the Difference between Reds and Cardinals

[DWS1125]

The thing I noticed about the Reds and Cardinals hitters..The Cardinals batters don't take at bats off..no matter what the score of the game is. This game and the Chicago cubs game recently is example of the Reds players packing it in after the First inning..I smelled this coming very early

[DWS1125]

I think mentally the Reds checked out its obvious to me. With the boneheaded miscues...If this team would ever need a close door meeting Today is an example of it. Other than that this team will win majority of their games.

[RedsfaninMO]

The difference is the Cards continue to cry about things, the Reds don't.

[CARDINALred]

I don't think there are any substantial differences between the two teams. Both have great hitting and great pitching and will probably be in a dogfight for supremacy in the NL Central for the next few years. I'm sure the Reds have had a couple days where they seem like they just didn't show up; the Cardinals have days just like that, too. Over the course of a 162-game season, every team does.

[krm1580]

There are two differences between the Cardinals and the Reds.

1.) The Cardinal staff does a much better job of keeping the baseball in the park. If you look at the pitching staff numbers they are almost identical across the board except HRs allowed and not so surprisingly ERA. Part of the difference is the ballpark, but it is a very small allowance because if you look at the road stats the ratio is about the same. If you don't give up home runs a team needs to string together 2 or 3 hits to score a run.

2.) The Cardinals are hitting at an absolutely ridiculous clip with runners in scoring position. The Cardinals are at .341, the next highest in the league is Colorado at .285. The NL league average over the past 10 years is .258.
To put it in better pespective how far out in front of the rest of the league the Cardinals are right now

Gap between #1 Cardinals and #2 Rockies +56
Gap between #2 Rockies and #14 Phillies +55

[Beltway]

The biggest difference between the Reds and Cardinals is that the Reds play in Cincinnati and the Cardinals play in St. Louis.

[SporkLover]

While its great that the competition in the NL Central, don't forget that this 2013 is just few batters different than the 2012 team. They were awful streaky last year.

Don't get a complex over the Cards or the Bucs... If the Reds play the way they were last year and stay healthy.... October baseball will include them.

[AnonymousPoster]

While its great that the competition in the NL Central, don't forget that this 2013 is just few batters different than the 2012 team. They were awful streaky last year.

Don't get a complex over the Cards or the Bucs... If the Reds play the way they were last year and stay healthy.... October baseball will include them.


But they won't get out of the first round, so who cares? The Cardinals, on the other hand, will once again go deep into the playoffs. And more than likely win their 12th Title.

[westofyou]

The main difference is Reds fans chat about the Reds on a Reds chat board and Cardinals fans chat about the Cardinals on a Reds chat board

[Magdal]

A quick comparison of the two teams stats reveal that they are statistically the closest two teams in the MLB. That's correct, they mirror each other in almost every category. Pitching, offence AND defense.

It's really quite startling.

[SporkLover]

A quick comparison of the two teams stats reveal that they are statistically the closest two teams in the MLB. That's correct, they mirror each other in almost every category. Pitching, offence AND defense.

It's really quite startling.

I think we'll get a good preview of the summer Cardinals this weekend. Playing a 4 game home stand, with one marathon game, then going to the Reds...... Give us a good idea how well they are built for the grind.

[Sonned]

People go to Cardinal games?

[SporkLover]

The main difference is Reds fans chat about the Reds on a Reds chat board and Cardinals fans chat about the Cardinals on a Reds chat board

I bounce around a few different team boards...... Theirs are quite atrocious. Want to see some of. The best fans in baseball in action? Go to the post dispatch Cards Talk.... Awful there. some guys have a high baseball IQ.... But morons ruin most threads by trolling their own fan base.

At least those few Cards fans here keep it civil and can have baseball discussions..... Even though sometimes it seems they fancy themselves as 16th century Christian missionaries visiting Central America for the first time.

[dougdirt]

There are two differences between the Cardinals and the Reds.

1.) The Cardinal staff does a much better job of keeping the baseball in the park. If you look at the pitching staff numbers they are almost identical across the board except HRs allowed and not so surprisingly ERA. Part of the difference is the ballpark, but it is a very small allowance because if you look at the road stats the ratio is about the same. If you don't give up home runs a team needs to string together 2 or 3 hits to score a run.


The Cardinals play in one of the least HR friendly stadiums in baseball. The Reds play in one of the most HR friendly stadiums in baseball. The Reds are much better on the road at keeping the ball in the ballpark.

[The Operator]

Alright, let me just step in and put out the word:

If you are a Cardinals fan and you're coming here for no other reason than to start crap, I'd like to invite you to get a life and take your act elsewhere. For a fan base with 11 titles you sure are an insecure bunch.

If you're coming to actually discuss baseball like adults, you're more than welcome. But if you make it clear you're just here to be annoying and childish, I'll bounce you right back out of here faster than you came. Seriously - enough is enough.

[CardsFanBob]

Alright, let me just step in and put out the word:

If you are a Cardinals fan and you're coming here for no other reason than to start crap, I'd like to invite you to get a life and take your act elsewhere. For a fan base with 11 titles you sure are an insecure bunch.

