World Cup 2014

[Chip R]

I see the Germans are playing keep-away. That's a skill the US could have used against Portugal.

[Kingspoint]

The US sure whines a lot. It's embarrassing.

[Kingspoint]

Losing 1-0 to Germany is a win, if you ask me.

[M2]

Bedoya picked the wrong post. Should have been a goal.

[Kingspoint]

Congratulations to the U.S. squad!

[RedTeamGo!]

The US sure whines a lot. It's embarrassing.

That was a horrendous non-call.

I completely disagree with your statement, the US complains the least of any team I can think of.

[SunDeck]

This is the same thing that has bummed me out about US soccer for a long time. On offense, compared to Germany, things move way too fast for them, almost frantic. Germany in the US defensive third frequently has a complex set of options, resulting in diagonal passes, moving back out to the edge of the box then in again for another through ball, etc. The US is almost always north and south, often moving very fast and when they are out at the top of the box, they just don't have the same set of options because they are only oriented to outrunning the defense on through balls from midfield rather than creating plays around the box.

But I'm happy with 0-1 today.

[M2]

Job #1 done. We survived the Group of Death, and it really was a group of death. Portugal and Ghana are two excellent teams and they're going home.

[Kingspoint]

That was a horrendous non-call.



The defender crossed in front of him and then got to the ball before he fell away. There was nothing there.

The U.S. may not whine as much as other clubs, but they still whine a lot. Just play through things. Quit flopping trying to get a call. Hate flopping in all sports.

[Kingspoint]

Job #1 done. We survived the Group of Death, and it really was a group of death. Portugal and Ghana are two excellent teams and they're going home.

Yes. Did not expect the U.S. to get through it. Great job surviving it.

[tomnuetten]

not the most entertaining game to watch.. but both sides can be happy with the result.

I was a little bit surprised that the us didn´t attack at all after germany scored (until the last 5 minutes) altough one goal from ghana could have been the out... they didn´t allow that many chances for germany but shooting twice on goal is not enough going forward...

germany is good offensively (altough they have problems like every team against teams defending with 10 in the box) but bad defensively and the midfield isn´t that good if you put pressure on them

[The DARK]

So it looks like we'll be playing Belgium in knockout rounds unless we see some major upsets in the next round. On the bright side, we won't be playing until July 1, so we'll have some time to regroup.

[RedTeamGo!]

The defender crossed in front of him and then got to the ball before he fell away. There was nothing there.

The U.S. may not whine as much as other clubs, but they still whine a lot. Just play through things. Quit flopping trying to get a call. Hate flopping in all sports.

I rarely see the US flop. Dempsey going down was not a flop, he got hit in the broken nose.

I was talking about the Fabian Johnson non-call.

[redhawkfish]

I am very happy with the USA advancement to the round of 16! I normally despise the talking heads at ESPN, but have thoroughly enjoyed the studio groups and game announcers for this World Cup.

[westofyou]

Germany completed 713 passes, tied for the 3rd most in a World Cup match in the last 50 years.

[BuckeyeRed27]

not the most entertaining game to watch.. but both sides can be happy with the result.

I was a little bit surprised that the us didn´t attack at all after germany scored (until the last 5 minutes) altough one goal from ghana could have been the out... they didn´t allow that many chances for germany but shooting twice on goal is not enough going forward...

germany is good offensively (altough they have problems like every team against teams defending with 10 in the box) but bad defensively and the midfield isn´t that good if you put pressure on them

I don't think it was for lack of trying. The US had a few chances to counter, but could never seem to get it quite right.

I thought the overall strategy to defend and counter was the right one. This was a game that screamed for Altidore to be the outlet guy. I think they could have won the game had he been healthy.

[RedTeamGo!]

I don't get why Klins isn't using Wondo, Johannson or Diskerud

[bucksfan2]

Leaving up to today's game no team won a game after playing in Manaus. I think Portugal's win today would have been the first all tournament. Couple that with German getting an extra day's rest and you already had a tough mountain to climb let alone playing one of the top teams in the tournament.

Kudos to the Americans for getting out of the group of death. Even more impressive when you consider their best player in Bradley has played poorly and one of their other best players has played 25 minutes in the tournament. In what I have seen the US can play with pretty much every team in the tournament sans the likes of Germany, Brasil, the Dutch and maybe the French.

[Slyder]

I haven't had a chance to watch a lot of the other countries in the World Cup. Who is the better matchup for US Algeria or Netherlands (I think thats the two scenarios)?

[Slyder]

I don't get why Klins isn't using Wondo, Johannson or Diskerud

I was surprised Jones didn't get pulled after that headbutt, 1 Injury Concern, 2 working with a yellow, 3 just to get some fresher legs on the pitch.

[BuckeyeRed27]

I haven't had a chance to watch a lot of the other countries in the World Cup. Who is the better matchup for US Algeria or Netherlands (I think thats the two scenarios)?

The US is going to play Belgium barring something crazy happening. They have an extremely outside chance of playing Algeria, but that would require a lot of goals and Korea upsetting Belgium. Germany will play the winner of the Algeria/Russia match once again barring something crazy happening in the Korea game.

Belgium is very good, but haven't looked fantastic in a pretty soft group. It will be a very difficult game.

[M2]

Looks like the U.S., Mexico and Costa Rica all will be playing European teams in near-equatorial locations. Heat and humidity will be major factors in those games.

The major difference in today's U.S.-Germany scoreline is Muller buried his shot from the edge of the 18-yard box and Zusi didn't. Zusi's had a higher degree of difficulty (defenders moving horizontally, keeper on his feet). Still, they were strikingly similar opportunities. Zusi hits his shot, it's a tie. And if on top of that Bedoya shoots for the back post rather than trying to go back across the keeper, then the U.S. wins.

[RedTeamGo!]

I haven't had a chance to watch a lot of the other countries in the World Cup. Who is the better matchup for US Algeria or Netherlands (I think thats the two scenarios)?

Netherlands is one of the best teams in the world.

Algeria is not.

[M2]

I haven't had a chance to watch a lot of the other countries in the World Cup. Who is the better matchup for US Algeria or Netherlands (I think thats the two scenarios)?

It's Algeria or Belgium, with Belgium vastly more likely. Algeria's a better matchup. The U.S. would own the ball against the Algerians. Belgium has a ton of talent, but it doesn't always gel on the field. The long European season and the weather also might take a toll on the Belgians in that elimination match.

[bucksfan2]

Looks like the U.S., Mexico and Costa Rica all will be playing European teams in near-equatorial locations. Heat and humidity will be major factors in those games.

The major difference in today's U.S.-Germany scoreline is Muller buried his shot from the edge of the 18-yard box and Zusi didn't. Zusi's had a higher degree of difficulty (defenders moving horizontally, keeper on his feet). Still, they were strikingly similar opportunities. Zusi hits his shot, it's a tie. And if on top of that Bedoya shoots for the back post rather than trying to go back across the keeper, then the U.S. wins.

If Zusi buries the equalizer I think the game plays out differently. I think the Germans were quite comfortable with a goal lead and didn't press to the extent they could have. The moment the score was tied I think you would have seen them press for another goal. The last thing they wanted was for the US to go ahead and win the group. On that field and weather conditions a simple slip or bad bounce could have set someone free for a good chance.

[Hoosier Red]

Looks like the U.S., Mexico and Costa Rica all will be playing European teams in near-equatorial locations. Heat and humidity will be major factors in those games.

The major difference in today's U.S.-Germany scoreline is Muller buried his shot from the edge of the 18-yard box and Zusi didn't. Zusi's had a higher degree of difficulty (defenders moving horizontally, keeper on his feet). Still, they were strikingly similar opportunities. Zusi hits his shot, it's a tie. And if on top of that Bedoya shoots for the back post rather than trying to go back across the keeper, then the U.S. wins.

One thing Zusi's effort got me thinking about was that it seems to my untrained eye as if players curling those shots in tend to miss harmlessly high or wide if they're going to miss. Of course when the shot goes in, it looks stupendous, but it seems to hurt the overall scoring chance. Wouldn't it be better to err on the side of keeping the ball in frame? On Zusi's in particular, it looked as though any rebound opportunity would almost definitely have been a goal and what has a higher percentage of success, a ball that curls in just perfectly or one that the keeper has to make a save on and potentially leads to additional shots?

[tomnuetten]

Looks like the U.S., Mexico and Costa Rica all will be playing European teams in near-equatorial locations. Heat and humidity will be major factors in those games.

The major difference in today's U.S.-Germany scoreline is Muller buried his shot from the edge of the 18-yard box and Zusi didn't. Zusi's had a higher degree of difficulty (defenders moving horizontally, keeper on his feet). Still, they were strikingly similar opportunities. Zusi hits his shot, it's a tie. And if on top of that Bedoya shoots for the back post rather than trying to go back across the keeper, then the U.S. wins.

germany was not bad but they didn´t give 100%, after the goal they didn´t do much offensively at all, only horizontal passes no dangerous vertical passes. The us did a good job defencively but I did see more differencies than the Zusi-Müller chance though ;)

[M2]

One thing Zusi's effort got me thinking about was that it seems to my untrained eye as if players curling those shots in tend to miss harmlessly high or wide if they're going to miss. Of course when the shot goes in, it looks stupendous, but it seems to hurt the overall scoring chance. Wouldn't it be better to err on the side of keeping the ball in frame? On Zusi's in particular, it looked as though any rebound opportunity would almost definitely have been a goal and what has a higher percentage of success, a ball that curls in just perfectly or one that the keeper has to make a save on and potentially leads to additional shots?

My guess is Zusi elevated it a bit because of the defenders coming across the box. He probably wanted to avoid something like what happened to Bedoya at the end of the game. So getting some air under it wasn't a terrible idea, just it was too much air.

A few things can elevate the ball inadvertently. 1) Setting your plant foot slightly behind the ball (didn't notice if that happened in Zusi's case). 2) Taking your eye off the ball and striking under it (note how Ronaldo and Messi always have their eyes on the ball when they're shooting). 3) The balls keep getting lighter, which means they really take off when you strike them. Every little nuance gets magnified. In this case I think it was probably a case of the third factor: Zusi went for the upper corner and missed it slightly.

[M2]

gThe us did a good job defencively but I did see more differencies than the Zusi-Müller chance though ;)

Aesthetically there were large differences, and let's face it, most of a soccer game is the aesthetics. However, the scoreline came down to a few opportunities. The U.S. definitely had a chance to smash and grab that one.

[Tony Cloninger]

Off subject but I was curious since everyone here is pretty much fans of USA NT..... but in 1994 did they ever review and punish the Brazilian who elbowed the USA player and almost killed him?

[RedFanAlways1966]

Off subject but I was curious since everyone here is pretty much fans of USA NT..... but in 1994 did they ever review and punish the Brazilian who elbowed the USA player and almost killed him?

4 games and a fine, Cannot get the Google link to work! I found thru Google though. USA player was Ramos and Brazilian was Leonardo.

[Tony Cloninger]

4 games and a fine, Cannot get the Google link to work! I found thru Google though. USA player was Ramos and Brazilian was Leonardo.

OK. I was not sure. I thought he never got a card during the game and it was swept under the rug for the rest of the tournament.

I am having many discussions with people in Uruguay about Suarez. Clearly a majority is not happy of his actions, while some try to excuse his win at all costs and street ball mentality.

I already told them if this was a one time incident there would not be this much outrage (English Press excluded of course, since they set the bar for what is proper)
But he has had too many incidents like this and it is time to move on from him.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Belgium down to 10 men. They have a +2 over Algeria right now (who is trailing) If Algeria can make a come back and Korea can take advantage of the man down that would be enough to swing the GD and the US would play Algeria instead of Belgium.

Edit: Algeria has scored. GD is now +1 to Belgium. If Algeria scores and Korea scores, the US is playing Algeria.

[tomnuetten]

OK. I was not sure. I thought he never got a card during the game and it was swept under the rug for the rest of the tournament.

I am having many discussions with people in Uruguay about Suarez. Clearly a majority is not happy of his actions, while some try to excuse his win at all costs and street ball mentality.

I already told them if this was a one time incident there would not be this much outrage (English Press excluded of course, since they set the bar for what is proper)
But he has had too many incidents like this and it is time to move on from him.

I would have no problem with it as a coach if he goes over the top sometimes to help his team. he did it for example with the handsave during the last world cup, he got a red card but it helped his team to win the game. a hard tackle can happen etc.

biting someone is just stupid and doesn´t helpt to win at all. I like him as a player, but it is very hard to root for him if he can´t get his sh1t together...

[BuckeyeRed27]

USA vs. Belgium it is.
Algeria will take on Germany.

Knock out round time!

[Hoosier Red]

OK. I was not sure. I thought he never got a card during the game and it was swept under the rug for the rest of the tournament.

I am having many discussions with people in Uruguay about Suarez. Clearly a majority is not happy of his actions, while some try to excuse his win at all costs and street ball mentality.

I already told them if this was a one time incident there would not be this much outrage (English Press excluded of course, since they set the bar for what is proper)
But he has had too many incidents like this and it is time to move on from him.

Tony,

I'm curious, how is his handball from the last world cup perceived in Uruguay? In my mind, it was a desperate but cagey play. It's looked at as much more significant because of course the opponent missed the ensuing penalty kick. But I've heard that lumped in with his other misdeeds which to me is incorrect.

[Tony Cloninger]

I would have no problem with it as a coach if he goes over the top sometimes to help his team. he did it for example with the handsave during the last world cup, he got a red card but it helped his team to win the game. a hard tackle can happen etc.

biting someone is just stupid and doesn´t helpt to win at all. I like him as a player, but it is very hard to root for him if he can´t get his sh1t together...


Oh I agree. Do not get me wrong. A majority of people are not happy with this down there.

The win at all costs mentality that made Uruguay, due to it's size and economy, a pariah in world football from the mid 70's into the late 90's.... I thought was a thing of the past.

It has taken all the joy out of watching this tournament for me. I would have preferred to gone out like England did..... I think.

[Tony Cloninger]

Tony,

I'm curious, how is his handball from the last world cup perceived in Uruguay? In my mind, it was a desperate but cagey play. It's looked at as much more significant because of course the opponent missed the ensuing penalty kick. But I've heard that lumped in with his other misdeeds which to me is incorrect.


It was pretty much close 100% as what anyone would have done.

I wished he would have been able to head it away...... but that would mean he would have to have been Quicksilver to do it.

Even Lalas.....who seems to bastion of purity about what should go on in the pitch agreed with it.

His glee about doing it rubbed a lot of people the wrong way even more so. But I could not see him acting some other way....as it would have been phony to do so, but at least covered his behind.

If that was it...... even with the diving he was doing prior to this year...... most people would not hate him like they do. Even the racial incident, which I am not downplaying ....as I think Suarez saw
the word was pissing Evra off, when it is a common word said among tons of SA people of all races and there is little of the racial overtones that make it a more sensitive word in the US and England.

Bottom line...... the Hand is such a minor thing now in comparison to the Hannibal Lecter act.

[tomnuetten]

Oh I agree. Do not get me wrong. A majority of people are not happy with this down there.

The win at all costs mentality that made Uruguay, due to it's size and economy, a pariah in world football from the mid 70's into the late 90's.... I thought was a thing of the past.

It has taken all the joy out of watching this tournament for me. I would have preferred to gone out like England did..... I think.


I still hope that they advance deep into the tournament, one bad incident or one "bad human" being (can´t really judge it, I don´t know him personaly but his on field biting incidents are hard to swallow :D ) can´t change that

the uruguay team is more than suarez

[Tony Cloninger]

I still hope that they advance deep into the tournament, one bad incident or one "bad human" being (can´t really judge it, I don´t know him personaly but his on field biting incidents are hard to swallow :D ) can´t change that

the uruguay team is more than suarez

Thanks!

They feed off his energy and he is Recoba and Forlan combined with a crazy killer instinct that engulfs his ability to stay sane.

They will go back to hardcore defending, as they have really since the CR game and they sat Lugano and luckily the other Periera down, with a RC as a blessing in disguise.

