Cardinals sold 2.6 mil tickets already

[PeteRoseDay]

When will we come out of hibernation and fill up the stands day in and day out at GABP?

Just another thing St. Louis is better than us at. Frustrating.

[Kilgore_Trout]

Good for St. Louis.

I think there are a lot of factors that go into something like that: sustained winning, retention of season ticket holders, metropolitan area, geography, fan-base, general interest, etc. Of course it would be nice to see constant sellout crowds packed into GABP, but that's just not a current reality. I expect to see attendance figures up overall, as they have been consistently over the last few seasons, but it'll take some time before we can even get close to St. Louis's steady attendance figures.

I'd imagine that a World Series, or at the very least a Pennant, would go a long way in making that a reality.

[yadontSabo]

When will we come out of hibernation and fill up the stands day in and day out at GABP?

Just another thing St. Louis is better than us at. Frustrating.

I would be be willing to wager heavily that if since 2000 we had been in 8 of 14 NLCS's, 4 WS and 2 WS victories we would be over 3 million in attendance. Not even the Big Red Machine era enjoyed quite that kind of perennial success and last season we hit BRM attendance numbers.

[dougdirt]

When will we come out of hibernation and fill up the stands day in and day out at GABP?

Just another thing St. Louis is better than us at. Frustrating.

Where is this number coming from?

[Beltway]

When will we come out of hibernation and fill up the stands day in and day out at GABP?

Just another thing St. Louis is better than us at. Frustrating.
Do you have a source?

[Redsfansince72]

if the Cardinals did what the Reds did: tease everybody, NOT win a world series since 1990 and like this off season sat on their hands again, they wouldnt have 3 million fans!! WINNING a World Series Championship and having a team goal to better the team in the off season and at the trade deadline when needed to get to the next step, thats what i want the Reds ownership to be like so the Reds stop being the Cardinals little sister that never gets the prize..

[Jim]

Winning is all well and good, but even the Cubs have better attendance figures and they suck:

2013 Attendance
Cubs: 2.6M
Reds: 2.5M

Source: http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2013 (http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2013)

[BluegrassRedleg]

People don't go to Cubs games for the baseball. Just sayin...

[yadontSabo]

Winning is all well and good, but even the Cubs have better attendance figures and they suck:

2013 Attendance
Cubs: 2.6M
Reds: 2.5M

Source: http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2013 (http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2013)

If the Cubs played in a metro area the size of Cincy and not Chicago I doubt they would pull the kind of numbers they do.

[RedsAndCatsFan]

I still think the difference lies in a weeknight game when school's in session. The Cardinals are able to sell 38,000+ tix to those types of games, whereas the Reds sell around 20,000. From my experience of being in STL for business at least once or twice a year during home baseball games, I see way more kids out at the game on school nights. Sure, a lot of people will leave around the seventh inning, but that still equals tix sold. I'm not a parent so I don't understand, but does anyone care to comment on why STL parents are ok with bringing their kids to the game on a weekday, vs. Cincy parents?

[PeteRoseDay]

I still think the difference lies in a weeknight game when school's in session. The Cardinals are able to sell 38,000+ tix to those types of games, whereas the Reds sell around 20,000. From my experience of being in STL for business at least once or twice a year during home baseball games, I see way more kids out at the game on school nights. Sure, a lot of people will leave around the seventh inning, but that still equals tix sold. I'm not a parent so I don't understand, but does anyone care to comment on why STL parents are ok with bringing their kids to the game on a weekday, vs. Cincy parents?

The only thing I can think of is that they are a better team with far more success over the past 15 or so years...

[757690]

I still think the difference lies in a weeknight game when school's in session. The Cardinals are able to sell 38,000+ tix to those types of games, whereas the Reds sell around 20,000. From my experience of being in STL for business at least once or twice a year during home baseball games, I see way more kids out at the game on school nights. Sure, a lot of people will leave around the seventh inning, but that still equals tix sold. I'm not a parent so I don't understand, but does anyone care to comment on why STL parents are ok with bringing their kids to the game on a weekday, vs. Cincy parents?

Excellent observation. That is the biggest difference and it can easily be explained by the fact that St. Louis has a much bigger metro area to draw from, while Cincinnati has a bigger expanded areas to draw from.

Both teams have a similar fan base in size, but a large part of the Cincinnari fan base comes from Kentucky, Dayton, Indianapolis, Columbus and all the small towns around it. Most Cardinal fans live within 20-30 minutes do the stadium.

That means, during the week, the Cards have more fans that can see a game and still be home in time to go to bed at a reasonable hour to get up for work/school the next morning. Reds fans from Dayton, Hamilton, etc, can't do that.

Hence, the Cards get more fans for night games during the week.

[yadontSabo]

St. Louis metro has about 800,000 more people and 35% more dense. Couple that with the winningest franchise in the NL since 2000 and you have a perfect recipe for top tier attendance.

[RedlegJake]

There was a study on the ORG not long ago that showed Cincy for its density and size was 2nd in baseball in attendance. Similarly to KC, more compatible "type" and size to compare, Cincy's fans are widespread and have trouble just driving in to the park on weekdays. KC is the same but CIncy far, far outdraws KC.

