League of Denial: The NFL's Concussion Crisis | FRONTLINE

[Kingspoint]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/league-of-denial/

Anyone watch Frontline last night? An hour and a half on the NFL's blatant whitewashing of evidence given to them over 20 years ago and every year since then, with Goodell speaking before Congress with the identical behavior that the Tobacco companies showed before Congress with their early denials of cigarette smoking and it's link to cancer.



76 of 79 Deceased NFL Players Found to Have Brain Disease

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sports/concussion-watch/76-of-79-deceased-nfl-players-found-to-have-brain-disease/


The findings represent a more than twofold increase in the number of cases of chronic traumatic encephalopathy, or CTE, that have been reported by the Department of Veterans Affairs’ brain repository in Bedford, Mass. Researchers there have now examined the brain tissue of 128 football players who, before their deaths, played the game professionally, semi-professionally, in college or in high school. Of that sample, 101 players, or just under 80 percent, tested positive for CTE.


And, it's not the concussions, the nation's leading expert, Dr. Ann McKee (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sports/league-of-denial/the-frontline-interview-ann-mckee/) explains, but the constant non-concussion collisions that occur regularly on any play that lead to CTE (the same physical traits that advanced Alzheimer's patients have). Players who have never been diagnosed with a concussion also had CTE.


The bottom line is that if the lips are moving from a Doctor who works for an NFL team (generally), and definitely for the NFL itself, that Doctor is lying to the nth degree about whatever he says. Ask Cleveland's players and the lies they were told about the sicknesses that were going on at their facilities, as an example of how Doctors who work for the NFL teams lie when it comes to players' injuries.


When Dr. McKee was asked, "If you had children who were 8 and 10 and 12, would they play football?"

Eight, 10, 12? No, they would not.

Why?

Because the way football is being played currently, that I've seen, it's dangerous. (She's a huge football fan and from a big football family. Her brothers and father played collegiately, and she also played football. She loves the Packers.) It's dangerous, and it could impact their long-term mental health. You only get one brain. The thing you want your kids to do most of all is succeed in life and be everything they can be. And if there's anything that may infringe on that, that may limit that, I don't want my kids doing it.

High school OK?

You know, I just don't feel like I'm in a position to say anything is OK right now. I'm not going to -- I'm not even sure about high school football, even well-managed high school football. We see this in some high schoolers. Let's figure out what this is and how to prevent it, and then I'll say we should all be playing football.

College?

I have a lot of college football players in my Brain Bank with CTE.


The cover-up in the Ray Rice incident fits the NFL's profile perfectly.


The only reason that the NFL settled out of court in the lawsuit with those suing over brain trauma caused by the NFL's negligence to inform the player's of the issues was because the NFL did not want the details of their cover-up brought to light. Everyone involved would have had to testify about their actions and inactions. That would do more damage than the $750M they agreed to in arbitration. A Federal Judge found that the $750M was not enough and removed the cap on the settlement.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sports/league-of-denial/judge-approves-nfl-concussion-settlement/

''The revised settlement is a great deal - for the NFL and class counsel,'' who would get $112.5 million in attorneys' fees, the players' motion said. ''It is a lousy deal for the retired players, whose rights have been bargained away without adequate or independent representation.''

Others have challenged the settlement’s award structure for CTE specifically, claiming it only allows for such payments if a player was diagnosed with the disease before the day that the agreement won preliminary approval in July. This detail, they say, would shut out any player who may be diagnosed in the future.

[Sea Ray]

I don't see a problem as long as the NFL doesn't suppress any evidence. As far as I'm concerned NFL players have access to information concerning the risks of the game just like anyone else and then it's up to them to decide whether make a living in that manner

[Kingspoint]

I don't see a problem as long as the NFL doesn't suppress any evidence. As far as I'm concerned NFL players have access to information concerning the risks of the game just like anyone else and then it's up to them to decide whether make a living in that manner

Hopefully, you can get the time to see the show through your computer. If you get a chance to read some of the articles, or if you had seen the show, it was pointed out pretty clearly that football players did not have any access to this information and that the NFL suppressed it and continues to suppress it.

The NFL is doing such a great job of it, that they have everyone on REDSZONE fooled, too, as the number of responses to this thread shows little interest, when there should be outrage instead. It's much worse than what they've done concerning domestic violence, but since there's no elevator video to draw people's attention, it's easy to shove this information aside and ignore it. Slides of brain tissue doesn't have the same effect.

[wolfboy]

The settlement is a raw deal for the players. But as you can see from the snippets Kingspoint posted above, the case has a lot of problems. The biggest problem IMHO is that NFL players played in college, high school, and in pee-wee leagues. Most players probably had their bell rung in some fashion at each level. Couple that with the theory that it may not even take a concussive impact for CTE to develop, and you've got one hell of a problem pinning causation on the NFL.

[RedFanAlways1966]

I watched it. Only b/c I thought the A's had it wrapped up when ahead 7-3 (dumb me!). If this is true, how can so many doctors be lying> That is the real question that stuck in my mind. I might be dumb (as the Royals showed), but am I stupid enough to believe so many medical professionals would go against all they are taught for the love of the NFL and money? These people take an oath to protect people (of some sort). Would they really lie and cover-up like this? I do not know and there have been many doctors found guilty of bad things during my life. But I still ask.

[Sea Ray]

Hopefully, you can get the time to see the show through your computer. If you get a chance to read some of the articles, or if you had seen the show, it was pointed out pretty clearly that football players did not have any access to this information and that the NFL suppressed it and continues to suppress it.

The NFL is doing such a great job of it, that they have everyone on REDSZONE fooled, too, as the number of responses to this thread shows little interest, when there should be outrage instead. It's much worse than what they've done concerning domestic violence, but since there's no elevator video to draw people's attention, it's easy to shove this information aside and ignore it. Slides of brain tissue doesn't have the same effect.

If the NFL is indeed suppressing it then they're really exposing themselves

[Chip R]

I watched it. Only b/c I thought the A's had it wrapped up when ahead 7-3 (dumb me!). If this is true, how can so many doctors be lying> That is the real question that stuck in my mind. I might be dumb (as the Royals showed), but am I stupid enough to believe so many medical professionals would go against all they are taught for the love of the NFL and money? These people take an oath to protect people (of some sort). Would they really lie and cover-up like this? I do not know and there have been many doctors found guilty of bad things during my life. But I still ask.

