PBS Frontline: "League of Denial"

[Caveat Emperor]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/league-of-denial/

Did anyone else watch this last night?

My one major takeaway (although, I kind of knew it already) was that the NFL was shameful in how it ignored the struggles of former players suffering with brain injuries. You would think a league as rich as the NFL would just quietly offer suffering former players money just to shut them up.

[RedFanAlways1966]

I watched it and enjoyed the show. Made me think about a few things.

* I take all reports from the media with a grain of salt.
* The NFL cares more about money than players who are no longer useful to their money-making ways.
* We all know that football is dangerous. Just like a hang-gliding or skydiving person knows their are risks with certain things they choose to do in their life.
* How are sports like football, boxing, auto racing, boat racing, etc legal?

I do not have any answers. And as usual a Frontline program made me think.

[Chip R]

I watched it too. No offense to any lawyers here but decisions like that happen when lawyers are involved. The NFL - much like the tobacco companies - couldn't admit their product was unsafe and had long-term detrimental effects on their health. Writing a check for hush money would be admitting that.

I hate to sound callous but players share a certain amount of blame here. It's very understandable that if they get hurt, they want to get back in the game and damn the long-term effects. Even in this more enlightened age, if a player suffers an injury - such as a concussion - and even if you could prove to them that years from now they are going to have severe problems; most of them are going to want to go back into the game and you really can't fault them for that.

I think Chris Nowinski has a very, very difficult job and I would not want it.

I think they made a very good point about sub-concussive hits. It's scary to think that you may have CTE without ever suffering a concussion.

I noticed they never even talked about the players' union and what they are and aren't doing about this problem.

I thought that was a total dick move by Goodell to not allow the wife of that player into that meeting.

That Pop Warner team had a better introduction than a lot of HS and college teams.

Unfortunately there are no easy solutions to this issue.

[Caveat Emperor]

Seeing Chris Nowinski involved in this was kinda surprising -- I actually remember watching him wrestle in the WWF back in the proverbial day.

I get Chip's point about lawyers, but you can craft settlements (quietly) with players & families that absolve the NFL of liability while taking care of these people. Settlements like that happen every day in the business world.

On the science front, I had a difficult time with the high school kid showing signs of CTE in this regard -- the evidence was presented by the researchers (I assume) to underline the danger of football at any time and at any level. However, if that's case, there should be hundreds of thousands of ex-HS football players (even ones who never took the next step to play in college) suffering from dementia. That doesn't seem to be the case.

I think the takeaway is that playing football at the NFL level (and the daily pounding it took to get and stay there) is dangerous, but I think we're still missing the "Unsafe at Any Speed" evidence that football, as a sport, is harmful.

[IslandRed]

I can't back this up with anything but perception, but to me, the biggest leap of f=m*a in the last decade has come at the high-school level, and in the future we're going to see more guys who didn't play past preps who have these symptoms.

I do agree with CE -- serious CTE resulting in dementia is going to be rare for a kid who never played college or pro ball. But it doesn't have to be that bad to impact a person's quality of life down the road, especially if they get the second-concussion syndrome where the brain hasn't finished healing from the first one. What's the price tag on being a little bit less mentally sharp for the rest of our lives than we otherwise would have been? Impossible to say, right?

[Chip R]

This subject has intrigued me ever since I was in high school back in the early 80s. I even did a term paper on Violence in Football when I was a senior. I took 90% of my information from John Underwood's Brutality in Football series he wrote for SI in August of 78. Underwood mainly wrote about the problems hitting with the helmet first caused. Underwood didn't mention concussions in his series but this was 35 years ago. Most of the source material I used was from the first part of the series.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1093971/index.htm

[Tom Servo]

Seeing Chris Nowinski involved in this was kinda surprising -- I actually remember watching him wrestle in the WWF back in the proverbial day.

He really had a lot of potential but could never recover from those concussions (and Edge and Rey Mysterio crushing his face at the 2003 Royal Rumble). Luckily he had that Harvard degree to fall back on.

[cumberlandreds]

I DVR'd this last night and look forward to watching it. I can remember in high school I had typing class with one of the football players. I can remember him coming in to class after getting kocked out in the game the friday before. He talked about how zoned out he was after that hit and couldn't remember much of what else happened in the game. He said his head was still hurting some that day. I'm sure he had a concussion and was never diagnosed with it. I don't remember now but I would say he played later that week in the next game.
I think the more we learn about the effects of head injuries in football the more parents will keep their boys from playing it in high school or playing it ever at all. I really could see a day, quite a ways in the future, where there just aren't enough boys playing to keep football going. I doubt I will ever live to see it but certainly could forsee this happening.