If you're coming to actually discuss baseball like adults, you're more than welcome. But if you make it clear you're just here to be annoying and childish, I'll bounce you right back out of here faster than you came. Seriously - enough is enough.


Wow. That came out of nowhere. I don't think any Cardinals fans have started any trouble that I've seen... not that I'm here all the time.

I would argue the reason many of us end up posting is we came to lurk and found so many threads about our team.

[Vottomatic]

I've never been to another MLB team's message board. I don't get why fans of other teams come here.

[Plus Plus]

The reason that you don't see many Cardinals fans who have started trouble is because they are often quickly banned because they abrasively troll and bother posters. This has been a problem for about 2.5 seasons now.

We have some very productive members of this site who are Cardinals fans. They find a way to discuss their team like adults. I recommend all Cardinals fans who join the site to do the same, because trolling and baiting isn't going to be tolerated.

[CardsFanBob]

Interesting. I suppose I've missed any of the issues, then. I haven't seen any trolling.

[westofyou]

Interesting. I suppose I've missed any of the issues, then. I haven't seen any trolling.

Enjoy...

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101491

[CardsFanBob]

Enjoy...

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101491

1. I personally wouldn't start a thread here, as I realize this is your forum. That said, it is an open forum on the free world wide web.

2. The only trolling post was the one with teh Ed McMahon picture. And honestly, it really wasn't all that bad.

3. If you think that's serious trolling, you all have way too thin of skin.

I've stayed at this site because I find the conversation interesting; I like seeing what "the competition" has to say. Though, I would like to reiterate how I came here: One of your own decide to seriously troll a St. Louis-based site. I forget what his handle is here, but he spent a month starting threads about how the Cardinals suck, the Reds were awesome, blah, blah, blah. So, no one is innocent of boorish behavior -- to those who question why we're here (St. Louis fans). You have fans that do it as well.

[westofyou]

1. I personally wouldn't start a thread here, as I realize this is your forum. That said, it is an open forum on the free world wide web.

2. The only trolling post was the one with teh Ed McMahon picture. And honestly, it really wasn't all that bad.

3. If you think that's serious trolling, you all have way too thin of skin.

I've stayed at this site because I find the conversation interesting; I like seeing what "the competition" has to say. Though, I would like to reiterate how I came here: One of your own decide to seriously troll a St. Louis-based site. I forget what his handle is here, but he spent a month starting threads about how the Cardinals suck, the Reds were awesome, blah, blah, blah. So, no one is innocent of boorish behavior -- to those who question why we're here (St. Louis fans). You have fans that do it as well.

Don't know if it's really trolling, but I do know it's arrogant nonsense, which I don't think was a good way to pretend to create discourse of any type that doesn't lean towards sports guy machismo, which is weak and childish at best

[CardsFanBob]

Fair enough, but there's more than enough that comes from Reds fans, which is directed towards the Cardinals and/or our fans. Need proof? Read the rest of that thread.

But like I said in the "Yadi is a baby" thread, it's your site. Your fans maintain it. You get special treatment. It's understandable.

[westofyou]

Fair enough, but there's more than enough that comes from Reds fans, which is directed towards the Cardinals and/or our fans. Need proof? Read the rest of that thread.

But like I said in the "Yadi is a baby" thread, it's your site. Your fans maintain it. You get special treatment. It's understandable.

Oh, no saints here either I know that.

I'm a baseball fan, I respect the game and the players over provincial rivalries, most baseball fans act like football fans when they type on a chat board.

I loath football fans

[Don Cameron]

Essentially what it comes down is that this forum finds any opinion that does not mimic the leaders of this site as a type of trolling. There is little appreciation for thoughtful or candid opinion that does not replicate local sports talk. Furthermore, Cincinnati fans have been stuck in 1976 for 37 years now, and have regressed as a sports town... most here do not embrace winning and champions, but loathe them and find faults in the best players or teams. Even their own teams, Cincinnatians do not know how to truly appreciate them, especially their star players. Cincinnati fans expect above hall of fame standards for their players, and expect that player to perform that way for entire seasons and careers, and if they do not, or if they slump, then they are bums. It really is depressing.

Don Cameron
Cincinnati fan since 1971

[westofyou]

Essentially what it comes down is that this forum finds any opinion that does not mimic the leaders of this site as a type of trolling. There is little appreciation for thoughtful or candid opinion that does not replicate local sports talk. Furthermore, Cincinnati fans have been stuck in 1976 for 37 years now, and have regressed as a sports town... most here do not embrace winning and champions, but loathe them and find faults in the best players or teams. Even their own teams, Cincinnatians do not know how to truly appreciate them, especially their star players. Cincinnati fans expect above hall of fame standards for their players, and expect that player to perform that way for entire seasons and careers, and if they do not, or if they slump, then they are bums. It really is depressing.

Don Cameron
Cincinnati fan since 1971
1976 the Reds best year in attendance... I believe some Reds fans haven't been downtown since then.

[CardsFanBob]

Oh, no saints here either I know that.

I'm a baseball fan, I respect the game and the players over provincial rivalries, most baseball fans act like football fans when they type on a chat board.

I loath football fans

Very true. Some people get my blood pressure up over here, but I choose to hold my tongue, as I'm a visitor.

