Things Getting Ugly in Tallahassee

[MWM]

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/10009077/dna-analysis-matches-jameis-winston-accuser

Hopefully, all the facts will come out eventually, but if some of the things that are being reported are true, then this could wind up getting really ugly. I hope some of these things wind up not proving to be true. If they are, then the Tallahassee police should be ashamed of themselves.

[The Operator]

Sounds like we've got a little Ben Roethlisberger on our hands...

[jojo]

Its already ugly.

I think it boils down to a "he said/she said" situation except apparently the "he" has a witness that appears willing to support the implied "he" version that contact was consensual (i'm not sure Winston has even formally given police any statement so I'm assuming that would be the position Winston's lawyer indicates).

Given the nature of the allegations, I could understand why a detective would caution a victim, in essence asking her, "Are you willing to endure this?" because her testimony is likely going to make up the bulk of the evidence and the bulk of the case and it was apparent that Winston had already lawyered up. Without her fortitude, the police and the prosecutor have very little and any attempts to collect other evidence were clearly going to take alot of effort. So I'm not willing to throw the police under the bus. But in a vacuum, it sure doesn't come off as sympathetic if the family's characterization of the "warning" is correct. But again, they have one prism filtering their interpretation which is obviously going to paint things in a way that advocates for their daughter in the strongest possible way.

Given the very, very few "facts" that have been leaked, this seems like the type of rape case that is the worst case scenario concerning trying to get a conviction. Then of course, Winston could also be completely innocent.

It's ugly.

[New York Red]

Nevermind whether Winston is guilty or not, what kind of joke is this police department? The girl gave them a specific name and they never even interviewed him? Wow. I'm guessing that isn't "standard procedure" for police departments investigating rape allegations.

[Yachtzee]

Its already ugly.

I think it boils down to a "he said/she said" situation except apparently the "he" has a witness that appears willing to support the implied "he" version that contact was consensual (i'm not sure Winston has even formally given police any statement so I'm assuming that would be the position Winston's lawyer indicates).

Given the nature of the allegations, I could understand why a detective would caution a victim, in essence asking her, "Are you willing to endure this?" because her testimony is likely going to make up the bulk of the evidence and the bulk of the case and it was apparent that Winston had already lawyered up. Without her fortitude, the police and the prosecutor have very little and any attempts to collect other evidence were clearly going to take alot of effort. So I'm not willing to throw the police under the bus. But in a vacuum, it sure doesn't come off as sympathetic if the family's characterization of the "warning" is correct. But again, they have one prism filtering their interpretation which is obviously going to paint things in a way that advocates for their daughter in the strongest possible way.

Given the very, very few "facts" that have been leaked, this seems like the type of rape case that is the worst case scenario concerning trying to get a conviction. Then of course, Winston could also be completely innocent.

It's ugly.

I find it amazing that the detective was warning the victim against going forward. From my experience, most detectives take the initial statement, gather the evidence and send it on to the prosecutor. It's the prosector's job to determine whether the evidence is sufficient to go forward and to speak with the victim about the prudence of taking it to trial.

[dabvu2498]

The initial police report also says the assailant was 5'9"-5'11". Winston is 6'4".

http://tmz.vo.llnwd.net/o28/newsdesk/tmz_documents/1113-Jameis-Winston.pdf

[New York Red]

The initial police report also says the assailant was 5'9"-5'11". Winston is 6'4".

http://tmz.vo.llnwd.net/o28/newsdesk/tmz_documents/1113-Jameis-Winston.pdf
I went on a blind date recently, set up through mutual friends. After spending about four hours together, dinner, movie, etc. I dropped her off at her car. We talked on the phone as we drove home and she asked how tall I was, because she thought I was tall (I'm only 6'1"). I asked her how tall she thought I was. Her guess was off by 3 or 4 inches.

A rape victim not being able to accurately guess the height of her attacker is probably way down the list of things police should be worried about. Especially when she specifically named him and his DNA is found on her panties. I'm assuming the situation a few months ago at Vandy was handled a bit differently than how the TPD handled this Jameis Winston case?

[bucksfan2]

I went on a blind date recently, set up through mutual friends. After spending about four hours together, dinner, movie, etc. I dropped her off at her car. We talked on the phone as we drove home and she asked how tall I was, because she thought I was tall (I'm only 6'1"). I asked her how tall she thought I was. Her guess was off by 3 or 4 inches.

A rape victim not being able to accurately guess the height of her attacker is probably way down the list of things police should be worried about. Especially when she specifically named him and his DNA is found on her panties. I'm assuming the situation a few months ago at Vandy was handled a bit differently than how the TPD handled this Jameis Winston case?

I really don't know what to think about this. When the reports first surfaced about a week ago I thought this case going to the state attorney's office was a ploy because Winston was famous. But the more details that come out, it is looking worse and worse on both Winston and FSU.

If the woman claimed she was raped, and the police had her underwear wouldn't they have don't a rape kit as well? Its unfortunate but I can buy into the Tallahassee police "telling" her that she doesn't want to proceed with charges. I don't think any program should make snap decisions (see Dez Wells) but things are getting worse for Jamis.

[jojo]

I really don't know what to think about this. When the reports first surfaced about a week ago I thought this case going to the state attorney's office was a ploy because Winston was famous. But the more details that come out, it is looking worse and worse on both Winston and FSU.

If the woman claimed she was raped, and the police had her underwear wouldn't they have don't a rape kit as well? Its unfortunate but I can buy into the Tallahassee police "telling" her that she doesn't want to proceed with charges. I don't think any program should make snap decisions (see Dez Wells) but things are getting worse for Jamis.

Right now we have an anonymous accuser claiming she was raped, a garment belonging to the victim that has Winston's DNA on it (we know this because the police collected a sexual assault kit the day that the incident was reported and Winston volunteered a sample of his DAN last week), a denial by Winston that there was a rape, and affidavids from two people who were with the alledged victim and Winston who don't corroborate the victim's story in sworn statements.

The police have the accuser's testimony and evidence collected during a rape kit. The accuser also quit cooperating in February essentially making it much harder to effectively investigate especially since they had to contact Winston through a lawyer. That DNA matched really isn't even a major issue. If Winston didn't deny sexual contact and affidavids suggest a consensual situation, it most likely comes down to whether there were any injuries observed suggested of rape. Apparently the accuser wasn't legally intoxicated given the letter from the family so there isn't even that potential issue of consent.

If the above is accurate, then this is a "he said/she said" situation where the accuser quit cooperating and the accused retained a lawyer almost instantly. Even if Winston would be indicted, this is probably the worst case scenario in terms of trying to get a conviction.

The Tallahassee police look bad but they really had zero to propel this case from February on while the accused apparently had witnesses casting doubt on the facts. I think any marks/injuries is going to be a key issue. I also don't buy for a second that Winston's room mate witnessed a rape and police refused to interview him. I could be wrong, but that assertion really needs to be proven.

[bucksfan2]

Right now we have an anonymous accuser claiming she was raped, a garment belonging to the victim that has Winston's DNA on it (we know this because the police collected a sexual assault kit the day that the incident was reported and Winston volunteered a sample of his DAN last week), a denial by Winston that there was a rape, and affidavids from two people who were with the alledged victim and Winston who don't corroborate the victim's story in sworn statements.

The police have the accuser's testimony and evidence collected during a rape kit. The accuser also quit cooperating in February essentially making it much harder to effectively investigate especially since they had to contact Winston through a lawyer. That DNA matched really isn't even a major issue. If Winston didn't deny sexual contact and affidavids suggest a consensual situation, it most likely comes down to whether there were any injuries observed suggested of rape. Apparently the accuser wasn't legally intoxicated given the letter from the family so there isn't even that potential issue of consent.

If the above is accurate, then this is a "he said/she said" situation where the accuser quit cooperating and the accused retained a lawyer almost instantly. Even if Winston would be indicted, this is probably the worst case scenario in terms of trying to get a conviction.

The Tallahassee police look bad but they really had zero to propel this case from February on while the accused apparently had witnesses casting doubt on the facts. I think any marks/injuries is going to be a key issue. I also don't buy for a second that Winston's room mate witnessed a rape and police refused to interview him. I could be wrong, but that assertion really needs to be proven.

I don't know what is collected in a rape kit. If one was done, then I would imagine that bruises, marks and or injuries would have been noted.

If the police coerced this woman to drop the case then we have a much larger issue at hand. If the police told her she doesn't want to press charges then we have a much larger issue at hand.

Finally, when I lived in the doors and a roommate of mine was in there with a girl I stayed out. If Winston's roommate(s) witnessed what was going on that would also raise some alarms with me. Why was in in there watching? Was something else going on? If he wasn't in the room then all he can say is the two entered the room consensual but just because you enter a room consensual doesn't mean that you are consenting to sex.

FWIW I think FSU suspends Winston indefinitely. They have Idaho next and in 10 days have Florida. It gives the states attorney's office time to decide if they are going to press charges. It makes FSU look like they are doing the right thing by suspending Winston during the investigation, at least for one game against cupcake city.

[Sea Ray]

If charges are pursued, I hope they've got a slam dunk case because if there are holes in it and we go through all kinds of hoopla only to find this QB not guilty then that'd be the worst possible outcome. I'm sure the prosecutor is pointing that out to her now.

[medford]

They have the DNA, so it doesn't matter that she said he was 5-11 and he's really 6-4(ish?), they have proof that he was "there", the only question is if she agreed to be with him, or he forced himself upon her.

Listening to Mike & Mike this morning and they had their legal guy on (forget his name, but if you watch or listen to ESPN you've heard him by now for various legal issues that come up in sports). He said at this point, it basically comes down to the physical damage, if any that was done to this girl. He compared it to several cases in the past where there was a he said/she said case. In Ben Toothlessraper's case, there was no phyical damage done to the accuser, so there was nothing to convict him upon. In Mike Tyson's case, there was physical damage, therefor he spent 10 years in prison.

Since this girl went to the emergency room and had the rape test done, there is going to be doctor/nurse accounts of any physical damage done to her. If she was beat up, or there are signs that the sex was forced upon her, Winston could be in trouble. If there are no signs that anything happened consentual sex then there would be nothing to convict him upon other than her "word"

[jojo]

I don't know what is collected in a rape kit. If one was done, then I would imagine that bruises, marks and or injuries would have been noted.

I don't have a link but they did collect a sexual assault kit the day that the accuser reported the incident. We don't know if there were injuries that corroborated the accuser's story or not.


If the police coerced this woman to drop the case then we have a much larger issue at hand. If the police told her she doesn't want to press charges then we have a much larger issue at hand.

If the police refused to interview a direct witness to a rape, refused to investigate with proper vigor, and coerced the accuser to drop the case, then there certainly is a major issue. But we know that the police collected evidence immediately upon the incident being reported because they had a sample to compare with the DNA that Winston volunteered. I'm not ready to argue that the FBI needs to descend upon the Tallahasee PD just yet. The reasoning behind the prosecutor's decision will be pretty illuminating, I think.


Finally, when I lived in the doors and a roommate of mine was in there with a girl I stayed out. If Winston's roommate(s) witnessed what was going on that would also raise some alarms with me. Why was in in there watching? Was something else going on? If he wasn't in the room then all he can say is the two entered the room consensual but just because you enter a room consensual doesn't mean that you are consenting to sex.

I'm not ready to take either side's version of the events as currently understood in the media at face value. I want to see how the DA's office sorts things out because that decision will be informed by important facts that we don't have access to. But I seriously dount there was a roommate watching the encounter and police refused to interview him if they thought it was probable that a rape occurred. I dont know though. College kids do some incredibly evil things to one another and occasionally adults facilitate them by covering it up.

But this is a big deal. The impact on the accuser, the accused, and the community all have to be weighed and from the very little we know about this, the DA is contemplating a worst case scenario concerning a burden of proof. I am so glad that I'm not the one making the decision.

[New York Red]

The impact on the accuser, the accused, and the community all have to be weighed ...
The impact on the community? What do you mean by that??

[jojo]

The impact on the community? What do you mean by that??

I think it's obvious.

The community demands fairness and justice be served.

This simply isn't a matter of an accuser's concerns trump all. Impact on the accused is also important.

In this particular case, the impact of being charged with a felony on the accused also has a tremendous impact on the community as he will be immediately removed from the FSU team which could result in millions of dollars of lost revenue for local interests given the implications for a national championship.

Blow your gasket but also save the jaded moralizing for another forum before you spew it in a response. This is not suggesting that a rape should be ignored.

It's an argument that the DA has a burden to make sure that if a rape charge is going to be issued, then it had better have a reasonable chance of being proven given the potential damage to the accused and the community.

In other words, it isn't about football. It's about fairness. And it's perfectly reasonable to argue that position regardless of whether one is a football fan or hates football.

[MWM]

We may never know if it was rape or not. Not all rapes are violent with physical evidence showing it was forced. But if the person said no, it's still rape. And without evidence or witnesses, sadly there's nothing that can be done. I know there are those out there who target famous people for scams, but I tend to be more inclined to believe that in most cases, the potential payoff would not be worth what they have to be put through. Based on what we know at this point, which is an incomplete picture, I find it hard to believe that this was completely fabricated in the hope of personal enrichment. But the most likely scenario is that we will never know with certainty.

[Caveat Emperor]

It's pretty amazing to me that police departments in college towns still insist on handling cases like this themselves. Calling in outside help or a special prosecutor to conduct the investigation seems like a no brainer.

Also, somewhat unrelated, but I'm also tremendously bothered that we don't shield the alleged perpatrator's name the same way we do a victim's name. As of right now there are no charges against this young man, but this case is already being tried in the court of public opinion. That's simply not fair to him.

[19braves77]

Intoxication does not warrant a yes and make the attacker exempt from sexual assault. I feel very sorry for the girl, she is the true victim, not some football team or a star quarterback.

[jojo]

Intoxication does not warrant a yes and make the attacker exempt from sexual assault. I feel very sorry for the girl, she is the true victim, not some football team or a star quarterback.

What does intoxication have to do with anything? Also, while discussing what is warranted, your post assumes way more than is actually warranted.

[New York Red]

Blow your gasket but also save the jaded moralizing for another forum before you spew it in a response. This is not suggesting that a rape should be ignored.
Wow, you get defensive quick. Good thing I just asked what you meant instead of, you know, giving an opinion. I wasn't sure if you were referring to the FSU football program, the perception of local law enforcement, or any number of other things you could have been referring to. Thanks for clearing it up.

[jojo]

Thanks for clearing it up.

Youre welcome.

[Yachtzee]

Right now we have an anonymous accuser claiming she was raped, a garment belonging to the victim that has Winston's DNA on it (we know this because the police collected a sexual assault kit the day that the incident was reported and Winston volunteered a sample of his DAN last week), a denial by Winston that there was a rape, and affidavids from two people who were with the alledged victim and Winston who don't corroborate the victim's story in sworn statements.

The police have the accuser's testimony and evidence collected during a rape kit. The accuser also quit cooperating in February essentially making it much harder to effectively investigate especially since they had to contact Winston through a lawyer. That DNA matched really isn't even a major issue. If Winston didn't deny sexual contact and affidavids suggest a consensual situation, it most likely comes down to whether there were any injuries observed suggested of rape. Apparently the accuser wasn't legally intoxicated given the letter from the family so there isn't even that potential issue of consent.

If the above is accurate, then this is a "he said/she said" situation where the accuser quit cooperating and the accused retained a lawyer almost instantly. Even if Winston would be indicted, this is probably the worst case scenario in terms of trying to get a conviction.

