Unofficial Hot Stove News and Rumor Discussion Thread

[LoganBuck]

If Choo won't sign for less than 6 years or $100M, I don't want to sign him. ESPECIALLY when it means unloading Phillips and Bailey.

How does that make us a better team? Will Profar outperform Phillips (both offensively and defensively) next year? Unlikely.

Will the upgrade from Frazier to Lawrie offset the loss of Homer Bailey in the rotation? Very doubtful.

Choo is still Choo, only one year further from 30. So how do those moves make this a better team in 2014 than it was in 2013?

Sure, maybe Profar and Lawrie improve enough in the out years to make these moves worth it, but by then Choo will just be a really, really expensive 35 year old OF who can't hit lefties. Don't see that helping much.

I'm fine with trading basically anyone on the roster except for maybe Latos and Bruce, but I don't think you can move Bailey and/or Phillips unless you are getting big improvements at other positions. These moves get us younger and cheaper, only to blow all of that on keeping a guy on the wrong side of 30. No thanks.

That said, I am in favor of trading Bailey for Profar straight up if you can do it. But trading Phillips for Lawrie just so you can sign Choo to a monster deal seems like rearranging deck chairs.

Agree, but I think we have reached the point a year early, where the team has to make the decisions on how to move forward. The Cardinals and the Pirates are the reason. The Pirates get another potential frontline starter from their minors this coming season, the Cardinals have both young pitching and hitting ready to blossom. Both of those teams have moved quickly, and have passed the Reds. We knew that the window for this group was open through about 2014, to maybe 2015. That has changed. If this team doesn't do a Bob Howsam Joe Morgan type of deal, they will be consigned to the fate of the Astros of the past decade. The will be running out the string acquiring stop gaps that don't fill the gaps, while the expensive stars age and deteriorate.

[LoganBuck]

One thing that strikes me about the entire rumor thread, is that there has not been one mention of the Reds, acquiring a nearly ready pitcher with options, in any of the trade rumors. After Cingrani, who is likely one of the starting 5, the Reds are going to be leaning on Corcino to be the 6th guy. Yikes! Who is the seventh? Sharky?

[757690]

One thing that strikes me about the entire rumor thread, is that there has not been one mention of the Reds, acquiring a nearly ready pitcher with options, in any of the trade rumors. After Cingrani, who is likely one of the starting 5, the Reds are going to be leaning on Corcino to be the 6th guy. Yikes! Who is the seventh? Sharky?

By mid season, it likely will be Stephenson. But the Reds will likely sign a few guys like Gallarraga and Reynolds in Feb.

[PepperJack]

I think Reynolds could be back, and there are trade options, like the one that brought over Todd Redmond.

Also, as was pointed out, Stephenson is coming quick. If he has his control in AA like it was in Dayton and Bakersfield he could be ready by May or June.

[WrongVerb]

One thing that strikes me about the entire rumor thread, is that there has not been one mention of the Reds, acquiring a nearly ready pitcher with options, in any of the trade rumors. After Cingrani, who is likely one of the starting 5, the Reds are going to be leaning on Corcino to be the 6th guy. Yikes! Who is the seventh? Sharky?

With the way Sharky is performing in the AFL, having him as an emergency option at AAA this year isn't a bad thing. Of course Stephenson, as others mentioned, is coming fast. Having him break into the rotation in July would not be a terrible circumstance to have happen.

[WrongVerb]

I'd love to see ANY deal with the Rangers bring back Gentry. The guy doesn't seem to be in their OF picture, and gets on base at a high clip. He'd make a good platoon/backup for Hamilton, or could play LF with BHam in CF.

Bailey for Kinsler and Gentry
Phillips to the Yankees (if they don't re-sign Cano) for Ivan Nova?

[REDREAD]

. We knew that the window for this group was open through about 2014, to maybe 2015. That has changed. If this team doesn't do a Bob Howsam Joe Morgan type of deal, they will be consigned to the fate of the Astros of the past decade. The will be running out the string acquiring stop gaps that don't fill the gaps, while the expensive stars age and deteriorate.

I think it's important not to panic though.
The second wildcard has relieved some of the pressure.

Let's say we do a radical makeover and trade Phillips,Homer, and Chapman for some younger talent. That could also torpedo 2014. I'm more worried about a team like the Nats, Giants, or Diamondbacks getting better than I am worried about catching the Pirates or Cards. You're right, we are behind them in talent, but the playoffs are still attainable.

2015 is a lot more sketchy. I want to go all in for 2014.

Another point.. Most people here are somewhat nervous about Billy H being ready offensively for 2014. That's reasonable. But few here seem to question hypothetically replacing Phillips with Profar.. Profar only OPSed 644 last year.
Granted Profar has a huge ceiling, but potentially he's a huge hole in the lineup for 2014, especially if he comes in to replace Phillipls.

I guess to get to the point.. I'd hate to sabotage 2014 for the future. Why end the window a year early by making the wrong trades of Bailey and Phillips.. If they do trade those guys, I hope it's a smart trade.
At some point, the roster will need to be retooled, but no point in accelerating that timeline. I'd rather go for status quo than start the rebuilding process too early.

[klw]

One thing that strikes me about the entire rumor thread, is that there has not been one mention of the Reds, acquiring a nearly ready pitcher with options, in any of the trade rumors. After Cingrani, who is likely one of the starting 5, the Reds are going to be leaning on Corcino to be the 6th guy. Yikes! Who is the seventh? Sharky?

I think the most likely way this need is filled is with veterans on AAA contracts. Acquiring bats is the priority at this point and SP is a position of strength. If arms are acquired to be SP they would likely have timetables for when Cueto/Leake/Latos may need replacing. Until then it would be AAA filler arms, injury rehab guys (Santana/Holliday) or guys on a 1 yr deal (Dan Haren).

[RedTeamGo!]

Stephenson for 6th man

[REDREAD]

From the non-discussion thread:


The Rangers and Dodgers discussed trades during the GM Meetings, looking to fill the other team's respective needs in the outfield and infield, FOX Sports' Ken Rosenthal reports (Twitter links). The Dodgers had interest in shortstop Elvis Andrus while the Rangers had interest in Matt Kemp, though they were concerned about the $128MM owed to Kemp through 2019 and his recent injury problems. Talks between the two sides didn't go anywhere, Rosenthal said.

Are the Dodgers getting Andrus as a utility infielder? :lol:
Doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, considering Hanley does not want to go to 3rd.
Maybe Andrus is going to play 2b or 3b, despite the fact they signed the Cuban FA?

[Benihana]

Slobber-knocker blockbuster time.

According to MLBTR, Blue Jays need SP, 2B, C, and are interested in both Phillips and Hanigan. So, my idea fantasy-style...

Reds trade: Bailey, Phillips, Ludwick, Hanigan
Jays trade: Bautista and Rasmus

Who hangs up?

Money seems to work. Jays open up space for Gose and Sierra, their two OF prospects, while improving the rotation and two premium defensive positions.

Reds get major OF upgrade and can move Hamilton to 2B. Rasmus only signed for 2014 (like Bailey) but Reds could get a cheap veteran bridge to Ervin if Hamilton sticks at 2B and Rasmus won't re-sign. Jocketty drafted Rasmus. Reds could then extend Latos and one of the other pitchers, or re-sign Rasmus if he can repeat 2013 and Ervin is still a ways off. Or they could just make Rasmus a qualifying offer.

2B Hamilton
CF Rasmus
1B Votto
LF Bautista
RF Bruce
3B Frazier
C Mesoraco
SS Cozart

Maybe Reds even agree to take on Ricky Romero if Jays pay 80-90% of his remaining salary, if it helps the financial equation. That guy clearly needs a change of scenery, at least.

[kpresidente]

One thing that strikes me about the entire rumor thread, is that there has not been one mention of the Reds, acquiring a nearly ready pitcher with options, in any of the trade rumors. After Cingrani, who is likely one of the starting 5, the Reds are going to be leaning on Corcino to be the 6th guy. Yikes! Who is the seventh? Sharky?

Both LeCure and Simon can start if need be. Stephenson could be ready by the All-Star break. There's always a host of AAAA pitchers that can be added to Lousville.

[Kc61]

Both LeCure and Simon can start if need be. Stephenson could be ready by the All-Star break. There's always a host of AAAA pitchers that can be added to Lousville.

I don't see Lecure as a viable option at all, he's become a one-inning reliever and hasn't started a single game since 2011. Simon is better equipped to start, but even he hasn't started since 2011.

Stephenson will depend on how he does. If he does great, he'll be knocking at the door in late May. If not, it will take longer.

The Reds have six starters if you include Chapman. They will acquire backup starting pitchers, particularly if they trade somebody like Bailey. I'm sure it's on their shopping list.

[blumj]

I'd love to see ANY deal with the Rangers bring back Gentry. The guy doesn't seem to be in their OF picture, and gets on base at a high clip. He'd make a good platoon/backup for Hamilton, or could play LF with BHam in CF.

Bailey for Kinsler and Gentry
Phillips to the Yankees (if they don't re-sign Cano) for Ivan Nova?
Every time someone comes up with a trade idea with the Yankees, my immediate reaction is that the Yankees can't afford to trade that guy, no matter who it's been, every single time. I honestly believe the Yankees can't afford to make a major trade, unless it's a pure salary dump, they almost have to just sign free agents because they need some of almost everything and have no extra anything that other teams would want.

[icehole3]

What would it take to get Daniel Murphy from the Mets? Anyone like this guy?

[kpresidente]

Slobber-knocker blockbuster time.

According to MLBTR, Blue Jays need SP, 2B, C, and are interested in both Phillips and Hanigan. So, my idea fantasy-style...

Reds trade: Bailey, Phillips, Ludwick, Hanigan
Jays trade: Bautista and Rasmus

Who hangs up?

Money seems to work. Jays open up space for Gose and Sierra, their two OF prospects, while improving the rotation and two premium defensive positions.


I had the same idea but I think the Jays are giving up too much. One quick and dirty way I try to look at it is just count up the wins and money on each side, so (just guessing)....

JAYS GET (~$70M)...
Bailey: 3.5
Phillips: 3, 2.5, 2.5, 2
Ludwick: 1.5 (DH)
Hanigan: 2
= 17 wins over 7 years @ $4.1M/win

REDS GET (~$50M)...
Bautista: 4, 4, 4
Rasmus: 3
= 15 wins over 4 years @ $3.3M/win

So the Reds are getting the better end here by a good bit. Pitching is a premium but I think you have to add a pretty good prospect. Maybe YRod. Either that or swap Ludwick for a mid-grade prospect like Corcino.

[HokieRed]

I hang up if I'm Toronto on the slobberknocker. Too much of what I have to deal to rebuild the team--Bautista, Rasmus--goes for way too much age--Hanigan, Phillips, Ludwick. And Bailey's walking after a year. If I've got to move Bautista and Rasmus, I want to get younger, not older.

[NeilHamburger]

If you're the Reds do you consider dealing Cingrani in a deal?

Lets say you deal: Cingrani, Phillips and Hanigan
Jays deal: Bautista

You could still have a rotation of: Cueto, Latos, Chapman, Bailey and Leake
And in 2015 (even if Bailey leaves) You would still have Cueto, Latos, Chapman, Stephenson, and Leake

[mth123]

If you're the Reds do you consider dealing Cingrani in a deal?

Lets say you deal: Cingrani, Phillips and Hanigan
Jays deal: Bautista

You could still have a rotation of: Cueto, Latos, Chapman, Bailey and Leake
And in 2015 (even if Bailey leaves) You would still have Cueto, Latos, Chapman, Stephenson, and Leake

Wouldn't make that deal. Cingrani, Mesoraco and Hamilton for Giancarlo Stanton? Sure. Wouldn't deal Cingrani for a 30 something guy making big bucks. Bautista would be a good get in a deal involving Phillips, but uber cheap guys who figure to fill significant roles in a deal for him would be a step backwards IMO.

[Kc61]

If you're the Reds do you consider dealing Cingrani in a deal?

Lets say you deal: Cingrani, Phillips and Hanigan
Jays deal: Bautista

You could still have a rotation of: Cueto, Latos, Chapman, Bailey and Leake
And in 2015 (even if Bailey leaves) You would still have Cueto, Latos, Chapman, Stephenson, and Leake

You can't trade Cingrani for offense. He's cheap and controllable and therefore has great value to the Reds.

The trade I could see assumes the Reds need to trade Bailey for contract reasons.

Bailey, Phillips, Hanigan, and Yorman Rodriguez to the Jays.
Bautista, Janssen the closer, and a good major league ready prospect to the Reds. Or maybe the Reds could get Lawrie in the deal, his offense has declined but he's still quite young.

[LoganBuck]

John Erardi threw this suggestion out on 700 WLW this morning. It made sense to me.