Definitely looking forward to this weekend's series. I feel like the Reds have a distinct advantage in that the Cardinals look a bit flat. They had a long west coast swing followed up by some home games with long, long weather delays. The boys look like they need an off day with one not coming until after our weekend set.

[CardsFanBob]

Essentially what it comes down is that this forum finds any opinion that does not mimic the leaders of this site as a type of trolling. There is little appreciation for thoughtful or candid opinion that does not replicate local sports talk. Furthermore, Cincinnati fans have been stuck in 1976 for 37 years now, and have regressed as a sports town... most here do not embrace winning and champions, but loathe them and find faults in the best players or teams. Even their own teams, Cincinnatians do not know how to truly appreciate them, especially their star players. Cincinnati fans expect above hall of fame standards for their players, and expect that player to perform that way for entire seasons and careers, and if they do not, or if they slump, then they are bums. It really is depressing.

Don Cameron
Cincinnati fan since 1971


That's some biting commentary.

I will say this: I understand the dislike and downright hatred by some Reds fans towards Cards fans... or even their own team. You guys have been a repressed bunch for far too many years, given you're a historic baseball town. Unless you're an tOSU fan, you haven't had much to get excited about.

[Don Cameron]

As far as tOSU, many Cincinnatians dislike OSU. You cannot even get a clear radio feed for OSU games on the radio here... we get to listen to UK football... UofL football...Nowhere elsr on the state of Ohio is OSU shunned than Cincinnati... and when OSU is brought up, everyone points to the UC team that beat them in the 1960's. I joke with some of my friends that OSU is too good for Cincinnati sports fans, they don't lose nearly enough so there is nothing to complain about. Most Cincinnati fans claim the Reds as the team of the1970's, though they played in four world series, The A's won three, and the Yankees and Pirates, like the Reds won two series as well.

Cincinnati fans are a strange cynical creature. Baker has won over 1600 games but Cincinnati faithful would take Pinella over him. The Reds are on pace to win over 90 games this year, have their best overall team since the 1970's... and that is not enough for this town to appreciate them.

Don Cameron
A man who likes cheese.

[4thand1]

Alright, let me just step in and put out the word:

If you are a Cardinals fan and you're coming here for no other reason than to start crap, I'd like to invite you to get a life and take your act elsewhere. For a fan base with 11 titles you sure are an insecure bunch.

If you're coming to actually discuss baseball like adults, you're more than welcome. But if you make it clear you're just here to be annoying and childish, I'll bounce you right back out of here faster than you came. Seriously - enough is enough.

One of them is trying to cause trouble: http://www.tippingpitchers.com

[4thand1]

Wow. That came out of nowhere. I don't think any Cardinals fans have started any trouble that I've seen... not that I'm here all the time.

I would argue the reason many of us end up posting is we came to lurk and found so many threads about our team.

Again, check this site: http://www.tippingpitchers.com

[foxfire123]

Again, check this site: http://www.tippingpitchers.com

As it's been said before, RedsZone mods cannot control what members post on other boards. They can, and do pretty well, control what happens here. If the fans of ANY other team want to come here and cause trouble, then they'll be dealt with. If they want to come over here, behave like adults, and have legitimate *baseball* conversations, then that's fine. If they want to gloat, snark and goad, then they can just. GO. AWAY.

I don't go to other team's boards since frankly, I don't want to. I have no interest in seeing what the Cardinals fans are saying about the Reds. I don't care what the Cubs fans are saying. Etc. I come here for the camaraderie of fans of MY team.

[westofyou]

Again, check this site: http://www.tippingpitchers.com

If someone does something on another site it has nothing to do with this site

Pretty easy summation to come to eh?

[Falcon7]

Face it, all of us Reds fan's, they are stiil not ready for, "Prime Time".

[westofyou]

Face it, all of us Reds fan's, they are stiil not ready for, "Prime Time".

That's your option to call it that way, this is a marathon and the season is roughly 37% over. I'll wait and see if someone turns into a pumpkin or not

[KC2135]

I know there has always been Cardinal fans on here, but I believe it's getting worse.

[RedlegJake]

Not the Cards fans on here that bug me but the "give up" Reds "fans"...

[Hey Meat]

Another which I know someone else has probably said on this thread already is; the Cardinals get all of the calls. The inconsistency of the strike zone in that first game on Friday night was horrendous. I can't bear to watch the Cardinals and their whiny, temper tantrum throwing childish behavior. It is no surprise that they get all the breaks.
Do not fear or fret Reds fans they will not play above their heads all year, eventually reality will set in. If we can stay within a few games we will be in position to move ahead of them.

[jlcomo]

Another which I know someone else has probably said on this thread already is; the Cardinals get all of the calls. The inconsistency of the strike zone in that first game on Friday night was horrendous. I can't bear to watch the Cardinals and their whiny, temper tantrum throwing childish behavior. It is no surprise that they get all the breaks.
Do not fear or fret Reds fans they will not play above their heads all year, eventually reality will set in. If we can stay within a few games we will be in position to move ahead of them.

Lol.

[Hey Meat]

Lol.
Only a cards fan would say lol with 9 posts. Hadn't been on this board in a while, but I thought trolling was frowned upon on here.

