis
05-25-2013, 01:32 AM
Admit it, your name is Sean, right?

The players have dropped it and let it go, why can't you St Louis fans?

Personally, I've let it go. If I had to guess why other fans haven't, it's probably that you don't kick another player, even in a fight, especially in the head (considered cowardice).

It ended a guy's career.

I could imagine that if the circumstances were reversed, a lot of Red fans would not let it go.

Wonder if LaRue and his family have let it go ?

757690
05-25-2013, 01:45 AM
Personally, I've let it go. If I had to guess why other fans haven't, it's probably that you don't kick another player, even in a fight, especially in the head (considered cowardice).

It ended a guy's career.

I could imagine that if the circumstances were reversed, a lot of Red fans would not let it go.

Wonder if LaRue and his family have let it go ?

If it was intentional, I could understand. But it clearly was an accident.

Cueto was stupid to be kicking like he did, and he deserves complete blame for the accident. But I can't see how anyone thinks Cueto actually tried to kick LaRue or anyone in that situation.

We've been through this before. It might have technically ended LaRue's career, but in reality, it simply shortened by a few months.

SpiritofStLouis
05-25-2013, 01:51 AM
If it was intentional, I could understand. But it clearly was an accident.

Cueto was stupid to be kicking like he did, and he deserves complete blame for the accident. But I can't see how anyone thinks Cueto actually tried to kick LaRue or anyone in that situation.

We've been through this before. It might have technically ended LaRue's career, but in reality, it simply shortened by a few months.

The kick was intentional, hitting him in the head was most likely unintentional. At the time, the Cardinals did not have a competent back up catcher in the organization, so it's likely that LaRue might have played for another year.

757690
05-25-2013, 02:14 AM
The kick was intentional, hitting him in the head was most likely unintentional. At the time, the Cardinals did not have a competent back up catcher in the organization, so it's likely that LaRue might have played for another year.

They had access to plenty of catchers who could hit higher than .196 and weren't 37 years old.

wacha
05-25-2013, 03:26 AM
Choo was injured the last few years, and had great years before that.

Cueto and Phillips were 24 when they turned the corner on their career, which is when most players start to reach their potential. MLB history is littered with players who struggled until around age 24, and then became very productive players. Players who put up six years of below average power, and then at age 28 turn into above averge power hitters are extremely rare, about one every three decades.

Bt nice try :)
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False. Phillips was 26 when he suddenly hit 30 homers. He never again came close to that. It would be illogical to believe he wasn't on steroids that year. In fact if you ask any of his close friends they will admit that he took steroids as well.

SpiritofStLouis
05-25-2013, 03:38 AM
They had access to plenty of catchers who could hit higher than .196 and weren't 37 years old.

I guess that justifies ending a player's career. I'm sure that's how he and his family look at it.

757690
05-25-2013, 04:07 AM
-
False. Phillips was 26 when he suddenly hit 30 homers. He never again came close to that. It would be illogical to believe he wasn't on steroids that year. In fact if you ask any of his close friends they will admit that he took steroids as well.

Actually, Phillips was 24 when he started his breakthrough year. I'm not sure they teach math in Saint Louis, so I'm going to break it down for you as simply as I can.

He was born June 28, 1981.

He started his breakthrough year in April of 2006.

2006 - 1981 = 25.

That means he turned 25 on June 28, 2006.

Which means he was 24 in April of 2006. (See April comes before June)

Phillips hit 17 home runs that year, his second full year in the majors, with the first one being three years earlier when he was 21. Then the next season, 2007, he hit 32. Then he followed that season with seasons of 21, 20, and then three in row with 18. Here is that progression easier to read form.

Age HR
21 - 6
24 - 17
25 - 30
26 - 21
27 - 20
28 - 18
29 - 10
30 - 18

That is perfectly natural progression of power numbers that mirrors what literally hundreds of previous players have done in MLB history. The most logical explanation for Phillips power is that he simply has that much power naturally.

Here's Yadi's home run progression over his career.

Age HR
21 - 2
22 - 8
23 - 6
24 - 6
25 - 7
26 - 6
27 - 6
28 - 14
29 - 22

That is not a natural progression of power numbers. That is one that virtually no other player in MLB history has ever had, before steroids become widely used, and then became more common, when steroids were widely used. The most logical explanation for this progression of power numbers is that Molina did something similar to those players that we know used PED's. It doesn't prove that he did, but means the odds are high.

Btw, I was just kidding about the whole math part, but it's hard to resist making fun of Cardinal fans, lol :)

757690
05-25-2013, 04:14 AM
I guess that justifies ending a player's career. I'm sure that's how he and his family look at it.

It sucks what happened to him, and Cueto was completely at fault for it, even if it was a complete accident.

But it's absurd to assume that without the kick to the head, that LaRue would have played the next season. Maybe some team would have signed him, who knows, but history tells us that 37 year old catchers who hit below .200 the year before don't get major league deals the next season.

It is completely disingenuous to pull out the mock sympathy card and claim that Cueto ended LaRue's career. The reality is that it likely shortened it by around 6 weeks.

Beltway
05-25-2013, 05:23 AM
757890: Your argument sounds almost as dumb as RedsfaninMO's.

Old School 1983: I don't think relief pitchers are a dime a dozen. I do think the closer position is overrated. A team's best relief pitcher should be used in high leverage situations, whether that's in the 6th inning with 2 on and nobody out or the 9th. That's how relief pitchers used to be used, then MLB invented the save stat. That stat changed the way managers used their bullpens, so we have the nonsense we have today, where managers won't use their best relievers in high leverage situations. Managers now save the Chapman's of MLB for the 9th inning. Using Chapman in that way actually makes him LESS valuable than he could be.

wacha
05-25-2013, 06:00 AM
Actually, Phillips was 24 when he started his breakthrough year. I'm not sure they teach math in Saint Louis, so I'm going to break it down for you as simply as I can.

He was born June 28, 1981.

He started his breakthrough year in April of 2006.

2006 - 1981 = 25.

That means he turned 25 on June 28, 2006.

Which means he was 24 in April of 2006. (See April comes before June)

Phillips hit 17 home runs that year, his second full year in the majors, with the first one being three years earlier when he was 21. Then the next season, 2007, he hit 32. Then he followed that season with seasons of 21, 20, and then three in row with 18. Here is that progression easier to read form.