The Tallahassee police look bad but they really had zero to propel this case from February on while the accused apparently had witnesses casting doubt on the facts. I think any marks/injuries is going to be a key issue. I also don't buy for a second that Winston's room mate witnessed a rape and police refused to interview him. I could be wrong, but that assertion really needs to be proven.

The real problem is why the victim stopped cooperating. Was it because the case was weak or because the detective on the case said something that shouldn't have been said? .

[IslandRed]

Disclaimers... (1) FSU grad here who has heard plenty of TPD horror stories, although being overly helpful to athletes is not among their normal traits. (2) As a man who is also the daddy of a daughter, my position is simple: If he raped someone, I want him off the team and in jail. If he didn't rape anyone, I don't want his name dragged through the mud. Too late on the latter one way or the other, unfortunately. (3) Some of my fellow FSU fans need to be leashed and muzzled. (4) Apparently, so does practically everyone involved in this case except the two principals.

What I've been reading is that Winston (through his attorney) has taken the position all along that it was a consensual sexual hookup, and the DNA sample was given last week knowing there would be a match. It's not new information except to outsiders who were hoping it was all a big misunderstanding. (To answer another question, yes, a rape kit was performed at the time.) And it's also being said that Winston and the alleged victim were not strangers, according to the affidavits and social-media bread crumbs. So it raised serious eyebrows when the initial report described an unknown assailant who didn't resemble Winston and then she didn't ID him until a month later, if indeed she did know Winston all along. At a certain point, when it was clear there wasn't a viable case with which to move forward, the alleged victim let it drop and TPD did likewise.

Anyway, take that for what it's worth, which could be everything, nothing or in between.

It does appear TPD screwed up by not forwarding the case to the state attorney's office as a matter of protocol, regardless of what they thought of the merits.

There's also plenty of speculation about who tipped off the media and TMZ about the inactive case, right about the time FSU went to #2 and Winston became the Heisman front-runner. It's not of much interest to me, though, because ultimately it's small potatoes compared to what the alleged victim and Winston are dealing with.


FWIW I think FSU suspends Winston indefinitely. They have Idaho next and in 10 days have Florida. It gives the states attorney's office time to decide if they are going to press charges. It makes FSU look like they are doing the right thing by suspending Winston during the investigation, at least for one game against cupcake city.

Remember that this is all a re-hash of stuff that happened from December to February. It's new to us, but it's not new to them, so if they hadn't suspended him before, they're probably not going to do it now. (Edit) Unless he's charged. By rule, athletes at FSU who are charged with felonies cannot compete until the case is resolved.

[jojo]

The real problem is why the victim stopped cooperating. Was it because the case was weak or because the detective on the case said something that shouldn't have been said? .

I too think this is a very important. Did the accuser make a rational choice that it wasn't worth pursuing or did a law enforcement officer manipulate her?

Its possible that the detective wasnt excited about the strength of the evidence and the accuser is dissapointed by a perception that the investigation lacks vigor and was offended that her testimony wasn't enough.

I think there are two issues:
1) was there actually a witness that was completely ignored.
2) did a physical examination corroborate the accuser's story or not (if not, it's still not evidence that she wasn't raped, it's just a lack of proof that she was)

[jojo]

Disclaimers... (1) FSU grad here who has heard plenty of TPD horror stories, although being overly helpful to athletes is not among their normal traits. (2) As a man who is also the daddy of a daughter, my position is simple: If he raped someone, I want him off the team and in jail. If he didn't rape anyone, I don't want his name dragged through the mud. Too late on the latter one way or the other, unfortunately. (3) Some of my fellow FSU fans need to be leashed and muzzled. (4) Apparently, so does practically everyone involved in this case except the two principals.

What I've been reading is that Winston (through his attorney) has taken the position all along that it was a consensual sexual hookup, and the DNA sample was given last week knowing there would be a match. It's not new information except to outsiders who were hoping it was all a big misunderstanding. (To answer another question, yes, a rape kit was performed at the time.) And it's also being said that Winston and the alleged victim were not strangers, according to the affidavits and social-media bread crumbs. So it raised serious eyebrows when the initial report described an unknown assailant who didn't resemble Winston and then she didn't ID him until a month later, if indeed she did know Winston all along. At a certain point, when it was clear there wasn't a viable case with which to move forward, the alleged victim let it drop and TPD did likewise.

Anyway, take that for what it's worth, which could be everything, nothing or in between.

It does appear TPD screwed up by not forwarding the case to the state attorney's office as a matter of protocol, regardless of what they thought of the merits.

There's also plenty of speculation about who tipped off the media and TMZ about the inactive case, right about the time FSU went to #2 and Winston became the Heisman front-runner. It's not of much interest to me, though, because ultimately it's small potatoes compared to what the alleged victim and Winston are dealing with.



Remember that this is all a re-hash of stuff that happened from December to February. It's new to us, but it's not new to them, so if they hadn't suspended him before, they're probably not going to do it now. (Edit) Unless he's charged. By rule, athletes at FSU who are charged with felonies cannot compete until the case is resolved.

This is pretty much exactly everything I've heard from friends at FSU.

[Yachtzee]

It's pretty amazing to me that police departments in college towns still insist on handling cases like this themselves. Calling in outside help or a special prosecutor to conduct the investigation seems like a no brainer.

Also, somewhat unrelated, but I'm also tremendously bothered that we don't shield the alleged perpatrator's name the same way we do a victim's name. As of right now there are no charges against this young man, but this case is already being tried in the court of public opinion. That's simply not fair to him.

Unfortunately (or fortunately), police reports are public record for everyone. I've had people lose their jobs over getting charged with a misdemeanor, only to get the case dismissed later. I've also had cases where my clients have been able to build a defense because they had access to police reports that show the alleged victim has a history of bad behavior even though the police chose not to file charges.

On the one hand, it stinks that this guy is dealing with this without charges being filed and he does turn out to be innocent, but then again, would you feel the same way if he were a serial rapist and nobody knew? Imagine if he was implicated in 4 or 5 rapes, but never got charged because the police either didn't do a proper investigation or were protecting him because of his star status. If his name were kept from the public, no one might ever find out unless the victims got together and talked or someone in the police department blew the whistle. When it comes to criminal matters, you have to balance the privacy of the individual with the public's right to know.

[Sea Ray]

What does intoxication have to do with anything?

If this gal was intoxicated it'll be harder for the prosecutor to get a conviction. As will the fact that she initially opted to not press charges

[medford]

Intoxication does not warrant a yes and make the attacker exempt from sexual assault. I feel very sorry for the girl, she is the true victim, not some football team or a star quarterback.

How do you know you should feel sorry for her? how do you know she's the true victim? She could be making it up, perhaps Winton told her he wasn't interested in a relationship after they hooked up and she was trying to extract revenge, which is maybe why she didn't push things forward. Maybe she's a victim, but at this point, maybe she's not. I'll w/hold judgement that just maybe Winston is the victim in this mess at this point. Either way, I just hope the truth comes out and real justice is served, there is definetnly potential that we never know the true story behind this.

[jojo]

If this gal was intoxicated it'll be harder for the prosecutor to get a conviction. As will the fact that she initially opted to not press charges

Her family has argued that she was not.

[Yachtzee]

If this gal was intoxicated it'll be harder for the prosecutor to get a conviction. As will the fact that she initially opted to not press charges

Actually, intoxicated victim often works against the defendant because it can be argued that an intoxicated victim can't give consent.

[Caveat Emperor]

Unfortunately (or fortunately), police reports are public record for everyone. I've had people lose their jobs over getting charged with a misdemeanor, only to get the case dismissed later. I've also had cases where my clients have been able to build a defense because they had access to police reports that show the alleged victim has a history of bad behavior even though the police chose not to file charges.

On the one hand, it stinks that this guy is dealing with this without charges being filed and he does turn out to be innocent, but then again, would you feel the same way if he were a serial rapist and nobody knew? Imagine if he was implicated in 4 or 5 rapes, but never got charged because the police either didn't do a proper investigation or were protecting him because of his star status. If his name were kept from the public, no one might ever find out unless the victims got together and talked or someone in the police department blew the whistle. When it comes to criminal matters, you have to balance the privacy of the individual with the public's right to know.

I agree with what you're saying in principle, but rape is such an incredibly damning allegation that I think there should be some additional protections. Maybe at least something that prevents his name from being released until the investigation is concluded to prevent this constant stream of "updates" whenever a new fact emerges. I think that's at least some protection for the accused while maintaining transparency.

[Yachtzee]

If this gal was intoxicated it'll be harder for the prosecutor to get a conviction. As will the fact that she initially opted to not press charges

Actually, intoxicated victim often works against the defendant because it can be argued that an intoxicated victim can't give consent.

[Sea Ray]

Her family has argued that she was not.

Then that will bode well for her case but don't act like that fact doesn't matter.

[bucksfan2]

Disclaimers... (1) FSU grad here who has heard plenty of TPD horror stories, although being overly helpful to athletes is not among their normal traits. (2) As a man who is also the daddy of a daughter, my position is simple: If he raped someone, I want him off the team and in jail. If he didn't rape anyone, I don't want his name dragged through the mud. Too late on the latter one way or the other, unfortunately. (3) Some of my fellow FSU fans need to be leashed and muzzled. (4) Apparently, so does practically everyone involved in this case except the two principals.

What I've been reading is that Winston (through his attorney) has taken the position all along that it was a consensual sexual hookup, and the DNA sample was given last week knowing there would be a match. It's not new information except to outsiders who were hoping it was all a big misunderstanding. (To answer another question, yes, a rape kit was performed at the time.) And it's also being said that Winston and the alleged victim were not strangers, according to the affidavits and social-media bread crumbs. So it raised serious eyebrows when the initial report described an unknown assailant who didn't resemble Winston and then she didn't ID him until a month later, if indeed she did know Winston all along. At a certain point, when it was clear there wasn't a viable case with which to move forward, the alleged victim let it drop and TPD did likewise.

Anyway, take that for what it's worth, which could be everything, nothing or in between.

It does appear TPD screwed up by not forwarding the case to the state attorney's office as a matter of protocol, regardless of what they thought of the merits.

There's also plenty of speculation about who tipped off the media and TMZ about the inactive case, right about the time FSU went to #2 and Winston became the Heisman front-runner. It's not of much interest to me, though, because ultimately it's small potatoes compared to what the alleged victim and Winston are dealing with.



Remember that this is all a re-hash of stuff that happened from December to February. It's new to us, but it's not new to them, so if they hadn't suspended him before, they're probably not going to do it now. (Edit) Unless he's charged. By rule, athletes at FSU who are charged with felonies cannot compete until the case is resolved.

I appreciate a response from someone who has more a feeling of the local flavor.

This stuff happened from December to February, but that also coincides with FSU Baseball season starting up, in which Winston is a pretty good player, no? I did not know who Winston was until this football season started but from experience as an OSU fan, if you have a hyped QB, even as a HS senior, their name is pretty much known by all OSU fans. Could Winston's status have gotten him out of this?

The dangerous aspect of this case is if the police coerced this woman into dropping the story. I am not an attorney, but if the defendant chooses not to press charges, doesn't the accusation go away? We see it all the time with wives who are beaten by their man. They sustain pretty substantial injuries, head to the hospital, make an accusation, but then fail to press charges and the case is dropped.

The way I look at it today is that Winston submitted to a DNA test because both he and his lawyer knew what was going to be found. They knew his DNA was on the accuser's underwear. They knew that submitting a DNA test would be much easier than having one subpoenaed (if that is the proper term.) If he was forced by the court to give a DNA test that would have been greeted with much great fan fare.

If, and this is a big if, the accuser in this case was "coerced" by the police to drop the case because of Winston's status in FSU's athletic programs then you have a massive case on your hands. If this is a case of he said, she said, with limited evidence then I feel bad for Winston. The problem is when the proper channels aren't used you often make mountains out of molehills.

[Sea Ray]

Actually, intoxicated victim often works against the defendant because it can be argued that an intoxicated victim can't give consent.

In certain cases, this is correct. My point stays the same: intoxication does have a bearing on these cases

[jojo]

Then that will bode well for her case but don't act like that fact doesn't matter.

You should read for content because it has been indicated several times that she apparently wasn't intoxicated hence the point that was made.

It also doesn't bode one way or the other for her case but is potentially helpful for his.

[jojo]

In certain cases, this is correct. My point stays the same: intoxication does have a bearing on these cases

And again, since apparently she wasn't , it doesn't in this case.

[jojo]

I appreciate a response from someone who has more a feeling of the local flavor.

This stuff happened from December to February, but that also coincides with FSU Baseball season starting up, in which Winston is a pretty good player, no? I did not know who Winston was until this football season started but from experience as an OSU fan, if you have a hyped QB, even as a HS senior, their name is pretty much known by all OSU fans. Could Winston's status have gotten him out of this?

The dangerous aspect of this case is if the police coerced this woman into dropping the story. I am not an attorney, but if the defendant chooses not to press charges, doesn't the accusation go away? We see it all the time with wives who are beaten by their man. They sustain pretty substantial injuries, head to the hospital, make an accusation, but then fail to press charges and the case is dropped.

The way I look at it today is that Winston submitted to a DNA test because both he and his lawyer knew what was going to be found. They knew his DNA was on the accuser's underwear. They knew that submitting a DNA test would be much easier than having one subpoenaed (if that is the proper term.) If he was forced by the court to give a DNA test that would have been greeted with much great fan fare.

If, and this is a big if, the accuser in this case was "coerced" by the police to drop the case because of Winston's status in FSU's athletic programs then you have a massive case on your hands. If this is a case of he said, she said, with limited evidence then I feel bad for Winston. The problem is when the proper channels aren't used you often make mountains out of molehills.

Winston was most definitely a known person on campus given his prospect status.

[IslandRed]

If, and this is a big if, the accuser in this case was "coerced" by the police to drop the case because of Winston's status in FSU's athletic programs then you have a massive case on your hands. If this is a case of he said, she said, with limited evidence then I feel bad for Winston. The problem is when the proper channels aren't used you often make mountains out of molehills.

While the detective shouldn't have said what he said to the accuser's attorney (assuming it really was said), the attorney is a former prosecutor. They don't scare easily. I suspect this was during the "there's nothing much here, are you sure you want to do this?" phase. The "advice" was misplaced but it's also true to an extent, and would be in any sports-mad town. By definition this was going to be a high-profile case and an accuser is going to face backlash and scrutiny, especially if the case was not open and shut. I wish the world didn't work like that, but alas.

As for Winston being shielded because of his status, I'm not going to say that couldn't have happened, but TPD has rung up plenty of guys over the years of higher profile. At the time in question, Winston had yet to take the field in any sport. It's worth noting that FSU's projected four-man WR rotation was reduced to three over the summer because Greg Dent, a senior, was arrested by TPD, charged with sexual battery and kicked off the team. No muss, no fuss. The fact that FSU and Jimbo Fisher did not suspend Winston, knowing of this incident -- before spring practice, before he won the starting job, before he became Famous Jameis -- tells me they believe 100% in his innocence. It doesn't guarantee they're right but it tells me they believe it.

[New York Red]

The fact that FSU and Jimbo Fisher did not suspend Winston, knowing of this incident -- before spring practice, before he won the starting job, before he became Famous Jameis -- tells me they believe 100% in his innocence. It doesn't guarantee they're right but it tells me they believe it.
Of course they'd think he's innocent. He wasn't even investigated, or even interviewed. This thing has cover-up written all over it. Who knows what actually happened, but from an outsiders vantage point, it looks like Winston was given preferential treatment because of his local celebrity at the time. I'm not surprised FSU people see it differently. Football is king in Tallahassee.

