5/29/13 Reds v. Indians - same teams, different ballpark

[NebraskaRed]

Reds:

CF: Shin-Soo Choo
SS: Zack Cozart
1B: Joey Votto
2B: Brandon Phillips
RF: Jay Bruce
3B: Todd Frazier
LF: Xavier Paul
C: Ryan Hanigan
DH: Jack Hannahan
SP: Bronson Arroyo

Indians:

CF: Michael Bourn
2B: Jason Kipnis
SS: Asdrubal Cabrera
1B: Nick Swisher
DH: Jason Giambi
C: Carlos Santana
3B: Mark Reynolds
LF: Michael Brantley
RF: Drew Stubbs
SP: Justin Masterson

[mdccclxix]

Is Santana going to stick at catcher? He's pretty poor back there and has maybe cost the indians both games this series with his gaffes.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Is Santana going to stick at catcher? He's pretty poor back there and has maybe cost the indians both games this series with his gaffes.

I think he will. He's got some good tools back there. I've seen him look outstanding at times. And then flat out foolish at other times. Concentration / focus issue at work maybe?


The question for Santana comes in the form of his defense. He’s athletic and agile behind the dish, but unrefined. HIs arm is strong but will lack accuracy, though his CS% improved significantly after he was traded from LA to Cleveland. His receiving skills are improving, but there is still work to do, especially on blocking balls in the dirt.


His arm is very good and he's a good blocker. But his receiving skills are terrible. And pitchers do not like throwing to him. The Indians have acknowledged these weaknesses.

"He has above average skills when it comes to catching and throwing," Ross Atkins, Indians Director of Player Development, told The Cleveland Plain Dealer prior to the 2009 season. "He still needs to refine his receiving skills, his game calling ability and his ability to lead a pitching staff."

A good receiver will catch the ball where it's thrown and hold it there. Poor receivers drop balls and move the ball after they catch it, taking away from the odds of the pitch being called a strike. Elite receivers have soft hands and are smooth and balanced behind the dish. Receiving is basically catching the ball. Guys who don't catch the ball well typically aren't above-average defensive catchers -- basic enough, right?

I believe that just about anyone can learn to call a good game. Some guys have a knack for it and others take time to learn. If I'm a pitcher and I'm having trouble communicating with my catcher, I'm frustrated. He's supposed to make me look good.

So are Santana's current defensive weaknesses going to force him to move off the position? I Doubt it.

But I wouldn't be shocked if he moves back to third base. And he may be a below-average catcher in the bigs. That said, you can't teach someone to throw as well as he does. His arm is definitely above-average. He's pretty coordinated, too. So all-in-all, Santana has a solid chance of becoming an average defensive catcher -- he is still new to the position.

2 scouting reports btw. Reps can only help at this stage IMO.

[Tom Servo]

DH: Jack Hannahan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDGlN6mluGA

[CySeymour]

If they are going to dh Hannahan, I think they should have at least DH'd Choo and put Robinson in CF.

[dsmith421]

How does it make sense to DH Hannahan when he is a better fielder than Frazier?

[Kcbuckeye22]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDGlN6mluGA

Nay. I figured Dusty had the need, the need for speed. Robinson Speed.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CUpwLhZh66A

[TOBTTReds]

Wow, you have a DH spot available, and Choo is in CF.

[REDREAD]

How does it make sense to DH Hannahan when he is a better fielder than Frazier?

I guess because Frazier had a day off yesterday, and Frasier is not a butcher, Dusty is just giving Todd a little bit of respect.

Same for not DHing Choo.

Dusty is big on having confidence in his players. It kind of sends the wrong message to DH a guy to slightly optimize the defense (in Dusty's mind).

Not saying this is the right way or wrong way, but I'm guessing that's the reasoning.

Plus, you got to figure that Frazier and Choo are going to be playing the field in the playoffs. Might as well give them all the reps possible.

[Kc61]

This is to give Hannahan some at bats, particularly against his former team in his former ballpark.

Dusty said last night that he wanted to give Hannahan two games in a row to give him some playing time.

If he had an obvious DH choice, he would have used him. He doesn't so Dusty is using the opportunity to use Hannahan, a good backup player who hasn't had much time this year.

I agree with Redread on why Frazier is playing third and Hannahan DH, rather than switching them.

The much more interesting question is who Dusty uses tomorrow against a lefty, since his only righty bats on the bench will be Izturis (switch hitter) and Mesoraco (backup catcher).

[medford]

This has seemingly been Dusty's MO when playing w/ the DH. He typically uses his regulars where they would typically play, rather than sliding a regular to the DH role and allowing a better defender to man that guys position.

My guess in his thinking is that his decision has little to do with "hurting a guys feelings" that he might put a better defender in at that spot for a game, this are not little kids, I think they can handle it for a game here and there, but rather that baseball is a repetative game and I've heard more than 1 regular complain about hard it is to DH, sitting on the bench for an inning or 2 at a time, getting 1 at bat, then sitting back on the bench for another inning or 2. Dusty likes to have his guys play their usual role, have them in their comfort zone, for better or worse.

[Red Raindog]

Wow, you have a DH spot available, and Choo is in CF.

I think Choo has looked better in CF lately -- not Eric Davis better though --- and he should know the outfield there as well as anyone on the team

[NebraskaRed]

I saw all of the comments and thought the game must have started early.

[MrRedLegger]

The quest to secure the Ohio Cup begins tonight! I have $10 riding on this series with my Indians fan roommate.

[NeilHamburger]

With all those tough lefties this lineup is quite the challenge for Bronson. Out of all 4 games with Cleveland this the pitching matchup I like least.

[dubc47834]

This place will erupt IF Choo has an error...lol

[RiverRat13]

Nobody owns Joey Votto.

[New York Red]

Joey apparently not impressed with Masterson's scoreless streak. :beerme:

[R_Webb18]

that guy named votto is pretty good

[Wonderful Monds]

Big cheer in Cleveland for Votto's HR

[New York Red]

Votto hitting .450 on the road this year. :laugh:

[NebraskaRed]

Votto matched his number of home runs for May (10) that he hit in his MVP year.

[Big Klu]

Updated Reds HR list (players in italics are active):

Reds 100-Home Run Club
1. Johnny Bench - 389
2. Frank Robinson - 324
3. Tony Perez - 287
4. Adam Dunn - 270
5. Ted Kluszewski - 251
6. George Foster - 244
7. Ken Griffey, Jr. - 210
8. Eric Davis - 203
9. Barry Larkin - 198
10. Vada Pinson - 186
11. Wally Post - 172
12. Gus Bell - 160
13. Joe Morgan - 152
13. Pete Rose - 152
15. Brandon Phillips - 150
16. Lee May - 147
17. Joey Votto - 143
18. Jay Bruce - 141
19. Dan Driessen - 133
20. Reggie Sanders - 125
21. Ernie Lombardi - 120
22. Sean Casey - 118
23. Frank McCormick - 110
24. Dave Parker - 107
25. Chris Sabo - 104
26. Dave Concepcion - 101

[NebraskaRed]

Updated Reds HR list (players in italics are active):

Reds 100-Home Run Club
1. Johnny Bench - 389
2. Frank Robinson - 324
3. Tony Perez - 287
4. Adam Dunn - 270
5. Ted Kluszewski - 251
6. George Foster - 244
7. Ken Griffey, Jr. - 210
8. Eric Davis - 203
9. Barry Larkin - 198
10. Vada Pinson - 186
11. Wally Post - 172
12. Gus Bell - 160
13. Joe Morgan - 152
13. Pete Rose - 152
15. Brandon Phillips - 150
16. Lee May - 147
17. Joey Votto - 143
18. Jay Bruce - 141
19. Dan Driessen - 133
20. Reggie Sanders - 125
21. Ernie Lombardi - 120
22. Sean Casey - 118
23. Frank McCormick - 110
24. Dave Parker - 107
25. Chris Sabo - 104
26. Dave Concepcion - 101

every time I see this I think, wow that Bench number is just insurmountable

[malcontent]

How does it make sense to DH Hannahan when he is a better fielder than Frazier?
It doesn't, of course. What can you say? Baker.