Age HR
21 - 6
24 - 17
25 - 30
26 - 21
27 - 20
28 - 18
29 - 10
30 - 18

That is perfectly natural progression of power numbers that mirrors what literally hundreds of previous players have done in MLB history. The most logical explanation for Phillips power is that he simply has that much power naturally.

Here's Yadi's home run progression over his career.

Age HR
21 - 2
22 - 8
23 - 6
24 - 6
25 - 7
26 - 6
27 - 6
28 - 14
29 - 22

That is not a natural progression of power numbers. That is one that virtually no other player in MLB history has ever had, before steroids become widely used, and then became more common, when steroids were widely used. The most logical explanation for this progression of power numbers is that Molina did something similar to those players that we know used PED's. It doesn't prove that he did, but means the odds are high.

Btw, I was just kidding about the whole math part, but it's hard to resist making fun of Cardinal fans, lol :)
-
Virtually no player? Lol, you're clueless. And how is going from 17 home runs to 30 home runs natural profession? At age 26 he shouldn't see any sudden growth unless he's on steroids. Just like Joe Mauer right?

757690
05-25-2013, 06:40 AM
-
Virtually no player? Lol, you're clueless. And how is going from 17 home runs to 30 home runs natural profession? At age 26 he shouldn't see any sudden growth unless he's on steroids. Just like Joe Mauer right?

The research has been done in this very thread. Only three other players in the history of MLB before the 1990's have had a similar progression of power as Molina (they were all Cardinals, btw). That is the very definition of virtually none.

And in a quick search, I found the following current players who went from around 15 homers to around 30 in their careers. In fact, it's over 50% of the players who have had 30 homers that I researched. This isn't all of the current players, just the ones I found in a five minute search on Baseball-Reference. I can only imagine how many players I would find if I took the time and researched all the players in the history of MLB.

Matt Holliday
Matt Kemp
Adam Jones
Josh Hamilton
B. J. Upton
Justin Upton
Jarrod Saltalmacchia
Mike Napoli
Paul Konerko
Josh Willingham
Billy Butler
Curtis Granderson
Adrian Beltre
Robinson Cano
Josh Reddick

The facts just aren't on your side. But keep trying, this is fun :)

Beltway
05-25-2013, 07:13 AM
The research has been done in this very thread. Only three other players in the history of MLB before the 1990's have had a similar progression of power as Molina (they were all Cardinals, btw). That is the very definition of virtually none.
You did not read that post correctly. He did not say those were the only 3 in MLB history. He said (paraphrasing) "here are 3 and they happen to be Cardinals". I am certain that if you bothered to look, you would find hundreds, if not thousands of players with similar progressions of power.

And that is why I think your argument is so bad.

frivolousz21
05-25-2013, 07:21 AM
For the Reds in 2013 it's Votto.

The guy is a potential HOF talent.

The reds have been hot during Votto being super hot.

The guy is in beast mode.

For the Cards it's Wainwright and Molina.


Both teams are playoff bound.

Both teams will win 93-100 games.

One of them will win the play in game and the both will meet in the NLCS. If the Reds can win a series :)

I have a feeling the Reds young guns are experienced, seasoned and ready to roll.

The cards have had an insane run from 2000-2012. It is a huge factor in breeding success.

Cubs fans in the mid 2000s overlooked the Cardinals way, now some Red's fans have.

I have mad respect for the Reds, Walt, Dusty, Votto and the youth program the Reds have built.

If Major League Baseball wasn't ran by idiots.

We would have a two division format.

The 1st and 2nd place teams would face off in a 7 game series. 1st place get's home field that would be games 3-6. Giving them a huge advantage during crunch time.

Either way the Reds and Cards would have already faced off in 2010 and 2012.

frivolousz21
05-25-2013, 07:25 AM
The research has been done in this very thread. Only three other players in the history of MLB before the 1990's have had a similar progression of power as Molina (they were all Cardinals, btw). That is the very definition of virtually none.


The facts just aren't on your side. But keep trying, this is fun :)

What?

757690
05-25-2013, 07:51 AM
You did not read that post correctly. He did not say those were the only 3 in MLB history. He said (paraphrasing) "here are 3 and they happen to be Cardinals". I am certain that if you bothered to look, you would find hundreds, if not thousands of players with similar progressions of power.

And that is why I think your argument is so bad.

Seriously? There are hundreds if not thousands of MLB players before the 1990's, who had single digit homers for six years, then at age 28 suddenly hit 14 in one year and then 22 the next? There are hundreds if not thousands of MLB players before the 1990's, who went from six users of sub .700 OPS to two years of over .800 OPS at age 28? Seriously?

Name 10. I dare you. I dare anyone. If there are as many as you say, it should be a piece of cake to find 10.

It really is a extremely rare feat, one that very rarely occurred before the steroid ERA.

SpiritofStLouis
05-25-2013, 07:51 AM
It sucks what happened to him, and Cueto was completely at fault for it, even if it was a complete accident.

But it's absurd to assume that without the kick to the head, that LaRue would have played the next season. Maybe some team would have signed him, who knows, but history tells us that 37 year old catchers who hit below .200 the year before don't get major league deals the next season.

It is completely disingenuous to pull out the mock sympathy card and claim that Cueto ended LaRue's career. The reality is that it likely shortened it by around 6 weeks.

It happened on August 10. On September 19 (about 6 weeks later), after an examination showed that he still had bruising on the brain, he admitted he couldn't drive or ride in a car, so he announced his retirement.


"I was going to retire on my own terms," LaRue said, according to the report. "It's unfortunate that the blow that decided it came from someone kicking me in the head with spikes. I wouldn't say I would change things if you could rewrite history. They say things happen for certain reasons. In this case, I couldn't tell you why. Does it suck that my career is over because Johnny Cueto started kicking me in the head? Yes, it sucks.

I think it is disingenuous to trivialize a career ending injury because, in your opinion, it only cost a player 6 weeks (actually 8) of his career.

From what I read, it didn't sound like LaRue was quite ready to hang 'em up. Considering that of the 2 catchers in position to replace LaRue (see article), neither earned the job, there was a good chance that Jason would have been retained. He was popular with the team for the way he handled the pitchers, which explains why he had been with the team for 3 years as a back up. That's not the norm for back up catchers.