Reds trade
Aroldis Chapman
Brandon Phillips

to Detroit for
Austin Jackson
Rick Porcello
Nick Castellanos

Billy Hamilton plays 2B

I like that suggestion. Castellanos would probably be an upgrade to Frazier, while allowing Frazier to become the utility guy, by midseason at the latest. Allows team to consider dumping Hannahan.

[mdccclxix]

I'd like to see Granderson on a 3 year deal with a 4th year option. He fits in nicely with the current team window and would move on once a few of the minor league outfielders are close or ready.

He would cost a draft pick, but we'd get one back from Choo anyway. He could play center for a year until Billy is readier.

He might hit 35-40 home runs again. He could slot in anywhere from 1 through 6 in the order.

He's an energy guy and well liked.

He doesn't hit lefties that well, but he's improved the last 3 years. A player like YRod could learn a lot from him and even platoon to combine for quite a CF output.

[Kc61]

John Erardi threw this suggestion out on 700 WLW this morning. It made sense to me.

Reds trade
Aroldis Chapman
Brandon Phillips

to Detroit for
Austin Jackson
Rick Porcello
Nick Castellanos

Billy Hamilton plays 2B

I like that suggestion. Castellanos would probably be an upgrade to Frazier, while allowing Frazier to become the utility guy, by midseason at the latest. Allows team to consider dumping Hannahan.

Yeah, might enable us to watch Chapman in the World Series for the Tigers.

Reds probably would still beat out Milwaukee for third in the Central, maybe not.

[mdccclxix]

The other player I'd like to see signed is Stephen Drew. His offensive output is top 5 for SS in baseball. He's also left handed and could platoon with Cozart, who could possibly move to 2b. I don't think he'd cost a draft pick, and a 4 year deal would fit nicely with the Reds plan. There are not any infielders coming any time soon from their minors.

To make room for these players the Reds could deal Phillips, Hanigan and Bailey for a savings of 22 million next year. The return for those players would not need to be tied to immediate needs and could be focused on just getting the best return, even if it's a guy in A+ or AA. Imagine having another top 50 arm ready with Stephenson in 2015. Add to it a quality infield prospect (ranked 75-150) for 2b or 3b. It makes signing 2 of Latos, Cueto, Leake or Chapman to a long term deal much easier. One of the 2 un-extended pitchers (Leake and Cueto, IMO) would be traded next off season for more returns. The other would remain to help win in 2015.

[mdccclxix]

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu351/mdccclxix/lineup.png (http://s663.photobucket.com/user/mdccclxix/media/lineup.png.html)

[mth123]

The other player I'd like to see signed is Stephen Drew. His offensive output is top 5 for SS in baseball. He's also left handed and could platoon with Cozart, who could possibly move to 2b. I don't think he'd cost a draft pick, and a 4 year deal would fit nicely with the Reds plan. There are not any infielders coming any time soon from their minors.

To make room for these players the Reds could deal Phillips, Hanigan and Bailey for a savings of 22 million next year. The return for those players would not need to be tied to immediate needs and could be focused on just getting the best return, even if it's a guy in A+ or AA. Imagine having another top 50 arm ready with Stephenson in 2015. Add to it a quality infield prospect (ranked 75-150) for 2b or 3b. It makes signing 2 of Latos, Cueto, Leake or Chapman to a long term deal much easier. One of the 2 un-extended pitchers (Leake and Cueto, IMO) would be traded next off season for more returns. The other would remain to help win in 2015.

Signing Drew and Granderson would cost the Reds their first and second round picks and a ton of their available draft budget to sign guys who they may want over slot. Either by themselves would cost a first rounder and associated slot money.

[mdccclxix]

Signing Drew and Granderson would cost the Reds their first and second round picks and a ton of their available draft budget to sign guys who they may want over slot. Either by themselves would cost a first rounder and associated slot money.

I thought Drew wasn't offered, oops. With Choo going to say NYY or another place without a protected pick, the Reds get thier first rounder back...unless some rule states it go to the Red Sox, then they do still get a 2nd round pick.

In the case of no 1st round pick next year, the Reds would still have an opportunity to acquire top level talent through the Bailey, Phillips, Hanigan deal(s).

With the outfield well stuffed and a pitching heavy top 20 prospects, the only gap the Reds have in the next 2-3 years is a good infielder (hopefully that hits RH and gets on base) and another good starting pitcher to give them flexibility with extentions.

[LoganBuck]

I thought Drew wasn't offered, oops. With Choo going to say NYY or another place without a protected pick, the Reds get thier first rounder back...unless some rule states it go to the Red Sox, then they do still get a 2nd round pick.

In the case of no 1st round pick next year, the Reds would still have an opportunity to acquire top level talent through the Bailey, Phillips, Hanigan deal(s).

With the outfield well stuffed and a pitching heavy top 20 prospects, the only gap the Reds have in the next 2-3 years is a good infielder (hopefully that hits RH and gets on base) and another good starting pitcher to give them flexibility with extentions.

No all comp picks are now after the end of first round. If a team without a protected pick signs Choo etc, the round is shortened by one pick. With 14 players receiving qualifying offers the first round could potentially be as short as 16 picks(won't happen). If a team signs two guys they lose their second round pick, and the team losing the player still gets a pick in the compensatory round.

[mdccclxix]

No all comp picks are now after the end of first round. If a team without a protected pick signs Choo etc, the round is shortened by one pick. With 14 players receiving qualifying offers the first round could potentially be as short as 16 picks(won't happen). If a team signs two guys they lose their second round pick, and the team losing the player still gets a pick in the compensatory round.

So if they signed Granderson and Drew, they'd lose their 1st and 2nd round picks and still have a comp pick after 1st round for Choo? What would happen?

[LoganBuck]

So if they signed Granderson and Drew, they'd lose their 1st and 2nd round picks and still have a comp pick after 1st round for Choo? What would happen?

Yes. I think so, info on that type of scenario isn't readily available to read up on.

[LoganBuck]

Yes. I think so, info on that type of scenario isn't readily available to read up on.

Nope, I am wrong. Just found it. They would lose the compensatory pick.

[mdccclxix]

In either case, if the Reds want to sign these players, they may get them for less because their market is hurt by the comp pick protection. Granderson for 4 and 60 and Drew for 4 and 48 could end up being massive bargains. They also reinforce, and even accelerate, this 2014-2016 championship push while only raising payroll 5 million. Then there is the prospect return for Phillips, Bailey and Hanigan.

[cincinnati chili]

Slobber-knocker blockbuster time.

According to MLBTR, Blue Jays need SP, 2B, C, and are interested in both Phillips and Hanigan. So, my idea fantasy-style...

Reds trade: Bailey, Phillips, Ludwick, Hanigan
Jays trade: Bautista and Rasmus

Who hangs up?

Money seems to work. Jays open up space for Gose and Sierra, their two OF prospects, while improving the rotation and two premium defensive positions.

Reds get major OF upgrade and can move Hamilton to 2B. Rasmus only signed for 2014 (like Bailey) but Reds could get a cheap veteran bridge to Ervin if Hamilton sticks at 2B and Rasmus won't re-sign. Jocketty drafted Rasmus. Reds could then extend Latos and one of the other pitchers, or re-sign Rasmus if he can repeat 2013 and Ervin is still a ways off. Or they could just make Rasmus a qualifying offer.

2B Hamilton
CF Rasmus
1B Votto
LF Bautista
RF Bruce
3B Frazier
C Mesoraco
SS Cozart

Maybe Reds even agree to take on Ricky Romero if Jays pay 80-90% of his remaining salary, if it helps the financial equation. That guy clearly needs a change of scenery, at least.

Love this deal if you can make it happen, but I agree with the others that the Jays wouldn't do it. The more I think about it, if I'm the Jays I want either Cingrani or Stephenson. I'd prefer the former if I'm the Jays, but would require less in the way of other players.

I think realistically you can expect a deal looking something like this:

Cingrani
Phillips
Frazier (Frazier or Lawrie moves to OF, or the Jays bring in a 3rd team to get something for Frazier)

for

Bautista
Rasmus
M. Izturis
John Stilson (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1778508-ranking-blue-jays-top-10-prospects-after-the-2013-minor-league-season/page/7) or another pitching prospect (the Jays' top 6 prospects are all pitchers)

This would lead to a lineup looking like this:

Hamilton CF
Rasmus/Ludwick LF (Rasmus .286 career OBP v L)
Votto 1B
Bautista 3B
Bruce RF
Mesoraco C
Cozart SS
Izturis [or whoever they could trade Hanigan to get a better 2B]

What I like about this is if Hamilton really struggles, it gives you the option of sending him back to the minors, sliding Rasmus over to CF and giving Ludwick the chance to play every day.

and the rotation looking like:

Cueto
Latos
Bailey
Leake
[free agent until Stephenson is ready... unless Marshall or Chapman goes to the rotation]

ON THE OTHER HAND. If the Reds insist on keeping Cingrani, I think the Reds will need to give up more players or eat some of the Jays' bad contracts. Maybe something like this

Stephenson
Phillips
Hanigan
Ludwick
Winker or Ervin [again ... all the Jays best prospects are pitchers, so unless it's an immediate impact guy like Cingrani, they'll want a hitting prospect]

for

Bautista
Rasmus
M. Izturis

That would leave a lineup of


Rasmus/Heisey CF (Rasmus .286 career OBP v L)
Frazier 3B
Votto 1B
Bautista LF
Bruce RF
Mesoraco C
Cozart SS
Izturis [or free agent] 2B

-Hamilton spends another season or part season in AAA. I don't see them pushing him to 2B when, by all accounts he was a plus CF in his first year doing it.

Rotation becomes

Cueto
Latos
Bailey
Cingrani
Leake


I'm not sure any of us has it quite right, but the more I think about it, the more I think the two teams match up well as trading partners.

[WrongVerb]

Maybe Reds even agree to take on Ricky Romero if Jays pay 80-90% of his remaining salary, if it helps the financial equation. That guy clearly needs a change of scenery, at least.

Didn't Romero's shoulder blow up? He's off the Jays' 40-man roster at this point.

[WebScorpion]

I still haven't decided who I think would put this team over the top, but I do know these things:

I'd keep Bailey and trade Cueto...Bailey gets stronger every year and Cueto seems to be doing the opposite and Bailey has 2 no-hitters already. Besides, we'll probably get more in return for Cueto.

Billy Hamilton seems to be a natural born center fielder. His speed can be used to maximum advantage in center field...he's definitely no major league SS and I doubt he'd pick up second base as quickly as he did CF. He's also a game changer and possibly the first of a new wave of slap hitting, speed merchants...the steroid era is over and baseball runs in cycles. Someone will put together a team built on speed and win a lot of games, why not us?

I don't think we'll get much for DatDude. I'd love to keep him if it doesn't disrupt the team, but I'd like to see him bat 7th. If he IS too disruptive, then we'll need to dump him and that's another gaping hole we need to fill. :(

A right-handed left fielder that can rake should be one of the easiest things to find. Why can't the Reds seem to get one? It's been the same glaring need for years...

You can carry on with the dreaming now... ;)

[RollyInRaleigh]

Is Phillips really that disruptive?

[corkedbat]

Fantasy Baseball Time

CF Colby Rasmus
2B Omar Infante
1B Joey Votto
LF Jose Bautista
RF Jay Bruce
3B Todd Frazier
CA Devin Mesaraco
SS Zach Cozart

MI Tim Beckham
MI/OF Skip Schumaker
OF (RH Bench Bat)
OF Matt Joyce
CA Brayan Pena

S1 Mat Latos
S2 Jonny Cueto
S3 Homer Bailey
S4 Mike Leake
S5 Tony Cingrani
LR (FA Starter/LR)
MR Sam Lecure
7L Manny Parra
7R Alfredo Simon
8L Mike Marshall
8R Jesse Crain
CL JJ Hoover

Brandon Phillips
Ryan Ludwick
Aroldis Chapman
Ishmael Guillion
Neftali Soto

(To TOR for)

Jose Bautista
Colby Rasmus
Drew Hutchinson (or other RH arm)

Ryan Hanigan
Jonathan Broxton
Chris Heisey
Dan Corcino

(To TB for)

Matt Joyce
Tim Beckham
(Maybe take a 1yr bad contract from TB or pay part of Broxton's deal and get a young arm back as well)

Reds Sign:
2B - Omar Infante
RH Bench Bat - Rajai Davis (or) Chris Young (or) Nate McClouth (or) Jason Kubel (or) Delmon Young (or) Andres Torres (or) Franklin Gutierrez INF Wilson Betemit (or) Juan Uribe (Best Bargain you can make) (or) Derrick Robinson
Backend Releiver - Jesse Crain
Starter/Long Reliever - (One or Two 2nd Tier Starters to challenge Cingani for the fifth spot and add depth) [+ a MiLB deal and ST invite for Roy Oswalt?]

