8.20.14 Reds @ Cardinals

[klw]

#Reds lineup:

Hamilton 8,
Bruce 9,
Frazier 5,
Ludwick 7,
Pena 2,
Phillips 4,
Santiago 5,
Cozart 6,
Cueto RHP

vs
Lance Lynn, RHP
13-8, 2.91 ERA

Lynn has pitched six or more innings with two or fewer runs allowed in seven of his last eight outings and became the seventh NL pitcher to 13 wins in his last one. Since the start of July, Lynn has posted a 1.97 ERA.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2014_08_20_cinmlb_slnmlb_1#gid=2014_ 08_20_cinmlb_slnmlb_1&mode=probables


Worth Noting
• Jay Bruce is 9-for-19 (.474) with a double, two triples, two homers and eight RBIs in his career against Lynn. Brandon Phillips is 7-for-23 (.304) with two doubles and five RBIs against the right-hander.

• Matt Holliday and Jon Jay have both had success in their careers against Cueto. Holliday is 9-for-30 (.300) with three doubles and five RBIs. Jay is 10-for-21 (.476) with a double, three home runs and seven RBIs.
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2014_08_20_cinmlb_slnmlb_1


http://37.media.tumblr.com/e83a62c9145f132dd1e048fb7d0d09e8/tumblr_n9k1t7DgnH1ro5xweo1_400.gif

[Red Raindog]

#Reds lineup:

Hamilton 8,
Bruce 9,
Frazier 5,
Ludwick 7,
Pena 2,
Phillips 4,
Santiago 5,
Cozart 6,
Cueto RHP

vs
Lance Lynn, RHP
13-8, 2.91 ERA


http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2014_08_20_cinmlb_slnmlb_1#gid=2014_ 08_20_cinmlb_slnmlb_1&mode=probables


http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2014_08_20_cinmlb_slnmlb_1


http://37.media.tumblr.com/e83a62c9145f132dd1e048fb7d0d09e8/tumblr_n9k1t7DgnH1ro5xweo1_400.gif

Going to be a problem with no 1st Baseman! ;)

[ac084c]

Cards Lineup:
Carpenter 3B
Jay CF
Holliday LF
Adams 1B
Peralta SS
Pierzynski C
Taveras RF
Descalso 2B
Lynn RHP

[klw]

Going to be a problem with no 1st Baseman! ;)

I got it from Fay. 'nuff said. Maybe the Reds are just doing a big shift on Righties today.

[klw]

John Fay @johnfayman · 10m

Chapman is out on the field throwing. Price said the soreness is gone. #reds
John FayVerified account
‏@johnfayman

Chapman is airing it out pretty good. #reds

https://twitter.com/m_sheldon/status...104384/photo/1
‏@m_sheldon

Chapman throwing #reds pic.twitter.com/wD2gcqCJmM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvgjSQmCIAAPS3B.jpg

[Tom Servo]

Huh, so Kris Negron was only in NJ as an infant and then lived in Japan and then grew up in Fairfeld California. Cool stuff, seems like a good guy.

[Tom Servo]

Bruce says eat shift and die to St. Louis.

[Tom Servo]

Thom getting all bent out of shape for some reason.


Billy makes a CRAZY catch on a ball Bruce never saw and then doubles Jay off of first to end the threatening inning.

[Red Raindog]

I don't think Choo would have made that play

:p

[Red Raindog]

Thom getting all bent out of shape for some reason.


Billy makes a CRAZY catch on a ball Bruce never saw and then doubles Jay off of first to end the threatening inning.

even Cardinal's do the TOOtBLAN

[Kc61]

One of the best plays of the year by Billy H.

[Magdal]

Thom getting all bent out of shape for some reason.


Billy makes a CRAZY catch on a ball Bruce never saw and then doubles Jay off of first to end the threatening inning.I thought that ball was going to be off the wall at least. But no excuse for the dummy Jay.

[Mike Honcho]

very impressive catch

[ac084c]

very impressive catch

Fired a strike back into first too. Head's up play.

[Tom Servo]

1-0 Cardinals after a Holliday double

[Tom Servo]

Welp. With the bases loaded and two outs Jhonny Peralta with a base hit to right that Bruce bobbles. 3 runs score.

4-0 St. Louis.

[Red Raindog]

getting swept by the Whiny Birds is as painful as it gets for me

- - - Updated - - -


Welp. With the bases loaded and two outs Jhonny Peralta with a base hit to right that Bruce bobbles. 3 runs score.

4-0 St. Louis.

wonderful -- the cheater burns them now

[Beltway]

Nice glove Bruce...

[WVRedsFan]

Time to pack for Bristol. Just disgusted. Be back.

[757690]

wonderful -- the cheater burns them now

Getting beat by the cheater actually makes it easier to accept. If they need to cheat to win, let 'em.

[Red Raindog]

Getting beat by the cheater actually makes it easier to accept. If they need to cheat to win, let 'em.

ughhh --- I don't think I'll go down that road ----

- - - Updated - - -

can't wait to watch the bullpen ....

[Tom Servo]

Poor Johnny being left in to load up the bases with no outs and now his night is done.

RIP his ERA.

[Red Raindog]

Poor Johnny being left in to load up the bases with no outs and now his night is done.

RIP his ERA.

bullpen in -- I think we can assume all three will score

[WVRedsFan]

Back. Team must have really turned people off. Twenty-two posts tonight. Only 15 members. I guess people can only suffer so much pain.