Cueto should praise him for taking the high road. He could have filed charges and then sued him in civil court, but he chose not to.

All I can say is that if it had happened to a Red, seeing the feelings most Cincinnati fans have for the Cardinals, it would be a much bigger deal than the Cardinals and their fans have made it.


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5592023

757690
05-25-2013, 08:03 AM
You did not read that post correctly. He did not say those were the only 3 in MLB history. He said (paraphrasing) "here are 3 and they happen to be Cardinals". I am certain that if you bothered to look, you would find hundreds, if not thousands of players with similar progressions of power.

And that is why I think your argument is so bad.


It happened on August 10. On September 19 (about 6 weeks later), after an examination showed that he still had bruising on the brain, he admitted he couldn't drive or ride in a car, so he announced his retirement.



I think it is disingenuous to trivialize a career ending injury because, in your opinion, it only cost a player 6 weeks (actually 8) of his career.

From what I read, it didn't sound like LaRue was quite ready to hang 'em up. Considering that of the 2 catchers in position to replace LaRue (see article), neither earned the job, there was a good chance that Jason would have been retained. He was popular with the team for the way he handled the pitchers, which explains why he had been with the team for 3 years as a back up. That's not the norm for back up catchers.

Cueto should praise him for taking the high road. He could have filed charges and then sued him in civil court, but he chose not to.

All I can say is that if it had happened to a Red, seeing the feelings most Cincinnati fans have for the Cardinals, it would be a much bigger deal than the Cardinals and their fans have made it.


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5592023

Whose trivializing the injury? Remember LaRue was a long time Red and very popular. Most Reds fans felt horrible about what happened to him. Like I said, it sucks.

But what we all should be focusing on is not how his affected his career as a Cardinal, that's an incredibly selfish and petty way of looking at this. What sucks is that LaRue's head probably will never be 100% right ever again. His life will much more difficult now. The tragedy is on a personal level, not a professional one.

And there is no way LaRue could sue anyone for this injury. If that was the case, every hockey and football player would be sued every day.

Old school 1983
05-25-2013, 08:07 AM
757890: Your argument sounds almost as dumb as RedsfaninMO's.

Old School 1983: I don't think relief pitchers are a dime a dozen. I do think the closer position is overrated. A team's best relief pitcher should be used in high leverage situations, whether that's in the 6th inning with 2 on and nobody out or the 9th. That's how relief pitchers used to be used, then MLB invented the save stat. That stat changed the way managers used their bullpens, so we have the nonsense we have today, where managers won't use their best relievers in high leverage situations. Managers now save the Chapman's of MLB for the 9th inning. Using Chapman in that way actually makes him LESS valuable than he could be.

I completely agree with you on the fact that the best reliever should be used in the high leverage situation. By not doing so it just doesn't devalue chapman, but other great relievers throughout the league. My comments about relievers being a dime a dozen wasn't directed personally at you. It was kind of towards a lot if people on redzone who believe that any scrap heap guy could close and be good at it. I think about any dude could rack up a bunch if saves, but I see saves as a manufactured, skewed stat, that has been devalued even since its creation, so it isn't a very good way to evaluate a closer or any relievers real worth.

SpiritofStLouis
05-25-2013, 08:28 AM
Whose trivializing the injury? Remember LaRue was a long time Red and very popular. Most Reds fans felt horrible about what happened to him. Like I said, it sucks.

But what we all should be focusing on is not how his affected his career as a Cardinal, that's an incredibly selfish and petty way of looking at this. What sucks is that LaRue's head probably will never be 100% right ever again. His life will much more difficult now. The tragedy is on a personal level, not a professional one.

And there is no way LaRue could sue anyone for this injury. If that was the case, every hockey and football player would be sued every day.

Technically, I'm sure a good lawyer could argue that the incident didn't fall under the scope of a " baseball related injury ". The fact that it was brought up in the article proves that in some way, shape or form, the possibility existed.

You are the one who trivialized it stating that it only shortened his career by 6 weeks and that he probably wouldn't have played the next year anyway.

There are a lot of articles you can look up in which Canadian law enforcement filed charges against players for incidents on the ice. In addition, LaRue was entitled by law to sue Cueto in civil court even if criminal charges were never filed.

I also believe that over a hundred former NFL players are currently suing the league over head injuries. The league will no doubt argue that those injuries occurred as a result of play on the field.

Cueto can't claim that.

Old school 1983
05-25-2013, 09:01 AM
Are we still arguing about that fight in 2010. Like in most fights both sides played a hand. Lets get over it and worry about baseball.

Beltway
05-25-2013, 09:11 AM
Seriously? There are hundreds if not thousands of MLB players before the 1990's, who had single digit homers for six years, then at age 28 suddenly hit 14 in one year and then 22 the next? There are hundreds if not thousands of MLB players before the 1990's, who went from six users of sub .700 OPS to two years of over .800 OPS at age 28? Seriously?

Name 10. I dare you. I dare anyone. If there are as many as you say, it should be a piece of cake to find 10.

It really is a extremely rare feat, one that very rarely occurred before the steroid ERA.
Is that your criteria, specifically? Must have at least 6 seasons of single digit homeruns, then hit 14 at the age of 28 and 22 at the age of 29? If so, then Molina might be the only one in MLB history. None of the 3 people listed by the previous poster fit that criteria either. Jose Cardenal hit 11 HRs his first season in MLB, at the age of 22. Terry Pendleton had his first double digit homerun season in his 3rd MLB season, at the age of 27. Red Schoendienst had his first double digit HR season at the age of 30.

The criteria that would fit all of those hitters, along with Molina absolutely would include hundreds, if not thousands of hitters. But you're not looking for an honest debate here. You're on an anti-Molina soapbox, which is your right, but your argument is dumb.

What I see with Molina is this. He is at his peak, offensively. The year he hit 22 HRs, maybe he got lucky and got under a few more balls that would have normally been doubles. That's it. It's statistical variation coupled with a player being at his peak, offensively.

Old school 1983
05-25-2013, 09:23 AM
What I see with Molina is this. He is at his peak, offensively. The year he hit 22 HRs, maybe he got lucky and got under a few more balls that would have normally been doubles. That's it. It's statistical variation coupled with a player being at his peak, offensively.