[RedlegJake]

Only a cards fan would say lol with 9 posts. Hadn't been on this board in a while, but I thought trolling was frowned upon on here.

Lol is not trolling. Frankly I did laugh when I read the Cards "get all the calls" and they get "all the breaks"....that's laughable even to this old lifetime Reds fan. When you say things like that who is doing the whining?

[jlcomo]

Lol is not trolling. Frankly I did laugh when I read the Cards "get all the calls" and they get "all the breaks"....that's laughable even to this old lifetime Reds fan. When you say things like that who is doing the whining?

Good post. Both teams get their fair share of blown calls. It just always seems like your team is always getting the shaft. People tend to remember the times they were screwed rather than the times they got a gift. It's human nature.

[SporkLover]

Another which I know someone else has probably said on this thread already is; the Cardinals get all of the calls. The inconsistency of the strike zone in that first game on Friday night was horrendous. I can't bear to watch the Cardinals and their whiny, temper tantrum throwing childish behavior. It is no surprise that they get all the breaks.
Do not fear or fret Reds fans they will not play above their heads all year, eventually reality will set in. If we can stay within a few games we will be in position to move ahead of them.

I'm curious about the whiny Cards. A few years ago, TLR complained about everything, so it's obvious how they earned that. Now.... There doesn't seem to be any personalities on the team to really draw any ire. Matheny, as far as I've seen, hasn't been in post game interviews making excuses or deflecting. He seems to stick to a predictable script of praising pitching and hitting for wins, and expressing disappointment for tough losses. Only time I've seen him dispute calls were close ones....... Do they still deserve it?

I wonder if STL still looks at BP as a loudmouth crap stirrer.

[MikeThierry]

Another which I know someone else has probably said on this thread already is; the Cardinals get all of the calls. The inconsistency of the strike zone in that first game on Friday night was horrendous. I can't bear to watch the Cardinals and their whiny, temper tantrum throwing childish behavior. It is no surprise that they get all the breaks.
Do not fear or fret Reds fans they will not play above their heads all year, eventually reality will set in. If we can stay within a few games we will be in position to move ahead of them.


I think I'm going to make my new signature "ALL THE CALLS!!!"

You seriously wrote that and posted on here....

[MikeThierry]

I'm curious about the whiny Cards. A few years ago, TLR complained about everything, so it's obvious how they earned that. Now.... There doesn't seem to be any personalities on the team to really draw any ire. Matheny, as far as I've seen, hasn't been in post game interviews making excuses or deflecting. He seems to stick to a predictable script of praising pitching and hitting for wins, and expressing disappointment for tough losses. Only time I've seen him dispute calls were close ones....... Do they still deserve it?

I wonder if STL still looks at BP as a loudmouth crap stirrer.

That's an interesting question. He will still get some boo's but on a whole I think Cardinals fans have gotten over it. Most would probably want him on our team if we had the chance to get him.

[mikdavrut]

That's an interesting question. He will still get some boo's but on a whole I think Cardinals fans have gotten over it. Most would probably want him on our team if we had the chance to get him.
I would almost guarantee that even those Cards fans that still boo him every chance they get would LOVE to be able to call him "one of theirs". Not only that, but were he to ever end up a Card (heaven forbid), he would probably become a fairly instant "fan favorite".

[757690]

4 games. With 99 to go.

[CARDINALred]

I would almost guarantee that even those Cards fans that still boo him every chance they get would LOVE to be able to call him "one of theirs". Not only that, but were he to ever end up a Card (heaven forbid), he would probably become a fairly instant "fan favorite".

This is absolutely true. And I haven't boo'd Phillips since 2011, but now having been to Cards/Reds games at both ballparks, I'd have to say the booing is more or less the same for Phillips and Yadi.

Honestly I always liked Cueto less than Phillips, anyway. But again, wouldn't mind having him pitch for the Cards.

[TDogg]

I'm going way back (to show y'all how old I am). As a Sixers fan in basketball, I lived and died when Dr J's teams played the Celtics. Larry Bird was El Diablo himself as far as I was concerned...but if he was ever in a Sixers uniform, I would have welcomed him with open arms!

I feel the same way about DatDude.

[CARDINALred]

Just curious, but when the Reds aren't playing the Cardinals, do they play any other teams besides the Cubs and the Marlins?

[RedlegJake]

Just curious, but when the Reds aren't playing the Cardinals, do they play any other teams besides the Cubs and the Marlins?

Funny. With the Cards schedule over the next ten days you ask that? With the Cards playing the Royals while Reds get Indians you ask that? LOL...it does show team bias in fans of all teans just like the ridiculous "Cards are lucky" posts from Reds fans. The other team always gets the breaks has a softer schedule etc. Ii know you were joking...here's to an exciting race

[CardsFanBob]

Royals are pretty solid this year.

[Strike3Called]

The Royals are not 'pretty solid' this year. They haven't been a 500 team since may 11th. A week ago they were 9 games under 500. Its taken 6 games vs the Twins and Astros to get to being 'only' 3 games under 500. That is not being 'pretty solid."