[PepperJack]

The last thing the Reds needed tonight was for Cueto to struggle, which he did. He is certainly allowed one every now and then, it just stinks to have been tonight.

Base hits, walks, and HBP, just an overall off night really.

[LewGra]

Well, the CYA is Kershaw's to lose now. It was pretty much that way before, but I think this will seal it if these 3 runners score.

[WVRedsFan]

Poor Johnny being left in to load up the bases with no outs and now his night is done.

RIP his ERA.
For sure. Tom, was I seeing things or did the Cards notice Cueto's wildness and wait on pitches? If so, their hitters are smarter than ours.

[WVRedsFan]

Cueto ERA at 2.24 and rising.

[Tom Servo]

For sure. Tom, was I seeing things or did the Cards notice Cueto's wildness and wait on pitches? If so, their hitters are smarter than ours.
Definitely had a good approach, and it was clear from the start that Cueto wasn't getting calls on the corners he was hoping for. Just not his night and while I understand wanting to get an extra inning out of him given the way the bullpen has been, it wasn't really fair to him.

Also he hit a few batters so I imagine the wildness wasn't hard to notice. ;)

[757690]

Silver lining:

Reds can ease up on Cueto this final five weeks if he is out of the Cy Young picture.

[Big Klu]

bullpen in -- I think we can assume all three will score

Logan does a nice job. Only one run scores on a sac fly; the other two are stranded.

[WVRedsFan]

ERA finishes at 2.24. He threw 103 pitches in 5 complete. Just not "on" at all. When it rains it pours.

[Kc61]

Cueto didn't seem comfortable all night. Pitched very slowly, pacing around, seemed to be sweating quite a bit. Not sure if it's the heat or some minor hurt or whatever. Was wild high.

Nice outing by Ondrusek with the bases loaded so only one run scored.

This game has reinforced my desire, posted earlier, to get some minor league players a look with the Reds just to change things up.

[Big Klu]

Definitely had a good approach, and it was clear from the start that Cueto wasn't getting calls on the corners he was hoping for. Just not his night and while I understand wanting to get an extra inning out of him given the way the bullpen has been, it wasn't really fair to him.

Also he hit a few batters so I imagine the wildness wasn't hard to notice. ;)

I was concerned that Johnny was due for a not-so-sharp outing, but didn't want to say anything because he has been so good this year and is always our best chance.

"Help us, Obi-Wan Cuetobi. You're our only hope."

[jojo]

The Reds look deader tonight than the game thread. Down 5-0 through their half of the 7th...they could still come back to win this one but I'm starting to entertain the notion that the injuries etc have finally been too much to overcome and their season is done.

[Ironman92]

Tip my hat to Ondrusek....that was outstanding. He saved Cueto 2 runs to his ERA in my opinion

[Kc61]

Hoover in. At least it's not a tie. Watch him be lights out now.

I remember this winter when some Reds fans said what a terrible move Peralta was for the Cards. Not bad having a .799 OPS shortstop who fields his position.

[Ironman92]

JJ Hoover in.....this is where I'd pitch him the rest of the year.....down by 3+ or up by 5+

[Ironman92]

Yeah....this game won't be much longer. Severe storm near....might not last long but it'll clear the seats

[jojo]

Hoover in. At least it's not a tie. Watch him be lights out now.

I remember this winter when some Reds fans said what a terrible move Peralta was for the Cards. Not bad having a .799 OPS shortstop who fields his position.

Peralta was a brilliant move for the Cards and it was the day they did it. Reds fans said the Carpenter deal was a terrible move too. Not so much.

[Larkin Fan]

On the bright side of things, Hoover can't lose this one.

[KronoRed]

Hey...page 2...good job team :D

[Ironman92]

Heckuva gift by Lackey...wow

[757690]

Peralta was a brilliant move for the Cards and it was the day they did it. Reds fans said the Carpenter deal was a terrible move too. Not so much.

Lots of years left to see how "brilliant" these moves are. And anyone can sign a cheater to a long term deal. Most other teams have too much integrity to do so.

[757690]

On the bright side of things, Hoover can't lose this one.

I'm sure he could find a way ;)

[LewGra]

Lots of years left to see how "brilliant" these moves are. And anyone can sign a cheater to a long term deal. Most other teams have too much integrity to do so.

This is just wrong. You think the reason people didn't sign Peralta and Cruz is because of integrity? Must be nice to be that naive.

[KronoRed]

Lots of years left to see how "brilliant" these moves are. And anyone can sign a cheater to a long term deal. Most other teams have too much integrity to do so.

I'm pretty sure almost every team in baseball would have liked to have Peralta at the right price, including the Reds.

[Beltway]

Lots of years left to see how "brilliant" these moves are. And anyone can sign a cheater to a long term deal. Most other teams have too much integrity to do so.
I think your view of the situation is naive. Teams sign whatever players they think can help them win, whether they've cheated in the past or not.

[Ironman92]

Lots of years left to see how "brilliant" these moves are. And anyone can sign a cheater to a long term deal. Most other teams have too much integrity to do so.

Integrity lol

But having 3+ kids with 3+ women scattered across the US is ok to be a greatly heralded player.

[757690]

Well Walt was part of the A's and the Cardinals PED teams, so you're probably right.

I actually wouldn't have as much of a problem with signing Cruz to the deal he got, because it reflected his worth after being convicted of PED use. The contract he signed was a form of punishment for breaking the rules. Peralta was not signed at the "right" price. He got what any clean player would have gotten on the open market.