Re-sign Manny Parra too.

[George Foster]

I hang up if I'm Toronto on the slobberknocker. Too much of what I have to deal to rebuild the team--Bautista, Rasmus--goes for way too much age--Hanigan, Phillips, Ludwick. And Bailey's walking after a year. If I've got to move Bautista and Rasmus, I want to get younger, not older.

If they help us to the World Series next year I don't care how old they are. The time is NOW, our window is closing. Screw 2015,2016....bet it all on 2014. Seriously, there has to be a time when a small market team pushes in all of it's chips. If last year showed us anything is this team needs a mix of vets and young players.

[George Foster]

I still haven't decided who I think would put this team over the top, but I do know these things:

I'd keep Bailey and trade Cueto...Bailey gets stronger every year and Cueto seems to be doing the opposite and Bailey has 2 no-hitters already. Besides, we'll probably get more in return for Cueto.

Billy Hamilton seems to be a natural born center fielder. His speed can be used to maximum advantage in center field...he's definitely no major league SS and I doubt he'd pick up second base as quickly as he did CF. He's also a game changer and possibly the first of a new wave of slap hitting, speed merchants...the steroid era is over and baseball runs in cycles. Someone will put together a team built on speed and win a lot of games, why not us?

I don't think we'll get much for DatDude. I'd love to keep him if it doesn't disrupt the team, but I'd like to see him bat 7th. If he IS too disruptive, then we'll need to dump him and that's another gaping hole we need to fill. :(

A right-handed left fielder that can rake should be one of the easiest things to find. Why can't the Reds seem to get one? It's been the same glaring need for years...

You can carry on with the dreaming now... ;)

I agree about keeping Bailey and trading Cueto. To me Cueto does not seem like he has a high baseball IQ.

[joshua]

If Bailey and Cueto have the same contract then yes, you keep Bailey. But Bailey has one year left. If we trade Cueto and then Bailey goes elsewhere for 2014 and Chapman doesn't convert to starter we are suddenly in trouble.

[membengal]

If you trade Cueto, you go ahead and lock up Bailey.

[Cedric]

I agree about keeping Bailey and trading Cueto. To me Cueto does not seem like he has a high baseball IQ.

Is this real? So the guy who limits gopher balls like no other at GABP is a mental midget?

I actually think LeCure and Cueto "work" hitters better than anyone else on the team. I'm just not sure what you have to back up such a strong claim.

[HokieRed]

If they help us to the World Series next year I don't care how old they are. The time is NOW, our window is closing. Screw 2015,2016....bet it all on 2014. Seriously, there has to be a time when a small market team pushes in all of it's chips. If last year showed us anything is this team needs a mix of vets and young players.

I was looking at the trade from Toronto's side.

[HokieRed]

If you trade Cueto, you go ahead and lock up Bailey.

Hate to say it, but I think the long range plan will have to include the strong possibility that none of Bailey, Cueto, Latos, or even Leake will sign a long term deal without testing the free agent market.

[LoganBuck]

Hate to say it, but I think the long range plan will have to include the strong possibility that none of Bailey, Cueto, Latos, or even Leake will sign a long term deal without testing the free agent market.

Latos did just buy a serious home in the Cincinnati area.

[membengal]

Hate to say it, but I think the long range plan will have to include the strong possibility that none of Bailey, Cueto, Latos, or even Leake will sign a long term deal without testing the free agent market.

They can plan for that contingency, I suppose (and probably should to be safe), but I can't imagine that they won't be able to lock up two of those once they sort out who they want to target. They have money, not limitless, but they do have resources. They will allocate that money to the staff, I would imagine, once they sort out who they are dealing.

[757690]

Looks like Profar is off the market. Rangers about to trade Kinsler to the Tigers for Prince Fielder.

[Hillsdale87]

Looks like Profar is off the market. Rangers about to trade Kinsler to the Tigers for Prince Fielder.

And removes Detroit from the market for Phillips

[mth123]

And removes Detroit from the market for Phillips

Can Kinsler play 3rd? Could make Miggy the 1B and Phillips to Detroit back on.

Castellanos at 3rd?

[Hillsdale87]

Can Kinsler play 3rd? Could make Miggy the 1B and Phillips to Detroit back on.

Castellanos at 3rd?

I think Castellanos to 3rd is the expectation

[UPRedsFan]

The Blue Jays website lists 5 questions to be answered. Among them is whether Bautista is traded. And Phillips is mentioned as a desirable upgrade for them at 2b and Hanigan as an upgrade at C.

I wonder....

Bautista for Phillips, Hanigan and a prospect?

[LoganBuck]

Dang. The Tigers Rangers trade has serious ramifications for the Reds. It kills off trades with either team. The only remaining logical trade partners are the BlueJays, and the Royals.

[kaldaniels]

Texas not as dumb as I thought they may be.

You find a way to unblock the top prospect (arguably) in baseball.

[757690]

The good news with this trade is that the baseball world no longer has to suffer through watching Prince Fielder play first base. His middle name should be "Not A Good"

[R_Webb18]

Texas not as dumb as I thought they may be.

You find a way to unblock the top prospect (arguably) in baseball.

they better be getting a ton of money back

[LoganBuck]

they better be getting a ton of money back

Baseball writers tweeting $30 Million to Rangers

[dfs]

Texas not as dumb as I thought they may be.

You find a way to unblock the top prospect (arguably) in baseball.

......I don't quible with who they got rid of and I really don't mind what they got back if the money balances. Prince's contract still has $150 million on it over 6 years. He's already a big guy, but....

Great deal for Detroit. Again...depending on how the cash lines up.

[corkedbat]

I wonder....

Bautista for Phillips, Hanigan and a prospect?

Soto can be the prospect. Their seemed to like his potential as a "2B Prospect" the other day. :D

[HokieRed]

Soto can be the prospect. Their seemed to like his potential as a "2B Prospect" the other day. :D

I suspect Soto won't get this done. What do we really think about something like Phillips, Hanigan, and Yorman for Bautista? {That's a name I think they'd want]

[757690]

Good news is that with Profar off the market, the Reds have a good shot at David Price now.

[Kc61]

I suspect Soto won't get this done. What do we really think about something like Phillips, Hanigan, and Yorman for Bautista? {That's a name I think they'd want]

If the Reds can get Bautista without trading Bailey, they should do it.

Phillips, Hanigan and Yorman? I'd do it.

I think the Jays would try for an expanded deal including Bailey.

[corkedbat]

I suspect Soto won't get this done. What do we really think about something like Phillips, Hanigan, and Yorman for Bautista? {That's a name I think they'd want]

It was tongue-in-cheek - hence the :D. I was referring to this article from a little while back.

http://jaysjournal.com/2013/11/08/ryan-hanigan-become-blue-jays-trade-target/

[corkedbat]

If the Reds can get Bautista without trading Bailey, they should do it.

Phillips, Hanigan and Yorman? I'd do it.

I think the Jays would try for an expanded deal including Bailey.

If they did, I'd want Rasmus also.

[RedEye]

Good news is that with Profar off the market, the Reds have a good shot at David Price now.

Say what?

[757690]

Say what?

Rays are actively shopping Price. The most talked about rumor had him going to the Rangers for a package including Profar. That ain't happening now, which gives the Reds a shot at Price.

[RED VAN HOT]

IMO, the board is over valuing Bautista, a 33 yo OF'er already showing declining production who had two really good years. He's not a .950 OPS guy anymore. I might do a trade for Phillips straight up. No more.

[mth123]

I suspect Soto won't get this done. What do we really think about something like Phillips, Hanigan, and Yorman for Bautista? {That's a name I think they'd want]

I'd do that in a second. Doubt Bautista goes without a good starting pitcher involved.

Can Bruce play CF with Bautista in RF?

[RedEye]

Rays are actively shopping Price. The most talked about rumor had him going to the Rangers for a package including Profar. That ain't happening now, which gives the Reds a shot at Price.

Ah, okay, now I see how the dots got connected there. Still... I love Price, but I'm not sure the Reds are (or really should be) in the market for another top-shelf SP.

[RedEye]

Can Bruce play CF with Bautista in RF?

I think so, yeah. Choo played it.

[mth123]

Rays are actively shopping Price. The most talked about rumor had him going to the Rangers for a package including Profar. That ain't happening now, which gives the Reds a shot at Price.

I'm guessing Price to the Dodgers for Zach Lee, Corey Seager, Joc Pederson and maybe more.

Kershaw, Price, Greinke, Ryu, Beckett/Billingsly?? Gulp!!!!

[mth123]

I think Castellanos to 3rd is the expectation

Wonder if they'd want a veteran, lefty hitting, glove man to caddy for him. Schumaker probably takes Hannahan's spot on the roster. Detroit may be a good place to pawn him off. Hannahan for Phil Coke? Reds need lefty bullpen depth and Coke seems to be out of the plans in Detroit. Might be pricey, but it's better than eating Hannahan's $3 Million. Reds could still non-tender Coke if he won't be reasonable and pursues arb. They still get out of Hannahan's deal that way.

Coke's split's weren't a wow. He gave up a .760 OPS against LH Hitters but a .373 BABIP might be the culprit. Small samples to make much out of, but could be a decent Loogy with Parra gone and Marshall's health still iffy...

[RedTeamGo!]

Wonder if they'd want a veteran, lefty hitting, glove man to caddy for him. Schumaker probably takes Hannahan's spot on the roster. Detroit may be a good place to pawn him off. Hannahan for Phil Coke? Reds need lefty bullpen depth and Coke seems to be out of the plans in Detroit. Might be pricey, but it's better than eating Hannahan's $3 Million. Reds could still non-tender Coke if he won't be reasonable and pursues arb. They still get out of Hannahan's deal that way.

Coke's split's weren't a wow. He gave up a .760 OPS against LH Hitters but a .373 BABIP might be the culprit. Small samples to make much out of, but could be a decent Loogy with Parra gone and Marshall's health still iffy...

The only problem is Castellanos to 3rd is not the expectation. Reports out of Detroit the past couple years have said Castellanos is not even as good as Miguel Cabrera at third base. He is going to stay in left. I think they are either going to resign Jhonny Peralta or trade for a 3B. Chase Headley, maybe?

[klw]

Dang. The Tigers Rangers trade has serious ramifications for the Reds. It kills off trades with either team. The only remaining logical trade partners are the BlueJays, and the Royals.

It may increase the potential return for Bailey however. If the deal has freed up enough money for the Tigers not to shop Scherzer, it would take a top arm off the market and leave Bailey alone in that land between Price and the Free Agents.

[kpresidente]

IMO, the board is over valuing Bautista, a 33 yo OF'er already showing declining production who had two really good years. He's not a .950 OPS guy anymore. I might do a trade for Phillips straight up. No more.

A declining Bautista is just better than a declining Phillips no matter how I look at it. I would say Hanigan would even it out if he had more years on his contract...but he doesn't.

[wolfboy]

A declining Bautista is just better than a declining Phillips no matter how I look at it. I would say Hanigan would even it out if he had more years on his contract...but he doesn't.

Bautista, even with a declining bat, is a potent weapon in this offense. Put him behind Votto in the batting order, and Votto starts seeing a lot more hittable pitches.

[buckeyenut]

I suspect Soto won't get this done. What do we really think about something like Phillips, Hanigan, and Yorman for Bautista? {That's a name I think they'd want]

This is a deal I could get behind.

[Joseph]

Royals expected to make a major baseball related announcement at 4 CST.

Brandon Phillips to KC?

[LoganBuck]

Royals expected to make a major baseball related announcement at 4 CST.

Brandon Phillips to KC?

RoyalsFest lineup of players to sign autographs? Oh wait..... that is what we do in the offseason.

[Joseph]

I just wonder why they specified its a baseball related announcement. They are a baseball team. I expect all their announcements to be baseball related.

[klw]

It will stream at the Royals.com site.

Brendan Mark ‏@bmmark 20m

#Royals 4pm "major baseball-related announcement" will be streamed live on http://royals.com

Maybe they will have Lorde sing at opening day next season.

http://www.kansascity.com/2013/11/19/4634095/george-brett-kc-royals-inspire.html

Says VH1: "There's no denying the fact that 'Royals' has seized the zeitgeist. And speaking of that track, Lorde herself recently spoke to us about how the song was inspired in part with her obsession with historic monarchs and, strangely enough, by an image of a baseball player wearing a Kansas City Royals jersey in National Geographic."

[LoganBuck]

I just wonder why they specified its a baseball related announcement. They are a baseball team. I expect all their announcements to be baseball related.