[jlcomo]

Excellent observation. That is the biggest difference and it can easily be explained by the fact that St. Louis has a much bigger metro area to draw from, while Cincinnati has a bigger expanded areas to draw from.

Both teams have a similar fan base in size, but a large part of the Cincinnari fan base comes from Kentucky, Dayton, Indianapolis, Columbus and all the small towns around it. Most Cardinal fans live within 20-30 minutes do the stadium.

That means, during the week, the Cards have more fans that can see a game and still be home in time to go to bed at a reasonable hour to get up for work/school the next morning. Reds fans from Dayton, Hamilton, etc, can't do that.

Hence, the Cards get more fans for night games during the week.

Excuses.

Because of KMOX Cardinals fans spread from Arkansas to Tennessee to areas of the deep south.

The Cardinals have one of the biggest fan bases in all of baseball. STL is a metro population of about 2.8M people. Cincy's metro population is 2.1M. Not a huge difference.

[757690]

Excuses.

Because of KMOX Cardinals fans spread from Arkansas to Tennessee to areas of the deep south.

The Cardinals have one of the biggest fan bases in all of baseball. STL is a metro population of about 2.8M people. Cincy's metro population is 2.1M. Not a huge difference.

That's a 40% increase in population. That's a huge difference. It is almost exactly the difference between the two team's attendance last season.

[RedlegJake]

To be fair in the density/attendacne rankings Sait Louis was #1. Their fans do attend in droves - but the differences in density and geographic area give an edge to Saint Loo. I attribute that fan loyalty to an almost continuous system of excellent management since the mid 80s. When the Reds win consistently they draw extremely well for their market. The Cards had a real lull in the 70s through the early 80s and their attendance suffered relative to the Reds on the same period. Sustained excellence does make a big difference and for 30 years now the Cards have had that. The Reds have had brief periods of excellence and long spans of futility.

[yadontSabo]

Excuses.

Because of KMOX Cardinals fans spread from Arkansas to Tennessee to areas of the deep south.

The Cardinals have one of the biggest fan bases in all of baseball. STL is a metro population of about 2.8M people. Cincy's metro population is 2.1M. Not a huge difference.

1- You're bragging about reaching into some of the least populated areas in the US where mostly Atlanta and Texas teams dominate.
2-I would need to see evidence they are one of the biggest or at least what qualifies as "biggest"
3-Read what I wrote earlier in the thread.

[Lewdog]

I really am amazed that St. Louis, which to me seems on the same level as Cincinnati, but has to fight with Royals fans being so close to their city, can draw more fans consistently than the Reds.

[RedlegJake]

I really am amazed that St. Louis, which to me seems on the same level as Cincinnati, but has to fight with Royals fans being so close to their city, can draw more fans consistently than the Reds.

No closer than Cleveland is to Cincy...and its more like KC fighting to keep their fans...

[757690]

I really am amazed that St. Louis, which to me seems on the same level as Cincinnati, but has to fight with Royals fans being so close to their city, can draw more fans consistently than the Reds.

I grew up in Saint Louis, and no one, I mean no one I knew, ever considered rooting for the Royals. The rivalry between Saint Louis and another city was with Chicago, and everyone hated Chicago.

Kansas City just wasn't considered as a rival, even when they were both good in the 80's. In fact, in Saint Louis, we laughed at the notion of an I-70 Series, since no one ever drove that route to watch the Royals before.

Also, remember, that the Royals were a new franchise, and the old KC A's were terrible. Saint Louis was the darling of the Midwest, winning NL titles almost as regularly as the Yankees won AL titles. Plus they had KMOX, broadcasting all over the Midwest, so even the small towns in between St. Louis and KC were all Cardinal towns for decades before the Royals even existed.

[RedlegJake]

I grew up in Saint Louis, and no one, I mean no one I knew, ever considered rooting for the Royals. The rivalry between Saint Louis and another city was with Chicago, and everyone hated Chicago.

Kansas City just wasn't considered as a rival, even when they were both good in the 80's. In fact, in Saint Louis, we laughed at the notion of an I-70 Series, since no one ever drove that route to watch the Royals before.

Also, remember, that the Royals were a new franchise, and the old KC A's were terrible. Saint Louis was the darling of the Midwest, winning NL titles almost as regularly as the Yankees won AL titles. Plus they had KMOX, broadcasting all over the Midwest, so even the small towns in between St. Louis and KC were all Cardinal towns for decades before the Royals even existed.

Yep. I live in Saint Joseph, just a few miles north of KC and there are more Cardinal fans here than Royal fans. For one thing, the Cards had a minors team here ages ago. Local radio still plays the Cards games every day. Although its long past the Cardinals huge farm system of an earlier generation built fans throughout the Midwest and central south. Those links pass from generation to generation and still feed a lot of fans to the Cards from places like Joplin and Tulsa and Enid Ok and Wichita and small Arkansas towns.

[jlcomo]

1- You're bragging about reaching into some of the least populated areas in the US where mostly Atlanta and Texas teams dominate.
2-I would need to see evidence they are one of the biggest or at least what qualifies as "biggest"
3-Read what I wrote earlier in the thread.