Rewarding cheaters for cheating. Then Cardinal Way.

[ac084c]

More like other teams are skeptical that those guys can repeat when clean. Integrity has very little to do with it.

[757690]

Integrity lol

But having 3+ kids with 3+ women scattered across the US is ok to be a greatly heralded player.

Integrity to the game of baseball.

- - - Updated - - -


More like other teams are skeptical that those guys can repeat when clean. Integrity has very little to do with it.

There's a lot of truth to that.

[ac084c]

Well Walt was part of the A's and the Cardinals PED teams, so you're probably right.

I actually wouldn't have as much of a problem with signing Cruz to the deal he got, because it reflected his worth after being convicted of PED use. The contract he signed was a form of punishment for breaking the rules. Peralta was not signed at the "right" price. He got what any clean player would have gotten on the open market.

Rewarding cheaters for cheating. Then Cardinal Way.

Cruz got what he got because he had a qualifying offer attached. Peralta did not.

[RedsBrick]

The Reds are bad. That is all.

[kaldaniels]

Just win baby.

[jojo]

Lots of years left to see how "brilliant" these moves are. And anyone can sign a cheater to a long term deal. Most other teams have too much integrity to do so.

And this is how one continually ends up on the wrong side of player evaluation discussions.....being dogmatic and unwilling to learn.

[Beltway]

Well Walt was part of the A's and the Cardinals PED teams, so you're probably right.

I actually wouldn't have as much of a problem with signing Cruz to the deal he got, because it reflected his worth after being convicted of PED use. The contract he signed was a form of punishment for breaking the rules. Peralta was not signed at the "right" price. He got what any clean player would have gotten on the open market.

Rewarding cheaters for cheating. Then Cardinal Way.
Peralta was paid more than Cruz because he is a shortstop, not because Cruz was "punished". Supply and demand.

[757690]

Cruz got what he got because he had a qualifying offer attached. Peralta did not.

A little truth to that. But a draft pick isn't worth $45M.

[LewGra]

Well Walt was part of the A's and the Cardinals PED teams, so you're probably right.

I actually wouldn't have as much of a problem with signing Cruz to the deal he got, because it reflected his worth after being convicted of PED use. The contract he signed was a form of punishment for breaking the rules. Peralta was not signed at the "right" price. He got what any clean player would have gotten on the open market.

Rewarding cheaters for cheating. Then Baseball Way.

I went ahead and fixed that for you.

[757690]

Peralta was paid more than Cruz because he is a shortstop, not because Cruz was "punished". Supply and demand.

Again, not a $45M difference in supply and demand.

[LewGra]

Integrity to the game of baseball.

Name one team that has shown they care about "integrity" more than winning

[757690]

And this is how one continually ends up on the wrong side of player evaluation discussions.....being dogmatic and unwilling to learn.

lol. I thought the meme on me was that I have no convictions, and argue anything just for gits and shiggles ;)

[jojo]

Well Walt was part of the A's and the Cardinals PED teams, so you're probably right.

I actually wouldn't have as much of a problem with signing Cruz to the deal he got, because it reflected his worth after being convicted of PED use. The contract he signed was a form of punishment for breaking the rules. Peralta was not signed at the "right" price. He got what any clean player would have gotten on the open market.

Rewarding cheaters for cheating. Then Cardinal Way.

Cruz was punished for being a 34 yo midtier hitting corner outfielder with a qualifying offer but who cant play a lick of defense to save his life.

[Beltway]

Again, not a $45M difference in supply and demand.
You're really twisting the numbers in a disingenuous way. Cruz is not being paid $8 million over 4 years. He's being paid $8 million this year. He'll likely make at least $30 million more over the next 3 years after the season he's had. So that $45 million difference will drop to about $15 million.

[jojo]

lol. I thought the meme on me was that I have no convictions, and argue anything just for gits and shiggles ;)

No, that's why others might doubt your sincerity not why the arguments you actually trust are less compelling.

[WVRedsFan]

Nice seeing Junior in a Reds uniform again, especially the vests. Hall of Famers for sure.

[757690]

You're really twisting the numbers in a disingenuous way. Cruz is not being $8 million over 4 years. He's being paid $8 million this year. He'll likely make at least $30 million more over the next 3 years after the season he's had. So that $45 million difference will drop to about $15 million.

But he didn't get an offer over one year, so that had to be figured in the equation. And Peralta is 32, so it's not like age was a factor.

No twisting of the numbers. One guy got offered $8M, the other $54M. If Cruz was really worth $30M, he would have been offered $30M. He wasn't. He's was considered worth $8M.

[757690]

No, that's why others might doubt your sincerity not why the arguments you actually trust are less compelling.

Okay, so I'm being insincere about being wrong? I guess that means I'm actually right about what you think I'm wrong about :mooner:

[LewGra]

But he didn't get an offer over one year, so that had to be figured in the equation. And Peralta is 32, so it's not like age was a factor.

No twisting of the numbers. One guy got offered $8M, the other $54M. If Cruz was really worth $30M, he would have been offered $30M. He wasn't. He's was considered worth $8M.

You don't think he's going to be offered more after this year? Peralta can play both sides of the ball, something Cruz can't do.

[chuck6660]

The Reds are bad. That is all.

Even Cueto is bad today, he must have sat too close to JJ.

[757690]

You don't think he's going to be offered more after this year? Peralta can play both sides of the ball, something Cruz can't do.