I wish they would play Abel Hernandez though either start him or sub him in for Forlan, if they play Forlan with Cavani.

Their U-20 Team made the finals and half of those guys made the U-17 final as well....that is where they needed to bring more help for. They only brought Jose Gimenez, who has now replaced Lugano and done well
with his AM teammate... Godin.

It looks like a Copa America tourney now with Brazil/Chile and Uruguay/Colombia followed by the winner of those 2 games in the Quarters. Too bad, but it gives teams like CR or Greece a chance to advance.

[tomnuetten]

Thanks!

It looks like a Copa America tourney now with Brazil/Chile and Uruguay/Colombia followed by the winner of those 2 games in the Quarters. Too bad, but it gives teams like CR or Greece a chance to advance.

it is a shame to see greece advance (hard to watch this team 90 minutes) costa rica played great so far and could give a big team a tough match...

[Tony Cloninger]

it is a shame to see greece advance (hard to watch this team 90 minutes) costa rica played great so far and could give a big team a tough match...


I was rooting for Iran to beat Argentina .....Heck Bosnia could have at least secured a draw as well.

It is my given right as an Uruguayan to dislike Argentina though. :D

Greece..... if you do not like their style of play.... think of Uruguay in the 70's ...in their last of 4 consecutive WC appearances in 1974, in the opening game against Total Football Holland being unleashed.

Really ugly and cynical futbol and it took them 25 years to stop playing this way really.

I am rooting for Costa Rica. They came to play and not just show up.

[tomnuetten]

I can understand why greece plays the way they do.. they even won a european championship this way some years ago (with a german coach). they don´t have the players to play a possesion game and they are way to slow to play early pressing.. they can only park the bus and hope for some standart situation and a lucky goal.

I understand that they "have to do it because it gives them the best chances" but I still don´t like it and hope other teams advance

[Tony Cloninger]

I can understand why greece plays the way they do.. they even won a european championship this way some years ago (with a german coach). they don´t have the players to play a possesion game and they are way to slow to play early pressing.. they can only park the bus and hope for some standart situation and a lucky goal.

I understand that they "have to do it because it gives them the best chances" but I still don´t like it and hope other teams advance


I agree. Greece has no players with any pace in the whole country? :laugh:

[Caveat Emperor]

On to Belgium.

I'm officially having nightmares about what Eden Hazard is going to do to the US defense.

[RedTeamGo!]

On to Belgium.

I'm officially having nightmares about what Eden Hazard is going to do to the US defense.

I am full expecting the US to lose, just way too much talent on Belgium. When I look at other national teams I think to myself "what US players would start for them?" The only US player I think would start for Belgium is Howard.

[BuckeyeRed27]

I am full expecting the US to lose, just way too much talent on Belgium. When I look at other national teams I think to myself "what US players would start for them?" The only US player I think would start for Belgium is Howard.

I know they are a very talented team and I do think they should win this game, but they also haven't impressed me much so far in this tournament. I'll take out the last game because they didn't start their full squad, I thought they looked very average in the Algeria and particularly in the Russia games. I think the biggest benefit they have coming into the game is that they did get to rest some big players for their last game, but the back ups were not impressive.

[M2]

I am full expecting the US to lose, just way too much talent on Belgium. When I look at other national teams I think to myself "what US players would start for them?" The only US player I think would start for Belgium is Howard.

I think the U.S. wins this one. The Americans just faced three beasts and lived to tell the tale. Belgium kind of muddled its way to three one-goal wins over three of the weakest teams in the tournament. It has a ton of talent, but I like the U.S. backline better than Belgium's and I kind of doubt the Belgians will be ready to respond when they run into a team that's going out there with the full intention of beating them. Basically I think the U.S. is going to teach them a lesson about what a knockout round is all about.

[tomnuetten]

I am full expecting the US to lose, just way too much talent on Belgium. When I look at other national teams I think to myself "what US players would start for them?" The only US player I think would start for Belgium is Howard.

Howard would not start over Courtois, who is only 22 years old and already seen as one of the top5 goalies (some consider him the best)...

belgium is talented, one of the most talented teams this year but they didn´t look that good so far. hazard, de bruyne and (to some degree) dembele are all creative players but they didn´t played the way they can so far.
they have great names but lots of the players play out of position and you can see that they do.

the us don´t have the talent those guys have (I would say at every position) but they showed so far that they have heart, a good gameplay/strategy and play as a team, something the belgians didn´t show so far...
I think the us chances aren´t that bad

[IslandRed]

When it gets right down to it, most of the more-talented teams at the World Cup are somewhat less than the sum of the parts. The talent isn't always well-distributed across the starting eleven, guys play out of position like tomnuetten mentioned (the other day, they were talking about how Germany's back four are all center backs normally), and they don't have enough practice time to be totally in tune with each other offensively.

So yeah, I grant that Belgium has more talent but that doesn't mean they're going to be the better team Tuesday.

[fearofpopvol1]

I think Belgium is the more talented team. However, the one thing that gives me hope is that the US lost by 1 goal to the Germans, who are widely seen as a favorite if note THE favorite. And really, the 1 goal that was scored happened because of bad luck. The US played great defense that game and the Germans did not go easy on the US at any point in time.

At a minimum, I fully the expect the US to be competitive in the game.

[5TimeWSChamps]

Altidore jogging at practice

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BrLC40oCAAAiQOt.jpg:large

[Caveat Emperor]

I don't take a lot from the Germany game. Both coaches were playing pretty close to the vest. Germany, especially, pulled back heavily once they got their one goal.

[paintmered]

I'm getting the sense that Brazil and Chile aren't the best of friends.

[westofyou]

I'm getting the sense that Brazil and Chile aren't the best of friends.

Brazil has never lost at home to Chili 20-0-6

[Chip R]

How was that a hand ball?

[Slyder]

How was that a hand ball?

Arm played the ball down to his feet.

At that level of play, I agree with the referee.

[Chip R]

Arm played the ball down to his feet.

At that level of play, I agree with the referee.

OK, thanks. I didn't know hand ball also meant arm ball too. I just thought you couldn't touch it with the hands.

[dougdirt]

Mexico is ahead of the Netherlands in the second half. Wouldn't have believed that one if you had told me before things got started today, last week or the start of the month.

[dougdirt]

I opened my mouth. 20 minutes later it's 2-1 Netherlands in stoppage time.

[WMR]

Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!

Perfect. Just perfect.

Most painful way possible for Mexico to lose.

Hahahahahaha. LMAO.

[reds1869]

I am a life long Bayern fan, but I'm not a Robben fan. How can someone who is known as a diver still get away with it so often?

[WMR]

I am a life long Bayern fan, but I'm not a Robben fan. How can someone who is known as a diver still get away with it so often?

You stick your foot out in the box, that's what happens.

[reds1869]

You stick your foot out in the box, that's what happens.

True enough. I'm glad to see Mexico eliminated but I'd rather it happen in the run of play, not on a PK earned for a dive.

[paintmered]

And the best part, no more games with the ESPN announcers pandering to the Mexicans.

[WMR]

True enough. I'm glad to see Mexico eliminated but I'd rather it happen in the run of play, not on a PK earned for a dive.

It was a dive but it was also a foul.

[Caveat Emperor]

It's a foul 100 times out of 100 -- the defender stuck his foot out LATE, didn't make contact with the ball and impeded the attacking player. It's a foul, and it was properly called as such.

As far as Robben's "flop" -- it's no different than a WR falling over when someone grabs his arm on a go route or an NBA player exaggerating contact after a slap on a drive to the bucket.

[tomnuetten]

I was rooting for mexico in this game, what a tough way to lose... I don´t know how you can root for bayern and especially robben. this guy is one of the worst divers you can find. I´ll never understand why they the fifa won´t do anything against it. start to punish them afterwards if the refs can´t do it on the field

he tried it multiple times today and he will try it multiple times in the next game... pathetic

the diving dream team robben & ribery 11-12


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1rGbatibpo

[hebroncougar]

It's a foul 100 times out of 100 -- the defender stuck his foot out LATE, didn't make contact with the ball and impeded the attacking player. It's a foul, and it was properly called as such.

As far as Robben's "flop" -- it's no different than a WR falling over when someone grabs his arm on a go route or an NBA player exaggerating contact after a slap on a drive to the bucket.

Agrees. Clear foul/impediment. Mexico got what they deserved for parking the bus too early.

[reds1869]

I agree that it was a foul. The defender should never have slid in. I just hate Robben's (or any player's) embellishment. Flopping needs to be run out of sports altogether, but I realize that will never happen.

[reds1869]

I was rooting for mexico in this game, what a tough way to lose... I don´t know how you can root for bayern and especially robben. this guy is one of the worst divers you can find. I´ll never understand why they the fifa won´t do anything against it. start to punish them afterwards if the refs can´t do it on the field

he tried it multiple times today and he will try it multiple times in the next game... pathetic

I root for Bayern because I always have. My mother grew up in Bavaria as a Bayern fan and passed it on to me. I catch hell for it and understandably so, but I'm no front runner. Robben, otoh, I can't stand. FCB should take the transfer money he'd bring and buy someone who isn't a dirty cheat.

[tomnuetten]

wow... not the day of the concacaf so far... 3 late goals (first in the mexico game and now the late goal for greece to get into extra time)

[reds1869]

I really hate the way Greece plays and hope they don't last much longer. Kudos for their food, though. :thumbup:

[5TimeWSChamps]

Joel Campbell 😍

[reds1869]

Ticos move on!

[MWM]

Wow, what an incredible 90 minutes of football (not including the first half). Costa Rica burying all 5 PKs is impressive.

[M2]

Costa Rica was on fire with those PKs. It was like they were having a contest to see who could put it through the back of the net.

I was rooting for Mexico (because they come from our continental neighborhood), but the Dutch are a sympathetic choice for coming so close and missing so many times. There's a lesson there. The U.S. has been a better team than Mexico the past two years and Belgium is no better than the Netherlands. The other lesson is to move your feet on defense to stay goalside of the attacker and don't stick your foot out where it's easy for the attacker to earn a cheap penalty. It was a dive, but it was the kind of dive that draws a penalty more often than not.

[SunDeck]

The biggest reason I have never refereed soccer is the penalty. It's such a huge call to make, practically giving a team a goal. To see one awarded down on the line, when a player has dribbled himself out of room and is facing three defenders and when he's really in the process of losing the ball, is painful. It was a foul by the rules, and a stupid one because the defense had already closed in around him, but it was sad to see it awarded as it meant giving the ball back to the Dutch for a goal. It's one of the cruelties of soccer.

[M2]

Nigeria's holding its own against France, even getting the better of the play during stretches of the game. This is the same Nigeria team the U.S. thoroughly outplayed in the final World Cup tune up match. This is starting to look like it could be anybody's tournament ... and anybody includes the U.S.

[bucksfan2]

The biggest reason I have never refereed soccer is the penalty. It's such a huge call to make, practically giving a team a goal. To see one awarded down on the line, when a player has dribbled himself out of room and is facing three defenders and when he's really in the process of losing the ball, is painful. It was a foul by the rules, and a stupid one because the defense had already closed in around him, but it was sad to see it awarded as it meant giving the ball back to the Dutch for a goal. It's one of the cruelties of soccer.

I thought I saw where Robben admitted it was a flop. I thought he made a heck of a play taking it to the goal line and then cutting it up. He just ran out of room and was cornered and had no where to go. The announcer on TV said that Robben has started to fall before any contact happened. In that situation don't you have to swallow your whistle? He has 3 defenders around him, no where to go, has already started to lose possession of the ball, and no advantage was gained by the foul. Knowing Robben's propensity for diving shouldn't the official have known better?

I think the flopping and writhing on the ground in pain after minimal contact is one reason whey a lot of Americans can't get behind soccer. We have grown up playing games where if we fall down your told to get up as soon as possible. In international soccer when they go to the ground you see them writing around in pain. You watch the USMNT play and they take a beating but get back up. If Robben took the kind of beating Dempsey took he would be on the ground for half the match.

[Hoosier Red]

I think the flopping and writhing on the ground in pain after minimal contact is one reason whey a lot of Americans can't get behind soccer. We have grown up playing games where if we fall down your told to get up as soon as possible. In international soccer when they go to the ground you see them writing around in pain. You watch the USMNT play and they take a beating but get back up. If Robben took the kind of beating Dempsey took he would be on the ground for half the match.

I dunno, that's always brought up as a reason, but is it really different than flopping to draw a charge call, or a wide receiver flailing at contact? I suppose the fact that players stay down is part of it, but I tend to think the flailing is not so much an act normally. Plenty of football/basketball players limp to the sideline but there's little reason to in futbol unless the player's going to be substituted for.

[WMR]

I thought I saw where Robben admitted it was a flop. I thought he made a heck of a play taking it to the goal line and then cutting it up. He just ran out of room and was cornered and had no where to go. The announcer on TV said that Robben has started to fall before any contact happened. In that situation don't you have to swallow your whistle? He has 3 defenders around him, no where to go, has already started to lose possession of the ball, and no advantage was gained by the foul. Knowing Robben's propensity for diving shouldn't the official have known better?

I think the flopping and writhing on the ground in pain after minimal contact is one reason whey a lot of Americans can't get behind soccer. We have grown up playing games where if we fall down your told to get up as soon as possible. In international soccer when they go to the ground you see them writing around in pain. You watch the USMNT play and they take a beating but get back up. If Robben took the kind of beating Dempsey took he would be on the ground for half the match.

You must not watch much NBA...

[M2]

Antoine Griezmann completely changed the match when he entered. If he keeps that up Real Sociedad is going to get an offer it can't refuse for his services.

[IslandRed]

I thought I saw where Robben admitted it was a flop.

He admitted he had flopped during that game, but on a different play. In the big picture, it probably came out in the wash. He absolutely drew a penalty in the first half that wasn't called, and with a 1-0 lead at halftime that's a totally different game.


The other lesson is to move your feet on defense to stay goalside of the attacker and don't stick your foot out where it's easy for the attacker to earn a cheap penalty. It was a dive, but it was the kind of dive that draws a penalty more often than not.

Yep. Robben, much like Suarez, is extremely good at drawing legit penalties, and then tries to draw more on top of that. If a defender sticks the foot out and misses the ball, Robben's going to make the ref make a decision. Unnerving as heck for the officials, but effective. So yeah, defenders have to be super-disciplined and not take the bait.

[bucksfan2]

You must not watch much NBA...

Nope. Its part of the reason I really don't watch much NBA. I wish they would come up with a clear cut block/charge call but you can't. I do like both college and the pro's trying to eliminate it as much as possible. I do enjoy seeing a 180 pound guard knock LeBron off his feet like he was just shot.

The difference is in soccer the penalty can be massive. In certain games they Ned/Mex game it lead to the winning goal of a 2-1 game. In a NBA game it can lead to 2 points in a 100 point game.

[SunDeck]

I thought I saw where Robben admitted it was a flop.

I thought the one he admitted to was in the first half, but all I saw was the second half.






In that situation don't you have to swallow your whistle? He has 3 defenders around him, no where to go, has already started to lose possession of the ball, and no advantage was gained by the foul. Knowing Robben's propensity for diving shouldn't the official have known better?

I think the ref would have been justified not calling the penalty; he had run out of playing space and there was going to be another tackle anyway. In the replay you can see the other defender closing in on what Robben had essentially made a loose ball with his cutback.

It was also somewhat surprising to me since it seemed he was letting them hack pretty hard in the box. It's just like any sport, refs need to be consistent, but honestly I have always thought they might be better off with two referees.

[Caveat Emperor]

Nope. Its part of the reason I really don't watch much NBA. I wish they would come up with a clear cut block/charge call but you can't. I do like both college and the pro's trying to eliminate it as much as possible. I do enjoy seeing a 180 pound guard knock LeBron off his feet like he was just shot.

The difference is in soccer the penalty can be massive. In certain games they Ned/Mex game it lead to the winning goal of a 2-1 game. In a NBA game it can lead to 2 points in a 100 point game.