KMOX was around long before the Braves, Astros, & Rangers thus there's lots of families in those areas that are Cardinals fans passed down from generation to generation.

The Cardinals have are a mid market team that draws like a large market team. They are unique. It's the reason they are able to keep their payroll between $110-$120M.

When they get their new deal they'll start operating more like a large market team too because they're going to do well with FSMW considering they only pay $15M per year from TV right now. The TV contract is going to kick in right when all this young talent they have starts to get paid and I won't be surprised if we see the Cardinals payroll bump to $150M+.

[757690]

KMOX was around long before the Braves, Astros, & Rangers thus there's lots of families in those areas that are Cardinals fans passed down from generation to generation.

The Cardinals have are a mid market team that draws like a large market team. They are unique. It's the reason they are able to keep their payroll between $110-$120M.

When they get their new deal they'll start operating more like a large market team too because they're going to do well with FSMW considering they only pay $15M per year from TV right now. The TV contract is going to kick in right when all this young talent they have starts to get paid and I won't be surprised if we see the Cardinals payroll bump to $150M+.

Cards definitely have done a great job at drawing fans. But they are actually third in terms of per capita attendance, just behind the Reds, and way behind the Brewers, according to this chart:

http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-mlb-per-capita-attendance-2013-8

http://static3.businessinsider.com/image/52027fb36bb3f7c67d000015-800-/2-530.jpg

[yadontSabo]

KMOX was around long before the Braves, Astros, & Rangers thus there's lots of families in those areas that are Cardinals fans passed down from generation to generation.

The Cardinals have are a mid market team that draws like a large market team. They are unique. It's the reason they are able to keep their payroll between $110-$120M.

When they get their new deal they'll start operating more like a large market team too because they're going to do well with FSMW considering they only pay $15M per year from TV right now. The TV contract is going to kick in right when all this young talent they have starts to get paid and I won't be surprised if we see the Cardinals payroll bump to $150M+.

The Cards don't draw attendance because of KMOX or a uniqueness of the fan base. They draw because they win. That is the common denominator when evaluating rise and decline of attendance over the decades.

[ac084c]

The Cards don't draw attendance because of KMOX or a uniqueness of the fan base. They draw because they win. That is the common denominator when evaluating rise and decline of attendance over the decades.

The Cardinals went from 1988-2003 without a WS appearance, missed the playoffs in 12 of those 16 years, and had sub-.500 seasons in 5 of those years:

Season Record Finish P/Off? Attendance
1988 75-86 5/6 N 2,892,799
1989 86-76 3/6 N 3,080,980
1990 70-92 6/6 N 2,573,225
1991 84-78 2/6 N 2,448,699
1992 83-79 3/6 N 2,418,483
1993 87-75 3/7 N 2,844,977
1994* 53-61 3/5 N 1,866,544
1995* 62-81 4/5 N 1,756,727
1996 88-74 1/5 Y 2,654,718
1997 73-89 4/5 N 2,634,014
1998 83-79 3/6 N 3,195,691
1999 75-86 4/6 N 3,235,833
2000 95-67 1/6 Y 3,336,493
2001 93-69 2/6 Y 3,109,578
2002 97-65 1/6 Y 3,011,756
2003 85-77 3/6 N 2,910,386
*1994 and 1995 seasons shortened due to MLBPA Strike

[ac084c]

Where is this number coming from?

It was mentioned in their spring training broadcast yesterday.

[dougdirt]

It was mentioned in their spring training broadcast yesterday.

I would like to see something about that.

I say that because I wonder how the number was come up with. Did someone say they have sold X number of season tickets then just multiply? Did that number include all season ticket packages or just full season ticket packages? Those 27 game packages are quite a bit smaller than those 81 game packages. So I want to know if there was some funny math going on there by someone who just heard a number of season tickets sold and just multiplied by 81 when they shouldn't have, or if the Cardinals themselves said they have sold 2.6M tickets already, because there is a very big difference.

[757690]

The Cardinals went from 1988-2003 without a WS appearance, missed the playoffs in 12 of those 16 years, and had sub-.500 seasons in 5 of those years:

Season Record Finish P/Off? Attendance
1988 75-86 5/6 N 2,892,799
1989 86-76 3/6 N 3,080,980
1990 70-92 6/6 N 2,573,225
1991 84-78 2/6 N 2,448,699
1992 83-79 3/6 N 2,418,483
1993 87-75 3/7 N 2,844,977
1994* 53-61 3/5 N 1,866,544
1995* 62-81 4/5 N 1,756,727
1996 88-74 1/5 Y 2,654,718
1997 73-89 4/5 N 2,634,014
1998 83-79 3/6 N 3,195,691
1999 75-86 4/6 N 3,235,833
2000 95-67 1/6 Y 3,336,493
2001 93-69 2/6 Y 3,109,578
2002 97-65 1/6 Y 3,011,756
2003 85-77 3/6 N 2,910,386
*1994 and 1995 seasons shortened due to MLBPA Strike

In 1985 and 1987, they went to the World Series. They had an off year the next year. They were a contending, winning team 4 out of the next 5 seasons.