Cruz will get offered a nice deal this offseason. Because he's paid his price with this deal.

Peralta is a better player than Cruz, no doubt, but that doesn't explain why one got a four year deal at full market value, while the other got a 1 year deal for under market value. Choo had a qualifying offer, and got 7 years, so we know it's not the qualifying offer.

[jojo]

Again, not a $45M difference in supply and demand.

Hmmm a 34 yo corner outfielder with a qualifying offer, massive negative defensive value and a roughly .350 wOBA bat versus a shortstop who is 2 years younger, plays elite defense and has a roughly .350 wOBA bat.....

The difference in contract status must have something to do with PEDs even though both have links to PEDs.

[Roy Tucker]

Cheery place here today. Everyone is in a great mood.

[Beltway]

But he didn't get an offer over one year, so that had to be figured in the equation. And Peralta is 32, so it's not like age was a factor.

No twisting of the numbers. One guy got offered $8M, the other $54M. If Cruz was really worth $30M, he would have been offered $30M. He wasn't. He's was considered worth $8M.
Cruz got a one year deal because there is no shortage of corner outfielders. Peralta got a multi-year deal, not as some sort of reward for cheating, but because there is a shortage of good shortstops, so that's what it took to get him signed. If the Cardinals didn't make that offer, he would have signed somewhere else. All the stuff you're saying about "integrity" is nonsense.

[757690]

Hmmm a 34 yo corner outfielder with a qualifying offer, massive negative defensive value and a roughly .350 wOBA bat versus a shortstop who is 2 years younger, plays elite defense and has a roughly .350 wOBA bat.....

The difference in contract status must have something to do with PEDs even though both have links to PEDs.

Are you describing Choo or Cruz with the first example? Because Choo is very similar to Cruz, with a qualifying offer, and he got 7 years $130M.

[Beltway]

Cruz will get offered a nice deal this offseason. Because he's paid his price with this deal.

Peralta is a better player than Cruz, no doubt, but that doesn't explain why one got a four year deal at full market value, while the other got a 1 year deal for under market value. Choo had a qualifying offer, and got 7 years, so we know it's not the qualifying offer.
At "full market value"? You have no idea what "full market value" is. If Peralta hadn't been suspended for PED use, maybe he would have gotten 5/75 instead of 4/50 or whatever it was he got. No one knows.

[757690]

Cruz got a one year deal because there is no shortage of corner outfielders. Peralta got a multi-year deal, not as some sort of reward for cheating, but because there is a shortage of good shortstops, so that's what it took to get him signed. If the Cardinals didn't make that offer, he would have signed somewhere else. All the stuff you're saying about "integrity" is nonsense.

Again, for the third time, explain Choo getting $7 years, $130 with a qualifying offer, and Cruz getting one year $8M.

- - - Updated - - -


At "full market value"? You have no idea what "full market value" is. If Peralta hadn't been suspended for PED use, maybe he would have gotten 5/75 instead of 4/50 or whatever it was he got. No one knows.

Peralta projected to be a 9 WAR player over the next 4 years. That's $59M.

[Beltway]

Are you describing Choo or Cruz with the first example? Because Choo is very similar to Cruz, with a qualifying offer, and he got 7 years $130M.
Similar to Cruz? You must be nuts. Choo's OBP was 100 points higher than Cruz's last season. He's also 2 years younger. Choo was probably overpaid based on a career year, but before this season, he was a significantly better player than Cruz.

[jojo]

Cruz will get offered a nice deal this offseason. Because he's paid his price with this deal.

Peralta is a better player than Cruz, no doubt, but that doesn't explain why one got a four year deal at full market value, while the other got a 1 year deal for under market value. Choo had a qualifying offer, and got 7 years, so we know it's not the qualifying offer.

One guy hit the market averaging almost 4 WAR/yr his previous three seasons while playing a premium position. The other hit the market with a QO while averaging roughly 1.3 WAR/yr his previous three seasons while basically being an aging DH.

You're being disingenuous by equating their market values in an "integrity" narrative.

[757690]

Similar to Cruz? You must be nuts. Choo's OBP was 100 points higher than Cruz's last season. He's also 2 years younger. Choo was probably overpaid based on a career year, but before this season, he was a significantly better player than Cruz.

$122M better? Gimme a break.

[757690]

One guy hit the market averaging almost 4 WAR/yr his previous three seasons while playing a premium position. The other hit the market with a QO while averaging roughly 1.3 WAR/yr his previous three seasons while basically being an aging DH.

You're being disingenuous by equating their market values in an "integrity" narrative.

Compare what Choo, Peralta and Cruz got.

It's nearly impossible to say with a straight face that Cruz got anywhere near fair market value.

[Beltway]

$122M better? Gimme a break.
The Rangers are in last place. Do you think it's possible they made some mistakes?

[jojo]

Are you describing Choo or Cruz with the first example? Because Choo is very similar to Cruz, with a qualifying offer, and he got 7 years $130M.

Choo isn't an aging DH with midteir offensive skills and PEDs issues.

- - - Updated - - -


Compare what Choo, Peralta and Cruz got.

It's nearly impossible to say with a straight face that Cruz got anywhere near fair market value.

Cruz absolutely did.

[jojo]

Okay, so I'm being insincere about being wrong? I guess that means I'm actually right about what you think I'm wrong about :mooner:

That's not logically valid either.

[757690]

Choo isn't an aging DH with midteir offensive skills and PEDs issues.