Speaking of which, if he were in the AL it would probably just be: DH bats 9th.

[Blitz Dorsey]

Using Hannahan as the DH is the most Dusty thing, ever.

[dubc47834]

Runnin the count to Choo and 2....actually 3-1!!!

[ProfessorTofty]

Choo takes a walk to continue the inning.

[coachpipe]

Indians fans are dirty. I wouldn't have dove into the crowd either if I were Xman

[Wonderful Monds]

Indians fans are dirty. I wouldn't have dove into the crowd either if I were Xman

It's mostly just Cleveland in general.

[Red Raindog]

Stubbs fans -- yawn

[Blitz Dorsey]

Leake should be offended he's not the DH tonight.

Really, it should be Lutz. Or Mesoraco. But this is Dusty Baker, y'alls!

[malcontent]

Leake should be offended he's not the DH tonight.

Really, it should be Lutz. Or Mesoraco. But this is Dusty Baker, y'alls!
I imagine we should be thankful it's not Izturis.

[Hollcat]

Leake should be offended he's not the DH tonight.

Really, it should be Lutz. Or Mesoraco. But this is Dusty Baker, y'alls!

If they DH Mes and then have to use him to catch doesn't that kill the DH and the pitcher would have to bat.

[RedlegJake]

Hanrahan has done alright lately...hardly the worst move Dusty ever made... c'mon...a bit of slack...save it for something really arguable

[sigep529]

From mlb.com's Scout tool on their Gameday app:

"Dangerous count for Justin Masterson; Joey Votto is a dead-red fastball hitter, with a 1.090 OPS against them this season and 1.034 against everything else."

ONLY 1.034.

[Blitz Dorsey]

If they DH Mes and then have to use him to catch doesn't that kill the DH and the pitcher would have to bat.

How often does the catcher get hurt though?

[Blitz Dorsey]

From mlb.com's Scout tool on their Gameday app:

"Dangerous count for Justin Masterson; Joey Votto is a dead-red fastball hitter, with a 1.090 OPS against them this season and 1.034 against everything else."

ONLY 1.034.

Haha! I know. What a useless stat. What a HUGE difference there in OPS. Hilarious.

[RedlegJake]

If the DH takes a fielding position you lose the DH

[Blitz Dorsey]

If the DH takes a fielding position you lose the DH

I hear you. I edited my post.

[RedlegJake]

A .56 diff for anyone else is significant...with Votto its meaningless because either number is outrageously good

[Kc61]

When I start thinking about pitch count, I know the opposition pitcher is tough.

Masterson has 69 pitches.

0-2 double by Cabrera off Arroyo. Curve ball didn't move much.

[Blitz Dorsey]

Are you freakin' serious, Welsh? You want to know if people in Columbus are both Reds and Indians fans ... and root for whoever is better that year? What an ignorant statement. If anything, the "rivalry" only really exists in Columbus. This is the only place you'll really find Reds and Indians fans who hate each other.

Really, Welsh? REALLY?

Thom set him straight. Kind of. Thom did point out that Columbus is a Reds town right now, at a 3-to-1 rate (based on TV ratings).

[Kc61]

2-1 Indians. Back to back doubles.

Arroyo goes 0-2 on Giambi who smashes a foul. Arroyo making the 0-2 pitches too good right now.

[redsfaninbsg]

Damage control here. Keep it close and get Masterson out of the game.

[foxfire123]

Someone please break that drummer's arms...

[kaldaniels]

Are you freakin' serious, Welsh? You want to know if people in Columbus are both Reds and Indians fans ... and root for whoever is better that year? What an ignorant statement. If anything, the "rivalry" only really exists in Columbus. This is the only place you'll really find Reds and Indians fans who hate each other.

Really, Welsh? REALLY?

Thom set him straight. Kind of. Thom did point out that Columbus is a Reds town right now, at a 3-to-1 rate (based on TV ratings).

My follow up would be to ask, what pray tell were the ratings when the Indians were good and the Reds bad.

[redsfaninbsg]

Big out there.

[ProfessorTofty]

Excellent play there to keep it 2-1.

[hebroncougar]

Hanigan did a great job of blocking the plate there. Fabulous.

[kaldaniels]

tOSU representin'

[Kc61]

I know Giambi is near the end and has lousy numbers this year. But he's a great hitter. That was some at bat.

[redsfaninbsg]

Thank you Indians.

[Red Raindog]

Thank you Giambi!

[redsfaninbsg]

Arroyo gets one out and two more gift wrapped.

[Chip R]

Thank you Giambi!

What was he thinking? :confused:

[_Sir_Charles_]

Okay, seriously....what was Giambi thinking there?!?

[Blitz Dorsey]

Chris Welsh with the all-time dumbest question on a Reds broadcast. George Grande, you're off the hook, buddy.

"Did Skyline originate in Cincinnati?" -- George Grande (either his first or second year as a Reds broadcaster in the early 90's)

[_Sir_Charles_]

It's like he goes up there to interview those people (and Bernie Stowe) and never lets them utter a word. Just weird.

[kaldaniels]

Talk about running yourself out of an inning. Arroyo was on the ropes.

[Wonderful Monds]

I think the idea behind the Giambi steal was that the shift was on. That's all I got.

[Wonderful Monds]

Hannahan not having the most patient night.

[redsfaninbsg]

That helps the pitch count. Sometimes I wish they just had the pitcher up.

[dsmith421]

The list of guys that have DHed for the Reds in interleague play would make your face melt off. A bigger string of no-hopers and Juan Castros I cannot imagine.

[redsfaninbsg]

Huge at bat here.

[Kc61]

88 pitches for Masterson.

[Chip R]

I think the idea behind the Giambi steal was that the shift was on. That's all I got.

If it were Stubbs or Bourne, I could see it. But Giambi? Plus you don't make the 1st or last out at 3rd.

[_Sir_Charles_]

#*@%! He smoked that one. Right at 1st. Inning over.

[redsfaninbsg]

At least he's over 90 pitches, one more inning should get him.

[nate]

Chat is open!

[OGB]

Ah, hit hard but right at him. Minor consolation is that Masterson hopefully only has one inning left in him before giving way to that atrocious bullpen.

[dsmith421]

I thought the DH was supposed to help you score.

[Red Raindog]

Okay, seriously....what was Giambi thinking there?!?

That he could not score from second on a triple?

[Kc61]

Ah, hit hard but right at him. Minor consolation is that Masterson hopefully only has one inning left in him before giving way to that atrocious bullpen.

Don't know. Masterson regularly throws over 100 pitches and earlier this month went 118 pitches.

He also is toughest in the middle innings, and also is tough late. Usually they need to get to him early.

Guy is a good pitcher, this will be tough, although the Indians running themselves out of that last inning sure helped matters.