Then they started losing, and started drawing like a non contending team. Then they acquired Mark McGwire and started chasing the HR record, and the fans came back, and stayed when they started winning.

Their attendance numbers from those years actually prove that they are like any other team, with fans like any other team's fans.

[757690]

I would like to see something about that.

I say that because I wonder how the number was come up with. Did someone say they have sold X number of season tickets then just multiply? Did that number include all season ticket packages or just full season ticket packages? Those 27 game packages are quite a bit smaller than those 81 game packages. So I want to know if there was some funny math going on there by someone who just heard a number of season tickets sold and just multiplied by 81 when they shouldn't have, or if the Cardinals themselves said they have sold 2.6M tickets already, because there is a very big difference.

The number I heard on their broadcast was 2.6 million tickets (seats) sold. But it was the Cardinal broadcast team, and they don't have a great record of accuracy in their reporting, much like most teams TV broadcasting teams.

If it's true, it isn't that uncommon for teams coming off a World Series appearance. Heck, even the Twins sold 2.6 million tickets in the offseason before their new stadium opened. And the Cards are media and fan darlings this year, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was true.

[ac084c]

In 1985 and 1987, they went to the World Series. They had an off year the next year. They were a contending, winning team 4 out of the next 5 seasons.

Then they started losing, and started drawing like a non contending team. Then they acquired Mark McGwire and started chasing the HR record, and the fans came back, and stayed when they started winning.

Their attendance numbers from those years actually prove that they are like any other team, with fans like any other team's fans.

They only finished higher than 3rd once from 89-93. Winning team yes, contending team, no.

[757690]

They only finished higher than 3rd once from 89-93. Winning team yes, contending team, no.

And there attendance slipped by 20% during that period. The numbers clearly show that the Cardinals attendance was driven by their performance, until McGwire showed up, just like every other team.

[PeteRoseDay]

The point is, the Cardinals are the franchise the Reds will never be. Attendance, resources, championships, etc...

It's sad, but true.

[ac084c]

And there attendance slipped by 20% during that period. The numbers clearly show that the Cardinals attendance was driven by their performance, until McGwire showed up, just like every other team.

They were still well over league average in all of those years but the strike-shortened ones.

[oregonred]

8 LCS appearances and 4 WS appearances since 2000. Not hard to figure this one out.

[757690]

They were still well over league average in all of those years but the strike-shortened ones.

The Reds were well above average for 5 years after 1976, even though they made the playoffs only one of those years.

During those same years, plus 1976,, the Cardinals were a losing, non contending team, and they were in the bottom half of the league in attendance all but one of those years.

The Cardinals draw more per capita than most teams. They do a great job of building a fanbase. But history tells us that their ability to draw fans is closely connected to their ability to win. They don't have magical fans that support them through good and bad times. They are just like every other team's fans. They support winners and don't support losers.

[oregonred]

Cardinals came out of the two strikes smelling like a rose. (82/85/87 WS) and then the McGwire 'roid infused chase in the late 90s and hitting the jackpot with Pujols. And then hitting another 7-7-7 when he bolted town.

Castelllini is following the Cardinals model in building the base with the Reds (Reds gate rev and corp sponsorship revenues have doubled since he took over). Which is exactly what he should be doing.

[Beltway]

That's a 40% increase in population. That's a huge difference. It is almost exactly the difference between the two team's attendance last season.
I know this is nitpicking, but (2.8-2.1)/2.1 is not 0.4, it's 0.3333. That's a 33% increase, not a 40% increase. I can't help but point out math errors.

[Beltway]

The point is, the Cardinals are the franchise the Reds will never be. Attendance, resources, championships, etc...

It's sad, but true.
Are you really a Reds fan? You have a defeated attitude, so I guess it's possible that you are, but this outlook is annoying. We are capable of having success at the level the Cardinals have had. We just need to be run as well as the Cardinals have been run. It's not easy, but it's certainly possible and this franchise is in significantly better shape than it was a decade ago. I'm optimistic.

[BigRed91]

We just need to be run as well as the cardinals? First step then is to fire Jocketty and hire our Mozeliak.

[yadontSabo]

We just need to be run as well as the cardinals? First step then is to fire Jocketty and hire our Mozeliak.

The Cardinal's best stretch of attendance began when Jocketty was hired and continues to this day. We've been steadily increasing and could match an attendance record this year.

[frivolousz21]

The cardinals have higher ticket prices than the Reds as well.

The last Forbes update showed the Cards having 108 mil in gate receipts and the Reds at 56 mil.

The winning helps.

But the two main factors are the huge reach the Cardinals have with a huge amount of families from out of town going to a game or two a season.

And the corporate season ticket holders whether it's partial or full. Small or large business. Almost every business that can afford it has season tickets. On cool or cold April weekdays you will see 38K announced when there is clearly barely over 25K there.

I haven't been to a game in 4 years or so. I am definitely never paying for seats again.

I am 31 yrs old and from 1992-2010 I was a die hard fan. I have just had enough. Once they priced me out I have been semi casual ever since.


http://mlb.mlb.com/ticketing/pricing.jsp?c_id=stl&layout=monthly&m=4



Opening day vs you guys cost 160 bucks for one seat.