Choo's a DH who is forced to play the field. Cruz actually is more valuable on defense than Choo these past three seasons.

- - - Updated - - -


The Rangers are in last place. Do you think it's possible they made some mistakes?

Yeah, they should have kept Cruz and not signed Choo, lol.

[KronoRed]

Cheery place here today. Everyone is in a great mood.

:duel:

[jojo]

Choo's a DH who is forced to play the field. Cruz actually is more valuable on defense than Choo these past three seasons.

Choo is a significantly better offensive player who shouldn't play CF and who could easily be a 5 WAR player next year.

Cruz is a guy who should not be allowed to play the field and who's upside is 2.5 WAR.

[BCubb2003]

When they win we talk about baseball; when they lose we talk about money.

[Tom Servo]

In other news, Carlos Contreras has become a real gas can.

[Red Raindog]

In other news, Carlos Contreras has become a real gas can.

only way we can the bullpen pyros apart is by their numbers

[Big Klu]

In other news, Carlos Contreras has become a real gas can.

And now he leaves the game with an injury.

Now we know how they will clear a spot for Holmberg.

[jojo]

The bullpen needs quarantined.

[Big Klu]

I would have brought on Schumaker to pitch, and let LeCure have the night off.

[WVRedsFan]

Time to give all the injured rest and bring up the kids. But they won't do it. As Tom said twice tonight, they're only 5 (now 6) games behind in the Wild Card race. As if......

[Tom Servo]

Cheering a former player when you are up by a mere 7 runs.

2classy4me

[BuckeyeRedleg]

In other news, Carlos Contreras has become a real gas can.

I see nothing in his game that makes me think he'll be anything more than AAAA-emergency call-up for these kinds of desperate times. He doesn't really excel in anything.

[powersackers]

Am I to believe what I just saw on Game Day? Traveling for work and just saw this travesty. Is it as shameful as it looks?

[LewGra]

Cheering a former player when you are up by a mere 7 runs.

2classy4me

You don't think we'd cheer a former Red if we were up by 7?

[757690]

I see nothing in his game that makes me think he'll be anything more than AAAA-emergency call-up for these kinds of desperate times. He doesn't really excel in anything.

He should be in AA this year. Only reason's he in the bigs is because the Reds have no other options.

[Tom Servo]

You don't think we'd cheer a former Red if we were up by 7?
That is exactly my point. It's easy to be warm and fuzzy when you are winning big, but on the surface it's "Oh those classy Cardinals".


Cardinals playing some real sloppy ball here in the 9th. 7-3 game.

[Mutaman]

I see nothing in his game that makes me think he'll be anything more than AAAA-emergency call-up for these kinds of desperate times. He doesn't really excel in anything.

Wasn't he the best we had available at one point? The main problem here might be that this organization has nothing in the minors. Seems like somebody was making some bad scouting decisions over a period of a few years.

[LewGra]

That is exactly my point. It's easy to be warm and fuzzy when you are winning big, but on the surface it's "Oh those classy Cardinals".


Cardinals playing some real sloppy ball here in the 9th. 7-3 game.

Wouldn't it be more an "Oh look at us" if they did it when they were DOWN 7-0?

[Tom Servo]

Wasn't he the best we had available at one point? The main problem here might be that this organization has nothing in the minors. Seems like somebody was making some bad scouting decisions over a period of a few years.
Yes and no. We don't have much in the way of major league ready prospects, but over the long term the Reds have a lot of minor league talent. I don't think the front office expected the Reds this season to need to dig deep into the minors.

[WVRedsFan]

Most ridiculous and embarrassing, slightly edging out the Arroyo-Welsh JTM efforts, commercial is the WeAre FSO efforts.

[WVRedsFan]

Tying run at the plate

[Tom Servo]

Todd Frazier is the tying run at the plate :rockband:

[Tom Servo]

Frazier! :jump:


...is what I would be posting if we lived in dream world. He just grounded out. Game over. Reds lose.

[WVRedsFan]

Too good to be true. 6 straight losses.

[Big Klu]

Most ridiculous and embarrassing, slightly edging out the Arroyo-Welsh JTM efforts, commercial is the WeAre FSO efforts.

I don't know...the Red Roof Inn "multi-tasking" commercial and FarmersOnly.com might beat both of them out.

[Red Raindog]

just enough in the 9th suck us fools in -- talk you tomorrow

[WVRedsFan]

I don't know...the Red Roof Inn "multi-tasking" commercial and FarmersOnly.com might beat both of them out.at least they're not Reds specific.

Joey just doesn't have that convincing voice.

[powersackers]

I've taken dumps that I'm more proud of than I am of this team. And this season is similarly and deservedly flushed down the drain.

[WVRedsFan]

Good night all. You'll be happy to hear, I'll be in the great state of Tennessee for the next three titanic struggles. Carry on and get some wins.

[villain612]

Game threads down to 8 pages now.

You all are some brave souls.

I was actually busy tonight or else I would've jumped in these trenches with you.

[PepperJack]

It's small, but that they could have just completely rolled on over, and got out of there, but they fought to delay the inevitable. If they weren't still playing for Price/each other, they likely would have.

The Cards relief/defense helped some too.

[PepperJack]

Good night all. You'll be happy to hear, I'll be in the great state of Tennessee for the next three titanic struggles. Carry on and get some wins.

Travel safe.

[Mutaman]

Yes and no. We don't have much in the way of major league ready prospects, but over the long term the Reds have a lot of minor league talent. I don't think the front office expected the Reds this season to need to dig deep into the minors.