[Joseph]

Actually, intoxicated victim often works against the defendant because it can be argued that an intoxicated victim can't give consent.

I don't mean to change the topic entirely here, but I've always taken some issue with this. If having a couple drinks then making a bad decision can constitute rape, it should count both ways. Sure, guys are typically the pursuer, but really, we want equality in this world but if a guy had a few beers then hooked up with a woman he later regretted he'd be laughed out of the police department if he tried to file a rape claim.

I completely agree if someone has had enough that they are barely coherent or passed out, then no they can't consent, but if someone chooses to impair their judgment I don't feel good about putting folks away because they change their mind later about the actions they make.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I just needed to vent a bit.

[jojo]

Of course they'd think he's innocent. He wasn't even investigated, or even interviewed. This thing has cover-up written all over it. Who knows what actually happened, but from an outsiders vantage point, it looks like Winston was given preferential treatment because of his local celebrity at the time. I'm not surprised FSU people see it differently. Football is king in Tallahassee.

The TPD hasn't really pulled a ton of punches in the past. Not sure why all of the sudden a redshirt freshman would be treated like he was AJ McCarron or Trent Richardson in need of a suit.

This from a FSU insider (take it for what it's worth):


"Rumor from Tally is that JWs story has ALWAYS been it that it was consensual.
That one of the affidavits is from the accuser’s roommate and the other is from another football player, both of whom were present (happened at HER apartment, not a bar, not a party, not JWs place). That both confirm that they had an ongoing relationship.

That there are photos of the two of them together taken before AND after the initial allegation. That roommate claims she was pissed at JW for some reason that night and decided to claim rape. (perhaps because he told her his real GF was coming in town that day and to lay low). That she changed her mind after the call but before the cops got there but didn’t want to tell them she made it up. (thus the “unidentified” rapist…intentionally fabricated description) That when she later was pressed, she identified JW and was questioned about her inconsistent statements and evidence of a consensual relationship and realized she better drop it. That when the accuser met with Meggs on Tuesday, she reaffirmed that she did not want to press charges. That every bit of evidence collected points to consensual sex and there is no way charges will be brought. That TPD and SAO are only trying to figure out how to clear JW without exposing/humiliating the accuser.
Also, that JW informed Jimbo about it in DECEMBER of last year after he heard of the call to the cops and told him EVERYTHING (thus JF’s continued faith in JW).
Assuming any of this is correct (not that there is any proof of any of it) JW, JF and Jansens confidence is not surprising.
Based on what we know now, if there are no charges by Friday, and if JW is suited up on Saturday, you can bet that there will not be any. And whoever is responsible for leaking this is certainly going to get “raked over the coals”

[New York Red]

The TPD hasn't really pulled a ton of punches in the past. Not sure why all of the sudden a redshirt freshman would be treated like he was AJ McCarron or Trent Richardson in need of a suit.
Please. He was the #1 ranked recruit in the entire country. Let's not pretend this is some nobody in Tallahassee. As for what punches the TPD has or hasn't pulled in the past with FSU athletes, none of us have a clue about that. All I know is how they handled this particular case. No investigation, no interview, nothing. Even though they were given the accused name? There's no way that's standard procedure for a rape accusation.

[IslandRed]

Please. He was the #1 ranked recruit in the entire country. Let's not pretend this is some nobody in Tallahassee. As for what punches the TPD has or hasn't pulled in the past with FSU athletes, none of us have a clue about that.

I did, but apparently only non-fans are credible when it comes to what goes on in a program or a college town. I'll be sure to remind you of that next time something comes up on UK. :p Sorry, just trying to lighten the mood here.


All I know is how they handled this particular case. No investigation, no interview, nothing. Even though they were given the accused name? There's no way that's standard procedure for a rape accusation.

FSU and TPD had his version of events and who the witnesses were back then, and it hasn't changed so far as anyone knows. He wasn't "interviewed" (and still hasn't been) -- directly. That's what attorneys are for. I'm not a lawyer so I don't know what other protocols were broken, exactly.

Nonetheless, the pessimistic side of me expects Winston to be charged if for no other reason than to show they're not covering it up.

[New York Red]

I did, but apparently only non-fans are credible when it comes to what goes on in a program or a college town. I'll be sure to remind you of that next time something comes up on UK. :p Sorry, just trying to lighten the mood here.



FSU and TPD had his version of events and who the witnesses were back then, and it hasn't changed so far as anyone knows. He wasn't "interviewed" (and still hasn't been) -- directly. That's what attorneys are for. I'm not a lawyer so I don't know what other protocols were broken, exactly.

Nonetheless, the pessimistic side of me expects Winston to be charged if for no other reason than to show they're not covering it up.
Like I said before, I have no idea what happened. My comments are directed at the TPD. It just seems like it was handled very unprofessionally from the start. As for UK, no one is harder on former and/or current UK athletes who run afoul of the law than I am (see my comments about Michael Porter and Deandre Liggins in the past year). Winston is an incredible football player. He's had my Heisman vote since the first couple weeks of the season. If he's innocent, hopefully this publicity doesn't hurt his chances. If he's guilty, I hope he's treated as any other citizen in the same situation would be treated.

[jojo]

Please. He was the #1 ranked recruit in the entire country. Let's not pretend this is some nobody in Tallahassee. As for what punches the TPD has or hasn't pulled in the past with FSU athletes, none of us have a clue about that. All I know is how they handled this particular case. No investigation, no interview, nothing. Even though they were given the accused name? There's no way that's standard procedure for a rape accusation.

There is a general sense by people associated with FSU that your narrative isn't really accurate. Also there very clearly was an investigation because the police have rape kit evidence, witness statements and affidavits and extensive interaction with Winston's legal representation. Even if you don't believe a word of "FSU people in the know believe", your narrative simply isn't congruent with the facts.

[Puffy]

Interesting article. My first thought is whether this is real (Deadspin is the one who broke the Te'o fake girlfriend thing - but that had major misses in it as well, so they get most of credit there). My second thought is that even if these things are true I am pretty sure they are common at most big football schools. Anyway, for your reading pleasure:

http://deadspin.com/jameis-winston-isnt-the-only-problem-here-an-fsu-teac-1467707410

[19braves77]

Interesting article. My first thought is whether this is real (Deadspin is the one who broke the Te'o fake girlfriend thing - but that had major misses in it as well, so they get most of credit there). My second thought is that even if these things are true I am pretty sure they are common at most big football schools. Anyway, for your reading pleasure:

http://deadspin.com/jameis-winston-isnt-the-only-problem-here-an-fsu-teac-1467707410

remember this is the school that got bored with winning and then ran off the man responsible for that winning.

With the way Jojo responses, I wouldn't be surprised if he was one of the eye witnesses. Also, we can always trust underage students to admit they were not drinking underage in one of the biggest party schools in the South.


All this happened before he was even a starter which makes the frame up defense harder to believe. He could have broke his leg in the spring and sat out a whole year. The questionable handling by the local police did Winston no favors Their actions hint that there is truth to the rape charge.

Right or wrong - generally if a woman reports a rape and is willing to pursue it, she gets her day in court. If something different happens here we will know why.

[jojo]

remember this is the school that got bored with winning and then ran off the man responsible for that winning.

With the way Jojo responds, I wouldn't be surprised if he was one of the eye witnesses. Also, we can always trust underage students to admit they were not drinking underage in one of the biggest party schools in the South.


All this happened before he was even a starter which makes the frame up defense harder to believe. He could have broke his leg in the spring and sat out a whole year. The questionable handling by the local police did Winston no favors Their actions hint that there is truth to the rape charge.

Right or wrong - generally if a woman reports a rape and is willing to pursue it, she gets her day in court. If something different happens here we will know why.

So you're saying that if the accuser's lawyer continually reiterates that the accuser wanted the matter dropped and wishes to move on with her life, Bama fans could quit using this issue to lobby for McCarron to win the Heisman and Bama websites could quit airbrushing over his tatoos?

So you're saying that if the accuser's blood test indicated she was not intoxicated it would be the penultimate in foolishness to post metacommentary about whether under-aged individuals are truthful about their drinking habits?

I get it. Blindly adopting the stance that Winston should be charged with a felony makes perfect sense to toothless people living on sand mountain. After all, a person whose lawyer continually reiterates the person doesn't want a day in court must have her day in court regardless of whether or not there is legitimate reason for the DA to charge Winston with a felony because in some twisted code of justice, truth and justice is somehow dictated by whether or not the outcome improves the chances that the toothless who worship at the alter of houndstooth can alter their tattoos come January. But truthfully, the holy toothless should probably worry more about Auburn than Winston and they should focus a little more on the quarterback just down the road who has a statistically better case for a Heismann vote than the oft worshipped by the toothless, never-to-amount-to-anything in the nfl heismann wannabe QB.

[WrongVerb]

I'll start with a bit of a disclaimer: I'm not only a FSU football fan, that school is where I got my meteorology degree.

That said, I'm treating this as I'm treating most stories like this: something probably happened, but neither me, nor anyone here, nor most journalists are close enough to it to be able to say with certainty what really happened. The best thing to do is sit back and wait for the official report.

That said, in big college football towns (and Tallahassee is a HUGE college football town) there are officials who go out of their way to protect stars. Is that happening here? I don't know. You don't know. Newspapers don't know. Again, time will tell.

If Winston DID rape that woman, then I'll be hugely disappointed. Disappointed not just because he'll never play for FSU again, but that he lost control, made a huge mistake, hurt someone in a way that isn't easy to recover from, and ruined a very, very promising career. And if this is the case, then Winston deserves to be prosecuted.

But if he didn't, and a big deal was made out of this for essentially nothing, then just as big a deal needs to be made out of announcing his innocence AND the accuser needs to have charges filed against her.

But until charges are filed, or a report made, we need to withhold judgement on both the accuser and the accused. Let the system work as best it can.

[RedFanAlways1966]

But if he didn't, and a big deal was made out of this for essentially nothing, then just as big a deal needs to be made out of announcing his innocence AND the accuser needs to have charges filed against her.

You made me think of the Duke lacrosse team.

[New York Red]

But if he didn't, and a big deal was made out of this for essentially nothing, then just as big a deal needs to be made out of announcing his innocence AND the accuser needs to have charges filed against her.
You'd want charges filed against the female, based on he said/she said evidence? No offense, but I'm seeing a lot of this from FSU fans on message boards.

[Boston Red]

You'd want charges filed against the female, based on he said/she said evidence? No offense, but I'm seeing a lot of this from FSU fans on message boards.

Agreed. Go ahead and announce that Winston has been cleared to the world, but charging the woman? There had better be a lot of evidence she acted in bad faith before you go down that road.

[KronoRed]

You'd want charges filed against the female, based on he said/she said evidence? No offense, but I'm seeing a lot of this from FSU fans on message boards.

Spend a little time on the nole boards and you'll see a bunch of folks who want to know her name and address so they can do some harassment.

Classy.

[IslandRed]

Spend a little time on the nole boards and you'll see a bunch of folks who want to know her name and address so they can do some harassment.

Classy.

Yeah. Unfortunately, in cases like this, the cretins are the ones who talk the loudest. Anyway, from my admittedly non-professional reading of the tea leaves, I have my doubts the accuser herself has had anything to do with the recent events.

This Yahoo article from earlier today seems to sum up a lot of what I've been seeing/hearing/reading from my friends there:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--opinions-on-jameis-winston-case-vary-as-florida-state-community-awaits-decision-041643901.html

[WrongVerb]

You'd want charges filed against the female, based on he said/she said evidence? No offense, but I'm seeing a lot of this from FSU fans on message boards.

I guess it does depend on what exactly the circumstances were. But yeah, I'm in favor of this regardless of what the team is. Seriously, I think false charges of rape diminishes the real thing and makes us more callous and willing to question the victim.

But no, I don't want her address or anything of the sort. I'm too old (and too mature?) to know that's an absurd thing to do. Just let the justice system run its course.

[Sea Ray]

You'd want charges filed against the female, based on he said/she said evidence? No offense, but I'm seeing a lot of this from FSU fans on message boards.

If it turns out to be a Duke Lacross situation, then yes

[JaxRed]

Was listening to local Sports talk here in Jax on Friday. The radio guy is a FSU grad. Don't know if he really has sources, but he says there are pictures up all over the web if you know where to look, that show the accuser and Winston both before and after the incident.

He says Winston and the girl had a ongoing romantic relationship before and after, and this occurred because Winston had a fling with an ex-girlfriend.

A local lawyer who was on as part of a "courts and sports" recurring segment, says if there are picture of them socializing after..... this thing is dead.

The local guy says he expects this to be dropped by Wed.

[New York Red]

If it turns out to be a Duke Lacross situation, then yes
Well that hasn't happened yet, and the fact the accuser hasn't pursued this since being pressured to drop it nine months ago, tells me this probably isn't similar to the Duke lacrosse thing.

[New York Red]

Was listening to local Sports talk here in Jax on Friday. The radio guy is a FSU grad. Don't know if he really has sources, but he says there are pictures up all over the web if you know where to look, that show the accuser and Winston both before and after the incident.

He says Winston and the girl had a ongoing romantic relationship before and after, and this occurred because Winston had a fling with an ex-girlfriend.

A local lawyer who was on as part of a "courts and sports" recurring segment, says if there are picture of them socializing after..... this thing is dead.

The local guy says he expects this to be dropped by Wed.
I did some quick Google searches with different entries and came up with zero pics. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I'm not finding them. I'm sure that not knowing the accuser's name is the problem. But if these pics are so easily available, wouldn't the DA have seen them before his most recent comments yesterday?

[Sea Ray]

Was listening to local Sports talk here in Jax on Friday. The radio guy is a FSU grad. Don't know if he really has sources, but he says there are pictures up all over the web if you know where to look, that show the accuser and Winston both before and after the incident.

He says Winston and the girl had a ongoing romantic relationship before and after, and this occurred because Winston had a fling with an ex-girlfriend.

A local lawyer who was on as part of a "courts and sports" recurring segment, says if there are picture of them socializing after..... this thing is dead.

The local guy says he expects this to be dropped by Wed.

I don't understand why such pictures would kill this thing. Why couldn't it be date rape?

[Sea Ray]

Well that hasn't happened yet, and the fact the accuser hasn't pursued this since being pressured to drop it nine months ago, tells me this probably isn't similar to the Duke lacrosse thing.

I agree with you that it does not look like this is another Duke lacrosse thing

[traderumor]

I agree with you that it does not look like this is another Duke lacrosse thingPlus, his contact wasn't because she was a stripper.

[dougdirt]

I don't understand why such pictures would kill this thing. Why couldn't it be date rape?

I am hypothesizing here, but I don't think to many women are going to be raped and know about it (where as a date rape drug may leave them without the knowledge of it happening), then continue to hang out with that person beyond the incident. Since this woman had an rape kit done on her, she clearly knew it happened at the time and thus knew who it was who did it. Why would she have continued to hang out with or be around this person?

[jojo]

I am hypothesizing here, but I don't think to many women are going to be raped and know about it (where as a date rape drug may leave them without the knowledge of it happening), then continue to hang out with that person beyond the incident. Since this woman had an rape kit done on her, she clearly knew it happened at the time and thus knew who it was who did it. Why would she have continued to hang out with or be around this person?

