Make Billy Hamilton Available...

[OneManBand]

I'm a huge B_Ham fan.. But I'm an even a bigger Reds fan. Lets face it... Billy is a one dimensional player.. He's fast... Real fast. Thing is though.. The speed doesn't translate to hits at the AAA level apparently this season. Just don't see a spot for him other then AAA. I'd rather make a run at a corner OFer like Corey Hart and move Bruce to CF or sign a guy like Ellsbury or Chris Young (Doubt Oakland picks up the 11 Million option for 2014) in the offseason. If it means putting together a blockbuster deal that has this team loaded for a real playoff push then we need to pull the trigger. I just think this team has its fair share of offensive issues. We tend to score a lot of runs in games where we are blowing the opposing team out of the water versus games where we are losing 3-0. This team has areas that need to be addressed; catching, OF.. Again I'd like to move Choo over to LF and bring in a CFer or RFer & move Bruce accordingly. I'd even be okay if they acquired a 3rd baseman and moved Frazier to LF and Choo to RF. Michael Young would be the type of player I'd seek there. A leader type guy with an ability to just get on base.

Here is my proposed deal:

Reds trade Homer Bailey, Billy Hamilton, Tucker Barnhart, Henry Rodriguez & Danny Corcino

Phillies trade Cliff Lee, Carlos Ruiz, Michael Young, & Cash

Reds get a nasty arm to go with Cueto & Latos. Lee takes the pressure off Cueto and would be a solid replacement for Arroyo next season. A rotation for 2014 that features Cueto, Lee, Latos, Leake, & Cingrani.. Yikes! Ruiz would help Hanigan & Mes get healthy. Corky is a lovable guy.. Just not at this level. Young as mentioned before would serve as the new 3rd baseman and shift Frazier to the OF. Young takes on a leader role that this team is needing. Rolen served a purpose with this team regardless of his stats. So you add these 3 All-Stars while providing building blocks to the Phils. Reds have had the names in the hat in recent years with names like Cliff Lee, Ubaldo Jimenez, & James Shields.. Lets do the unpredictable and make a huge bid for a pennant!

[dwyerbrg]

I don't know...I don't typically like any deal that moves guys who are 27, 22, 22, and 22 for guys who are 36, 34, and 34, 2 of which are free agents after this year (per B-R).

I also think it's a little early to give up on Hamilton. He tends to be a slow starter, plus he's 22 at AAA.

If the right deal came along, sure, I'd move him, but I don't think this is the right deal. Lee would handcuff this team through 2015 as far as salary is concerned...he makes $25.0M/year through 2015 with a vesting option of $27.5M if he hits 200 IP in 2015 or 400 IP in 14-15. I'm not sure the Phillies would throw in enough cash to offset that huge hit.

It's definitely an interesting idea, but I'm not sure I like it enough...plus as good as Frazier has played 3B, do we really want to start messing with that?

[mattfeet]

It would take less than that to get those players from the Phillies.

[RedlegJake]

Replace Bailey with Lee....a slight upgrade that would only cost 20 million a year. Improve 3B offense with a rent a player while downgrading LF defense at no substantial upgrade to the O. Improve the catching momentarily while trading the closest backup catching prospect the Reds have....with another rent a player. Add millions and millions to this year's payroll with little chance of re-signing either FA acquisition (and deadline acquisitions do not qualify for draft picks if I remember correctly). No. I would not do this deal. Yes, it improves the Reds this season but hurts the future, handcuffs the payroll going forward and gives up on 2 really, really talented prospects and 2 solid but unspectacular ones for three players in the waning years of their careers.

I'd be interested if these player could be had for less as Mattfeet suggests. I think you have good targets but are giving up too much because of the short term aspect of the acquisitions and the huge salary involved.

[BungleBengals]

I really like Billy Hamilton too! I have been following him since the beginning of last season. But I have to disagree with your trade.

Hamilton was our highest prospect ranked in the Top 100 around the Top 20 to be exact. If we were to offer him in a trade I would like to get a big return out of it. It might mean we would have to pair him with other young talent that teams may want like Corcino, Soto, Rodriguez, or even young major league talent like Hoover or Bailey. In return I expect we would get a long term, cheap, and relatively young major league talent that fills a hole.