[M2]

I've lost count of how many conversations I've had with fathers who, like me, played football when we were young and have said, "No way I'd let my son play." That's probably why our local HS football team rarely wins a game. In fact, almost no one goes to the games and few people even follow the team. All this despite our resident NFL owner, Bob Kraft, going out of his way to support the local Pop Warner program, building a state-of-the-art practice field for the team and donating heavily to the HS football program.

[traderumor]

I've gone back and forth on this. I love football, have played very little of it, and have never had any more than the wind knocked out of me from a hit. I recently was involved in a discussion on this board about not letting my sons play, but I'm still not sure if that isn't just being reactionary.

An analogy to me at this point is that the reactions to the concussion issue is in the stage where the little darlings were wearing heart guards and face masks in youth baseball/softball for those who were still allowed to play, and a lot of folks said "not my kid" and started the soccer craze. Then they found out that headers were a problem for soccer players, youth baseball is picking up a little steam, and all the protective gear is now in yard sales or waiting for a bargain purchase at Goodwill. There are also a lot of folks realizing how freaking boring soccer is ;)

[M2]

I wish I had played soccer (run around and do something) rather than football (stand around and wait for the old screamy guy on the sideline to give you instructions). Never been more bored than when I was playing organized football.

FWIW, you might be right about football upsetting the delicate sensibilities of helicopter parents, but football's a tough sell. You're not going to play it when you get older. At younger ages, almost every other sport will keep you in better shape. If you plan on going to college in any way other than on a football scholarship why play a sport where hurtling yourself headfirst at an armored adversary is required?

[Roy Tucker]

I read somewhere recently where it said football is the next boxing. Malcolm Gladwell said it will get "ghetto-ized". link (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/dennis-dodd/23380419/author-malcolm-gladwell-says-football-will-become-ghettoized)

The sport will get to where only those willing to take on the moderate to severe risk of injury will play the sport.

I know our local high school (top 3 in the state in # of students) regularly wins or places high in state tournaments in sports like soccer, golf, tennis, track, cross-country, and swimming, has a world-class music program, and top-notch in about everything but has a hard time fielding a decent football team. When you have a bright future getting prepped at one of the best high schools in the state and potentially going to Northwestern or Carnegie-Mellon or Ohio State, why risk an injury that could affect your cognitive abilities long-term?

[Chip R]

If you plan on going to college in any way other than on a football scholarship why play a sport where hurtling yourself headfirst at an armored adversary is required?

But that's where football is going to keep getting their players from. The kids who don't have any other shot but football. These kids are going to be on the lower end of the socio-economic scale much like boxers. With club teams, baseball is becoming more of a sport for the middlle class or well-to-do families. That's a huge commitment for kids. They have to give up their extra time to traveling on the road for those games. They have to invest in bats, gloves, unis, shoes, not to mention travel expenses. Thank goodness for the Dominican Republic. Basketball is almost the same way with AAU teams. I know my niece is into soccer and when she's not in school, she's playing with a club team. The equipment cost is negligible but travel time and cost is significant.

There is no AAU or club football teams. It's all HS and college. In the off-season you lift and condition. Maybe you watch films if you are a QB but otherwise your time is your own. There are insurance costs but that's there for every sport. It's absolutely more dangerous than the other sports - even factoring out concussions - but it's sexy and there's more glory attached to the sport than the others. Sure parents are going to freak over the injury factor but that's been there since Day 1. Poorer families may take the gamble their kid stays healthy and gets that multi-million contract from the NFL. African-American kids are now playing QB - the glamor position - after decades of being shut out there. A rifle-armed kid who can run no longer has to settle for baseball or get converted to running back or wide receiver or defense. There's always going to be someone who will take the risks for short term glory. Now if insurance companies no longer feel they can take the risks for youth and HS programs, then you may see football wither on the vine.

[M2]

But that's where football is going to keep getting their players from. The kids who don't have any other shot but football. These kids are going to be on the lower end of the socio-economic scale much like boxers.

That goes exactly to what Roy said too, and I couldn't agree more. Interestingly enough, the bulk of the kids who play football at our local HS are the kids from some of the poorer sections in Boston who get bused here as part of a special program.