I don't think it's surprising a doctor would do and say these things. Are they lies? Probably but they can always back it up by saying that it's not necessarily a cause and effect. That playing football may not be the cause of CTE and CTE may not cause these problems. Let's say you have a sore back. You go to Doctor A and he tells you it's a slipped disc. You go to Doctor B and he says it's just a muscle pull. Neither doctor may be lying but they just have different opinions on what is wrong with you. Doctors who are paid by the NFL and are dazzled by the lure of pro football have incentive to form an opinion favorable to their employer.

Another thing that I believe to be true is that even if the NFL knew 20 years ago what they know now and decided to be forthcoming and tell the players everything; they could put a sign on every bench that warns them that playing football could lead to concussions which could lead to brain disease which could lead to early death and players would still want to play. These guys are in their 20s and early 30s and most men that age feel like they can do anything. They feel that even if they have problems, medical technology in the future will fix them up. Even if it doesn't, what is the alternative? Working at Wal Mart for minimum wage? Maybe they would have enough money to retire without having to work again but most likely they won't. Even though most of these guys went to college they are probably not well educated. While I have an enormous amount of sympathy for the players and I believe the NFL covered this up to protect themselves, you can't always protect people from themselves.

[RedFanAlways1966]

Good stuff, Chip. They had one guy who was some sort of "head doctor of the NFL" that was interviewed in 2007(?) about CTE. He came across as a pompous arse by simply answering "no" to each question he was asked by the interviewer. And he seemed angry as if he could not believe people would even think that football could cause brain damage to humans.

[SunDeck]

Good comparison to the Tobacco industry, except that CTE from football is not the leading cause of preventable death in the US. But it makes sense, the financial interests here are so great that it could actually cause people who we might otherwise expect to speak the truth, to make up stories.

It seems the NFL's biggest threat is not from the immediate problems of CTE and the players they owe because of it, but rather from parents who are not letting their kids play football because of the fears they may have of brain damage. My own son never showed the slightest interest in football, but had he asked about playing I think I would have tried to dissuade him from it. As we know from baseball, the biggest challenge it faces is the switch in kids' interests from that to other sports. If that happens with football, things will change pretty seriously and now that we're hearing it's not just from head knocking but also from getting hit hard in general, football could be in for some trouble.

[improbus]

I think the league will become filled with the underprivileged seeing it was a way to quick riches and an escape from tough circumstances, because they will be the only ones willing to take those particular risks.

[nmculbreth]

I think the league will become filled with the underprivileged seeing it was a way to quick riches and an escape from tough circumstances, because they will be the only ones willing to take those particular risks.

There will always be a sub-set of the population who is willing to accept the potential long term consequences as a way out of poverty, but what happens when the youth sports organizations and local school districts start dropping football to avoid becoming involved in the same kind of lawsuits as the NFL and NCAA? Without a feeder system the NFL's player pool will start to wither away because unlike MLB, football doesn't have a pool of foreign talent to replace the American kids who end up playing other sports.

[improbus]

There will always be a sub-set of the population who is willing to accept the potential long term consequences as a way out of poverty, but what happens when the youth sports organizations and local school districts start dropping football to avoid becoming involved in the same kind of lawsuits as the NFL and NCAA? Without a feeder system the NFL's player pool will start to wither away because unlike MLB, football doesn't have a pool of foreign talent to replace the American kids who end up playing other sports.
Maybe. I would guess that the NFL will find a way to find players as long as there is money to be made.

[Chip R]

A third high school football player has died this week due to head injuries in a game. That's not counting the young man from Missouri who recently died.

http://m.cnn.com/primary/cnnd_fullarticle?articleId=cnn/2014/10/02/us/new-york-football-player-death&branding=&category=cnnd_us&pagesize=10

[kpresidente]

I think the league will become filled with the underprivileged seeing it was a way to quick riches and an escape from tough circumstances, because they will be the only ones willing to take those particular risks.

Really? You have to be underprivileged to want to make millions of dollars? I don't think so. That's a revolutionary lifestyle change whether you come from the backwoods or suburbia. I'd take that "risk" in a heartbeat if I had the talent.

And as far as those risks go, I think you've lost perspective...football players live longer, healthier lives than the average person. Significantly so. Conclusion: NOT playing football is what's risky.

[Sea Ray]

Maybe. I would guess that the NFL will find a way to find players as long as there is money to be made.

There's no maybe about it. The NFL is here to stay. It's not going anywhere. I recall in my youth they said that boxing would go away due to its violent nature and no such thing has happened.

[RedFanAlways1966]

There's no maybe about it. The NFL is here to stay. It's not going anywhere. I recall in my youth they said that boxing would go away due to its violent nature and no such thing has happened.

Good point. I'd have to guess that RACE CAR DRIVING and BOXING claim a lot of lives... more than the NFL when you do the "rate of death amongst all participants" percentage.

[cumberlandreds]

There's no maybe about it. The NFL is here to stay. It's not going anywhere. I recall in my youth they said that boxing would go away due to its violent nature and no such thing has happened.

Boxing's popularity though is not even close to what it once was. It's probably two reasons for that. The violence is one and all the shady characters that have been and are still involved in it.
I think we will see more and more parents keeping their kids from playing football the more we learn about concussions and its long term effects. We are really just tipping the iceberg on all of this. I don't think the NFL is going away anytime soon either but I can see a day where there will less and less kids playing it. Who know enough kids may not play to where there just won't be nearly as many good athletes that will choose football which will affect the quality of play. Sports like baseball,basketball and even soccer will start getting more of these better athletes.

[kpresidente]

I think the shady characters had more to do with boxing's demise, not the violence. After all, it's been replaced by MMA!

[Redsfaithful]

The popularity of MMA already seems to be waning.

[Hoosier Red]

I think the shady characters had more to do with boxing's demise, not the violence. After all, it's been replaced by MMA!

While I agree with you that the shady characters had more to do with the demise, MMA is not really more dangerous than boxing.

3 or 5 rounds of no more than 5 minutes, and fewer hits to the skull. Compare that to Boxing's 12 rounds of continued blows to the skull, and it's clear which is more dangerous in the long term. But I don't think the long term brain damage is really what turns people off.

