Pete Rose, a block away and impossibly far from the Hall of Fame

[Pacman Fever]

July 27, 2013 at 11:48am EDT

There’s no great way to get to Cooperstown from New York City. But they’re all kind of great. No matter which series of winding state roads you take to get from the Thruway to the home of the Baseball Hall of Fame, you’re sure to pass expanses of green Catskills, mountain lakes, quaint little towns, and cornfields. Bob Ross stuff.

Pete Rose loves baseball, so Pete Rose loves Cooperstown. And Cooperstown — the Hall of Fame notably excepted — seems to love Pete Rose back. I chatted with Rose for over an hour on Thursday as he signed autographs at Safe at Home Collectibles, about 100 yards from the Hall. Nearly every fan that approached Rose came prepared with an anecdote from Rose’s career or a remark about the way he played. And Rose earnestly matched them all, recalling specifics from long-ago games and dolling out advice.

“My son’s a switch-hitter, just like you,” says one man, nodding toward a nervous kid wearing a baseball cap pulled low over his face.

Rose looks at the boy, who is no older than nine.

“You know the tough thing about switch hitting?” the all-time Major League hits leader says. “Don’t practice the new way so much that you get out of the original way. There’s only one switch-hitter in the history of baseball that I know of that was a natural left-hand hitter, and his name was J.T. Snow…”

“Thank you, Mr. Rose,” the man says. “I hope you make the Hall of Fame.”

“You’re going to bat left-handed two-thirds of the time,” Rose calls after the kid.

I love baseball, too. And I left for Cooperstown convinced that a manager gambling on baseball, as Rose did while piloting the Cincinnati Reds in the late 1980s, jeopardizes the game’s integrity in a far more sinister way than any of the sport’s recent and oft-lamented performance-enhancing drug scandals.

Players taking steroids are, for better or worse, still doing everything they can to win ballgames. Players or coaches gambling on baseball threaten the fundamental nature of the contest, which assumes that both teams are working to succeed.

Rose knows so much about the game. He shares historical tidbits and contemporary observations with equal ease, and across the course of our conversation he weighs in on everything from batting grips to Robinson Cano’s pending free agency to MLB team facial-hair policies of the 1970s. He acknowledges that what he did was wrong, and he knows he broke the rules. But he doesn’t see a parallel between his ban and the bans given to eight members of the 1919 Chicago White Sox.

“That’s not like my case!” he says. “I didn’t bet against my own team. I didn’t throw any games. Those guys threw World Series games, you know that? That’s a big difference between that and betting on your own team every night. That’s like a guy in the Kentucky Derby riding the No. 3 horse betting on No. 2!”

But how could a manager stop himself from managing differently on the nights he’s betting?

“That’s why I bet every night,” he says. “I managed one way every night, to W-I-N.”

No one but Rose can say if that’s true. But given everything we know about Pete Rose, it sure sounds believable. Rose is Charlie Hustle, after all, as legendary for his head-first effort as he is for his record. He is the guy who fractured catcher Ray Fosse’s shoulder in a home-plate collision to win the All-Star Game, way before the All-Star Game even pretended to count.

To an outsider, it’s easy to imagine the various ways someone betting on baseball games he’s involved in could compromise them. But maybe to a guy like Rose it’s more difficult to comprehend. Maybe the almost unimaginable drive and competitiveness required to play 22 Major League seasons, those qualities which helped Rose make 17 All-Star teams and rack up 4,256 hits, prevent him from even conceiving of working toward any end but a win.

“I just needed something extra,” Rose says. “That was my mistake. Managing wasn’t enough. It wasn’t enough incentive for me.”

A father and son approach. The son takes a seat next to Rose for a photograph, and the father boasts, “His uncle’s first cousin is Mike Piazza.”

“Mike Piazza,” Rose repeats. “He should be being honored here this Sunday. That’s my opinion. He’s the greatest hitting catcher in baseball history, no question about it. Best all-around catcher is Johnny Bench.”

Neither Piazza nor any other living player will be honored in Cooperstown on Sunday. Piazza, like every great player of the late 1990s and early 2000s, fell short of the necessary votes this year because he hit lots of home runs and played his best baseball during the sport’s so-called steroids era.

Piazza never failed a test and was not listed in the Mitchell Report. In his 2013 autobiography, he denied taking performance-enhancers beyond the over-the-counter Androstenedione and amphetamines – baseball’s once-ubiquitous “greenies,” which Rose dismisses as “diet pills” that provide only “false confidence.”

“This whole community suffers when these guys deserving to make the Hall of Fame don’t make the Hall of Fame,” Rose says of Cooperstown. “It’s bad for the whole damn village.”

If that’s true, it’s hard to tell Thursday. Youth baseball tournaments in the area, coinciding with Induction Weekend, have the shops and restaurants in the area bustling with young families. It’s almost impossible to find street parking anywhere nearby.

I happen to believe steadfastly that great baseball players should make the Hall of Fame regardless of off-field indiscretions, and that the Hall should eliminate the character clause from its annual ballot. It seems pointless, or at least ill-considered, to punish great players who used steroids when the Hall already holds plenty of guys that scuffed balls and corked bats and distributed greenies.

“It’s not all altar boys in there,” says Rose.

Rose knows he made a mistake, and wants a second chance. He believes that if he’s reinstated, he can help baseball. He says he would love to visit minor league camps during spring training to tell young players his story and explain how they can learn from it.

But what if Rose is already helping baseball by sitting there in the memorabilia shop shaking hands and signing cards a block away — but indelibly removed — from the Hall of Fame? Rose has come to Cooperstown for the induction every year since 1994. He stays in an apartment above the store, shows up 15 minutes early for his scheduled autograph sessions and stays a half-hour late. He accommodates media requests and calls into radio shows around the country to discuss baseball’s latest controversy in light of his own.

He wants to win, again, but in his efforts to do so, he serves as a walking, talking reminder to all he encounters of what happens to baseball insiders who bet on baseball.

Still, if I’m to maintain that steroids users deserve spots in the Hall of Fame on the strength of their on-field accomplishments, it’s silly to argue that Rose does not. All 4,256 of his hits still count in the box scores, after all. And it feels a bit coldhearted to say that a man so dedicated to baseball – even one that committed competitive sports’ cardinal sin – does not deserve the game’s forgiveness after some 20 years spent toiling in purgatory, here in baseball heaven.

Cooperstown is a beautiful place and it exists in service to baseball — one of our most beautiful pastimes. Pete Rose did something ugly, as did Barry Bonds, as did legions of ballplayers throughout the game’s history.

It’s impossible to know whether the punishments these players have received at the hands of baseball, the media, and even the fans are just. Without knowing what these players think – without being them – who is to know if they feel genuine remorse, or if they even should? And no matter how frequently or vigorously we claim otherwise, we just can’t really say for certain whether rigidity or leniency is better for the game or the children or the Hall of Fame itself.