Well, to be fair, he shrunk 6 inches the night he allegedly raped the accuser. It's possible that she didn't recognize him, especially after he grow another 6 inches the next day.

[jojo]

http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2013/PDFs/winston.pdf

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1849688-jameis-winston-under-investigation-for-alleged-sexual-assault

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/acc/2013/11/22/jameis-winston-sexual-battery-allegation-florida-states-seminoles/3672039/

http://www.wctv.tv/news/bigstories/headlines/BREAKING-231816891.html

[JaxRed]

I don't understand why such pictures would kill this thing. Why couldn't it be date rape?

Because you don't continue to socialize with someone who raped you. We'll see where this goes, but if there are pictures of them socializing after the event (which I have never seen) I doubt seriously there is a indictment.

[traderumor]

Well, to be fair, he shrunk 6 inches the night he allegedly raped the accuser. It's possible that she didn't recognize him, especially after he grow another 6 inches the next day.DNA.

[jojo]

DNA.

Proves what? The answer to why she continued to hang out with someone who supposedly raped her is DNA? Her genes made her do it?

[traderumor]

Proves what? The answer to why she continued to hang out with someone who supposedly raped her is DNA? Her genes made her do it?You were poking fun at the height discrepancy, which is rendered moot because of the DNA. The only question is consensual vs. forced, not that he was the one, is my understanding at this point.

[jojo]

You were poking fun at the height discrepancy, which is rendered moot because of the DNA. The only question is consensual vs. forced, not that he was the one, is my understanding at this point.

So if the question is one of consensual versus forced, the credibility of the accuser is paramount, right? So if the accuser associated with the accused both before and after the nght in question, it's first, puzzling why she couldn't give an accurate discription of Winston and it's puzzling why she'd continue to socialize with him after the night in question, if indeed Winston actually did rape her.

So no, DNA doesn't render the height issue moot. The height issue cuts to the very heart of the issue of "consensual or forced". It's actually the DNA that is completely moot because Winston acknowledges the two had sexual contact and he argues the contact was consensual.

[traderumor]

So if the question is one of consensual versus forced, the credibility of the accuser is paramount, right? So if the accuser associated with the accused both before and after the nght in question, it's first, puzzling why she couldn't give an accurate discription of Winston and it's puzzling why she'd continue to socialize with him after the night in question, if indeed Winston actually did rape her.

So no, DNA doesn't render the height issue moot. The height issue cuts to the very heart of the issue of "consensual or forced". It's actually the DNA that is completely moot because Winston acknowledges the two had sexual contact and he argues the contact was consensual.It isn't moot when that's only his side of the story. It puts him there and now makes the DA have to consider the issue. Unless he is turning himself in and pleading guilty, why would he say anything but that?

[jojo]

It isn't moot when that's only his side of the story. It puts him there and now makes the DA have to consider the issue. Unless he is turning himself in and pleading guilty, why would he say anything but that?

The DA had to consider the issue anyway. You know who was the least excited to get the DNA results? The DA. Why? Because the results didn't tell him a single thing that he didn't already know. Both individuals have already conceded that sexual contact had occurred.

If the DNA results help anyone it's Winston. He's maintained that sexual contact occurred all long. The accuser on the other hand, did know who she had sex with until she later knew it was Winston.

You've kind of argued yourself into a corner on this issue and I'm not sure why you chose to do so.

[LoganBuck]

On this Winston thing, until someone announces actual charges, it is all crap. The rule of thumb for all of these stupid NCAA related events is that 75% of what is reported is made up behind some random fanatics keyboard. It gets out on the internet, and then you have "pictures that can be found if you know where to look". If a sports figure or team is involved, reason and fact checking go out the window. Has it even been actually confirmed that the DNA was Winston's? The media ran with that all last week. Seriously.

Auburn, Ohio State, Oregon, even Penn State, Kobe Bryant, Ben Rapistburger, what was actually confirmed never added up to the initial furor. Remember that someone reported that Joe Paterno made the coaches all shower at the same time, together, for bonding? That was like a whole week of crap. Even the stupid Teo fake girlfriend thing was embellished. How many people has Aaron Hernandez been accused of killing?

[kaldaniels]

On this Winston thing, until someone announces actual charges, it is all crap. The rule of thumb for all of these stupid NCAA related events is that 75% of what is reported is made up behind some random fanatics keyboard. It gets out on the internet, and then you have "pictures that can be found if you know where to look". If a sports figure or team is involved, reason and fact checking go out the window. Has it even been actually confirmed that the DNA was Winston's? The media ran with that all last week. Seriously.

Auburn, Ohio State, Oregon, even Penn State, Kobe Bryant, Ben Rapistburger, what was actually confirmed never added up to the initial furor. Remember that someone reported that Joe Paterno made the coaches all shower at the same time, together, for bonding? That was like a whole week of crap. Even the stupid Teo fake girlfriend thing was embellished. How many people has Aaron Hernandez been accused of killing?

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/10009077/dna-analysis-matches-jameis-winston-accuser

Believe what you like. I think things are just a bit farther along than "crap" at this point. Winston may be innocent, but there is smoke at this point. Nothing more, nothing less...but certainly more than a fanatic's typing.

[LoganBuck]

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/10009077/dna-analysis-matches-jameis-winston-accuser

Believe what you like. I think things are just a bit farther along than "crap" at this point. Winston may be innocent, but there is smoke at this point. Nothing more, nothing less...but certainly more than a fanatic's typing.

From the article you linked

"We are not surprised with the results of the DNA," he said, according to USA Today. "We voluntarily submitted to a DNA. The only thing we are surprised by is it was leaked out by law enforcement. The question the people should ask is, why is it being leaked? For what purpose?"

A Gator fan in the office? Who knows, but I have yet to see a prosecutor comment on this, and specifically confirm this leak.

More

"However, either the Tallahassee Police Department or Mr. Meggs' office has decided they're going to improperly leak evidence to the media. We are saddened to learn that someone has decided to leak evidence to the public before Mr. Meggs has had time to make a decision. The improperly leaked report, if true, has zero impact on Mr. Winston's defense, and Mr. Winston maintains his innocence."

I hate the public witchhunts associated with these scenarios. Every nutcase with a keyboard and a mouse is a wanna be hero.

[kaldaniels]

Certainly correct me if any of the below is not true.

We have the lawyer of a young woman saying she was raped by Jameis Winston. A rape kit was done and the DNA matches Winston.

To me, that swings the needle past the "crap" point.

Now, this could go all Duke lacrosse and the accuser is full of it, sure. But I'm not brushing things off as "crap" and somehow conflating things with wild internet rumors.

[LoganBuck]

Nothing confirmed by actual law enforcement authorities. Look as a greedy Buckeye fan, I want nothing more than for Jameis Winston to be suspended so that the Kenyon Martin Effect, takes place. As an observer of college football, and sports in general, I have to believe that it is possible that some people are taking liberties with this story.

[Oexak]

[QUOTE=

I hate the public witchhunts associated with these scenarios. Every nutcase with a keyboard and a mouse is a wanna be hero.[/QUOTE]

My thoughts are the same.

[19braves77]

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/10045666/jameis-winston-florida-state-seminoles-questioned-bb-gun-battle-records-show

Winston seems like he needs to grow up some.

[jojo]

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/10045666/jameis-winston-florida-state-seminoles-questioned-bb-gun-battle-records-show

Winston seems like he needs to grow up some.

Actually the news media needs to work harder to find actual news stories to cover.

We're now talking about BBs and cola in ketchup cups.

This is becoming a joke.

BTW, AJ McCarron is not a legitimate Heisman candidate.

[19braves77]

Those two incidents by themselves are really nothing, but I've seen posts from people around hueytown that indicates other behavior (not as bad as sexual assault) has been covered up as well. Simply based on what we know right now, it's really hard to buy into the whole "good kid" narrative that seemed to hold for a while.

Jojo seems like the kind of guy that would be the first one upset about BBs in his window....

[jojo]

Those two incidents by themselves are really nothing, but I've seen posts from people around hueytown that indicates other behavior (not as bad as sexual assault) has been covered up as well. Simply based on what we know right now, it's really hard to buy into the whole "good kid" narrative that seemed to hold for a while.

Jojo seems like the kind of guy that would be the first one upset about BBs in his window....

Jojo seems like the kind of guy who thinks ESPN has jumped the shark when they lead with cola in a ketchup cup. He also seems like the kind of guy who finds its surreal to see how pious Bama fans have become about QBs despite theirs being a man ***** with a one of the largest and stupidest tattoos in human history plastered across his chest.

[WrongVerb]

From the article you linked

I hate the public witchhunts associated with these scenarios. Every nutcase with a keyboard and a mouse is a wanna be hero.


My thoughts are the same.

Same here. And I have a rooting interest in this fight.

The only thing I'm hoping for at this point is that someone credible comes out with the right information and makes the right decision whatever that decision might be.

[The Operator]

Actually the news media needs to work harder to find actual news stories to cover.

We're now talking about BBs and cola in ketchup cups.

This is becoming a joke.

BTW, AJ McCarron is not a legitimate Heisman candidate.Shooting windows out with BB guns is pretty flipping stupid and dangerous. Might not kill anybody but you could seriously hurt someone and it also happens to be damaging property.

I think it's safe to say that if me and a few of my engineering buddies got caught doing something like that at UK the result would have been a little bit different than had it been Michael Kidd-Gilchrist and Anthony Davis. Same goes for every major school everywhere, FSU included.

Stealing soda? Meh.

[jojo]

A decision has apparently been reached and a press conference will be held tomorrow at 2pm to announce (and presumably explain) the decision...

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/10079906/state-attorney-wraps-investigation-jameis-winston-case

[MWM]

I can't imagine they'd announce a press conference the day before if they were going to arrest him, they'd just do it. Only makes sense if they are not pursuing criminal charges.

[jojo]

I can't imagine they'd announce a press conference the day before if they were going to arrest him, they'd just do it. Only makes sense if they are not pursuing criminal charges.

I tend to think that the case will be closed but I doubt there is a worry that Winston would suddenly disappear. They could charge him and have a negotiated time for he and his lawyer to appear. The only thing I think is certain is that Winston and his lawyer already know what the prosecutor decided.

What are the odds that we'll actually have to wait until 2 pm to know the outcome?

[Caveat Emperor]

I can't imagine they'd announce a press conference the day before if they were going to arrest him, they'd just do it. Only makes sense if they are not pursuing criminal charges.

For a high-profile defendant like this, the "arrest" is more of an arrangement to turn himself in for processing. Likely, his attorneys will be made aware of the decision and the DA will coordinate with them where this is to happen if an indictment is issued.

[dabvu2498]

For a high-profile defendant like this, the "arrest" is more of an arrangement to turn himself in for processing. Likely, his attorneys will be made aware of the decision and the DA will coordinate with them where this is to happen if an indictment is issued.

I can't imagine a prosecutor scheduling a press conference before a bail hearing/arraignment.

I guess it's possible... But...

[medford]

^^^

What they've said above. If they are going to charge him and put him under arrest, his lawyers will be made aware of it, and likely it will be taken care of this morning, prior to the news conference. That nothing has been leaked as of 9:30 est that Winston is going to be charged, my guess is that the prosecuter will decide he doesn't have enough evidence to move forward and considers the case closed pending any future developments.

They won't announce at 2:00 that they are going to press charges, then hire Dog the Bounty Hunter to track Winston down. If we don't hear rumors soon, I'd be shocked if he was charged with anything @ 2:00.

[19braves77]

Apparently they met at a bar , had some shots, and he dropped her off on a scooter.

[New York Red]

Heard on the radio on my lunch break that the FSU team, including Winston, was in flight to Charlotte for the ACC championship game. I think that pretty much guarantees nothing is going to happen. I just hope the media is going to be allowed to ask questions at the presser. That police department has a lot to answer to.

[jojo]

Heard on the radio on my lunch break that the FSU team, including Winston, was in flight to Charlotte for the ACC championship game. I think that pretty much guarantees nothing is going to happen. I just hope the media is going to be allowed to ask questions at the presser. That police department has a lot to answer to.

If the prosecutor's office wasn't trying to be as transparent as possible, they could have simply penned a press release.

[bucksfan2]

I have a feeling this will be like the Ben Roethlisberger presser. Winston will be condemned but the state's attorney's office will not have enough evidence to prosecute.

[JaxRed]

Where there will always be some that blame him no matter what, I expect this to be the opposite, that most reasonable people will come to the conclusion that he is innocent.

[traderumor]

If there was not evidence of an assault, I will be happy if that is indeed the truth. I hope the truth, whatever that was, was found. I hope it was just unfounded charges by the other party for whatever reason, if that is what the truth is. If she was assaulted and the truth was not found in the evidence, for whatever reason, it's too bad that he did not admit he was guilty.

Guess we'll see where its going here in 15 minutes.

[cumberlandreds]

Winston not charged.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/report-jameis-winston-not-charged-sexual-assault-case-185031733--ncaaf.html

[19braves77]

That was a very uncomfortable press conference with all the jokes and laughing. I know where my daughter will not be going even though her mom spent three years there.

[medford]

famous jamis is no longer infamous???

No matter the truth, either Jamis' name has been dragged thru the mud for no legall wrong doing on his end (morally is perhaps another question) or the accuser's life has likely been made a living hell while the other guy got off.

In the end, there are no winners here, I just hope the decision to not press charges is the correct decision, I doubt we'll ever know for sure. I'm glad a decesion was made prior to this weekend though. Would certainly be a shame for him to be charged and declared inelgible after the ACC championship game and prior to their bowl game.

Assuming Jamis goes on to win the Heisman now and get a spot in the national title game, gonna be interesting how it affects his "banquet table" month before the bowl game. Typically Heisman winners struggle in their bowl games partially due to all of the travel and banquets they have to attend.

[New York Red]

Where there will always be some that blame him no matter what, I expect this to be the opposite, that most reasonable people will come to the conclusion that he is innocent.
I think most reasonable people won't conclude guilt or innocence, just as the State Attorney's office didn't. Willie Meggs clearly stated that they didn't charge Winston because they didn't feel they had enough evidence for a conviction. So, now that we know that, it would be silly for any reasonable person to conclude innocence or guilt.

What I don't get is, how the police chief can stand in the background smiling and laughing throughout this press conference. Regardless of the outcome, you'd think there'd be a little more professionalism. But then again, considering how the PD handled this from the beginning, I shouldn't be surprised at the joviality being displayed now.

[traderumor]

I think most reasonable people won't conclude guilt or innocence, just as the State Attorney's office didn't. Willie Meggs clearly stated that they didn't charge Winston because they didn't feel they had enough evidence for a conviction. So, now that we know that, it would be silly for any reasonable person to conclude innocence or guilt.

What I don't get is, how the police chief can stand in the background smiling and laughing throughout this press conference. Regardless of the outcome, you'd think there'd be a little more professionalism. But then again, considering how the PD handled this from the beginning, I shouldn't be surprised at the joviality being displayed now.


That was a very uncomfortable press conference with all the jokes and laughing. I know where my daughter will not be going even though her mom spent three years there.Yea, it sure does show disrespect to the accuser, who has maintained that it was an assault. Not a good time for snicker, snicker, wink, wink.

[jojo]

One thing we know from the presser that I didn't know before hand was that there was more than 1 male's DNA in the garments tested.