Getting under hits that are usually going to be doubles. I think Roger Maris said something similar to that about his 61 homer season. His previous career high was 39 that's a huge jump. The fact of the matter is stuff like that can happen for season or two.

As far as PEDs, at this point in the game it wouldn't surprise me if any player was found to use them, but lets save the accusations and finger pointing to when there is actual evidence to it like a connection to a biogenesis or a failed test.

757690
05-25-2013, 12:05 PM
Is that your criteria, specifically? Must have at least 6 seasons of single digit homeruns, then hit 14 at the age of 28 and 22 at the age of 29? If so, then Molina might be the only one in MLB history. None of the 3 people listed by the previous poster fit that criteria either. Jose Cardenal hit 11 HRs his first season in MLB, at the age of 22. Terry Pendleton had his first double digit homerun season in his 3rd MLB season, at the age of 27. Red Schoendienst had his first double digit HR season at the age of 30.

The criteria that would fit all of those hitters, along with Molina absolutely would include hundreds, if not thousands of hitters. But you're not looking for an honest debate here. You're on an anti-Molina soapbox, which is your right, but your argument is dumb.

What I see with Molina is this. He is at his peak, offensively. The year he hit 22 HRs, maybe he got lucky and got under a few more balls that would have normally been doubles. That's it. It's statistical variation coupled with a player being at his peak, offensively.

Forget the first part with actual HR totals. Show me ten examples of guys, who went from six users of sub .700 OPS to two years of over .800 OPS at age 28?

Our resident historian, WOY, could only find three.

757690
05-25-2013, 12:17 PM
Getting under hits that are usually going to be doubles. I think Roger Maris said something similar to that about his 61 homer season. His previous career high was 39 that's a huge jump. The fact of the matter is stuff like that can happen for season or two.

As far as PEDs, at this point in the game it wouldn't surprise me if any player was found to use them, but lets save the accusations and finger pointing to when there is actual evidence to it like a connection to a biogenesis or a failed test.

Well, the Maris jump was projected by many at the time because of expansion and a weakening of the pitching talent pool. Much was written before the season that this would be season that someone broke Ruth's record. Teams as a whole hit around 20 more HR's that year than the previous year. And Maris did lead the league in HR's the year before. It really wasn't surprising, even at the time.

And I'm not make accusations. I have stated over and over again that I am not saying that Molina used PED's. I am saying that logic and research tells us that the most logical explanation of his recent power surge is that he is getting some unnatural help. I will gladly admit that another possible explanation is pure luck, as Beltway described. I just think the PED use is more logical and more likely, especially given who his hitting coach was, and who his manager was, and his change in physique.

Beltway
05-25-2013, 12:25 PM
Forget the first part with actual HR totals. Show me ten examples of guys, who went from six users of sub .700 OPS to two years of over .800 OPS at age 28?

Our resident historian, WOY, could only find three.
This is such a waste of time because you're wrong on all counts. None of the players mentioned, had six seasons of sub .700 OPS followed by years of .800+ OPS at age 28, not even Yadier Molina. I don't think you have the slightest idea what you're even talking about. You're just on a soapbox. So I'll leave you alone to shout at the world.

Good luck.

757690
05-25-2013, 12:32 PM
This is such a waste of time because you're wrong on all counts. None of the players mentioned, had six seasons of sub .700 OPS followed by years of .800+ OPS at age 28, not even Yadier Molina. I don't think you have the slightest idea what you're even talking about. You're just on a soapbox. So I'll leave you alone to shout at the world.

Good luck.

Sorry, my bad, I meant six years averaging below .700 OPS.

I'm just shouting facts. Ignore them if you will. :)

jlcomo
05-25-2013, 12:36 PM
This is such a waste of time because you're wrong on all counts. None of the players mentioned, had six seasons of sub .700 OPS followed by years of .800+ OPS at age 28, not even Yadier Molina. I don't think you have the slightest idea what you're even talking about. You're just on a soapbox. So I'll leave you alone to shout at the world.

Good luck.

Molina's OPS by year:

2007- .708
2008- .740
2009- .749
2010- .671
2011- .814
2012- .874

Outside of one bad year in 2010 it was trending in the .800+ direction. Also a players Prime Years are usually between Age 28 and 32. It's natural for a players best numbers to go on an uptick during that time. Which in Molina's case obviously they did.

And by the way I don't know anybody that would call a 22 homerun year an above average power year. 22 homeruns is maybe slightly above average if anything.

Beltway
05-25-2013, 12:44 PM
Sorry, my bad, I meant six years averaging below .700 OPS.

I'm just shouting facts. Ignore them if you will. :)
Molina went from a career OPS of .688 to .733 over the last seasons. Conspiracy!

I know I shouldn't haven't responded to this and I feel kind of dirty defending a Cardinals player this much, but bad arguments bother me even more. I'm done for realz now.

757690
05-25-2013, 12:58 PM
Molina's OPS by year:

2007- .708
2008- .740
2009- .749
2010- .671
2011- .814
2012- .874

Outside of one bad year in 2010 it was trending in the .800+ direction. Also a players Prime Years are usually between Age 28 and 32. It's natural for a players best numbers to go on an uptick during that time. Which in Molina's case obviously they did.

And by the way I don't know anybody that would call a 22 homerun year an above average power year. 22 homeruns is maybe slightly above average if anything.

When studying trend lines, you can't just toss out individual years that don't fit the story you want to tell. The fact that he had one of his worse years, right before his power explosion, actually provides more reason to be suspicious than less.

And Yadi was 28th overall in the league in HR's last year. I'd say that's well above average.

jlcomo
05-25-2013, 01:11 PM
When studying trend lines, you can't just toss out individual years that don't fit the story you want to tell. The fact that he had one of his worse years, right before his power explosion, actually provides more reason to be suspicious than less.

And Yadi was 28th overall in the league in HR's last year. I'd say that's well above average.

Spin, spin, spin, spin, spin.

So because he had 1 bad year followed by a good year that proves your point? The fact of the matter is his career was trending up anyways and having one bad year doesn't change that.

You're making yourself look dumb with this charade in trying to prove Molina uses Steroids. Saying Molina uses Steroids because you read it on other message boards is like me saying Joey Votto is gay because it's been whispered for years on other message boards.

757690
05-25-2013, 01:17 PM
Spin, spin, spin, spin, spin.