“What athletes do today, even me, we make these commissioners jobs hard,” Rose says. “Bud Selig doesn’t want to go through all this (stuff) right now. It drives him crazy, probably.

“We’ve just got to find away to get athletes – including myself – to be more responsible.”

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2013/07/pete-rose-hall-of-fame-induction-weekend-gambling-peds/

[CmdrCody]

Nice article, I just wish he hadn't lied to all his fans saying he didn't do it. That sort of makes him the Ryan Braun of his day.:(

[NorCal Reds Fan]

Personally, I think it's ridiculous that players like Rose and Bonds are kept out of the HOF. It's a bunch of self-important writers, many of whom haven't even covered baseball in any meaningful way for years, who arrogantly and self-righteously appoint themselves as the "guardians" of baseball. Please. Pete Rose should be in, and as much as I don't care for Bonds, his Ruthian-type numbers dwarfed his contemporaries and he also belongs.

[BluegrassRedleg]

I won't be patronizing the HoF until he's in, and will never be there if it's done posthumously.

Made a big mistake, and he paid for it dearly. It's time to move on.

[RedsBaron]

I made my first visit to Cooperstown last year. The Hall of Fame is well worth a visit, and Pete Rose is "there." He doesn't have a plaque but (at least last year) Rose memorablia is on display. It is not necessary to induct a player into the HOF in order to remember him there.
Besides, when an institution deems Bowie Kuhn (and eventually Bud Selig) to worthy members of the HOF, the honor has lost some luster.

[BungleBengals]

I honestly think that both styles of 'cheating' should be allowed in the HOF. Look at McGwire, Sosa, Conseco, and Bonds. They are the result of an era of juicing. A case can be made that they sacrificed their bodies to win games. They still swung the bats and still showed up to all the games. Plus as evidenced with Biogenesis, the testing and catching of users is still behind the science of PEDs. I am willing to bet that at least 1 if not more guys in the Hall have at least juiced before since testing was not that sofisticated.

Even so, Pete's betting is still a sin to the game. But it only affected one team for a few years. Guys using PEDs have affected history as unthinkable records were broken and names from history forgotten. Pete's playing days warrant him at least ballot consideration. The fact that the juiceheads get their names on the ballots is a joke.

The writers should think about children and upcoming ballplayers. Who are they going to be more inspiring and awestruck by when roaming the exhibits in the Hall? Seeing some insanely built power hitter hitting 73 homerun in a season montage or see Pete Rose run to first on a walk or do a head first slide into third or knocking out Fosse at homeplate?

[dougdirt]

Even so, Pete's betting is still a sin to the game. But it only affected one team for a few years. Guys using PEDs have affected history as unthinkable records were broken and names from history forgotten. Pete's playing days warrant him at least ballot consideration. The fact that the juiceheads get their names on the ballots is a joke.


Pete was gambling on games for a long time, not just a few years.

[lidspinner]

Pete was gambling on games for a long time, not just a few years.


Doug, I dont want to get into a huge debate over this....but have you read the report. Or have you just skimmed the dowd here and there.....it took me 3 weeks to read it all.....3 weeks. I have done numerous reports on Pete rose when I was a English major and again when I went to law school....there is a lot one can learn from simple reading the report and researching his life. A simple yes or no will suffice if you have read the entire report or not.

[dougdirt]

Doug, I dont want to get into a huge debate over this....but have you read the report. Or have you just skimmed the dowd here and there.....it took me 3 weeks to read it all.....3 weeks. I have done numerous reports on Pete rose when I was a English major and again when I went to law school....there is a lot one can learn from simple reading the report and researching his life. A simple yes or no will suffice if you have read the entire report or not.

I read his book where he admits to gambling on the game as both a player and a manager. I have never read the report. Don't really need to.

[lidspinner]

I read his book where he admits to gambling on the game as both a player and a manager. I have never read the report. Don't really need to.

thank you for the honesty.

[bob jones]

I wish he did not warm up Rob Murphy every game

[dougdirt]

thank you for the honesty.

Of course. There is no need to lie about something so trivial.

[lidspinner]

Of course. There is no need to lie about something so trivial.

I never once thought you were lying or would lie....I admire your professionalism with Baseball and how you handle your opinions.....I was merely asking because most people I debate Pete rose topics with see far from educated about Pete....now, I am not saying your not educated simply because you did not read the dowd, but reading it from from to back and in its 100% entirety, I was educated to a completely different phase of "the Pete Rose life"......I went from being a fan but still someone who was mad and hurt and embarrassed that my childhood favorite player was a cheat, to seeing a different side of the whole story.

Let me give just one example....I have hundreds but this is a simple example. A bookie in the report had just filed bankruptcy and was not doing good as a book maker or in his real career as a restaurant owner.....Pete had used this bookie for about 2 years off and on.....this bookie was paid 100k for his testimony by an associate of Dowds....this "bookie" basically had 1 client and that client was Pete.....now, once you research this cat and see that he was truly not a bookie, yet was just a friend of Pete's that Pete would use to place his bets then you also can find how's Mr Dowd referred to this one guys testimony to about 95% of his "findings".......again, I am not saying Pete was innocent as even Pete himself has said he used this restaurant owner as his bookie, but this guy was paid and paid well and was broke.....it doesn't prove innocence but I do think it proves that some of the report could have been forged but "bookies" who were financially paid very well to provide info on Pete....I have a hard time putting my faith in a person who is only giving his side of the story based on how well he is paid.

Lets fast forward to the biogenesis report.....the owner has been paid by MLB....we don't know how much just yet but we know that baseball sent people to his house and offered money to talk.....think about that, he already has "dirt" on all these players cheating, you think he might create a little more dirt or make it sound a little worse than it truly is if he thinks MLB is going to keep coughing up the coin? Sure he is. So if arod bought hgh just once from this guy and he has 100% proof, he might tell MLB that Alex bought hgh 100 times just to keep them wanting more info and paying more moment,,..after all, who is going to believe Alex? This whistle blower has already proved that Alex bought hgh when Alex denied it....so who is going to believe Alex now? All the while this biogenesis owner is sitting back making tons of cash by telling lies and possible forging documents to prove his lie....all they have is written on paper....he could have wrote those names down on paper once he realized MLB would pay topmdollar for good info on good players......think about it, how many AAA players are on the list? How many .200 average hitters? The guy gave big time names.....maybe that's all he helped, but just maybe he is telling a fib in order to make some cash, just as I think some bookies did in the dowd.....in both cases they are still wrong and stil need to be punished but I just don't know how much I can trust.

Reading the dowd will open some eyes if you read it with an open mind...if your already convinced that Pete gambled on every reds game and gambled them to lose then reading it might not help your opinion any.