Most of the time if it isn't being jumped on by the national baseball press, it usually is something to do with the affiliates, Spring training, the coaching staff, or the front office types.

When Ken Rosenthal breaks out in hives you have a story.


EDIT: Dayton Moore just said that it is a trade pending physicals.

[LoganBuck]

Per Brian Kenny on Twitter

Moore can not comment - says physical needed..on trade that will be announced.

[Joseph]

Most of the time if it isn't being jumped on by the national baseball press, it usually is something to do with the affiliates, Spring training, the coaching staff, or the front office types.

When Ken Rosenthal breaks out in hives you have a story.


EDIT: Dayton Moore just said that it is a trade pending physicals.

Yep, has to be that they acquired Phillips. He was in the airport this morning per twitter.

</facts>

[Edd Roush]

Yep, has to be that they acquired Phillips. He was in the airport this morning per twitter.

</facts>

Was in the KC airport?

[LoganBuck]

Yep, has to be that they acquired Phillips. He was in the airport this morning per twitter.

</facts>

There is no other possibility remaining. :D

[Joseph]

They signed Jason Vargas apparently, but that's not a trade.

[klw]

Royals To Sign Jason Vargas
By Steve Adams [November 21 at 3:00pm CST]

The Royals have reached an agreement to sign free agent left-hander Jason Vargas, tweets Jeff Passan of Yahoo Sports. The CAA client was seeking a three-year deal, notes Passan, though terms of the contract are unknown at this time.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/11/royals-to-sign-jason-vargas.html

[Joseph]

Was in the KC airport?

I don't know honestly. In all fairness I don't even know that it was a pic taken today, it was just tweeted today.

[PepperJack]

I'm going to guess that they signed Jason Vargas, and someone in the Royals front office has no idea what a "major announcement" is.

[LoganBuck]

Kenny now backtracking. Says his mistake.

[RedTeamGo!]

Royals are a bad fit anyways.

[klw]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BZn-KiuCMAA7eJO.jpg
Looks like Vargas is the reason for the presser.

[Joseph]

That's not a MAJOR baseball announcement.

Sorry Dayton.

[RedTeamGo!]

Dayton Moore is a clown

[Chip R]

That's not a MAJOR baseball announcement.

Sorry Dayton.

For the Royals it is.

[marcshoe]

Wow. That's almost as big as the Gil Meche signing a few years ago.

[bob jones]

maybe he can accounce a McRae trade for Roger Nelson and Richie Scheinblum

[klw]

Wow. That's almost as big as the Gil Meche signing a few years ago.

Or the Reds inking Eric Milton.

[REDREAD]

Wow. That's almost as big as the Gil Meche signing a few years ago.

Not quite as big as the Reds signing Vanderwall a few years ago :)

[toledodan]

lol royals

[corkedbat]

Out of Choo and the main OF trade targets I've seen proposed (Gardner, Rasmus, Bautista, Kemp, Either, Willingham, etc.) my head tells me that Kemp or Bautista are going to cost the most in talent and be the riskiest bets, but my heart would love to see either of them batting between Votto and Bruce.

[RedlegJake]

Great. Vargas replaces Santana and the Royals take their first step backwards this winter. I'm sure it won't be their last.

[corkedbat]

Brandon Phillips, Daniel Corcino & Henry Rodriguez for Brett Gardner, David Robertson & Dean Anna.

Homer Bailey or Aroldis Chapman and Ryan Ludwick for Jose Bautista & John Stilson

Ryan Hanigan, Chris Heisey, Logan Ondrusek & RyanLeMarre for Matt Joyce, Tim Beckham + a prospect

[M2]

Allow me to say this again, Dave Robertson is not getting dealt this winter. He's among the least available relievers in MLB. If the Reds are willing to move Homer Bailey for him, then I suppose the Yankees would talk, but the Yankees don't have enough IP to go around.

Also, if they were to deal Gardner, I suspect they'd then break the bank going after Ellsbury and Choo.

[thatcoolguy_22]

Jason Vargas receiving a 32 million dollar contract just confirmed that my first born son will be forced to be a pitcher.

"How was soccer practice?"

"Awesome!"

"Terrible? Aww my bad, son. Grab your glove."

[thatcoolguy_22]

This (http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=8044&position=P) is what 32 million is worth now? :confused:

[Superdude]

This (http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=8044&position=P) is what 32 million is worth now? :confused:

It's fitting they had name tags at the press conference, because I'm willing to admit I had no idea who Jason Vargas was. Good for him though!

[wolfboy]

This (http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=8044&position=P) is what 32 million is worth now? :confused:

This was apparently worth 25.5 million nine years ago: http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=743&position=P

Teams get it really wrong sometimes.

[RedTeamGo!]

Is it just me or is the complete lack of rumors coming out about the Reds this week strange?

I am unsure of how to take this. Part of me thinks there is something huge about to break any minute now while the other part of me thinks Uncle Walt is napping in his favorite rocking chair.

[corkedbat]

Is it just me or is the complete lack of rumors coming out about the Reds this week strange?

I am unsure of how to take this. Part of me thinks there is something huge about to break any minute now while the other part of me thinks Uncle Walt is napping in his favorite rocking chair.

That is in part because Walt and his inner circle do leak info or float trail baloons like others. He also lets the market settle out before acting on anything. This approach often leads to him missing opportunities, but at the same time often hellps avoid mistakes.

I would think we are looking at 2-3 fairly significant deals this Winter, but probabably not until the period beginning the week after Christmas and running through the end of January.

[Benihana]

That is in part because Walt and his inner circle do leak info or float trail baloons like others. He also lets the market settle out before acting on anything. This approach often leads to him missing opportunities, but at the same time often hellps avoid mistakes.

I would think we are looking at 2-3 fairly significant deals this Winter, but probabably not until the period beginning the week after Christmas and running through the end of January.

The last two years, it has been the last 10 days of December where Walt makes his splash. That's when the Latos deal happened two years ago and the Choo deal last year. The next six weeks should be interesting and informative.

[dfs]

That is in part because Walt and his inner circle do leak info or float trail baloons like others.

I'm thinking there's a not missing from that quote.

Walt doesn't .....handle....the press like Bowden did. His deals don't tend to appear till they are done. I don't think anybody say Latos or Choo coming our way till the deals were done.

I'm ok with that. Walt has traditionally identified what his team needed and then acquired it. I'm actually kind of interested in what he thinks this team needs.

[LoganBuck]

The last two years, it has been the last 10 days of December where Walt makes his splash. That's when the Latos deal happened two years ago and the Choo deal last year. The next six weeks should be interesting and informative.

Yep, I still think something gets resolved on Hanigan before the arbitration deadline of December 2. It would allow his new team to negotiate a longer term deal.

[RadfordVA]

Bourjos to the Cardinals. Presumably for Freese.

[badcontent]

Bourjos to the Cardinals. Presumably for Freese.
OK, how is this not a bad deal for the Cardinals?

[LoganBuck]

OK, how is this not a bad deal for the Cardinals?

Bourjos doesn't know how to find first base. :thumbup: Because with their ridiculous RISP luck from last year, that team needs a catalyst to reign that back in.

[corkedbat]

The last two years, it has been the last 10 days of December where Walt makes his splash. That's when the Latos deal happened two years ago and the Choo deal last year. The next six weeks should be interesting and informative.

You're right. Point is, just don't expect anything major Walt until his Christmas dinner has been digested and he wakes up from his nap. :D

[mdccclxix]

Can Garrett Jones play left as well as cover RF and LF? A good bench bat?

[Edd Roush]

Can Garrett Jones play left as well as cover RF and LF? A good bench bat?

I was wondering the same thing. Garrett definitely took a step back in 2013, but Jones owns a career .271/.337/.489 line against righties. I know his glove is not good, but would it hurt us a lot in left field?

[LoganBuck]

Pittsburgh is the same or worse off than the Reds on offense for 2014. If there isn't any room in Pittsburgh for Jones, why is there in Cincinnati?

[Spitball]

Yes, Garrett Jones would make a good platoon partner in left field in my opinion. He did have an off year last year but did hit 15 homers.

[RadfordVA]

You're right. Point is, just don't expect anything major Walt until his Christmas dinner has been digested and he wakes up from his nap. :D

Latos(dec 17), Choo(dec 12) and Marshall(dec 23) were all traded for before Christmas. The Jocketty sleeping on the job thing gets old. He probably just prefers to get to the GM meetings and explore all options before making a hasty move.

The guy has probably made the best trades in MLB each of the last two offseasons. I would hate to see if he had traded for Cahill and Ben Revere instead.

[corkedbat]

Latos(dec 17), Choo(dec 12) and Marshall(dec 23) were all traded for before Christmas. The Jocketty sleeping on the job thing gets old. He probably just prefers to get to the GM meetings and explore all options before making a hasty move.

The guy has probably made the best trades in MLB each of the last two offseasons. I would hate to see if he had traded for Cahill and Ben Revere instead.

Lighten up Alice. I was just joking about the Nap and "winking" at the past talk of him sleeping on the job - hence the big grin emoticon. If I really was serious and wanted to be mean, I would have called it his "long Winter's nap."

[klw]

I would not be surprised to see a big move or moves coming shortly. With McCann signing and Navarro being close to signing, the market for catchers is tightening. The Tigers move may take Scherzer off the market and until the posting system is figured out, Tanaka is not available. Cano's demands have alienated the entire 2b market and if the Yankees get Beltran to join McCann, they might want a new solution for 2nd. This combo may make the demand for Hanigan, Bailey, and Phillips at its greatest. This may be the time Walt can get the returns, he wants.

[corkedbat]

How about an expanded deal around Brandon Phillips for Aaron Crow, possibly freeing up one of Chapman, Bailey, Cueto or Leake for a bat and maybe a young infielder or closer candidate?

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/11/aaron-crow-tim-collins-very-available-in-trades.html

[mth123]

How about an expanded deal around Brandon Phillips for Aaron Crow, possibly freeing up one of Chapman, Bailey, Cueto or Leake for a bat and maybe a young infielder or closer candidate?

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/11/aaron-crow-tim-collins-very-available-in-trades.html

I'm in the deal Phillips camp and even I don't think that's enough. Adding Collins makes it better because the Reds need the lefty, but adding even more money to the pen seems counter-productive.

[OneManBand]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Reds never seem to have a bullpen issue. Even with injuries this team is usually pretty solid in that area. Dealing Phillips for bullpen support has the makings of the Kearns deal with the Nats.. This teams issue last season was inconsistency in scoring runs. They'd score 9 runs one game and then not score 9 runs combined for the next 8 games. So dealing a guy who drove in 100+ runs and plays gold glove defense just to dump his contract is ludicrous. Especially to KC and not get something in return other then bullpen arms.

[mdccclxix]

Thinking about Bailey...

Would you rather have:

I) Bailey for 2014 - 9 million in payroll space + 2015 draft pick around #40
a) Chapman as closer (finally close the book on him as starter?)
b) Longer opportunity to sign to an extension
(added) c) Stephenson is "more ready" in 2015 than if he were called into duty in 2014.

II) No Bailey for 2014 + 9 million in payroll space + approximately a top 25-50 prospect to help during the current window + smaller trade pieces
a) Chapman to rotation boom or bust
b) relieves "logjam" in rotation to an extent

[mdccclxix]

I'd have to lean towards keeping Bailey and trusting the organization to get a good draft pick in 2015. The trading Bailey weakens the rotation and the bullpen in a lot of circumstances. 2014 is still time to push for a championship.

[Kc61]

I'd have to lean towards keeping Bailey and trusting the organization to get a good draft pick in 2015. The trading Bailey weakens the rotation and the bullpen in a lot of circumstances. 2014 is still time to push for a championship.

This is the Reds' dilemma.

I don't think BP alone is going to fetch a major player for 2014. Maybe a couple of nice role players, but not a major player.

Trading Homer and BP gets you the major player.

But it also weakens pitching for 2014. Trading Bailey weakens pitching short term.

The best answer from a baseball perspective is to re-sign Choo, keep the outfield intact, and if BP gets traded get some nice players back. Keep Bailey.

If the Reds can't sign Choo, then there will be pressure to trade Homer to add back a major Choo replacement. This will weaken pitching.

This is the problemin a nutshell. I'd rather keep Choo, keep Bailey for 2014, and add role players.

But it might not be feasible financially.

[corkedbat]

Thinking about Bailey...

Would you rather have:

I) Bailey for 2014 - 9 million in payroll space + 2015 draft pick around #40
a) Chapman as closer (finally close the book on him as starter?)
b) Longer opportunity to sign to an extension

II) No Bailey for 2014 + 9 million in payroll space + approximately a top 25-50 prospect to help during the current window + smaller trade pieces
a) Chapman to rotation boom or bust
b) relieves "logjam" in rotation to an extent

As to Ib - everything I have read and heard over the past couple of year's has lead me to believe that Homer will test the market. If I'm wrong then the Reds need to get their very best offer in front of him and press him for a final answer )I find it difficult to believe that his hasn't alreadsy been done).