[Tom Servo]

I have no dog in this fight, I just think the whole thing is a shame. Only Jameis Winston knows what really happened, and I suppose it comes down to whether you want to believe he acted appropriately or not. I really don't know but either way, it is something that will stay with him and the girl for the rest of their lives, all because of one night.

[Sea Ray]

One thing we know from the presser that I didn't know before hand was that there was more than 1 male's DNA in the garments tested.

We know a couple other things...One is that she was intoxicated and it did hurt her case


If this gal was intoxicated it'll be harder for the prosecutor to get a conviction. As will the fact that she initially opted to not press charges


Her family has argued that she was not.


This is how:



In the warrants released Thursday, the woman said she had five to six shots at a Tallahassee bar and that her memory was “broken from that point forward"...Meggs said that the accuser's lack of memory was problematic in the case. "She can't remember some of the things," he said.

[Sea Ray]

I have no dog in this fight, I just think the whole thing is a shame. Only Jameis Winston knows what really happened, and I suppose it comes down to whether you want to believe he acted appropriately or not. I really don't know but either way, it is something that will stay with him and the girl for the rest of their lives, all because of one night.

It really comes down to whether she "wanted it" or not and I'm sure Jameis is sure she did

[WMR]

Thread title change, plz.

[WVRed]

I'm starting to think this is more of a gold digger type of situation than actual rape. Kobe Bryant all over again if anything.

[Caveat Emperor]

I stand by my original point:

It's completely unfair to Winston that his name was dragged through the mud and tried in the court of public opinion only to have no charges filed.

[jojo]

We know a couple other things...One is that she was intoxicated and it did hurt her case






This is how:

If it's true that she as drunk then one can infer a couple of things:
1) the family's press releases can not be treated as truthful
2) presumably her blood alcohol content corroborated her story of being drunk, or it did not which would actually be more damaging to her credibility
3) given her testimony includes memory lapses, one wonders if her blood was analyzed for the presence of a date rape drug.

[MWM]

I'm starting to think this is more of a gold digger type of situation than actual rape.

What basis could you possibly have for this? This is a horrible accusation. I'm not saying it's not possible, but to just throw it out there without any basis for it is pretty bad, IMO.

I'm not suggesting I believe she was raped. But unless you know more than what's being reported, I don't see how it's possible to make a determination either way. And to assume this particular individual would fabricate a rape, got to the hospital, go the the police, etc... all for financial gain (for someone who isn't even rich yet) is pretty low, IMO.

I think it would be equally poor form to assume that Winston is guilty. If we learn more in the coming days, then maybe conclusions can be drawn. But as of now, I don't see how you could reach one.

[Sea Ray]

If it's true that she as drunk then one can infer a couple of things:
1) the family's press releases can not be treated as truthful
2) presumably her blood alcohol content corroborated her story of being drunk, or it did not which would actually be more damaging to her credibility
3) given her testimony includes memory lapses, one wonders if her blood was analyzed for the presence of a date rape drug.

According to this, she admitted to having 6 shots at the bar:

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/story/2013-12-05/jameis-winston-not-charged-rape-sexual-assault-fsu-quarterback-heisman?icid=maing-grid7%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl6%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D415005

That would impair the memory of most young females

[Yachtzee]

If the prosecutor felt he didn't have the evidence to go forward, that's fine. I think my biggest problem is the unfairness of the system. I deal with clients who are poor. Often they get arrested and charged based on little more than a statment from the victim. They sit in jail and await bond while they maintain their innocence. If they can't make bond, they sit in jail. Then you wait for the lab results to come back. In the meantime, the prosecutor makes an offer that lets them out if they plead. But no one cares because they're poor. On the other hand, football guy has not only a victim statement but a rape kit has been done. Not only does he not get arrested, he's not even charged and the detectives are cautioning the victim about going forward even before they've gotten all the evidence back. It's only after news leaks that the rape kit came back positive with his DNA when the case is referred to a special prosecutor. By then so much time has passed that you're going to have problems with witness testimony because the memories are no longer fresh. So I won't say that Wilson got away with something, but I think we shouldn't bash the victim. Rather, I have serious questions about how the PD handled the case. Maybe if things had been handled better from the PD perspective, Wilson would have still not been charged, but we wouldn't have had all this business played out in the media.

[dabvu2498]

What basis could you possibly have for this? This is a horrible accusation. I'm not saying it's not possible, but to just throw it out there without any basis for it is pretty bad, IMO.

I'm not suggesting I believe she was raped. But unless you know more than what's being reported, I don't see how it's possible to make a determination either way. And to assume this particular individual would fabricate a rape, got to the hospital, go the the police, etc... all for financial gain (for someone who isn't even rich yet) is pretty low, IMO.

Not to mention that Winston isn't rich (yet). Or at least he doesn't have "pro athlete money."

[traderumor]

I stand by my original point:

It's completely unfair to Winston that his name was dragged through the mud and tried in the court of public opinion only to have no charges filed.Yea, poor Jameis, slept with a drunk girl, he's probably the only one that knows what happened, and the poor guy has to deal with this instead of playing FOOTBALL. Yea, that's an interesting perspective.

Meanwhile, the girl had to leave school because, regardless of what happened, she had to be asking for it, right? If she just hadn't been doing shots, none of this would have ever happened. And she was with another guy, maybe? What a sleeze. Gold digger.

Yea, poor Jameis. Good thing he can concentrate on "me play football" now.

[JaxRed]

She supposedly had impaired memory from drinking and/or drugs. But the toxicology reports showed almost no alcohol and no drugs (including date rape) so her story started falling apart there.

And apparently there were 2 witnesses who said it was voluntary.

[bucksfan2]

I don't buy the gold digger angle. Winston was a college student, a high profile college student, but how much money does he actually have to his name? This isn't like Kobe where he was a multi millionaire and there could be some hush money.

Secondly Winston's DNA was present meaning that some form of sexual contact happened. The woman shortly after went and said she was raped and had a rape kit done. She could have been embarrassed, she could have been fearful, or she could have had ulterior motives. We don't know this.

If this were my daughter I would be pissed. I would be unhappy with the Tallahassee police and unhappy with the FSU athletic department. In this country you are innocent until proven guilty, something that we all should cherish, but in this case it appears as if you get special treatment if you are a FSU athlete.

[Chip R]

When I saw yesterday that the TPD called a presser over this I just shook my head and said, "Really?" Like jojo said, they could have just done a press release and have been done with it. But I suppose they wanted their 15 minutes of fame. :thumbdown:

[New York Red]

Apparently the two witnesses are fellow members of the football team, so I don't put a lot of stock in their statements. My opinion is the same as before. Jameis Winston was given preferential treatment, the police department bungled it about as badly as possible, and there's still going to be plenty of unanswered questions. To me, "inconclusive" means exactly that. The prosecution felt they couldn't prove guilt. It doesn't mean they don't think a crime occurred.

The lasting memory for me will be the way the state attorney, the police chief and the defense attorney acted in today's press conferences. From the jovial nature of Meggs' presser, with the police chief smiling and laughing throughout, to the FSU students goofing off in the background and pretending to be reporters during the defense attorney's press conference, the whole day seemed to be treated as a joke.

None of us know anything in regards to guilt or innocence, but I feel sorry for the next girl who has to go through this process in that county.

[Caveat Emperor]

Yea, poor Jameis, slept with a drunk girl, he's probably the only one that knows what happened, and the poor guy has to deal with this instead of playing FOOTBALL. Yea, that's an interesting perspective.

Meanwhile, the girl had to leave school because, regardless of what happened, she had to be asking for it, right? If she just hadn't been doing shots, none of this would have ever happened. And she was with another guy, maybe? What a sleeze. Gold digger.

Yea, poor Jameis. Good thing he can concentrate on "me play football" now.

A man's name was dragged through the mud and he was forced to confront public accusation that he was a rapist for months only to now get the word that the D.A. felt there wasn't sufficient evidence to prosecute.

Yeah, I don't see how you can't feel sympathy with a man having to deal with that -- especially if this (as has been suggested in reports by witnesses) was a "buyers remorse" rape allegation.

[New York Red]

A man's name was dragged through the mud and he was forced to confront public accusation that he was a rapist for months only to now get the word that the D.A. felt there wasn't sufficient evidence to prosecute.
He could have made a statement of innocence at any time, if he cared about public perception. He could have also agreed to cooperate with police, if he cared about speeding up the process. Finally, Willie Meggs didn't declare Winston innocent. His office determined it was inconclusive. Anyone concluding otherwise is ignoring everything that was said today.

This kid is going to end up with a Heisman Trophy, probably a national championship and will forever be a hero in Florida. The accuser has already had to withdraw from school and will likely have to move out of state. Sorry if I'm not feeling too bad for Jameis Winston right now.

[Roy Tucker]

Yeah, whatever went on, I don't think it was exactly wholesome.

Alcohol and hormones and inexperience and stupidity and youth are all not a very good combination. I got a lot of stories from when I was 18-21 that I cringe at now.

[Yachtzee]

A man's name was dragged through the mud and he was forced to confront public accusation that he was a rapist for months only to now get the word that the D.A. felt there wasn't sufficient evidence to prosecute.

Yeah, I don't see how you can't feel sympathy with a man having to deal with that -- especially if this (as has been suggested in reports by witnesses) was a "buyers remorse" rape allegation.

At least he got a big presser saying he wasn't going to be charged. We had a guy up here who was accused of a hit and run severely injuring a 4 year old in a school zone. For a week his name was splashed all over the papers and tv news. Later it turns out it was a case of mistaken identity. Did he get a big presser saying he wasn't going to be charged? Nope. Brief mention in the paper.

Somehow I suspect that the PR people are already spinning this to enhance his stature. I'd be willing to bet we see ESPN and the other networks will air pieces on Winston before the BCS Championship game going on about his struggle to overcome adversity.

[traderumor]

A man's name was dragged through the mud and he was forced to confront public accusation that he was a rapist for months only to now get the word that the D.A. felt there wasn't sufficient evidence to prosecute.

Yeah, I don't see how you can't feel sympathy with a man having to deal with that -- especially if this (as has been suggested in reports by witnesses) was a "buyers remorse" rape allegation.

Now why would I have sympathy for unmarried college students having sex and it ending up being a national story? If you don't want to be a news story, don't sleep around. If you don't want to pay half a million a year in child support, don't sleep around. At least that's what I'd be telling these young men if I were their coach.

[jojo]

He could have made a statement of innocence at any time, if he cared about public perception. He could have also agreed to cooperate with police, if he cared about speeding up the process. Finally, Willie Meggs didn't declare Winston innocent. His office determined it was inconclusive. Anyone concluding otherwise is ignoring everything that was said today.

This kid is going to end up with a Heisman Trophy, probably a national championship and will forever be a hero in Florida. The accuser has already had to withdraw from school and will likely have to move out of state. Sorry if I'm not feeling too bad for Jameis Winston right now.

He did cooperate with police. He just was very smart and did what any citizen should do- he talked to the police through his lawyer.

[WVRed]

What basis could you possibly have for this? This is a horrible accusation. I'm not saying it's not possible, but to just throw it out there without any basis for it is pretty bad, IMO.

I'm not suggesting I believe she was raped. But unless you know more than what's being reported, I don't see how it's possible to make a determination either way. And to assume this particular individual would fabricate a rape, got to the hospital, go the the police, etc... all for financial gain (for someone who isn't even rich yet) is pretty low, IMO.

I think it would be equally poor form to assume that Winston is guilty. If we learn more in the coming days, then maybe conclusions can be drawn. But as of now, I don't see how you could reach one.

Is it any more horrible to suggest that the Tallahassee PD is giving Winston special treatment? Because that seems to be the theme in this thread.

Jameis Winston= Guilty until proven innocent. I think people want to see a star athlete fall, as long as they don't wear Scarlet & Gray.

[dougdirt]

Is it any more horrible to suggest that the Tallahassee PD is giving Winston special treatment? Because that seems to be the theme in this thread.

Jameis Winston= Guilty until proven innocent. I think people want to see a star athlete fall, as long as they don't wear Scarlet & Gray.

I don't want to see any of them fall because they are athletes. I want to see them fall IF they are guilty.

[New York Red]

He did cooperate with police. He just was very smart and did what any citizen should do- he talked to the police through his lawyer.
Of course he lawyered up, as anyone in his position would do (given they have the money). That in no way is the same thing as him fully cooperating with the investigation.

[New York Red]

Is it any more horrible to suggest that the Tallahassee PD is giving Winston special treatment? Because that seems to be the theme in this thread.

Jameis Winston= Guilty until proven innocent. I think people want to see a star athlete fall, as long as they don't wear Scarlet & Gray.
I don't see this as a guilty until proven innocent situation at all. This was an inconclusive until proven otherwise case. I do think he was definitely given preferential treatment compared to how the average Joe off the streets of Tallahassee would have been treated. Watching the police chief smile and giggle his way through the presser today spoke volumes. He came across as more an FSU cheerleader than an officer who'd poorly investigated a rape charge.

[WVRed]

I don't want to see any of them fall because they are athletes. I want to see them fall IF they are guilty.

As do I but I kinda wonder how the discussion would be going if it was "Insert Buckeye Here".

Winston isn't going to be charged so it basically goes back to being a witch hunt.

[MWM]

Is it any more horrible to suggest that the Tallahassee PD is giving Winston special treatment? Because that seems to be the theme in this thread.

Jameis Winston= Guilty until proven innocent. I think people want to see a star athlete fall, as long as they don't wear Scarlet & Gray.

What does one have to do with the other?

[Yachtzee]

As do I but I kinda wonder how the discussion would be going if it was "Insert Buckeye Here".

Winston isn't going to be charged so it basically goes back to being a witch hunt.

I don't know about that. I seem to remember when Maurice Clarett had problems at Ohio State, a lot of Buckeye fans weren't happy with him and were glad to be done with him when he tried to jump to the NFL early. Note also that Carlos Hyde was suspended for 3 games even though he was never charged with assault, yet nobody was talking about a witch hunt there.

There will always be fans of sports teams who will do anything to rationalize the behavior of their favorite players. But if you keep trying to hold up athletes as heroes, you're bound to be disappointed.

[jojo]

Of course he lawyered up, as anyone in his position would do (given they have the money). That in no way is the same thing as him fully cooperating with the investigation.

Please provide proof that he didn't cooperate fully with the police.

[MWM]

I'd lawyer up if I were completely innocent and being accused of such a thing. Hell, I'd lawyer up especially if I were innocent. But that's just me.

[New York Red]

Please provide proof that he didn't cooperate fully with the police.
In the presser today, didn't Meggs clearly state they wanted to interview Winston, but he declined? That doesn't sound like full cooperation to me. If he's not Jameis Winston, no way this plays out the same way. The result likely would have been the same, but the handling of it? No chance.

[jojo]

I'd lawyer up if I were completely innocent and being accused of such a thing. Hell, I'd lawyer up especially if I were innocent. But that's just me.

Exactly. The best way to be falsely convicted is to talk with detectives for hours on end without representation.

It's why the accuser's story was rejected....the prosecutor couldn't figure out which one to go with.

[traderumor]

Is it any more horrible to suggest that the Tallahassee PD is giving Winston special treatment? Because that seems to be the theme in this thread.

Jameis Winston= Guilty until proven innocent. I think people want to see a star athlete fall, as long as they don't wear Scarlet & Gray.That's not what I said at all if you look back a few posts, right before the announcement. I would rather it be the truth that whatever happened, it was not an assault and the two young people take care of their own character issues that led to this incident in the first place. Regardless of whether the culture accepts gratuitous sex between acquaintances, or because they are "dating," that doesn't mean its a wise choice. Obviously its a story because of who Jameis Winston is, but that doesn't mean the moral issues of the whole mess change.