So because he had 1 bad year followed by a good year that proves your point? The fact of the matter is his career was trending up anyways and having one bad year doesn't change that.

You're making yourself look dumb with this charade in trying to prove Molina uses Steroids. Saying Molina uses Steroids because you read it on other message boards is like me saying Joey Votto is gay because it's been whispered for years on other message boards.

There is factual evidence that taken as a whole, strongly suggests Molina did something unnatural to gain a significant amount of power in a very short time.

Throwing the Votto/gay rumor out there is just silly. To be honest, it might be true, and who cares? The point is that there is no factual evidence to back it up.

SpiritofStLouis
05-25-2013, 01:18 PM
When studying trend lines, you can't just toss out individual years that don't fit the story you want to tell. The fact that he had one of his worse years, right before his power explosion, actually provides more reason to be suspicious than less.

And Yadi was 28th overall in the league in HR's last year. I'd say that's well above average.

You didn't have any problem throwing out Votto's significant drop in HRs last year. I think you wrote it up to " coming off an injury ". Well, Molina missed 26 games in 2010 (the most in his career since he became a starter), and his statistics reflected it.

Face facts, your supposition that Yadi's increased power numbers over the last 2 years might be due to PED use is flawed. Even fellow Reds fans have admitted as much.

Cut your losses and move on, you're acting foolish.

SpiritofStLouis
05-25-2013, 01:20 PM
There is factual evidence that taken as a whole, strongly suggests Molina did something unnatural to gain a significant amount of power in a very short time.

Throwing the Votto/gay rumor out there is just silly. To be honest, it might be true, and who cares? The point is that there is no factual evidence to back it up.

Game, set, match. ;)

JayStubbs
05-25-2013, 01:35 PM
I don't think Molina used steroids. However, 757690 has presented a well-reasoned, factually based case on why he is suspicious that Molina did. It's not flawed, it's just not compelling, at least to me.

While I don't think that Molina used steroids, I do understand why someone might think he did. There definitely is enough evidence to raise suspicion.

jlcomo
05-25-2013, 01:49 PM
I don't think Molina used steroids. However, 757690 has presented a well-reasoned, factually based case on why he is suspicious that Molina did. It's not flawed, it's just not compelling, at least to me.

While I don't think that Molina used steroids, I do understand why someone might think he did. There definitely is enough evidence to raise suspicion.

What evidence? His numbers were trending up and he entered his prime. Pujols' best years were in his Age 28 and 29 years too. He had a bad year in 2010 and then he got right back to where he was trending before the bad year. Players have bad years all the time then bounce back. He also dealt with injury problems in 2010. He only missed about 20 games that year but he played hurt part of the year too.

redhat
05-25-2013, 04:03 PM
The question isn't how good Molina is. He's very good.

The question is how did he get this good?

Baseball players just don't suddenly, at age 28, go from 6 years of .688 OPS to over two years of .840 OPS.
Molina's OPS by year and age:

2005 (22) .653
2006 (23) .595
2007 (24) .708
2008 (25) .741
2009 (26) .749
2010 (27) .671
2011 (28) .814
2012 (29) .874
2013 (30) .796

He had the typical sophomore slump in 2006 and a down year in 2010, but otherwise there is nothing "sudden" about his OPS in 2011 & 2012. There's a steady rise which is typical of players in the big leagues, and a peak at 29 which is typical for catchers.

757690
05-25-2013, 04:28 PM
Molina's OPS by year and age:

2005 (22) .653
2006 (23) .595
2007 (24) .708
2008 (25) .741
2009 (26) .749
2010 (27) .671
2011 (28) .814
2012 (29) .874
2013 (30) .796

He had the typical sophomore slump in 2006 and a down year in 2010, but otherwise there is nothing "sudden" about his OPS in 2011 & 2012. There's a steady rise which is typical of players in the big leagues, and a peak at 29 which is typical for catchers.

His steady improvement in OPS was OBP driven up until 2009, then, in 2011 and 2012 it was homer driven.

Age HR
21 - 2
22 - 8
23 - 6
24 - 6
25 - 7
26 - 6
27 - 6
28 - 14
29 - 22

Absolutely no steady progression there. Very low for 6 years, then two big power years out of nowhere.

Also, the fact that Molina was injured in 2010 only adds to more suspicion. Most players start using PED's to help recover faster from injury. It's very plausible that that is why Molina used them, and they had a lingering effect for the next two seasons. His power has dropped off this year, which also supports that narrative. One more piece of evidence is his physique. He got significantly bigger in 2011-12, and then thinned down this year.

redhat
05-25-2013, 04:31 PM
There is so much testing today, players can't get away with PEDs like they once did. But if you're looking for a reason, perhaps being in better shape the past couple of years did it for Yadi. He had always been round like his brothers, but dropped weight before the 2011 season and even more before the 2012 season.

Moreover, his OBP also increased in 2011 and 2012, and he also started hitting a lot more doubles. Not to mention only a small drop in OPS this year, although he's hit only 2 HR (small sample size caveat).

757690
05-25-2013, 04:43 PM
There is so much testing today, players can't get away with PEDs like they once did. But if you're looking for a reason, perhaps being in better shape the past couple of years did it for Yadi. He had always been round like his brothers, but dropped weight before the 2011 season and even more before the 2012 season.

Moreover, his OBP also increased in 2011 and 2012, and he also started hitting a lot more doubles. Not to mention only a small drop in OPS this year, although he's hit only 2 HR (small sample size caveat).

There really isn't a lot of testing right now. It's random. Most players are not tested. The fact that some MLB players have been caught only suggests that there are more that have not.

Because it's random, and the penelties are so light, it's worth it for players to take the risk. Look what happened to Melky Cabrera. He got caught, and his punishment was a $16M two year deal, more than he would have gotten had he stayed clean.

And considering that Molina signed a big contract after his first big year means that if he did use PED's and he is caught, he's already won.

ajswartz888
05-25-2013, 04:50 PM
There really isn't a lot of testing right now. It's random. Most players are not tested. The fact that some MLB players have been caught only suggests that there are more that have not.

Because it's random, and the penelties are so light, it's worth it for players to take the risk. Look what happened to Melky Cabrera. He got caught, and his punishment was a $16M two year deal, more than he would have gotten had he stayed clean.