If they can sign him, Great! - this discussion is moot and i'll be as happy as anyone. If though. as I suspect, then Walt needs to seriously explore his value on the trade market. This does not mean that he has to be dealt - if a very high return is not there, then by all means keep him and take the draft pick. Not seriously exploring the trade option though would be a serious case of negligence IMO.

I understand those that say you don't trade good starting pitching and I agree to an extent. At the same time though, the Reds are a medium-sized market with a moderate payroll and a farmystem that (at present) is mediocre at best especially - with the exception of Stephenson - when it comes to impact prospects in the upper reaches.

I do not beleive that they Reds will be able to re-up or afford the abitration costs of Bailey, Latos, Cuseto and Chapman. At some point, I believe you need to start getting somehing more than a draft pick that is at least three-five years from helping the big league team. As painful as it may be you need to make tough decisions and deal them with at least a full year from their walk date to try and maximize your return.

I have read the arguments that the Reds window is small and they need to hang onto to Bailey (and others) to take advantage of that window and disagree. I believe that this roster is starting to become expensive and you need churn to grow younger, more affordable/controllable and more competitive now and in the future. I don't like the talk of well, lets try hard now and then become the Astros for another 5-10 years.

I'm certainly not saying its an easy job for Walt and it certainly isn't a no-risk propostion, but I like it better than watching, Arroyo, Choo, Bailey and possible even Latos and/or Cueto just walk away with nothing in return for a couple of late first or 2nd round picks.

[corkedbat]

Additionally, if your arguement is that the Reds should hold onto guys like Bailey without seeking a maximum return so we can take advantage of the Reds window for competeing with this current group - I would counter by saying unless the Reds dramatically upgrading talent this offseason that window probably slammed shut when Choo and Arroyo when through it.

[mdccclxix]

I do not beleive that they Reds will be able to re-up or afford the abitration costs of Bailey, Latos, Cuseto and Chapman. At some point, I believe you need to start getting somehing more than a draft pick that is at least three-five years from helping the big league team. As painful as it may be you need to make tough decisions and deal them with at least a full year from their walk date to try and maximize your return.

I have read the arguments that the Reds window is small and they need to hang onto to Bailey (and others) to take advantage of that window and disagree. I believe that this roster is starting to become expensive and you need churn to grow younger, more affordable/controllable and more competitive now and in the future. I don't like the talk of well, lets try had now and then become the Astros for another 5-10 years.

I'm certainly not saying its an easy job for Walt and it certainly isn't a no-risk propostion, but I like it better than watching, Arroyo, Choo, Bailey and possible even Latos and/or Cueto just walk away with nothing in return for a couple of late fist or 2nd round picks.

I agree a return on Bailey this year would accelerate their prospect pipeline. It would likely need to be an arm in A+ or AA last year that would come back for Bailey. One that could even help out in 2014 if needed. That way the Reds could pick Cueto and/or Latos for an extension in 2015 depending on how Stephenson and the new top 50 arm would do, etc. Throw in Hanigan or Phillips in such a deal and maybe the Reds have a prospect middle infield bat to plug in too, but that's getting too complicated.

If the Reds do keep Bailey and just get a 40th pick in the draft, that won't turn them into the Astros in 2015. They will absolutely go full out for Latos or Cueto or both.

Remaining stable in 2014 for the whole pitching staff could go a long way. The Reds won the division in 2012 without Choo with an amazing staff. Next year's with Bailey could be even better. Meanwhile, the other option is to bring back the entire team from last year, minus Phillips and Hanigan, plus the return they bring, plus Skip and Pena (so far). Meaning, swapping Phillips and Hanigan for Choo sticking around could have far less impact than moving Bailey and compromising the #1 aspect of this team's success: pitching.

[OneManBand]

Additionally, if your arguement is that the Reds should hold onto guys like Bailey without seeking a maximum return so we can take advantage of the Reds window for competeing with this current group - I would counter by saying unless the Reds dramatically upgrading talent this offseason that window probably slammed shut when Choo and Arroyo when through it.

In turn what did the Reds win with those two in the fold?

[PepperJack]

On Garrett Jones, if the price was right, I would welcome him in the Xavier Paul role.

[mdccclxix]

Another aspect to keeping Bailey: Stephenson is "more ready" in 2015 than if he were called into duty in 2014. I'll try to add that as c) above.

[PepperJack]

On the Royals RP for BP, there could be something to build if you wanted to.

Crow/Hochevar, Colon, Cuthbert for Phillips?

[PepperJack]

On trading Bailey, it would take an overpay for me to want to part with him.

Questions over the health of Cueto, Latos, Cingrani. The departure of Arroyo, and the unknown of Chapman to rotation, makes me think there are more questions than we may be willing to admit, in regards to the team's pitching heading into 2014.

[mdccclxix]

What do people think of falling back on Granderson if Choo is gone? Very similar circumstances, he'd move to LF soon enough. He could lead off or hit 6th. He could hit 30-40 hr. Sign for 4 years. Instead of the 20th and 36th pick, they'd just have the 36th pick next year in the draft. That's the biggest downside, but could be parlayed into a bargain type deal. 15 million per over 4 years with 5th year 2 million dollar buyout-ish.

[Kc61]

What do people think of falling back on Granderson if Choo is gone? Very similar circumstances, he'd move to LF soon enough. He could lead off or hit 6th. He could hit 30-40 hr. Sign for 4 years. Instead of the 20th and 36th pick, they'd just have the 36th pick next year in the draft. That's the biggest downside, but could be parlayed into a bargain type deal. 15 million per over 4 years with 5th year 2 million dollar buyout-ish.

This is good thinking. But given draft choice compensation, Granderson might be cheaper than that.

Would allow Reds some payflex to add still another player as well.

Given Granderson's injury situation and draft choice comp, maybe $12 million per year over three or four years.

Good thought IMO.

[thatcoolguy_22]

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/11/rockies-talking-trade-with-angels-royals.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook


Rockies Talking Trade With Angels, Royals
By Zach Links [November 26, 2013 at 12:42pm CST]
After making strong plays for free agents Jose Dariel Abreu, Brian McCann, and Carlos Ruiz, the Rockies are searching hard for impact bat and relief help. The Rockies have talked with the Angels about slugger Mark Trumbo and called the Royals about their surplus of relievers, according to Troy E. Renck of the Denver Post.

Trumbo, of course, will be hard to pry away and has drawn interest from several clubs in need of a power bat. A deal with KC might be easier to swing, writes Renck, as Colorado's main trade piece, center fielder Dexter Fowler, could be a fit in Kansas City. Opposing execs have said for weeks that the Rockies are open to trading Fowler and they've already talked with Carlos Gonzalez about playing in center if necessary.

Royals relievers Aaron Crow and Tim Collins are reportedly "very available" via trade, and Wade Davis could be a trade candidate after the signing of free agent starter Jason Vargas. Both Crow and Collins are headed into the first year of arbitration eligibility and MLBTRs Matt Swartz projects them to earn $1.9MM and $1MM, respectively. Davis will make $4.8MM in 2014 and has three club options for 2015 through 2017. Renck adds that the Rockies attempted to acquire Davis from the Rays multiple times prior to his inclusion in last winter's James Shields-Wil Myers blockbuster.

Fowler was hampered by multiple hand injuries in 2013 and he started just three games in September because of a knee injury. Fowler, who will make $7.35MM this season, posted a .263/.369/.407 slash line in 2013.

.369 OBP would look nice at the top of the line-up. How well do the Reds/Rockies match up?

[PepperJack]

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/11/rockies-talking-trade-with-angels-royals.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook



.369 OBP would look nice at the top of the line-up. How well do the Reds/Rockies match up?


I think that depends on if they have interest in BP.

[marcshoe]

I'd do Phillips/Hanigan for Fowler/LeMahieu.

[RedTeamGo!]

The Royals are talking about trading those bullpen arms to get down to $85 mil. I do not see how they would be interested in Phillips.

[thatcoolguy_22]

Rockies interested in moving Fowler for bullpen arms? How about Hoover/Heisey for Fowler. Hoover has value as a cheap cost controlled late inning reliever and Heisey provides a cheap stopgap for them in CF. If they want more throw in a low ceiling prospect with a couple tools.

Sounds lowball offer but Heisey put up a 1.2 WAR in only 244 AB's last year and Hoover is on the fast track to closer status.

[RedTeamGo!]

Ryan Hanigan's agent: "Very, very good chance" Hanigan will be traded and wrist, he's been rehabbing it, almost 100%. #RedSox #MLB #Reds

Any way we can get Jackie Bradley Jr out of them, or is that way too much?

[osuceltic]

Any way we can get Jackie Bradley Jr out of them, or is that way too much?

Jackie Bradley Sr. is more realistic.

[M2]

Any way we can get Jackie Bradley Jr out of them, or is that way too much?

I'd start off by asking for one of Bradley, Garin Cecchini or Mookie Betts. The Sox probably will insist they don't want to move any of those three, but the Reds probably have a healthy market for Hanigan. For the moment they can demand a high OB, rock solid defensive catcher is worth a hot prospect.

[lollipopcurve]

I'd start off by asking for one of Bradley, Garin Cecchini or Mookie Betts. The Sox probably will insist they don't want to move any of those three, but the Reds probably have a healthy market for Hanigan. For the moment they can demand a high OB, rock solid defensive catcher is worth a hot prospect.

I've been hoping for Betts. I doubt they could pry away Bradley or Cecchini. But with Pedroia at 2B, Betts may be possible. I'm afraid they'll settle for a lesser guy like Brian Johnson.

[mdccclxix]

I've been hoping for Betts. I doubt they could pry away Bradley or Cecchini. But with Pedroia at 2B, Betts may be possible. I'm afraid they'll settle for a lesser guy like Brian Johnson.

So Fangraphs is projecting Hanigan for 2+ WAR next year. How often can a team acquire an elite defensive catcher with 2 years of team control left that is only owed 2 million next year? Are we fans unaware of how valuable Hanigan potentially is?

EDIT: it's only one year of control

[PepperJack]

So Fangraphs is projecting Hanigan for 2+ WAR next year. How often can a team acquire an elite defensive catcher with 2 years of team control left that is only owed 2 million next year? Are we fans unaware of how valuable Hanigan potentially is?


I don't know what he will bring back in trade, I just know some of the jobs are being taken. Yankees, Rays, wherever Navarro goes.

I do know that if the Reds are going to trade a catcher, it should be the 34 year old who has just one year of team control, and value is entirely in his glove.

Mesoraco is nine years younger, was the personal catcher for Latos and Leake(I believe they managed to pitch okay)who also caught games from Arroyo(who didn't really skip a beat with Hani) and Cingrani. Who has upside in his bat.

[M2]

So Fangraphs is projecting Hanigan for 2+ WAR next year. How often can a team acquire an elite defensive catcher with 2 years of team control left that is only owed 2 million next year? Are we fans unaware of how valuable Hanigan potentially is?

It will be interesting to see how he shakes out. I assume bidders are waiting to see if the Reds tender him an offer. Once that happens, Walt might find he's a popular man during the winter meetings.

[mdccclxix]

It will be interesting to see how he shakes out. I assume bidders are waiting to see if the Reds tender him an offer. Once that happens, Walt might find he's a popular man during the winter meetings.

Oops, let me edit, he's only got one year of control, next year. Still, projecting a 2 million dollar catcher for 2 WAR is a ton of value for the right team.

[M2]

Oops, let me edit, he's only got one year of control, next year. Still, projecting a 2 million dollar catcher for 2 WAR is a ton of value for the right team.

And it's probably easy to buy another two years of that player if you're so inclined.

[osuceltic]

I'd start off by asking for one of Bradley, Garin Cecchini or Mookie Betts. The Sox probably will insist they don't want to move any of those three, but the Reds probably have a healthy market for Hanigan. For the moment they can demand a high OB, rock solid defensive catcher is worth a hot prospect.

I'd be shocked -- no, shocked isn't strong enough -- if any of those guys is even in the conversation. Hanigan is a 33-year-old catcher who put up this line in 2013: .198 /.306 /.261 /.567. He has appeared in more than 91 games exactly once in his career. He hit 5 homers and knocked in 40 runs in his career year. He's a good defensive catcher; not great, but good.

All this talk about statistically-savvy teams liking Hanigan is about one thing: value. They think he's a decent buy-low candidate. You don't give up prospects -- and all three of those guys are top-10 Sox prospects -- for guys like Hanigan. Even if he bounces back to a .700 OPS -- and considering age, his performance trends and everything we know about aging catchers, I think that's REALLY optimistic -- he's not worth one of those guys.