What about football? A WR gets up from minor contact waving his hands around and demanding a flag -- happens in just about every game. Those can be completely game-changing penalties that award 50-60 penalty yards and set teams up at the goal line for an easy score.

[Slyder]

Nope. Its part of the reason I really don't watch much NBA. I wish they would come up with a clear cut block/charge call but you can't. I do like both college and the pro's trying to eliminate it as much as possible. I do enjoy seeing a 180 pound guard knock LeBron off his feet like he was just shot.

The difference is in soccer the penalty can be massive. In certain games they Ned/Mex game it lead to the winning goal of a 2-1 game. In a NBA game it can lead to 2 points in a 100 point game.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hofst6YUktQ

You mean you don't like this in the NBA?

[SunDeck]

Thinking more about the flaws of the penalty calling, I would love to see FIFA and soccer generally consider a rules change that transforms the penalty area into a zone that allows for penalty kicks, but also other options. For instance, if a guy is bearing down on a keeper and he gets tackled illegally from behind directly in front of the goal, then the referee could award a penalty kick. However, if he's on the line as Robben was, then award a free kick from that point. It's still a very good set piece opportunity, but it's a heck of lot less definitive than a PK is. And it would seem to fit the infraction more closely. Robben was not very much of a threat when he was fouled.

I remember watching a ref bend the rules in the Bundesliga many years ago. A foul was committed out near the edge of the box, but clearly inside. Instead of a PK, he pulled the ball outside the box and awarded a free kick. What was amazing was that no one really even complained.

[bucksfan2]

What about football? A WR gets up from minor contact waving his hands around and demanding a flag -- happens in just about every game. Those can be completely game-changing penalties that award 50-60 penalty yards and set teams up at the goal line for an easy score.

Isn't there a difference between flopping to the ground without contact than whining about contact after the play is over? Robbin's flop would be akin to a WR realizing that he wasn't going to catch the ball and acting like he got hit and flailing off.

[Hoosier Red]

Isn't there a difference between flopping to the ground without contact than whining about contact after the play is over? Robbin's flop would be akin to a WR realizing that he wasn't going to catch the ball and acting like he got hit and flailing off.

I've seen both completely flailing to act like there was contact as well as embellishing the contact received. In soccer, I'd say its fairly rare for a player to completely fake contact to draw a penalty, but embellishing the contact is certainly done quite a bit.
I think the larger overall point is that there's acting in every sport. Perhaps it is different in soccer, but I'm not convinced.

It's also probably worth noting that whether the slide tackles in soccer are legal or not, they all involve tripping the offensive player. In that way it doesn't really matter the size of the tackler, it's likely to hurt the player who is tackled.

[SunDeck]

Germany's back line is looking pretty shaky. I think they will win; it seems they are figuring things out on the other end, but Algeria will make this interesting. Bummed I have to miss the second half.
Stupid work.

[RedFanAlways1966]

So why not move the penalty kick back to about twice the distance it is now? I am sure this subject has been discussed all over the soccer world. It is TOO CLOSE. Even if the foul was committed in the box. At least give the goalie a 20% chance rather than the 5% chance he has now. Too damn easy and makes it less exciting when these things happen or there is a game that ends in a shootout.

[SunDeck]

So why not move the penalty kick back to about twice the distance it is now? I am sure this subject has been discussed all over the soccer world. It is TOO CLOSE. Even if the foul was committed in the box. At least give the goalie a 20% chance rather than the 5% chance he has now. Too damn easy and makes it less exciting when these things happen or there is a game that ends in a shootout.

I think the difficulty there is that the PK should represent an answer to a foul that prevents a player from shooting on a keeper who is obviously outmatched. Let's say a guy wipes out a player's legs on the edge of the goal box in front of an open goal. Awarding a PK from, say, 18 yards makes that penalty worth it every time.

[Yachtzee]

Germany's back line is looking pretty shaky. I think they will win; it seems they are figuring things out on the other end, but Algeria will make this interesting. Bummed I have to miss the second half.
Stupid work.

Germany seems slow all around. Algeria looks much more feisty. One thing I noticed is that Germany played all its group games in the hot and humid north, having played in Fortaleza, Salvadore, and Recife. Meanwhile, Algeria has played in the cooler south, namely Curitiba, Porto Alegra, and Belo Horizonte. Thus, I wonder how much travel and climate has affected each team.

My concern is how this might affect the US vs. Belgium.

[Hoosier Red]

So why not move the penalty kick back to about twice the distance it is now? I am sure this subject has been discussed all over the soccer world. It is TOO CLOSE. Even if the foul was committed in the box. At least give the goalie a 20% chance rather than the 5% chance he has now. Too damn easy and makes it less exciting when these things happen or there is a game that ends in a shootout.

Should note that in the 2 PK shootouts so far in the tournament, shooters are 13 of 20. Although on Penalties awarded during the game, I believe it was 9 of 10. Combined that puts the total at 22 of 30 which is certainly enough of a chance at failure to meet your requirement.

[Yachtzee]

Bonus soccer in the Algeria Germany match.

[SunDeck]

Just got it on my computer to see the German goal. Quality play, right there.

[Yachtzee]

Germany pulls it out in extra time, although Algeria made it close. I wonder how much Germany has left in the tank for Friday.

Neuer deserves Man of the Match for all those clearances he had to make when the German back line got caught too high.

[tomnuetten]

Germany pulls it out in extra time, although Algeria made it close. I wonder how much Germany has left in the tank for Friday.

Neuer deserves Man of the Match for all those clearances he had to make when the German back line got caught too high.

I saw to many times that neuer misplayed those clear attempts that I don´t like what he does..sometimes it helps but very often it is stupid because germany would be in less danger if he stays in goal. he goes out of the box way to much. if he is to late or misplays it it is a goal or a red card (happend both in the past). if a defender is next to the strike and the ball flies towards the corner he has no reason to leave the box.

germany had some good chances in the first 90 minutes but algeria was good. as soon as germany gets lots of pressure in midfield they have big problems. I feel for algeria who worked very hard

[Yachtzee]

Future Soccer Note: 2016 is shaping up to be a big summer for soccer. Not only will there be the usual European Championship and the Olympic tournament, but the US will be hosting the Copa America Centenario, involving the 10 teams from CONMEBOL and 6 teams from CONCACAF. June 2016 could literally be wall to wall soccer some days with mornings of Euro 2016 followed by evenings of Copa America Centenario.

[SunDeck]

Future Soccer Note: 2016 is shaping up to be a big summer for soccer. Not only will there be the usual European Championship and the Olympic tournament, but the US will be hosting the Copa America Centenario, involving the 10 teams from CONMEBOL and 6 teams from CONCACAF. June 2016 could literally be wall to wall soccer some days with mornings of Euro 2016 followed by evenings of Copa America Centenario.

That's a busy month- maybe we should all rent a condo at the beach. Kids and disinterested spouses can hit the water while soccer nerds occupy the TV.

[RedTeamGo!]

I can barely contain myself for 4pm today, I don't really know what to do with myself.

My brain tells me Belgium is going to win. My heart says the US is going to show Belgium how we do things downtown.

[bucksfan2]

Germany seems slow all around. Algeria looks much more feisty. One thing I noticed is that Germany played all its group games in the hot and humid north, having played in Fortaleza, Salvadore, and Recife. Meanwhile, Algeria has played in the cooler south, namely Curitiba, Porto Alegra, and Belo Horizonte. Thus, I wonder how much travel and climate has affected each team.

My concern is how this might affect the US vs. Belgium.

Early in the match the commentator said the German back 4 are slow. They touched on it multiple times in the US game how the Germans use 4 center backs in their defense, 4 guys who aren't used to having to play the wing.

The Germans looked bad for the first 60 or 70 minutes of the game. They turned it on late in regular time and had a number of chances to end the game before going to extra time. One massive bonus the Germans have is they can bring off the bench a world class midfielder or striker where most teams have only a few on their entire roster. If they continue their slow starts someone is going to get up and put up a goal or two and make the Germans press.

One thing I like about the American's chances is playing a European team around the equator.

[CoachBombay]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrvXoin9NcA

[SunDeck]

3pm or 4pm today? ESPN3 says 3pm. Is that pre-game?

[RedTeamGo!]

game begins at 4pm

[RedTeamGo!]

Can't really take this anticipation. Feel like punching my boss in the face and run out the door screaming "USA! USA! USA!"

[M2]

Can't really take this anticipation. Feel like punching my boss in the face and run out the door screaming "USA! USA! USA!"

Definitely do that. I'm sure there'll be no repercussions.

[RedTeamGo!]

Definitely do that. I'm sure there'll be no repercussions.

I think it would be unpatriotic of him to be upset.

[SunDeck]

I'm sure he'd dive anyway. Do it.

[SunDeck]

Wow, Messi.

[Yachtzee]

That's a busy month- maybe we should all rent a condo at the beach. Kids and disinterested spouses can hit the water while soccer nerds occupy the TV.

Now that sounds like an excellent idea.

[RedTeamGo!]

Welp, I just got home. My boss was screaming something about "fireable offense" as I ran to my car. Not sure what he meant. :dunno:

[BuckeyeRed27]

Welp, I just got home. My boss was screaming something about "fireable offense" as I ran to my car. Not sure what he meant. :dunno:

I'm pretty sure he meant "I BELIEVE THAT WE WILL WIN!"

[5TimeWSChamps]

USMNT XI: Howard; Johnson, Gonzalez, Besler, Beasley; Zusi, Cameron, Bradley, Jones, Bedoya; Dempsey.

[Yachtzee]

USMNT XI: Howard; Johnson, Gonzalez, Besler, Beasley; Zusi, Cameron, Bradley, Jones, Bedoya; Dempsey.

Seems a bit overly defensive. I would have liked to have seen maybe Mix Diskerud instead of Bedoya and Beckerman over Gonzalez.

[reds1869]

Let's do this thing!

[5TimeWSChamps]

Back into survival mode

[The DARK]

Scary, scary half. Amazed it's still 0-0.

[WMR]

Very happy to see USA trying to score and not just parking the bus.

[SunDeck]

Welp, I just got home. My boss was screaming something about "fireable offense" as I ran to my car. Not sure what he meant. :dunno:



It means you're free to watch the rest of the World Cup. Well played!

[cumberlandreds]

It means you're free to watch the rest of the World Cup. Well played!

And anything else for that matter. :)

[reds1869]

Yedlin is giving the US exactly what we need. The kid has a bright future.

[SunDeck]

Yedlin, I like this kid. I think if they score, it will involve him.

[SunDeck]

No Tim Howard, No USMNT today.

[paintmered]

Wondo had the game winner served to him on a silver platter and he flubbed it.

Can Timmy possibly stand on his head for another half hour?

[KronoRed]

I hope that isn't a shot we remember for 4 years.

[dougdirt]

I hope that isn't a shot we remember for 4 years.

.....

[tomnuetten]

wow tough way to lose, but they sure can walk away with the head up! great fight until the end. that´s something klinsmann stands for, but having a coach like this is one thing, the guy on the fields have to follow and they did! great chances at the end and unlucky to lose this way, but looking at the full 120minutes belgium did deserve it imo

[WMR]

I hope that isn't a shot we remember for 4 years.

Irrelevant, the idiotic linesman called it offside.

[WMR]

LD buries that 99 out of 100.

Why the hell was Klinsmann holding onto his last sub in extra time? Our guys were completely exhausted.

Howard was amazing.

Bradley had a dreadful world cup.

[RedTeamGo!]

Absolutely proud of the United States national team!

- - - Updated - - -


LD buries that 99 out of 100.

Why the hell was Klinsmann holding onto his last sub in extra time? Our guys were completely exhausted.

Howard was amazing.

Bradley had a dreadful world cup.

Bradley played really well today.

[dabvu2498]

Irrelevant, the idiotic linesman called it offside.

Nah. Watch it again. The Belgian defender is asking for offsides. Announcers called it wrong. Eventually corrected it, saying he was waving for a goal kick.

[WMR]

Nah. Watch it again. The Belgian defender is asking for offsides. Announcers called it wrong. Eventually corrected it, saying he was waving for a goal kick.

Seriously? Ughhhhh... that makes it 1000x worse.

[Slyder]

Irrelevant, the idiotic linesman called it offside.

He was waving the goal kick, not offsides.

[Caveat Emperor]

I don't do "moral victories" and "head held high" nonsense.

The US needs to identify better midfield players who can possess the ball and generate better chances. The story is the same too often for the team -- not enough of the ball, too much defending and chasing. The "next step" for this team is gaining the ability to impose the game on the opposition. That takes better talent in the middle.

Now, the long wait for 2018.

[SunDeck]

I turn now to Germany, in honor of my family there. Honestly, I never hold out much hope for the US side for the reason CE cited, they just aren't at the level yet where they can do more than hope for some lucky cross to save them. But I am nevertheless impressed with what they were able to do at times during this WC, a good step in the right direction.

[IslandRed]

The US needs to identify better midfield players who can possess the ball and generate better chances. The story is the same too often for the team -- not enough of the ball, too much defending and chasing. The "next step" for this team is gaining the ability to impose the game on the opposition. That takes better talent in the middle.

Generally agree, although I think "develop" is a better word than "identify." I don't think we're choosing the wrong players, we just don't have world-class midfielders to choose from.

The biggest thing I saw today, we gave the ball away an awful lot transitioning from defense to offense, especially on that first pass upfield to Not Altidore. I didn't realize until he went out just how much we relied on using him as the outlet guy for the transitions, to win and hold up the ball until the other guys could get into the play. I suppose the fact that we needed him to do this was a commentary on the midfield.

[The DARK]

I don't do "moral victories" and "head held high" nonsense.

The US needs to identify better midfield players who can possess the ball and generate better chances. The story is the same too often for the team -- not enough of the ball, too much defending and chasing. The "next step" for this team is gaining the ability to impose the game on the opposition. That takes better talent in the middle.

Now, the long wait for 2018.

Agreed. Klinsmann did the best he could with the team in a short amount of time: make sure the USMNT were able to punch above their weight with good athleticism and cohesiveness. That's good for punishing cluttered teams like Portugal, but it left a lot of situations today where the US midfielders had no idea what to do next and made some consistently awful turnovers that should have been punished much harder.

Here's hoping we can send more players abroad and/or ramp up the MLS competition and coaching in the next four years. From the looks of this cup, we've got a lot of nice young talent that can hopefully make us into a more serious threat come Moscow.

[BillDoran]

Generally agree, although I think "develop" is a better word than "identify." I don't think we're choosing the wrong players, we just don't have world-class midfielders to choose from.

The biggest thing I saw today, we gave the ball away an awful lot transitioning from defense to offense, especially on that first pass upfield to Not Altidore. I didn't realize until he went out just how much we relied on using him as the outlet guy for the transitions, to win and hold up the ball until the other guys could get into the play. I suppose the fact that we needed him to do this was a commentary on the midfield.

I'm a once-every-four-years-fan, so any observations should be taken with salt, but after watching a healthy amount of the World Cup, I agree with CE and yourself, the USMNT glaringly lacks the ability possess the ball. Our first touches, in particular, leave one wanting. We seem to largely be on par athletically, but short in technical skills like trapping the ball and accurate passing. It can make for an incredibly frustrating watch, as these abilities look simple to the casual observer, but are actually the difference between the mediocre and good and the good and the elite. It's incredible to watch the Messi's of the world operate in tight spaces (and I think this is where Dempsey is near world class).

We seem to be short some creativity as well, but on the pyramid of soccer actualization that seems to come much later.

All together a good showing from the USMNT. Outstanding work by Howard, lots of heart and grit, and some really exciting matches. I believe that...the program is going in the right direction.

[Caveat Emperor]

Here's hoping we can send more players abroad and/or ramp up the MLS competition and coaching in the next four years. From the looks of this cup, we've got a lot of nice young talent that can hopefully make us into a more serious threat come Moscow.

This is a good point.

Guys like DeAndre Yedlin need to get out of MLS. The league simply doesn't expose young players to enough quality opposition. He would definitely benefit from playing in Europe -- hopefully his performance in this World Cup has boosted his profile to the point where some team is willing to pay a transfer fee for him.