This team needs to be in a win now mode though too. The long term idea is to make sure we are competitive in the future, but the win now idea has to be top priority too. We are fortunate to have this talent this year. Choo, Latos, and Bailey all need to be extended to stay. Also, we have players like Votto and Phillips who's salary will increase too.

So keeping in mind the talent we are giving up and the priorities to win now and stay competitive in the future, I think the better options include Stanton and Profar. Of course, we would need to get more back than just those two. Maybe try to aquire some younger, high potential prospects so as not to completely thin out the farm.

[MillerTime58]

I don't know...I don't typically like any deal that moves guys who are 27, 22, 22, and 22 for guys who are 36, 34, and 34, 2 of which are free agents after this year (per B-R).

I also think it's a little early to give up on Hamilton. He tends to be a slow starter, plus he's 22 at AAA.

If the right deal came along, sure, I'd move him, but I don't think this is the right deal. Lee would handcuff this team through 2015 as far as salary is concerned...he makes $25.0M/year through 2015 with a vesting option of $27.5M if he hits 200 IP in 2015 or 400 IP in 14-15. I'm not sure the Phillies would throw in enough cash to offset that huge hit.

It's definitely an interesting idea, but I'm not sure I like it enough...plus as good as Frazier has played 3B, do we really want to start messing with that?Nailed it. I would like to add that Hamilton is obviously still very young and does have time to develop still. I think a September call up would to get a few major league ABs would be good for him to build on. That said I don't think he is untouchable, if he can be traded to make the current ML team better this year and the future, I wouldn't mind moving him.

[Alpha Zero]

Like the posters above, I agree that Hamilton isn't untouchable. However, the return would have to include a good, young, controllable player to fill CF, LF, or 3B for the next 3 or 4 years. My personal deadline plan does not include dealing away Hamilton. Here's my proposal:

1. Reds acquire RHP Steve Cishek from the Marlins for Neftali Soto and Chad Rogers.

2. Reds acquire 3B/LF Nick Castellanos from the Tigers for Aroldis Chapman

Castellanos is a top prospect who's ready now and is blocked by one of the best in the game. Also if the Reds aren't going to give Chapman a chance to start, I'd just as soon deal him to an AL squad that is in desperate need of a shutdown reliever. Picking up Cishek mostly offsets the loss of Chapman. He obviously isn't as dominant as Chapman, but I think the end result (SV%) would be just about the same. There's some obvious risk here if Castellanos doesn't pan out, but I think this kind of deal could set up the Reds to remain competitive for the long haul.

[RedlegJake]

Like the posters above, I agree that Hamilton isn't untouchable. However, the return would have to include a good, young, controllable player to fill CF, LF, or 3B for the next 3 or 4 years. My personal deadline plan does not include dealing away Hamilton. Here's my proposal:

1. Reds acquire RHP Steve Cishek from the Marlins for Neftali Soto and Chad Rogers.

2. Reds acquire 3B/LF Nick Castellanos from the Tigers for Aroldis Chapman

Castellanos is a top prospect who's ready now and is blocked by one of the best in the game. Also if the Reds aren't going to give Chapman a chance to start, I'd just as soon deal him to an AL squad that is in desperate need of a shutdown reliever. Picking up Cishek mostly offsets the loss of Chapman. He obviously isn't as dominant as Chapman, but I think the end result (SV%) would be just about the same. There's some obvious risk here if Castellanos doesn't pan out, but I think this kind of deal could set up the Reds to remain competitive for the long haul.

I could get behind these deals. And contender to contender may be the way to go rather than looking for a "seller". The Tigers deal helps both teams and the Reds might get another piece besides Castellanos for Chapman.

[dwyerbrg]

2. Reds acquire 3B/LF Nick Castellanos from the Tigers for Aroldis Chapman

Castellanos is a top prospect who's ready now and is blocked by one of the best in the game. Also if the Reds aren't going to give Chapman a chance to start, I'd just as soon deal him to an AL squad that is in desperate need of a shutdown reliever. Picking up Cishek mostly offsets the loss of Chapman. He obviously isn't as dominant as Chapman, but I think the end result (SV%) would be just about the same. There's some obvious risk here if Castellanos doesn't pan out, but I think this kind of deal could set up the Reds to remain competitive for the long haul.