[MWM]

Interesting read in the link below. I know it's deadspin and I'm not posting it because I agree with the author and think Winston guilty. I don't have an opinion either way, and it's clear from the author's back story that she is going to be inclined to fall on the side of the accuser in these cases.

But it is a different perspective on how the process works and why so many women don't follow through with the legal process. Also, it's the first I've read about some of the other evidence.

http://deadspin.com/why-i-believe-jameis-winstons-accuser-1479782169

[Oexak]

Interesting read in the link below. I know it's deadspin and I'm not posting it because I agree with the author and think Winston guilty. I don't have an opinion either way, and it's clear from the author's back story that she is going to be inclined to fall on the side of the accuser in these cases.

But it is a different perspective on how the process works and why so many women don't follow through with the legal process. Also, it's the first I've read about some of the other evidence.

http://deadspin.com/why-i-believe-jameis-winstons-accuser-1479782169

Agree, well that is how system normally works

[Caveat Emperor]

Now why would I have sympathy for unmarried college students having sex and it ending up being a national story? If you don't want to be a news story, don't sleep around. If you don't want to pay half a million a year in child support, don't sleep around. At least that's what I'd be telling these young men if I were their coach.

So it's a moral judgment -- if you choose to engage in sex, be prepared and accept the fact that someone can ruin your life with a mere allegation of rape?

Come on.

[Caveat Emperor]

In the presser today, didn't Meggs clearly state they wanted to interview Winston, but he declined? That doesn't sound like full cooperation to me. If he's not Jameis Winston, no way this plays out the same way. The result likely would have been the same, but the handling of it? No chance.

You'd be a certifiable fool to give an interview to the police without counsel present if you're being accused of a rape offense.

Many of these types of cases are highly charged, emotionally -- and there are definitely places where the mere allegation of rape plus some corroborating facts (facts you might provide in a statement you think is a claim of innocence) are enough for a D.A. to seek an indictment.

Once someone has been identified as a suspect, police interviews are designed to build cases and gather evidence against people, not eliminate them from consideration.

[New York Red]

Just saw this on Twitter:

Melanie Michael ‏@WTSPMelanie

BREAKING: Just spoke with family of Jameis Winston's accuser. Her lawyer plans to hold presser Friday. Family says, "It's gonna be good."

[traderumor]

Well, reviewing an article on the attorney's comments, it is an attack on the investigation. Gee, that's a bombshell.

What is sad is that the article is the accused's current side of the story, so USA Today attaches Jameis Winston's "career highlights" pics at the bottom of the article, lest we forget that he is a star football player for the top-ranked and NC favorite team. Very poor taste.

[jojo]

FSU under investigation for handling of Jameis Winston case"
The U.S. Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights has opened an investigation of Florida State University into whether its handling of the Jameis Winston rape allegations violated Title IX laws, according to a letter confirming the decision that was obtained by USA TODAY Sports.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/2014/04/03/jameis-winston-florida-state-rape-investigation-title-ix-civil-rights/7262359/

[dabvu2498]

Crab legs. Lol

[Caveat Emperor]

Free Seafood University.

[nmculbreth]

7051

[jojo]

I think this probably means that FSU isn't paying him....

[WrongVerb]

Oh dear lord. What an idiot. NFL teams don't want guys with character issues. Winston is costing himself millions with this petty crap.

[cumberlandreds]

Oh dear lord. What an idiot. NFL teams don't want guys with character issues. Winston is costing himself millions with this petty crap.

What happened? A booster give him a free meal at Red Lobster?

[IslandRed]

Accidental or not, there's a price to be paid for being a lunkhead in a... umm... fishbowl.

Having said that, after getting past the reflexive defensiveness/finger-wagging, the memes and comments on this are hilarious. There's something inherently ridiculous about nationally-televised press conferences over $32 in seafood anyway, so may as well have fun with it.

[WrongVerb]

What happened? A booster give him a free meal at Red Lobster?

Got cited for leaving a grocery store with a bunch of crab legs without paying for them.

[KronoRed]

He stole from a Publix...that's pure evil.

[cumberlandreds]

Got cited for leaving a grocery store with a bunch of crab legs without paying for them.

Maybe he thought it was part of the NCAA's new food allowance to the athletes. He may have thought he could go into any store and pick out what wanted and not pay for it. :)

[bucksfan2]

My wife and I were grocery shopping one day and checking out using a U-Scan aisle. I thought she paid, she though I paid, and we both walked out without paying. We didn't notice until we were in the car driving away. She ran back in and paid the bill. I am not saying Winston did this (I think he decided to use the Peter Warrick 5 finger discount) but it is possible that you can leave a grocery without paying.

[LoganBuck]

When I was in college 15 years ago, I lived next to a large grocery store. I needed shaving cream, and a couple other small things. I didn't get a cart, put the shaving cream in my winter coat pocket as I got some bread and lunchmeat. I paid for the bread and lunch meat, went home, and then the next day realized that I had the shaving cream still in my coat pocket, and had not paid for it. I didnt go back, because I figured I would get in trouble, or one of the poor workers would get in trouble for not seeing me. 15 years later I remember stealing $1.99 worth of shaving cream.

[WVRed]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/hear-burger-king-manager-tells-cops-florida-state-gb-jameis-winston-stealing-soda-article-1.1801658

Looks like somebody didn't learn their lesson.

[jojo]

http://www.jabooloses.com/

[KronoRed]

21 hours? coming out when suspended fully dressed was stupid, I wonder if he thought they would just put him in because of who he is.

[kaldaniels]

21 hours? coming out when suspended fully dressed was stupid, I wonder if he thought they would just put him in because of who he is.

Someone please give me hope FSU will get desparate and put him in in the second half. I want to see all hell break loose with the talking heads if that happens...is he eligible?

[WrongVerb]

Here's a different perspective (http://secexposed.wordpress.com/2014/09/23/why-espn-needs-you-to-hate-jameis-winston-and-the-florida-state-seminoles/) on the whole Jameis Winston and FSU situation.

[Chip R]

Here's a different perspective (http://secexposed.wordpress.com/2014/09/23/why-espn-needs-you-to-hate-jameis-winston-and-the-florida-state-seminoles/) on the whole Jameis Winston and FSU situation.

Well, that certainly was different.

[KronoRed]

No bias there ;)

[dougdirt]

Here's a different perspective (http://secexposed.wordpress.com/2014/09/23/why-espn-needs-you-to-hate-jameis-winston-and-the-florida-state-seminoles/) on the whole Jameis Winston and FSU situation.

Well duh.

[IslandRed]

I'm a Florida State guy, and even I thought that article was over the top.

Having said that, the reaction to the latest incident was also over the top. I had no problem with him being suspended -- eventually, being a recidivist lunkhead had to have consequences -- but like with the stuff happening in the NFL, it became a hot-take cesspool, with people competing to be the most outraged. That's why I rolled my eyes at the SEC conspiracy thing (even if some of the hottest takes on FSU routinely come from people employed by the SEC Network). It's just the way the media operates today and it's up to Winston to stop giving them ammo.

[jojo]

I'm a Florida State guy, and even I thought that article was over the top.

Having said that, the reaction to the latest incident was also over the top. I had no problem with him being suspended -- eventually, being a recidivist lunkhead had to have consequences -- but like with the stuff happening in the NFL, it became a hot-take cesspool, with people competing to be the most outraged. That's why I rolled my eyes at the SEC conspiracy thing (even if some of the hottest takes on FSU routinely come from people employed by the SEC Network). It's just the way the media operates today and it's up to Winston to stop giving them ammo.

The guy is one of the highest profile college football players in the nation. He was accused of rape at the height of a championship season. His university is embroiled in a title iX case that will get very public with a civil suit attached. He has since had a litany of stupid culminating in him climbing upon a table in the student union and screaming a meme that demeans women at the height of a media storm focusing upon football players that devalue women.

Clearly the SEC is out to get FSU.

They are but it's because he saw the mother ship land in Hoover to drop off more 5 star aliens that play defensive tackle. This has nothing to do with championships. He saw too much.

[Roy Tucker]

It takes time for people to grow up. There is no way around that. And Winston is doing what most 18-20 year old college lunkheads kids do. Trying lots of things, make some bad decisions, and hopefully learn from them.

I saw this in my kids when they were this age. They could write a brilliant paper, solve a difficult calculus problem, debate politics articulately, but god almighty, sometimes they did the stupidest damn things and made the worst decisions.

But they eventually worked it out and found their path. Winston is doing the same thing only on a big national stage. He just needs to get his head out of his butt.

[Sea Ray]

It takes time for people to grow up. There is no way around that. And Winston is doing what most 18-20 year old college lunkheads kids do. Trying lots of things, make some bad decisions, and hopefully learn from them.

I saw this in my kids when they were this age. They could write a brilliant paper, solve a difficult calculus problem, debate politics articulately, but god almighty, sometimes they did the stupidest damn things and made the worst decisions.

But they eventually worked it out and found their path. Winston is doing the same thing only on a big national stage. He just needs to get his head out of his butt.

I would agree with you up to the point of the sexual assault. Sure we all make decisions at that age that make us cringe later on but for most of us that does not include accusations of sexual assault. That doesn't happen to all of us

[Roy Tucker]

I would agree with you up to the point of the sexual assault. Sure we all make decisions at that age that make us cringe later on but for most of us that does not include accusations of sexual assault. That doesn't happen to all of us

Agreed.

[Chip R]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/12/us/florida-state-football-casts-shadow-over-tallahassee-justice.html?ref=ncaafootball&_r=0

[jojo]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/12/us/florida-state-football-casts-shadow-over-tallahassee-justice.html?ref=ncaafootball&_r=0

http://www.si.com/college-football/2014/10/13/florida-state-jimbo-fisher-jameis-winston-investigation


There is no victim because there was no crime," said Fisher. "This country is based on innocent until proven guilty. Not guilty until proven innocent.

I think sometimes a coach can get too close to the football part of it and not appreciate the 95% of the rest of it.

Meanwhile SI suggests that Winston's best move might be to drop out of FSU before the discipline hearing reaches a conclusion.

http://www.si.com/college-football/2014/10/11/jameis-winston-florida-state-disciplinary-hearing

Contemplate that for a second and just imagine if Winston actually did drop out.....

[Boston Red]

When FSU visits Louisville on October 30, I don't expect Winston to be in the Noles' travel party.

[jojo]

When FSU visits Louisville on October 30, I don't expect Winston to be in the Noles' travel party.

Things seem to be building up steam in that direction....

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/11697064/florida-state-seminoles-look-jameis-winston-autographs


Even as Florida State coach Jimbo Fisher says he believes quarterback Jameis Winston didn't sign autographs for money, a source tells ESPN that the university's athletic compliance department has begun to look into how so many Winston autographs were authenticated by a single company.

[improbus]

http://www.si.com/college-football/2014/10/13/florida-state-jimbo-fisher-jameis-winston-investigation



I think sometimes a coach can get too close to the football part of it and not appreciate the 95% of the rest of it.

Meanwhile SI suggests that Winston's best move might be to drop out of FSU before the discipline hearing reaches a conclusion.

http://www.si.com/college-football/2014/10/11/jameis-winston-florida-state-disciplinary-hearing

Contemplate that for a second and just imagine if Winston actually did drop out.....

Jumbo is absolutely right in that regard. If we don't want to wait for the justice system to do its job, why have it? It is not fair to either Winston or the accuser if we take justice into our own hands.

The issue of the moment is that the school and local police seem to have interfered with the justice system. That is not on Jameis. The adults are the ones who caused that particular problem. He should not have to pay for that transgression.

If it comes out that the local authorities inhibited justice, they will pay and then the allegations against Winston can be resolved and justice served.

I really don't like this climate in sports where people are comdemned before given a chance to prove their innocence. None of us would want that for ourselves.

[kaldaniels]

At this rate you can't help but wonder how well FSU has that BCS Trophy bolted down in its trophy case.

[kaldaniels]

Jumbo is absolutely right in that regard. If we don't want to wait for the justice system to do its job, why have it? It is not fair to either Winston or the accuser if we take justice into our own hands.

The issue of the moment is that the school and local police seem to have interfered with the justice system. That is not on Jameis. The adults are the ones who caused that particular problem. He should not have to pay for that transgression.

If it comes out that the local authorities inhibited justice, they will pay and then the allegations against Winston can be resolved and justice served.

I really don't like this climate in sports where people are comdemned before given a chance to prove their innocence. None of us would want that for ourselves.

Yes and no.

There are no do-overs in athletic events. So if you let the crooks play while justice is dragged out, it does no good to punish after the games have been played. But your point is fair as well.

[improbus]

Yes and no.

There are no do-overs in athletic events. So if you let the crooks play while justice is dragged out, it does no good to punish after the games have been played. But your point is fair as well.
I love sports, but our obsession with who wins and loses clouds our judgment here. Whether he plays or not is a big deal in the world of sports, but it shouldn't be questioned when it comes to civil rights.

Now, if he is convicted, we will look at him (and his team) as if he were OJ. He will be a pariah and that team will be infamous. It is the price of social justice.

[kaldaniels]

I love sports, but our obsession with who wins and loses clouds our judgment here. Whether he plays or not is a big deal in the world of sports, but it shouldn't be questioned when it comes to civil rights.

Now, if he is convicted, we will look at him (and his team) as if he were OJ. He will be a pariah and that team will be infamous. It is the price of social justice.

So anyone that is out on bail, should be allowed to return to their profession, no matter what...until proven guilty?

Not going to debate your answer as the question has a political bent, but I do want to know where you are coming from with your Winston opinion.

[improbus]

So anyone that is out on bail, should be allowed to return to their profession, no matter what...until proven guilty?

Not going to debate your answer as the question has a political bent, but I do want to know where you are coming from with your Winston opinion.

I don't believe he is out on bail. He would have to be charged.

[kaldaniels]

I don't believe he is out on bail. He would have to be charged.

Forgive the poor metaphor. Perhaps I don't understand your viewpoint accurately. Do you have any problem with FSU or the NCAA sitting him, or someone like him, while things get sorted out?

[nmculbreth]

I love sports, but our obsession with who wins and loses clouds our judgment here. Whether he plays or not is a big deal in the world of sports, but it shouldn't be questioned when it comes to civil rights.

Now, if he is convicted, we will look at him (and his team) as if he were OJ. He will be a pariah and that team will be infamous. It is the price of social justice.

While I can understand the sentiment, playing college football isn't an inalienable right and FSU (or the NCAA) shouldn't need to meet the criminal burden of proof in order to remove Jameis Winston from the football team. Maybe there isn't enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he committed sexual assault, but given the serious nature of the alleged crime I think it's perfectly reasonable to remove him from the football team (or the university itself) if the preponderance of the evidence indicates guilt.

I don't know if Jameis Winston did anything improper to his accuser. I do know that trouble seems to follow Jameis Winston around and at some point he simply becomes more trouble than he's worth. Given Jimbo Fisher's response it seems like it hasn't gotten to that point for FSU but Winston's inability to stay out of trouble makes me think it's just a matter of time before it reaches that tipping point.

[jojo]

While I can understand the sentiment, playing college football isn't an inalienable right and FSU (or the NCAA) shouldn't need to meet the criminal burden of proof in order to remove Jameis Winston from the football team. Maybe there isn't enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he committed sexual assault, but given the serious nature of the alleged crime I think it's perfectly reasonable to remove him from the football team (or the university itself) if the preponderance of the evidence indicates guilt.