The next day you can buy them at 10 bucks right now.

That is some suped up price gouging that is disguised as "dynamic" pricing.

[TDogg]

I try to take in a Reds game when I visit my kin in Louisville, even tho I'm a Cards fan. Don't mind making the drive up to Cincy. It's nice to just watch a game without having a diehard rooting interest.

[Rando]

I pretty much agree with everyone else. The Reds and Cards are not an apples to apples comparison as far a winning history. It's not a fair comparison regarding ticket sales, there are tons of factors.

[KYExtemper]

We're getting there. It's steady progress, but it's not like we're as bad as the Rays who field a great team and still draw peanuts. Even though I love the Reds, I admit that the Cards are the most distinguished team in the division and is an organizational model for us to look up to and follow. Although I wish we'd win a playoff series, I'm happy that we're in contention after many years of mediocrity after 1995.

[PeteRoseDay]

Are you really a Reds fan? You have a defeated attitude, so I guess it's possible that you are, but this outlook is annoying. We are capable of having success at the level the Cardinals have had. We just need to be run as well as the Cardinals have been run. It's not easy, but it's certainly possible and this franchise is in significantly better shape than it was a decade ago. I'm optimistic.

I was very optimistic the past 4 years when I felt the Reds were the best in the division. That is no longer true, and the Votto contract (among a couple others) are quite crippling for a payroll like the Reds. We also do not have that great of a farm system, unless you ask many around here that overvalue every single player.

It's frustrating we couldn't even win a playoff series and now we are not the best in the division anymore, and we might not even be the 2nd best with the Pirates and their ridiculous farm.

[Mike Honcho]

I grew up in Saint Louis, and no one, I mean no one I knew, ever considered rooting for the Royals. The rivalry between Saint Louis and another city was with Chicago, and everyone hated Chicago.

Kansas City just wasn't considered as a rival, even when they were both good in the 80's. In fact, in Saint Louis, we laughed at the notion of an I-70 Series, since no one ever drove that route to watch the Royals before.

Also, remember, that the Royals were a new franchise, and the old KC A's were terrible. Saint Louis was the darling of the Midwest, winning NL titles almost as regularly as the Yankees won AL titles. Plus they had KMOX, broadcasting all over the Midwest, so even the small towns in between St. Louis and KC were all Cardinal towns for decades before the Royals even existed.

You grew up in St Louis but became a Reds fan? There must be some kind of story behind that.

[Mike Honcho]

Are you really a Reds fan? You have a defeated attitude, so I guess it's possible that you are, but this outlook is annoying. We are capable of having success at the level the Cardinals have had. We just need to be run as well as the Cardinals have been run. It's not easy, but it's certainly possible and this franchise is in significantly better shape than it was a decade ago. I'm optimistic.

It sounded like a wolf in sheep's clothing to me also.

[757690]

You grew up in St Louis but became a Reds fan? There must be some kind of story behind that.

Born in Dayton. Moved to Saint Louis in 1977, when I was 10. Never forgave my parents.

[dougdirt]

I was very optimistic the past 4 years when I felt the Reds were the best in the division. That is no longer true, and the Votto contract (among a couple others) are quite crippling for a payroll like the Reds. We also do not have that great of a farm system, unless you ask many around here that overvalue every single player.

It's frustrating we couldn't even win a playoff series and now we are not the best in the division anymore, and we might not even be the 2nd best with the Pirates and their ridiculous farm.

Votto's salary isn't a hue hit to the Reds payroll. These aren't the 2005 Reds. The payroll is quite a bit larger these days.

The farm system is in good shape. It isn't the best, but it has star potential in it. The reason it is ranked middle of the pack is that aside from Stephenson, most of the premium prospects are going to be in A-ball. Still, Baseball America writers had Stephenson, Hamilton, Winker, Ervin, Holmberg and Y. Rodriguez all inside the Top 150 for at least one writer (Holmberg was only listed once) and at least five of seven for the rest of the guys.

[PeteRoseDay]

Votto's salary isn't a hue hit to the Reds payroll. These aren't the 2005 Reds. The payroll is quite a bit larger these days.

The farm system is in good shape. It isn't the best, but it has star potential in it. The reason it is ranked middle of the pack is that aside from Stephenson, most of the premium prospects are going to be in A-ball. Still, Baseball America writers had Stephenson, Hamilton, Winker, Ervin, Holmberg and Y. Rodriguez all inside the Top 150 for at least one writer (Holmberg was only listed once) and at least five of seven for the rest of the guys.

I like Hamilton, but he can still be hit or miss with his miserable .308 OBP last season in AAA. He still has a lot of time to adjust, it's just discouraging he hit so poorly.

Here's a tweet from Jason Parks a few minutes ago regarding Stephenson:

Jason Parks ‏@ProfessorParks 2m
Stephenson struggled to locate today. FB was crisp but straight, and hitters were jumping it. Didn't stay over and snap the CB; slurvy.

Obviously it doesn't mean much right now, but I never like to hear that.

[markymark69]

Frankly, I think if you are basing your decision to go to a game or go to several games on whether or not a team wins the World Series - is a cop out.

