Price and a first inning bunt = Manager who embraces sabremetrics?

[BuckNaked]

Between Billy Hamilton being relatively non-existent and iffy moves by Price....Our season may be over before it begain :thumbdown:

[Kilgore_Trout]

Between Billy Hamilton being relatively non-existent and iffy moves by Price....Our season may be over before it begain :thumbdown:

We're five games in, man. Take a breath, sip on some water, and put your clothes back on.

It's a lousy start, but at some point during the season we would've gone 1-4 anyway. We just got it out of the way early.

[BuckNaked]

Yea I know....I've calmed down....Thanks I needed that.:thumbup:

[Kai Slater]

Things will balance out in due time. I'm disappointed with our start, but there are so many variables and moving parts, things are bound to improve. We'll be right up there in September. But, with that being said, I don't care if he's a faster than Usain Bolt, but Hamilton's gotta get on base. As the old saying goes, you can't steal first base.

[KYExtemper]

I just really don't like J.J. Hoover. I know he's had some good moments, but every time I see this guy pitch things always go off the rail. Maybe I'm bad luck and should change the channel when he comes out of the bullpen.

[markymark69]

I called it last October, after Baker was fired. Actually I was a little optimistic. I said it would take 10 games before fans started questioning Price's (or at that time the new manager's), line-ups and/or moves. Perhaps we are finding it out that Dusty Baker may not have been the problem, or at least not as big a problem as he was made out to be. That being said, Price is not playing with a full deck (in regards to all the injuries) and we are only five games into the season.

[scotly50]

Basically this is last years team, minus Choo.

Why are we expecting a different result ?

[WAKEUP]

Basically this is last years team, minus Choo.

Why are we expecting a different result ?


Because, as I've read on here all offseason... every single Reds player that had a good year last year will have the exact same year this year, and every player that was bad last year was going to drastically improve, and Billy Hamilton was a guarantee to hit his minor league pre-AAA levels.

In addition, every single player that had a good year on the Cardinals was due to decrease their production, no one was going to improve, and all their young pitchers were going to all of the sudden forget how to pitch.

[TDogg]

"In addition, every single player that had a good year on the Cardinals was due to decrease their production, no one was going to improve, and all their young pitchers were going to all of the sudden forget how to pitch."

That IS partially correct. Cards are batting below .100 with RISP so far. Bourjos is 0 for the season, and Maness HAS forgotten how to locate his sinker. We'll see how both teams fare at St. Louis.

[WAKEUP]

"In addition, every single player that had a good year on the Cardinals was due to decrease their production, no one was going to improve, and all their young pitchers were going to all of the sudden forget how to pitch."

That IS partially correct. Cards are batting below .100 with RISP so far. Bourjos is 0 for the season, and Maness HAS forgotten how to locate his sinker. We'll see how both teams fare at St. Louis.

The Cardinals are also hitting home runs, which they didn't do a lot of last year.

They were in the top 2 in the NL in runs in 2011 and 2012 as well, and didn't hit near .330 with RISP like they did in 2013.

The Cardinals have a good lineup every year, they have people that hit .300 with a very good OBP up and down that lineup every year. They are going to score runs no matter what their RISP avg is, just like they have the last 3 years.

[Kilgore_Trout]

I called it last October, after Baker was fired. Actually I was a little optimistic. I said it would take 10 games before fans started questioning Price's (or at that time the new manager's), line-ups and/or moves. Perhaps we are finding it out that Dusty Baker may not have been the problem, or at least not as big a problem as he was made out to be. That being said, Price is not playing with a full deck (in regards to all the injuries) and we are only five games into the season.

Criticism is inevitable. It's a long season, and I think the slow start really sped it up. We've also had a few setbacks health-wise, so it's natural to kind of panic when things on the field aren't looking too good. Not to mention, all of our losses have been winnable.

With that said, I don't really feel any panic. I realize that it's too early to gauge Price's managerial skills, so I don't fault him yet. It's important to remember that a lot of what has happened has been the result of bad luck and nothing else.

As far as Dusty is concerned, I thought he was an above-average manager overall. He seemed to be great with the players, and I think they all enjoyed playing for him for the most part. He was a bit too old school for me, and a lot of his tactical decisions made me scratch my head, but he helped bring success back to Cincinnati. I think it was a good decision to let him go, but I think I'll look back on him more fondly one day than I do now.

[Don Votto]

I called it last October, after Baker was fired. Actually I was a little optimistic. I said it would take 10 games before fans started questioning Price's (or at that time the new manager's), line-ups and/or moves. Perhaps we are finding it out that Dusty Baker may not have been the problem, or at least not as big a problem as he was made out to be. That being said, Price is not playing with a full deck (in regards to all the injuries) and we are only five games into the season.

As I have said in a couple of other threads.... Dusty Baker won 90 games three times in his tenure with Cincinnati. Only Sparky Anderson has accomplished that as a Reds manager.

Look at what Baker had to contend with last year
1. His ace was available off and on throughout the year.
2. His clean-up hitter was gone for pretty much the entire season.
3. His two veteran set-up men were hurt all of last year.
4. He received absolutely NO front office support AFTER the season started.