The question isn't whether the Reds will give him the shot, but if he wants the shot. He's comfortable closing. That's what he does. He's an unknown quantity when it comes to starting. I do wish they'd figured that out earlier, but that ship has sailed and he has likely established himself as a career closer at this point.

That being said, I have no problem moving him for a nice part, whether it be for the now or the future.

[Alpha Zero]

The question isn't whether the Reds will give him the shot, but if he wants the shot. He's comfortable closing. That's what he does. He's an unknown quantity when it comes to starting. I do wish they'd figured that out earlier, but that ship has sailed and he has likely established himself as a career closer at this point.

That being said, I have no problem moving him for a nice part, whether it be for the now or the future.

Chapman was also perfectly comfortable starting his whole life prior to the end of the 2010 season when the Reds converted him to a relief role. The Reds are his employer, so if he's asked to start, he'll start. I think Chapman's comfort level has very little to do with it.

But I do agree that the Aroldis Chapman for starter ship has sailed at this point. He'd only be able to throw 2/3 of a season in 2014 while ramping up his innings totals, and the Reds only control him for a couple of years after that. I don't know if he'd be a disaster or dominant as a starter, but at this point, it's a moot argument.

In the end, he's a reliever. A great reliever, but a reliever nonetheless. If he can be dealt for an excellent prospect or a very good young player, the Reds should pull the trigger.

[westofyou]

What Scouts Are Saying (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=21249)



Reds OF prospect Billy Hamilton (Triple-A Louisville - Reds 2nd round pick of the 2009 draft, Reds no. 1 ranked preseason prospect): "The speed is absolutely fantastic. He's fun to watch when he's on the bases, but I just don't see how it's going to work. There's nothing else that makes me believe he's an everyday big leaguer. You can knock the bat out of his hands with good velocity and he doesn't have the discerning eye to work counts and lay off spin. I just think the hit and on-base comes up short and he's a virtual zero offensively. If he can figure everything out in center field then maybe has a future hitting eighth or ninth and playing good D, but that's even stretching it for me."

[krm1580]

Like the posters above, I agree that Hamilton isn't untouchable. However, the return would have to include a good, young, controllable player to fill CF, LF, or 3B for the next 3 or 4 years. My personal deadline plan does not include dealing away Hamilton. Here's my proposal:

1. Reds acquire RHP Steve Cishek from the Marlins for Neftali Soto and Chad Rogers.

2. Reds acquire 3B/LF Nick Castellanos from the Tigers for Aroldis Chapman

Castellanos is a top prospect who's ready now and is blocked by one of the best in the game. Also if the Reds aren't going to give Chapman a chance to start, I'd just as soon deal him to an AL squad that is in desperate need of a shutdown reliever. Picking up Cishek mostly offsets the loss of Chapman. He obviously isn't as dominant as Chapman, but I think the end result (SV%) would be just about the same. There's some obvious risk here if Castellanos doesn't pan out, but I think this kind of deal could set up the Reds to remain competitive for the long haul.

If the Reds could get a significant upgrade at an everyday position I would absolutely be on board with trading Chapman either at the deadline or in the offseason. I think his value will never be higher (since he won't be starting) and the velocity with which he throws and the velocity with which he drives (and other off field issues), I think he is an inherrently risky asset.

That being said I would want more than Nick Castellanos. He might be a good player but his minor league number and position profile reminds me a lot of Todd Frazier. I would want more than that.

[SpiritofStLouis]

Unless Walt is willing to sacrifice the future and go all in this year, Lee makes absolutely no sense for the Reds.

Sure, he's a top of the rotation pitcher having an excellent season. He's one of the better lefties in the league. He's got a solid post season resume.

He's also 34 and has a contract that will pay him 25 million next year, 25 million in 2015 and anywhere between 12.5 million (buyout) and 27.5 million in 2016 (he will be 37).