[Tadasimha]

Going back on top this inning - just have a feeling

[_Sir_Charles_]

That ground right in front of the dish is rock hard.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Single and error as Phillips and Bruce reach.

[ProfessorTofty]

Frazier hit by pitch, the Reds have got bases loaded!

[Kc61]

LOL, no way XPaul gets a fastball.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Frazier plunked. Bases jacked, no outs.

Tadasimha looking like a prophet. :O)

[R_Webb18]

ouch

[Red Raindog]

wow -- was that bad!

[ProfessorTofty]

Argh. Double play, including the runner going for home. Still got runners at second and third, though.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Crap. 1-2-3 dp. *sigh*

[Red Raindog]

LOL, no way XPaul gets a fastball.

he has no idea with this pitcher

[CySeymour]

Bad break

[Kc61]

he has no idea with this pitcher

Agree. Only a one run game, still not over. C'mon Hanny.

[ProfessorTofty]

And a fly to left to end the inning. Erk.

[Red Raindog]

has to be Dusty's fault

:evil:

[scott91575]

my mama always told me there would be days like this

[_Sir_Charles_]

Okay, that hurt. Loaded with no outs. Nuthin'. Meh.

[dubc47834]

No frackin way!!!

[Tadasimha]

Frazier plunked. Bases jacked, no outs.

Tadasimha looking like a prophet. :O)

An unprofitable prophet

Well, it was a good feeling for a while!

[redsfaninbsg]

If Cleveland doesn't score again, I think the Reds win.

[dubc47834]

has to be Dusty's fault

:evil:

Shoulda pinch hit cueto for X!!! Obvious call

[R_Webb18]

That def hurts. Even tho he's been wild as of late still glad he's finished b/c hard to hit still.

[Kc61]

Masterson with 9 ground ball outs through six innings. 105 pitches.

[dsmith421]

Remarkable job by the Reds in the last two innings, managing to turn three singles, a walk, a HBP, and an error into zero runs.

[Kc61]

Tigers lead Pirates 3-1 in the sixth. Royals Cards zip, zip.

[redsfaninbsg]

If Arroyo is fortunate enough to get through this inning without allowing a run, I would pull him.

[Tadasimha]

Sad state of affairs for Cleveland when Albert Belle is one of your teams' celebrated players.

On a more positive note, nice outing from Arroyo. Very efficient.

[OGB]

I love the Latin music some players have for their at bat song. I miss that about our current lineup. Hernandez had a great walk-up song.

And as I type that, Swisher strolls up to Who am I by Snoop Doggy Dogg...awesome!

[redsfaninbsg]

Please don't let this be the Arroyo blowup.

[Kc61]

First and third, two outs for the Indians. Arroyo talking to Hanny, but no indication of any pitching move.

Giambi up.

[OGB]

If Arroyo is fortunate enough to get through this inning without allowing a run, I would pull him.

I kinda agree, because he's gotten more hittable as the game has progressed. If he gets Giambi, though, he'd be facing 6-7-8 next inning.

[redsfaninbsg]

Is anybody warming up?

[Tadasimha]

Well, crap

[redsfaninbsg]

It's the Arroyo blowup.

[OGB]

Ouch

Spoke too soon

[Tadasimha]

Is anybody warming up?

Pretty soon there will be

[redsfaninbsg]

You can just see it a mile away.

[Wonderful Monds]

Please don't let this be the Arroyo blowup.

Sorry pal.

[Blitz Dorsey]

Where does using a defensive-minded, offensive-challenged player as a DH rank in the history of idiotic decisions by Dusty?

[_Sir_Charles_]

*sigh* Well, that stinks.

[ThatPitchIsDunn]

Giambi sure has hit the Reds well for coming in at like .150.

[Kc61]

This lineup is a terrible matchup for Arroyo. In restrospect, this pitching matchup was stacked against the Reds.

Now another shot, Arroyo is getting smacked around.

[dsmith421]

Where does using a defensive-minded, offensive-challenged player as a DH rank in the history of idiotic decisions by Dusty?

Where does not having a single hitter on the bench that is preferable to a defensive-minded, offensive-challenged player as a DH rank in the history of idiotic decisions by the front office?

[redsfaninbsg]

Giambi sure has hit the Reds well for coming in at like .150.

He's facing guys who throw at his hitting speed, no offense to Leake or Arroyo.

[ProfessorTofty]

Reds just paid big-time for their lack of run production in the last inning.

[ThatPitchIsDunn]

This lineup is a terrible matchup for Arroyo. In restrospect, this pitching matchup was stacked against the Reds.

Now another shot, Arroyo is getting smacked around.

All with 2 outs. Ugh.

[Blitz Dorsey]

Where does not having a single hitter on the bench that is preferable to a defensive-minded, offensive-challenged player as a DH rank in the history of idiotic decisions by the front office?

Meh. There's still far better options than Jack Hannahan on the current roster. Would you not agree? One of them is from Germany.

[Kc61]

Giambi sure has hit the Reds well for coming in at like .150.

Well, he's not exactly a novice at hitting, Giambi. Lifetime .923 OPS over 19 seasons. If anyone isn't going to be fooled by Arroyo's stuff, it's Giambi.

[Kingspoint]

Nice to have Cingrani ready for next year, so a mistake can't be made with Arroyo like it was made with Larkin and Rolen.

[OGB]

Now the stadium sound guy playing Bro Hymn? We should've swapped sound guys in the Choo-Stubbs deal because theirs seems awesome and ours is putrid.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Where does not having a single hitter on the bench that is preferable to a defensive-minded, offensive-challenged player as a DH rank in the history of idiotic decisions by the front office?

Yeah, cause I really want a NL team to design their roster for those occasional games where we need a DH. :D

[Wonderful Monds]

Meh. There's still far better options than Jack Hannahan on the current roster. Would you not agree? One of them is from Germany.

Lutz, Mesoraco both are better options.

It is like pinch hitting for Josh Hamilton with Juan Castro.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Well, he's not exactly a novice at hitting, Giambi. Lifetime .923 OPS over 19 seasons. If anyone isn't going to be fooled by Arroyo's stuff, it's Giambi.

Dude's got more grey than I do. LOL.

[NebraskaRed]

Hey, I'm not sure if anyone brought up the fact that Hannahan is the DH

;)

[dsmith421]

Meh. There's still far better options than Jack Hannahan on the current roster. Would you not agree? One of them is from Germany.

No, I don't. Lutz has played like 20 major league games. Robinson is chaff. Izturis is garbage. The organization has chosen for reasons that befuddle me not to go 3 catchers during interleague so we can use Mesoraco or Hanigan as the DH. At best it's a wash between Hannahan and Lutz.

Every time the team honks a game it's pile on Dusty time. Dusty didn't force Ondrusek to crap his pants last Sunday and Dusty did instruct XP to tap the ball to the pitcher with the bases loaded and no one out.

[kbrake]

Just get into that Cleveland bullpen and you never know.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Nice to have Cingrani ready for next year, so a mistake can't be made with Arroyo like it was made with Larkin and Rolen.

Really? I'd say that every MLB team would consider Bronson to be an asset. He's been pretty darned solid this year (and the last several). No reason to think he won't be fine next year too.

No, I'm not suggesting extending him. But then again, I'm not planning on depending on Cingrani either. I want Leake to fill Bronson's role and Chapman to FINALLY move into the rotation.

[Kc61]

Meh. There's still far better options than Jack Hannahan on the current roster. Would you not agree? One of them is from Germany.

How do you figure?