[Chip R]

I truly think that in the next 20 years, football will be more like flag football than what it was 5-10 years ago. People rhetorically say it's flag football now but they are still hitting hard out there. I know these kids don't care about the risks when they sign up for football but I know they didn't sign up for dying. Can this society continue to endorse a sport where even if you never get a concussion, you could wind up with Alzheimers or dementia or ALS when you are in your 50s. One kid dying because of a head injury is one kid too many.

[kpresidente]

I think they'll get some new helmets, a few new rules in high school, and in 10 years this will become mostly be a piece of forgotten trivia.

[Beltway]

I don't think it's surprising a doctor would do and say these things. Are they lies? Probably but they can always back it up by saying that it's not necessarily a cause and effect. That playing football may not be the cause of CTE and CTE may not cause these problems. Let's say you have a sore back. You go to Doctor A and he tells you it's a slipped disc. You go to Doctor B and he says it's just a muscle pull. Neither doctor may be lying but they just have different opinions on what is wrong with you. Doctors who are paid by the NFL and are dazzled by the lure of pro football have incentive to form an opinion favorable to their employer.
Most of the doctors who do things like this convince themselves that they're telling the truth (mental gymnastics). Robert Kehoe is another example. He advocated for leaded gasoline for decades while being paid by the gasoline industry.


Another thing that I believe to be true is that even if the NFL knew 20 years ago what they know now and decided to be forthcoming and tell the players everything; they could put a sign on every bench that warns them that playing football could lead to concussions which could lead to brain disease which could lead to early death and players would still want to play. These guys are in their 20s and early 30s and most men that age feel like they can do anything. They feel that even if they have problems, medical technology in the future will fix them up. Even if it doesn't, what is the alternative? Working at Wal Mart for minimum wage? Maybe they would have enough money to retire without having to work again but most likely they won't. Even though most of these guys went to college they are probably not well educated. While I have an enormous amount of sympathy for the players and I believe the NFL covered this up to protect themselves, you can't always protect people from themselves.
That might be a factor, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see many schools get rid of football if high schools start getting hit with lawsuits.

[Beltway]

Hopefully, you can get the time to see the show through your computer. If you get a chance to read some of the articles, or if you had seen the show, it was pointed out pretty clearly that football players did not have any access to this information and that the NFL suppressed it and continues to suppress it.

The NFL is doing such a great job of it, that they have everyone on REDSZONE fooled, too, as the number of responses to this thread shows little interest, when there should be outrage instead. It's much worse than what they've done concerning domestic violence, but since there's no elevator video to draw people's attention, it's easy to shove this information aside and ignore it. Slides of brain tissue doesn't have the same effect.
I saw the program when it originally aired a few months ago.

[Chip R]

I think they'll get some new helmets, a few new rules in high school, and in 10 years this will become mostly be a piece of forgotten trivia.

Sure. That'll do it. :rolleyes: You think 15-17 year old kids dying due to getting their heads hit on the field is trivial?


That might be a factor, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see many schools get rid of football if high schools start getting hit with lawsuits.

Yeah but in a lot of these smaller towns high school football is the only thing they have going for them, sad to say. Not saying it won't happen but a lot of these programs won't go down without a fight.If the game is more like flag football, you can have your cake and eat it too.

[Redsfaithful]

Insurance is the x factor, it's the smaller towns that won't be able to afford insuring their programs. Lot of small towns in Ohio already don't have football - there were five high schools in the county where I grew up and only two had football. Basketball was the thing at the other schools.

[kpresidente]

Sure. That'll do it. :rolleyes: You think 15-17 year old kids dying due to getting their heads hit on the field is trivial?

Certainly not to those involved, but the numbers are tiny (about 3 per year - your kid's more likely to die from a lightning strike) and have been in decline since the 60s despite increased participation...mostly because they changed some same rules and introduced new helmets, just as I suggested.

Also, according to this compilation...

http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/risk/sports.html

....these sports are more deadly than football:

swimming
cycling
running
soccer
tennis

Where's the outrage?

[nmculbreth]

Certainly not to those involved, but the numbers are tiny (about 3 per year - your kid's more likely to die from a lightning strike) and have been in decline since the 60s despite increased participation...mostly because they changed some same rules and introduced new helmets, just as I suggested.

Also, according to this compilation...

http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/risk/sports.html

....these sports are more deadly than football:

swimming
cycling
running
soccer
tennis

Where's the outrage?

You're trying to compare apples to orangutangs. The risks of sudden death in football is quite low but you're ignoring the litany of long term health issues that appear long after a person's playing days are over.

Unless there is an unreported epidemic of retired swimmers and tennis players suffering from dementia, early-onset Alzheimers or Parkinson's disease as the result of brain trauma that occurred in their athletic careers using that data to argue that any of those sports are more dangerous than football is pretty disingenuous.

[M2]

I think the league will become filled with the underprivileged seeing it was a way to quick riches and an escape from tough circumstances, because they will be the only ones willing to take those particular risks.

Exactly. You see very few middle class boxers these days. Chris Algieri is about the only one I can think of.

Football's headed down that road. You can see the divide all over the region where I live. Pop Warner organizations are starving for cash. The principal reason why is the vast majority of kids who play are lower and working class. I live in the same town as Bob Kraft. He's tried like crazy to bolster the local high school and youth football teams. He's built fields, bought uniforms/equipment and sponsored flag football leagues through the rec department. No one plays. Our HS team hasn't won a game in two years. No one goes to the games. No one cares. The sport is dead here. A lot of area universities have dropped football programs because there's just not a feeder system coming from local high schools. If they're selecting for academic accomplishment they simply can't find football players. Plus, the programs weren't selling enough tickets to make money.

It seems like the NFL has been savvy on this. It'll get players from the lower rungs of the economic scale and cultivate fantasy football players from the middle and upper rungs of the economic scale.

[kpresidente]

You're trying to compare apples to orangutangs. The risks of sudden death in football is quite low but you're ignoring the litany of long term health issues that appear long after a person's playing days are over.

Unless there is an unreported epidemic of retired swimmers and tennis players suffering from dementia, early-onset Alzheimers or Parkinson's disease as the result of brain trauma that occurred in their athletic careers using that data to argue that any of those sports are more dangerous than football is pretty disingenuous.

I'm not comparing apples and oranges, you're jumping between two different topics. The post I responded to was specifically about on-field deaths, and I showed clearly the chances of that are trivial. The long term effect is a different issue altogether, unrelated to the point I was making about those other sports. But regarding those long term risks, I already pointed at that on average, football players live longer, healthier lives than the average Joe, because obviously there are benefits to playing football as well. Now, don't take that to mean I'm claiming the long-term trauma risks aren't there, it's just to provide some perspective in all this.