The HS has 1,800 students and it wouldn't be able to field a football team if it weren't for imported-from-out-of-district students. It's basically a lot like the school where Roy is, every kid is headed to college. Lacrosse, swimming, crew - they're growing like crazy. There's talk of adding skate boarding and free running teams. Meanwhile I can't remember the last time I saw a pickup football game.

And I think you may be onto something about insurance.

[RiverRat13]

That goes exactly to what Roy said too, and I couldn't agree more. Interestingly enough, the bulk of the kids who play football at our local HS are the kids from some of the poorer sections in Boston who get bused here as part of a special program.

The HS has 1,800 students and it wouldn't be able to field a football team if it weren't for imported-from-out-of-district students. It's basically a lot like the school where Roy is, every kid is headed to college. Lacrosse, swimming, crew - they're growing like crazy. There's talk of adding skate boarding and free running teams. Meanwhile I can't remember the last time I saw a pickup football game.

And I think you may be onto something about insurance.

But Boston/Mass has never really been a hotbed of high school football anyway, has it? In rural Ohio high school football is still a big deal. Not as big as 10 years ago but my observation is that is due to the increased time commitment in the offseason, not safety concerns. The good athletes still play it, the guys who just came out to wear the jersey no longer do because the time investment is so great now.

As far as the upper middle class suburban white kid, I have my doubts that they've given up on football in high school due to safety concerns. I simply think they've moved on to other sports that they have a better chance at being elite. The odds are tough for them in football (unless they are big) and basketball.

What might save football is that the money is just so huge that people will pour resources into equipment research in hopes of developing a helmet that cuts down on concussions.

[Chip R]

What might save football is that the money is just so huge that people will pour resources into equipment research in hopes of developing a helmet that cuts down on concussions.

That would be great but I'm afraid they would be so expensive that most schools couldn't afford them. Helmets aren't cheap now so I can't conceive of a helmet that would do that and be affordable.

[traderumor]

I think its premature to be predicting the demise of football. Boxing was NEVER as popular nor has so much money at stake. Plus, it already had a bad rap, associated with thuggery, gambling, and some really hard to like characters.

Football has cheerleaders, marching bands, booster clubs, football Friday night glory, college scholarships in big money programs. There is still plenty of "for the love of the game" tied up in football, so the analogy I see with boxing is "name two dangerous sports."

[M2]

But Boston/Mass has never really been a hotbed of high school football anyway, has it? In rural Ohio high school football is still a big deal. Not as big as 10 years ago but my observation is that is due to the increased time commitment in the offseason, not safety concerns. The good athletes still play it, the guys who just came out to wear the jersey no longer do because the time investment is so great now.

As far as the upper middle class suburban white kid, I have my doubts that they've given up on football in high school due to safety concerns. I simply think they've moved on to other sports that they have a better chance at being elite. The odds are tough for them in football (unless they are big) and basketball.

Ohio, Pennsylvania and Texas exist in a different stratosphere when it comes to football. Boston/Mass is a lot like the rest of the country in terms of football. The sport got a huge shot in the arm in this region from Doug Flutie, but that's worn off pretty much everywhere outside of Boston College and his hometown. The Patriots have become a popular thing to watch, but they haven't made football more popular to play. Interestingly, the other major schools in Boston outside of BC and Harvard have dropped football.

I think the safety concerns indirectly affect HS football. If you're a parent concerned about the general safety of football then you likely won't enroll your kid in a program at the youth levels. Instead that kid may play a half dozen other sports. And if he doesn't play a ton of football in the neighborhood, then HS football is pretty much off the table.

Also, upper middle class kids have a different perspective on sports. They're going to succeed in life with or without sports. They have a wider variety of sports they can play (lack of economic barriers and access to more programs) and they gravitate toward which sport they like best rather than which sport they feel they have to play in order to make it big.

Just as a for instance, my daughter plays fairly high level soccer. That program has lost players to gymnastics, skiing, lacrosse, swimming, horse riding, basketball and hockey. There's a lot of competition out there.

[Rojo]

Funny full circle on football which used to be an upper class sport because rich kids didn't have to count on uninjured bodies to make money.

[Rojo]

What might save football is that the money is just so huge that people will pour resources into equipment research in hopes of developing a helmet that cuts down on concussions.

This strikes me as a Red Queen exercise.

I'd like to see how American Football compares to rugby in the injury department. My guess is that the forward pass is the root cause. Scrums can be tough but not in the same way as flying hits.