Hannahan has a lifetime .668 OPS in 1719 lifetime PAs. This year .594 in little playing time.

Lutz's OPS is .600 also a small sample. I'm skeptical whether Lutz will ever get 1719 lifetime at bats and would have a .668 OPS if he did.

[kaldaniels]

Nice to have Cingrani ready for next year, so a mistake can't be made with Arroyo like it was made with Larkin and Rolen.

There's a time and a place for this remark. Now is not it. Bronson has been solid for the past year and a half, and before that as well, excluding his illness-plagued 2011. No need to roll him under the bus in my opinion, he's paid his dues.

[OGB]

Where does using a defensive-minded, offensive-challenged player as a DH rank in the history of idiotic decisions by Dusty?

Any consideration for the fact this guy spent the past two years playing in this stadium? I liked the move. It clearly hasn't panned out, but I thought it was well-reasoned.
Then again, for many of you, as soon as anything doesn't go perfectly it's an excuse to verbally tar and feather our oft beleaguered manager.

[Blitz Dorsey]

No, I don't. Lutz has played like 20 major league games.

Well, everyone is entitled to be wrong.

I don't care how many MLB games Lutz has played. If you think Jack Hannahan is a better offensive option than him, good for you. I strongly disagree. (As I imagine almost everyone else would.)

[Blitz Dorsey]

as soon as anything doesn't go perfectly it's an excuse to verbally tar and feather our oft beleaguered manager.

Nice try, but I said before the game started that DH'ing Hannahan was ludicrous. Actually said it in a post last night after Dusty said he was doing so.

Again, nice try though.

[Redsfansince72]

what a lousy ABs in this inning.. i just got to comment now, i was hoping Para would have came in to face Giambi after his very good AB last time up.. game might still be 2-1..

[OGB]

Nice to have Cingrani ready for next year, so a mistake can't be made with Arroyo like it was made with Larkin and Rolen.

Really? One bad inning and you come out with this?
I agree that it's nice to have a young guy waiting in the wings who will be less expensive. Arroyo has had one--count them, one--bad season as a Red and it was injury plagued. He was excellent last year. Aside from a couple innings here and there, he's been exceptional this year. He hasn't missed a start in his life.
Relax

[foxfire123]

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Oh wait. It's. One. Game. Chill.

[dubc47834]

Where does using a defensive-minded, offensive-challenged player as a DH rank in the history of idiotic decisions by Dusty?

That hasn't lost this game. Having the bases loaded and no outs then not scoring a single run killed us tonite. Then the monthly Arroyo blow up didn't help.

[Blitz Dorsey]

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Oh wait. It's. One. Game. Chill.

Yeah, no one thinks the sky is falling. The Reds are one hell of a good team.

What some of us are concerned about is our manager continually making decisions that a good high school manager would never make. This might be why Dusty never does well in the postseason. Please find me a reasonable argument for using Jack Hannahan as the DH tonight.

[_Sir_Charles_]

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Oh wait. It's. One. Game. Chill.


Hang on. Screw the one game thing. Are you serious...the sky is falling?!? That's some scary stuff!!! *runs around screaming* :scared: :shocked: :explode:

[dsmith421]

Well, everyone is entitled to be wrong.

I don't care how many MLB games Lutz has played. If you think Jack Hannahan is a better offensive option than him, good for you. I strongly disagree. (As I imagine almost everyone else would.)

If "almost everyone else" refers to the know-it-alls that nitpick everything the man does despite the best record of any franchise in baseball since Opening Day 2012, then I'll own that.

[OGB]

Nice try, but I said before the game started that DH'ing Hannahan was ludicrous. Actually said it in a post last night after Dusty said he was doing so.

Again, nice try though.

"Nice try"? What do you think I have some agenda and I'm out to get you?

In general on this board, people will rip Dusty any time something goes wrong without considering the fact that the decision might have been well thought out or there might have been factors at play that we weren't privy to.
Congratulations on saying before the game that you didn't like Hannahan as the DH. Jocketty should hire you.
In the meantime, if you can't concede to the fact that while the decision to play him has yet to bear fruit, that it was a logically made choice, then you just show your true biased colors

[Tadasimha]

If "almost everyone else" refers to the know-it-alls that nitpick everything the man does despite the best record of any franchise in baseball since Opening Day 2012, then I'll own that.

Preach, brother! :beerme:

[Blitz Dorsey]

If "almost everyone else" refers to the know-it-alls that nitpick everything the man does despite the best record of any franchise in baseball since Opening Day 2012, then I'll own that.

You give credit to Dusty for that record; I'll give credit to Walt Jocketty, Bob Castellini, Bryan Price and Chris Buckley.

I would submit any "average" MLB manager would have the exact same record or better than what Dusty has posted over the last 1.5 years, given the stacked roster he has. We can argue this all day my friend.

[dsmith421]

What some of us are concerned about is our manager continually making decisions that a good high school manager would never make. This might be why Dusty never does well in the postseason. Please find me a reasonable argument for using Jack Hannahan as the DH tonight.

Because Hannahan is a member of the team and Dusty would like to get him a few at-bats in this series, but doesn't want to do it against Kazmir tomorrow. That's a perfectly reasonable explanation. You don't like it, but it's still absolutely reasonable.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Yeah, no one thinks the sky is falling. The Reds are one hell of a good team.

What some of us are concerned about is our manager continually making decisions that a good high school manager would never make. This might be why Dusty never does well in the postseason. Please find me a reasonable argument for using Jack Hannahan as the DH tonight.

He's a member on the team who has gotten very limited ab's and he's going to be needed going forward. He's also familiar with this stadium. Lastly, nothing says a DH has to be a power hitter. Hannahan can hit. At least as well as the other options.

You may disagree with it (in fact I'm certain that you do) but it IS a reasonable argument.

[dsmith421]

You give credit to Dusty for that record; I'll give credit to Walt Jocketty, Bob Castellini, Bryan Price and Chris Buckley.

I would submit any "average" MLB manager would have the exact same record or better than what Dusty has posted over the last 1.5 years, given the stacked roster he has. We can argue this all day my friend. I won't lose.

I give credit to all those individuals, including Dusty Baker. You don't, because you think you know better.

Also, just so you know, saying "I win" doesn't mean you win an argument. Unless you're five. Are you five? You seem like you might be five.

Also, counselor, please present your exhibits that prove an average manager would have done as well as Dusty since he took the Reds job. I can't WAIT to see this.

[Tadasimha]

Stay frosty, Logan - get yourself a 6-4-3 and let the bats get back to work!

[NebraskaRed]

I would submit any "average" MLB manager would have the exact same record or better than what Dusty has posted over the last 1.5 years, given the stacked roster he has. We can argue this all day my friend.

You're absolutely entitled to your opinion, and you have every right to state that opinion.

However, there's no sense debating anything having to do with Dusty if that's the opinion you have.

[Kc61]

You give credit to Dusty for that record; I'll give credit to Walt Jocketty, Bob Castellini, Bryan Price and Chris Buckley.

I would submit any "average" MLB manager would have the exact same record or better than what Dusty has posted over the last 1.5 years, given the stacked roster he has. We can argue this all day my friend.

Lutz has a .600 OPS. He's had a few good at bats, but I don't see the attraction.

Not seeing a much better alternative than Hannahan who hasn't hit that badly over a 7 year career.

[Tadasimha]

You give credit to Dusty for that record; I'll give credit to Walt Jocketty, Bob Castellini, Bryan Price and Chris Buckley.