"Dig deep"? Name one minor leaguer that has contributed this year. Diaz? Negron? A little bit. Nothing else. No first baseman they could call up. Nobody to help the beleaguered bullpen. Somebody really screwed the pooch in terms of signing talent over a period of time.

[757690]

It's small, but that they could have just completely rolled on over, and got out of there, but they fought to delay the inevitable. If they weren't still playing for Price/each other, they likely would have.

The Cards relief/defense helped some too.

The Reds did seem flat and uninspired after the All-Star break, but the last few weeks, heart has not been their problem.

[Tom Servo]

"Dig deep"? Name one minor leaguer that has contributed this year. Diaz? Negron? A little bit. Nothing else. No first baseman they could call up. Nobody to help the beleaguered bullpen. Somebody really screwed the pooch in terms of signing talent over a period of time.
Our best hitting prospect just reached AA this season, and one of our top prospects heading into this year is our everyday center fielder. Blandino should hopefully be a fast riser, Ervin seemed to be before his High-A struggles. A lot of our best pitchers are at the AA level and shouldn't be thrown to the wolves yet: Stephenson, Lively, Lorenzen, Moscot.

There's a lot of talent, it's just not major league ready.

[Mutaman]

The Reds did seem flat and uninspired after the All-Star break, but the last few weeks, heart has not been their problem.

If heart has not been their problem over the last few weeks ( 2 wins 10 losses),
we are really in trouble talent wise.

[Mutaman]

Our best hitting prospect just reached AA this season, and one of our top prospects heading into this year is our everyday center fielder. Blandino should hopefully be a fast riser, Ervin seemed to be before his High-A struggles. A lot of our best pitchers are at the AA level and shouldn't be thrown to the wolves yet: Stephenson, Lively, Lorenzen, Moscot.

There's a lot of talent, it's just not major league ready.

But that's exactly my point: Other than Billy, we haven't had any "major league ready" talent, at any position, over several years now. Its nice to think that maybe things have corrected themselves, but its pretty obvious that somebody wasn't doing their job for a few years. And neither the Latos trade or the fact that we may have a "high riser" somewhere in the organization excuses that .

[757690]

If heart has not been their problem over the last few weeks ( 2 wins 10 losses),
we are really in trouble talent wise.

Talent, basdball IQ, and fundamentals, which are all separate from heart.

[PepperJack]

But that's exactly my point: Other than Billy, we haven't had any "major league ready" talent, at any position, over several years now. Its nice to think that maybe things have corrected themselves, but its pretty obvious that somebody wasn't doing their job for a few years. And neither the Latos trade or the fact that we may have a "high riser" somewhere in the organization excuses that .


Well that's ignoring Frazier, Mesoraco, and even Cozart. While trying to write off any trades as not counting is swell too.

[757690]

But that's exactly my point: Other than Billy, we haven't had any "major league ready" talent, at any position, over several years now. Its nice to think that maybe things have corrected themselves, but its pretty obvious that somebody wasn't doing their job for a few years. And neither the Latos trade or the fact that we may have a "high riser" somewhere in the organization excuses that .

Reds had insane run of Cueto, Votto, Bruce, Bailey, Leake, Chapman, Fraizer, Mesoraco, and even Cozart. Then they started winning, dropping down in the draft. It happens to nearly every winning team.

- - - Updated - - -


Well that's ignoring Frazier, Mesoraco, and even Cozart. While trying to write off any trades as not counting is swell too.

lol We both had to add "and even Cozart." like minds...

[Mutaman]

Talent, basdball IQ, and fundamentals, which are all separate from heart.

Good. Glad to know the boys are still giving it their all. I'll sleep a lot better tonight.

[Mutaman]

Well that's ignoring Frazier, Mesoraco, and even Cozart. While trying to write off any trades as not counting is swell too.

All three of the above have now been here for at least three years. Other than Billy, the organization has not produced one major league ball player over the last three years and there doesn't appear to be anyone at the triple A level who can contribute in 2015. Zach Stewart? Yonder Alonzo? Logan Ondruzek? Donald Lutz? Somebody was signing some real stiffs for a few years.

[KronoRed]

You don't think we'd cheer a former Red if we were up by 7?

Nobody would be left to cheer :D

[757690]

You don't think we'd cheer a former Red if we were up by 7?

With this bullpen, up by 7 ain't no time to cheer for the other team.

[indyscott]

Lots of years left to see how "brilliant" these moves are. And anyone can sign a cheater to a long term deal. Most other teams have too much integrity to do so.

I am assuming you dont think the Reds will resign Leake. Or does shoplifting not fit in with organizational integrity?

[757690]

I am assuming you dont think the Reds will resign Leake. Or does shoplifting not fit in with organizational integrity?

Been addressed already in this thread. Baseball integrity. Ruining the integrity of the game of Baseball. But thanks for stopping in to again to defend the Cardinals ;)

[indyscott]

Ahh so who cares what we do off the field. Selective integrity?

[757690]

Ahh so who cares what we do off the field. Selective integrity?

Why should anyone care what anyone else does with their personal life? When they cheat at the game baseball, I hope my basebsll team cares enough about the integrity of the game not to reward them.

[LewGra]

Why should anyone care what anyone else does with their personal life? When they cheat at the game baseball, I hope my basebsll team cares enough about the integrity of the game not to reward them.