[improbus]

I remember hearing Jason Taylor tell stories about what the players did to stay on the field and the injuries they endured when there. He once got leg whipped, went home after the game and had trouble sleeping. He found that the only way he could sleep was to stand up on the stairs and lean against the wall. Finally, the pain was too much and he called the doctor. The doctor told him that if he didn't come in soon, he would lose his leg. He found out later that had what was known as compartment syndrome. Taylor also told of playing with a picc line to his heart, lines of players taking multiple giant needles of toradol, and various other ailments and pains.

The human body isn't made to play football, especially at the sizes and speeds of college and the NFL. The lengths they go to in order to get on and then stay on the field is harrowing and something that very few other people would be willing to endure. What is the tipping point on the amount of suffering the fans can live with? We will see.

[Joseph]

I'm not comparing apples and oranges, you're jumping between two different topics. The post I responded to was specifically about on-field deaths, and I showed clearly the chances of that are trivial. The long term effect is a different issue altogether, unrelated to the point I was making about those other sports. But regarding those long term risks, I already pointed at that on average, football players live longer, healthier lives than the average Joe, because obviously there are benefits to playing football as well. Now, don't take that to mean I'm claiming the long-term trauma risks aren't there, it's just to provide some perspective in all this.

Where's the info that football players live longer, healthier lives than the average person come from? I've not seen such information in the past, I believe I've read the opposite but I can't verify that off the top of my head. Just curious btw, not piling on or anything.

[M2]

Where's the info that football players live longer, healthier lives than the average person come from? I've not seen such information in the past, I believe I've read the opposite but I can't verify that off the top of my head. Just curious btw, not piling on or anything.

I don't know how long they live, but retired NFL players are often a sad sight: they limp around a lot, endure chronic pain and seem to age prematurely.

I suppose he could be referring to the larger set of people who played football at all, though that probably just captures a selection of people who are more likely to be physically active throughout their lives. I'm guessing the same would apply to tennis players, cross country runners, volleyball players and skateboarders too.

[kpresidente]

Guys....

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-09/nfl-players-live-longer-suffer-less-from-cancer-heart-disease.html

And yes, its probably a result of the fact that they're professional athletes. That's the point. You're looking at the risks and ignoring the benefits. If you're so outraged about football players, you should be outraged about the "risks" of having an office job, being a musician, teaching classes, writing software, or any of the thousands of other sedentary lifestyles that people live. But you're not, are you?

Also, as far as how the human body was "designed", we were designed to roam the countryside in nomadic hunting packs. Nothing in the modern world resembles that.

[improbus]

Guys....

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-09/nfl-players-live-longer-suffer-less-from-cancer-heart-disease.html

And yes, its probably a result of the fact that they're professional athletes. That's the point. You're looking at the risks and ignoring the benefits. If you're so outraged about football players, you should be outraged about the "risks" of having an office job, being a musician, teaching classes, writing software, or any of the thousands of other sedentary lifestyles that people live. But you're not, are you?

Also, as far as how the human body was "designed", we were designed to roam the countryside in nomadic hunting packs. Nothing in the modern world resembles that.
I think you are confusing causation and correlation. Yes, football players are great athletes and they are probably more naturally healthy. But, that isn't because of football. That is because of the genetics that that allow them to play football.

I would be interested to see the difference between football and other sports that recruit high level athletes.

[kpresidente]

So I'm "confusing" cause and correlation because you speculate that this is all a genetic effect? Because why should anybody expect a lifestyle that demands you maintain peak physical conditioning have positive impacts on your health, right? C'mon man.

Also, comparing them to other top athletes won't control for lifestyle, since they're going to have similar conditioning habits. Understand, I'm not comparing football to other sports, I'm comparing football to NOT playing sports for a living.

[Kingspoint]

I think the league will become filled with the underprivileged seeing it was a way to quick riches and an escape from tough circumstances, because they will be the only ones willing to take those particular risks.
...kind of like joining the army. (not making fun of the army...I voluntarily served myself...just stating that if it wasn't for the poor, minorities and underpriveleged, we wouldn't have enough people to make up an army...I joined for financial and educational reasons myself).

[Kingspoint]

Maybe. I would guess that the NFL will find a way to find players as long as there is money to be made.
The commissioner's office has virtually guaranteed an 18-game season soon. They have no desire to lessen the physical trauma players absorb. They have committed to adding a group of international teams in search of those international dollars.

The Thursday Night games have already proved to me to cause more injuries for those who participate. I've read many times from Coaches and players that they don't have time to physically recover.

[Kingspoint]

There's no maybe about it. The NFL is here to stay. It's not going anywhere. I recall in my youth they said that boxing would go away due to its violent nature and no such thing has happened.
It had to go internationally to find it's poor and underpriveleged to survive, just like the NFL is doing.

When I grew up in the 60's and 70's kids boxed then as often as they rode skateboards ten years ago. Everybody did it in our neighborhood. But, we were the poorest "white" neighborhood in town. Most of us became construction workers. You ended up with pretty thick skin. Today kids have the smallest amount of disappointment and they go shoot up their school. Football may be the closest thing for teaching these kids to have discipline, to learn from disappointment, and to develop thick skin. Life is a never-ending series of disappointments. If you can't learn to handle them and quit crying about it like a baby, you're never going to be ready for the good moments that come your way (and you'll be a whiny pain-in-the-butt that nobody wants to be around while not being a useful member of your community at the same time).

[Hoosier Red]

It had to go internationally to find it's poor and underpriveleged to survive, just like the NFL is doing.

When I grew up in the 60's and 70's kids boxed then as often as they rode skateboards ten years ago. Everybody did it in our neighborhood. But, we were the poorest "white" neighborhood in town. Most of us became construction workers. You ended up with pretty thick skin. Today kids have the smallest amount of disappointment and they go shoot up their school. Football may be the closest thing for teaching these kids to have discipline, to learn from disappointment, and to develop thick skin. Life is a never-ending series of disappointments. If you can't learn to handle them and quit crying about it like a baby, you're never going to be ready for the good moments that come your way (and you'll be a whiny pain-in-the-butt that nobody wants to be around while not being a useful member of your community at the same time).