[BuckeyeRed27]

This is a good point.

Guys like DeAndre Yedlin need to get out of MLS. The league simply doesn't expose young players to enough quality opposition. He would definitely benefit from playing in Europe -- hopefully his performance in this World Cup has boosted his profile to the point where some team is willing to pay a transfer fee for him.

I don't disagree with you but our best defenders in this tournament both play in MLS. The one that struggled the most plays in the premier league and the guy that plays in the bundesliga couldn't get on the field over a converted winger who plays in Mexico.

[RedTeamGo!]

I don't disagree with you but our best defenders in this tournament both play in MLS. The one that struggled the most plays in the premier league and the guy that plays in the bundesliga couldn't get on the field over a converted winger who plays in Mexico.

To be fair, Beasley played really well and deserves respect for his final World Cup performance.

[bucksfan2]

I don't disagree with you but our best defenders in this tournament both play in MLS. The one that struggled the most plays in the premier league and the guy that plays in the bundesliga couldn't get on the field over a converted winger who plays in Mexico.

Cameron was a midfielder playing defender. Beasley may be playing in Mexico but has experience playing in the Bundesliga and and the EPL. Besler had a heck of a tournament and might have been a guy with a chance to play in Europe if he were a little bit younger.

One thing I noticed it the short time that Green was on the pitch he moved very good without the ball. The other Americans struggled at doing that throughout the game, even with fresh legs. As for Yeldin he showed flashes of being a very good player. IMO he need to get out of the MLS where he is challenged constantly. He looks like the guy who can get by with freakish athletic ability against normal competition.

[Hoosier Red]

To be fair, Beasley played really well and deserves respect for his final World Cup performance.

Agreed. He was the unsung hero of the tournament. While I agree with CE's general point, this tournament was a hell of an advertisement for MLS' quality. Besler, Gonzalez, & Beckerman all more than held their own. While I'm sure there's an advantage gained by playing abroad in top leagues, there's not nearly as much of an advantage for developing players if they're going to sit on the bench or play in below the top leagues.

[SunDeck]

There were a few times when Yedlin made one of his (of many) runs to the corner, then stood and waited for movement to help make a play. When nothing materialized he cut to the line and crossed it. Meanwhile, his teammates stood like chess pieces. What the US lacks is that little something; I'm not sure what to call it exactly, but it's the soccer quality that drives players to make creative moves off the ball that facilitate some space opening up in critical areas and the recognition by the ball handler of what is about to unfold. Those movements are easy to make at midfield, and they are often the basis of overlapping runs or through balls on counter attacks. However, when things get jammed up because the ball is in the opposing team's third and the back line is holding the offense as high as it can, then it becomes a lot harder to make those moves. The US tends to wait for the ball handler to dictate what happens next, while the better teams do it as a unit. Germany, for instance, is quite good at this.
That's what the US will develop as players become more in tune with the game and I suspect it's why Klinsmann wants them to play in Europe, where they would be surrounded by higher level of play, in terms of how players learn to work as a unit rather than as individuals. That's not to say that individual talent is not important, clearly Messi proves how effective it can be. Rather, it's a matter of growing the American understanding of complicated nature of team skill, possession and creativity. I hope the MLS gets there one day, but it's difficult to see it happening in four years.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Agreed. He was the unsung hero of the tournament. While I agree with CE's general point, this tournament was a hell of an advertisement for MLS' quality. Besler, Gonzalez, & Beckerman all more than held their own. While I'm sure there's an advantage gained by playing abroad in top leagues, there's not nearly as much of an advantage for developing players if they're going to sit on the bench or play in below the top leagues.

I agree, my point wasn't to put down Beasley. There is always this rush from American fans to send players off to Europe and I think it's dumb. I said maybe in the other thread or earlier in this thread that to me it only makes sense if you are going to a team that is going to compete for Champions League spots and where you are going to play. Those situations exist, but they aren't that common. There is no reason for a player like Yedlin to go play in Norway or the Netherlands or even in a lower table EPL team. You think Brek Shea is happy with his Europe move? He still have not made the WC team, but he would have had a lot better shot playing every week for FC Dallas than not playing for Stoke and going on loan to Burnley.

There is a larger question about talent levels, but I also think there is an American stigma overseas that may or may not be true, but certainly impacts opportunites and playing time. I think the MLS has a lot better chance of becoming a better league in the next 4 years than that situation changing.

[RedTeamGo!]

I think it is important for midfielders to develop overseas. defenders and forwards, not so much.

[bucksfan2]

I think it is important for midfielders to develop overseas. defenders and forwards, not so much.

I disagree. One thing I noticed with the Germans is that on every play they were looking for a way to keep possession. Too many times you saw the US try to win the ball in the air only to head it to an opposing player. If you saw the Germans, each header was done with a distinct purpose, often times putting the ball at the feet of a teammate.

One thing was mentioned with Yedlin's play is that he often got far up on a break and was slow to get back. You can get away with stuff like that in MLS, but not in your better leagues. I don't mean for this to be a knock on the MLS, but it isn't soccer at the higher levels. It is getting better, it is getting more marquee players to play, but often times they are long in the tooth and can't play to the level required in Europe. Playing in the EPL or Bundesliga, even for lesser teams, give you the ability to compete against the best of the best. The key is finding the right time to move and the right place to go. Even though Altidore probably moved a season too quickly to the EPL, he gets to try his talents against the best there is to offer. And thankfully for a late season surge, Sunderland is in the EPL for another season. There is a reason that Jurgen is pushing for the Americans to play in European leagues.

[SunDeck]

I disagree. One thing I noticed with the Germans is that on every play they were looking for a way to keep possession. Too many times you saw the US try to win the ball in the air only to head it to an opposing player. If you saw the Germans, each header was done with a distinct purpose, often times putting the ball at the feet of a teammate.



I think it's a skills difference, quite simply. When you are good at settling, handling and possessing the ball, then the other things just occur more naturally. Confidence is huge, let's take Messi as a totally insane example of this. Because he knows he can easily move through defenders and not lose the ball, something that seems pretty unconscious to me, he's more occupied with looking at where he's going to shoot or where he's going to pass. Lower skilled players are too busy trying to beat a defender or settle the ball, so their concentration is on the move at hand, rather than on developing the play.

And this is the big difference between the US team and the others, the amount of time and space US players need is almost always higher because they are less capable to doing the skills stuff automatically. The difference is not great, but at the highest level it has a big effect. This was the thing that impressed me about them against Portugal, they handled less time and space better than I could remember. Obviously, that was not the case against Belgium...sadly.

[WMR]

I think it's a skills difference, quite simply. When you are good at settling, handling and possessing the ball, then the other things just occur more naturally. Confidence is huge, let's take Messi as a totally insane example of this. Because he knows he can easily move through defenders and not lose the ball, something that seems pretty unconscious to me, he's more occupied with looking at where he's going to shoot or where he's going to pass. Lower skilled players are too busy trying to beat a defender or settle the ball, so their concentration is on the move at hand, rather than on developing the play.

And this is the big difference between the US team and the others, the amount of time and space US players need is almost always higher because they are less capable to doing the skills stuff automatically. The difference is not great, but at the highest level it has a big effect. This was the thing that impressed me about them against Portugal, they handled less time and space better than I could remember. Obviously, that was not the case against Belgium...sadly.

If only the United States had a midfield player who could have provided linkage between the midfield and the forwards. Hmmmmm.....................................

Klinsmann's attempt to force Bradley into that role was an abortion.

[SunDeck]

It's not one player, but I get what you mean. He seemed out of sorts the entire time.

[Hoosier Red]

If only the United States had a midfield player who could have provided linkage between the midfield and the forwards. Hmmmmm.....................................

Klinsmann's attempt to force Bradley into that role was an abortion.

The complaints about Bradley were way overblown IMO.
1) The role he ended up playing was essentially what Dempsey was supposed to be doing before Altidore went out.
2) There simply weren't a lot of options for him outlet to during the group stage.
3) There's absolutely no one else on the team capable of doing it better than he did, even when he wasn't playing that well.
4) He performed exceptionally well linking between back field and attack yesterday, even as he basically had to go all the way to the back line to make it happen.

[M2]

It took me a day to get over it, but I'm feeling better now. Not good ... but better


Wondo had the game winner served to him on a silver platter and he flubbed it.

I can't believe he took his eye off the ball. Watch Wondo's eyes during his flub and then Green's eyes during his goal, and that's Technique 101 right there. You have to keep your eye on the ball to execute.


Generally agree, although I think "develop" is a better word than "identify." I don't think we're choosing the wrong players, we just don't have world-class midfielders to choose from.

I think the thing that gets in the way is that our pro, college, high school and youth clubs all put a premium on winning rather than development. What it gets you is players who are looking to grind out a 1-0 or 2-1 win rather than players who are world class on the ball and have field vision.


Guys like DeAndre Yedlin need to get out of MLS. The league simply doesn't expose young players to enough quality opposition. He would definitely benefit from playing in Europe -- hopefully his performance in this World Cup has boosted his profile to the point where some team is willing to pay a transfer fee for him.

I disagree. Yedlin got to where he is without putting a foot in Euro soccer. In Seattle he gets to play in a progressive system with a bunch of talented players. I think he's just fine where he is.


The key is finding the right time to move and the right place to go. Even though Altidore probably moved a season too quickly to the EPL, he gets to try his talents against the best there is to offer. And thankfully for a late season surge, Sunderland is in the EPL for another season. There is a reason that Jurgen is pushing for the Americans to play in European leagues.

I think you first sentence is spot on, but Altidore strikes me as primary evidence that playing in the EPL is no panacea. Sunderland doesn't play soccer. It engages in soccer's version of trench warfare. Altidore gets precious few touches in Sunderland and even less in an area of the field where he can pose a real threat. He was much better off playing champagne football in the Netherlands. That kept him sharp and allowed him to become a serious goal-scoring threat. Jurgen's got a myopic view of European football, IMO. He always played for top teams in top leagues. Yeah, if they're going to let you loose at a club like that, then go for it. However, plugging away at the bottom of the table in a top league doesn't advance your game. The right place to go is a team that's going to let your game flourish. Bedoya and Nantes is a good example.


If only the United States had a midfield player who could have provided linkage between the midfield and the forwards. Hmmmmm......................................

Klinsmann's attempt to force Bradley into that role was an abortion.

Possibly Landon would have helped, but the problem against Belgium started with the linkage between defense and midfield. Cameron was not an effective distributor. IMO, the U.S. really missed Beckerman in that game. That's the player who provides the safety valve and who shifts the angle of attack. Cameron was all destruction and no creation.

Bradley had a fairly terrible World Cup. To be fair, he was positioned like an #8 shirt, not a #10 shirt. That's his standard role and he just didn't get the job done. His first touch was heavy and his passing was mediocre (with the exception of the second OT against Belgium when he finally started passing with some fluency). I think the heat and travel hit him harder than most.

[Caveat Emperor]

I think the thing that gets in the way is that our pro, college, high school and youth clubs all put a premium on winning rather than development. What it gets you is players who are looking to grind out a 1-0 or 2-1 win rather than players who are world class on the ball and have field vision.

This. 100%. And I suppose this is a major side effect of having such a young (and still somewhat unprofitable) domestic professional league. Ideally, you'd want teams to have more youth academies and to field club-owned teams in the 2nd and 3rd divisions of U.S. Soccer. We're not at that point yet, though.



I disagree. Yedlin got to where he is without putting a foot in Euro soccer. In Seattle he gets to play in a progressive system with a bunch of talented players. I think he's just fine where he is.

Seattle is a nice team, but a player like Yedlin -- who has world-class athleticism -- needs to spend some time (even if it's just a couple seasons) against better competition than what MLS has to offer. In better leagues, he'll be forced to develop technique and less able to rely on his pure athletic gifts alone.

I agree with you (and others) about fit, however. It shouldn't be a "get to Europe however you can" -- he should definitely wait for the right opportunity where he gets the chance to play for a club that is mid-upper table in their league. It doesn't benefit him to end up somewhere like Hull or some other team struggling to hold off relegation. But, if you can find the right fit, I think most young US players should seek to do at least some "study abroad" before settling back into MLS.

[WMR]

I would be interested to see how MLS stacks up with the Coca-Cola Championship. I wish our clubs could compete in the Euro club competitions... even if they got their butts handed to them it would be great for our domestic players to see that type of quality in a non-exhibition type setting.

[M2]

This. 100%. And I suppose this is a major side effect of having such a young (and still somewhat unprofitable) domestic professional league. Ideally, you'd want teams to have more youth academies and to field club-owned teams in the 2nd and 3rd divisions of U.S. Soccer. We're not at that point yet, though.

MLS teams have been making serious headway on this. They've largely scrapped the MLS Reserve League, which was a disastrous copy of the unsuccessful English development system. There's actually a kid from right where I live who's on the cusp of debuting with the Revolution. The talk I'm hearing is their long-term plan is they build around him and Diego ***undez (who hopefully is on the U.S. roster for the 2018 World Cup). The Revs had been Stone Age on this until recently, but they've caught the development bug. I think RSL woke a lot of teams up on that.


Seattle is a nice team, but a player like Yedlin -- who has world-class athleticism -- needs to spend some time (even if it's just a couple seasons) against better competition than what MLS has to offer. In better leagues, he'll be forced to develop technique and less able to rely on his pure athletic gifts alone.

I agree with you (and others) about fit, however. It shouldn't be a "get to Europe however you can" -- he should definitely wait for the right opportunity where he gets the chance to play for a club that is mid-upper table in their league. It doesn't benefit him to end up somewhere like Hull or some other team struggling to hold off relegation. But, if you can find the right fit, I think most young US players should seek to do at least some "study abroad" before settling back into MLS.

I'm basically on the same page. Assuming Yedlin continues to develop, he'll surely head over to Europe at some point. I don't think it has to happen immediately. It really should be a case of waiting for the right opportunity to come along. It can be tough to do because players tend to follow the money/prestige when the better move might be to Girondins Bordeaux or Sporting Lisbon.

[M2]

I would be interested to see how MLS stacks up with the Coca-Cola Championship. I wish our clubs could compete in the Euro club competitions... even if they got their butts handed to them it would be great for our domestic players to see that type of quality in a non-exhibition type setting.

Just one guy's opinion, but I think MLS teams would crush Championship sides. They're terrible. Note that the U.S. players in the Championship couldn't make the U.S. squad for the World Cup. I also think Jozy Altidore wouldn't be too hard-pressed to find a better team than Sunderland if he went back to MLS.

[WMR]

Just one guy's opinion, but I think MLS teams would crush Championship sides. They're terrible. Note that the U.S. players in the Championship couldn't make the U.S. squad for the World Cup. I also think Jozy Altidore wouldn't be too hard-pressed to find a better team than Sunderland if he went back to MLS.

So you think most MLS sides would top out around mid-table of the top leagues?

[BuckeyeRed27]

So you think most MLS sides would top out around mid-table of the top leagues?

I don't think that most of the top MLS clubs currently have the depth, but if they could add a modest amount ($3-5M) to their current payrolls they could.

I think on any given day Seattle, RSL, LA, SKC and maybe a couple others are certainly as good as most mid table European teams, but coudln't hold up over a 40 game schedule without better 13-20 players.

[M2]

So you think most MLS sides would top out around mid-table of the top leagues?

I think the better MLS sides would top out there. Upper mid in the Netherlands or Portugal. One thing to remember about the Championship is the gap between that and the EPL is huge. Teams have to load up just in the hopes they can survive the season after they get promoted.


I don't think that most of the top MLS clubs currently have the depth, but if they could add a modest amount ($3-5M) to their current payrolls they could.

I think on any given day Seattle, RSL, LA, SKC and maybe a couple others are certainly as good as most mid table European teams, but coudln't hold up over a 40 game schedule without better 13-20 players.

Good point. MLS teams are getting deeper, though constant expansion has watered them down from what they could be. Yet they'd still need to add depth in order to slog through a 34- or 38-game Euro schedule. The bottom of your average MLS roster would get beaten soundly.