I think Hanigan either brings back an extraneous bench/bullpen piece or a minor-leaguer we're unlikely to ever see in a Reds uniform.

[corkedbat]

I'd be shocked -- no, shocked isn't strong enough -- if any of those guys is even in the conversation. Hanigan is a 33-year-old catcher who put up this line in 2013: .198 /.306 /.261 /.567. He has appeared in more than 91 games exactly once in his career. He hit 5 homers and knocked in 40 runs in his career year. He's a good defensive catcher; not great, but good.

All this talk about statistically-savvy teams liking Hanigan is about one thing: value. They think he's a decent buy-low candidate. You don't give up prospects -- and all three of those guys are top-10 Sox prospects -- for guys like Hanigan. Even if he bounces back to a .700 OPS -- and considering age, his performance trends and everything we know about aging catchers, I think that's REALLY optimistic -- he's not worth one of those guys.

I think Hanigan either brings back an extraneous bench/bullpen piece or a minor-leaguer we're unlikely to ever see in a Reds uniform.

I'd gladly "settle" for Bryce Brentz

[lollipopcurve]

I think Hanigan either brings back an extraneous bench/bullpen piece or a minor-leaguer we're unlikely to ever see in a Reds uniform.

I'm guessing some team coughs up a top 10 prospect, if Hanigan is dealt alone. He could also be packaged with Phillips. I doubt the Reds put him in a deal for a C return. B or better is my guess.

[RadfordVA]

I'd be shocked -- no, shocked isn't strong enough -- if any of those guys is even in the conversation. Hanigan is a 33-year-old catcher who put up this line in 2013: .198 /.306 /.261 /.567. He has appeared in more than 91 games exactly once in his career. He hit 5 homers and knocked in 40 runs in his career year. He's a good defensive catcher; not great, but good.

All this talk about statistically-savvy teams liking Hanigan is about one thing: value. They think he's a decent buy-low candidate. You don't give up prospects -- and all three of those guys are top-10 Sox prospects -- for guys like Hanigan. Even if he bounces back to a .700 OPS -- and considering age, his performance trends and everything we know about aging catchers, I think that's REALLY optimistic -- he's not worth one of those guys.

I think Hanigan either brings back an extraneous bench/bullpen piece or a minor-leaguer we're unlikely to ever see in a Reds uniform.

Also those teams who want a catcher like Hanigan could have landed Jose Molina. He got 2 years 4.5 million. They could have signed Molina and not given up anything else. So instead they are going to ship a top prospect and pay the same as Molina this season? Hard to believe. I have a feeling if Hanigan brings anything back of note it will have to be in a package with Phillips.

[Kc61]

I see the rumor that Reds have contacted Beltran. Doesn't say much for the Choo possibility.

I hate when the Reds take the guys the Cards decide not to re-sign.

[757690]

I see the rumor that Reds have contacted Beltran. Doesn't say much for the Choo possibility.

I hate when the Reds take the guys the Cards decide not to re-sign.

It hasn't happened, but if it does, it would be a much better and smarter signing than Peralta was with the Cards. The difference between Beltran and the Reds LF last year is greater than the difference between Peralta and Kozma. Plus it likely is a two year deal.

[M2]

I'd be shocked -- no, shocked isn't strong enough -- if any of those guys is even in the conversation.

If you don't ask, you don't get. Hanigan's name is popping up a lot as a potential catching solution for a lot of teams. He's starting to sound like plan A for the Red Sox.

There's no doubt the Reds can offload Hanigan. Right now the question is can they do better than that? I'm with lollipop in thinking they can.

[M2]

I'd gladly "settle" for Bryce Brentz

I actively dislike Brentz's game. He's a Nolan Reimold wannabe. Brandon Workman would be interesting.

[WrongVerb]

It's reported that Arroyo wants 3 years at $27M. Would it be such a bad thing for the Reds to explore re-signing him to a 2/$20M plus a 3rd year option with a big buyout (like $4M or so) that vests on innings pitched? Having Arroyo back in the fold would definitely add some flexibility to the pitching staff next year for sure.

[Benihana]

Keep an eye on Colorado. Wouldn't be shocked to see something built around Chapman for Fowler. Maybe some other names like Rutledge, Hanigan, and some prospects are thrown in.

[Joseph]

Keep an eye on Colorado. Wouldn't be shocked to see something built around Chapman for Fowler. Maybe some other names like Rutledge, Hanigan, and some prospects are thrown in.

Pure speculation or are there some rumblings?

[Benihana]

It's reported that Arroyo wants 3 years at $27M. Would it be such a bad thing for the Reds to explore re-signing him to a 2/$20M plus a 3rd year option with a big buyout (like $4M or so) that vests on innings pitched? Having Arroyo back in the fold would definitely add some flexibility to the pitching staff next year for sure.

Only if Bailey is traded for a masher.

Otherwise the money could be better spent on offense.

[WrongVerb]

Only if Bailey is traded for a masher.

Otherwise the money could be better spent on offense.

Bailey and Hanigan for Sano, Doumit and Dozier? Sign Beltran. Then maybe Phillips to NY for Nova if they don't re-sign Cano?

Man it's fun being a fantasy hot stove league owner. :cool:

[corkedbat]

It's reported that Arroyo wants 3 years at $27M. Would it be such a bad thing for the Reds to explore re-signing him to a 2/$20M plus a 3rd year option with a big buyout (like $4M or so) that vests on innings pitched? Having Arroyo back in the fold would definitely add some flexibility to the pitching staff next year for sure.

I wouldn't mind something like you suggest, especially if there's several million in deferred dollar included.

[Benihana]

Pure speculation or are there some rumblings?

Mainly speculation on my part. But educated speculation, if there is such a thing.

Rox are looking to trade Fowler for pitching, including a closer. Fowler is a guy that could flex between CF and LF and I know Walt has been interested...

[RedTeamGo!]

Mainly speculation on my part. But educated speculation, if there is such a thing.

Rox are looking to trade Fowler for pitching, including a closer. Fowler is a guy that could flex between CF and LF and I know Walt has been interested...

This sounds like complete speculation.

[klw]

Mainly speculation on my part. But educated speculation, if there is such a thing.

Rox are looking to trade Fowler for pitching, including a closer. Fowler is a guy that could flex between CF and LF and I know Walt has been interested...

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/11/rockies-talking-trade-with-angels-royals.html

After making strong plays for free agents Jose Dariel Abreu, Brian McCann, and Carlos Ruiz, the Rockies are searching hard for impact bat and relief help. The Rockies have talked with the Angels about slugger Mark Trumbo and called the Royals about their surplus of relievers, according to Troy E. Renck of the Denver Post.

Trumbo, of course, will be hard to pry away and has drawn interest from several clubs in need of a power bat. A deal with KC might be easier to swing, writes Renck, as Colorado's main trade piece, center fielder Dexter Fowler, could be a fit in Kansas City. Opposing execs have said for weeks that the Rockies are open to trading Fowler and they've already talked with Carlos Gonzalez about playing in center if necessary.

[WrongVerb]

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/11/rockies-talking-trade-with-angels-royals.html

After making strong plays for free agents Jose Dariel Abreu, Brian McCann, and Carlos Ruiz, the Rockies are searching hard for impact bat and relief help. The Rockies have talked with the Angels about slugger Mark Trumbo and called the Royals about their surplus of relievers, according to Troy E. Renck of the Denver Post.

Trumbo, of course, will be hard to pry away and has drawn interest from several clubs in need of a power bat. A deal with KC might be easier to swing, writes Renck, as Colorado's main trade piece, center fielder Dexter Fowler, could be a fit in Kansas City. Opposing execs have said for weeks that the Rockies are open to trading Fowler and they've already talked with Carlos Gonzalez about playing in center if necessary.

Fowler for Butler seems pretty obvious, doesn't it, with Butler going to 1b (probably the only position he could passably play)?

[corkedbat]

Fowler for Butler seems pretty obvious, doesn't it, with Butler going to 1b (probably the only position he could passably play)?

When they talked about Phillips possibly going to KC, Butler was one of the pieces that I'd consider. If they got him, I'd flip him to an AL team that needed a 1B/DH. I was thinking Texas at the time with Bailey for Profar and a young pitcher - that was before the Fielder deal though.

[WrongVerb]

When they talked about Phillips possibly going to KC, Butler was ohne of the pieces that I'd consider. If they got him, I'd flip him to an AL team that needed a 1B/DH. I was thinking Texas at the time with Bailey for Profar and a young pitcher - that was before the Fielder deal though.

Until the Fielder deal, I had thoughts along similar lines.

[LoganBuck]

Fowler for Butler seems pretty obvious, doesn't it, with Butler going to 1b (probably the only position he could passably play)?

Joey Votto during 2013 was a perennial Gold Glove handyman, compared to Butler in the field.

[757690]

Nolasco signed with the Twins. It will be interesting to learn the details of the contract. It will be a good baseline for what Arroyo can ask for.

[NeilHamburger]

Brendan Ryan just got 2 years and 5 million (along with a player option that can take the deal to 10 million over 3 years).

The money is just crazy in baseball now that all this tv revenue is running wild. We all are probably just going to have to get used to the figures.

[757690]

Nolasco got $52M over 4 years. Similar to Peralta. I'd much rather have Nolasco.

Edit: it now looks like it's 4 years, $49M. Less than Peralta'a.

[kpresidente]

Any thoughts on Stephen Drew? The other thread says he hasn't seen much interest, which could keep the price down. You could then shift Cozart to 2B if you trade Phillips, or just keep him on the bench and dump some of Heisey/Paul/Hannahan.

[mth123]

Any thoughts on Stephen Drew? The other thread says he hasn't seen much interest, which could keep the price down. You could then shift Cozart to 2B if you trade Phillips, or just keep him on the bench and dump some of Heisey/Paul/Hannahan.

He'd be an upgrade at 3 years for $25 Million or so. He probably gets twice that though with an added year.

[PepperJack]

Any thoughts on Stephen Drew? The other thread says he hasn't seen much interest, which could keep the price down. You could then shift Cozart to 2B if you trade Phillips, or just keep him on the bench and dump some of Heisey/Paul/Hannahan.


For the right price I would welcome Drew. I would hate to lose the draft pick, but I think I would rather lose it on him, than Granderson or Beltran.

I don't think the defense would suffer, and he could add 100+ OPS over Cozart.

[kpresidente]

Brendan Ryan just got 2 years and 5 million (along with a player option that can take the deal to 10 million over 3 years).

The money is just crazy in baseball now that all this tv revenue is running wild. We all are probably just going to have to get used to the figures.

I don't think that's a bad deal. He would be the best defensive shortstop in the game if it weren't for that freak in Atlanta.

[Joseph]

Ryan is a throw back, all glove, no stick. Not sure this offense can hide that though unless the likes of Mes and whomever is in LF step up this season.

[corkedbat]

If the Reds do deal a starter, I wouldn't mind seeing them bring Brad Penny to camp with the promise of an incentive-laden contract if he makes the team. Not saying I'd necessarily bring him in as a starter. If he's not able to go 6 or 7 innings I could see him coming out of the pen. Certainly wouldn't invest much, but I'd kick the tires.

[Benihana]

Are the stars aligning for the Reds to sign Curtis Granderson?

Choo looks to be too expensive
Yankees look to be hot after Beltran
The Cubs could sign Ellsbury
The Red Sox could trade for Kemp
The White Sox are likely done with big money FA after Abreu
Detroit has Jackson, Cleveland has Bourn, Milwaukee has Gomez, St Louis has Bourjois, Pittsburgh has McCutchen, and Minnesota just made their big splash in FA.

Granderson is a Midwesterner that wants to play closer to home in Chicago. He could play CF (certainly better than Choo or Beltran) for another year or two before switching to LF. He is a power hitter who could slot nicely between Votto and Bruce, or in the 1 or 2 hole depending on team needs. Maybe he is the guy for us?

[corkedbat]

Are the stars aligning for the Reds to sign Curtis Granderson?

Choo looks to be too expensive
Yankees look to be hot after Beltran
The Cubs could sign Ellsbury
The Red Sox could trade for Kemp
The White Sox are likely done with big money FA after Abreu
Detroit has Jackson, Cleveland has Bourn, Milwaukee has Gomez, St Louis has Bourjois, Pittsburgh has McCutchen, and Minnesota just made their big splash in FA.

Granderson is a Midwesterner that wants to play closer to home in Chicago. He could play CF (certainly better than Choo or Beltran) for another year or two before switching to LF. He is a power hitter who could slot nicely between Votto and Bruce, or in the 1 or 2 hole depending on team needs. Maybe he is the guy for us?