I won't go into semantics over the players involved in any trade scenario because I don't see it happening, but were it somehow possible, the Phillies are going to want a lot.

As for Hamilton, I think he is, as of today, overrated. Yes, he's incredibly fast and is a base running machine. But he hasn't hit yet (.300 OBP, doesn't walk, Ks too much) and is average in the OF.

Think about it. The Reds have a sizable hole in the 2 spot and in LF, yet Hamilton doesn't get called up. There's a reason for that. He's not ready.

Until he picks up his game, his trade value is not high.

[armybrat45103]

I was a Hamilton fan for about 10 minutes. Then I looked at his stats. This guy is another Stubbs without the defense. And he is our hope? No way. Trade him now while there is some interest.

[Alpha Zero]

That being said I would want more than Nick Castellanos. He might be a good player but his minor league number and position profile reminds me a lot of Todd Frazier. I would want more than that.

Nick Castellanos is 21 and is hitting well at AAA. When Frazier was 21, he'd just been drafted and was playing rookie ball. Frazier didn't reach the majors until he was 25 and didn't stick until he was 26. Age means a lot when we're talking prospects and upside, so while their numbers may look similar, you have to go a level deeper than that.

I doubt the Tigers would give up much more than Castellanos for Chapman. Maybe a couple of middling prospects, but that'd be about it. You could potentially build a deal around a different player and get a little more quantity, but I'm not familiar enough with the Togers' system to figure that one out.

[REDREAD]

More patience is needed with Hamilton. Geez.
He got about a 1/2 season at high A last year, then maybe 6-8 weeks or so at AA?
The point is that Billy was promoted very aggressively.
He got off to a very slow start at AAA but is improving.
There's no way I give up on Billy at this point.
Maybe Billy isn't ready until 2015. That's fine. It's not really fair to say that Billy is just a one dimensional player (speed). You got to give him time to adjust and develop.
Guy was promoted to AAA and had to learn a new position. Plus he started switch hitting after he was drafted. That's a lot to learn. He's still young. Patience.

There's no way I'd do that proposed trade with the Phillies either.

[SpiritofStLouis]

More patience is needed with Hamilton. Geez.
He got about a 1/2 season at high A last year, then maybe 6-8 weeks or so at AA?
The point is that Billy was promoted very aggressively.
He got off to a very slow start at AAA but is improving.
There's no way I give up on Billy at this point.
Maybe Billy isn't ready until 2015. That's fine. It's not really fair to say that Billy is just a one dimensional player (speed). You got to give him time to adjust and develop.
Guy was promoted to AAA and had to learn a new position. Plus he started switch hitting after he was drafted. That's a lot to learn. He's still young. Patience.

There's no way I'd do that proposed trade with the Phillies either.

I wasn't insinuating that Hamilton's a bust, that's why I made a point to say " as of today ". What I was getting at was that his trade value probably isn't very high right now.

[OneManBand]

What Scouts Are Saying (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=21249)

Exactly.. If he can't hit at the triple A level what makes us think he is a must keep prospect. We hold on to him and then he becomes a less productive Drew Stubbs with more speed and no power what so ever. In 3 years the screeches will be to deal him or demote him.. Just rather capitalize on the hype and get this team at least a pennant or a ring..

[OneManBand]

He got off to a very slow start at AAA but is improving.

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?t=p_pbp&pid=571740

Based on his last 10 games he's declining in average and improving on OBP...

[vottofan4life]

Billy Hamilton, Daniel Corcino, Kyle Lotzkar, Neftali Soto, and Logan Ondrusek for Mark Trumbo and Ernesto Frieri. Book it

[Jmiller21kg]

I would trade Hamilton if you have potential to land a very solid player in return, like Gordon, Rios, Trumbo, etc.

[Red Swagger]

Last winter at the meetings, the Reds ABSOLUTELY should have traded :

Chapman
B Hamilton
Hanigan
Corcino

Think of the package of prospects we could have acquired by dealing these 4, all had the highest trade value that they were going to have. We missed the boat. B Hamilton will NOT HIT, he is NOT an everyday MLB player.