Well, our organization hired Jocketty and Baker, so no, it doesn't care enough. Any fan that says they care more about integrity of the game than winning is full of it.

[indyscott]

So you think a team has more integrity by having a rapist on your team then someone who took a diet pill?

[757690]

So you think a team has more integrity by having a rapist on your team then someone who took a diet pill?


Well, our organization hired Jocketty and Baker, so no, it doesn't care enough. Any fan that says they care more about integrity of the game than winning is full of it.

The Reds certainly aren't the poster child for PED integrity, that's for sure. I'm usually the first poster here to remind everyone about Walt and Dusty's past PED connections.

As for Simon, he hasn't had his day in court yet, so the Reds doing anything at this point, would hurt their integrity, not help it. If Simon is convicted of his charges, I would expect the Reds to severe all ties with him immediately.

As for other teams not valuing integrity over winning:

The Giants could used Melky Cabrera in the 2012 playoffs, after his suspension for PED use, but chose not to, because they felt it would have been wrong.

Many MLB teams put an "integrity" clause in player's contracts, which states that the team can suspended you if you act in a way the hurts the team's integrity or reputation. And many players, especially star players, have been suspended under this clause. Managers take star players out of the game if the player isn't acting like a team player.

Teams want to win first and foremost. But they don't want to win at all costs. They want to win the right way. At least most teams.

[RedTeamGo!]

LewGra and indyscott showed up when the Reds lost a series to the Cardinals and started defending them?

No.Way.

[indyscott]

I never said a word about Simon. I am saying in general. Do you feel it's worse to have a guy on your team who took a diet pill or raped a woman?

I guess he doesn't recognize the 75 and 76 WS champions since uppers were rampant on that team. Not have I read him ever ripping the integrity of the reds for awarding Bronson Arroyo for his steroid usage.

[indyscott]

LewGra and indyscott showed up when the Reds lost a series to the Cardinals and started defending them?

No.Way.

Ya I have been on here screaming about the cards being better and the reds suck!!!

Oh wait. I haven't.

[ac084c]

The Reds certainly aren't the poster child for PED integrity, that's for sure. I'm usually the first poster here to remind everyone about Walt and Dusty's past PED connections.

As for Simon, he hasn't had his day in court yet, so the Reds doing anything at this point, would hurt their integrity, not help it. If Simon is convicted of his charges, I would expect the Reds to severe all ties with him immediately.

As for other teams not valuing integrity over winning:

The Giants could used Melky Cabrera in the 2012 playoffs, after his suspension for PED use, but chose not to, because they felt it would have been wrong.

Many MLB teams put an "integrity" clause in player's contracts, which states that the team can suspended you if you act in a way the hurts the team's integrity or reputation. And many players, especially star players, have been suspended under this clause. Managers take star players out of the game if the player isn't acting like a team player.

Teams want to win first and foremost. But they don't want to win at all costs. They want to win the right way. At least most teams.

Not trying to pile on, but I'm going to have to ask for a source on the bolded. That's all news to me.

[757690]

I never said a word about Simon. I am saying in general. Do you feel it's worse to have a guy on your team who took a diet pill or raped a woman?

I guess he doesn't recognize the 75 and 76 WS champions since uppers were rampant on that team. Not have I read him ever ripping the integrity of the reds for awarding Bronson Arroyo for his steroid usage.

If a player was caught and convicted for using banned PED's, I wouldn't want my team to sign him to a long term deal, the very next year. If he was already on the team, I would hope the team traded him, but wouldn't stop rooting for them if they didn't. If the conviction happened years earlier, or if he only admitted to using them years earlier, but wasn't convicted, I wouldn't have much if a problem with him on my team.

If a player is found guilty by a US court of a violent crime, I wouldn't want him cut immediately, and expect that's what would happen.

As for the BRM, greenies were rampant in all MLB clubhouses back then, and they weren't specifically banned. Every team was using them like they were candy, everyone knew it, and no one cared.

[757690]

Not trying to pile on, but I'm going to have to ask for a source on the bolded. That's all news to me.

http://breedenlegal.com/2009/02/12/a-rod-and-the-morality-clause/


This got me to thinking. Maybe A-Rod didn’t defraud the Yankees, but he may very well have hurt their reputation, as well as his own. This brings me to my point (…which I’m sure Hank & Hal Steinbrenner have already thought of) if you really want terminate A-R0d, or just negotiate his salary down, the morality clause is the key. You see, in just about every professional sports contracts, and most employment agreements for that matter, there is a clause that says something along the following lines:

Athlete agrees to conduct himself with due regard to public conventions and morals, and agrees that he will not do or commit any act or thing that will tend to degrade him in society or bring him into public hatred, contempt, scorn or ridicule, or that will tend to shock, insult or offend the community or ridicule public morals or decency.

[indyscott]

And steroids were rampant in MLB clubhouses yet you aren't so forgiving? Why is that?

So you say if a reds player is convicted of rape you wouldn't want him cut? Wow. I guess your definition of integrity is far different than mine.

[ac084c]

http://breedenlegal.com/2009/02/12/a-rod-and-the-morality-clause/

Maybe I should have been clear. Can you give me a reliable source, that doesn't invoke supposition?

[757690]

And steroids were rampant in MLB clubhouses yet you aren't so forgiving? Why is that?

So you say if a reds player is convicted of rape you wouldn't want him cut? Wow. I guess your definition of integrity is far different than mine.

My bad about the rape issue. That was a typo. I meant. I would want him cut.