I have heard for years how we Reds fans claim that we are the best fans in baseball - we talk a good game, but we can't back it up - in regards to attendance.

I have always had difficulty with the notion of people going to games only when the team is successful. Cincinnati is one of 30 cities that have a major league baseball franchise - and right now, it's pretty good. Could it be better? Yes, but it could be a lot worse, it has been a lot worse. I understand there may be some legitimate factors (night games on school nights), but again, I find it interesting that St. Louis, Milwaukee, Chicago don't seem to have these problems (or excuses).

Some of it could be distance. I only get to attend about 2-3 games a year, but I live 3 hours away, but when I get to retirement age or ever get the chance to move closer to Cincinnati, I will go to more games.

I go because I love to go. Do I hope they win? Do I hope they go to the World Series and win it? Absolutely on both accounts! Does the fact that they might lose or that they will not get to the World Series have any bearing on my decision - not even a little bit!

If the Reds were winning 70 games every year, I could see where the winning argument would have some vaildity, it wouldn't matter to me, but I could understand it.

So, do we as Reds fans step up - or do we just continue to run our mouths and gripe - even after our team has gone to the playoffs in three of the last four years? These are steps on the way to the sustained success that St. Louis has. We use it as excuses not to go - because we haven't won it all.

I still contend that if chat rooms and social media existed in the 1970's, Sparky Anderson would have never made it to 1975.

[westofyou]

This thread needs some cheese

http://www.britishfoodinamerica.com/images/editorial/Dairy-Number/Cheddar-Cheese.jpg

[yadontSabo]

Frankly, I think if you are basing your decision to go to a game or go to several games on whether or not a team wins the World Series - is a cop out.

I have heard for years how we Reds fans claim that we are the best fans in baseball - we talk a good game, but we can't back it up - in regards to attendance.

I have always had difficulty with the notion of people going to games only when the team is successful. Cincinnati is one of 30 cities that have a major league baseball franchise - and right now, it's pretty good. Could it be better? Yes, but it could be a lot worse, it has been a lot worse. I understand there may be some legitimate factors (night games on school nights), but again, I find it interesting that St. Louis, Milwaukee, Chicago don't seem to have these problems (or excuses).

Some of it could be distance. I only get to attend about 2-3 games a year, but I live 3 hours away, but when I get to retirement age or ever get the chance to move closer to Cincinnati, I will go to more games.

I go because I love to go. Do I hope they win? Do I hope they go to the World Series and win it? Absolutely on both accounts! Does the fact that they might lose or that they will not get to the World Series have any bearing on my decision - not even a little bit!

If the Reds were winning 70 games every year, I could see where the winning argument would have some vaildity, it wouldn't matter to me, but I could understand it.

So, do we as Reds fans step up - or do we just continue to run our mouths and gripe - even after our team has gone to the playoffs in three of the last four years? These are steps on the way to the sustained success that St. Louis has. We use it as excuses not to go - because we haven't won it all.

I still contend that if chat rooms and social media existed in the 1970's, Sparky Anderson would have never made it to 1975.

I don't think I've heard Reds fans claiming to be the best fans in baseball. I have, however, heard myself claim that I am one of the best fans in baseball.

[RedlegJake]

This thread needs some cheese

http://www.britishfoodinamerica.com/images/editorial/Dairy-Number/Cheddar-Cheese.jpg

You're right WOY...it sure has the whine already

[frivolousz21]

Given the absurd prices. I can't see how any fans feel they reserve the right to call out other fans.

[WAKEUP]

The Cardinals are unique because of their far reach for a fan base. The KMOX thing is very real. Being the most western team, with nobody south and nobody north for decades, and playing to KMOX every night throughout the country created a huge following nationally. And, they just so happened to be the National League crown jewel for winning championships.

With expansion into almost every major market in the nation from sea to sea, and with TV, it's certainly not like it once was.

However... winning in the 60s.... winning in the 80s... McGwire in the late 90s... and winning since 2000 is what keeps the generational thing going.

When you go to a Cardinal game... even on a random Tuesday night in June, you'll notice how many families travel from afar with their kids, for a chance to catch the team. A team they were taught to follow from their dad and granddad. And there is a good chance that kid will be brought up to be a Cardinal fan.

I have a unique experience of living in Cincinnati until the age of 6, then moving to St. Louis until my teenage years. Living in Columbus, OH for school, then Cincinnati, and eventually back in St. Louis for my current job.

My first baseball game ever, was when I was three. Even with being born in Cincinnati, OH, my dad and his dad were die hard Cardinal fans.

When we moved to St. Louis, I was infatuated with the birds on the bat logo and the craze of red that seemed to take the entire city by storm.

I also had a great affinity for the Reds. They were sorta my team too. And with them being in the West (and they never met in the playoffs), there was no rivalry. It was great. I loved Pete Rose, Eric Davis, Barry Larkin, Nick Esasky, Sabo, Paul O'Neil.

I remember feeling complete hatred at Major League Baseball in 1981 when the Cardinals - best record in all the NL East - and the Reds - best record in all of baseball - both were left out of the playoffs by the worst commissioner decision in baseball history. I was psyched to see my two teams meet. That didn't get to happen.