As far as the Reds playing bad teams, a Reds fan has already posted (in this thread I believe) that the reds are something like 7 games below 500 against above 500 teams so they know they haven't played to well vs the better teams but when its all said and done the cards will play the Marlins and Cubs just as often as they will. So there should be no strength of schedule bias. It will all even out because Cleveland and KC have the same record.

[CARDINALred]

Funny. With the Cards schedule over the next ten days you ask that? With the Cards playing the Royals while Reds get Indians you ask that? LOL...it does show team bias in fans of all teans just like the ridiculous "Cards are lucky" posts from Reds fans. The other team always gets the breaks has a softer schedule etc. Ii know you were joking...here's to an exciting race

Overall it mostly evens out over the course of a 162-game season, it just seemed to me so far the Reds have played easier teams more often than the Cardinals had.

[CardsFanBob]

The Royals are not 'pretty solid' this year. They haven't been a 500 team since may 11th. A week ago they were 9 games under 500. Its taken 6 games vs the Twins and Astros to get to being 'only' 3 games under 500. That is not being 'pretty solid."

As far as the Reds playing bad teams, a Reds fan has already posted (in this thread I believe) that the reds are something like 7 games below 500 against above 500 teams so they know they haven't played to well vs the better teams but when its all said and done the cards will play the Marlins and Cubs just as often as they will. So there should be no strength of schedule bias. It will all even out because Cleveland and KC have the same record.

Personally, I don't think they're all that much worse than the Indians... my only point.

[CARDINALred]

Personally, I don't think they're all that much worse than the Indians... my only point.

According to the standings, only .001 separates the two teams in winning percentage, and apparently the Indians are on an 8-game losing streak while the Royals are currently on a 6-game winning streak, for whatever that's worth.

[Strike3Called]

If that's your point then I agree. KC = Cleveland. Both teams are bad.

[757690]

This whole discussion proves my point about strength of schedule. At the time the Reds and Cards played the Indians and Royals, the Indians were 27-23 and the Royals were 21-27. Now both are a few games below .500. I imagine their records will change a few more times over the course of the season.

[Strike3Called]

I agree with you. SoS is a very meaningless over the course of 162 games. Some Reds here have said the Cards have the easier sked year in and year out because of KC. Some Cards fans here seem to say the Reds have 'so far' played an easier sked. But it all evens out in the end and I don't see how anyone could deny that.

[CARDINALred]

We all ought to agree that over the course of 162 games these things tend to even out, and that the Indians and Royals are both below-average baseball teams.

Right?

[757690]

We all ought to agree that over the course of 162 games these things tend to even out, and that the Indians and Royals are both below-average baseball teams.

Right?

Right now, we really have no idea. One team could easily end up 10-15 ahead of the other. Both have strengths, both have flaws. The Tribe has fewer black holes, but the Royals have better pitching. I could see either team contend or flop at season's end.

[CARDINALred]

Right now, we really have no idea. One team could easily end up 10-15 ahead of the other. Both have strengths, both have flaws. The Tribe has fewer black holes, but the Royals have better pitching. I could see either team contend or flop at season's end.

"No idea"??

We have some idea.

[SporkLover]

SOS and evaluating a team by the W/L ratio is interesting, but has difficulty translating W/L probability, as that is a much more complicated metric that either of those stats could ever dream of providing.

Pitching vs Batter matchups, overall health of team, are they in a slump or on a winning streak, are they well rested or tired, are they playing at home or away, etc etc etc. Too many times throughout many seasons in baseball, the statistically inferior teams get upsets against statistically superior teams (2011 NLDS series, 2012 NLDS series, 2013 Subway Series, etc etc etc).

So bottom line... while looking at the stats is interesting, the only reliable way to evaluate a team win probability IMHO, is to look at how each is performing at THAT particular instance in the season and stack them up.

For instance, in 2012 I would have looked at the End of May/Early June Dodgers (Leading MLB by 4 games) very differently than the End of June Dodgers (8 game losing streak)

[Strike3Called]

SOS and evaluating a team by the W/L ratio is interesting, but has difficulty translating W/L probability, as that is a much more complicated metric that either of those stats could ever dream of providing.

Pitching vs Batter matchups, overall health of team, are they in a slump or on a winning streak, are they well rested or tired, are they playing at home or away, etc etc etc. Too many times throughout many seasons in baseball, the statistically inferior teams get upsets against statistically superior teams (2011 NLDS series, 2012 NLDS series, 2013 Subway Series, etc etc etc).

So bottom line... while looking at the stats is interesting, the only reliable way to evaluate a team win probability IMHO, is to look at how each is performing at THAT particular instance in the season and stack them up.

For instance, in 2012 I would have looked at the End of May/Early June Dodgers (Leading MLB by 4 games) very differently than the End of June Dodgers (8 game losing streak)


But that's just the point. Whos the say that those early June Dodgers were the 'true' dodgers? Maybe they were just being lucky at that time...playing over their heads. Why did the go on an eight game losing streak? Did they lose their best 3 players to injury or did they simply come down to earth? And teams very often go through whats called a "west coast" or Cetral swing, meaning if the dodgers play the Reds this week, they are likely gonna play the Cards and another Central team in the same road trip or home stand so both teams will get the getting either the 'hot' or 'cold' dodgers at around the same times. SoS evens out, its simple as that.