[armybrat45103]

Personally, I think it's ridiculous that players like Rose and Bonds are kept out of the HOF. It's a bunch of self-important writers, many of whom haven't even covered baseball in any meaningful way for years, who arrogantly and self-righteously appoint themselves as the "guardians" of baseball. Please. Pete Rose should be in, and as much as I don't care for Bonds, his Ruthian-type numbers dwarfed his contemporaries and he also belongs.

The Hall of Fame is about more than stats. It is also about integrity, honor, and professionalism. Bonds and Rose fail, miserably, on all accounts. Rose became a clown when he started chasing the dollar bill anywhere it would lead him and became an embarrassment for baseball, the city of Cincinnati, his family, and himself. The fact that people still defend this joke is beyond me. Should he be honored in the same hall as Ruth, Aaron, Bench, Morgan, etc. No way, IMO. There are items which lament Rose's accomplishments. That is enough. Why slime a building of honor by allowing Rose and Bonds in? Knowing Rose, he will probably demand cash (no checks) to show up anyway.

[joshua]

The Hall of Fame is about more than stats. It is also about integrity, honor, and professionalism. Bonds and Rose fail, miserably, on all accounts. Rose became a clown when he started chasing the dollar bill anywhere it would lead him and became an embarrassment for baseball, the city of Cincinnati, his family, and himself. The fact that people still defend this joke is beyond me. Should he be honored in the same hall as Ruth, Aaron, Bench, Morgan, etc. No way, IMO. There are items which lament Rose's accomplishments. That is enough. Why slime a building of honor by allowing Rose and Bonds in? Knowing Rose, he will probably demand cash (no checks) to show up anyway.

Cobb was 1,000x the scumbag Pete, Bonds or McGwire ever were. If you want to protect whatever imaginary integrity the you believe the hall has, protest to get Cobb kicked out.

If trash like Cobb get 98% of the vote, then Pete, Bonds etc. at least deserve to be on the ballot

[dougdirt]

I never once thought you were lying or would lie....I admire your professionalism with Baseball and how you handle your opinions.....I was merely asking because most people I debate Pete rose topics with see far from educated about Pete....now, I am not saying your not educated simply because you did not read the dowd, but reading it from from to back and in its 100% entirety, I was educated to a completely different phase of "the Pete Rose life"......I went from being a fan but still someone who was mad and hurt and embarrassed that my childhood favorite player was a cheat, to seeing a different side of the whole story.

Let me give just one example....I have hundreds but this is a simple example. A bookie in the report had just filed bankruptcy and was not doing good as a book maker or in his real career as a restaurant owner.....Pete had used this bookie for about 2 years off and on.....this bookie was paid 100k for his testimony by an associate of Dowds....this "bookie" basically had 1 client and that client was Pete.....now, once you research this cat and see that he was truly not a bookie, yet was just a friend of Pete's that Pete would use to place his bets then you also can find how's Mr Dowd referred to this one guys testimony to about 95% of his "findings".......again, I am not saying Pete was innocent as even Pete himself has said he used this restaurant owner as his bookie, but this guy was paid and paid well and was broke.....it doesn't prove innocence but I do think it proves that some of the report could have been forged but "bookies" who were financially paid very well to provide info on Pete....I have a hard time putting my faith in a person who is only giving his side of the story based on how well he is paid.

Lets fast forward to the biogenesis report.....the owner has been paid by MLB....we don't know how much just yet but we know that baseball sent people to his house and offered money to talk.....think about that, he already has "dirt" on all these players cheating, you think he might create a little more dirt or make it sound a little worse than it truly is if he thinks MLB is going to keep coughing up the coin? Sure he is. So if arod bought hgh just once from this guy and he has 100% proof, he might tell MLB that Alex bought hgh 100 times just to keep them wanting more info and paying more moment,,..after all, who is going to believe Alex? This whistle blower has already proved that Alex bought hgh when Alex denied it....so who is going to believe Alex now? All the while this biogenesis owner is sitting back making tons of cash by telling lies and possible forging documents to prove his lie....all they have is written on paper....he could have wrote those names down on paper once he realized MLB would pay topmdollar for good info on good players......think about it, how many AAA players are on the list? How many .200 average hitters? The guy gave big time names.....maybe that's all he helped, but just maybe he is telling a fib in order to make some cash, just as I think some bookies did in the dowd.....in both cases they are still wrong and stil need to be punished but I just don't know how much I can trust.

Reading the dowd will open some eyes if you read it with an open mind...if your already convinced that Pete gambled on every reds game and gambled them to lose then reading it might not help your opinion any.

I don't know if Pete ever gambled on the Reds to lose. Frankly though, it doesn't matter. He gambled on the game. A lot. For years and years. He eventually admitted to it. At this point, nothing in the Dowd Report matters because Pete's own words say that he gambled on the game while playing and while managing.

[armybrat45103]

Cobb was 1,000x the scumbag Pete, Bonds or McGwire ever were. If you want to protect whatever imaginary integrity the you believe the hall has, protest to get Cobb kicked out.

If trash like Cobb get 98% of the vote, then Pete, Bonds etc. at least deserve to be on the ballot

Cobb DID NOT bet on baseball. Cobb DID NOT shoot himself full of steroids. During his day, Cobb played the game with the same hard nosed style that Rose was famous for. Was Cobb an arse? Yeah. Temper? Yeah. But Cobb also mellowed out and came to grips about who he was and made an effort to change before he was inducted and did so for his own peace of mind, not for a pay check as Rose did. To put Cobb in with Rose and Bonds is a stretch.

[RedlegJake]

actually brat, Cobb was known to bet on baseball and was, with Tris Speaker brought before the commissioner for possible disbarment. They were "exonerated" though sportswriters investigating the whole debacle now say there was actually quite a bit of evidence damning both famous players. Baseball didn't want another huge blackeye so soon after the Blacksox scandal and the matter was swept away.

[bob jones]

rose hurt the careers of Nick Esasky and Rob Murphy

[George Anderson]

Cobb DID NOT bet on baseball. Cobb DID NOT shoot himself full of steroids. During his day, Cobb played the game with the same hard nosed style that Rose was famous for. Was Cobb an arse? Yeah. Temper? Yeah. But Cobb also mellowed out and came to grips about who is was and made an effort to change before he was inducted and did so for his own peace of mind, not for a pay check as Rose did. To put Cobb in with Rose and Bonds is a stretch.

Cobb was no angel and he had the reputation of being very mean man but Cobb was an incredibly charitable and generous man. I get very tired of people rewriting history to make him to out be some type of devil.

Here is an excellent article that makes an excellent case that this racist stuff against Cobb is very much overblown by the media.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/43506-ty-cobb-was-not-a-racist

[armybrat45103]

actually brat, Cobb was known to bet on baseball and was, with Tris Speaker brought before the commissioner for possible disbarment. They were "exonerated" though sportswriters investigating the whole debacle now say there was actually quite a bit of evidence damning both famous players. Baseball didn't want another huge blackeye so soon after the Blacksox scandal and the matter was swept away.