[OldRightHander]

http://www.sportingnews.com/sport/story/2013-11-12/arizona-high-school-football-player-dies-days-after-traumatic-brain-injury?eadid=SOC/Twi/SNMain

[Dom Heffner]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/league-of-denial/

Did anyone else watch this last night?

My one major takeaway (although, I kind of knew it already) was that the NFL was shameful in how it ignored the struggles of former players suffering with brain injuries. You would think a league as rich as the NFL would just quietly offer suffering former players money just to shut them up.

You know, buddy, I think the NFL has a murky future...

They have a violent sport that MRI's and scans are revealing some things they'd rather not see and they have some decisions to make.

[traderumor]

You know, buddy, I think the NFL has a murky future...

They have a violent sport that MRI's and scans are revealing some things they'd rather not see and they have some decisions to make.I wonder why the NHL doesn't come up in these conversations? Or all levels of hockey? If you're teeth are getting knocked out, I imagine your cage is getting rattled in the process.

[klw]

http://deadspin.com/family-of-player-killed-in-practice-sues-ncaa-coaches-1188048031/1463651387/@barryap

Why Did Derek Sheely Die?


It claims that Frostburg was running two-a-day practices, including a variation on the "Oklahoma drill," where two players line up three yards apart and crash into each other at full-speed. During each drill, Sheely would repeat this 30-40 times.

On the first day, the suit alleges, running backs coach Jamie Schumacher commanded players to lead with their helmet—"hat first." If they did not comply, it claims, he would publicly berate them and call them a "*****."

On the second day, Sheely's forehead was busted open, and began "bleeding profusely." The suit claims he was examined by a trainer, bandaged up, and sent back in without being administered a concussion test. On the third day, the same process happened twice more, again without a concussion exam, even though the suit claims he had suffered one the previous season.

On the fourth day of full-contact drills, the lawsuit alleges, Sheely again began bleeding, and again was bandaged and sent back in.

During the offensive and defensive "inside-run drill," in which all coaches were around and full-speed contact was required, Derek was involved in a significant amount of contact. Shortly after one play, Derek walked back to the huddle and explicitly informed Defendant Schumacher that he "didn't feel right" and that he had a "headache."

With Defendant Rogish, and on information and belief other members of the coaching staff, standing right next to Defendant Schumacher and thus clearly hearing Derek's disclosure, Defendant Schumacher yelled, "Stop your *****ing and moaning and quit acting like a ***** and get back out there Sheely!"
After a few more minutes of drills, Sheely walked to the sidelines, collapsed, and never regained consciousness. The suit claims he died from second-impact syndrome, a controversial condition where the brain swells after receiving a concussion before symptoms from a previous concussion subside.

Schumacher still coaches at Frostburg State.
http://www.frostburgsports.com/staff.aspx?staff=186
He is a "Ball Security Expert"
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/jamie-schumacher/45/916/aaa

[Chip R]

I wonder why the NHL doesn't come up in these conversations? Or all levels of hockey? If you're teeth are getting knocked out, I imagine your cage is getting rattled in the process.

I'm sure it has been mentioned in the past - especially when you hear about these guys (mainly the enforcers) doing the same things as the NFLers. But the NHL isn't even in the same league in popularity in this country that the NFL is. It's the same reason we don't hear more about the same problem in soccer, lacrosse and rugby. Perhaps concussions in the NHL and their aftereffects are more of a topic in Canada than in the U.S.

[Caveat Emperor]

Hockey players take a lot of hits, but you don't see nearly the same level of violent impacts to the head that you do in football. Hockey is lots of body blows.

Hockey players also rarely get pancaked to the ground the way NFLers do in games and in practice.

[klw]

In US High schools, the 2nd highest number of concussions is in girl's soccer.
http://www.sfgate.com/health/article/Girls-getting-more-concussions-than-before-4879926.php


Girls' soccer is second only to boys' football in the number of concussions during a game, several studies show, and other research indicates that girls report different concussion symptoms than boys, increasing the possibility that girls' injuries could be overlooked.

Football is still, by far, the biggest concussion culprit. It's responsible for 47 percent of all high school sports concussions, according to a 2012 study in the American Journal of Sports Medicine. But girls' soccer is next, with more than 8 percent of all concussions.
And in team sports that both boys and girls play, such as basketball, soccer and baseball/softball, girls were almost twice as likely as boys to have concussions. Doctors are calling for more research to find out why.