After that, the Cardinals went on to win the 82 series. They went to game 7 in 85 and 87.

The Reds kept contending, but finished 2nd continually to the Dodgers, Giants, Padres or Astros in any given year in the 80s.

By then I was pretty much a Cardinal fan.

I was very happy when the Reds won the World Series in 90, but a I remember being more upset that the Cardinals finished last.

Then, when the divisions realigned in 94 and the Reds became a division rival, I didn't really have any feelings left for them.

I do wish for them to return to the uniforms of the 70s and 80s. Red, white, gray on road. That's it. No black, no blue, no outlines.

[RedTeamGo!]

Here's a tweet from Jason Parks a few minutes ago regarding Stephenson:

Jason Parks ‏@ProfessorParks 2m
Stephenson struggled to locate today. FB was crisp but straight, and hitters were jumping it. Didn't stay over and snap the CB; slurvy.

Obviously it doesn't mean anything whatsoever, but I never like to hear that.

FTFY

I said in another thread I get sad when huge pitching prospects don't dominate out of the gate, but that outing means absolutely nothing.

Note the word "today" in the tweet by Parks. Do you know who else had days where they struggled to locate, had a straight FB and had trouble snapping their curveball?

Every pitcher in the history of baseball.

[Mike Honcho]

Baseball fans go to games everywhere, otherwise historically bad teams would have no attendance. winning brings in casual fans that puts you in the upper tier.

[Mike Honcho]

Given the absurd prices. I can't see how any fans feel they reserve the right to call out other fans.

There is always college if you want to complain about prices.

[BoutToGoHAM]

Why does a different team's attendance matter to the Reds?

Reds fans really need to get over the comparisons to the Cardinals.
They're a successful franchise. Cool.

There's more than one way to run a successful ball club. Look at the Rays, A's, BoSox. All enjoy varying amounts of success, and all do it in different ways.

This obsession with St. Louis is only going to lead to discontent when the Cardinals go farther in the playoffs instead of being excited that the Reds are continuing their winning ways.

[RedTeamGo!]

Reds fans really need to get over the comparisons to the Cardinals.

This obsession with St. Louis .

I certainly would not lump all Reds fans into this group. Most of the people on here are not obsessed with the Cardinals whatsoever. It annoys me when the Cardinals are messaged on this board.

If anything I think it is odd there are so many Cardinals fans on this board.

[Mike Honcho]

I certainly would not lump all Reds fans into this group. Most of the people on here are not obsessed with the Cardinals whatsoever. It annoys me when the Cardinals are messaged on this board.

If anything I think it is odd there are so many Cardinals fans on this board.

It is an oddity, the fascination between the two fan bases.

[PeteRoseDay]

It's not really an oddity. I view the Cardinals as our biggest rivals. Every team has a rival, or more. I think it intensified 10 fold since the brawl a few years back.

And I'm not surprised that people talk about the Cardinals on here a lot. They have been the team to be in the NL for over 10 years now, and are only getting better in every facet of baseball (major league team, depth, minor league talent, money, fan base, etc.)

I love our Reds, but Jesus it must be nice to be a Cards' fan.

[oregonred]

Who else are we going to talk about in the NL Central, the Boring Brewers, the Johnny come lately Pirates, the Lovable Losers? Since the Reds lost their long standing rivalry with the Dodgers, Giants, Astros and Braves in the NL West twenty years back, it's been a tough road to find a rival to consistently hate upon.

[BluegrassRedleg]

The point is, the Cardinals are the franchise the Reds will never be. Attendance, resources, championships, etc...

It's sad, but true.

Eff 'em.

[KYExtemper]

I certainly would not lump all Reds fans into this group. Most of the people on here are not obsessed with the Cardinals whatsoever. It annoys me when the Cardinals are messaged on this board.

If anything I think it is odd there are so many Cardinals fans on this board.

I know in my area of Western Kentucky there are a lot more Cardinals fans than there are Reds fans. Northern Kentucky and Central Kentucky have lots of Reds fans and Southern Kentucky has a decent contingent of Braves fans.

So, seeing some Cards fans on this board isn't too surprising since those fans probably get a lot of Reds games on TV instead of their team.

[markymark69]

Given the absurd prices. I can't see how any fans feel they reserve the right to call out other fans.

I would never tell anyone how to spend their money. Go to the game, don't go to the game! My point was to base going to a game on whether a team wins the World Series is a cop out.

The Reds are about as inexpensive as they come when it comes to a professional team's ticket prices. You can even bring your own food and they don't hold a gun to your head saying "please by souvenirs."

Not counting the ticket (which were $19) I have gone to games and spent less than $15 bucks. It can be done.

[TDogg]

Cards fan here. As a kid I liked the Reds because my mom was from Cincy and I still have kin there. Used to follow the Braves too because I got to hear their games on the radio. But when we finally got cable and I got to see Whitey Herzog and the Cards pretty much daily (and Ted Turner was in loon mode)...I became a full time Cards fan. Never looked back. Still have nothing but respect for the Reds tho.

And I come here because the mods run a tight ship, and baseball is actually discussed here.