The key word here is exonerated. We can make all kinds of assumptions 70 years later as to why, but the fact remains that he was not found to have betted on baseball and they did not pursue it further. Enough for me.

[BASEBALL FAN]

Actually baseball had a letter from Dutch Leonard, a pitcher at the time. Essentially, Speaker and Cobb met under the stands to throw a game, because the second place team did receive cash at the end of the season.

Because of Cobb and Speaker's actions--Cobb lost his managerial gig with the Tigers and was released. Only to be picked up the following year by the Philadelphia A's.

[lidspinner]

Exonerated.....could you imagine if Cobb was in today's game with today's media? Or even the media when Pete played? Cobb was exonerated as to not give the game the black eye, it's almost been wrote off as fact that Cobb was thought of as doing no better than the 8 idiots with the sox......now, we have no proof so all we can do it look at the facts, and the facts say he was innocent......so I am fine with giving him a pass but he still has to be part of the equation when evaluating the integrity of the HOF......doesn't make the hall bad by no means, but Ty Cobb still is down in a ton of literature as being a prick and a known associate to gamblers and was known to gamble on baseball frequently.....but again, as far as facts go, Ty is innocent......I have more issues with the PED users anyhow...they affect so many more facets of the game than a guy betting on his team to win....I also can't stand the fact that baseball allows cocaine users and wife beaters to roam free is the league....cocaine was more of an issue in the 80's and 90's than it is now but they existed and baseball did not run them away. That frustrates me...sorry to get off topic

[armybrat45103]

Research Kenesaw Mountain Landis then get back with me if you still think he would be the type to sweep things under a rug.

[BluegrassRedleg]

The Hall of Fame is about more than stats. It is also about integrity, honor, and professionalism. Bonds and Rose fail, miserably, on all accounts. Rose became a clown when he started chasing the dollar bill anywhere it would lead him and became an embarrassment for baseball, the city of Cincinnati, his family, and himself. The fact that people still defend this joke is beyond me. Should he be honored in the same hall as Ruth, Aaron, Bench, Morgan, etc. No way, IMO. There are items which lament Rose's accomplishments. That is enough. Why slime a building of honor by allowing Rose and Bonds in? Knowing Rose, he will probably demand cash (no checks) to show up anyway.

That shrine is full of a-holes, bigots and outlaws who make Pete Rose look like Ned Flanders. I respect your opinion if you feel he should be barred for eternity, but not on the basis of any kind of honor and integrity.

[dougdirt]

That shrine is full of a-holes, bigots and outlaws who make Pete Rose look like Ned Flanders. I respect your opinion if you feel he should be barred for eternity, but not on the basis of any kind of honor and integrity.

I get what you are saying, but no, they don't make Pete look like Ned Flanders. Pete is a liar, a gambler and a cheater (on women). There are certainly worse in the HOF, but let's not take things overboard.

[GAC]

Personally, I think it's ridiculous that players like Rose and Bonds are kept out of the HOF. It's a bunch of self-important writers, many of whom haven't even covered baseball in any meaningful way for years, who arrogantly and self-righteously appoint themselves as the "guardians" of baseball. Please. Pete Rose should be in, and as much as I don't care for Bonds, his Ruthian-type numbers dwarfed his contemporaries and he also belongs.

The difference is though -at least IMO - is that while Rose broke a rule concerning gambling, his "Ruthian-type numbers", unlike Bonds, didn't come from performance-enhancing drugs.

Bonds was a helluva ballplayer. IMO, with his natural talent and ability alone (like his Dad), he would have put up solid career numbers that would have probably guaranteed him a spot in the HOF.

But his ego got in the way when he saw what McGwire and Sosa were doing, and all the attention they were getting, and he used steroids which, IMO, inflated those numbers to a certain degree.

Rose not only broke a rule, but IMO, due to his ego, flaunted it, and deserved to be punished, and punished severely. But to what degree of severity? Isn't almost 25 years enough? Even criminals within our society, who have done far worse then a Pete Rose, are given the opportunity at a second chance.

Pete Rose not only lived for the game of baseball, gave it everything he got, but contributed greatly to the game. And while his gambling shouldn't (and won't be) forgotten - he'll always have that hanging over his head the rest of his life no matter what - those wrong actions shouldn't overshadow, or cause us to ignore, what he contributed to the game.

Some sort of compromise needs to be reached between MLB and Pete Rose. IMO, it has gone on long enough. And I think most of us who are now older, and grew up as a kid with Rose, the player, would agree.

He should be in the HOF for what he accomplished on that field. He should never be allowed to manage again at the major league level; but I think Pete - and I think it's something he'd love to do - should be allowed to work somehow within the ranks of the minors.

Give the guy a chance to redeem himself somehow towards a game that was his passion in life while he's still alive.

That's my take.

[LoganBuck]

Because of my extreme disdain for all things Pete Rose, I have never been to Gold Star Chilli.

[RedlegJake]

Research Kenesaw Mountain Landis then get back with me if you still think he would be the type to sweep things under a rug.

I have researched Kennesaw and yes, for the game he loved, and for what he perceived as the greater good he would, and most certainly did, sweep it under the rug. He often acted with disregard for facts, or for evidence, throwing out players merely suspected of wrongdoing, while turning a blind eye to others - the difference was always the impact on the game in his mind. Cobb became a much better man later in life, when the competitive fires that burned so fiercely in baseball died out. I don't argue against his inclusion in the HoF. Similar to the way baseball turned a blind eye to steroids in the 90s and 00s, baseball had turned a blind eye to gambling since its inception until it became such a scandal that the game was threatened with ruin by the Black Sox scandal. The owners parsimonious ways also had players looking for means to add to their income and gambling was the answer for some. It was WIDESPREAD and did not end with the Series scandal but lingered behind the scenes through the twenties before it was pretty much eliminated by the commissioners strong handling and stiff penalties. Cobb and Speaker threatened retaliatory suits and the evidence was circumstantial, both were huge stars and Landis felt, I believe, that both had paid a penalty already, and that baseball was better served NOT banning them.

[Goose]

I get what you are saying, but no, they don't make Pete look like Ned Flanders. Pete is a liar, a gambler and a cheater (on women). There are certainly worse in the HOF, but let's not take things overboard.

I don't even want to think of the percentage of players in the hall that cheated on their wives. Pete did lie for a long time, but so did Giamatti and MLB in his case. Here is a copy of a post I made on ORG about it that got buried quickly.



/The Pete Rose deal with the lifetime ban and a chance to appeal every year was always a shady deal in my opinion. As I recall, the deal stated that MLB could not state that Pete bet on baseball. However, that is basically what they did as soon as the deal was announced.

I think Pete and his lawyers knew that MLB had the evidence. So they agreed to the lifetime ban with a chance to appeal every year. They believed that since baseball couldn't say he bet on baseball, that he would be reinstated in a year or two. They were counting on using a lawyer technicality escape clause.