[Caveat Emperor]

Good point. MLS teams are getting deeper, though constant expansion has watered them down from what they could be. Yet they'd still need to add depth in order to slog through a 34- or 38-game Euro schedule. The bottom of your average MLS roster would get beaten soundly.

At some point, in the near future, MLS is going to need to make some decisions about what the future of the league is going to be. The league (after starting out as a bit "Soccer, America Style!") is slowly drifting towards trying to be more like it's worldwide counterparts, but still attempting to hold on to a lot of United States sports conventions regarding competitive balance that don't exist elsewhere.

In order to become a league that attracts/retains top-flight players, it's probably necessary to give up on the notion of competitive balance via single entity ownership, drafting and salary cap and allow some "super clubs" to emerge (a la Man United, PSG, Bayern Munich, Barcelona, etc.).

[M2]

At some point, in the near future, MLS is going to need to make some decisions about what the future of the league is going to be. The league (after starting out as a bit "Soccer, America Style!") is slowly drifting towards trying to be more like it's worldwide counterparts, but still attempting to hold on to a lot of United States sports conventions regarding competitive balance that don't exist elsewhere.

In order to become a league that attracts/retains top-flight players, it's probably necessary to give up on the notion of competitive balance via single entity ownership, drafting and salary cap and allow some "super clubs" to emerge (a la Man United, PSG, Bayern Munich, Barcelona, etc.).

Yep. Seattle and L.A. seem to be headed there. FCNY might join them once it debuts next season. If the Fire ever gets itself into Chicago proper, it will be massive as well (that city went World Cup crazy).

I think we're on the cusp of MLS deciding what it wants to be when it grows up. If it gets beyond 24 teams, it's never going to be an elite league. Recent expansion is why MLS clubs don't win the CONCACAF Champions League. RSL was on the doorstep in 2011 and I suspect one MLS team or other would have leapfrogged the Mexican teams if the league wasn't constantly thinning out the talent pool. The game really breaks down when you've got a few players who just don't have the technical ability to play in a more stylish way. I'm hoping we don't get some 32-team NFL wannabe league. The bottom third of the league will be robbing quality from the top third, and it will be an unholy mess. There is one way around that, but I'm told that it could never in a million years work in the U.S. and that owners would never do it. I don't believe the first part for a moment, though the second could be true. Still, two tiers would seem to open up the doors to expansion without kneecapping the better teams.

[tomnuetten]

as long as washed up "stars" consider the mls as good home they have a problem. most europeans (fans and players) give the mls no credit at all. they think that there are no real fans (bad atmosphere) and the product on the field isn´t good either... that´s not my idea but I have to say that I don´t really care about the mls and I doubt that the teams would play more than a mediocre role in the bundesliga, epl, la liga..


every year you hear some bungesliga players talk about a move to the mls. most times they are pretty old, have a good name but the production on the field is not bundesliga worthy... so they talk about ending the career oversea´s to get some money and new places to see. For example Hanke (a former german national team player who played last year for my favourite team but wasn´t good enough) thought about a move to the us, it looks at the moment like he choses china over the us though...

it could be possible that the mls popularity increases and the money (and perhaps fandom) will help to get some top players in the mls, but so far it is not as good as european league´s and it is still a long way to go

[IslandRed]

At some point, in the near future, MLS is going to need to make some decisions about what the future of the league is going to be. The league (after starting out as a bit "Soccer, America Style!") is slowly drifting towards trying to be more like it's worldwide counterparts, but still attempting to hold on to a lot of United States sports conventions regarding competitive balance that don't exist elsewhere.

In order to become a league that attracts/retains top-flight players, it's probably necessary to give up on the notion of competitive balance via single entity ownership, drafting and salary cap and allow some "super clubs" to emerge (a la Man United, PSG, Bayern Munich, Barcelona, etc.).

I agree with the latter paragraph in principle, but the flip side of abandoning competitive balance so that some clubs can rise above, is the creation of a semi-permanent underclass. The league has to get to the point where the "no chance" clubs could still survive. It's not impossible -- fans still show up to watch football at colleges that haven't been to a major bowl game in 40 years -- but it'll take time.

Anyway, I'm also skeptical about the prospects of promotion/relegation ever coming into MLS, but if anyone wants it to happen, they'd better do it while the majority of the top-flight teams still think they can win.

[Yachtzee]

At some point, in the near future, MLS is going to need to make some decisions about what the future of the league is going to be. The league (after starting out as a bit "Soccer, America Style!") is slowly drifting towards trying to be more like it's worldwide counterparts, but still attempting to hold on to a lot of United States sports conventions regarding competitive balance that don't exist elsewhere.

In order to become a league that attracts/retains top-flight players, it's probably necessary to give up on the notion of competitive balance via single entity ownership, drafting and salary cap and allow some "super clubs" to emerge (a la Man United, PSG, Bayern Munich, Barcelona, etc.).

Attracting or retaining top-flight players has little to do with things like competitive balance and more to do with how much money is in the league. MLS is already increasing attendance numbers to rival per game attendance of France and the Netherlands. Expanding into the Southeastern US and adding a team to NYC look to expand the league's appeal in major population areas underserved by MLS as currently structured and therefore look to bring in more TV revenue, which means more money in the league as a whole, which means better players.

As a side note, is the EPL, La Liga, Serie A, or the Bundesliga something we want MLS to strive for? I would argue that the advent of the EPL has been a travesty for the English National Team. Sure teams like Manchester United, Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal are awash with money and world class talent. However, at the bottom half of the table you have a bunch of teams trying to stave off both relegation and receivership. And all that money that could be put into scouting and developing youth players is often being sent to other teams, often in other countries, in the form of outrageous transfer fees. Italy's National Team has been likewise been on a downward trend since the top Serie A teams have focused more on buying talent from abroad rather than developing it at home. Meanwhile, the Spanish and German National Teams rely heavily on a few teams and their academies to develop talent.

I would say at this point MLS is probably equivalent to a middle of the road European Domestic League and probably the expectation would be that it might someday equal that France or the Netherlands. I think creating an arms race among MLS teams for top talent similar to what happened with the NASL will result in the same thing happening, teams at the bottom and middle of the table folding and no new investors willing to risk jumping in to take their place. I don't think it's wise for the US to challenge the Big 4 for supremacy.

[Yachtzee]

as long as washed up "stars" consider the mls as good home they have a problem. most europeans (fans and players) give the mls no credit at all. they think that there are no real fans (bad atmosphere) and the product on the field isn´t good either... that´s not my idea but I have to say that I don´t really care about the mls and I doubt that the teams would play more than a mediocre role in the bundesliga, epl, la liga..


every year you hear some bungesliga players talk about a move to the mls. most times they are pretty old, have a good name but the production on the field is not bundesliga worthy... so they talk about ending the career oversea´s to get some money and new places to see. For example Hanke (a former german national team player who played last year for my favourite team but wasn´t good enough) thought about a move to the us, it looks at the moment like he choses china over the us though...

it could be possible that the mls popularity increases and the money (and perhaps fandom) will help to get some top players in the mls, but so far it is not as good as european league´s and it is still a long way to go

No offense, but I thing this perception stems from ignorance on the part of Europeans and has little to do with realities in the MLS. Other than a few high profile players who could probably still start on many a team in Europe. I suspect the player you mentioned probably expressed a desire to go to the MLS as a bargaining ploy but went to China because there was no real interest in his services over here. The fact of the matter is that most MLS teams have avoided signing expensive European talent in favor of younger and more affordable talent from Central and South America. For example, the Columbus Crew currently has 3 current or former members of the Costa Rican national team, including Giancarlo Gonzalez, who has gotten rave reviews in the World Cup as a stallwart CB for the Ticos. They also have Gonzalo Higuan's brother, Federico, who is quite decent himself.

In addition to getting quality young players from South and Central America, all MLS teams have academies and the league provides incentives to teams to scout and develop youth players by allowing teams to sign academy players to homegrown contracts rather than allow them to be made available for the amateur draft. Finally, teams have been working out loan arrangements with teams at lower levels to get young players more actual experience rather than ride the bench. This idea that MLS is merely a retirement league for washed up Euros is very 10 years ago.

[M2]

This idea that MLS is merely a retirement league for washed up Euros is very 10 years ago.

And it was going out of style even then. Old guys get their legs run off in MLS. Montreal tried some older Italians, got one good year out of them (though they won nothing of note) and now they're getting trounced. Toronto brought in a pile of Euro players during its first seven years of existence and never once made the playoffs. The dirty secret of MLS is it's way tougher than many realize.

[fearofpopvol1]

One thing for me is for sure, the US is lucky to have Klinsmann as the coach. I'm not all that big into moral victories either, but I really do feel like Klinsmann changed the attitude and demeanor of the team in a way I didn't see in 2010. The US is pretty lucky that his wife is from here and he enjoys living in SoCal. I really really like him.

Good article from the Times about him from yesterday...

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/03/sports/soccer/world-cup-2014-jurgen-klinsmann-and-us-soccer-have-made-slow-progress.html

[Slyder]

One thing for me is for sure, the US is lucky to have Klinsmann as the coach. I'm not all that big into moral victories either, but I really do feel like Klinsmann changed the attitude and demeanor of the team in a way I didn't see in 2010. The US is pretty lucky that his wife is from here and he enjoys living in SoCal. I really really like him.

Good article from the Times about him from yesterday...

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/03/sports/soccer/world-cup-2014-jurgen-klinsmann-and-us-soccer-have-made-slow-progress.html

I agree with this article 1000%. We finally have someone as coach who isn't just worried about the World Cup but is wanting to put the entire network together that we need to do more than just compete. I hope Jurgen Klinsmann is the US Coach for a LONG time.

[tomnuetten]

No offense, but I thing this perception stems from ignorance on the part of Europeans and has little to do with realities in the MLS. Other than a few high profile players who could probably still start on many a team in Europe. I suspect the player you mentioned probably expressed a desire to go to the MLS as a bargaining ploy but went to China because there was no real interest in his services over here. The fact of the matter is that most MLS teams have avoided signing expensive European talent in favor of younger and more affordable talent from Central and South America. For example, the Columbus Crew currently has 3 current or former members of the Costa Rican national team, including Giancarlo Gonzalez, who has gotten rave reviews in the World Cup as a stallwart CB for the Ticos. They also have Gonzalo Higuan's brother, Federico, who is quite decent himself.
In addition to getting quality young players from South and Central America, all MLS teams have academies and the league provides incentives to teams to scout and develop youth players by allowing teams to sign academy players to homegrown contracts rather than allow them to be made available for the amateur draft. Finally, teams have been working out loan arrangements with teams at lower levels to get young players more actual experience rather than ride the bench. This idea that MLS is merely a retirement league for washed up Euros is very 10 years ago.

and yet some teams still buy players like kaka and defoe

it makes sence that the us teams look for young south american players.. I like to watch the argentinian premier league, great atmosphere (sadly way to much violence..) but the league gets worse and worse... the talents go to europe or other leagues even earlier as years ago because there is no money in argentina and the scout system from european and american teams got better... But I don´t see many top players (at a "young" age) chosing the mls over european teams.

It has nothing to do with ignorance. it is like saying the european basketball leagues aren´t as good as the mlb. There are some great players who don´t want to go to the us or get enough money to stay, but 90% of players want to play in the nba because it is still the best league in the world..

The national team from england has lots of problems, but you can´t blame the pl for all of it. the problem is that they allowed big owners to buy a club. lots of them have no interest in building own talents and want to buy ready players to win titles. that doesn´t help the education of the youth. they started to change that in recent years and they do have some good players... the problem is those guys lack lots of strategy knowledge (and the three lions coach does aswell) => hard to win anything with this combination

spain and germany have pretty good leagues aswell ( I would say the top teams from those leagues are better than the top teams from england) and manage to get nice young players, and the german national team doesn´t rely on the youth acadamy from few big teams. they get educated from teams like freiburg, stuttgart, hoffenheim, hannover, schalke. hamburg and of course bayern munich + dortmund (and other teams I didn´t mention) and if they are good enough they go to bigger teams.

my favourite club is sc freiburg, a team known for the excellent youth system. they have won the under 20 championship once and 5 times the german youth tournament (dfb pokal for youth teams) in the last 8 years. some of those players play now in the first team, others play for leverkusen in the championsleague, ginter will propably go to dortmund this or next season......

so in fact, the german national team doesn´t rely on the education from bayern and dortmund alone. those teams are the place were the talents from smaller teams end up in the end.

[RedTeamGo!]

Kaka signed with Orlando City because they are a new team and they wanted a headline.

[bucksfan2]

Attracting or retaining top-flight players has little to do with things like competitive balance and more to do with how much money is in the league. MLS is already increasing attendance numbers to rival per game attendance of France and the Netherlands. Expanding into the Southeastern US and adding a team to NYC look to expand the league's appeal in major population areas underserved by MLS as currently structured and therefore look to bring in more TV revenue, which means more money in the league as a whole, which means better players.

As a side note, is the EPL, La Liga, Serie A, or the Bundesliga something we want MLS to strive for? I would argue that the advent of the EPL has been a travesty for the English National Team. Sure teams like Manchester United, Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal are awash with money and world class talent. However, at the bottom half of the table you have a bunch of teams trying to stave off both relegation and receivership. And all that money that could be put into scouting and developing youth players is often being sent to other teams, often in other countries, in the form of outrageous transfer fees. Italy's National Team has been likewise been on a downward trend since the top Serie A teams have focused more on buying talent from abroad rather than developing it at home. Meanwhile, the Spanish and German National Teams rely heavily on a few teams and their academies to develop talent.

I would say at this point MLS is probably equivalent to a middle of the road European Domestic League and probably the expectation would be that it might someday equal that France or the Netherlands. I think creating an arms race among MLS teams for top talent similar to what happened with the NASL will result in the same thing happening, teams at the bottom and middle of the table folding and no new investors willing to risk jumping in to take their place. I don't think it's wise for the US to challenge the Big 4 for supremacy.

I think it boils down to $$$$. There is no doubt that the MLS has succeeded in this country. People will probably tell you it has succeeded far more than they ever expected it to do when they started the league. The big haul was getting Beckham to play in the league to bring about some coolness and some relevancy to the league, even though Beckham's skills had deteriorated. I head the MLS commishioner on the radio this morning and said that the MLS ranks 7th in leagues in the world, not bad, not great, but probably about right.

There are a couple of reasons that I see the MLS continuing to fall behind the 2nd tier European leagues. First and foremost is money. Soccer is king in those countries, the media contracts are much larger, they aren't competing with other sports for the entertainment dollar. Second is the presence of large clubs owned by people with money to throw around. In France you have PSG, who not only can attract stars but can pay them top dollar. Even in countries like The Netherlands you have Ajax, Greece you have Olympiacos, and Turkey Galatasaray. Finally the Champions League is a huge chip that 2nd tier European leagues can throw out. At one time Galatasaray had Sneijder and Drogba playing in their prime at the same time. You can attract those stars and pay those stars because you can make big money just by qualifying for the Champions League and even more if you advance.

[IslandRed]

Second is the presence of large clubs owned by people with money to throw around. In France you have PSG, who not only can attract stars but can pay them top dollar. Even in countries like The Netherlands you have Ajax, Greece you have Olympiacos, and Turkey Galatasaray. Finally the Champions League is a huge chip that 2nd tier European leagues can throw out. At one time Galatasaray had Sneijder and Drogba playing in their prime at the same time. You can attract those stars and pay those stars because you can make big money just by qualifying for the Champions League and even more if you advance.

Besides the perennial powerhouses you mentioned, how are the rest of the clubs in those second-tier leagues doing?

That's the fundamental issue, really. As fans from afar, we might be most interested in the superclubs, but the people who run the leagues are supposed to care about all the clubs, and a domestic league doesn't necessarily benefit from being a mere tuneup slate for someone's Champions League run.

To use a baseball analogy, the 1950s are remembered as a Golden Age of sorts. But look closer, and it was a Golden Age primarily for those who lived in New York. And it was a terrible decade if you owned an American League club that wasn't the Yankees.