[MikeThierry]

People constantly asked for a link to back this story up but it wasn't provided. Here is a link about a spring training telecast where it backs up this info:


http://m.bizjournals.com/stlouis/blog/2014/03/cardinals-set-telecast-record.html?r=full


"Cardinals individual tickets went on sale Friday, and so far the front office has sold slightly more than 2.6 million for the regular season, outpacing last year, reports Rob Fasoldt, director of ticket sales and services for the Cardinals."

[Yadier Molina]

Excellent observation. That is the biggest difference and it can easily be explained by the fact that St. Louis has a much bigger metro area to draw from, while Cincinnati has a bigger expanded areas to draw from.

Both teams have a similar fan base in size, but a large part of the Cincinnari fan base comes from Kentucky, Dayton, Indianapolis, Columbus and all the small towns around it. Most Cardinal fans live within 20-30 minutes do the stadium.

That means, during the week, the Cards have more fans that can see a game and still be home in time to go to bed at a reasonable hour to get up for work/school the next morning. Reds fans from Dayton, Hamilton, etc, can't do that.

Hence, the Cards get more fans for night games during the week.

This is absolutely not true, Cardinals fans are over the midwest going as far north as Iowa, as far east as indiana, and as far south as Arkansas and Oklahoma. St Louis itself is only about 300k in size, the suburbs make it a few million but the reason Cards sell many tickets is that their fans travel from all over the place.

[Yadier Molina]

Is it really disputed that the cards have one of the biggest fanbases? Clearly 1 and 2 are the Red Sox and the Yankees. Dodgers Giants and Cubs are up there as well, but the cards are always in the top 5 in ticket sales.

[Yadier Molina]

For those looking for an explanation for Cinci's low attendance compared to St Louis perhaps its because since 2004 the Cardinals have the most playoff wins with 50, while the Reds during that same time span have 2 wins.

[Kilgore_Trout]

For those looking for an explanation for Cinci's low attendance compared to St Louis perhaps its because since 2004 the Cardinals have the most playoff wins with 50, while the Reds during that same time span have 2 wins.

Golly gee! Thank you for enlightening us, Yadie!

[10xWSChamps]

It's pretty simple. The Cardinals are the Yankees of the NL. They are second in WS wins to the Yankees. And even in current times, the Cardinals have 51 playoff wins in the past decade, ten more then any other team in the MLB, either league.

That's not all of it however. There is a ton of history. Obviously, lots of World Series championships. But also lots of HOFers, MVPs and Cy Young winners. And almost invariably, these players have chosen to stick around the area and are involved with the team even until their death. I don't say we Cardinals fans are anything special, but there is some combination about the team/fans/history/winning-tradition that makes players stick around and get involved with the team even beyond their career. Pujols is an obvious exception but the odd thing is, is that he still lives in St Louis in the off season and still does all his charity work here. I have a feeling that after his Angels contract is done, he'll really find out where his loyalties should lie.

There's the whole Anheuser Busch legacy, with the Busch family themselves owning the team at one point, to having our third stadium named after the brewery and having 100+ years of festivities around the ballpark involving them. People have mentioned the local AM station, KMOX. It has the largest broadcasting area of any radio station in the US and it is also the oldest and has carried Cardinals games for a very, very long time. Cardinals fans ended up growing around a large swath of the midwest and that has translated to fans that have gone all over the country. They probably still cheer for the Cardinals as they keep winning, but look at Cardinals away games, you will see/hear Cardinals fans at every single one even in other huge baseball towns.

Does this boil down to wins/losses? Yes, to a large degree it does. However it doesn't mean fans aren't loyal here. I don't think the fans are fickle, but if the Cardinals suddenly started to suck for a couple of decades we would not still be drawing 3M+ fans.

The St Louis area is probably the most baseball-rabid part of the nation per capita. A winning legacy and loyal fans and good ownership and a city who always embraced the team all plays into this.

Thank god for current Cardinals ownership who has owned the team for like 2+ decades now, because with all of our current success they are the only constant throughout it.

[757690]

The St Louis area is probably the most baseball-rabid part of the nation per capita.

Milwaukee is easily the most rabid fan base per capita in MLB and it's not even close. Cincinnati and Saint Louis are virtually tied for second in that, according to the most recent numbers.

But otherwise, a very accurate post.

[Halfway between]

Since 1981 the Cardinals attendance has been greater than league average every year but one. Since 1996, attendance has been over 3M every year but 2003 when it was 2,910,386. The Cards didn't get to a WS until 2004 after the '87 WS...and frankly from '88 until mid 90's the Cardinals weren't very good. So, while attendance is loosely correlated with success, it's clear that St Louis has other things going for them.

There's no denying the resurgence in attendance since DeWitt took ownership. He's been a marketing genius and via WJ and Mozeliak has put lots of great teams on the field. But, it was always from a solid attendance base. The years 94 and 95 were both marked by low attendance. But, 117 and 144 games due to a strike were mitigating factors.

Those suggesting that the fan base is solid at the core are right on. They still pipe in the games to the local schools. But, that fan base extends well beyond the city's confines. There may be no team that has a more loyal fan base well outside of city limits.