I don't know if Jameis Winston did anything improper to his accuser. I do know that trouble seems to follow Jameis Winston around and at some point he simply becomes more trouble than he's worth. Given Jimbo Fisher's response it seems like it hasn't gotten to that point for FSU but Winston's inability to stay out of trouble makes me think it's just a matter of time before it reaches that tipping point.

Even if it wasn't rape, having sex while letting your buddies film it is enough to get you booted. Pretty clearly, the victim is not going to stipulate that she consented to letting them watch or tape it.

[jojo]

Apparently the NCAA is investigating 340 autographs.

[improbus]

While I can understand the sentiment, playing college football isn't an inalienable right and FSU (or the NCAA) shouldn't need to meet the criminal burden of proof in order to remove Jameis Winston from the football team. Maybe there isn't enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he committed sexual assault, but given the serious nature of the alleged crime I think it's perfectly reasonable to remove him from the football team (or the university itself) if the preponderance of the evidence indicates guilt.
That is all completely understandable. The key is the preponderance of evidence part. If the school believes he is guilty, kick him out. But they need to be sure. Anything else would be a PR move to save face and would be wrong.

I don't know if Jameis Winston did anything improper to his accuser. I do know that trouble seems to follow Jameis Winston around and at some point he simply becomes more trouble than he's worth. Given Jimbo Fisher's response it seems like it hasn't gotten to that point for FSU but Winston's inability to stay out of trouble makes me think it's just a matter of time before it reaches that tipping point.
Only one alleged action is worth even talking about. The others either are breaking arbitrarily stupid rules (signing autographs for money), or things Dennis the Menace might get in trouble for (shooting windows with a BB gun).

[improbus]

Forgive the poor metaphor. Perhaps I don't understand your viewpoint accurately. Do you have any problem with FSU or the NCAA sitting him, or someone like him, while things get sorted out?
I don't want the NCAA getting involved. I don't trust their judgment. They tend to thunder in on something and then apologize for coming in to harshly a few years later.

[IslandRed]

Apparently the NCAA is investigating 340 autographs.

That few?

Kidding aside, I don't know if he took money or not, but a dealer would have to be a chump for pay for his signature. It's the easiest autograph to get in the history of Tallahassee. Besides the big organized football events, every baseball game (even on the road) turns into a mini-Fan Day and he'll stand there for up to half an hour before the game signing pretty much anything. I guess it's no surprise to anyone by now that he loves the attention.

[Hoosier Red]

Jumbo is absolutely right in that regard. If we don't want to wait for the justice system to do its job, why have it? It is not fair to either Winston or the accuser if we take justice into our own hands.

The issue of the moment is that the school and local police seem to have interfered with the justice system. That is not on Jameis. The adults are the ones who caused that particular problem. He should not have to pay for that transgression.

If it comes out that the local authorities inhibited justice, they will pay and then the allegations against Winston can be resolved and justice served.

I really don't like this climate in sports where people are comdemned before given a chance to prove their innocence. None of us would want that for ourselves.

I get that the court of public opinion isn't subject to the same burden of proof as the criminal court, but isn't innocent until proven guilty a pretty useful standard anyway? Perhaps you don't need to be proven guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt" but a person, no matter how famous, should have to be proven guilty past some standard before the world piles up on him or her.

[Chip R]

So should a player be suspended while under investigation for a crime or only for a rules violation? Is it the job of a school or athletic program to punish an accused athlete or should that player continue to play until the system runs its course? The intent of the NCAA rules - paying players, gifts, etc. - is to keep teams from getting an unfair advantage over the other teams. Having an alleged criminal playing for a team doesn't give that team an unfair advantage.

[jojo]

So should a player be suspended while under investigation for a crime or only for a rules violation? Is it the job of a school or athletic program to punish an accused athlete or should that player continue to play until the system runs its course? The intent of the NCAA rules - paying players, gifts, etc. - is to keep teams from getting an unfair advantage over the other teams. Having an alleged criminal playing for a team doesn't give that team an unfair advantage.

The NCAA should step in if there are impermissible special benefits received as a result of his status as a student athlete. The university steps in because the student's eligibility is in jeopardy.

The university should step in if there are student conduct issues. That's why the university suspends players for legal issues. The university also suspends players if their conduct in some way impairs the rights/protections of other students. Clearly videotaping a sex act without consent constitutes such an act. I don't know any university that wouldn't suspend a player who is charged with a felony. That's kind of the scandal associated with Winston. He was never arrested/charged with a felony and many believe it was because the police and university conspired to prevent the investigation that could've led to his arrest. This is pretty bad.

[MWM]

That is all completely understandable. The key is the preponderance of evidence part. If the school believes he is guilty, kick him out. But they need to be sure. Anything else would be a PR move to save face and would be wrong.


I don't think making a move for PR purposes is necessarily wrong. These universities have reputations and a brand to protect just like businesses. Every time Winston takes the field, he's representing their institution to the public. They have every right to protect that image and choose to not associate with people who could tarnish that image, which could potentially have a detrimental impact on their ability to achieve the goals the university exists to achieve to begin with. I wouldn't blame them for saying the cost of his continued association with the school has finally outweighed the benefit.

[kpresidente]

I don't think making a move for PR purposes is necessarily wrong. These universities have reputations and a brand to protect just like businesses. Every time Winston takes the field, he's representing their institution to the public. They have every right to protect that image and choose to not associate with people who could tarnish that image, which could potentially have a detrimental impact on their ability to achieve the goals the university exists to achieve to begin with. I wouldn't blame them for saying the cost of his continued association with the school has finally outweighed the benefit.

It may be understandable from the University's standpoint, but if they kick a kid out of school just to satisfy a frenzied mob of witch-hunters with a factitious agenda, it would be certainly be wrong in the grand scheme of things.

[MWM]

It may be understandable from the University's standpoint, but if they kick a kid out of school just to satisfy a frenzied mob of witch-hunters with a factitious agenda, it would be certainly be wrong in the grand scheme of things.

Kicking a kid out of school without sufficient evidence that rules or codes or conduct were broken might not be the right thing to do. But as someone already mentioned, playing football for the university is not a right. Removing him from the playing field where he represents the university to the public, at least until the evidence is fully gathered and analyzed, is well within reason to me. He can still continue his education until it's resolved, but I wouldn't want him representing my alma mater right now in the public arena.

[19braves77]

If you really want to know how these signings are organized and how the athlete is getting the money it goes like this. Dealer gets in contact with a players relative. Dealer and relative work out the number of items signed and the price. Dealer wants a video present because he will not be present to see items signed. Relative has player X come over and sign the items. Relative then turns over the signed items to dealer and dealer gives cash to relative. Who actually keeps the money is anybody s guess.

[Sea Ray]

If you really want to know how these signings are organized and how the athlete is getting the money it goes like this. Dealer gets in contact with a players relative. Dealer and relative work out the number of items signed and the price. Dealer wants a video present because he will not be present to see items signed. Relative has player X come over and sign the items. Relative then turns over the signed items to dealer and dealer gives cash to relative. Who actually keeps the money is anybody s guess.

My question is how does the dealer write off the cash payment to the family?

[nmculbreth]

My question is how does the dealer write off the cash payment to the family?

Does the dealer need to hide the expense? They're not committing any sort of crime and they're not under any legal obligation to cooperate with any NCAA investigations, so I'm not sure they'd need to go to any great lengths to hide their expenses.

That said they were inclined to hide their involvement all they'd need to do is tell the player's intermediary what they're looking for and then simply buy the signed memorabilia for more than the cost of the unsigned stuff.

[Chip R]

The comptroller of FSU's booster club may be an embezzler.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/11626816/florida-state-seminoles-booster-sanford-lovingood-dismissed-grand-theft-charge

[IslandRed]

The comptroller of FSU's booster club may be an embezzler.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/11626816/florida-state-seminoles-booster-sanford-lovingood-dismissed-grand-theft-charge

A friend of mine was up for that job. See, that's what they get for not asking my opinion.

[bucksfan2]

Does the dealer need to hide the expense? They're not committing any sort of crime and they're not under any legal obligation to cooperate with any NCAA investigations, so I'm not sure they'd need to go to any great lengths to hide their expenses.

That said they were inclined to hide their involvement all they'd need to do is tell the player's intermediary what they're looking for and then simply buy the signed memorabilia for more than the cost of the unsigned stuff.

The dealer needs to hide the money because that is the easiest thing to track.

[LoganBuck]

My question is how does the dealer write off the cash payment to the family?

This. Tax ramifications are eventually going to send someone to jail. The IRS doesn't like undocumented large sums of cash, going unaccounted for.

[jojo]

Florida State's Conspiracy of Jameis Winston Silence Has a Lot in Common With Penn State

http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/outkick-the-coverage/florida-state-s-conspiracy-of-jameis-winston-silence-has-a-lot-in-common-with-penn-state-101514

Tressel and OSU deserved the penalty that was handed down. To me this is many orders of magnitude more serious than what Tressel did at OSU.

[bucksfan2]

http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/outkick-the-coverage/florida-state-s-conspiracy-of-jameis-winston-silence-has-a-lot-in-common-with-penn-state-101514

Tressel and OSU deserved the penalty that was handed down. To me this is many orders of magnitude more serious than what Tressel did at OSU.

I just can't fathom what Jimbo Fisher is thinking. He has hitched his wagon to Winston as it has speed towards a cliff. The alleged rape was one thing that never should have been taken as lightly as FSU did, but in the end charges weren't filed. Then you had the stealing, the derogatory comments made, and now an allegation of signing autographs for money. For all of Winston's transgressions he received a 1 game suspension, that he made a mockery of. At this point you have to assume that Jamis is going to bring down Jimbo and potentially some higher up FSU officials. It is mind boggling to me that FSU hasn't been proactive like Georgia was and suspending Winston until they are able to clear his name in the autograph scandal. As for FSU's handling of the rape case, that is a whole different and troubling can of worms.

[RedTeamGo!]

Bet you money he gets suspended after the ND game. It is the most difficult game remaining on their schedule

[Boston Red]

Bet you money he gets suspended after the ND game. It is the most difficult game remaining on their schedule

They'd be underdogs at Louisville without Winston.

[RedTeamGo!]

They'd be underdogs at Louisville without Winston.

Probably, but 8pm National game of the week vs ND is a different animal

[Yachtzee]

So should a player be suspended while under investigation for a crime or only for a rules violation? Is it the job of a school or athletic program to punish an accused athlete or should that player continue to play until the system runs its course? The intent of the NCAA rules - paying players, gifts, etc. - is to keep teams from getting an unfair advantage over the other teams. Having an alleged criminal playing for a team doesn't give that team an unfair advantage.

Actually, many universities suspend students for alleged misdeeds on a regular basis. An example would be any instance in there is an allegation of alcohol or drug use in university housing. What happens is that the campus police get called and write citations for everyone present, regardless of whether they were involved in the consumption of drugs or alcohol. The university then puts everyone on suspension pending a hearing. Meanwhile, the cases are then handed over to the prosecutor's office, who then decides what to do with the cases. From my experience dealing with university students charged with crimes, the typical university response is to suspend first, ask questions later.

The notion of "innocent until proven guilty" is a great ideal that we should strive for as a society, but in reality only applies in the court system. People lose their jobs and get suspended from school all the time based on simply getting charged or just investigated for a crime. Employers and educators aren't required to abide by the burdens of proof we require of our justice system.

[Sea Ray]

I just can't fathom what Jimbo Fisher is thinking. He has hitched his wagon to Winston as it has speed towards a cliff. The alleged rape was one thing that never should have been taken as lightly as FSU did, but in the end charges weren't filed. Then you had the stealing, the derogatory comments made, and now an allegation of signing autographs for money. For all of Winston's transgressions he received a 1 game suspension, that he made a mockery of. At this point you have to assume that Jamis is going to bring down Jimbo and potentially some higher up FSU officials. It is mind boggling to me that FSU hasn't been proactive like Georgia was and suspending Winston until they are able to clear his name in the autograph scandal. As for FSU's handling of the rape case, that is a whole different and troubling can of worms.

Indeed they have hitched their wagon to Jameis Winston just like Auburn did with Cam Newton. They'd better be certain nothing comes of it.

[RedTeamGo!]

Worked out quite well for Auburn

[jojo]

Worked out quite well for Auburn

Primarily because there is virtually no simularity between the two situations.

[RedTeamGo!]

Primarily because there is virtually no simularity between the two situations.

I wasn't saying anything negative about Auburn, I was mostly just pointing out it was a silly comparison because Auburn did not get in trouble at all with Cam.

A better comparison is OSU hitching it's wagon to Terrelle Pryor

[puca]

I wasn't saying anything negative about Auburn, I was mostly just pointing out it was a silly comparison because Auburn did not get in trouble at all with Cam.

A better comparison is OSU hitching it's wagon to Terrelle Pryor

OSU's problem wasn't in the fact that they stood behind Pryor, it was because they didn't report a violation that there was paper (email) trail that proved they knew about.

[RedTeamGo!]

OSU's problem wasn't in the fact that they stood behind Pryor, it was because they didn't report a violation that there was paper (email) trail that proved they knew about.

Which is what it seems like Jimbo Fisher and FSU is doing. Deliberately covering up for their star QB.

I am a huge OSU fan, but what Tressel and the OSU football team did to cover up the Pryor tattoo thing was ridiculous.

[puca]

I wasn't saying anything negative about Auburn, I was mostly just pointing out it was a silly comparison because Auburn did not get in trouble at all with Cam.

A better comparison is OSU hitching it's wagon to Terrelle Pryor

OSU's problem wasn't in the fact that they stood behind Pryor, it was because they didn't report a violation that there was paper (email) trail that proved they knew about.

[improbus]

I just can't fathom what Jimbo Fisher is thinking. He has hitched his wagon to Winston as it has speed towards a cliff. The alleged rape was one thing that never should have been taken as lightly as FSU did, but in the end charges weren't filed. Then you had the stealing, the derogatory comments made, and now an allegation of signing autographs for money. For all of Winston's transgressions he received a 1 game suspension, that he made a mockery of. At this point you have to assume that Jamis is going to bring down Jimbo and potentially some higher up FSU officials. It is mind boggling to me that FSU hasn't been proactive like Georgia was and suspending Winston until they are able to clear his name in the autograph scandal. As for FSU's handling of the rape case, that is a whole different and troubling can of worms.
And what does Jimbo tell future recruits?
Jimbo: "Well, we have a family atmosphere at Florida State."
Recruit: "What about that time you dumped a Heisman Trophy winner because of allegations?"
Jimbo: "That's different. My job was at stake."
Recruit: "And what about my future, coach?"
Jimbo: "Then don't sign any autographs for money...allegedly."
Recruit: "But don't you make more than the governor of Florida, coach? I think you will be okay if you get fired. Every coach seems to get another job. Where would I end up, some Junior College in the Inland Empire?"
Jimbo: "Yeah, but still. Family atmosphere."

[Boston Red]

And what does Jimbo tell future recruits?
Jimbo: "Well, we have a family atmosphere at Florida State."
Recruit: "What about that time you dumped a Heisman Trophy winner because of allegations?"

Jimbo: "It had been clearly established that kid was dumber than a trailer full of Palins."
Recruit: "Good point."