[Dwarftree]

As a European who really does not follow the MLS, it is really interesting to see how you guys discuss football ... scuuuuse me ... soccer and the impact the current WC might (hopefully will) have on the sport in the US.

[improbus]

MLS' biggest problem is television. Their ratings absolutely stink and their deals are terrible (see: Crew, Columbus). Attendance is nice, but they won't get anywhere if they don't make some headway with television.

As for the aging foreign players, I'm totally cool with it. Until MLS starts making/throwing around real money, they won't get the young, big name players. BUT, young American players benefit from playing with/against that kind of talent. We have to think in terms of long term growth and the more that young American players see world class skill, the better. Even if it is aging skill.

It is funny, after every world cup we take the temperature of American soccer and say the same things. But, the trajectory is slowly ticking up and that is fine.

[Yachtzee]

and yet some teams still buy players like kaka and defoe

it makes sence that the us teams look for young south american players.. I like to watch the argentinian premier league, great atmosphere (sadly way to much violence..) but the league gets worse and worse... the talents go to europe or other leagues even earlier as years ago because there is no money in argentina and the scout system from european and american teams got better... But I don´t see many top players (at a "young" age) chosing the mls over european teams.

It has nothing to do with ignorance. it is like saying the european basketball leagues aren´t as good as the mlb. There are some great players who don´t want to go to the us or get enough money to stay, but 90% of players want to play in the nba because it is still the best league in the world..

The national team from england has lots of problems, but you can´t blame the pl for all of it. the problem is that they allowed big owners to buy a club. lots of them have no interest in building own talents and want to buy ready players to win titles. that doesn´t help the education of the youth. they started to change that in recent years and they do have some good players... the problem is those guys lack lots of strategy knowledge (and the three lions coach does aswell) => hard to win anything with this combination

spain and germany have pretty good leagues aswell ( I would say the top teams from those leagues are better than the top teams from england) and manage to get nice young players, and the german national team doesn´t rely on the youth acadamy from few big teams. they get educated from teams like freiburg, stuttgart, hoffenheim, hannover, schalke. hamburg and of course bayern munich + dortmund (and other teams I didn´t mention) and if they are good enough they go to bigger teams.

my favourite club is sc freiburg, a team known for the excellent youth system. they have won the under 20 championship once and 5 times the german youth tournament (dfb pokal for youth teams) in the last 8 years. some of those players play now in the first team, others play for leverkusen in the championsleague, ginter will propably go to dortmund this or next season......

so in fact, the german national team doesn´t rely on the education from bayern and dortmund alone. those teams are the place were the talents from smaller teams end up in the end.

Players like Kaka and Defoe are the exception rather than the rule. Kaka signed with Orlando City because the owners have a special relationship with him. Toronto FC isn't exactly the franchise known for wise personnel decisions. In fact, I would say that the poor performance of Toronto and now Montreal is related to the fact that they have a tendency of overpaying European talent to cater to their fanbases that have had their eyes on the European leagues. But just one European signs here or there, doesn't make it a retirement league. And even at that it's usually Europeans that are huge names internationally. There really isn't a payoff for an MLS team to sign an expensive European unless they already have name recognition over here. The MLS teams that have had more success in the last 5-10 years are the ones that have done the better at signing and developing US talent and supplementing it with key signings from Central and South America. The one exception has been LA Galaxy, who signed David Beckham and Robbie Keane, but they've also spent money developing and retaining their own talent. I never said the MLS was on the level of the EPL, La Liga, the Bundesliga, or Serie A. I was just countering your misperception that the MLS is some sort of retirement league for washed up Europeans.

The fact is that MLS is at the point now where it's attracting many of the better players from Central and South America that aren't in the Big 4 European leagues, and is in fact starting to pull in players who would have previously gone to the Scandinavian countries to play. We also now have a lot of better American players choosing to stay in the MLS, whereas 10 years ago they would have signed on to play in the Scottish Premier League or Belgium or Denmark or some English team in the Championship just to get foreign experience. Ideally, yes, if US players get the opportunity to play in the EPL, La Liga, Serie A or the Bundesliga, they should jump on it and play with the best (as long as they're actually playing and not buried on the bench). However, I think things have gotten to the point where US players in the MLS are actually getting better experience than those who are slogging it out with teams in Scotland or Scandinavia. I think in the long run, the MLS will likely find its level on par with France or the Netherlands, leagues that have an entertaining level of play and attract good international talent, but where the best players still get sold to the Big 4 leagues. And as the TV money and endorsement opportunities grow, so to will interest from players who would normally go to Olympiakos or Galatasaray or Ajax. Why? because the US has 300 million people. The market for soccer in the New York Metropolitan Area alone is larger than the entire population of countries like the Netherlands or Belgium. MLS attendance in 2013 was 6+ million, better than the Eredivisie in the Netherlands and the Brazilian first division, neither of which reached 6 million. And MLS attendance is growing, which means catching France's Ligue 1, Argentina's and Mexico's first divisions, or even Serie A at 8+ million isn't out of the question in the next 10 years.

Okay, yes, the Germans aren't reliant on a few teams' academies. I was mistaken. But Spain certainly is. Their national team is primarily made up of players from Barca and Real Madrid, although Real sells a lot of their players and uses the money to buy foreign talent rather than giving their academy players slots on the first team. Meanwhile, England has gone so crazy on foreign talent and overpaying on transfer fees that some teams have decided to close up their academies altogether and subsist on buying players from lower division teams rather than scout or develop youth players at all. And by and large those teams playing in England below the EPL aren't playing brilliant tactical soccer. In fact many of them are playing old-school English-style soccer with "hard men" blowing up anyone even thinking about making a run on goal. If people think Greece's style of play was unattractive, I can only imagine what they'd think of watching some mid-table matches in the English Football Championship.

[M2]

and yet some teams still buy players like kaka and defoe

Defoe was still a quality scorer for an upper mid-table EPL squad. Kaka was still the main player in Milan's midfield. They're both 32, but I would argue there's gas left in those tanks. They strike me as a case of players who have two or three good years left in them in any league and MLS clubs happened to pick them up.


spain and germany have pretty good leagues aswell ( I would say the top teams from those leagues are better than the top teams from england) and manage to get nice young players, and the german national team doesn´t rely on the youth acadamy from few big teams.

Spain and Germany's mid-tier teams and bottom-of-the-table teams are better too. Spain dominates the Europa League (and the UEFA Cup before it).

As for the second part, Spain is not a duopoly in terms of development. Its recent golden generation was Barca-heavy, but Ramos (Sevilla), Villa (Gijon), Torres (Atletico) and Silva (Valencia) all came from outside the Big Two. If you look at Spain's 2013 European U-21 champs, who dominated all comers, what you get is:

Barca - 5
Real Madrid - 4
Atletico - 4
Real Sociedad - 2
Santander - 2
Valencia, Espanyol, Bilbao, Sevilla, Villareal, Celta - 1 each

That's a pretty healthy mix. In fact, it's a little low for Bilbao, Valencia and Sevilla, which crank out quality players on a fairly steady basis.

[Yachtzee]

As a European who really does not follow the MLS, it is really interesting to see how you guys discuss football ... scuuuuse me ... soccer and the impact the current WC might (hopefully will) have on the sport in the US.

The US has a very complicated relationship with soccer (Fussball). Where else can you have hundreds of thousands of people gathering together in various US cities draped in red, white, and blue, chanting "U-S-A, U-S-A," yet still have old fart sports commentators and political pundits trot out old arguments that "soccer" is "boring" or "Unamerican"? American fans of the sport have to deal with naysayers at home who not only point out the failures of the original NASL of the 1970s, but also seem to actively hate on soccer because 1) it's popular in other countries and 2) we don't have a history of kicking everyone's butt at it. Meanwhile, we have to deal with hate coming from those Europeans who dismiss MLS as a retirement league and worse, American "Eurosnobs" who only watch EPL or La Liga and trash MLS because it has salary caps and doesn't have promotion/relegation. Being a fan of American soccer, and by that I mean USMNT and MLS, often means having to justify yourself to people who feel it's their duty to tell you how much your league stinks. Really, I'd rather just enjoy watching my teams play and talk about them without people telling me how bad they are just because they saw a few MLS games 10 years ago. But really, if you get over the stigma that MLS has, you can see some pretty exciting soccer, even if it isn't to the level of a Manchester United v. Chelsea match.

[M2]

It is funny, after every world cup we take the temperature of American soccer and say the same things. But, the trajectory is slowly ticking up and that is fine.

That's really the main point. It's been headed uphill seemingly since 2006 (it kind of stalled between 1994 and 2006). What happened in 2006? Nothing in particular. The World Cup ran at better airing times than in 2002 and it was a fairly enjoyable tournament, though the U.S. team sputtered. Fox Soccer went 100% soccer all the time and got picked up by a lot more cable providers. Barca's new dream team won the Champions League over Arsenal, which kind of kicked off UCL fever here in the states. That game really was a bit like the Ramones touring England for the first time. It left a lot of soccer fans in its wake. Also, in January 2007 it was announced David Beckham was coming to play for the Galaxy, which was a pure marketing ploy that worked like a charm.

Soon after that MLS began to expand. Once Toronto (2007) and Seattle (2009) arrived, we had this notion of MLS 2.0: urban and/or soccer-specific stadiums, fans really getting active during the games, more international players and a more progressive style of play. I think the advent of social media also played a big role. Suddenly soccer fans weren't on their own in the wilderness. Turned out there were more than we realized.

Anyway, the trajectory is good and there's little reason to think it won't continue on its current course. We now can watch all the top Euro competitions, we've gotten smarter in terms of how to teach the game to kids and our national team and league are building in the right direction. It may never take over the nation, but soccer is here to stay and sportscasters/writers now have to cover it no matter how much they'd like to bury it. That last bit may be the coolest part. Soccer's stormed the gates and roughed up the gatekeepers.

[MWM]

The MLS just signed a new 8 year TV deals that took them to $90M a year from $24M. That's a dar cry from the $8 billion for the NFL, but that's a near 4X increase. They're definitely headed in the right direction.

[bucksfan2]

That's really the main point. It's been headed uphill seemingly since 2006 (it kind of stalled between 1994 and 2006). What happened in 2006? Nothing in particular. The World Cup ran at better airing times than in 2002 and it was a fairly enjoyable tournament, though the U.S. team sputtered. Fox Soccer went 100% soccer all the time and got picked up by a lot more cable providers. Barca's new dream team won the Champions League over Arsenal, which kind of kicked off UCL fever here in the states. That game really was a bit like the Ramones touring England for the first time. It left a lot of soccer fans in its wake. Also, in January 2007 it was announced David Beckham was coming to play for the Galaxy, which was a pure marketing ploy that worked like a charm.

Soon after that MLS began to expand. Once Toronto (2007) and Seattle (2009) arrived, we had this notion of MLS 2.0: urban and/or soccer-specific stadiums, fans really getting active during the games, more international players and a more progressive style of play. I think the advent of social media also played a big role. Suddenly soccer fans weren't on their own in the wilderness. Turned out there were more than we realized.

Anyway, the trajectory is good and there's little reason to think it won't continue on its current course. We now can watch all the top Euro competitions, we've gotten smarter in terms of how to teach the game to kids and our national team and league are building in the right direction. It may never take over the nation, but soccer is here to stay and sportscasters/writers now have to cover it no matter how much they'd like to bury it. That last bit may be the coolest part. Soccer's stormed the gates and roughed up the gatekeepers.

This was a big World Cup for the USMNT, probably one of the biggest in recent history. You didn't have to stay up until all hours of the night to catch a game and didn't have to wake up at 4 to watch a game. They were in the so called group of death and had this successful, energetic, yet controversial coach on the sidelines. A great player in his own day but now a guy who lived in LA and loves it. Starting the World Cup off he cut Donavon from the team, the one US player who had mass appeal because he had been the biggest name in US soccer since Freddie Adu flamed out a decade ago.

It all started of well in the first game, a game in which everyone in the Eastern Timezone was home from work and able to watch. A game in which you cherish scoring opportunities saw the US jump to the lead 30 seconds into the game. Couple that with some nail biting minutes and a late clinching goal you had many people who were casually watching hooked. I think the way they played endeared them to a lot of Americans. Dempsey with a broke nose played without protection, Jones was beaten battered and bruised, and played with a broken nose as well. Oh and you had Howard providing one of the greatest goal keeping games in World Cup history. They captured the attention of the sports fan, they captured the attention of the sports fan who couldn't have cared less about soccer. If they wouldn't have gotten out of the group stage you would have heard more of "they went' 1-1-1 why are you happy".

Can the MLS capitalize on some of the excitement, sure, its an uphill battle but they should be able to convert new fans. I think the USMNT will only go up and will be even more competitive over the next cycle.

[Hoosier Red]

The US has a very complicated relationship with soccer (Fussball). Where else can you have hundreds of thousands of people gathering together in various US cities draped in red, white, and blue, chanting "U-S-A, U-S-A," yet still have old fart sports commentators and political pundits trot out old arguments that "soccer" is "boring" or "Unamerican"? American fans of the sport have to deal with naysayers at home who not only point out the failures of the original NASL of the 1970s, but also seem to actively hate on soccer because 1) it's popular in other countries and 2) we don't have a history of kicking everyone's butt at it. Meanwhile, we have to deal with hate coming from those Europeans who dismiss MLS as a retirement league and worse, American "Eurosnobs" who only watch EPL or La Liga and trash MLS because it has salary caps and doesn't have promotion/relegation. Being a fan of American soccer, and by that I mean USMNT and MLS, often means having to justify yourself to people who feel it's their duty to tell you how much your league stinks. Really, I'd rather just enjoy watching my teams play and talk about them without people telling me how bad they are just because they saw a few MLS games 10 years ago. But really, if you get over the stigma that MLS has, you can see some pretty exciting soccer, even if it isn't to the level of a Manchester United v. Chelsea match.

One thing I'm curious about is how much the Euro snobs will hold back the market. Living in Indianapolis, I'm afraid to compare it to the Indy Car/CART split that divided the fanbase and almost killed Open Wheel Racing in America.

One crucial difference is that the "European" version of soccer will always exist and will not need to cater to Americans whereas CART never really took off overseas either because it was inferior to F1.

[M2]

One thing I'm curious about is how much the Euro snobs will hold back the market.

I actually think Eurosnobs are the most American of soccer fans. Our conceit in every other team sport is the best in the world play here. That's encoded into the American sports fan DNA. So it's fairly natural for American soccer fans to gravitate toward what they think are the best teams/players in the world. We do that. I've met a pile of people from St. Louis who are Chicago Bulls fans because St. Louis doesn't have an NBA franchise and there was that Jordan dynasty. In every other sport, St. Louis fans despise Chicago teams. To foreign football fans, that seems completely alien, but the reality is American sports fans are fairly polygamous. We're like sports bonobos.

So you get a whole pile of U.S.-based fans of EPL teams, who insist that's the best league in the world ... which is demonstrably wrong, but that's why they follow it. They want to watch the best. They want to get behind a team that's gunning to be #1. Our national league feels like Minor League Soccer in comparison. My take is you've got to let Americans be Americans. When people get into the sport, a large number of them are going to be Eurosnobs. Over time the virtues of seeing the game live and of rooting for you local side will creep up on them ... and MLS will be there waiting.

Every Eurosnob is a soccer fan. If MLS makes sure it's putting a quality product on the field, Eurosnobs will self-convert.

[SunDeck]

Fascinating discussion. I've not followed any soccer mainly because it's always been just too difficult as a total cord cutter. But I find I can watch MLS for something like $64. Frankly I'd rather watch Bundesliga because I'd have more to email back and forth about with relatives, but I'd probably be happy watching MLS. So a question though, if I wanted to follow (I mean watch games) a league and I don't do cable or feel like having to go to a bar to watch, are there streaming options for the European leagues?