I would have packaged Chapman and Hamilton and acquired a RH # 4, Stanton last year, but too late.

But, now I would call Detroit and offer Chapman and Corcino for Castellanos and Rondon.

Also, I would trade Soto, Lutz and B Hamilton for a few prospects. We need to operate like a small market team, we are not a WS team, wheeling and dealing need to start happening.

We MUST trade players when they reach trade value max, that is not happening. Chapman, Hamilton, Corcino and Hanigan should not be Reds.

Chapman, Hamilton, Soto, Corcino and Lutz

for Profar, M Perez, Olt and Scheppers

[armybrat45103]

Agree with all but I am not ready to give up on Soto. Someone has to replace Frazier at 3rd and he is the only one who can do that.

[jaydeebee21]

Agree with all but I am not ready to give up on Soto. Someone has to replace Frazier at 3rd and he is the only one who can do that.

Thats just stupid. Soto cant play 3rd. Thats the reason he is playing 1st. And his offense isnt good enough to be an everday player at a corner spot.

in 884 PA's at AAA Soto has a .733 OPS i wouldnt field good with that unless he was a good defensive player at short or center field let alone 3rd base.

[757690]

Here is an article about Hamilton.
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/sports/2013/07/19/billy-hamiltons-offense-slammed/
Do you think that will he become another version of Drew Stubbs with no power?

Sounds like an old quote from the beginning of the season, when he was OPSing around .450. If it is, shame on BP.

He's made major adjustments and improvements to his offense since then. I don't think anyone is saying that you can knock the bat out of his hands anymore. He actually has 5 homers this year. He's also extremely young for his league, so comments like that are just bad scouting.

Hamilton may end up being a bust, but it's way too early to say he will have zero to offer offensively.

[gilpdawg]

Sounds like an old quote from the beginning of the season, when he was OPSing around .450. If it is, shame on BP.

He's made major adjustments and improvements to his offense since then. I don't think anyone is saying that you can knock the bat out of his hands anymore. He actually has 5 homers this year. He's also extremely young for his league, so comments like that are just bad scouting.

Hamilton may end up being a bust, but it's way too early to say he will have zero to offer offensively.
It's a current article on BP, and I think it's a valid concern.

[757690]

It's a current article on BP, and I think it's a valid concern.

I know it's a new article. But the quote seems word for word to be a quote a scout said about Hamilton at the beginning of the season, in May. Which would be very bad reporting on BP's part if it is. Or a scout is saying the same thing about Hamilton now that he said in May, which bad scouting, since Hamilton has shown strong improvement since then in the very areas he talked about.

Hamilton's progress is a concern, as is the case with every prospect, even those that put up good stats. But Hamilton no longer looks like pitchers can knock the bat out of his hands, so that specifically isn't a concern, anymore.

[dwyerbrg]

Agree with all but I am not ready to give up on Soto. Someone has to replace Frazier at 3rd and he is the only one who can do that.

Why does someone have to replace Frazier at 3rd? I'd like to see Frazier hit better, but he's playing really good defense. You can't have all-stars at every position, no matter how much we want it.

[dwyerbrg]

Last winter at the meetings, the Reds ABSOLUTELY should have traded :

Chapman
B Hamilton
Hanigan
Corcino

Think of the package of prospects we could have acquired by dealing these 4, all had the highest trade value that they were going to have. We missed the boat. B Hamilton will NOT HIT, he is NOT an everyday MLB player.

I would have packaged Chapman and Hamilton and acquired a RH # 4, Stanton last year, but too late.

But, now I would call Detroit and offer Chapman and Corcino for Castellanos and Rondon.

Also, I would trade Soto, Lutz and B Hamilton for a few prospects. We need to operate like a small market team, we are not a WS team, wheeling and dealing need to start happening.

We MUST trade players when they reach trade value max, that is not happening. Chapman, Hamilton, Corcino and Hanigan should not be Reds.