To be perfectly frank, Baker's 2013 campaign was probably the best managerial job this city has seen since 1990.

[scotly50]

As I have said in a couple of other threads.... Dusty Baker won 90 games three times in his tenure with Cincinnati. Only Sparky Anderson has accomplished that as a Reds manager.

Look at what Baker had to contend with last year
1. His ace was available off and on throughout the year.
2. His clean-up hitter was gone for pretty much the entire season.
3. His two veteran set-up men were hurt all of last year.
4. He received absolutely NO front office support AFTER the season started.

To be perfectly frank, Baker's 2013 campaign was probably the best managerial job this city has seen since 1990.

I agree. But he is gone and not coming back. We must move on.

[markymark69]

I just think it's funny how some fans can turn so quickly. The comment about criticism being inevitable is correct, but five games? I believe many Reds fans, and some in the front office thought that ridding the organization of Dusty Baker was going to cure all the ills - not that this is a bad team, but it is a flawed team. I just think we need to let Price get his feet wet, with that, mistakes are going to happen.

[Kilgore_Trout]

I just think it's funny how some fans can turn so quickly. The comment about criticism being inevitable is correct, but five games? I believe many Reds fans, and some in the front office thought that ridding the organization of Dusty Baker was going to cure all the ills - not that this is a bad team, but it is a flawed team. I just think we need to let Price get his feet wet, with that, mistakes are going to happen.

This doesn't necessarily apply to anyone in this thread, but from my experience, a lot of Reds fans are a bit reactionary. Then again, a lot of Buckeyes fans are too, so I'm assuming just about every sizable fanbase inevitably shares this trait.

[KYExtemper]

As I have said in a couple of other threads.... Dusty Baker won 90 games three times in his tenure with Cincinnati. Only Sparky Anderson has accomplished that as a Reds manager.

Look at what Baker had to contend with last year
1. His ace was available off and on throughout the year.
2. His clean-up hitter was gone for pretty much the entire season.
3. His two veteran set-up men were hurt all of last year.
4. He received absolutely NO front office support AFTER the season started.

To be perfectly frank, Baker's 2013 campaign was probably the best managerial job this city has seen since 1990.

I'll go on record saying that I didn't support Baker's firing. That said, I'll give Price time to get things headed in the right direction.

[Don Votto]

Ok, why is Phillips bunting in the first inning?
If Price called that (and that is a big if) What in God's name is he DOING?

I realize it is a small sample size, but Phillips is only hitting 2 for 4 so far this year with runners in scoring position, and well, he is hitting .292 on the year.
I can see if it were Cozart... I can see if it were Cingrani... but to take the bat out of Phillips' hands?

What the heck?

[KYExtemper]

Yeah, I totally disagreed with that. Hamilton is fast enough to score from second on a single (he legged a double out of a normal single!). Just a very dumb decision in my book, but hindsight is 20/20.

[Kilgore_Trout]

Don't we already have a "what the heck was that, Price" thread going?

Sure it was frustrating, but if people really wanted to they could make a thread every game on decisions they didn't agree with.

[Don Votto]

Yeah, I suppose we do. However--I find it EXTREMELY frustrating that this team/organization went out (knowing the window is closing) and promoted Price with NO MANAGERIAL EXPERIENCE.

And then, a lot of the interviews, a lot of the discussions were about how everything would be different--he was a manager that would embrace sabermetrics, embrace the numbers... bring excitement to the team--and I am supremely frustrated that it looks like we have a manager that is LEARNING on the job--which is fine if you are the Astros--but NOT when you take over a team that has made it to the playoffs three out of four years.

People compared the firing of Baker to the firing of Bristol and bringing in Anderson--that it was needed to get the Reds over the obstacle--to win a playoff series, and hopefully to play in the World Series, but dag gone it... Anderson was a minor league manager for five seasons--he was not learning how to manage on the job.

I, obviously, did not agree with the Baker firing, but it is what it is.... and one has to move on to the present, but I expect a lot of things from this organization.

To me, hiring an established/phenomenal pitching coach as your manager--when he has NO managing experience is something that our professional football team would do--and not something that the Cincinnati Reds would do.

And, when he makes extremely questionable decisions, then yes it should be pointed out.
To me, Price has NO managerial credibility to fall back on--and for a team that is EXPECTED to contend--then dag gone it... the man and the organization gets NO PASS from me.

[KYExtemper]

Preach it, brother!

[Kilgore_Trout]

Yeah, I suppose we do. However--I find it EXTREMELY frustrating that this team/organization went out (knowing the window is closing) and promoted Price with NO MANAGERIAL EXPERIENCE.

And then, a lot of the interviews, a lot of the discussions were about how everything would be different--he was a manager that would embrace sabermetrics, embrace the numbers... bring excitement to the team--and I am supremely frustrated that it looks like we have a manager that is LEARNING on the job--which is fine if you are the Astros--but NOT when you take over a team that has made it to the playoffs three out of four years.

People compared the firing of Baker to the firing of Bristol and bringing in Anderson--that it was needed to get the Reds over the obstacle--to win a playoff series, and hopefully to play in the World Series, but dag gone it... Anderson was a minor league manager for five seasons--he was not learning how to manage on the job.