He also would cost a 1st round pick, IIRC

[Joseph]

He also would cost a 1st round pick, IIRC

He would, but again it would be a wash once we gain the pick for Choo.

[757690]

He would, but again it would be a wash once we gain the pick for Choo.

Not exactly.

Right now, the Reds would be picking 20th in the first round, plus they have a pick for Choo, somewhere in the 35th pick range, if he signs elsewhere. So if the Reds sign Granderson and not Choo, they lose around 15 spots in the draft. This years draft is supposed to be very deep, so that could be a very big deal. Btw, if more players with qualifying offers sign with clubs without protected first round picks, it would mean the Reds first pick could drop all the way to the 10th pick overall. Losing next years first round pick should not be taken lightly.

[Joseph]

I appreciate it could be a highly valuable pick. But we are talking someone who could help now and for the next couple years vs someone who MIGHT make the bigs in a few years.

I love prospects, its fun to speculate, but as the old saying goes, a bird in the hand.....

[UPRedsFan]

Of the teams Benihana listed, you forgot Texas. They said they're still looking for a bat.

Guessing they'll go after Granderson if they don't get Choo.

[mdccclxix]

Not exactly.

Right now, the Reds would be picking 20th in the first round, plus they have a pick for Choo, somewhere in the 35th pick range, if he signs elsewhere. So if the Reds sign Granderson and not Choo, they lose around 15 spots in the draft. This years draft is supposed to be very deep, so that could be a very big deal. Btw, if more players with qualifying offers sign with clubs without protected first round picks, it would mean the Reds first pick could drop all the way to the 10th pick overall. Losing next years first round pick should not be taken lightly.

The first 11 picks are protected this year. Their choo pick will end up being 32nd or 33rd I think.

[badcontent]

I've come to the conclusion that the Reds should just re-sign Choo.

Move Phillips if that's what's required to make it happen financially.

[PepperJack]

I really hope the Reds keep their draft picks. Meaning sign Choo, or go with a grouping of trades and smaller free agents to build next year's team.

The Reds have worked to rebuild the farm, and the drafting of Stephenson, Winker, Ervin, Travieso, Mejias-Brean, and others have helped. I hope they continue that, in what is expected to be a strong draft class next year.

I wouldn't let the deep class make me think " well we can still get somebody good at pick 30 or so", instead, I would think "let's get two top talents, and really replenish the system"

[kpresidente]

So if the Reds sign Granderson and not Choo, they lose around 15 spots in the draft. This years draft is supposed to be very deep, so that could be a very big deal.

If the draft is deep, wouldn't that make it less of a big deal? A deep draft means you can get nearly just as good a player later on.

[kpresidente]

Just a thought, but if the FA market is at all efficient, then losing a draft pick should drive down the cost of any free agent that was given a QO by an equivalent amount, since each bidding team presumably values their draft picks more or less equally. It follows that losing a draft pick shouldn't factor too much into the decision to pursue a particular FA, unless the team has some particular reason why they need the pick more than anybody else.

[Joseph]

Best player available should apply year 'round, not just at draft time.

[RadfordVA]

If the Reds do deal a starter, I wouldn't mind seeing them bring Brad Penny to camp with the promise of an incentive-laden contract if he makes the team. Not saying I'd necessarily bring him in as a starter. If he's not able to go 6 or 7 innings I could see him coming out of the pen. Certainly wouldn't invest much, but I'd kick the tires.

If Brad Penny is able to comeback and contribute anything to a MLB team at this point it would be one of the best comeback stories I remember. His last two seasons he was all the way down to averaging only 3.5 k/9. He was almost walking more batters than striking them out! Then he misses all of 2013. Would be shocked if he comes back from all that.

[757690]

If the draft is deep, wouldn't that make it less of a big deal? A deep draft means you can get nearly just as good a player later on.

Good point. But I guess it depends on how deep a draft is. Most drafts have around 5 solid prospects, a good one will have around 10, and a deep one will have around 20. Rarely is a draft 30+deep with solid picks.

If this was a normal draft, there probably wouldn't be a big difference between pick #20 and #32. A deep draft could mean a big difference between those two picks.

[PepperJack]

Best player available should apply year 'round, not just at draft time.


That's easier said than done, like when the Yankees are giving up pick 18, and it's cost of 2-2.5 million slot money, to sign McCann for 85-100 million dollar contract.

The Reds would be losing 2+ million dollars of their draft pool to sign Granderson, or another player that received a QO, plus paying them 60+ million dollars.

[Benihana]

I really hope the Reds keep their draft picks. Meaning sign Choo, or go with a grouping of trades and smaller free agents to build next year's team.

The Reds have worked to rebuild the farm, and the drafting of Stephenson, Winker, Ervin, Travieso, Mejias-Brean, and others have helped. I hope they continue that, in what is expected to be a strong draft class next year.

I wouldn't let the deep class make me think " well we can still get somebody good at pick 30 or so", instead, I would think "let's get two top talents, and really replenish the system"

You do realize they only get two picks if they let Choo go AND don't replace him with a (qualified) FA. If they re-sign Choo, they only get one "premium talent" draft pick anyway.

[PepperJack]

You do realize they only get two picks if they let Choo go AND don't replace him with a (qualified) FA. If they re-sign Choo, they only get one "premium talent" draft pick anyway.


I obviously do, that's why I said
or go with a grouping of trades and smaller free agents to build next year's team.


If they can resign Choo, they will have a premium talent AND a top 20 or so pick. If not, then they can have TWO of the top 36 picks.

Sorry that wasn't clearer in my first post.

[WrongVerb]

Vogelsong re-signs with the Giants. Nolasco signs with the Twins. Arroyo still out there waiting, unless I missed something.

I'd still like to see the Reds re-sign Arroyo to a 2/20 contract. It would give them great insurance and flexibility.

[OneManBand]

Vogelsong re-signs with the Giants. Nolasco signs with the Twins. Arroyo still out there waiting, unless I missed something.

I'd still like to see the Reds re-sign Arroyo to a 2/20 contract. It would give them great insurance and flexibility.

I think Hughes signs before Arroyo. Seems like Arroyo might think he's worth we'll more then his actual value. He might be lucky to get 10 million at this point

[corkedbat]

I think Hughes signs before Arroyo. Seems like Arroyo might think he's worth we'll more then his actual value. He might be lucky to get 10 million at this point

I'd give Bronson 2 yrs/$20M and maybe an option for a 3rd year with a decent buyout. Two stipulations - at least one-third of the deal is deferred and there is no no-trade - he does have 10/5 I guess, but I'd insist he make up a list of 10-12 teams for whom he would not block.

[lollipopcurve]

but I'd insist he make up a list of 10-12 teams for whom he would not block.

MLBPA wouldn't approve that contract. I don't think teams can monkey with the 10-5 thing.

[Kc61]

Vogelsong re-signs with the Giants. Nolasco signs with the Twins. Arroyo still out there waiting, unless I missed something.

I'd still like to see the Reds re-sign Arroyo to a 2/20 contract. It would give them great insurance and flexibility.

Reds have six potential starters lined up for next season. Bailey, Latos, Cueto, Cingrani, Chapman, Leake.

Even if one of them is traded, or Chapman closes, Reds still have five starters.

I would like to see the Reds sign a modestly priced starter as a backup who can pitch in AAA or in the pen. As insurance/depth.

Personally, just my opinion, no way would I even consider giving Arroyo or anyone else a $20 million commitment to provide starting pitching depth or flexibility. If the Reds have that money hanging around, use it for position players and maybe, if necessary, a small piece to replace Chapman in the pen.

[Captain Hook]

Reds have six potential starters lined up for next season. Bailey, Latos, Cueto, Cingrani, Chapman, Leake.

Even if one of them is traded, or Chapman closes, Reds still have five starters.

I would like to see the Reds sign a modestly priced starter as a backup who can pitch in AAA or in the pen. As insurance/depth.

Personally, just my opinion, no way would I even consider giving Arroyo or anyone else a $20 million commitment to provide starting pitching depth or flexibility. If the Reds have that money hanging around, use it for position players and maybe, if necessary, a small piece to replace Chapman in the pen.

If the Reds decide to commit money to a starter other than Bailey or Latos I'll be disappointed. I know it's generally thought that the Reds won't be able to sign Homer but I'd like them to have the money to try.

[RedEye]

If the Reds decide to commit money to a starter other than Bailey or Latos I'll be disappointed. I know it's generally thought that the Reds won't be able to sign Homer but I'd like them to have the money to try.

Absolutely agreed. Any extra cash at this point needs to either go toward an extension for Bailey/Latos or a replacement for Choo (if they can't sign the man himself).

[Tom Servo]

According to the Star Tribune's La Velle E. Neal, the Twins and Phil Hughes have come to terms on a three-year, $24 million contract.

Good God. I thought the days of multi-year, multi-million dollar contracts for middling starters with 5.00+ ERAs died with the Adam Eatons, Jaret Wrights, and Carlos Silvas of the mid 00s, but I guess not.

[corkedbat]

If the Reds decide to commit money to a starter other than Bailey or Latos I'll be disappointed. I know it's generally thought that the Reds won't be able to sign Homer but I'd like them to have the money to try.

What would lead you to believe they haven't tried yet.

[Captain Hook]

What would lead you to believe they haven't tried yet.

I believe they've tried but that doesn't mean they can't keep trying.

[klw]

I believe they've tried but that doesn't mean they can't keep trying.

http://www.voidport.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/sisyphus1.gif

[klw]

ESPN trade proposal:
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/42646/lets-have-some-fun-three-team-trade-ideas

Indians, Orioles, Reds

Bailey

Indians: Trade Asdrubal Cabrera, Joe Wendle, acquire Homer Bailey

Orioles: Trade Bud Norris, Mike Wright, acquire Cabrera

Reds: Trade Bailey, acquire Norris, Wright, Wendle

This one lines up like this: The Indians need a starting pitcher with Ubaldo Jimenez and Scott Kazmir likely departing as free agents, the Orioles need a second baseman, and the Reds may want to get something for Bailey as he enters his walk year.

The Orioles would slide Cabrera over to second base and hope he rebounds from a subpar 2013. The Indians get Bailey while throwing in second-base prospect Wendle, who hit .295 with some power in Class A. Wendle was old for the league, but scouts like his bat. The Reds give up the best player in the deal, but would still have a strong rotation with Johnny Cueto, Mat Latos, Mike Leake, Tony Cingrani and Norris (with Aroldis Chapman still a possibility with Bryan Price replacing Dusty Baker as manager). Moving back to the National League should help Norris; he has two years remaining until free agency and will cost about $5 million less than Bailey in 2014, money the Reds can spend elsewhere, maybe on an outfielder. Wright is a back-end rotation prospect and Wendle could replace Brandon Phillips down the road.

A "no" from me though Norris is better than I remember his being.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/30369/bud-norris

[757690]

ESPN trade proposal:
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/42646/lets-have-some-fun-three-team-trade-ideas


A "no" from me though Norris is better than I remember his being.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/30369/bud-norris

As usual, ESPN assumes Cincinnati is a crappy team, so they should be glad to get crappy players.

[Joseph]

Not a fan of that deal at all no.

[NeilHamburger]

Just a horrible trade. Why not trade Jay Bruce to the Yankees for an old piece of bubble gum and a used jock strap while we're at it?

[757690]

ESPN trade proposal:
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/42646/lets-have-some-fun-three-team-trade-ideas


A "no" from me though Norris is better than I remember his being.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/30369/bud-norris

Pretty much all the trades proposed in that article are absurd. The writer should stick to editing, his main job.

[WrongVerb]

I'm intrigued, although Bailey for Asdrubal and Norris makes more sense.

Edit: OK, yeah...no. Just looked at Asdrubal's numbers from last year. They're Cozart-esque. I take it back what I said...I wouldn't do that trade.

[WVRedsFan]

There is probably no way I trade Homer Bailey for anything but a premium bat, which means I do not trade him. Two years ago, I would have traded him for an infield vet and a Thanksgiving turkey (see the history of the Pirates trading Bob Purkey to the Reds for you history buffs), but not now. JMO.

[redsmetz]

Bringing this piece over from the non-discussion thread, for a comment:

ESPN's Buster Olney reports that the Yankees and Robinson Cano "remain roughly $80 million apart" in contract talks.

Olney says Cano has asked for a nine-year, $252 million deal that would include a vesting option for a 10th season. The Yankees then countered with an offer in the $170 million range. Obviously, there's a ton of ground to be made up here, but it's still relatively early in the offseason. Yankees president Randy Levine told ESPNNewYork.com last week that the two sides "have nothing to talk about" unless Cano "gets a little more realistic."

I've long been an advocate for players making what the market will bear. I'm keenly aware that the pendulum was held over towards the owner's side for the vast majority of their being professional baseball. And this comment isn't really about the pendulum swing back.