[SporkLover]

But that's just the point. Whos the say that those early June Dodgers were the 'true' dodgers? Maybe they were just being lucky at that time...playing over their heads. Why did the go on an eight game losing streak? Did they lose their best 3 players to injury or did they simply come down to earth? And teams very often go through whats called a "west coast" or Cetral swing, meaning if the dodgers play the Reds this week, they are likely gonna play the Cards and another Central team in the same road trip or home stand so both teams will get the getting either the 'hot' or 'cold' dodgers at around the same times. SoS evens out, its simple as that.

What's the point?

My point is that I don't care if SoS evens out in the end. Using SoS now to try and determine who has an easier playing schedule provides and incomplete picture for determining W/L probability...... for all of the reasons you've said.

So looking at SoS and saying the Reds have the easier schedule doesn't carry so much water in my book. There are more situational factors to take into consideration. Yeah sure the Marlins suck most of the year... but even they can carry a winning streak and represent a formidable foe in August, when in June they were knocked around by everyone (sounds like the 2011 Cards).

[SpiritofStLouis]

SOS and evaluating a team by the W/L ratio is interesting, but has difficulty translating W/L probability, as that is a much more complicated metric that either of those stats could ever dream of providing.

Pitching vs Batter matchups, overall health of team, are they in a slump or on a winning streak, are they well rested or tired, are they playing at home or away, etc etc etc. Too many times throughout many seasons in baseball, the statistically inferior teams get upsets against statistically superior teams (2011 NLDS series, 2012 NLDS series, 2013 Subway Series, etc etc etc).

So bottom line... while looking at the stats is interesting, the only reliable way to evaluate a team win probability IMHO, is to look at how each is performing at THAT particular instance in the season and stack them up.

For instance, in 2012 I would have looked at the End of May/Early June Dodgers (Leading MLB by 4 games) very differently than the End of June Dodgers (8 game losing streak)

Excellent point. When a team is going bad, anyone can beat them. When they are going good, they can beat anybody.

Obviously, there are teams that are patently bad throughout most of the year, but even Miami can win 5 in a row at some point.

Conversely, the upper echelon rarely slump more than a week to 10 days.

[Jamz]

The biggest difference? The Reds have the best fan-board on the web. It's such a great board it attracts every fanbase. :)

That said I don't think there is much between these two teams. I don't think that the Cards can sustain their current form, but stranger things have happened. I would still favour the Reds in a playoff series if for no other reason than I think their roster is more proven.

[ajswartz888]

The biggest difference? The Reds have the best fan-board on the web. It's such a great board it attracts every fanbase. :)

That said I don't think there is much between these two teams. I don't think that the Cards can sustain their current form, but stranger things have happened. I would still favour the Reds in a playoff series if for no other reason than I think their roster is more proven.
The Reds roster is more proven so you would favor them in a playoff series? More proven? Really? How many guys on the Reds roster have World Series rings? How many have even won a playoff series. I disagree with the more proven theory. Sorry.

[El Bacalao]

The way I see it, the Cardinals are a better team than anyone in the league right now. Arguably, whether they "are" better or have just "played" better is up to individual perception and opinion. Clearly they've scored more runs than the Reds, given up fewer runs than the Reds, won more games than the Reds, and beaten them consistently in head to head meetings thus far in the season. None of which really matters at all when the playoffs arrive. Let the Cardinals and their fans feel superior until October. Then the Reds can either prove them wrong or justify their arrogance.

[WAKEUP]

It's really silly. The Cardinals are the best team in baseball. No one is even close.

The Reds, will compete with about 8 other teams for 2nd best. As of today, The reds are .500 team when they aren't playing the Cubs or Marlins. So I would take the Red Sox, Yankees, Braves, Diamondbacks, Rangers, A's and Tigers over them.

Quite frankly, I'm not impressed with the Reds at all.

And until they compete in a series against the Cardinals, this isn't even a discussion.

[westofyou]

It's really silly. The Cardinals are the best team in baseball. No one is even close.

The Reds, will compete with about 8 other teams for 2nd best. As of today, The reds are .500 team when they aren't playing the Cubs or Marlins. So I would take the Red Sox, Yankees, Braves, Diamondbacks, Rangers, A's and Tigers over them.

Quite frankly, I'm not impressed with the Reds at all.

And until they compete in a series against the Cardinals, this isn't even a discussion.

Gee thanks, come by anytime and talk down to us

[Strike3Called]

The Reds roster is more proven so you would favor them in a playoff series? More proven? Really? How many guys on the Reds roster have World Series rings? How many have even won a playoff series. I disagree with the more proven theory. Sorry.

LOL.

He meant more proven as in they have more experience and you know what you should be able to expect from them going forward. He means the individual players. Look who the cards are relying on: Mujica, Rosenthal, Miller, Lyons, Matt Carpenter playing 2B for the first time, Freese and Beltran you just don't know how many games they'll miss. The Cards have a lot of rookies and fragile players so these are people who aren't 'proven' and if they are proven (in the case of Freese and Beltran) you just don't know how well they'll hold up. The Reds aren't relying on my rookies so your team is more proven.