I would submit any "average" MLB manager would have the exact same record or better than what Dusty has posted over the last 1.5 years, given the stacked roster he has. We can argue this all day my friend.

It's not that you won't lose, you just won't listen to any other possible p.o.v. in your over the top dislike of Dusty Baker.

[dubc47834]

All was well on Redszone till the Reds started losing...lol

[Blitz Dorsey]

Do we have an ignore function on this board? Needing to add a few people to it? TIA!

[_Sir_Charles_]

You give credit to Dusty for that record; I'll give credit to Walt Jocketty, Bob Castellini, Bryan Price and Chris Buckley.

I would submit any "average" MLB manager would have the exact same record or better than what Dusty has posted over the last 1.5 years, given the stacked roster he has. We can argue this all day my friend.

I give credit to EVERYONE in the organization personally. They all played their part. Look at how many teams over the years have not meshed well due to clubhouse conflicts and personality conflicts. Look at the Dodgers this year, the Blue Jays this year. Those are 2 VERY talented rosters. There is more to managing than what happens between the lines...it's what happens between the ears. And IMO, that's just as (if not MORE) important.

[dubc47834]

Do we have an ignore function on this board? Needing to add a few people to it? TIA!

I think you know that answer already!!!

[WVRedsFan]

Just dropped in to see what condition our condition was in...

Doesn't look good at present and Hannahan to DH left me scratching my head. Guess it had more to do with him being a lefty against a righthander. Dusty is Dusty. I've learned to accept it and move on. Yes, he makes some really questionable moves, but 3 of 4 championship seasons gives me pause, but not on a night like this for some reason. Mea Culpa.

[Tadasimha]

All was well on Redszone till the Reds started losing...lol

The negative nancies show up as soon as they have a bad inning.

[Blitz Dorsey]

I think you know that answer already!!!

If I knew the answer, you'd be added to the list.

:beerme:

[_Sir_Charles_]

Seriously....somebody steal that man's drumsticks....PLEASE!

[OGB]

I did not know that about the drum guy. That's awesome. He's kinda like if you wiped all of the cheese off of Chuck D.

[Gainesville Red]

The drums, man, enough.

I'd take the howl over the drums any day. (I think the howl is awful.)

[BluegrassRedleg]

That dude has seen A LOT of bad baseball.

[Tom Servo]

Just dropped in to see what condition our condition was in...
The Reds saw themselves crawling out as they were crawling in.

[Blitz Dorsey]

At least Chris Welsh thinks I'm now rooting for the Indians since I live in Columbus and people here decide which MLB team they like based on the result of that day's game. What an idiotic statement. Lost all my respect for Welsh. (Not that I had much for anyone who came up with the Don-Cherryesqe idea of "Bow Tie Tuesday.")

[Redsfansince72]

If Dusty is afraid to go to Para.. understandable, then the Reds need to look for a a lefty and use Ondrusek as trade bait maybe?

[dubc47834]

If I knew the answer, you'd be added to the list.

:beerme:

I didnt do anything...lol

[NebraskaRed]

So, KC is up 2-0 on the Cards. That's something...

[_Sir_Charles_]

TIA!

LOL. I had to look up what TIA meant. hehehe. Yep, I'm old. :O)

[Kc61]

If Dusty is afraid to go to Para.. understandable, then the Reds need to look for a a lefty and use Ondrusek as trade bait maybe?

When was Dusty afraid to go to Parra? He went to him last night in a tight game.

Not getting this.

And exactly who are we expecting to get for Ondrusek?

[Blitz Dorsey]

The negative nancies show up as soon as they have a bad inning.

Your passive-aggressive nonsense isn't impressive. Are you saying everyone who thinks Jack Hannahan shouldn't be a DH is a "negative nancy"? Very shallow-thinking on your part. I hope you can do better. Dusty has many positives. One of them isn't lineup construction. Batting Janish in the 2-hole. Batting Stubbs leadoff. Batting Tavaras leadoff. Corey Patterson, on and on.

[WVRedsFan]

One more thing...

Who's bright ideas was it to play two two-game series back to back (or maybe belly to belly)? Just ludicrous.

[_Sir_Charles_]

The drums, man, enough.

I'd take the howl over the drums any day. (I think the howl is awful.)

Ranks right up there with the tomahawk chop. *shivers*

[OGB]

At least Chris Welsh thinks I'm now rooting for the Indians since I live in Columbus and people here decide which MLB team they like based on the result of that day's game. What an idiotic statement. Lost all my respect for Welsh. (Not that I had much for anyone who came up with the Don-Cherryesqe idea of "Bow Tie Tuesday.")

Wow, we aren't agreeing on much tonight. I love Bow Tie Tuesday :thumbup:

I concur with the first part of the Welsh criticism, however.

[kaldaniels]

At least Chris Welsh thinks I'm now rooting for the Indians since I live in Columbus. What an idiotic statement. Lost all my respect for Welsh. (Not that I had much for anyone who came up with the Don-Cherryesqe idea of "Bow Tie Tuesday.")

What exactly was his quote that made you lose all respect for said human being?

I never did get an answer as to what the TV ratings were when it was good times for the Tribe. There are a large amount of front runners in this world, and I would speculate Columbus has its fair share given its location. Of course the "real" fans don't switch allegiances.

[Kc61]

One more thing...

Who's bright ideas was it to play two two-game series back to back (or maybe belly to belly)? Just ludicrous.

Why is it ludicrous? It's a way to have the major rivalries play four games - rather than six - and split the games between the two ball parks.

Ludicrous? Ok. Sure.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Wow. He made minced meat out of Votto there.

[_Sir_Charles_]

1 out single for Phillips.

Yes, I know....shocking, there's still a game going on. :O)

[Tadasimha]

Your passive-aggressive nonsense isn't impressive. Are you saying everyone who thinks Jack Hannahan shouldn't be a DH is a "negative nancy"? Very shallow-thinking on your part. I hope you can do better. Dusty has many positives. One of them isn't lineup construction. Batting Janish in the 2-hole. Batting Stubbs leadoff. Batting Tavaras leadoff. Corey Patterson, on and on.

:lol:

You just can't stand anyone disagreeing with you - now THAT is shallow.

Bite me.

Aggressive enough for you?

[OGB]

Does it seem like the strike zone has lowered for this submariner?

[_Sir_Charles_]

2 down as Jay flies out to deep left field. I kinda like this Joe Smith's stuff.

[WVRedsFan]

Why is it ludicrous? It's a way to have the major rivalries play four games - rather than six - and split the games between the two ball parks.

Ludicrous? Ok. Sure.

Well, I find it not cost efficient or particularly appealing. Of course, I hate inter-league play anyway, so maybe I'm prejudiced. I can see the mood of the board is pretty tense right now, so I shall move along...

[NebraskaRed]

With the Indians lineup and Arroyo pitching, and with the ...what is it? 50 game losing streak the Indians had going? I didn't expect this game to go well anyway

[_Sir_Charles_]

Hoover warming. Frazier grounds out to 2nd to end the inning.

[NebraskaRed]

Last time I checked the score on the Nationals-Orioles game, the Nats were up 6-2. Not anymore. Yikes...

[OGB]

Well, I find it not cost efficient or particularly appealing. Of course, I hate inter-league play anyway, so maybe I'm prejudiced. I can see the mood of the board is pretty tense right now, so I shall move along...

Don't leave on account of a few people.