Chapman, Hamilton, Soto, Corcino and Lutz

for Profar, M Perez, Olt and Scheppers

I know Profar is 20-years old. I know he's hit solidly in the minors. In the ML he's got a slightly better OBP than Cozart now...He also has 7 errors in 44 games splitting time between 2B, SS, & 3B, a solid .958 fielding percentage. He has committed 66 errors at SS in 304 minor league games. Cozart has 8 errors in 87 games...and a .977 fielding percentage. Cozart had 68 errors in 484 minor league games. This team is built to contend (which they are doing)...this is not the time to break in a SS who has consistently struggled to field the ball. The Rangers aren't even doing that since he's logged most of his time at SS. Give me defense at SS and keep Cozart down in the lineup.

[MillerTime58]

Dooming a player at age 22 is just about the silliest thing you can do.

[George Anderson]

Dooming a player at age 22 is just about the silliest thing you can do.

Not silly at all. Players are cut or given up on all the time before the age of 22.

[Alpha Zero]

Last winter at the meetings, the Reds ABSOLUTELY should have traded :

Chapman
B Hamilton
Hanigan
Corcino

Think of the package of prospects we could have acquired by dealing these 4, all had the highest trade value that they were going to have. We missed the boat. B Hamilton will NOT HIT, he is NOT an everyday MLB player.

I would have packaged Chapman and Hamilton and acquired a RH # 4, Stanton last year, but too late.

But, now I would call Detroit and offer Chapman and Corcino for Castellanos and Rondon.

Also, I would trade Soto, Lutz and B Hamilton for a few prospects. We need to operate like a small market team, we are not a WS team, wheeling and dealing need to start happening.

We MUST trade players when they reach trade value max, that is not happening. Chapman, Hamilton, Corcino and Hanigan should not be Reds.

Chapman, Hamilton, Soto, Corcino and Lutz

for Profar, M Perez, Olt and Scheppers

What's your point exactly? Did you know for a fact that Corcino was going to struggle this year? It could have just as easily been Cingrani. Did you know Hanigan would be injured and struggling at the plate?

Hindsight is 20-20. No GM or front office is capable of peering into the future and determining exactly when a guy will get injured or his numbers are going to fall off a cliff.

I agree in principle that one tool guys (Hamilton) and relievers (Chapman) should be traded when their value is sky high, but it's hard to know where that peak is.

[Johnny Fan]

he is at least 1 if not 2 years from being ML ready...

[MillerTime58]

Not silly at all. Players are cut or given up on all the time before the age of 22.None of those players have an elite tool though. A player who just set the professional record for steals in a season is not going to be given up on because of a bad half of a season at AAA. If Drew Stubbs and Homer Bailey can get as many chances as they got, then I think Billy gets at least a couple years in AAA to learn how to get on base.

[George Anderson]

None of those players have an elite tool though. A player who just set the professional record for steals in a season is not going to be given up on because of a bad half of a season at AAA. If Drew Stubbs and Homer Bailey can get as many chances as they got, then I think Billy gets at least a couple years in AAA to learn how to get on base.

Learning and having the talent and ability to get on base are two different things. So far Billy Hamilton has shown he is nothing more than Edwin Moses in a baseball uniform.

[dwyerbrg]

What's your point exactly? Did you know for a fact that Corcino was going to struggle this year? It could have just as easily been Cingrani. Did you know Hanigan would be injured and struggling at the plate?

Hindsight is 20-20. No GM or front office is capable of peering into the future and determining exactly when a guy will get injured or his numbers are going to fall off a cliff.

I agree in principle that one tool guys (Hamilton) and relievers (Chapman) should be traded when their value is sky high, but it's hard to know where that peak is.

The question is whether you work to develop the other tools in the one tool guy, or risk another team developing those tools. Do you sell early? How early is too early? What age is the cutoff on him not developing those other tools?

[redsfanmia]

Billy Hamilton=Herb Washington

[dougdirt]

Yes there is hope. Right now, his swings are a mess and he needs plenty of work with the bat.

[757690]

Learning and having the talent and ability to get on base are two different things. So far Billy Hamilton has shown he is nothing more than Edwin Moses in a baseball uniform.


Billy Hamilton=Herb Washington

I take it neither of you have seen him play.

Billy Hamilton has solid baseball skills and talents, that go behind his speed. He's a very smart baseball player who provides above average defense, and has good baseball instincts. Right now, he could be a very effective 5th outfielder on any MLB team at the very least.