I never understood how Giamatti and MLB could basically sign an agreement with Rose and then break it the next day in a press conference. I believe there is no way Pete believed it would be a lifetime ban, otherwise he never would have signed it./

[Tony Cloninger]

Research Kenesaw Mountain Landis then get back with me if you still think he would be the type to sweep things under a rug.

Like not allowing blacks to play baseball and then sweeping that under the rug as something other than what it was.

[Tony Cloninger]

Personally, I think it's ridiculous that players like Rose and Bonds are kept out of the HOF. It's a bunch of self-important writers, many of whom haven't even covered baseball in any meaningful way for years, who arrogantly and self-righteously appoint themselves as the "guardians" of baseball. Please. Pete Rose should be in, and as much as I don't care for Bonds, his Ruthian-type numbers dwarfed his contemporaries and he also belongs.

Pete Rose is NOT on the ballot. The writers have NO control over that.

[bob jones]

agree great post, and tony cloninger nailed those grnd slams off ray sadecki

[dougdirt]

I don't even want to think of the percentage of players in the hall that cheated on their wives. Pete did lie for a long time, but so did Giamatti and MLB in his case. Here is a copy of a post I made on ORG about it that got buried quickly.



/The Pete Rose deal with the lifetime ban and a chance to appeal every year was always a shady deal in my opinion. As I recall, the deal stated that MLB could not state that Pete bet on baseball. However, that is basically what they did as soon as the deal was announced.

I think Pete and his lawyers knew that MLB had the evidence. So they agreed to the lifetime ban with a chance to appeal every year. They believed that since baseball couldn't say he bet on baseball, that he would be reinstated in a year or two. They were counting on using a lawyer technicality escape clause.

I never understood how Giamatti and MLB could basically sign an agreement with Rose and then break it the next day in a press conference. I believe there is no way Pete believed it would be a lifetime ban, otherwise he never would have signed it./

Maybe if Pete didn't want to be banned for life he shouldn't have broken a rule that he knew would lead to such a ban.

[dougdirt]

Rose not only broke a rule, but IMO, due to his ego, flaunted it, and deserved to be punished, and punished severely. But to what degree of severity? Isn't almost 25 years enough? Even criminals within our society, who have done far worse then a Pete Rose, are given the opportunity at a second chance.

They don't all get a second chance. Some are punished for life. Just like Pete.

[Goose]

Maybe if Pete didn't want to be banned for life he shouldn't have broken a rule that he knew would lead to such a ban.

I didn't say anything about that, was just pointing out the shadiness of Giamatti and MLB. Makes me wonder about their honesty and ethics as well. Something to think about as they go after ARod and others.

[dougdirt]

I didn't say anything about that, was just pointing out the shadiness of Giamatti and MLB. Makes me wonder about their honesty and ethics as well. Something to think about as they go after ARod and others.

I don't think anything they did was shady. They clearly had the evidence. They weren't supposed to tell the truth about it and they did? That isn't shady IMO. The report was going to come out even if they didn't say anything. People were going to ask questions. Pete wasn't just going to all of a sudden vanish from the game and no one was going to ask why?

[armybrat45103]

I have researched Kennesaw and yes, for the game he loved, and for what he perceived as the greater good he would, and most certainly did, sweep it under the rug. He often acted with disregard for facts, or for evidence, throwing out players merely suspected of wrongdoing, while turning a blind eye to others - the difference was always the impact on the game in his mind. Cobb became a much better man later in life, when the competitive fires that burned so fiercely in baseball died out. I don't argue against his inclusion in the HoF. Similar to the way baseball turned a blind eye to steroids in the 90s and 00s, baseball had turned a blind eye to gambling since its inception until it became such a scandal that the game was threatened with ruin by the Black Sox scandal. The owners parsimonious ways also had players looking for means to add to their income and gambling was the answer for some. It was WIDESPREAD and did not end with the Series scandal but lingered behind the scenes through the twenties before it was pretty much eliminated by the commissioners strong handling and stiff penalties. Cobb and Speaker threatened retaliatory suits and the evidence was circumstantial, both were huge stars and Landis felt, I believe, that both had paid a penalty already, and that baseball was better served NOT banning them.
We are going to have to agree to disagree on that. Landis was a man on a mission and that mission was to rid baseball of gambling. Had Cobb been involved, Landis would have sent in a mob to take him to the gallows.

[Goose]

I don't think anything they did was shady. They clearly had the evidence. They weren't supposed to tell the truth about it and they did? That isn't shady IMO. The report was going to come out even if they didn't say anything. People were going to ask questions. Pete wasn't just going to all of a sudden vanish from the game and no one was going to ask why?

Agreeing to one thing and doing the opposite the next day is shady in my book.

[lidspinner]

I don't think anything they did was shady. They clearly had the evidence. They weren't supposed to tell the truth about it and they did? That isn't shady IMO. The report was going to come out even if they didn't say anything. People were going to ask questions. Pete wasn't just going to all of a sudden vanish from the game and no one was going to ask why?


you dont think paying a bookie enough money to assure that he never has to work again is not shady? basically, MLB paid a criminal(s) money to tell his side of the story....then a month after the bookies original interview with Dowds associates, paid him again for more testimony.....to me that is shady. MLB basically gave the bookie full authority to spice up his story for more money knowing that Pete truly could not fight any story he told because Pete did in fact use this bookie and Pete knew no one would believe him now......That is shady.

You want to pay me for some dirt I have on Pete then fine, pay me....but paying me enough to assure that I live well from now on is a little much....to me that screams of something fishy.

There is a reason law enforcement only pays their confidential informants a small amount of money and only pay more based on actual convictions....its because a criminal will lie if he thinks the lie will gain him more money. Bart Giamatti authorized the payment to more than one criminal in the investigation of Pete Rose....those statements were never used by the govt or the IRS, why? because the govt and the IRS knew those statements were nothing more than hogwash and they would never hold in a court of law......yet MLB used those same statements to ban a guy for life.

please do not excuse my defense of Pete as a pass to what he done....he needed to be punished, he was guilty of betting on baseball and I have no complaints at all with that.....I am simply implying that the manner in which MLB investigated Pete was shady and more than likely full of errors and lies..

[RedsBaron]

I have researched Kennesaw and yes, for the game he loved, and for what he perceived as the greater good he would, and most certainly did, sweep it under the rug. He often acted with disregard for facts, or for evidence, throwing out players merely suspected of wrongdoing, while turning a blind eye to others - the difference was always the impact on the game in his mind. Cobb became a much better man later in life, when the competitive fires that burned so fiercely in baseball died out. I don't argue against his inclusion in the HoF. Similar to the way baseball turned a blind eye to steroids in the 90s and 00s, baseball had turned a blind eye to gambling since its inception until it became such a scandal that the game was threatened with ruin by the Black Sox scandal. The owners parsimonious ways also had players looking for means to add to their income and gambling was the answer for some. It was WIDESPREAD and did not end with the Series scandal but lingered behind the scenes through the twenties before it was pretty much eliminated by the commissioners strong handling and stiff penalties. Cobb and Speaker threatened retaliatory suits and the evidence was circumstantial, both were huge stars and Landis felt, I believe, that both had paid a penalty already, and that baseball was better served NOT banning them.