LOL cant believe you didn't understand what he meant.

[CardsFanBob]

LOL.

He meant more proven as in they have more experience and you know what you should be able to expect from them going forward. He means the individual players. Look who the cards are relying on: Mujica, Rosenthal, Miller, Lyons, Matt Carpenter playing 2B for the first time, Freese and Beltran you just don't know how many games they'll miss. The Cards have a lot of rookies and fragile players so these are people who aren't 'proven' and if they are proven (in the case of Freese and Beltran) you just don't know how well they'll hold up. The Reds aren't relying on my rookies so your team is more proven.

LOL cant believe you didn't understand what he meant.

Yeah, I disagree with you. While we have a bunch of rookies contributing, the heart of this team -- it's leaders and core players -- have been in a TON of playoff games. A couple even have two World Series rings. The experience factor still heavily leans towards the Birds.

[jlcomo]

Yeah, I disagree with you. While we have a bunch of rookies contributing, the heart of this team -- it's leaders and core players -- have been in a TON of playoff games. A couple even have two World Series rings. The experience factor still heavily leans towards the Birds.

When the vast majority of one team has never even won a playoff series it's pretty hard to understand how they could have a leg up on experience.

[Strike3Called]

Yeah, I disagree with you. While we have a bunch of rookies contributing, the heart of this team -- it's leaders and core players -- have been in a TON of playoff games. A couple even have two World Series rings. The experience factor still heavily leans towards the Birds.

Come on man I know we are both card fans but why do you have to do this? You just said that we have 'a bunch' of rookies contributing. In my post I acknowledged that we have proven talent and a whole lot of rookies so whats the point of this post? We have a bunch of rookies contributing, period and they have NO rookies contributing so that means that their players have more proven track records than we do, period. Its not about the playoffs...its about baseball games PERIOD.

You know what...that's my fault and I apologize. You disagree with me. You have the right to disagree with me and I shouldn't get bent out of shape about it. Again...I apologize. Its just that I stay away from Cards boards for this very reason and I lurked here for a long time and didn't have to see posts like this and now these posts are everywhere but that is not your problem and I shouldn't take it out on you.

[SporkLover]

LOL.

He meant more proven as in they have more experience and you know what you should be able to expect from them going forward. He means the individual players. Look who the cards are relying on: Mujica, Rosenthal, Miller, Lyons, Matt Carpenter playing 2B for the first time, Freese and Beltran you just don't know how many games they'll miss. The Cards have a lot of rookies and fragile players so these are people who aren't 'proven' and if they are proven (in the case of Freese and Beltran) you just don't know how well they'll hold up. The Reds aren't relying on my rookies so your team is more proven.

LOL cant believe you didn't understand what he meant.

Regardless of whether they are proven or not...... It's a silly point to argue.

[757690]

Typical Cardinal logic, lol. Experience only counts if it's in the playoffs. Unbelievable.

[westofyou]

Shhh... they is teachin us how to be the best fans ever...

[SporkLover]

Delete

[CardsFanBob]

Come on man I know we are both card fans but why do you have to do this? You just said that we have 'a bunch' of rookies contributing. In my post I acknowledged that we have proven talent and a whole lot of rookies so whats the point of this post? We have a bunch of rookies contributing, period and they have NO rookies contributing so that means that their players have more proven track records than we do, period. Its not about the playoffs...its about baseball games PERIOD.

You know what...that's my fault and I apologize. You disagree with me. You have the right to disagree with me and I shouldn't get bent out of shape about it. Again...I apologize. Its just that I stay away from Cards boards for this very reason and I lurked here for a long time and didn't have to see posts like this and now these posts are everywhere but that is not your problem and I shouldn't take it out on you.

First of all, you must be all jacked up on some Mountain Dew or something. Chill out.

I simply made a clear point that if you compared the two rosters -- the Cards and the Reds -- the Cardinals have played in far more playoff games. That's it.

If you don't think there's a difference between winning a game deep in October and winning a game in the middle of June... Well, you and I just will never agree.



Regardless of whether they are proven or not...... It's a silly point to argue.

I disagree wholeheartedly. There's a much bigger pressure in October baseball. I don't know how anyone can disagree with that.



Typical Cardinal logic, lol. Experience only counts if it's in the playoffs. Unbelievable.

Well, it does make a massive difference. That's not to say that the Reds couldn't win the division or wild card and then win the Series. They absolutely could. They have the talent. They have some postseason experience. But they haven't broken through that ceiling of winning a series.

Look, it took the Cardinals years of stubbing their toes in the playoffs before winning it all in 06 and later in 11. I'd argue that 06 team was one of the least talented to play for St. Louis in years. But when it came time to perform, they did. I absolutely believe it helped that many of the key contributors had played and won meaningful playoff games before.

[757690]

[QUOTE=CardsFanBob;2882621I disagree wholeheartedly. There's a much bigger pressure in October baseball. I don't know how anyone can disagree with that.
Well, it does make a massive difference. That's not to say that the Reds couldn't win the division or wild card and then win the Series. They absolutely could. They have the talent. They have some postseason experience. But they haven't broken through that ceiling of winning a series.