A separate 2011 study in the Journal of Athletic Training revealed that headaches are the most commonly reported concussion symptom for both girls and boys, but other symptoms differ by gender. Boys with concussions are more likely to report amnesia and confusion or disorientation, while girls are more likely to say they're drowsy or sensitive to noise.
http://www.concussiontreatment.com/concussionfacts.html

CDC estimates reveal that 1.6 million to 3.8 million concussions occur each year
5-10% of athletes will experience a concussion in any given sport season
Fewer than 10% of sport related concussions involve a Loss of Consciousness (e.g., blacking out, seeing stars, etc.)
Football is the most common sport with concussion risk for males (75% chance for concussion)
Soccer is the most common sport with concussion risk for females (50% chance for concussion)
78% of concussions occur during games (as opposed to practices)
Some studies suggest that females are twice as likely to sustain a concussion as males
Headache (85%) and Dizziness (70-80%) are most commonly reported symptoms immediately following concussions for injured athletes
Estimated 47% of athletes do not report feeling any symptoms after a concussive blow
A professional football player will receive an estimated 900 to 1500 blows to the head during a season
Impact speed of a professional boxers punch: 20mph
Impact speed of a football player tackling a stationary player: 25mph
Impact speed of a soccer ball being headed by a player: 70mph

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10362&page=3

Compared to other contact sports, head injuries are common in soccer. In neuropsychologist Dr. Jill Brooks’ study of high school soccer players, she found that more than one quarter of them had experienced one or more concussions. Neuropsychologist Dr. Ruben Echemendia reported that in his study of college athletes, over 40 percent of the soccer players had at least one concussion prior to attending college. By comparison, only 30 percent of the incoming football players in the same study reported having had a concussion.
...
Dr. Brooks found that many high school soccer players neglected to report experiencing a concussion, because they didn’t think it was serious or wanted to continue playing in a game. “Most concussions go unreported,” she said.

[M2]

I wonder why the NHL doesn't come up in these conversations? Or all levels of hockey? If you're teeth are getting knocked out, I imagine your cage is getting rattled in the process.

It's a concern. Youth, college and pro hockey authorities are establishing zero tolerance policies on hits above the neck. The upside for hockey is you can play it without blows to the head. In football heads crash on every play.


http://deadspin.com/family-of-player-killed-in-practice-sues-ncaa-coaches-1188048031/1463651387/@barryap

Why Did Derek Sheely Die?

I remember doing drills like that. You really can't play tackle football if you don't lead with your head. You've got to commit 100% if you want to knock the other guy backward.


In US High schools, the 2nd highest number of concussions is in girl's soccer.

And that's why when I'm coaching girls' soccer I instruct my players not to use their heads. We should be teaching them to make plays without their skulls.

[westofyou]

Hockey is concerned about as the game is faster and the players charge the net more than in the past. We are seeing more end board collisions than ever, couple that with the fighting issues concerning concussions and you do see a lot of talk at the pro level. E

Especially in areas that they play hockey, like Canada and Michigan.

Fortunately the lower levels of the game go to greater lengths to protect players than the pros, via rules and equipment, something football doesn't really approach.

[Caveat Emperor]

And that's why when I'm coaching girls' soccer I instruct my players not to use their heads. We should be teaching them to make plays without their skulls.

Completely anecdotal, but my wife's friend is an athletic trainer at a high school and she says that the majority of concussions she sees in soccer are from mid-air collisions going for a header or from impact to the head going to the ground.

I'm curious as to whether or not they'll eventually start requiring headgear for soccer at amateur levels -- maybe not to the level of what Petr Chech wears, but perhaps something that offers some padding to the head for collisions.

[M2]

I'm curious as to whether or not they'll eventually start requiring headgear for soccer at amateur levels -- maybe not to the level of what Petr Chech wears, but perhaps something that offers some padding to the head for collisions.

I hope they don't do that because it will encourage players to use their heads more. Your brain is going to bounce off the inside of your skull just as hard during a head-to-head clash with head gear as without it.

[wolfboy]

Hockey players take a lot of hits, but you don't see nearly the same level of violent impacts to the head that you do in football. Hockey is lots of body blows.

Hockey players also rarely get pancaked to the ground the way NFLers do in games and in practice.

The most interesting portion of the League of Denial program was the theory that it may not take violent impacts for CTE to occur. If true, other sports may have trouble down the road as well.