Cobb was age 41 when he retired and Speaker was age 40. Both men had previously managed and had career winning percentages as managers north of .500%. Cobb had managed the Tigers to one second place finish, while Speaker had managed the Indians to a pair of second place finishes along with a World Championship in 1920.
Cobb and Speaker were therefore both relatively young superstar, future-Hall-of-Famers (though the HOF did not yet exist), with a history of success as managers, at the time they retired as players after the 1928 season. Despite that, neither man ever again managed in the major leagues.
The rumor is that although neither man was suspended for gambling Landis quietly saw to it that neither man was ever offered a managerial position as a result of the investigation into the allegations.

[NorCal Reds Fan]

Pete Rose is NOT on the ballot. The writers have NO control over that.

Fair point. But I've hear/read enough sanctimony from the "guardians" on high to hazard a guess that it wouldn't matter even if he were.

[dougdirt]

you dont think paying a bookie enough money to assure that he never has to work again is not shady? basically, MLB paid a criminal(s) money to tell his side of the story....then a month after the bookies original interview with Dowds associates, paid him again for more testimony.....to me that is shady. MLB basically gave the bookie full authority to spice up his story for more money knowing that Pete truly could not fight any story he told because Pete did in fact use this bookie and Pete knew no one would believe him now......That is shady.
No, I don't. Is it shady that the prosecutor sets up a plea deal for criminals rather than going to trial for everyone, where in a lot of cases they get the plea deal to give information on others involved?



You want to pay me for some dirt I have on Pete then fine, pay me....but paying me enough to assure that I live well from now on is a little much....to me that screams of something fishy.
Or maybe you said "I am only talking for this amount of money" and well, they had to pay up. I'm sure a bookie would never try and get as much as he possibly could though.



There is a reason law enforcement only pays their confidential informants a small amount of money and only pay more based on actual convictions....its because a criminal will lie if he thinks the lie will gain him more money. Bart Giamatti authorized the payment to more than one criminal in the investigation of Pete Rose....those statements were never used by the govt or the IRS, why? because the govt and the IRS knew those statements were nothing more than hogwash and they would never hold in a court of law......yet MLB used those same statements to ban a guy for life.
Pete bet on the game. Let's not forget that. He has since admitted it. MLB had the proof.

[NorCal Reds Fan]

The difference is though -at least IMO - is that while Rose broke a rule concerning gambling, his "Ruthian-type numbers", unlike Bonds, didn't come from performance-enhancing drugs.

Bonds was a helluva ballplayer. IMO, with his natural talent and ability alone (like his Dad), he would have put up solid career numbers that would have probably guaranteed him a spot in the HOF.

But his ego got in the way when he saw what McGwire and Sosa were doing, and all the attention they were getting, and he used steroids which, IMO, inflated those numbers to a certain degree.

Rose not only broke a rule, but IMO, due to his ego, flaunted it, and deserved to be punished, and punished severely. But to what degree of severity? Isn't almost 25 years enough? Even criminals within our society, who have done far worse then a Pete Rose, are given the opportunity at a second chance.

Pete Rose not only lived for the game of baseball, gave it everything he got, but contributed greatly to the game. And while his gambling shouldn't (and won't be) forgotten - he'll always have that hanging over his head the rest of his life no matter what - those wrong actions shouldn't overshadow, or cause us to ignore, what he contributed to the game.

Some sort of compromise needs to be reached between MLB and Pete Rose. IMO, it has gone on long enough. And I think most of us who are now older, and grew up as a kid with Rose, the player, would agree.

He should be in the HOF for what he accomplished on that field. He should never be allowed to manage again at the major league level; but I think Pete - and I think it's something he'd love to do - should be allowed to work somehow within the ranks of the minors.

Give the guy a chance to redeem himself somehow towards a game that was his passion in life while he's still alive.

That's my take.

Here's the thing on PEDs, and I know I'm in the minority: I don't care. I really don't. Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, et al. were full-grown adults that voluntarily chose to use PEDs even with the risk of detrimental side-effects. While not "everyone" did it, it was during a time when a lot of things were allowed in MLB, and MLB essentially gave it all tacit approval with a wink here and a nod there. The 1994 strike was a signifcant blow to the popularity of the game, and if 'roid-fueled HRs got butts back in the seats and eyes on the TV screen, Selig & Co. were cool with it. And really, "steroids" were an issue going back to the 80s, notably with Jose Canseco...I can still recall the '88 ALCS and Red Sox fans chanting "STERRROIDS, STERRROIDS". And in '96, there was Brady Anderson hitting 50 HRs. MLB didn't care.

I don't need self-righteous "guardians" to look out for my kids. That's my job. If they ever make the decision to take PEDs, that's my fault, not Barry Bonds', nor some writer for giving him a HOF vote.

So the rules have changed now...now MLB "cares". Fine. The rules are known. Get caught, get suspended. I just think it's silly to say I'm going to apply circa 2010-henceforth rules to what you did in the 90's and early 00's.

As for Pete Rose, I pretty much agree with you. To me, the good he did for the game: running to first on a walk, head-first dives/slides, balls-out hustle, far outweigh the betting. And I think he still could offer some "good" to the game if only allowed to do so.

Either way, it's really just not a very big pebble in my shoe. On my List Of Things To Worry About, Pete Rose or Barry Bonds being the in HOF doesn't even get honorable mention. I think they and a few others should be in, but whether they are or not, oh well, I still have to get up to go to work tomorrow.

[New York Red]

Pete Rose is trash. He was my favorite player as a kid. I even wore #14 three or four different years in his honor. Then I grew up, he got kicked out of baseball, and he embarrassed himself further by lying about it for far too many years. I won't even get into the kind of husband and father he's been. His problem has always been that he thinks of himself as bigger than the game. He still comes across that way in his interviews.

He's desperate to get back in baseball because he knows someone will pay him in some capacity. That's all it's ever been about for Pete. He doesn't care about the game. He only cares about getting a paycheck at the expense of the game.

[lidspinner]

Pete Rose is trash. He was my favorite player as a kid. I even wore #14 three or four different years in his honor. Then I grew up, he got kicked out of baseball, and he embarrassed himself further by lying about it for far too many years. I won't even get into the kind of husband and father he's been. His problem has always been that he thinks of himself as bigger than the game. He still comes across that way in his interviews.

He's desperate to get back in baseball because he knows someone will pay him in some capacity. That's all it's ever been about for Pete. He doesn't care about the game. He only cares about getting a paycheck at the expense of the game.