And considering that Molina signed a big contract after his first big year means that if he did use PED's and he is caught, he's already won.
You have a serious obsession with Yadier Molina don't you. Jealous much? Wow But I am betting you would love him if he was the Reds catcher. Jealous people crack me up.

757690
05-25-2013, 05:07 PM
You have a serious obsession with Yadier Molina don't you. Jealous much? Wow But I am betting you would love him if he was the Reds catcher. Jealous people crack me up.

I have already said he's one of the best, if not the best catcher in the league. Of course I would want him on the Reds, and I would just hope he doesn't get caught ;)

Actually, my obsession is with PED players. I think we are fooling ourselves if we think the Steroid Era is over. It's not as bad as it was from 1995-2005, but there are still plenty of players using PED's. The testing isn't often enough and the penelties aren't strong enough to detract many from using them.

ajswartz888
05-25-2013, 05:14 PM
I have already said he's one of the best, if not the best catcher in the league. Of course I would want him on the Reds, and I would just hope he doesn't get caught ;)

Actually, my obsession is with PED players. I think we are fooling ourselves if we think the Steroid Era is over. It's not as bad as it was from 1995-2005, but there are still plenty of players using PED's. The testing isn't often enough and the penelties aren't strong enough to detract many from using them.
We don't agree on much but I will agree that the penalties aren't enough. I wish the first time caught would be a whole year suspension. Second time, you're out for good. As far as whether they test often enough I don't know. I have no information on how often a player gets tested. I would love to know if anyone has access to that info.

foxfire123
05-25-2013, 05:20 PM
Technically, I'm sure a good lawyer could argue that the incident didn't fall under the scope of a " baseball related injury "

You're kind of forgetting the fact the LaRue himself said he lost count of the number of concussions he's had, starting with high school football and going into a MLB career, when it got past 10...

Not discounting that it was wrong on Cueto's part, but I have to give the guy a benefit of the doubt myself. I have panic attacks when put into crowded, trapped situations. To be perfectly honest, you trap me in a scrum like that, and I'd probably take anybody out at the knees, cojones or even head to get out of it. *NOBODY* knows how they would react when they feel panicked or trapped, NOBODY. So boasting "I'd never do that" is bupkis IMO.

and you're also forgetting that dear Chris Carpenter has to accept at least some of the blame--He'd have kept his mouth shut and not made some smart-alec remark that got round 2 going, and the kick would have never happened.

Salukifan2
05-25-2013, 05:33 PM
This is almost as ridiculous as the "Molina is overrated" discussion

ajswartz888
05-25-2013, 05:41 PM
You're kind of forgetting the fact the LaRue himself said he lost count of the number of concussions he's had, starting with high school football and going into a MLB career, when it got past 10...

Not discounting that it was wrong on Cueto's part, but I have to give the guy a benefit of the doubt myself. I have panic attacks when put into crowded, trapped situations. To be perfectly honest, you trap me in a scrum like that, and I'd probably take anybody out at the knees, cojones or even head to get out of it. *NOBODY* knows how they would react when they feel panicked or trapped, NOBODY. So boasting "I'd never do that" is bupkis IMO.

and you're also forgetting that dear Chris Carpenter has to accept at least some of the blame--He'd have kept his mouth shut and not made some smart-alec remark that got round 2 going, and the kick would have never happened.
And you are forgetting that if dear Brandon Phillips keeps his mouth shut, NONE of it ever happens. He was the root of the incident. Him and his big mouth. That's what's up.

RedlegJake
05-25-2013, 08:16 PM
Feesy see ya. I'm betting your first post gets ya kicked. Foul language...troll remarks...incendiary intent.

EMAW
05-26-2013, 09:21 AM
Reds- Phillips
Cards- Molina
Brewers- Braun
Pirates- McCutchen
Cubs- Castro

Old school 1983
05-26-2013, 09:37 AM
Well, the Maris jump was projected by many at the time because of expansion and a weakening of the pitching talent pool. Much was written before the season that this would be season that someone broke Ruth's record. Teams as a whole hit around 20 more HR's that year than the previous year. And Maris did lead the league in HR's the year before. It really wasn't surprising, even at the time.

And I'm not make accusations. I have stated over and over again that I am not saying that Molina used PED's. I am saying that logic and research tells us that the most logical explanation of his recent power surge is that he is getting some unnatural help. I will gladly admit that another possible explanation is pure luck, as Beltway described. I just think the PED use is more logical and more likely, especially given who his hitting coach was, and who his manager was, and his change in physique.

I was just saying he actually said everything came together for those two years and he was hitting balls out that he'd normally hit for doubles. He was a pretty good power hitter before that, but still we are talking about a guy who didnt get over 300 for his career hitting 39 then 61 in back to back seasons.

RedlegJake
05-26-2013, 10:08 AM
First the whole fight incident is history. The players have put it behind them. Molina and Cards and Phillips and Reds met in the tunnel and hashed it out and put it aside. Bad things happen in a melee...it was a bad incident and is not indicative of either team's professionalism. Also before the fight both sides had been running their mouths. BP was responding to remarks made by Cardinal players. They should both sides have let it go but in the heat of a race stuff can escalate. Cueto will live with that fight forever. Of course, LaRue will. These guys know each other. Fans that think Cueto intended to maim Jason are just stupid rabble rousers. The only ones still upset over the fight are fans. And maybe media drones with an angle to incite.

It was an affair neither team should be proud of...and I would bet they aren't.

Molina and PEDs. I find it irresponsible to suggest any player used PEDs without clearcut evidence and the stat line is NOT evidence. MLB has testing and policies. The question is not how good they are...but whether or not a guy gets caught. It does seem like jealous spite to infer or hope an opponents player is "dirty". Hanigan and Mes make a strong tandem but Yadi is 2d only to Posey imo.

Old school 1983
05-26-2013, 01:46 PM
First the whole fight incident is history. The players have put it behind them. Molina and Cards and Phillips and Reds met in the tunnel and hashed it out and put it aside. Bad things happen in a melee...it was a bad incident and is not indicative of either team's professionalism. Also before the fight both sides had been running their mouths. BP was responding to remarks made by Cardinal players. They should both sides have let it go but in the heat of a race stuff can escalate. Cueto will live with that fight forever. Of course, LaRue will. These guys know each other. Fans that think Cueto intended to maim Jason are just stupid rabble rousers. The only ones still upset over the fight are fans. And maybe media drones with an angle to incite.