[M2]

Fascinating discussion. I've not followed any soccer mainly because it's always been just too difficult as a total cord cutter. But I find I can watch MLS for something like $64. Frankly I'd rather watch Bundesliga because I'd have more to email back and forth about with relatives, but I'd probably be happy watching MLS. So a question though, if I wanted to follow (I mean watch games) a league and I don't do cable or feel like having to go to a bar to watch, are there streaming options for the European leagues?

There's places like www.rojadirecta.me that put up links to pirate feeds. They frequently crash, but that's how I watched Spanish league games before my cable provider added beIn Sports. There's various phone apps that stream games too. If you've got something like a Chromecast device you can throw video from your phone/laptop up onto your TV screen.

[SunDeck]

I might just throw in the $$ to watch MLS.
If it helps build a better USMNT. :)

[tomnuetten]

I was just countering your misperception that the MLS is some sort of retirement league for washed up Europeans.

I said that most guys I know (from europe) feel this way, not that it is that way. And those signings of "old" stars do increase the feeling. of course there is a marketing strategy behind a kaka signing but european soccer fans don´t like marketing ideas mixed together with soccer.. they don´t like business people own a team, they don´t like vip seats, they don´t like cheerleaders or mascots. they just want to see football, have a beer, sing loud and want to stand. so lots of the fans see the nba, nhl, nfl and know that it is a different system, a system they don´t want to see...



Okay, yes, the Germans aren't reliant on a few teams' academies. I was mistaken. But Spain certainly is. Their national team is primarily made up of players from Barca and Real Madrid, although Real sells a lot of their players and uses the money to buy foreign talent rather than giving their academy players slots on the first team. Meanwhile, England has gone so crazy on foreign talent and overpaying on transfer fees that some teams have decided to close up their academies altogether and subsist on buying players from lower division teams rather than scout or develop youth players at all. And by and large those teams playing in England below the EPL aren't playing brilliant tactical soccer. In fact many of them are playing old-school English-style soccer with "hard men" blowing up anyone even thinking about making a run on goal. If people think Greece's style of play was unattractive, I can only imagine what they'd think of watching some mid-table matches in the English Football Championship.

yes most players from spain are playing in barcelona or real madrid, but that doesn´t say that those two teams "educated" them. bilbao has a great youth system, sevilla, atletico madrid, deportivo was pretty good in the past... barca and real buy the players at a very young age (in fact barcelona got problems because of it). but those 14 year old players are already formed a bit. the spain team isn´t real and barca acadamy only either...

[improbus]

I actually think Eurosnobs are the most American of soccer fans. Our conceit in every other team sport is the best in the world play here. That's encoded into the American sports fan DNA. So it's fairly natural for American soccer fans to gravitate toward what they think are the best teams/players in the world. We do that. I've met a pile of people from St. Louis who are Chicago Bulls fans because St. Louis doesn't have an NBA franchise and there was that Jordan dynasty. In every other sport, St. Louis fans despise Chicago teams. To foreign football fans, that seems completely alien, but the reality is American sports fans are fairly polygamous. We're like sports bonobos.

So you get a whole pile of U.S.-based fans of EPL teams, who insist that's the best league in the world ... which is demonstrably wrong, but that's why they follow it. They want to watch the best. They want to get behind a team that's gunning to be #1. Our national league feels like Minor League Soccer in comparison. My take is you've got to let Americans be Americans. When people get into the sport, a large number of them are going to be Eurosnobs. Over time the virtues of seeing the game live and of rooting for you local side will creep up on them ... and MLS will be there waiting.

Every Eurosnob is a soccer fan. If MLS makes sure it's putting a quality product on the field, Eurosnobs will self-convert.
It isn't just Americans. Asians and Africans love the EPL too because it is broadcast to them and because some of their best players play in England. My probably future brother in law is from Ghana and loves Chelsea because of Michael Essien. I follow the Americans abroad more than any individual team and so I've watched a bunch of Fulham/Everton over the years. I also think the EPL has the same benefit that the NFL does as far as garnering an audience. It plays its games on the same days and at the same times every week (for the most part). I couldn't tell you the MLS schedule. It is all over the place. TV accessibility is huge in gaining a larger and larger market share and MLS has really missed the ball on this one.

[Yachtzee]

I also think the EPL has the same benefit that the NFL does as far as garnering an audience. It plays its games on the same days and at the same times every week (for the most part). I couldn't tell you the MLS schedule. It is all over the place. TV accessibility is huge in gaining a larger and larger market share and MLS has really missed the ball on this one.

That's supposed to change with the new TV contract. ESPN and Fox Sports 1 are supposed to have a regular MLS Sunday Night Doubleheader with an early game on ESPN followed by a later game on Fox Sports 1. In addition, Univision will have a regular Friday night game available in Spanish and English if your TV is equipped with SAP.

[hebroncougar]

That's supposed to change with the new TV contract. ESPN and Fox Sports 1 are supposed to have a regular MLS Sunday Night Doubleheader with an early game on ESPN followed by a later game on Fox Sports 1. In addition, Univision will have a regular Friday night game available in Spanish and English if your TV is equipped with SAP.

I'd hope so. I'm an EPL guy. I tried to get into the Columbus Crew a few years ago. I live 2 hours south of them and can't even watch them on TV. Liverpool is 3,800 miles from me and I can watch every single one of their matches. It's not me being snobby. It's simple availability.

[reds1869]

I'd hope so. I'm an EPL guy. I tried to get into the Columbus Crew a few years ago. I live 2 hours south of them and can't even watch them on TV. Liverpool is 3,800 miles from me and I can watch every single one of their matches. It's not me being snobby. It's simple availability.

I agree. The local tv deals for MLS clubs are terrible. I can watch virtually every key La Liga and Serie A match on beIn (I have the Spanish package) and literally every EPL match. I know to tune to Gol on the weekend to watch Bayern. Heck I can watch most matches from Peru for goodness sake. But if I want to watch my MLS club I have to cross my fingers.

[Yachtzee]

I'd hope so. I'm an EPL guy. I tried to get into the Columbus Crew a few years ago. I live 2 hours south of them and can't even watch them on TV. Liverpool is 3,800 miles from me and I can watch every single one of their matches. It's not me being snobby. It's simple availability.

That stinks. Unfortunately, there just aren't that many options for the Crew when it comes to local broadcasts. For a while they were on Ohio News Network where the picture quality was terrible. Then it was FSN Ohio, which after they took over Sportstime Ohio made the Crew fifth on the totem pole behind the Reds, Indians, Cavs, and Blue Jackets in the Columbus market. Now it's Time Warner Sportsnet, which you can't get if you are a non-TWC customer. But supposedly, the owner is working on some kind of deal to make games more accessible after firing the guy who negotiated and signed the TWC deal. They are also looking to rebrand next season and possibly sign a DP striker.

[Yachtzee]

Is anyone else done with the Landon Donovan talk? Seems like the latest trend is to claim the US would have beaten Belgium if LD had been on the team.

[hebroncougar]

Is anyone else done with the Landon Donovan talk? Seems like the latest trend is to claim the US would have beaten Belgium if LD had been on the team.

He's really coming off as a whiny baby to me. When you decide to take a sabbatical in the middle of WC qualifying, then gripe when you've get left off the team, you look foolish IMO. I do notice no US player has said much of anything about him. I think that speaks volumes.

[hebroncougar]

That stinks. Unfortunately, there just aren't that many options for the Crew when it comes to local broadcasts. For a while they were on Ohio News Network where the picture quality was terrible. Then it was FSN Ohio, which after they took over Sportstime Ohio made the Crew fifth on the totem pole behind the Reds, Indians, Cavs, and Blue Jackets in the Columbus market. Now it's Time Warner Sportsnet, which you can't get if you are a non-TWC customer. But supposedly, the owner is working on some kind of deal to make games more accessible after firing the guy who negotiated and signed the TWC deal. They are also looking to rebrand next season and possibly sign a DP striker.

I guess that's why a lot of their games aren't on MLS direct kick then either. Wow that was a bad move, going TWC only.

[Chip R]

I may be over simplifying things a bit but is a reason for these bad TV deals the fact that you have to go about 50 minutes before commercials? We all know football and baseball are chock full of commercials and they have natural breaks in the game where you can put those commercials. Even hockey has the occasional commercial even though those breaks are somewhat forced. But if you put a sport on TV and expect it to get you big money from TV, the advertisers need a place to put their commercials.

[hebroncougar]

I may be over simplifying things a bit but is a reason for these bad TV deals the fact that you have to go about 50 minutes before commercials? We all know football and baseball are chock full of commercials and they have natural breaks in the game where you can put those commercials. Even hockey has the occasional commercial even though those breaks are somewhat forced. But if you put a sport on TV and expect it to get you big money from TV, the advertisers need a place to put their commercials.

Soccer can run commercials with logos up at the top/bottom of the screen, and announcers announcing portions of the game are sponsored by............so and so. Another thing is jerseys have commercials on them as well. I think it's more effective. I tune out commercials. I can't the other things.

[Chip R]

Soccer can run commercials with logos up at the top/bottom of the screen, and announcers announcing portions of the game are sponsored by............so and so. Another thing is jerseys have commercials on them as well. I think it's more effective. I tune out commercials. I can't the other things.

Yeah but all the other sports do that too.

[Yachtzee]

I may be over simplifying things a bit but is a reason for these bad TV deals the fact that you have to go about 50 minutes before commercials? We all know football and baseball are chock full of commercials and they have natural breaks in the game where you can put those commercials. Even hockey has the occasional commercial even though those breaks are somewhat forced. But if you put a sport on TV and expect it to get you big money from TV, the advertisers need a place to put their commercials.

The MLS is actually starting to do much better with its deals and the EPL doesn't have any problems. The Crew's problem is that they won the MLS championship in 2008 and every move since then has served to alienate fans. They unceremoniously dropped many of the key players from that team without warning and without so much as a testimonial game for fans to thank them. Then they did little to replace those players with quality players while other teams were making strong moves to improve. Injuries took out other key players. Management kept failing to deliver on other promises. The new owner gave people hope, but his mistake was keeping McCullers, the guy responsible for many of the missteps under the Hunts, around for negotiating the new TV contract. When the new contract further alienated fans, the owner fired McCullers.

The sad thing is, Columbus is a great market for soccer. They sold the most season tickets when the MLS was announced, which is why they were given the first franchise. They also get some of the highest ratings in the country for the USMNT games. But between management missteps and moves by the MLS to help marquee teams make major signings without doing the same for Columbus, many Crew fans have gotten fed up. I've followed them since 1996 and have had times where I just got so fed up that it wasn't worth paying attention for a while.

[hebroncougar]

Is there any other league in the world that continues to play during the a World Cup? I thought that was real goofy as well.

[Yachtzee]

Alrighty then. Back to World Cup action and Germany opens the scoring.

[westofyou]

Is there any other league in the world that continues to play during the a World Cup? I thought that was real goofy as well.

Lots, South American leagues, Irish, UEFA Champions League is playing now.

[dougdirt]

Soccer can run commercials with logos up at the top/bottom of the screen, and announcers announcing portions of the game are sponsored by............so and so. Another thing is jerseys have commercials on them as well. I think it's more effective. I tune out commercials. I can't the other things.

I can promise you that companies want actual commercials, not a little logo somewhere in the corner or on a jersey in favor of 30 seconds on pure commercial. It's like having a full page ad in SI or having a 2x2 ad on a page with 15 other ads.

[Hoosier Red]

Who's playing now? The only MLS teams I've seen playing were the ones competing in the US Open Cup which is outside of the league.

[hebroncougar]

I can promise you that companies want actual commercials, not a little logo somewhere in the corner or on a jersey in favor of 30 seconds on pure commercial. It's like having a full page ad in SI or having a 2x2 ad on a page with 15 other ads.

If nobodies tuning into the ad on SI who cares? Aon would much rather be plastered on the front of Man U's jersey than run 30 second commercials. Every jersey that sells is a walking billboard.

[tomnuetten]

looks like the first semi final is brasil vs germany...

[reds1869]

Brazil is in big trouble without Silva, especially if Neymar is out.

[hebroncougar]

Brazil is in big trouble without Silva, especially if Neymar is out.

I think Brazils stamina and depth will win out.

[5TimeWSChamps]

Fractured vertebrae for Neymar

[Yachtzee]

I can promise you that companies want actual commercials, not a little logo somewhere in the corner or on a jersey in favor of 30 seconds on pure commercial. It's like having a full page ad in SI or having a 2x2 ad on a page with 15 other ads.

Commercial breaks are mainly an American phenomenon. Many countries air shows either without or with limited interruption. That's why soccer makes extensive use of those video boards around the field.

[Tony Cloninger]

Fractured vertebrae for Neymar

Damn Suarez at it again! Oh wait never mind.

[Chip R]

Commercial breaks are mainly an American phenomenon. Many countries air shows either without or with limited interruption. That's why soccer makes extensive use of those video boards around the field.

And that's my point. I would think that advertisers advertising on U.S. TV would rather put their money into an event where they can have a few breaks in a half. Personally I don't mind that they play straight through. But you have to believe Budweiser would rather have a couple of 30 second commercials per half than a big banner on a sideline. Like you said, in Europe and other countries, commercial interruptions are the exception rather than the rule. Would it be such a bad thing if MLS had a 90 second commercial break per half? I have to think advertisers would love to have 6 more commercials per game. In the end, MLS would get more money and perhaps more desirable time slots.

[Yachtzee]

And that's my point. I would think that advertisers advertising on U.S. TV would rather put their money into an event where they can have a few breaks in a half. Personally I don't mind that they play straight through. But you have to believe Budweiser would rather have a couple of 30 second commercials per half than a big banner on a sideline. Like you said, in Europe and other countries, commercial interruptions are the exception rather than the rule. Would it be such a bad thing if MLS had a 90 second commercial break per half? I have to think advertisers would love to have 6 more commercials per game. In the end, MLS would get more money and perhaps more desirable time slots.

Would it be bad to have commercial breaks? Yes. Plenty of advertisers line up for EPL, USMNT games, and the World Cup. The last thing you want to do is tick off fans already accustomed to a certain format. Plus, any such rule change would have to go through FIFA or risk losing certification as a first division league. FIFA already give MLS a hassle for not playing according to the international calendar of fall to spring (could you imagine games in Denver in December or February? )

[dougdirt]

Commercial breaks are mainly an American phenomenon. Many countries air shows either without or with limited interruption. That's why soccer makes extensive use of those video boards around the field.

Well, we are talking about the MLS, no? It is an American league trying to make money in America on American televisions with advertising done by American companies.

Companies are going to pay a whole lot more money to reach television viewers for a live event than they are to reach 10-20,000 people at the event. Sports tv deals are going through the roof the last few years because it's one of the only things people watch live, so they sit through the commercials. Companies drool over that because they know with anything else people are just fast forwarding through them.

Soccer has a problem on it's hands with that because of how it's played. It's going to struggle to get big bucks on tv contracts because the commercials are incredibly limited.

[Dwarftree]

Soccer has a problem on it's hands with that because of how it's played.

Soccer would have a problem on it´s hands if you choose to have a commercial break once in a halftime. Sorry Doug but you just cannot do that. That´s not the way soccer is supposed to be played. If the MLS has trouble generating money sponsors need to find a more creative way to advertise their products in a soccer enviroment. Plus Yachtzee is right: A commercial break would not go through the FIFA because it would mean a significant rule change.

One way i could see that happen is a Timeout once a half for every team. Which i have been preaching for the last 10 years. But other than that? No way this will go through FIFA´s ruling board.

[Yachtzee]

Well, we are talking about the MLS, no? It is an American league trying to make money in America on American televisions with advertising done by American companies.

Companies are going to pay a whole lot more money to reach television viewers for a live event than they are to reach 10-20,000 people at the event. Sports tv deals are going through the roof the last few years because it's one of the only things people watch live, so they sit through the commercials. Companies drool over that because they know with anything else people are just fast forwarding through them.

Soccer has a problem on it's hands with that because of how it's played. It's going to struggle to get big bucks on tv contracts because the commercials are incredibly limited.