So I take it you don't have to many favorites in today's game? I can't think of one single player that plays for the love of the game.....not one...if they did play for them love of the game they would not ask for such a high salary and ask management to take the millions they could be making and use it to help pay for some more talent......and I am not talking about hometown discounts....if a player plays for the love of the game he would play for enough of a salary so he and his family can be comfortable......back when Pete played, players had part time jobs in the off season because they just didn't make great money unless you were a star.....nowadays the guys riding the bench makes great money. I could go on and on, but it just isn't worth it.....Pete rose was a bum of a father and husband.....Pete gambled on baseball and deserved his punishment, I get it. But Pete put up numbers like no other and probably no other ever will, he hustled every single play regardless of being up 10 runs or down 10 runs.....he never took a play off, he played every songle play like Ryan freel times 100 and he hit like Tony Gwynn times 10, and he was a Red and is a Red for life. He has embarrassed me these past 20 years and I have refused to wear my 14 jersey that my wife got me for Christmas a few years back.....but I am ready to move on....

if Pete would have walked in and killed Mr. Dowd in front of Marge Schott and on life TV then commenced to burn all the evidence, he would be getting out of prison right now and the HOF would be cordially inviting him to attend his induction ceremony the first year he walked free......and that my friends is what is sad, Pete could have been a killer and been in better standing with you all.

[dougdirt]

So I take it you don't have to many favorites in today's game? I can't think of one single player that plays for the love of the game.....not one...if they did play for them love of the game they would not ask for such a high salary and ask management to take the millions they could be making and use it to help pay for some more talent......and I am not talking about hometown discounts....if a player plays for the love of the game he would play for enough of a salary so he and his family can be comfortable......back when Pete played, players had part time jobs in the off season because they just didn't make great money unless you were a star.....nowadays the guys riding the bench makes great money. I could go on and on, but it just isn't worth it.....Pete rose was a bum of a father and husband.....Pete gambled on baseball and deserved his punishment, I get it. But Pete put up numbers like no other and probably no other ever will, he hustled every single play regardless of being up 10 runs or down 10 runs.....he never took a play off, he played every songle play like Ryan freel times 100 and he hit like Tony Gwynn times 10, and he was a Red and is a Red for life. He has embarrassed me these past 20 years and I have refused to wear my 14 jersey that my wife got me for Christmas a few years back.....but I am ready to move on....if Pete would have walked in and killed Mr. Dowd in front of Marge Schott and on life TV then commenced to burn all the evidence, he would be getting out of prison right now and the HOF would be cordially inviting him to attend his induction ceremony the first year he walked free......and that my friends is what is sad, Pete could have been a killer and been in better standing with you all.
Just because you get paid market value doesn't mean you don't love the game.

[CmdrCody]

So I take it you don't have to many favorites in today's game? I can't think of one single player that plays for the love of the game.....not one...if they did play for them love of the game they would not ask for such a high salary and ask management to take the millions they could be making and use it to help pay for some more talent......and I am not talking about hometown discounts....if a player plays for the love of the game he would play for enough of a salary so he and his family can be comfortable......back when Pete played, players had part time jobs in the off season because they just didn't make great money unless you were a star.....nowadays the guys riding the bench makes great money. I could go on and on, but it just isn't worth it.....Pete rose was a bum of a father and husband.....Pete gambled on baseball and deserved his punishment, I get it. But Pete put up numbers like no other and probably no other ever will, he hustled every single play regardless of being up 10 runs or down 10 runs.....he never took a play off, he played every songle play like Ryan freel times 100 and he hit like Tony Gwynn times 10, and he was a Red and is a Red for life. He has embarrassed me these past 20 years and I have refused to wear my 14 jersey that my wife got me for Christmas a few years back.....but I am ready to move on....

if Pete would have walked in and killed Mr. Dowd in front of Marge Schott and on life TV then commenced to burn all the evidence, he would be getting out of prison right now and the HOF would be cordially inviting him to attend his induction ceremony the first year he walked free......and that my friends is what is sad, Pete could have been a killer and been in better standing with you all.

Can I have what you're having?

Really? Pete could have committed murder and got elected to the HOF? I for one don't think so.

Maybe you are just trying to be soooooo sarcastic, but you lose touch with reality here.

I do agree Pete is no worse than the present players, who today apologized because they got CAUGHT!

[New York Red]

So I take it you don't have to many favorites in today's game? I can't think of one single player that plays for the love of the game.....not one...if they did play for them love of the game they would not ask for such a high salary and ask management to take the millions they could be making and use it to help pay for some more talent......and I am not talking about hometown discounts....if a player plays for the love of the game he would play for enough of a salary so he and his family can be comfortable......back when Pete played, players had part time jobs in the off season because they just didn't make great money unless you were a star.....nowadays the guys riding the bench makes great money. I could go on and on, but it just isn't worth it.....Pete rose was a bum of a father and husband.....Pete gambled on baseball and deserved his punishment, I get it. But Pete put up numbers like no other and probably no other ever will, he hustled every single play regardless of being up 10 runs or down 10 runs.....he never took a play off, he played every songle play like Ryan freel times 100 and he hit like Tony Gwynn times 10, and he was a Red and is a Red for life. He has embarrassed me these past 20 years and I have refused to wear my 14 jersey that my wife got me for Christmas a few years back.....but I am ready to move on....

if Pete would have walked in and killed Mr. Dowd in front of Marge Schott and on life TV then commenced to burn all the evidence, he would be getting out of prison right now and the HOF would be cordially inviting him to attend his induction ceremony the first year he walked free......and that my friends is what is sad, Pete could have been a killer and been in better standing with you all.
I would give a better reply, but I see a lot of this > ...... and a lot of that > ...... and not many sentences or paragraphs. I'm not sure what your point is, other than the final "sentence". Regarding that, there have been several players over the past couple decades whom I have the same opinion I have of Pete. None are/were killers (that I'm aware of).

[bob jones]

I have a great poster of his first game when he is taking the field on opening day he is running out to his position flanked by gordie coleman and f robinson and gene freese is also in the photo

[lidspinner]

Can I have what you're having?

Really? Pete could have committed murder and got elected to the HOF? I for one don't think so.

Maybe you are just trying to be soooooo sarcastic, but you lose touch with reality here.

I do agree Pete is no worse than the present players, who today apologized because they got CAUGHT!


Yes....he would've committed murder and paid a high priced attorney and got off on a technicality and probably only spent 10 years in prison....got out and walked to the HOF amd give his speech and all would be better than it is now as far as his standing with baseball. Yes I am serious.

[lidspinner]

I would give a better reply, but I see a lot of this > ...... and a lot of that > ...... and not many sentences or paragraphs. I'm not sure what your point is, other than the final "sentence". Regarding that, there have been several players over the past couple decades whom I have the same opinion I have of Pete. None are/were killers (that I'm aware of).