Personally, I don't care much for the 2 game series, but particularly with the current makeup of both leagues, I would have to imagine that schedule construction is a pretty daunting task

[kaldaniels]

If the Reds won 75 percent of their games in a season, that would still allow for 40 guns-ablazin game threads over 6 months.

[Kc61]

Well, I find it not cost efficient or particularly appealing. Of course, I hate inter-league play anyway, so maybe I'm prejudiced. I can see the mood of the board is pretty tense right now, so I shall move along...

I kind of like this arrangement. Six rivalry games each year is too much IMO. Especially since some teams get to constantly play very strong or very weak rivals.

Four rivalry games seems like the right number. Back to back? Well the rivals are geographically pretty close.

Not a bad arrangement IMO.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Last time I checked the score on the Nationals-Orioles game, the Nats were up 6-2. Not anymore. Yikes...

6 spot in the 7th.

That's a fine thing to point out to the fans here btw....4 run lead is not impossible to overcome.

Cameraman in fine form right now. :O)

[kaldaniels]

Someone lip read what the FSOH girls were saying. I need entertained.

[OGB]

Was anybody else shocked that Frazier almost made a play on that, yet Paul wasn't even close?

[Blitz Dorsey]

Bite me.

Aggressive enough for you?

You couldn't think of a intellectual response and came up with this. Consider me not surprised in the least.

I present a point that Dusty's lineup construction has been poor. Cited examples of Janish batting in the two hole numerous times. Stubbs batting leadoff. Willy Taveras batting leadoff. Corey Patterson.

And this is your juvenile retort.

The defense rests, your honor. This sure was easy.

[kaldaniels]

I'm sold on going after Giambi at the deadline as my LHPH.

/half-kidding

[_Sir_Charles_]

You couldn't think of a intellectual response and came up with this. Consider me not surprised in the least.

I present a point that Dusty's lineup construction has been poor. Cited examples of Janish batting in the two hole numerous times. Stubbs batting leadoff. Willy Taveras batting leadoff. Corey Patterson.

And this is your retort.

The defense rests, your honor. This sure was easy.

Dusty's lineup construction is the weakest part of his managerial resume. Far from the most important though. VERY far.

[OGB]

I'm not a huge hockey fan, but I love the NHL playoffs and I find it pretty irritating that I can't flip over to the dramatic game 7 between Chicago and Detroit during commercials.

[Blitz Dorsey]

Dusty's lineup construction is the weakest part of his managerial resume. Far from the most important though. VERY far.

I agree that Dusty does a lot of things well. I think he manages the clubhouse well. I think he's a leader of men (which is underrated). I think he handles the media well (which is also underrated).

But no question he is a disaster at times when it comes to lineup construction. Good to see you agree here.

[Kc61]

Dusty's lineup construction is the weakest part of his managerial resume. Far from the most important though. VERY far.

I'm still not getting this. Lutz was hitting below .250 at AA and has a .600 OPS in the majors so far.

Hannahan is a .668 OPS player over 7 years.

Other than the fact that Lutz is a big fellow and probably strong, how come it's so wrong to use Hannahan over Lutz?

And if not Lutz, who else? Derrick Robinson? Fine, but is that such a big difference?

Just not getting this.

[foxfire123]

I can kind of see Welch's POV on the Tribe/Reds deal in columbus. Whenever we go home to Ohio (Zanesville area) I do my Reds shopping on the western half of the state because there is 10 times the amount of Cleveland stuff compared to Reds stuff in the Zanesville/Columbus area. As soon as we cross the Ohio border, I start looking for a Target, Meijers or a Mall just so I can replenish our Reds gear, *and* have some kind of selection...

[Tom Servo]

I'm sold on going after Giambi at the deadline as my LHPH.

/half-kidding
I definitely would, but at the moment it seems the Tribe will be in the playoff hunt.

We could definitely use a Giambi type as a pinch hitter/DH in interleague games. And Jim Thome is available.

[NebraskaRed]

I thought Hoover looked pretty good there.

And how much weight did that man put on since last season?

[dubc47834]

Vinny Pistano...mafia?

[OGB]

Now the sound guy is playing Walk by Pantera? This guy is unreal!

[_Sir_Charles_]

I agree that Dusty does a lot of things well. I think he manages the clubhouse well. I think he's a leader of men (which is underrated). I think he handles the media well (which is also underrated).

But no question he is a disaster at times when it comes to lineup construction. Good to see you agree here.

With that small part, yes I agree. But I'll be honest, there's not another manager I see that I prefer over Dusty. I know that won't be a popular opinion, but I put much more weight in the managing of PEOPLE than I do in the managing of a GAME. He manages a game "by the book" and it frustrates tons of people who think they know the game better than the old schoolers. They very well may. I won't dispute that. But, and this is a very big "but", doing things "by the book" has worked pretty darned well through the years...and no matter how much fans study the game on their computers, Dusty probably knows more about the ins and outs of the game than any of them.

He makes mistakes, he makes decisions that leave us scratching our heads...but at the same time he also has more information at his disposal that influence those decisions that we have no clue about. His teams win, his teams are competitive, his teams play HARD, and his teams play as a team. He's got my support. I LOATHE the managerial merry-go-round and I love stability in the clubhouse.

[kaldaniels]

Lets just get the tying run to the plate. Can't be too greedy here.

[_Sir_Charles_]

I'm still not getting this. Lutz was hitting below .250 at AA and has a .600 OPS in the majors so far.

Hannahan is a .668 OPS player over 7 years.

Other than the fact that Lutz is a big fellow and probably strong, how come it's so wrong to use Hannahan over Lutz?

And if not Lutz, who else? Derrick Robinson? Fine, but is that such a big difference?

Just not getting this.

I'm not complaining about TODAY'S lineup. I liked it. His history of leadoff and 2 hole hitter choices is far from optimal though...wouldn't you agree?

[_Sir_Charles_]

:jump: Paul!

[kaldaniels]

Whoa. Distance please.

[dubc47834]

Paaaaaaaaaaauuuuuuuullllllllll

[Kc61]

Pirates just won over Detroit. Cards trail Royals by two still.

[Red Raindog]

Paaaaaaaaaaauuuuuuuullllllllll

is a little late

[Tadasimha]

All right, guys, make this interesting!

[Blitz Dorsey]

With that small part, yes I agree. But I'll be honest, there's not another manager I see that I prefer over Dusty. I know that won't be a popular opinion, but I put much more weight in the managing of PEOPLE than I do in the managing of a GAME. He manages a game "by the book" and it frustrates tons of people who think they know the game better than the old schoolers. They very well may. I won't dispute that. But, and this is a very big "but", doing things "by the book" has worked pretty darned well through the years...and no matter how much fans study the game on their computers, Dusty probably knows more about the ins and outs of the game than any of them.

He makes mistakes, he makes decisions that leave us scratching our heads...but at the same time he also has more information at his disposal that influence those decisions that we have no clue about. His teams win, his teams are competitive, his teams play HARD, and his teams play as a team. He's got my support. I LOATHE the managerial merry-go-round and I love stability in the clubhouse.

It's not as small as you might think. Using guys like Taveras, Patterson, Stubbs, Janish at the top of your lineup takes a toll over the long haul. And then using Hannahan as the DH tonight? We'll never know for sure, but I bet that really hurt the Reds tonight. Hannahan is a defensive specialist. Everyone knows this. He's not a good hitter. And there is Dusty B. Baker using him as a DH. You can't make this stuff up!

Only Paul Janish is not surprised. He's the only one! (OK, Taveras and Patterson too.)