Look, it took the Cardinals years of stubbing their toes in the playoffs before winning it all in 06 and later in 11. I'd argue that 06 team was one of the least talented to play for St. Louis in years. But when it came time to perform, they did. I absolutely believe it helped that many of the key contributors had played and won meaningful playoff games before.[/QUOTE]

The Reds and Cardinals have each made the playoffs twice in the last three seasons. It really doesn't matter how many games in the playoffs they won or played. Playoff experience is playoff experience.

One thing most Cardinals have never done is win a division title. Something many Reds have done twice in the last three seasons. To be honest, it really doesn't matter all that much, what matters is that both teams have been in contention these past three seasons. Just like how many playoff games they won doesn't matter. All that matters is that they experienced the playoffs.

[CardsFanBob]

The Reds and Cardinals have each made the playoffs twice in the last three seasons. It really doesn't matter how many games in the playoffs they won or played. Playoff experience is playoff experience.

One thing most Cardinals have never done is win a division title. Something many Reds have done twice in the last three seasons. To be honest, it really doesn't matter all that much, what matters is that both teams have been in contention these past three seasons. Just like how many playoff games they won doesn't matter. All that matters is that they experienced the playoffs.


I couldn't disagree with you more.

[Strike3Called]

First of all, you must be all jacked up on some Mountain Dew or something. Chill out.

I simply made a clear point that if you compared the two rosters -- the Cards and the Reds -- the Cardinals have played in far more playoff games. That's it.



Trevor Rosenthal has not played in far more playoff games than Brandon Phillips first off. Second I did humbly apologize so id already chilled out before your comment to chill out. Lastly, who has played in more playoff games was not the point another poster and I were talking about when you came in and made the topic about Cardinal playoff experience, so even if your statement was true (which it. isn't) it has nothing to do with the point we were making about the Cardinals having 11 players currently contributing who are either rookies, often injured or playing a defensive position for the first time.

I was talking apples and you came out of nowhere trying to make a point about oranges.

[SporkLover]

I disagree wholeheartedly. There's a much bigger pressure in October baseball. I don't know how anyone can disagree with that.

Way to put words into my mouth. Never said that October experience isn't valuable.

Putting the thread back into context of post back into the context of the post I quoted........ It is a silly point to argue.

[Strike3Called]

Well, 90% of the topics on sports msg boards are silly points to argure if we're being technical.

[RedTeamGo!]

The 06 Cardinals team proves the playoffs are a complete crap-shoot.

[CardsFanBob]

The Reds roster is more proven so you would favor them in a playoff series? More proven? Really? How many guys on the Reds roster have World Series rings? How many have even won a playoff series. I disagree with the more proven theory. Sorry.


LOL.

He meant more proven as in they have more experience and you know what you should be able to expect from them going forward. He means the individual players. Look who the cards are relying on: Mujica, Rosenthal, Miller, Lyons, Matt Carpenter playing 2B for the first time, Freese and Beltran you just don't know how many games they'll miss. The Cards have a lot of rookies and fragile players so these are people who aren't 'proven' and if they are proven (in the case of Freese and Beltran) you just don't know how well they'll hold up. The Reds aren't relying on my rookies so your team is more proven.

LOL cant believe you didn't understand what he meant.


Trevor Rosenthal has not played in far more playoff games than Brandon Phillips first off. Second I did humbly apologize so id already chilled out before your comment to chill out. Lastly, who has played in more playoff games was not the point another poster and I were talking about when you came in and made the topic about Cardinal playoff experience, so even if your statement was true (which it. isn't) it has nothing to do with the point we were making about the Cardinals having 11 players currently contributing who are either rookies, often injured or playing a defensive position for the first time.

I was talking apples and you came out of nowhere trying to make a point about oranges.


I understand it wasn't your original topic, but ajswartz brought up an interesting question, albeit a little early in the season to discuss, but: Who would you favor in a postseason series? The Reds or the Cardinals?

You say the Reds have more experience. If so, wouldn't that say be a determining factor in deciding who would be favored? It's a simple question, and an interesting one... at least to me.

And to answer your question: No, Trevor Rosenthal hasn't played in more playoff games than Brandon Phillips. Rosenthal has pitched in 7 playoff games. Phillips in 8. (Big difference, I know).

Rosie's stat line in those games: 8.2 IP, 2 hits, 2 walks, 15 Ks, 0.00 ERA, and a WHIP of 0.43.

Phillips stat line in the playoffs: 990 OPS, with 2 homers, and 8 RBIs.

Looks like both guys perform well under the bright lights.

[Don Cameron]

Post season experience is overrated. The 1990's Atlanta Braves had a ton of playoff experience and they had one World Series win to show for it. NO ONE cares what a team did or did not do from year to year. Generally, the playoffs reward the team whose pitching staff can sustain dominance for a month' s time. Whether it is two or three starters and a core group of shut down relievers.... But to say experience makes a team better or worse in the post season because the franchise was there the year before is pretty ludicrous. Look at the 1990 World Series. If experience counted for anything, that Series should have been ALL Athletics. But, in then end, Rijo and the bullpen were lights out, and just being there the previous two years did nothing for Oakland.

Don Cameron
The man with the right answers