But I have to wonder at what point some player will finally just say something akin to "I'm making tons of money and lets get a deal done" - The difference here, $82MM, is definitely real money, but if you figure his life span is likely another 40 years or so from retiring, he'll still have a lot of coin to live off of for many years and that's without factoring in income earned from all that cash.

Just my thoughts on the question. Again, I'm not questioning a player being able to earn the maximum dollar, but I wonder if we're not reaching the point where "enough is enough."

[WrongVerb]

But I have to wonder at what point some player will finally just say something akin to "I'm making tons of money and lets get a deal done" - The difference here, $82MM, is definitely real money, but if you figure his life span is likely another 40 years or so from retiring, he'll still have a lot of coin to live off of for many years and that's without factoring in income earned from all that cash.

Just my thoughts on the question. Again, I'm not questioning a player being able to earn the maximum dollar, but I wonder if we're not reaching the point where "enough is enough."

I not only see your point, but kind of agree with you. However, players that get to the point where they can demand that kind of money didn't get there by having a "that's enough" mentality. These are players that push for the maximum they can get out of their bodies, so why shouldn't that thought process carry over to other parts of their lives?

[klw]

The problems for Cano are that there is not yet a second perceived suitor who might steal him away from the Yankees if the price is not met and the longer he drags this on and the higher the figure goes the more it would damage his marketability for secondary revenue streams. If he comes off bad in this negotiation (which I think he already has done) and has the perceived burden of living up to the $, it will damage his reputation with fans and make him less marketable for endorsements. He may end up making more in the long term by taking a little less now.

While Votto is facing the burden of living up to the contract, there were never any leaks about contract demands or statements about his self perceived worth which drew attention to him.

[OneManBand]

In regards to Cano.. Wonder how long he hangs on to JayZ if he doesn't sign soon

[OneManBand]

Also in regards to players being tendered or non tendered and the deadline being today... Guessing Hanigan doesn't get traded.. Looks as if he'd end up just being non tendered.

[RedTeamGo!]

9:02am: Navarro's contract is pending a physical and will guarantee him $8MM over two years, according to Rosenthal (on Twitter).

8:32am: The Blue Jays have reached an agreement with catcher Dioner Navarro on a two-year deal, according to Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports (on Twitter). Navarro is a client of Melvin Roman's MDR Sports Management.

After hitting .207/.267/.311 from 2009-11, Navarro put himself back on the map with a respectable showing with the Reds in 2012, but his .755 OPS that season came in a sample of just 74 plate appearances. It wasn't until this past season with the Cubs that Navarro proved he can still hit at the Major League level in a big way. In 266 plate appearances with the Cubs, Navarro slashed .300/.365/.492 with 13 home runs.

I take this as Walt's asking price for Hanigan was too high and as a result he may get stuck with 3 catchers. Fantastic.

[PepperJack]

Also in regards to players being tendered or non tendered and the deadline being today... Guessing Hanigan doesn't get traded.. Looks as if he'd end up just being non tendered.


They still have plenty of time to trade him. Some teams are likely playing hard ball, wait to see if the Reds would just non tender him. Once they see the Reds won't do that, then they can talk more at the winter meetings.

[LoganBuck]

I take this as Walt's asking price for Hanigan was too high and as a result he may get stuck with 3 catchers. Fantastic.

Not at all. Navarro is an offensive guy. The Blue Jays have a defensive type in Thole. The Blue Jays are a little like the Reds in that they need to change the mix of guys. Too many similar bats in the same lineup.

[corkedbat]

Also in regards to players being tendered or non tendered and the deadline being today... Guessing Hanigan doesn't get traded.. Looks as if he'd end up just being non tendered.

I'd say there's at least minmal trade value for Hanigan. I'd say they tender him and still deal him.

[Larkin88]

I take this as Walt's asking price for Hanigan was too high and as a result he may get stuck with 3 catchers. Fantastic.

Not sure I'm ready to agree with that quite yet. Hanigan is a bit of a different animal than Navarro. At least as far as the Blue Jays are concerned, I think they're looking to add a bat to improve their .190/.235/.335 slashline from the catcher's position last year.

Hanigan would not have demonstrably helped the Blue Jays in that area. If he is traded, it will be to a team who is hoping to secure better defense behind the dish.

[Kc61]

Also Willie Bloomquist signs with Mariners. Big day for ex-Reds.

I think there is like a one percent chance the Reds go with three catchers next season. Hanigan will go. Maybe price will be a lesser prospect than Walt anticipated.

Navarro really did well with his late season showing in Cincy and his part time stint with the Cubs. Nice contract for him.

[757690]

Also Willie Bloomquist signs with Mariners. Big day for ex-Reds.

I think there is like a one percent chance the Reds go with three catchers next season. Hanigan will go. Maybe price will be a lesser prospect than Walt anticipated.

Navarro really did well with his late season showing in Cincy and his part time stint with the Cubs. Nice contract for him.

Dave Cameron's head explodes with the Bloomquist signing, lol.

[WrongVerb]

How in the world does Kazmir get 2/22, from the A's no less? Wow!

:eek:

[mdccclxix]

DiGiovanna adds that the Angels are expected to clear more than $10MM in payroll by non-tendering Tommy Hanson, Jerome Williams and Chris Nelson, which should allow them to pursue a free agent starting pitcher (Twitter links). DiGiovanna also mentions that Kevin Jepsen's status is still up in the air at this time and there's no decision on whether or not to tender him a contract.

Tommy Hanson and Jerome Williams strike me as good 5th starter pickups. I'll be curious to see where they land.

[Patrick Bateman]

I take this as Walt's asking price for Hanigan was too high and as a result he may get stuck with 3 catchers. Fantastic.

Were you literally expecting that Navarro was not going to be signed by anyone??

[LoganBuck]

How in the world does Kazmir get 2/22, from the A's no less? Wow!

:eek:

This is why the narrative that, "Brandon Phillips is overpaid, and no one will take him", is ridiculous. The Orioles are supposedly considering nontendering Jim Johnson because his arbitration number will be north of $10M. Look at what Navarro, Bloomquist, and Kazmir got today. Yikes.

[redsmetz]

Also in regards to players being tendered or non tendered and the deadline being today... Guessing Hanigan doesn't get traded.. Looks as if he'd end up just being non tendered.

The Reds won't have to non-tender him (and likely won't). They won't need to exchange arbitration numbers until January. There's still time to work out a trade, not to mention agree to a deal for next year.

[Gallen5862]

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/09/30/daniel-bard-what-went-wrong-with-red-sox-and-what-ahead-for-him-with-cubs/3x7cUBt2feac6GBvXE5SMN/story.html

Deconstructing Daniel Bard’s rise, fall with Red Sox

PITTSBURGH — He figures he may have listened too intently, followed orders to a T — perhaps the reason his Red Sox career took that U-turn to nowhere. Or maybe there were too many messengers with too many messages, well-intentioned advice that only scrambled his head, his focus, messed up his game.

Whatever happened to Daniel Bard, not long ago one of Major League Baseball’s most dominating late-inning forces, he is getting the chance to fix it now. Picked up by the Chicago Cubs when the Red Sox finally cut him free last month, he is feeling good once again. Strong. Not unlike, he says, how he felt in March with Boston — back to being “pretty close” to the pitcher he wanted to be, a far cry from the disaster of 2011.

But his gains were not quite enough. “I found out with two days left in spring training that [the Red Sox] were going to send me back to the minors to keep working on some stuff, and that was kind of tough to hear.”

So continued the de-evolution of Daniel Bard, 28, once a prized first-round draft pick with a 100-mile-an-hour fastball and devilish slider, a mesmerizing combination that American League hitters could barely touch for much of 2009, 2010, and 2011.




The genesis of Bard’s most recent struggles began with a mutual decision, on behalf of Bard and Sox management before the 2012 season, to turn one of the game’s premier setup men into a starting pitcher.

“It was a group idea. I was totally on board, and I don’t think it was a bad idea in itself,” he recalled. “I think what was not good about it was the way we did it.’’


Earnest, polite, eager to learn and to succeed, Bard believes much of what went wrong can be attributed to too much advice, his mechanics and overall game a victim of what he refers to as “tinkering’’ by a number of Red Sox coaches over the years and especially last year’s manager, Bobby Valentine.

[Gallen5862]

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

National League Non-Tenders

By Steve Adams [December 2 at 2:15pm CST]

Major League clubs have until 11pm CT tonight to tender contracts to players for the 2014 season. We'll run down the list of National League non-tenders here. Remember that you can track all of the action using MLBTR's Non-Tender tracker, and we offer a full list of non-tender candidates as well. Also of use will be our Arbitration Eligibles series, which includes Matt Swartz's projected 2014 salaries for all arbitration eligible players.

The Cubs will non-tender right-hander Daniel Bard, tweets Jesse Rogers of ESPN Chicago. Bard was claimed off waivers in September and never threw a pitch for the Cubs organization. WEEI.com's Rob Bradford notes that Bard was pitching in the Puerto Rican Winter League but walked nine batters while recording just one out. The Cubs could still agree to a non-roster deal with Bard, he adds. Bard's control has vanished into thin air, as the formerly dominant setup man has also walked 56 batters over his past 47 1/3 minor league frames.

The Mets have informed shortstop Omar Quintanilla that he will be non-tendered, Quintanilla told Jorge Castillo of the Star-Ledger. Quintanilla projected to earn $900K this offseason after batting .222/.306/.283 in a career-high 359 plate appearances last season.

ESPN's Adam Rubin tweets that the Mets will also non-tender Scott Atchison. The right-hander projected to earn $1.3MM coming off a 4.37 ERA with 5.6 K/9 and 2.4 BB/9 in 45 1/3 innings. Atchison will turn 38 in late March.

[Gallen5862]

Daniel Baird might be worth a look. Maybe Price can get him back on track.

[mdccclxix]

Scott Boras is known to be willing to wait until late January (see: Prince Fielder) and even February (see: Michael Bourn) to find the right deal for his clients, but that may not be necessary with Jacoby Ellsbury. Clubs have told ESPN's Jayson Stark that talks for Ellsbury are moving much quicker than had been anticipated, and Stark says a signing as soon as next week's Winter Meetings isn't out of the question (Twitter link).

This would be a smart move for Ellsbury, he needs to get the early money to get the most. His injury history and SB totals are problematic, IMO, and he could be like Bourn or Madson and get left out last.

[[deleted]]

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/12/nationals-acquire-doug-fister-from-tigers.html

Absolute steal for Washington. Damn.

[mth123]

;3009734']http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/12/nationals-acquire-doug-fister-from-tigers.html

Absolute steal for Washington. Damn.

Makes you wonder what kind of return the Reds could get for Mike Leake. From the looks of this, not much.

[RedEye]

Makes you wonder what kind of return the Reds could get for Mike Leake. From the looks of this, not much.

Fister is more valuable than Leake, IMO. So yeah, I don't think they'd be able to do much better than this deal.

[757690]

Makes you wonder what kind of return the Reds could get for Mike Leake. From the looks of this, not much.

Fister is four years older, and been pitching in a pitchers park his whole career. I think teams would much rather have a guy entering his prime who has been successful pitching in a homer dome than a guy entering his 30's, whose pitched in grand canyons of stadiums his career.

[mth123]

Fister is four years older, and been pitching in a pitchers park his whole career. I think teams would much rather have a guy entering his prime who has been successful pitching in a homer dome than a guy entering his 30's, whose pitched in grand canyons of stadiums his career.

They both have 2 years of arbitration encumbered control remaining. Anyone dealing for them is dealing for those two years. For two years, the more established Fister is more desirable IMO.

[757690]

They both have 2 years of arbitration encumbered control remaining. Anyone dealing for them is dealing for those two years. For two years, the more established Fister is more desirable IMO.

I really like Fister, and he's definitely been better than Leake over the last 3 years. However...

More established means more miles on the arm, more likely to decline. If I'm a GM, I'm trying to dump nearly every pitcher on the staff before he hits 30, and acquiring every good one that's about to turn 26-27.

[RedTeamGo!]

I have a feeling DD isnt done. Bet he flips lombardozzi and krol.

[mdccclxix]

The Tigers reportedly wanted fellow young hurler Taylor Jordan in the deal, according to a tweet from Jeff Passan of Yahoo Sports, but the Nats refused to include him. Before acquiring Ian Kinsler, Detroit was offered Howie Kendrick from the Angels in a deal that would have included Fister, MLB.com's Alden Gonzalez tweets, but declined that option.

Leake for Kendrick anyone?

[mth123]

Leake for Kendrick anyone?

Yes.

[Strike3Called]

Nats get Fister for virtually nothing. Wow.