And I am much more forgiving about the players who used during the "steroid era," when the rules were unclear, than I am about the players who used once testing started. I'm even in favor of letting some of the former into the HOF. I'm also, in way excusing the former or the players in the 1970's who used greenies, but it's a matter of degree.

[757690]

Maybe I should have been clear. Can you give me a reliable source, that doesn't invoke supposition?

The guy who wrote that article is a well known and respected sports attorney. I don't think any one can find a more reliable source.

[ac084c]

I know some Cardinals fans who took the "moral high ground" in the wake of the Peralta signing as well. They were incensed that the Cardinals would do such a morally reprehensible thing. They were contemplating not buying season tickets and not watching the team any longer. They were poised and ready to pounce when Peralta got off to a slow start. They went so far as to say that they'd rather have Pete Kozma back in the starting role than a "convicted juicer".

You know what they're saying now - now that he's the fWAR leader on the team for position players, that he's having the best 2-way season among NL shortstops, that he's leading the team in home runs and just broke the single-season mark for a Cardinal SS?

Nothing.

And you wouldn't be either if the Reds did the same.

[ac084c]

My bad about the rape issue. That was a typo. I meant. I would want him cut.

And I am much more forgiving about the players who used during the "steroid era," when the rules were unclear, than I am about the players who used once testing started. I'm even in favor of letting some of the former into the HOF. I'm also, in way excusing the former or the players in the 1970's who used greenies, but it's a matter of degree.

I'm going to have to call BS on this - after as much as I've seen you denegrate Mark McGwire and Tony LaRussa. It seems you're setting your arbitrary "integrity endpoints" where it's convenient for you - namely, all those that exclude the St. Louis Cardinals.

That's your prerogative, but just call it what it is and stop trying to dance around it.

[indyscott]

So you feel that baseball players thought it would be ok to use something illegal?

[LewGra]

LewGra and indyscott showed up when the Reds lost a series to the Cardinals and started defending them?

No.Way.

So sad that the younger generations don't know how to read these days.

[757690]

I'm going to have to call BS on this - after as much as I've seen you denegrate Mark McGwire and Tony LaRussa. It seems you're setting your arbitrary "integrity endpoints" where it's convenient for you - namely, all those that exclude the St. Louis Cardinals.

That's your prerogative, but just call it what it is and stop trying to dance around it.

I'm not dancing around anything. I've been very critical of all PED users, even Reds. I'm just more critical of some than others, for very logical reasons.

I'm not dogmatic on this issue, there is nuance needed, just like for every issue. Not all PED's are equal, and not all circumstances are equal. Many PED apologists try to use a broad brush when criticizing PED opponents like myself. They come with examples just like the ones brought up in this thread:

If you're critical of player X, why aren't you critical of player Y? I think it's simple minded to assume that using anabolic steroids or HGH is the same as using greenies, or Andro. And taking them when there's no list of banned substances, or when there's no testing, is different than taking them when there is.

To be clear, all PED use is wrong and needs to stop. But we need to deal with each case on an individual basis, and not use a broad brush when dealing with them.

[ac084c]

To be clear, all PED use is wrong and needs to stop. But we need to deal with each case on an individual basis, and not use a broad brush when dealing with them.

Yes, and your position puts arbitrary, moving goalposts on the your individual assessment of each case - which in my observation, are most notably tied to team affiliation.

[757690]

Yes, and your position puts arbitrary, moving goalposts on the your individual assessment of each case - which in my observation, are most notably tied to team affiliation.

Nothing arbitrary or moveable about my positions. Please cite examples, so I can understand your criticism. Thanks.

[ac084c]

And I am much more forgiving about the players who used during the "steroid era," when the rules were unclear, than I am about the players who used once testing started. I'm even in favor of letting some of the former into the HOF. I'm also, in way excusing the former or the players in the 1970's who used greenies, but it's a matter of degree.

This entire statement is pretty arbitrary. Especially given that Tony LaRussa and Mark McGwire fit the bill, but they are two players who you've been vocally unforgiving of, and not in favor of letting them into the HoF.

That is the moving goalpost - based solely on their team affiliation.

[757690]

This entire statement is pretty arbitrary. Especially given that Tony LaRussa and Mark McGwire fit the bill, but they are two players who you've been vocally unforgiving of, and not in favor of letting them into the HoF.

That is the moving goalpost - based solely on their team affiliation.

I've been on record that if McGwire had put up HOF numbers while clean, like Bond and Clemens, I would forgive him for using later in his career. But most of his numbers came while using, so he doesn't get in. That's the forgiveness that I give players from that era.

Had McGwire played in the Reds at any point in his career, I would have been less upset with that (still upset, but less upset) than I would if the Reds signed him immediately after he had been convicted of PED use.

I actually was a LaRussa fan for quite awhile. I was very upset when the Cards got him because I wanted the Reds to get him. But that changed when he started denying any involvement or awareness of PED use under his management, and started making excuses for McGwire after his congressional testimony. I lost all respect for him after that. Also, when it comes to managers and GM's, I'm much less forgiving than to players. Managers and GM's should know better. They are in charge, they have no excuses.

I think you are confused in thinking that I would completely forgive certain PED users, and never forgive others. I condemn all PED users, including those who used only greenies in the 1970's. However, the type of PED used, the situation in which they were used, and how and when the team acquired them, all affects how I would feel about them being on a team I root for. Some, I wouldn't want on my team at all, some I would be upset over, but would tolerate, and some I wouldn't care much about at all.