The boxing analogy is somewhat limited because while there was certainly a time when it was high on everyone's mind, that was also a time of very limited media, and the top fighters only fighting well watched matches once or twice per year.

That said, among the problems they've had is that once the majority of the talent was coming from a different country, the appetite of the United States media diminished.

[traderumor]

Baseball faded for a time, kids who did play were wearing facemask helmets, some were wearing heart guards, after some reports about deaths and long-term injuries. Parents took their kids to play soccer because that was safer, then "headers can cause head/neck injuries" is exposed, soccer is not thriving in this area anymore, baseball is getting its numbers back. Moral of the story: reports come out, alarmists do what alarmists do, it causes some good changes, the game recovers. I don't think football is going anywhere anytime soon. And I've sat on the other side of the safety fence, but I'm going to let my son who wants to play do so. I'm also letting them get their license, knowing they have a high risk of getting severely injured in an auto accident at some point.

In Ohio, football is thriving in suburbia. Most of the big schools doing well are outerbelt type teams. It seems to be the exact opposite of what M2 is describing. Dumb Midwesterners again, I guess.

Just as an aside, I'm also worried about sleep apnea, diabetes and heart disease in lineman playing football. But I'm also worried about those same things in inactive kids who sit around and do nothing because they are not involved in meaningful physical activity. What about bike riding? Motocross jumping? backyard football? Diving? Wrestling? Gymnastics? Ice Skating? Hockey?

I know this is a jumbled mess of thoughts, but I think my position is that life is dangerous, lets just all get wrapped in bubble wrap and sit around and eat healthy food and walk on a treadmill.

[M2]

It might be an innerbelt vs. outerbelt type of thing. I know in eastern cities there's noticeable differences between suburbs in or close to the urban core and the exurbs. Some of it is money, but some of it is culture too. Very little has changed during the last 30 years in some outer burbs (and in some smaller working class cities). Meanwhile, where I live (effectively a suburb nestled inside the city of Boston) there's very little interest in doing things the way they were done when we were kids. So you do see more and less traditional towns.

Also, New England-New York has a different vibe from the mid-Atlantic which has a different vibe from the south. Eastern PA and western PA are two different worlds, with something like rural Kentucky in the middle of them. My guess is metro Chicago differs from southern Ohio, which has a vastly different vibe from metro Kansas City.

FWIW, I'd have let my son play football if he had any interest, but competitive sports aren't his gig (we bike). My daughter is the jock. I don't subscribe to the protect them from life ethos. That said, I'd rather see my kids get the things sport has to offer - fitness, confidence, resolve, work ethic - from places other than football. The game revolves around jamming you shoulders into other people with maximum force. Ultimately there's no way to keep your head and neck out of the fray.

[Kingspoint]

(CNN)*-- The rough sports he loved may have helped to do Kosta Karageorge in at age 22. He gained attention as a 6'-5", 285-lb. Ohio State football defensive tackle, but he was also a wrestler.

Police believe he shot himself but are still investigating. Near his body, which was found in a Dumpster, was a handgun.

But Karageorge suffered from concussions, his mother said, and they weighed heavily on him in the last text message he sent her from his cell phone.

"I am sorry if I am an embarrassment but these concussions have my head all f***ed up," he wrote early Wednesday. He was last seen alive minutes later, according to a tweet from his personal account.

Karageorge had gone for a walk that night, upset about something,Cleveland.com reported.

When he didn't show for football practice Wednesday morning, he was reported missing.

Police, some on horseback, scoured the area around campus for Karageorge. Students joined in, posting fliers with his photo under windshield wipers and on telephone posts.

Body found while*

Then on Sunday afternoon, a woman and her son scavenging containers came upon his body, Columbus police Sgt. Richard Weiner said. Police identified Karageorge by his tattoos.

The school's athletics department expressed shock and sadness over his death. "Our thoughts and prayers are with the Karageorge family, and those who knew him, during this most difficult time," it said in a statement.

The college athlete was a walkon player, who joined the Buckeye's team this season, Cleveland.com reported. He had wrestled at the school for three years.

Team physician Dr. Jim Borchers said that the team was not able to discuss or comment on Karageorge's medical care.

"First and foremost, our primary concern is for the health, safety and welfare of Kosta. ... We are confident in our medical procedures and policies to return athletes to participation following injury or illness," Borchers said.

After night fell, hundreds of students gathered on campus at a statue of Ohio State University's founder to remember Karageorge. They stood in silence, heads bowed.

CNN's Dana Ford and Joshua Berlinger contributed to this report.

[Kingspoint]

This goes under the heading, "League of Denial", instead of the "Ray Rice" issue...

From Rotoworld w/ Rotoworld comments:

The league-commissioned Mueller Report determined the NFL never saw the video of Ray Rice knocking out his fiancée before it was publicly released on September 8.

Predictably, the "independent" report takes the tone of a wrist slapping. "We found no evidence that anyone at the NFL had or saw the in-elevator video before it was publicly shown," the report said. "We also found no evidence that a woman at the NFL acknowledged receipt of that video in a voicemail message on April 9, 2014." The report did say the league "should have done more with the info it had," and "should have taken additional steps to obtain all available information." All in all, the report doesn't change the tone of the debate, or shed any real light on what happened.

Source: ESPN.com (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12138032/nfl-did-not-previously-see-ray-rice-elevator-video-according-mueller-report?ex_cid=espnapi_public)


...yeah....right.

[Kingspoint]

Of course, the NHL has it's own issues with head shots and concussions...

From Rotoworld with Rotoworld comments:

Former NHL defenseman Steve Montador has passed away at the age of 35.

Montador last played in the NHL in 2011-12 when he was a member of the Chicago Blackhawks. He totalled 131 points in 571 games with Calgary, Florida, Anaheim, Boston, Buffalo and Chicago. Our condolences go out to the entire Montador family.

Source:*Renaud Lavoie on Twitter

[Kingspoint]

It's been proven you can't wait for the NFL to warn you of the dangers. You have to be proactive, which is what Borland says he is doing.

"I feel largely the same, as sharp as I've ever been. For me, it's wanting to be proactive," Borland said. "I'm concerned that if you wait till you have symptoms, it's too late. ... There are a lot of unknowns. I can't claim that X will happen. I just want to live a long healthy life, and I don't want to have any neurological diseases or die younger than I would otherwise."