It was an affair neither team should be proud of...and I would bet they aren't.

Molina and PEDs. I find it irresponsible to suggest any player used PEDs without clearcut evidence and the stat line is NOT evidence. MLB has testing and policies. The question is not how good they are...but whether or not a guy gets caught. It does seem like jealous spite to infer or hope an opponents player is "dirty". Hanigan and Mes make a strong tandem but Yadi is 2d only to Posey imo.

Well put. I agree with every last bit.

MikeThierry
05-27-2013, 08:26 AM
When studying trend lines, you can't just toss out individual years that don't fit the story you want to tell. The fact that he had one of his worse years, right before his power explosion, actually provides more reason to be suspicious than less.

And Yadi was 28th overall in the league in HR's last year. I'd say that's well above average.

Brandon Phillips:

2003- .553 OPS 6 HR
2004- injury or minor leagues
2005- injury or minor leagues
2006- .751 OPS 17 HR

STEROIDSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In all seriousness, your measure for suspicion is just stupid. You can go through practically anyone's career and find where they had a down year and have a great year the next year. It happens all the time in baseball.

MikeThierry
05-27-2013, 08:31 AM
Lets do more of 757690 goofy speculation:

Johnny Bench:

1971 .772 OPS 27 HR
1972 .920 OPS 40 HR

STEROIDS@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

Jay Bruce:

2009- .773 OPS
2010- .846 OPS


STEROIDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

757690
05-27-2013, 09:30 AM
Lets do more of 757690 goofy speculation:

Johnny Bench:

1971 .772 OPS 27 HR
1972 .920 OPS 40 HR

STEROIDS@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

Jay Bruce:

2009- .773 OPS
2010- .846 OPS


STEROIDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

I have already been over this, and I know no one else wants to talk about this again, but I just can't let such an uninformed set of posts go by.

It's not just one bad year and then a good year. It's six well below power years of single digit HR's to start ones career, than at age 28, suddenly jumping to 14 HR's and the pm 22 HR's.

Age HR
21 - 2
22 - 8
23 - 6
24 - 6
25 - 7
26 - 6
27 - 6
28 - 14
29 - 22

That is a startling yearly progression to start ones career. We have seen progessions like this, however, from players who we know used steroids. Guys like Brady Anderson and Steve Finley. Add in the fact that Molina was coming off of an injury, which is when many players use PED's to help them heal faster, and that Molina's batting coach was Mark McGwire, and his manager Tony LaRussa, both of whom are notorious for their history with PED's, and it's only logical to be suspicious.

And remember, I'm only saying we should be suspicious. I am not saying the Molina definitely used PED's.

MikeThierry
05-27-2013, 09:39 AM
I have already been over this, and I know no one else wants to talk about this again, but I just can't let such an uninformed set of posts go by.

It's not just one bad year and then a good year. It's six well below power years of single digit HR's to start ones career, than at age 28, suddenly jumping to 14 HR's and the pm 22 HR's.

Age HR
21 - 2
22 - 8
23 - 6
24 - 6
25 - 7
26 - 6
27 - 6
28 - 14
29 - 22

That is a startling yearly progression to start ones career. We have seen progessions like this, however, from players who we know used steroids. Guys like Brady Anderson and Steve Finley. Add in the fact that Molina was coming off of an injury, which is when many players use PED's to help them heal faster, and that Molina's batting coach was Mark McGwire, and his manager Tony LaRussa, both of whom are notorious for their history with PED's, and it's only logical to be suspicious.

And remember, I'm only saying we should be suspicious. I am not saying the Molina definitely used PED's.

Again... that's your argument? Jumping from 6 to 14 homeruns isn't a monumental paradigm shift where you can conclude that someone is on PED's. In fact, the numbers I put up for Brandon Phillips shows that his increase was more substantial than Molina's.

Also, you can say all you want that you aren't saying that Molina is definitely using PED's but your argument is all but giving a guarantee that he is. It's as lazy of an argument as the whole "Cardinals are lucky" mantra that gets batted around here on a daily basis. It's this kind of tripe as to why I have stopped coming here as much as I did. I'm dealing with too much in my life via health issues to come out here and waste my time on disgusting posts and disgusting accusations. Coming on this forum is not really fun anymore like it used to be.

757690
05-27-2013, 09:58 AM
Again... that's your argument? Jumping from 6 to 14 homeruns isn't a monumental paradigm shift where you can conclude that someone is on PED's. In fact, the numbers I put up for Brandon Phillips shows that his increase was more substantial than Molina's.

Also, you can say all you want that you aren't saying that Molina is definitely using PED's but your argument is all but giving a guarantee that he is. It's as lazy of an argument as the whole "Cardinals are lucky" mantra that gets batted around here on a daily basis. It's this kind of tripe as to why I have stopped coming here as much as I did. I'm dealing with too much in my life via health issues to come out here and waste my time on disgusting posts and disgusting accusations. Coming on this forum is not really fun anymore like it used to be.

Again, you are misstating my argument. It's not just jumping one year from 6 to 14. If that was all that happened, no one would even care.

My argument is that all the evidence taken together, it's the six plus years of low hR totals, then a sudden jump at the age of 28 to two high HR totals. Plus all the personel stuff.

Is not tripe and its not disgusting. It's factual and logical.

What if a pitcher suddenly, after six years of 4+ ERA's suddenly had two years of sub 3 ERA's? Wouldn't that at jump out at you? Wouldn't you wonder why that happened? It's logical for a rational mind to see such alarming trends and ask what caused it. That's all I am doing.

Btw, I've been in and out of hospitals my whole life, so sincerely mean it when I say I hope you are better.

CardsFanBob
05-28-2013, 03:28 PM
Some absolute ridiculousness in this thread from Molina being the 8th best catcher in the NL, to the Reds having something like 6 players better than the Cards best, to Yadi now being a steroid user.

The first two are just so ridiculous, they don't deserve conversation.

The last one I would argue this: Yadi was not prepared, as an offensive player, to be in the bigs when he got to St. Louis. He was rushed to St. Louis because he was so exceptional defensively, which the numbers support. He's had to learn how to hit in the hardest league in the world, MLB.