[kaldaniels]

427? I don't buy it.

[dubc47834]

is a little late

All good n da hood dawg

[OGB]

Oh the old "leadoff HR as rally killer" idiot myth getting trotted out by Welsh again.
I saw that coming a mile away.
Nothing like a play to instantly energize your team/demoralize the other team(especially the pitcher) at the start of an inning when you're down a few runs

[ProfessorTofty]

Hannahan grounds out, and now we're down to our last out.

[Blitz Dorsey]

Oh the old "leadoff HR as rally killer" idiot myth getting trotted out by Welsh again.
I saw that coming a mile away.
Nothing like a play to instantly energize your team/demoralize the other team(especially the pitcher) at the start of an inning when you're down a few runs

He's looking good right about now. You? Not so much.

[Kc61]

I'm not complaining about TODAY'S lineup. I liked it. His history of leadoff and 2 hole hitter choices is far from optimal though...wouldn't you agree?

I thought the discussion was about Hannahan.

Generally I'd agree with you. Although Dusty hasn't always had the best candidates.

I understand Cozart this year. It's a lefty/righty thing. Don't agree with it although Zack is doing ok now.

Last year Stubbs obviously was a poor leadoff choice, although there weren't great options out there.

[Kc61]

Indians and Pirates both won the World Series tonight.

[Blitz Dorsey]

I thought the discussion was about Hannahan.

Generally I'd agree with you. Although Dusty hasn't always had the best candidates.

I understand Cozart this year. It's a lefty/righty thing. Don't agree with it although Zack is doing ok now.

Last year Stubbs obviously was a poor leadoff choice, although there weren't great options out there.

Those of us questioning the Hannahan move wouldn't have a problem with it if Dusty didn't have a LONG HISTORY of horrible lineup decisions. So, it's not just about Hannahan, but that's a small part of it (and the most-recent example).

Fans should not know how to construct lineups better than the Reds' manager. Yet, we do.

[dubc47834]

Dubc out!!!

[dubc47834]

Those of us questioning the Hannahan move wouldn't have a problem with it if Dusty didn't have a LONG HISTORY of horrible lineup decisions. So, it's not just about Hannahan, but that's a small part of it (and the most-recent example).

Fans should not know how to construct lineups better than the Reds' manager. Yet, we do.

The arrogance is dripping tonite man!

[Blitz Dorsey]

The arrogance is dripping tonite man!

Stay true to your word, son. I thought you were out.

[dubc47834]

Stay true to your word, son. I thought you were out.

I'm not your son....patnah!!!!

[Kc61]

Those of us questioning the Hannahan move wouldn't have a problem with it if Dusty didn't have a LONG HISTORY of horrible lineup decisions. So, it's not just about Hannahan, but that's a small part of it (and the most-recent example).

Fans should not know how to construct lineups better than the Reds' manager. Yet, we do.

But the Hannahan decision was not a horrible lineup decision. There really was no obvious or strong lineup decision to make. The bench is pretty weak.

So I guess I don't understand what all the fuss was about.

[Blitz Dorsey]

I'm not your son....patnah!!!!

Hah, just having some fun. Saw your post -- where you referred to yourself in the third-person and said you were out. Then you posted ANOTHER POST. That doesn't sound like "out" to me, son. I mean, bud.

[OGB]

He's looking good right about now. You? Not so much.

Man, you're just full of told you sos and good cheer tonight aren't you. Tell you what, the next 50 times the Reds go into the 9th down 4, I'll take that they don't come back and win/tie 100% of the time. I'll end up being right an awful lot. There isn't much too brag about in that regard.
That doesn't mean there is any truth to the moronic remark that scoring a run to begin an inning when you are down 4 is a great way to deflate your team and ensure you don't score any more.

[_Sir_Charles_]

It's not as small as you might think. Using guys like Taveras, Patterson, Stubbs, Janish at the top of your lineup takes a toll over the long haul. And then using Hannahan as the DH tonight? We'll never know for sure, but I bet that really hurt the Reds tonight. Hannahan is a defensive specialist. Everyone knows this. He's not a good hitter. And there is Dusty B. Baker using him as a DH. You can't make this stuff up!

Only Paul Janish is not surprised. He's the only one! (OK, Taveras and Patterson too.)

Yes it does take it's toll. And the fact that he hasn't had very good options during those years for those roles still gets thrown at his feet. It's all his fault.

As for Hannahan, so I take it you think he should rot away on the bench and only be used as a late inning defensive replacement? There are a limited number of players on a club during this long season. Every one of them is going to be needed at some time or another, don't you agree? If those guys are going to be expected to contribute, they've got to get some playing time in order to maintain some semblance of readiness. Is he a great option for a DH? Of course not. But guess what, we don't HAVE an great option for DH because our roster isn't designed for a DH. The other options, while maybe better, are only slightly better. Lutz and Mesoraco are both getting plenty of playing time due to the positions they play. Same for Robinson. But Hannahan's opportunities have been very limited. If he's not going to play, he might as well be replaced on the roster. But he does serve a purpose on the roster (as a defensive replacement as you pointed out) but he's got to stay sharp in his other aspects as well or he's a detriment to the club. One DH start is not the reason we just lost that game. A poor start by Bronson coupled with some poor ab's at critical times are why we lost that game.

Just one man's open-minded opinion. Feel free to disagree.

[Blitz Dorsey]

But the Hannahan decision was not a horrible lineup decision. There really was no obvious or strong lineup decision to make. The bench is pretty weak.

So I guess I don't understand what all the fuss was about.

I agree the bench is weak.

I DISAGREE that there was no better option than Hannahan. Leake is a better hitter than Hannahan. Robinson is a better hitter than Hannahan. Mesoraco is definitely a better hitter (although I do "kind of" understand the backup catcher thing), Lutz is a better hitter than Hannahan IMO (although I can see how some would disagree).

Looking at ALL the options, do you think Jack Hannahan was the best option to DH tonight? If not, Dusty made a mistake. Plain and simple.

[Kc61]

BTW, didn't Hannahan get two hits last night in the Reds' victory?

Not that it matters, Reds would have lost tonight anyway, but I just don't see the big issue here.

[_Sir_Charles_]

I thought the discussion was about Hannahan.

Generally I'd agree with you. Although Dusty hasn't always had the best candidates.

I understand Cozart this year. It's a lefty/righty thing. Don't agree with it although Zack is doing ok now.

Last year Stubbs obviously was a poor leadoff choice, although there weren't great options out there.

KC...we agree 100%. I think it's just a bit of miscommunication is all regarding what Blitz and I were talking about.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Fans should not know how to construct lineups better than the Reds' manager. Yet, we do.

We THINK we do. Until we're put in there to do it...we'll never know. As I said before, I think lineup construction is one of his worst skills (maybe THE worst skill), but he rarely has the right parts to fill those slots. I just think it's not as cut and dry as some make it out to be is all.

[Blitz Dorsey]

Man, you're just full of told you sos and good cheer tonight aren't you. Tell you what, the next 50 times the Reds go into the 9th down 4, I'll take that they don't come back and win/tie 100% of the time. I'll end up being right an awful lot. There isn't much too brag about in that regard.
That doesn't mean there is any truth to the moronic remark that scoring a run to begin an inning when you are down 4 is a great way to deflate your team and ensure you don't score any more.

I know man. All good. Was seriously just bustin' nuts there. If you read back through my posts, I'm not exactly a big Chris Welsh fan tonight. You are right that his "leadoff HR is a rally killer" thing is bunk.