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/12496480/san-francisco-49ers-linebacker-chris-borland-retires-head-injury-concerns

[RedTeamGo!]

I honestly think future generations will grow up in a world without NFL football.

[Slyder]

I honestly think future generations will grow up in a world without NFL football.

There will be an NFL... National Flagfootball League and it will be glorified 7 on 7 drills.

[RedTeamGo!]

There will be an NFL... National Flagfootball League and it will be glorified 7 on 7 drills.

It may be for the best. Do we as humans really need to watch other humans inflict serious head injuries on one another for entertainment?

[Kingspoint]

Do we as humans really need to watch other humans inflict serious head injuries on one another for entertainment?

I think we do.

[Sea Ray]

It may be for the best. Do we as humans really need to watch other humans inflict serious head injuries on one another for entertainment?

That's a side effect of the game itself. If the purpose of the game was to injure your opponent (like boxing) then I'd agree with you

[RedTeamGo!]

That's a side effect of the game itself. If the purpose of the game was to injure your opponent (like boxing) then I'd agree with you

I think a large percentage of NFL fans enjoy the violence of the game, but that doesn't really matter. Many football players are experiencing traumatic head injuries because we as a society enjoy what they are doing. Free market and all that, but at what point should we as a society take a minute and think about what we are supporting?

In the end, football is just a game, and people are dying because of a game.

[Kingspoint]

I think a large percentage of NFL fans enjoy the violence of the game, but that doesn't really matter. Many football players are experiencing traumatic head injuries because we as a society enjoy what they are doing. Free market and all that, but at what point should we as a society take a minute and think about what we are supporting?

In the end, football is just a game, and people are dying because of a game.

Nobody's dying "because of a game". People are dying as they do in every aspect in life....because of money.

[Boston Red]

It may be for the best. Do we as humans really need to watch other humans inflict serious head injuries on one another for entertainment?

Well....yeah.

[RedTeamGo!]

Nobody's dying "because of a game". People are dying as they do in every aspect in life....because of money.

If you could eliminate 1000 people in the next 10 years from suffering traumatic brain injuries which regularly result in suicide by ending football would you do it? I would. I will just watch more baseball and soccer. Football is just a game.

[Kingspoint]

If you could eliminate 1000 people in the next 10 years from suffering traumatic brain injuries which regularly result in suicide by ending football would you do it? I would. I will just watch more baseball and soccer. Football is just a game.

No I would not, and I've led the charge on this website for bringing to light the serious nature of the negative effects of head trauma. There's bigger fish to fry.

Nor would I ban transfats in New York City or handguns in Chicago. Banning things is no way to deal with problems. If that were the case, I'd have a very long list of things I would ban. Call me Emperor Kingspoint, then.

There needs to be independent medical personnel who work for the player's union assigned to each team and weight needs to be given to their recommendations regarding the players' safety.

[Sea Ray]

No I would not, and I've led the charge on this website for bringing to light the serious nature of the negative effects of
head trauma.

As long as it's a choice and we don't go back to Roman gladiator days when people were forced into playing deadly games then I have no problem with it. I have no problem with the choice Borland madeor the choice Burfict has made which is that he doesn't care how messed up gets leading with his head

[Razor Shines]

If you could eliminate 1000 people in the next 10 years from suffering traumatic brain injuries which regularly result in suicide by ending football would you do it? I would. I will just watch more baseball and soccer. Football is just a game.

More people will die from swimming pools or motorcycles or 100s of other regular everyday activities than from football in that time frame. You can't just get rid of things that people choose to do just because you think you know better than them.

[RedTeamGo!]

More people will die from swimming pools or motorcycles or 100s of other regular everyday activities than from football in that time frame. You can't just get rid of things that people choose to do just because you think you know better than them.

Sure you can...our government does it all the time.

Driving 200 mph on public roads
Taking heroin, crystal meth, cocaine, etc

The issue with football is, even though we have been trying really hard recently to understand, we still do not have a real understanding of how much damage is being done to the human brain by playing football.

Swimming pool/Motorcycle accidents are accidents.

Football = an authority figure (coach) telling a child/teenager/young man to "get out there and rip that running backs head off!!!!!!" When you put a big hit on an opposing player you are doing exactly what you are supposed to do, and are celebrated for it.

Here is a good example of a legal, celebrated football hit:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY6k7ycz2_E

This is disgusting.

[Boston Red]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY6k7ycz2_E


Awesome! Take that kicker!

Actually, I still can't figure out how that wasn't a penalty. That was blatant head-hunting.

[Razor Shines]

I'm pretty sure that's a penalty.

Driving 200 MPH on public roads is illegal, but it's totally legal within the context of a sport. Sacking someone on a public sidewalk is also illegal.

[Kingspoint]

The issue with football is, even though we have been trying really hard recently to understand, we still do not have a real understanding of how much damage is being done to the human brain by playing football.

We don't have a real understanding of how much damage is being done to the human brain by taking into our bodies sugar. But, banning sugar is not the answer.

[RedTeamGo!]

We don't have a real understanding of how much damage is being done to the human brain by taking into our bodies sugar. But, banning sugar is not the answer.

Eating sugar is totally comparable to deliberately running head first into a man for the specific reason of hitting him as hard as possible.

[Kingspoint]

Eating sugar is totally comparable to deliberately running head first into a man for the specific reason of hitting him as hard as possible.

It is when you ask my wife when she sees me eat something that she wouldn't.

[blumj]

Stupid NFL isn't allowing Junior Seau's family to speak at his HOF induction, how can they not realize how awful that makes them look?

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/25/sports/football/junior-seaus-family-will-not-be-allowed-to-speak-at-his-hall-of-fame-induction.html?smid%3D=tw-nytsports&_r=0

[Kingspoint]

Stupid NFL isn't allowing Junior Seau's family to speak at his HOF induction, how can they not realize how awful that makes them look?

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/25/sports/football/junior-seaus-family-will-not-be-allowed-to-speak-at-his-hall-of-fame-induction.html?smid%3D=tw-nytsports&_r=0
They are in a heated lawsuit. They can't be trusted what they'll say.

[blumj]

They are in a heated lawsuit. They can't be trusted what they'll say.
But then they'd be the ones who looked bad if they used the opportunity to say anything inappropriate to the occasion.

[dougdirt]

They are in a heated lawsuit. They can't be trusted what they'll say.