His only major issue is his swing, especially from the left side. But even there, he's hit well above average at every level until he made it to AAA. He may never be a productive MLB starter, but he's much, much more than just a track star in a baseball uniform. He already is a true baseball player.

[RedlegJake]

I still have very high hopes for Billy but the worst thing the Reds can do is rush this kid. He should get another full year in AAA if he needs it. Sometimes you have to ignore the big club's need and be patient. Unless you want to trade in his potential for help now but that would be pretty poor GMing in Billy's case since you almost certainly would be selling low. I'm willing to wait it out.

[bmwreds31]

Why does everyone around just assume choo will be gone next season.


I see no point in letting him go if unless walt makes some serious WIN NOW moves before the deadline. If he just sits on his hands. Than why did we get choo for one year in the first place

[RedlegJake]

They got Choo for one year thinking BH would be ready in 2014. It was a good move then and remains a good move.

[CmdrCody]

Unless Walt is willing to sacrifice the future and go all in this year, Lee makes absolutely no sense for the Reds.

Sure, he's a top of the rotation pitcher having an excellent season. He's one of the better lefties in the league. He's got a solid post season resume.

He's also 34 and has a contract that will pay him 25 million next year, 25 million in 2015 and anywhere between 12.5 million (buyout) and 27.5 million in 2016 (he will be 37).

I won't go into semantics over the players involved in any trade scenario because I don't see it happening, but were it somehow possible, the Phillies are going to want a lot.

As for Hamilton, I think he is, as of today, overrated. Yes, he's incredibly fast and is a base running machine. But he hasn't hit yet (.300 OBP, doesn't walk, Ks too much) and is average in the OF.

Think about it. The Reds have a sizable hole in the 2 spot and in LF, yet Hamilton doesn't get called up. There's a reason for that. He's not ready.

Until he picks up his game, his trade value is not high.

I don't think Hamilton is on the 40 man roster yet. That's the biggest reason he wasn't called up.

[gfas]

I was a Hamilton fan for about 10 minutes. Then I looked at his stats. This guy is another Stubbs without the defense. And he is our hope? No way. Trade him now while there is some interest.

for who?

[Dizzy17]

I'm just curious. Why Hasn't Billy Hamilton been brought up this year? Is his nickname "Sliding Billy" by any chance? There was a "Sliding Billy" Hamilton that played in the 19th Century. His career actually lasted from 1888 to 1901. He stole 914 lifetime bases, including 100 or more FOUR TIMES. 111 in 1888 for the Kansas City Cowboys of the American Association. 102 for the Philadelphia Phillies of the National League in 1889. 111 for the Phillies in 1890. 128 for the Phillies in 1894.

[RedlegJake]

We reincarnated Billy Hamilton from the original because we're RedsZone and we're good!

[gfas]

I'm just curious. Why Hasn't Billy Hamilton been brought up this year? .

.306 OBP at AAA

[OC_Red]

.306 OBP at AAA

^^^

Dude can fly, but right now, he can't get on base.

[bob jones]

like herb washington

[TitosLoveChild]

Billy Hamilton, Daniel Corcino, Kyle Lotzkar, Neftali Soto, and Logan Ondrusek for Mark Trumbo and Ernesto Frieri. Book it

Angels have Trout, Bourjos and Josh Hamilton already for the forseeable future. They also have young 4th and 5th outfielders, Shuck and Calhoun. I dont think they would hold much value over Billy Hamilton.

Theyd want young ML ready starting pitching after the Haren trade. Cingrani?

[KYBatsFan]

Watched the Bats last night (went to see Ludwick, who looked good). Billy Hamilton can't hit to save his life, and the Bats had a good night against Scranton/Wilkes-Barre. It's like the ball is baffling him. Also, he looks very slight and short in comparison to the other AAA players.

[OC_Red]

Watched the Bats last night (went to see Ludwick, who looked good). Billy Hamilton can't hit to save his life, and the Bats had a good night against Scranton/Wilkes-Barre. It's like the ball is baffling him. Also, he looks very slight and short in comparison to the other AAA players.