MLS and the NASL both experimented with different rules such as a countdown clock and shootouts under the assumption that Americans didn't like ties. For a time, one league allegedly had clock stoppages to allow CBS to air commercials. FIFA actually sanctioned some of these rule changes under the belief that Americans are somehow different and required the rule changes for soccer to become popular. What they found was that such rule changes alienated serious soccer fans while doing absolutely nothing to attract casual fans. MLS ditched the countdown clock and shootouts early in its history.

If you look beyond issues individual teams like the Crew have been having, MLS revenues and attendance have been growing and will likely continue to grow. As attendance and rating continue to grow, advertisers will find a way to make their money.

[westofyou]

Soccer doesn't have to adjust to fit the USA's media plans, the USA has to adjust their media plans to fit soccer.

In short let's quit thinking the USA way is the only way to do things.

[Chip R]

Soccer would have a problem on it´s hands if you choose to have a commercial break once in a halftime. Sorry Doug but you just cannot do that. That´s not the way soccer is supposed to be played. If the MLS has trouble generating money sponsors need to find a more creative way to advertise their products in a soccer enviroment. Plus Yachtzee is right: A commercial break would not go through the FIFA because it would mean a significant rule change.

I'm just talking about the MLS. If the EPL and the other leagues don't want to have commercials, they don't have to. And "that's not the way soccer is supposed to be played" is a lame argument. Football and basketball have thrived with all of their TV timeouts. I'm sure when they started having commercials after kickoffs and punts and all of that, there were people who said, "That's not the way football is supposed to be played." Are shootouts the way soccer is supposed to be played? All levels of basketball have a 3 point line and a shot clock. Is that the way basketball is supposed to be played?


One way i could see that happen is a Timeout once a half for every team. Which i have been preaching for the last 10 years. But other than that? No way this will go through FIFA´s ruling board.

What is the difference between a time out and a break for commercial? Seems like the same thing to me. Take a time out and go to commercial for 60 seconds. The advertisers would eat that up with a spoon. As for FIFA, from what I understand, you throw enough money at them and they will OK whatever you want. World Cup in Qutar? No problem, show me the money!

[Yachtzee]

Has anyone listened to the games on ESPN Radio? I've been listening to the Argentina v. Belgium game while staining my deck. Really impressed with the quality of the radio announcers. Ross Dyer and Shep Messing are good. J.P. Della Camera and Tommy Smythe have been good. It's much better than in years past when the radio guys would miss play on the field explaining basic stuff to a presumed ignorant audience.

[Dwarftree]

What is the difference between a time out and a break for commercial? Seems like the same thing to me.

IF the FIFA would opt to add a timeout per team per half you could use that as a commercial break. On the other hand IF MLS chooses to add one commercial break per half they are going to have huge trouble with that corrupt bunch from Switzerland. So technically speaking: At the end of the day for the viewer there won´t be any difference. But rule wise it would make a huge difference the MLS being the only league in the world that has a break during one half time. And i just do not see that coming. FIFA would not buy that. And tbh rightfully so.

[reds1869]

Do you know what I do during commercial breaks? I get up, grab a drink and/or use the restroom. If I'm on the couch I hit the mute button. If I'm at a bar I talk to the people next to me. I'm guessing a lot of folks are the same way. Yet during the game I stare at the logo next to the scoreboard, the logos on the sideboards and the projected 3D logos on the touchlines; I have no choice while I'm watching the game. Soccer is a bonanza of inescapable ads if the companies want to buy them.

[puca]

Futbol is the only sport that I actually watch live. Everything else I either DVR and watch delayed to skip over commercials or have it on in the background while my main focus is somewhere else.

[puca]

Soccer doesn't have to adjust to fit the USA's media plans, the USA has to adjust their media plans to fit soccer.

In short let's quit thinking the USA way is the only way to do things.

Amen. There is a reason it is the most popular sport in the world.

[tomnuetten]

Soccer has a problem on it's hands with that because of how it's played. It's going to struggle to get big bucks on tv contracts because the commercials are incredibly limited.

perhaps in the us, in europe it isn´t a big deal at all

[Yachtzee]

perhaps in the us, in europe it isn´t a big deal at all

I don't know that it's a problem in the US either. The sports pundits who argue for commercial breaks are also the ones who seem to dislike soccer anyway and can be counted on to complain about the sport during the World Cup and declare that it will never be popular in the US. Keith Olbermann and Frank Deford are the two most common offenders in this regard. At some point you just ignore them and move on.

[Hoosier Red]

Anyone who thinks that ties are what gets in the way of US fans accepting soccer should look at Hockey. Has that game measurably improved ratings and/or popularity since the fastest game on ice added the shootouts at the end of the games.

[Tony Cloninger]

I really want Holland to win so they can defeat Argentina. Costa Rica is getting beyond stupid luck, but results are what count.

[Yachtzee]

Anyone who thinks that ties are what gets in the way of US fans accepting soccer should look at Hockey. Has that game measurably improved ratings and/or popularity since the fastest game on ice added the shootouts at the end of the games.

Been there, done that. Widely unpopular.

They can always do the classic English move and replay the entire game.

[Caveat Emperor]

There are many "next level" solutions that soccer can employ for advertising -- live-reads, animated screen bugs, graphical overlays on the pitch, sponsored signage, etc. I also heard that FOX (at least internally) discussed doing split screen cutaways for 15 second spots during some injuries when the medical teams came onto the field.

The reality is that if enough eyeballs are on the screen, TV nets will find a way to monetize a broadcast.

As far as MLS goes, you'd probably consider me a "Eurosnob" fan. I don't follow MLS closely outside of a match here or there when I see it's on as I flip around the TV. If there was a team in Cincinnati to follow, I'd probably feel differently. But, there isn't (and, thanks to the lack of a PRO/REL system, likely will never be one) -- and if I'm going to follow some other city's team, why not follow one in a better league?

[SunDeck]

I loved watching Krull make those saves. In PKs I always root for the keeper, his job is so nearly impossible, how can anyone not be overjoyed to see him make a stop?
His gamesmanship was noteworthy; he was up on the Costa Rican's space, getting into their heads (http://www.espnfc.us/blog/world-cup-central/59/post/1935588/defending-tim-kruls-gamesmanship-in-goal-at-the-world-cup). As we watched it, neither my wife or I could remember seeing a keeper get up in someone's grill to try to rattle them. Initially, I thought he would get carded.

[Hoosier Red]

I loved watching Krull make those saves. In PKs I always root for the keeper, his job is so nearly impossible, how can anyone not be overjoyed to see him make a stop?
His gamesmanship was noteworthy; he was up on the Costa Rican's space, getting into their heads (http://www.espnfc.us/blog/world-cup-central/59/post/1935588/defending-tim-kruls-gamesmanship-in-goal-at-the-world-cup). As we watched it, neither my wife or I could remember seeing a keeper get up in someone's grill to try to rattle them. Initially, I thought he would get carded.

Really remarkable since he was only brought in for the PK's right?

[Chip R]

Really remarkable since he was only brought in for the PK's right?

Definitely an odd move but it sure paid off.

Just an odd question: Has anyone ever seen a keeper take a PK in a shootout?

[hebroncougar]

Definitely an odd move but it sure paid off.

Just an odd question: Has anyone ever seen a keeper take a PK in a shootout?

Not in a real "professional" game. When we used to do PK's here in KY when I coached HS, definitely.

[IslandRed]

I loved watching Krull make those saves. In PKs I always root for the keeper, his job is so nearly impossible, how can anyone not be overjoyed to see him make a stop?
His gamesmanship was noteworthy; he was up on the Costa Rican's space, getting into their heads (http://www.espnfc.us/blog/world-cup-central/59/post/1935588/defending-tim-kruls-gamesmanship-in-goal-at-the-world-cup). As we watched it, neither my wife or I could remember seeing a keeper get up in someone's grill to try to rattle them. Initially, I thought he would get carded.

A friend of mine said -- keep in mind, this was after watching Robben's antics for 120 minutes -- "geez, even their backup keeper is a (expletive)." Like you said, gamesmanship. I was surprised the ref let him do it more than once, though.

[Dwarftree]

I would have given Krul a yellow right after his first antics. Just no sportsmanship whatsoever.



Just an odd question: Has anyone ever seen a keeper take a PK in a shootout?

Yes. Lots of. It is not unusual. At least in the DFB Pokal (German Cup) there have been many situations in which the keeper has taken a penalty shot. Or take for example José Luis Chilavert of Paraguay. He was one of the most feared set piece man of his club and in the national team. As a keeper he scored over 60 goals in his career. He actually scored a hattrick once. And i am not talking about friendlies here.

Or take Germanys Hans-Joerg Butt for example. He used to take almost every penalty kicks for all the Bundesliga Clubs he played for. So yes there are a lot of goalies who took penalty shots in matches that counted on a regular basis.

You might want to check this list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_goalscoring_goalkeepers

[MWM]

Arjen Robben is now officially my least favorite player in the world. He's all that's wrong with the sport.

As for TV rights in sports, advertising isn't nearly as important as it used to be. The reason why cable stations and not networks are the ones signing these big rights deals way more often these days than the networks is because they get the majority of their revenue from subscriber fees they charge cable and satellite providers. About 70% of ESPN's revenues come from sub fees. That's why they can bid so much for Monday Night football. It allows then to charge a higher fee per subscriber to the comcasts and Directvs of the world. These providers have little choice but to pay it or they risk not having ESPN and their customers will switch to someone who does. It puts the big networks at a big disadvantage because they still rely on ad revenue while the cable stations don't need to.

[RedTeamGo!]

Deandre Yedlin to AS Roma!!

[M2]

And that's my point. I would think that advertisers advertising on U.S. TV would rather put their money into an event where they can have a few breaks in a half. Personally I don't mind that they play straight through. But you have to believe Budweiser would rather have a couple of 30 second commercials per half than a big banner on a sideline. Like you said, in Europe and other countries, commercial interruptions are the exception rather than the rule. Would it be such a bad thing if MLS had a 90 second commercial break per half? I have to think advertisers would love to have 6 more commercials per game. In the end, MLS would get more money and perhaps more desirable time slots.

I suspect that would be just about the quickest way to turn MLS from a success story into the NASL 2.0. It would make MLS the XFL of the soccer-playing world. Soccer fans would regard the league as a joke. Seriously, even kids don't stop the game in the middle of a half for a snack break.

[bucksfan2]

I wonder if the time is a primary reason for EPL success in America. It could be with the other big leagues, but none of them are on my cable contract without getting the extra sports package. If you tune into an EPL game more often than not it is going to be in the morning or early afternoon. There are no 9 PM start times to accommodate the West Coast. There are no start times that run on into the middle of the night. Its a succinct 2 hour game with limited commercials. You can tune into the early game, be done by 9 or 10 AM and on your way to a productive day. I tune into an OSU night game and my daughter is probably able to watch the first hour or so of the game and I am up to midnight watching it end. There is some beauty about morning sporting events that attract me.

[M2]

I wonder if the time is a primary reason for EPL success in America. ... If you tune into an EPL game more often than not it is going to be in the morning or early afternoon. ... There is some beauty about morning sporting events that attract me.

It is nice waking up and putting on a game while you ease into your day. Though I'd say the bigger reasons are it's well-produced, the stadium atmospheres are great and there's a ton of talent out on the field.

[Hoosier Red]

I think that 2 hour window really plays a large part in its success.

What's interesting to me is that what some would call a lack of action and/or exciting plays actually is part of what makes soccer such a must see event for the entire two hours. (AND TO BE CLEAR, I DON'T BELIEVE THERE IS A LACK OF EXCITEMENT)

Unlike a college football game where essentially everything important will happen in the 4th quarter after the teams have traded at least 4 scores of 80 yards, a soccer game will likely turn on 1,2 or at most 3 scores. They could happen any time in the game. As an advertiser would you rather have rapt attention for 2 consecutive hours or very little attention for 4 hours.

Unlike a baseball game with a defined number of scoring opportunities, a soccer game will have any number of opportunities for both teams.

[Caveat Emperor]

As for TV rights in sports, advertising isn't nearly as important as it used to be. The reason why cable stations and not networks are the ones signing these big rights deals way more often these days than the networks is because they get the majority of their revenue from subscriber fees they charge cable and satellite providers. About 70% of ESPN's revenues come from sub fees. That's why they can bid so much for Monday Night football. It allows then to charge a higher fee per subscriber to the comcasts and Directvs of the world. These providers have little choice but to pay it or they risk not having ESPN and their customers will switch to someone who does. It puts the big networks at a big disadvantage because they still rely on ad revenue while the cable stations don't need to.

Don't know where you're getting that figure from, but it seems wrong. ESPN earns around $5.54 per subscriber (ESPN2 gets $0.70, the rest of the ESPN Networks -- News, Deportes, Classic, ESPNU -- each earn around .20 each). Even if you assume every cable subscriber in America gets all 6 networks (which isn't true, some people only get ESPN & ESPN2 on basic cable), that still only gets you to a total subscriber revenue of roughly $728 million if you use Neilson's 2011 numbers that indicate around 103 million cable households in North America.

Ad revenues for ESPN were $3.2 billion last year alone.

[IslandRed]

What's interesting to me is that what some would call a lack of action and/or exciting plays actually is part of what makes soccer such a must see event for the entire two hours.

...

Unlike a baseball game with a defined number of scoring opportunities, a soccer game will have any number of opportunities for both teams.

Well, in baseball every pitch is a scoring opportunity.

I suppose one could say of soccer what Joe Posnanski wrote about baseball (probably not an exact quote here but close enough): "I don't argue with people who say baseball is boring because it is. And then suddenly it isn't. That's why it's great."

[IslandRed]

Don't know where you're getting that figure from, but it seems wrong. ESPN earns around $5.54 per subscriber (ESPN2 gets $0.70, the rest of the ESPN Networks -- News, Deportes, Classic, ESPNU -- each earn around .20 each). Even if you assume every cable subscriber in America gets all 6 networks (which isn't true, some people only get ESPN & ESPN2 on basic cable), that still only gets you to a total subscriber revenue of roughly $728 million if you use Neilson's 2011 numbers that indicate around 103 million cable households in North America.

Multiply the hypothetical $728 million by 12, because those subscriber fees are per month, not per year.

[Hoosier Red]

Well, in baseball every pitch is a scoring opportunity.

I suppose one could say of soccer what Joe Posnanski wrote about baseball (probably not an exact quote here but close enough): "I don't argue with people who say baseball is boring because it is. And then suddenly it isn't. That's why it's great."


That was my Redszone signature quote for a long time. It's so brilliant. While every pitch is a scoring opportunity, there are a guaranteed number of innings that the Reds will have the opportunity to score. If the Reds are losing 1-0 in the middle of the third tonight, you'll know they have 7 more innings to score. Of course the Cubs have 6 which might change the equation, but it takes away some of the urgency to see that exact half inning.

[Caveat Emperor]

Multiply the hypothetical $728 million by 12, because those subscriber fees are per month, not per year.

...well, yeah, if you want to do MATH. ;)

[tomnuetten]

Well, in baseball every pitch is a scoring opportunity.

I suppose one could say of soccer what Joe Posnanski wrote about baseball (probably not an exact quote here but close enough): "I don't argue with people who say baseball is boring because it is. And then suddenly it isn't. That's why it's great."

I don´t think that baseball is boring (some games are but those happen in every sport) but there are differences... in soccer both teams could score anytime, in baseball you can´t score in the inning you are fielding. you have lots of small breaks during the innings and not a "big" break in halftime. after every pitch it is a small break and it takes multiple seconds until the next pitch (you have those situations in soccer aswell => standart situations, but they are less)...

I like both, but I can understand people thinking soccer is boring and I can understand german fans (I´d guess 90% think baseball is boring and I guess the number is a lot bigger). You have to love a sport to follow it (I will never understand how anyone could watch dancing or swimming but hey if someone likes it => I´m fine with it)

[paintmered]

I guess that's why a lot of their games aren't on MLS direct kick then either. Wow that was a bad move, going TWC only.

That's not the half of it. Their contract blacks out both home and away games.