Rule #1: Look out for #1.

[M2]

I read stories like Antwaan Randle El struggling with brain damage in his 30s (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/01/19/_2006_super_bowl_hero_wishes_he_had_never_played_p ro_football.html) and I wonder how long this sport survives. At some point high schools and colleges are going to find themselves in the liability crosshairs on this.

[wolfboy]

I read stories like Antwaan Randle El struggling with brain damage in his 30s (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/01/19/_2006_super_bowl_hero_wishes_he_had_never_played_p ro_football.html) and I wonder how long this sport survives. At some point high schools and colleges are going to find themselves in the liability crosshairs on this.

The pending lawsuit against Ridell should be an interesting one to monitor. One of the difficulties in the concussion lawsuits is that it's near impossible to pinpoint when CTE or other concussion related damage occurs. Most players begin tackle football in grade school and continue through high school, college or even the pros. Helmets exist at every level of competitive football, so it should be interesting to see how that one pans out.

[Chip R]

I read stories like Antwaan Randle El struggling with brain damage in his 30s (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/01/19/_2006_super_bowl_hero_wishes_he_had_never_played_p ro_football.html) and I wonder how long this sport survives. At some point high schools and colleges are going to find themselves in the liability crosshairs on this.

I'm sure it'll survive somehow. While it isn't nearly popular as football, boxing still survives. Kids, especially underprivileged kids, will still see football as a way out. Most young people think they will live forever and aren't going to worry about brain damage. The NFL bears a lot of blame for this but players who have not reported concussion symptoms bear some blame as well. Frankly, I'm not sure if you can make the game safe unless you turn it into flag football.

[marcshoe]

I'm sure it'll survive somehow. While it isn't nearly popular as football, boxing still survives. Kids, especially underprivileged kids, will still see football as a way out. Most young people think they will live forever and aren't going to worry about brain damage. The NFL bears a lot of blame for this but players who have not reported concussion symptoms bear some blame as well. Frankly, I'm not sure if you can make the game safe unless you turn it into flag football.

Which may need to happen with youth football. The difference in football and boxing is the sheer number of kids involved in play. As injury awareness increases, a strong movement will grown. Around here we have a youth coach's kid in he hospital with a brain tumor that was almost certainly caused by football. This will start to affect more and more people directly, and, although it may come slowly because of the sheer passion involved, things will change.

[M2]

Which may need to happen with youth football. The difference in football and boxing is the sheer number of kids involved in play. As injury awareness increases, a strong movement will grown. Around here we have a youth coach's kid in he hospital with a brain tumor that was almost certainly caused by football. This will start to affect more and more people directly, and, although it may come slowly because of the sheer passion involved, things will change.

Boxing also doesn't rely on schools to further its talent. I'm really not sure how educational institutions can afford to put students in harm's way. We're reaching the point where they can't claim ignorance. A guy like Randle El in 20 years is going to have a case not just against the NFL, but against his college and high school. If those are public schools, that's tax dollars on the line. Maybe big time college programs like Ohio State can afford to insure against and pay out injury claims for a while, but very few high schools are going to have that kind of money. This threatens the pipeline.

[RedTeamGo!]

There will come a time, maybe 20 years, maybe 50, where the NFL is shut down because of this stuff. I've been called all kinds of names for this stance, and I expect that to continue for the time being.

[Chip R]

Boxing also doesn't rely on schools to further its talent. I'm really not sure how educational institutions can afford to put students in harm's way. We're reaching the point where they can't claim ignorance. A guy like Randle El in 20 years is going to have a case not just against the NFL, but against his college and high school. If those are public schools, that's tax dollars on the line. Maybe big time college programs like Ohio State can afford to insure against and pay out injury claims for a while, but very few high schools are going to have that kind of money. This threatens the pipeline.

I think you would have a hard time convincing people that their school's football program needs to be eliminated. Especially places like Ohio, Texas, Florida, California and Pennsylvania. Maybe it ceases to be sponsored by the public schools and they form some sort of a club team sponsored by the boosters. Perhaps parents will have to sign some sort of waiver that indemnifies the organization from lawsuits if they want their sons to participate.

[Assembly Hall]

Football has been around a very, very longtime. It aint going away. The sport has safety issues that are slowly but surely coming to light. The game will evolve to take care of those concerns like it has done in the past. Hell, they used to play it with leather head gear!

We are all aware of the consequences of smoking, but yet people continue to do it. Why? Because they enjoy it. Alcohol got outlawed once...how did that work? Kinda of comparing apples to oranges here, but people like their football.

[Caveat Emperor]

There will come a time, maybe 20 years, maybe 50, where the NFL is shut down because of this stuff. I've been called all kinds of names for this stance, and I expect that to continue for the time being.

The NFL isn't going to shut down, but the sport is going to have to change and evolve in order to survive. Whether those changes are such that it ends America's love affair with the game is an open question.

There's a good argument to be made that the way forward for youth / high school football is already out there -- 7 on 7. There's already an active 7 on 7 scene as kind of a quasi-AAU for kids to continue playing and get noticed by college coaches while simultaneously reducing risk of injury, so it's not far out to imagine more schools switching to that in the future.

The other possible option is looking backwards to the sports rugby origins and removing all the protective padding and gear for players -- which, theoretically, would provide more incentive for careful play.

[puca]

I think you would have a hard time convincing people that their school's football program needs to be eliminated. Especially places like Ohio, Texas, Florida, California and Pennsylvania. Maybe it ceases to be sponsored by the public schools and they form some sort of a club team sponsored by the boosters. Perhaps parents will have to sign some sort of waiver that indemnifies the organization from lawsuits if they want their sons to participate.

I could definitely see a time coming where football and other at-risk sports are no longer allowed at public high schools or middle schools, and the decision will not come from the parents, but from legislation. It will not be a popular decision, but regulating things that concern the health of students would not be an unprecedented action. All it might take is a zealous lawyer and a class-action lawsuit. That alone will not kill the NFL, but it will put a choke-hold on the pipeline. Playing football will require increasingly more and more money and commitment - much like other club sports - two things that the majority of households will not be willing or able to commit.

[puca]

Football has been around a very, very longtime. It aint going away. The sport has safety issues that are slowly but surely coming to light. The game will evolve to take care of those concerns like it has done in the past. Hell, they used to play it with leather head gear!