Huh.........what..........who......<>.......hello....my point with him being a killer is I am of the belief if he killed someone and spent his time in prison and got out that everyone would be saying that Pete has done his time and its time to give him his second chance......basically, in English, I believe Pete would be in better standing with baseball people had he killed someone and spent 25 years in prison and just got out.....I think people would be ready to forgive him and move on...probably even the HOF. 20 years is enough to hate Pete and punish him. His barbaric like numbers were not cheated, his hustle was not faked, his passion was not a show, his love for the game was never in lingo......time to move on, Pete has spent enough time away from the game.

[George Anderson]

Huh.........what..........who......<>.......hello....my point with him being a killer is I am of the belief if he killed someone and spent his time in prison and got out that everyone would be saying that Pete has done his time and its time to give him his second chance......basically, in English, I believe Pete would be in better standing with baseball people had he killed someone and spent 25 years in prison and just got out.....I think people would be ready to forgive him and move on...probably even the HOF. 20 years is enough to hate Pete and punish him. His barbaric like numbers were not cheated, his hustle was not faked, his passion was not a show, his love for the game was never in lingo......time to move on, Pete has spent enough time away from the game.

You mean the same guy who still goes to the race track frequently and sits in a casino and signs autographs daily after MLB told him back in 89' he needed to reconfigure his life if he ever wanted to get back in the game? He has had many chances and he has yet to change his ways.

Lets go ahead play the game of had Pete murdered instead of gambled as his crime. The thing is after 25 years Pete would still be commiting murders like he is still gambling and if you wanted the details of the murders he would be happy to give them to you after you paid him $29.95 for his new tell all book.

Army Brat had it 100% right. Rose's main motivation to get back in to baseball is based on nothing more than making a buck. The HOF means little to him. Pete has always been about doing whatever needed to be done no matter how unethical to load his pockets with as many Benjamins as possible. Pardon me if I fell zero sympathy for him.

[CmdrCody]

Yes....he would've committed murder and paid a high priced attorney and got off on a technicality and probably only spent 10 years in prison....got out and walked to the HOF amd give his speech and all would be better than it is now as far as his standing with baseball. Yes I am serious.

No, I don't see that happening in the real world.

[CmdrCody]

You mean the same guy who still goes to the race track frequently and sits in a casino and signs autographs daily after MLB told him back in 89' he needed to reconfigure his life if he ever wanted to get back in the game? He has had many chances and he has yet to change his ways.

Lets go ahead play the game of had Pete murdered instead of gambled as his crime. The thing is after 25 years Pete would still be commiting murders like he is still gambling and if you wanted the details of the murders he would be happy to give them to you after you paid him $29.95 for his new tell all book.

Army Brat had it 100% right. Rose's main motivation to get back in to baseball is based on nothing more than making a buck. The HOF means little to him. Pete has always been about doing whatever needed to be done no matter how unethical to load his pockets with as many Benjamins as possible. Pardon me if I fell zero sympathy for him.

Exactly

[lidspinner]

tough crowd.....I guess we will agree to disagree....I see nothing wrong with Pete going to race tracks and casinos and signing autographs for money, as long as he is not gambling on Baseball then he can do what he wants to make a buck for he and his family.....I dont think that is what MLB meant when it told him to reconfigure his life.....maybe it was, but Pete is not breaking the law but doing the things he is doing now, matter of fact if he were a player plying in todays game he would not be breaking his contract by doing any of those things either.....

I respect y'alls opinion but I dont agree with it.....Maybe I would not feel the same way if he played for the Cardinals, but even if he did I can promise you one thing, I would agree that it is time to move on and give Pete his props.

one last item.....I look at his stats, his hustle, his passion to go 100 miles per hour regardless of what the score or what type of game it was, just his overall on field baseball persona.....Then I try to find someone who also has those same qualities in the game today or recent past and I cannot find any....and when I do find someone who has done something similar such as Barry Bonds or any other guy who put fear in opposing teams I always see that asterisk that says they got those stats from cheating, or at least some of those stats....Pete Rose will never be remembered for the dominant hitter he was because everyone will associate him with his gambling just as they associate Barry with steroids......Just as Roger Clemens will be compared to steroids, just as A-Rod......and Pete did it clean, Pete did while never giving less than 100%, Pete played the game like each and every person here would LOVE to have their son play the game. Tony Gwynn is the only person I can find that is even in the same ball park as Pete but even Tony did not hustle at all times and even Tony would not play any and every spot on the diamond(although Tony did play multiple spots at times)....

I just would love for people and MLB mainly to recognize Pete for his accomplishments on the field and for how he played the game....I dont want them to let him manage the Reds or even be an assistant coach(although he would be a great hitting coach), but I think MLB could use Pete as a tool to show the younger generation how to play the game and how to go about preparing for the game and also how easy it is to lose everything you have worked for in a matter of minutes. That is all I am asking for yet people still want to hang Pete from a pole in times square for something that happened 20+ years ago. THe simple fact that Mark McGwire is coaching in MLB is so laughable to me....yes, lets allow this guy to influence young impressionable players....I am sure Mark is regretting every last needle he took, but it appears MLB has forgiven him in less than 10 years. How is that right?

[GAC]

They don't all get a second chance. Some are punished for life. Just like Pete.

I never said all get a second chance. While true, I get tired of hearing this reasoning of "If they didn't want to go to jail, or be punished, then they shouldn't have broken the law/rule". We're a society that believes in rehabilitation, redeeming people, even for some serious crimes, giving them second chances, and the opportunity to contribute positively to society once again.

I grew up in the 60s admiring/idolizing this guy. IMO, one of the greatest ballplayers to ever play the game. Yes, what he did was wrong and deserved punishment. But the punishment has been enough IMO (almost 25 years). And he'll always carry that stigma, within the public's eye, that will never go away, of what he did.

But he belongs in the HOF. And while he should never be able to manage again at the major league level, he should be allowed to work in some capacity within baseball to redeem himself and contribute.

Human life is worth that effort.

[CmdrCody]

I never said all get a second chance. While true, I get tired of hearing this reasoning of "If they didn't want to go to jail, or be punished, then they shouldn't have broken the law/rule". We're a society that believes in rehabilitation, redeeming people, even for some serious crimes, giving them second chances, and the opportunity to contribute positively to society once again.

I grew up in the 60s admiring/idolizing this guy. IMO, one of the greatest ballplayers to ever play the game. Yes, what he did was wrong and deserved punishment. But the punishment has been enough IMO (almost 25 years). And he'll always carry that stigma, within the public's eye, that will never go away, of what he did.

But he belongs in the HOF. And while he should never be able to manage again at the major league level, he should be allowed to work in some capacity within baseball to redeem himself and contribute.

Human life is worth that effort.

The thing about rehabilitation is that the person needs to change. In AA you have to acknowledge your problem, the same with drug rehab. Anyone who wants to beat those addictions can't have a drink or do any drugs. Pete's addiction is gambling. From what ive read Pete still gambles, and pretends its not so.