[19braves77]

Recruit: What about Winston ? You let him go.
Fisher: I rather lose with a bunch of good kids then win with a bunch of bad kids.
Recruit: Never mind. I signing with Miami.

[RiverRat13]

And what does Jimbo tell future recruits?
Jimbo: "Well, we have a family atmosphere at Florida State."
Recruit: "What about that time you dumped a Heisman Trophy winner because of allegations?"
Jimbo: "That's different. My job was at stake."
Recruit: "And what about my future, coach?"
Jimbo: "Then don't sign any autographs for money...allegedly."
Recruit: "But don't you make more than the governor of Florida, coach? I think you will be okay if you get fired. Every coach seems to get another job. Where would I end up, some Junior College in the Inland Empire?"
Jimbo: "Yeah, but still. Family atmosphere."

I doubt even 5% of recruits think this way. If they did, schools that oversign and then cut 10 players a year would have already been in decline.

[improbus]

I doubt even 5% of recruits think this way. If they did, schools that oversign and then cut 10 players a year would have already been in decline.
Maybe. Maybe not.

Also, I might be the only person that respects Jim Tressel for going down the way he did. He didn't hand over the kids to save his job as so many other coaches do.

As for how recruits actually choose schools...http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/4/10/5594348/college-football-bag-man-interview

[jojo]

Maybe. Maybe not.

Also, I might be the only person that respects Jim Tressel for going down the way he did. He didn't hand over the kids to save his job as so many other coaches do.

As for how recruits actually choose schools...http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/4/10/5594348/college-football-bag-man-interview

That's one way someone somewhere might look at it, maybe.

[improbus]

That's one way someone somewhere might look at it, maybe.
I wanted to keep my views on college sports as a whole divorced from this conversation, but that view really shapes my outlook on issues like this. So, here goes.

1) College kids shouldn't be scrutinized like pros. This is a pretty recent phenomenon, but the way we have covered the kids is crazy. If we want them to act like pros, pay them like pros.

2) College sports are one of the world most effective forms of communism. All of the elements are there. Controlled wages for the workers while the organizers get filthy rich. A viable black market (see: Bag man article above, autograph controversies, 30 for 30: Playing for the Mob.), weird justifications by the people in power, a vast and expendable supply of labor.

3) The vast pile of hypocrisies. "Family atmosphere" while coaches can jump jobs and kids can't. "Education" when the players are routinely "asked" to put sports ahead of academics (see: Northwestern). Deification of coaches (see: Paterno, Joe). Commercialization of players who can't make any money (see: Jay Bilas search on NCAA website).

Why would I ever defend the schools and trust their judgment? Why would I take the schools/NCAA's side?

When a coach defends his players, even when it might come at the expense of his job, I am thrilled.

[RedTeamGo!]

Where does everyone fall in the offensive pass interference call at the end of the ND/FSU game last night? The nd fans I know are freaking out and saying "worst call ever!"

Seemed like a legit, but ticky tack call to me.

[Boston Red]

ND was 50/50 on getting away with it for TDs, so they should feel pretty good about it.

[Hoosier Red]

Where does everyone fall in the offensive pass interference call at the end of the ND/FSU game last night? The nd fans I know are freaking out and saying "worst call ever!"

Seemed like a legit, but ticky tack call to me.

Seemed very legit. I hate it when people complain about rules being enforced, just because it's the last minute and/or at the goal line. (Not that you were saying this).

A penalty is a penalty is a penalty and that was a penalty.

[dabvu2498]

Yeah, it's not a call that gets made as often as it should, but that one was pretty blatant. The guy was blocking before the ball was thrown.

[puca]

Maybe. Maybe not.

Also, I might be the only person that respects Jim Tressel for going down the way he did. He didn't hand over the kids to save his job as so many other coaches do.

As for how recruits actually choose schools...http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/4/10/5594348/college-football-bag-man-interview

I'm not sure how you can defend a coach for covering up for a player that committed an obvious rules violation - no matter whether you agree with the rule or not.

I have always been a big fan of Jim Tressel, and still think that he is more honorable than most successful big-time college football coaches, but I don't for a second believe he ignored that rules violation out of concern for the players. He was concerned how the loss of those players, even for what probably would have been a short time, would negatively impact the Ohio State Buckeyes.

[jojo]

Where does everyone fall in the offensive pass interference call at the end of the ND/FSU game last night? The nd fans I know are freaking out and saying "worst call ever!"

Seemed like a legit, but ticky tack call to me.

It was text book pass interference. The tragic part of it was that it was completely unnecessary. That play worked better on the field than it did on the chalkboard. All the two inside receivers had to do was take two steps and turn around and it was a TD.

[jojo]

I'm not sure how you can defend a coach for covering up for a player that committed an obvious rules violation - no matter whether you agree with the rule or not.

I have always been a big fan of Jim Tressel, and still think that he is more honorable than most successful big-time college football coaches, but I don't for a second believe he ignored that rules violation out of concern for the players. He was concerned how the loss of those players, even for what probably would have been a short time, would negatively impact the Ohio State Buckeyes.

This is absolutely dead on. But the myth of Tressel still persists. Just like the "Urban" legend....

[Razor Shines]

Where does everyone fall in the offensive pass interference call at the end of the ND/FSU game last night? The nd fans I know are freaking out and saying "worst call ever!"

Seemed like a legit, but ticky tack call to me.

I'm a ND fan and I thought it was good call. Most of the time you get away with that if you're not as obvious about it. FSU fans would have been screaming if it wasn't called and rightly so.

At the same time as you say "ND fans are freaking out" I think pretty much any fan base in the country would react the same way.

[Sea Ray]

Which is what it seems like Jimbo Fisher and FSU is doing. Deliberately covering up for their star QB.

I am a huge OSU fan, but what Tressel and the OSU football team did to cover up the Pryor tattoo thing was ridiculous.

At OSU there was clearly a violation by Pryor. At FSU, like Auburn, nothing's been proven yet. They haven't been able to nail anything onto Winston

[jojo]

At OSU there was clearly a violation by Pryor. At FSU, like Auburn, nothing's been proven yet. They haven't been able to nail anything onto Winston

The autographs are just a minor part of the jeopardy that Winston faces. His big battle is with the Student Conduct Committee. FSU has to tread very lightly there and can't make a decision that is inconsistent with the history of the committee. In other words, Winston is probably on his own there as FSU can't afford even the appearance of a coverup. They are going to get sued and they are going to pay out alot of money. The real issue is their need to cauterize the scandal which is bigger than football.

[RedTeamGo!]

At OSU there was clearly a violation by Pryor. At FSU, like Auburn, nothing's been proven yet. They haven't been able to nail anything onto Winston

There was not clearly a violation by Pryor until there was clearly a violation.

[Puffy]

Yeah, it's not a call that gets made as often as it should, but that one was pretty blatant. The guy was blocking before the ball was thrown.

I was at game and couldn't tell and then when I first saw it on replay later I kinda agreed with call. But after looking at it again and still getting no clarity on who the "foul" was on I am now a little pissed. As you state Dab it looks like blocking - but thats not who they called it on apparently. They called it on Fuller, the second kid (#7) through and he was running a slant and did run into Darby. Here is one thing to remember though. OPI is impeding the defender from getting to man. FSU blew the coverage - - neither player that ND supposedly blocked were trying to get to Corey Robinson. The first defender locked up Proisce on his own (legally because it was within 5 yards) but then the defender held on to Proisce. Proisce never was able to raise his hands as FSU defender had arms locked up. It looked like Proisce was blocking to naked eye but if you watch replay its FSU guy who was holding the entire time and Proisce is so far forward he almost falls. What he did wrong was not act better but it was his job to get in to endzone and turn as an option. Anyway that is not who they called it on. So even if it looked blatant it wasn't called.

Fuller was who they called it on and his mistake, I guess, was not making more of an effort to evade FSU's second defender there - but that second defender wanted Fuller to run into him because it takes Fuller out of play not because he thought he was being blocked. He was making no effort to get to Robinson, he was only making effort to cover Fuller.

Admittedly I am biased, but it wasn't as blatant as announcers made it out to be and if you watch again no one tried to cover Robinson. Both defenders on that side were covering the other two recievers - the contact was initiated by those two defenders. The third defender was on wrong side standing there - he blew coverage. That guy immediately took his helmet off (which is an automatic penalty by the way) and the three FSU guys starting talking to each other not to the refs.

I get it though, it looked like a penalty - but only because the FSU guys played it that way. No one was impeded which is an important part of Offensive pass interference. Again, biased ND fan but I hope I at least made a little of the case why we think it was a no call instead of a penalty (oh, and that no matter what FSU should have been called for dead ball penalty as soon as third defender removed his helmet on field of play and then it would have been half distance to the goal - after 15 yard penalty assessed on ND to 18 yard line, assess dead ball foul for removing helmet, ball placed on 9 yd line, automatic first down w/ 13 seconds left)

PS - sorry for mini rant!!

[bucksfan2]

I didn't see the play live, I saw the highlight without knowing really what happened the next morning and just watched it again now. If you watch it in full speed it looks like offensive PI on ND #20 who Herbestreit in the play mentions. As well as Fuller ND #7 who was blocking in the end zone while the ball was in the air with Robinson clearly open with a waltz into the end zone.

The play design in itself is meant to create an obstruction for Robinson. The two outside WR's #20 and #7 do not make a move to get open. The whole design of the play is for those two guys to occupy the FSU DB's, which they did, but in doing so they made it look like they were blocking. #20 runs right into the defender, creates contact, and pushes him back into the endzone. #7 does not run a route, he runs into the defensive back. I think Kelly was right in that FSU blew the coverage and regardless of contact Robinson walks into the endzone, but that is not what happened. He had two WR's initiate contact with FSU defensive backs. IMO it was the right call, especially watching it full speed.

[RedTeamGo!]

I agree. You can even see Fuller look back to see if his block worked.

That played was designed knowing it was illegal, but teams get away with it a lot, so it is part of the playbook.

I think there needs to be a clear cut rule on that particular play. Either call it every time or don't. You cannot pick and choose when to call it.

[jojo]

I agree. You can even see Fuller look back to see if his block worked.

That played was designed knowing it was illegal, but teams get away with it a lot, so it is part of the playbook.

I think there needs to be a clear cut rule on that particular play. Either call it every time or don't. You cannot pick and choose when to call it.

It's actually a pretty straightforward rule that gets called alot. Players can't block downfield when the first forward touch is by a player beyond the line of scrimmage. This play was dead in the water the second that #20 started blocking. The tragic part of the play is that both inside receivers couldve simply fell to the ground at the snap and it's a TD because FSU clearly busted the coverage big time. I think it was a wonderfully designed play and a great play call that ND simply didn't excute well.

[bucksfan2]

It's actually a pretty straightforward rule that gets called alot. Players can't block downfield when the first forward touch is by a player beyond the line of scrimmage. This play was dead in the water the second that #20 started blocking. The tragic part of the play is that both inside receivers couldve simply fell to the ground at the snap and it's a TD because FSU clearly busted the coverage big time. I think it was a wonderfully designed play and a great play call that ND simply didn't excute well.

I think that is the important point. I don't think offensive PI is called all that much anymore, but when #20 for ND comes off the line, creates contact, and then drives the FSU defender into the end zone it catches the eye of the official. It didn't help matters that #7 was in the end zone blocking as well. It was a perfect play call in that situation, heck all the ND WR's had to do was occupy the FSU DB's and its a clean TD. Pick plays often are successful as long as it doesn't appear the offensive player is blocking.

[RedTeamGo!]

It's actually a pretty straightforward rule that gets called alot. Players can't block downfield when the first forward touch is by a player beyond the line of scrimmage. This play was dead in the water the second that #20 started blocking. The tragic part of the play is that both inside receivers couldve simply fell to the ground at the snap and it's a TD because FSU clearly busted the coverage big time. I think it was a wonderfully designed play and a great play call that ND simply didn't excute well.

They did the exact play earlier in the game and scored a TD on it.

#20 is actually grabbed by the FSU player

#7 is the one that blatantly blocked his DB.

You are definitely correct. both WRs could have just stopped in their tracks and it was game over.

[bucksfan2]

They did the exact play earlier in the game and scored a TD on it.

#20 is actually grabbed by the FSU player

#7 is the one that blatantly blocked his DB.

You are definitely correct. both WRs could have just stopped in their tracks and it was game over.

First time you watched the clip, what did it look like? To me it looked like he initiated contact and then drove the DB into the end zone.

[kbrake]

http://www.wsbt.com/sports/a-new-look-at-that-controversial-call-during-nd-vs-fsu/29232562

The penalty was called on #7 not #20. I thought it looked the corner was trying to jam #20 and the corner on #7 read it as a slant and jumped in front of the WR. FSU blew the coverage and got bailed out. There is a reason the corners were not pleading for a flag and instead yelling at each other. In no way shape or form a ND fan.

[Puffy]

http://www.wsbt.com/sports/a-new-look-at-that-controversial-call-during-nd-vs-fsu/29232562

The penalty was called on #7 not #20. I thought it looked the corner was trying to jam #20 and the corner on #7 read it as a slant and jumped in front of the WR. FSU blew the coverage and got bailed out. There is a reason the corners were not pleading for a flag and instead yelling at each other. In no way shape or form a ND fan.

Thanks for that - - as I stated in my post above the FSU defenders are the ones who initiated both receivers into contact. Those were the two outside defenders. The third guy never even tried to get to Robinson. It was a blown coverage that got called Offensive pass interference not because it was but because it appeared to be. And it appeared that way because of the blown coverage.

Oh well, its tough to swallow, especially being in stadium. We were celebrating like crazy and had no idea there was a flag for a good 10 seconds. Talk about deflating

[RedTeamGo!]

First time you watched the clip, what did it look like? To me it looked like he initiated contact and then drove the DB into the end zone.

The first 5 times I watched it, it looked like ND #20 player initiated contact, after closer inspection and a close-up I found online you can clearly see the FSU player grabs him first.

[Chip R]

Looks like someone other than Winston is in trouble.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/11774172/florida-state-seminoles-running-back-karlos-williams-being-investigated-alleged-domestic-assault

[Chip R]

Website alleges Winston shaved points during the first half of the Louisville game.

http://ibnsportswrap.com/article.php?articleID=1716

[Assembly Hall]

Looks like someone other than Winston is in trouble.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/11774172/florida-state-seminoles-running-back-karlos-williams-being-investigated-alleged-domestic-assault


And the plot thickens!!!!!!!

[MWM]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say this story is nonsense. Should I have heard of IBM Sports Wrap before now? And it's written by someone called Incarcerated Bob.

[jojo]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say this story is nonsense. Should I have heard of IBM Sports Wrap before now? And it's written by someone called Incarcerated Bob.

I would be utterly shocked if Winston was involved in point shaving.

[Razor Shines]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say this story is nonsense. Should I have heard of IBM Sports Wrap before now? And it's written by someone called Incarcerated Bob.

How do you think Bob found himself incarcerated?

[jojo]

Apparently, the NCAA is actually investigating if Jamesis shaved points against Louisville:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/florida-state-seminoles/jameis-winston/os-jimbo-fisher-jameis-winston-point-shaving-20141110-story.html

[bucksfan2]

Jamis lost the benefit of the doubt a long time ago. Any accusation, regardless of its validity, is going to be investigated.

[Assembly Hall]

Jamis lost the benefit of the doubt a long time ago. Any accusation, regardless of its validity, is going to be investigated.

You hit the nail on the head right there. He will be scrutinized the rest of his days in Tallahasee and probably beyond.