In addition, Yadi was a chunky kid. Hell, he's still has a JLo booty. But the dude has transformed much of his body. With a better, stronger athlete comes better, stronger numbers.

MikeThierry
05-28-2013, 10:47 PM
triple post

MikeThierry
05-28-2013, 10:49 PM
triple post

MikeThierry
05-28-2013, 10:49 PM
please delete these posts. Forum went wacky on me.

MikeThierry
05-28-2013, 10:50 PM
gahh... internets exploded :D

MikeThierry
05-28-2013, 10:51 PM
Again, you are misstating my argument. It's not just jumping one year from 6 to 14. If that was all that happened, no one would even care.

My argument is that all the evidence taken together, it's the six plus years of low hR totals, then a sudden jump at the age of 28 to two high HR totals. Plus all the personel stuff.

Is not tripe and its not disgusting. It's factual and logical.

What if a pitcher suddenly, after six years of 4+ ERA's suddenly had two years of sub 3 ERA's? Wouldn't that at jump out at you? Wouldn't you wonder why that happened? It's logical for a rational mind to see such alarming trends and ask what caused it. That's all I am doing.

Btw, I've been in and out of hospitals my whole life, so sincerely mean it when I say I hope you are better.


Actually, it is a tripe argument and a disgusting accusation on your part. It would be on par with someone coming in here and foolishly linking Votto to PED's. It's annoying to see people throw out the lazy PED argument without any evidence to back it up, esp. in the case of Molina where his overall statistics behind the numbers (line drive rates, K rates, etc) would lend itself to a player taking the step forward when that player loses weight or gets in better shape. As Cardsfanbob noted, Molina for a while was not exactly in the best shape and had room to lose weight. It's no mystery as to when he started losing weight, his power numbers increased a bit.

Aside from that, thank you. I'm probably going to be having surgery soon so I won't be on the boards for a while during these summer months.

757690
05-29-2013, 02:28 AM
Actually, it is a tripe argument and a disgusting accusation on your part. It would be on par with someone coming in here and foolishly linking Votto to PED's. It's annoying to see people throw out the lazy PED argument without any evidence to back it up, esp. in the case of Molina where his overall statistics behind the numbers (line drive rates, K rates, etc) would lend itself to a player taking the step forward when that player loses weight or gets in better shape. As Cardsfanbob noted, Molina for a while was not exactly in the best shape and had room to lose weight. It's no mystery as to when he started losing weight, his power numbers increased a bit.

Aside from that, thank you. I'm probably going to be having surgery soon so I won't be on the boards for a while during these summer months.

First and most importantly, good luck with the surgery, I hope you get the good drugs :alcohol:

Second, I provided plenty of evidence to back my argument. You can choose to disagree with it, but it's there. Btw, unlike steroids, HGH results in weight loss and more power, because it makes your bat quicker. Just saying.

There is no such evidence against Votto, so it's nothing like accusing him. But if he were to suddenly hit 50 homers, I absolutely would be suspicious of him and the very first thought I would have would be PED's.

Again, I sincerely hope you get better. You definitely will be missed on this sit while you recover. :thumbup:

Don Cameron
05-29-2013, 10:18 AM
I see no evidence or correlation with Molina's home run numbers and possible enhancement. If Molina went from 6 to 14 to 45... then, there may be something to look at.

But 28-32 in baseball are generally the prime years. Molina has figured it out.

Quit hating on a great player.

Don Cameron.

Lover of Greatness

CardsFanBob
05-29-2013, 10:43 AM
Actually, it is a tripe argument and a disgusting accusation on your part. It would be on par with someone coming in here and foolishly linking Votto to PED's. It's annoying to see people throw out the lazy PED argument without any evidence to back it up, esp. in the case of Molina where his overall statistics behind the numbers (line drive rates, K rates, etc) would lend itself to a player taking the step forward when that player loses weight or gets in better shape. As Cardsfanbob noted, Molina for a while was not exactly in the best shape and had room to lose weight. It's no mystery as to when he started losing weight, his power numbers increased a bit.

Aside from that, thank you. I'm probably going to be having surgery soon so I won't be on the boards for a while during these summer months.


If you look at both of Yadi's brothers, their offensive performance increased greatly as they got older. Not quite as good as Yadi's, but they weren't Yadi's caliber of athlete.



First and most importantly, good luck with the surgery, I hope you get the good drugs :alcohol:

Second, I provided plenty of evidence to back my argument. You can choose to disagree with it, but it's there. Btw, unlike steroids, HGH results in weight loss and more power, because it makes your bat quicker. Just saying.

There is no such evidence against Votto, so it's nothing like accusing him. But if he were to suddenly hit 50 homers, I absolutely would be suspicious of him and the very first thought I would have would be PED's.

Again, I sincerely hope you get better. You definitely will be missed on this sit while you recover. :thumbup:


Yadi always had a quick bat. Always. Why do you think he has a cannon for an arm? Quick hands and arms. And he's never struck out so much. If anything, he struggled with waiting for breaking balls and hitting the ball to the opposite field. I'd also suggest that when he took over as the starting catcher, he had huge shoes to fill (coming in after Matheny). I think that he was so worried about being a great receiver and helping pitchers that the offense naturally suffered. The more comfortable he's become; the better offensive player he's become.

MillerTime58
05-29-2013, 12:06 PM
Did anyone actually discuss the original topic in this thread? lol

Here's my list:

Reds - Joey Votto
Cardinals - Yadier Molina
Pirates - Andrew McCutcheon
Brewers - Jean Segura
Cubs - Anthony Rizzo

RedsBaron
06-01-2013, 07:44 PM
Did anyone actually discuss the original topic in this thread? lol

Here's my list:

Reds - Joey Votto
Cardinals - Yadier Molina
Pirates - Andrew McCutcheon

I agree with those and don't care enough about theBrewers or Cubs to comment.
Votto, Molina and McCutcheon are easy picks.

TheBlownLead
06-04-2013, 04:48 PM
Chapman for the most part is a non factor for the Reds this year so far. There are 3-4 other pitchers in the pen that could do what he has done so far and maybe better. Right now the most important player this team can't lose is Phillips. His defense, hustle and such and no other option at second is the man.

I agree that they can't lose Phillips. Hopefully they can maintain while he is out. I am ok with Bruce in the 5 hole, but he is not clean up hitter, not yet anyway.