[WVRedsFan]

The pace that both the Cardinals and Pirates are setting is impossible to gain or put distance between them (in the case of the Pirates). Someone has to cool off, but it's tough when they both keep winning. I still say this a a three team race and unless we have a good series this weekend, we could briefly be in third place. How sobering is that? Plenty for me. Guys better go their business against those gold and black over achievers or else.

Bad game tonight, but hopefully one of few going forward.

[Kc61]

I agree the bench is weak.

I DISAGREE that there was no better option than Hannahan. Leake is a better hitter than Hannahan. Robinson is a better hitter than Hannahan. Mesoraco is definitely a better hitter (although I do "kind of" understand the backup catcher thing), Lutz is a better hitter than Hannahan IMO (although I can see how some would disagree).

Looking at ALL the options, do you think Jack Hannahan was the best option to DH tonight? If not, Dusty made a mistake. Plain and simple.

Well, I think in this case a look at some stats might help, Blitz. Leake's lifetime OPS is 50 points lower than Hannahan's. AND Leake would be hitting righty/righty instead of lefty/righty.

Derrick Robinson has been used largely against lefties this year. Against righties, he's .551 OPS in a very few at bats.

I mean, I don't think the stats bear you out on this one.

[OGB]

I agree the bench is weak.

I DISAGREE that there was no better option than Hannahan. Leake is a better hitter than Hannahan. Robinson is a better hitter than Hannahan. Mesoraco is definitely a better hitter (although I do "kind of" understand the backup catcher thing), Lutz is a better hitter than Hannahan IMO (although I can see how some would disagree).

Looking at ALL the options, do you think Jack Hannahan was the best option to DH tonight? If not, Dusty made a mistake. Plain and simple.

No manager in baseball would pass up a single player on his bench, let alone his entire bench to DH a pitcher.
There was every reason to assume that Hannahan might have success playing in the park he spent the last two seasons in.

[Blitz Dorsey]

Well, I think in this case a look at some stats might help, Blitz. Leake's lifetime OPS is 50 points lower than Hannahan's. AND Leake would be hitting righty/righty instead of lefty/righty.

Derrick Robinson has been used largely against lefties this year. Against righties, he's .551 OPS in a very few at bats.

I mean, I don't think the stats bear you out on this one.

Well, if you just want to play the "stats" card ... I'll play Mesoraco and win this debate all day. Catchers just don't get hurt that often; yet managers behave as if they get hurt every other game by the way they refuse to use them as DH's or PH's.

[_Sir_Charles_]

I agree the bench is weak.

I DISAGREE that there was no better option than Hannahan. Leake is a better hitter than Hannahan. Robinson is a better hitter than Hannahan. Mesoraco is definitely a better hitter (although I do "kind of" understand the backup catcher thing), Lutz is a better hitter than Hannahan IMO (although I can see how some would disagree).

Looking at ALL the options, do you think Jack Hannahan was the best option to DH tonight? If not, Dusty made a mistake. Plain and simple.

Read my post before this one you made. Think BIG PICTURE. Robinson & Lutz are splitting time with Paul in LF. All three are getting pretty regular opportunities. Mesoraco is splitting time with Hanny and is also getting plenty of reps. Jack....not so much. He needs reps too. Seemed like a prime opportunity to do so tonight. Not a mistake, a planned decision with reasoning behind it that looks globally and not at ONE GAME. Not as plain and simple as you might think.

[Kc61]

Well, if you just want to play the "stats" card ... I'll play Mesoraco and win this debate all day. Catchers just don't get hurt that often; yet managers behave as if they get hurt every other game by the way they refuse to use them as DH's or PH's.

Tomorrow the Reds face a lefty. Mesoraco is virtually the only RHH available to DH, except for Izturis who switches but doesn't hit much.

Let's see if Dusty goes with Mes tomorrow.

it should be interesting.

Again, I don't see the Hannahan thing as a big deal. Jack's lifetime numbers aren't that terrible.

The DH thing will be a problem since the Reds haven't made any player moves to replace injured players. Ludwick is a big loss. Heisey not as much, but still hasn't been replaced. The remaining bench players don't provide much offense.

[Blitz Dorsey]

Read my post before this one you made. Think BIG PICTURE. Robinson & Lutz are splitting time with Paul in LF. All three are getting pretty regular opportunities. Mesoraco is splitting time with Hanny and is also getting plenty of reps. Jack....not so much. He needs reps too. Seemed like a prime opportunity to do so tonight. Not a mistake, a planned decision with reasoning behind it that looks globally and not at ONE GAME. Not as plain and simple as you might think.

I can dig it. This is the first reasonable explanation I've heard.

:beerme:

[Tony Cloninger]

Don't trust KC to hold a 2-1 lead against the Cardinals. Even when they lose...they barely lose games at all. It's mind boggling.

[Kc61]

Don't trust KC to hold a 2-1 lead against the Cardinals. Even when they lose...they barely lose games at all. It's mind boggling.

Beltran with nice sliding catch to keep the KC lead one run. Royals had two men on.

I agree with you, Tony, Cards are at home and it's hard to see this one run holding up. But we can hope.

[Tony Cloninger]

Beltran with nice sliding catch to keep the KC lead one run. Royals had two men on.

I agree with you, Tony, Cards are at home and it's hard to see this one run holding up. But we can hope.

Wait a minute? Is he not a statue in RF?? Every time someone points out "regressions" and "bad defense"....the Cardinals do things to say BS to the argument. What regression can there be when you have a bunch of rookies and 2nd year players...who you do not know how good they actually are?

Having said that... The Reds are not exactly getting blown out of their losses. 2 of them should have never happened and the first one in Philly was just some bad luck bounces in the 8th.

[Blitz Dorsey]

No manager in baseball would pass up a single player on his bench, let alone his entire bench to DH a pitcher.
There was every reason to assume that Hannahan might have success playing in the park he spent the last two seasons in.

"Every reason." Except his OPS, things of that nature.

[Kingspoint]

Arroyo has five losses.

Cueto, Cingrani, Leake, Latos, and Bailey have five losses total between them.

[Blitz Dorsey]

Arroyo has five losses.

Cueto, Cingrani, Leake, Latos, and Bailey have five losses total between them.

Yep, wins and losses are a great way of measuring pitchers.

(Nope.)

[kaldaniels]

Arroyo has five losses.

Cueto, Cingrani, Leake, Latos, and Bailey have five losses total between them.

Terrible, agenda driven use of stats (and a disputed stat at that). If you don't want to re-sign BA, that is fine (he will be pricey), but you don't have to drag him over the coals to prove your point.

Players who have the same (or more losses) as Arroyo.

Hamels
Shields
Strasburg
Burnett
Dickey
Samarjizja
Loshe
Gallardo
Cahill

[BluegrassRedleg]

Seems like we can never get away from the W/L thing with pitchers. :confused:

[Kingspoint]

Terrible, agenda driven use of stats (and a disputed stat at that). If you don't want to re-sign BA, that is fine (he will be pricey), but you don't have to drag him over the coals to prove your point.

Players who have the same (or more losses) as Arroyo.

Hamels
Shields
Strasburg
Burnett
Dickey
Samarjizja
Loshe
Gallardo
Cahill
You missed my point.

Name another team where one Starter has as many losses as all the other Starters combined. This late into the season, it's a rare thing to see. Not advocating wins/losses as a way of measuring a pitchers effectiveness here. Just pointing out an extremely rare stat showing itself this late in the season.