Didn't he go 2 for 4 with 2 SBs?

[KYBatsFan]

I believe he was 2-5. Trust me, he didn't look good.

[OC_Red]

I believe he was 2-5. Trust me, he didn't look good.

Disappointing. I wonder what has messed him up so badly? I know the quality of pitching is a jump, but I also know that oftentimes it's not THAT great a leap...Hopefully it's a correctable thing and he can become competent at the dish.

[Dizzy17]

Will Billy see The Show in September?

[OC_Red]

Will Billy see The Show in September?

I would hope so...you can't coach the kind of speed he has. Even if it means a pinch-running gig, he should get a taste. I am talking when rosters expand, I would not include him on the post season roster however unless he proves he can hit a bit more.

[bob jones]

post season roster seems a shade optimistic

[lidspinner]

post season roster seems a shade optimistic

I disagree.....having someone you can toss in late in the game as pinch runner and scare the day lights out of the opposing pitcher when the 1 run is needed....or pinch hitting and the threat of a bunt does wonders against teams who are either up 1 run or down 1 run....some teams just can't play well when speed is on the base paths against them......I would love to have billy on the postseason roster.....it's not like he can't mirror what Ceasar is doing, at least for a few weeks.

[bob jones]

what I meant was post season is optimistic as this team is quite marginal

[OC_Red]

Suggesting that the Reds will make the postseason is not being optimistic. Look, I am none too thrilled with the way our boys have played the last two months, but they are STILL 4.5 up on the second wild card in spite of the below .500 run they've had.

I was pretty down after the teeth kicking we got yesterday, but the bottomline is with just over 50 to play the Reds still are in the thick of the playoffs.

Now, do they need to step it up and NOW? Absolutely. I don't deny that one bit. I do deny that the sky is falling however. Go Reds!

[CmdrCody]

Suggesting that the Reds will make the postseason is not being optimistic. Look, I am none too thrilled with the way our boys have played the last two months, but they are STILL 4.5 up on the second wild card in spite of the below .500 run they've had.

I was pretty down after the teeth kicking we got yesterday, but the bottomline is with just over 50 to play the Reds still are in the thick of the playoffs.

Now, do they need to step it up and NOW? Absolutely. I don't deny that one bit. I do deny that the sky is falling however. Go Reds!

I don't see them going far unless they get out of this funk. They will probably only have about a 20% chance to win a one game playoff. I wouldn't rely on either of the junk ball pitchers (Arroyo and Leake) against the Cards.

[OC_Red]

I was just speaking to the suggestion that it was optimistic that the Reds REACH the post season. Advancing in the post season is a whole other thing.

Right now I think a 20% chance is being kind, Commander...sadly...

[CmdrCody]

Sadly true, but I will root for them no matter what.

[OC_Red]

Sadly true, but I will root for them no matter what.

Until my dying day, good sir!

:thumbup:

[Spartan]

Everyone needs to relax with Billy Hamilton. Patience is the key. People forget he is only 22 years old which is quite young for AAA. People forget that Devin Mesoraco hit .228 in his first full year in High A ball and was almost written off as a prospect then took off the next year. Sometimes it takes a little longer for players to adjust. Let's at least give him until next year before we call him a bust.

[CmdrCody]

Everyone needs to relax with Billy Hamilton. Patience is the key. People forget he is only 22 years old which is quite young for AAA. People forget that Devin Mesoraco hit .228 in his first full year in High A ball and was almost written off as a prospect then took off the next year. Sometimes it takes a little longer for players to adjust. Let's at least give him until next year before we call him a bust.

I would like to see him in a September call up this year, even only as a pitch runner.

[RedlegJake]

I would like to see him in a September call up this year, even only as a pitch runner.

I'd like that too, just to let him see and taste the experience, and give him a look into the game at the big league level - and he could be a weapon as a PR in some situations, maybe get a few ABs in blowouts. Mostly, though, to let him talk to guys like Votto and Choo on a daily basis. Then let him go back to AAA next season and see how he adjusts and if he improves. The worst thing they can do is try to force him too soon - he is still plenty young to have patience.