I, obviously, did not agree with the Baker firing, but it is what it is.... and one has to move on to the present, but I expect a lot of things from this organization.

To me, hiring an established/phenomenal pitching coach as your manager--when he has NO managing experience is something that our professional football team would do--and not something that the Cincinnati Reds would do.

And, when he makes extremely questionable decisions, then yes it should be pointed out.
To me, Price has NO managerial credibility to fall back on--and for a team that is EXPECTED to contend--then dag gone it... the man and the organization gets NO PASS from me.

So, a lot of your anger seems to be directed at the Reds for hiring a manager with no previous experience. Fine. But were the Cardinals wrong to hire Matheny? Did the Blue Jays make a mistake when they hired a former pitching coach in John Farrell? What about when the Dodgers hired Don Mattingly, or the Marlins hired Joe Girardi? Kirk Gibson had no previous managerial experience, and Matt Williams seemed to be welcomed with open arms. It looks like professional football teams aren't the only ones to take chances on guys without head coaching experience. Care to throw out any names of established coaches without jobs that the Reds should have pursued instead?

I know people are tired of hearing it, but how can someone possibly gauge the managerial proficiency of someone midway through the seventh game of the season? I'm not happy about the bunt. I'm not happy about Price's decision to take LeCure out after the 8th. But do you REALLY think that those two decisions automatically qualify Price as a guy who is "learning on the job"?

I shouldn't be surprised with the negativity, but I really thought it would take longer than 7 games before people started making rash conclusions about our team/new manager.

[Don Votto]

Really, the only comparison you have to Price is Matheny. And to me, yes Matheny was LEARNING ON THE JOB.
John Farrell took over a 4th place Blue Jays team, and led them to 4th place--while learning on the job.

Kirk Gibson was a long time bench coach.
Don Mattingly was a bench coach under Joe Torre.
Matt Williams had a brief minor league managerial gig as well as the third base coach for Gibson.
Joe Girardi was hired by the Marlins after being Torre's bench coach in 2005.

[Kilgore_Trout]

Really, the only comparison you have to Price is Matheny. And to me, yes Matheny was LEARNING ON THE JOB.
John Farrell took over a 4th place Blue Jays team, and led them to 4th place--while learning on the job.

Kirk Gibson was a long time bench coach.
Don Mattingly was a bench coach under Joe Torre.
Matt Williams had a brief minor league managerial gig as well as the third base coach for Gibson.
Joe Girardi was hired by the Marlins after being Torre's bench coach in 2005.

Didn't you put "NO MANAGERIAL EXPERIENCE" in all capital letters, thus stressing it's importance? I simply named guys who, when hired, had no managerial experience. Why does being a bench coach now count? Price was an exceptional pitching coach for over a decade. How does that not qualify him to manage a team?

Matheny won 88 games. Pretty good for a guy who was learning on the job.

By the way, you never offered any names of established, unemployed managers who would have been better options than Price. Or should I say, established bench coaches?

[markymark69]

I'm willing to live with Price learning on the job - and it is only seven games, but I had conversations and debates with people last fall after Baker was let go. My point was be careful what you wish for. Many wanted Baker gone and even seemed to revel in his release - and wanted him gone so bad, that they thought anyone would be better. Much is expected for Price because he's taking over a team that has won at least 90 games in three of the last four seasons with three post-season experiences. Unfortunately I think most of those folks would rather finish 4th or 5th with a guy like Price, that they like, instead of winning divisions and making the playoffs with the manager we had in Baker. There is still time, but through the first seven it's hard to tell a lot of difference from the last six games of last season.

[malcontent]

To me Price seems to still be in spring training mode. Down 3-1 to the Cardinals, you don't pitch the guy that gets sent down when Broxton is activated.

You also don't run Pena on Molina, and you sure don't bunt Hamilton to 3B.

And if the bunt was Phillip's call, Price obviously didn't do his job during all those classroom discussions during ST.

[HUHUH]

To me, hiring an established/phenomenal pitching coach as your manager--when he has NO managing experience is something that our professional football team would do--and not something that the Cincinnati Reds would do.


I too think the Bengals should hire a pitching coach.

[Kilgore_Trout]

To me Price seems to still be in spring training mode. Down 3-1 to the Cardinals, you don't pitch the guy that gets sent down when Broxton is activated.

You also don't run Pena on Molina, and you sure don't bunt Hamilton to 3B.

And if the bunt was Phillip's call, Price obviously didn't do his job during all those classroom discussions during ST.

It's been a slow start for just about everyone, and Price certainly isn't an exception. I thought the Reds passed on better options when they chose Bell for that final bullpen spot. I wasn't a fan of the decision to march him out there when the game was still in reach, but who else was available? I'm legitimately curious because I can't remember who we'd used up to that point.

I don't mind being more aggressive on the base paths, but Pena's stolen base attempt was strange. As was BP bunting with no outs and a man on second. I really hope the bunting dies down a bit.

[Don Votto]

`Ahhh Bryan Price.....

Ohhh to have a winning manager back with experience.... memories....