We are all aware of the consequences of smoking, but yet people continue to do it. Why? Because they enjoy it. Alcohol got outlawed once...how did that work? Kinda of comparing apples to oranges here, but people like their football.

And yet in the two examples you give it is still not legal for minors to partake regardless of parental consent.

[wolfboy]

The NFL isn't going to shut down, but the sport is going to have to change and evolve in order to survive. Whether those changes are such that it ends America's love affair with the game is an open question.

There's a good argument to be made that the way forward for youth / high school football is already out there -- 7 on 7. There's already an active 7 on 7 scene as kind of a quasi-AAU for kids to continue playing and get noticed by college coaches while simultaneously reducing risk of injury, so it's not far out to imagine more schools switching to that in the future.

The other possible option is looking backwards to the sports rugby origins and removing all the protective padding and gear for players -- which, theoretically, would provide more incentive for careful play.

I've heard this one a lot. The only problem I see is that we know so little about when and how CTE develops. Most assume that the catastrophic or concussive hits are the primary driver; however, some believe that even smaller impacts might collectively cause CTE to develop over time.

[Caveat Emperor]

I've heard this one a lot. The only problem I see is that we know so little about when and how CTE develops. Most assume that the catastrophic or concussive hits are the primary driver; however, some believe that even smaller impacts might collectively cause CTE to develop over time.

The issue, based on what I've read, is repeated injury to the brain before it has had time to fully recover from previous injuries. The trouble is, no two brains are alike when it comes to what level of trauma causes injury, what sorts of symptoms mainfest, and how quickly the brain recovers following injury. Small impacts might be causing injuries in certain people without symptoms ever manifesting, leaving them susceptible to the type of permanent damage that can occur on a repeated injury.

Either way, the clear solution is to reduce head impacts as much as possible.

Taking away padding won't solve all the problems, but it should still lessen the totally number of hits to the head that an average player will take. This is mostly because people will start to protect themselves more without the added security of pads and thick plastic helmets. Stripped of all the equipment, natural protective instincts take over for all parties involved in the sport and you'll see more avoidance of heavy contact and safer tackling techniques.

[WrongVerb]

There will come a time, maybe 20 years, maybe 50, where the NFL is shut down because of this stuff. I've been called all kinds of names for this stance, and I expect that to continue for the time being.

Well, I for one agree with you here. I think in 20-30 years football will be a minor sport and I can certainly see it gone by the end of the century and probably sooner.

[Assembly Hall]

And yet in the two examples you give it is still not legal for minors to partake regardless of parental consent.

It wasnt always that way, things just change....that was my point.

[M2]

I think you would have a hard time convincing people that their school's football program needs to be eliminated. Especially places like Ohio, Texas, Florida, California and Pennsylvania. Maybe it ceases to be sponsored by the public schools and they form some sort of a club team sponsored by the boosters. Perhaps parents will have to sign some sort of waiver that indemnifies the organization from lawsuits if they want their sons to participate.

The problem with going the private club route is that gets expensive. High school sports are community-subsidized sports. If you go with a true pay-to-play model, I suspect it gets too rich for the blood of too many families. Practice fields, transport, equipment, liability coverage, coaches' salaries, league fees, that stuff adds up. I have no doubt we'd see a movement to form clubs, but I question how sustainable it is if municipalities need to construct a legal firewall between themselves and the club. If you've got to pay the sticker price to use community fields and be insured out the ying-yang, that's a tricky situation.

I don't think it's going to happen quickly, but it's awfully hard to justify risking your municipal solvency on having a high school football team. Seems to me, that's where this leads.

[marcshoe]

The NFL isn't going to shut down, but the sport is going to have to change and evolve in order to survive. Whether those changes are such that it ends America's love affair with the game is an open question.

There's a good argument to be made that the way forward for youth / high school football is already out there -- 7 on 7. There's already an active 7 on 7 scene as kind of a quasi-AAU for kids to continue playing and get noticed by college coaches while simultaneously reducing risk of injury, so it's not far out to imagine more schools switching to that in the future.

The other possible option is looking backwards to the sports rugby origins and removing all the protective padding and gear for players -- which, theoretically, would provide more incentive for careful play.

When I lived in Sydney, I went to a ton of rugby matches. It was probably my favorite sport to watch outside of baseball. The baseball league I played in (badly) was connected to the Rugby League club.

One thing they weren't was careful.

At time, it resembled mass professional wrestling. I once saw a guy on my team pick up an opposing player and slam him into the ground head-first. And, best as I could tell, this was legal at the time.

This is the guy who did the slamming. He was one of my favorites.

http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2007/07/14/va1237256714144/Men-of-League-5567852.jpg

[gonelong]

One thing they weren't was careful.

I hung out with a few Rugby players in college. Watching them play was one thing, hanging out with them off the field was like transporting to another dimension. Careful was never in play in any way, shape, or form.

GL

[KronoRed]

New helmets will save the day *sarcasm*
http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/helmet3.gif

[M2]

The issue, based on what I've read, is repeated injury to the brain before it has had time to fully recover from previous injuries. The trouble is, no two brains are alike when it comes to what level of trauma causes injury, what sorts of symptoms mainfest, and how quickly the brain recovers following injury. Small impacts might be causing injuries in certain people without symptoms ever manifesting, leaving them susceptible to the type of permanent damage that can occur on a repeated injury.

Either way, the clear solution is to reduce head impacts as much as possible.

Taking away padding won't solve all the problems, but it should still lessen the totally number of hits to the head that an average player will take. This is mostly because people will start to protect themselves more without the added security of pads and thick plastic helmets. Stripped of all the equipment, natural protective instincts take over for all parties involved in the sport and you'll see more avoidance of heavy contact and safer tackling techniques.

In theory I agree with that. When I played organized football, I was taught to launch myself like a missile at opposing players. Never would have done that without the body armor.

However, Samoan rugby legend Jonah Lomu died at 40 from what everyone suspects are CTE-related issues. I'm guessing in the future we'll have a firmer idea of how damaging football is compared to rugby, but we're early days in term of collecting that information.

[Tom Servo]

New helmets will save the day *sarcasm*
http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/helmet3.gif
I honestly can't tell which is supposed to be 'better'.

[wolfboy]

The issue, based on what I've read, is repeated injury to the brain before it has had time to fully recover from previous injuries. The trouble is, no two brains are alike when it comes to what level of trauma causes injury, what sorts of symptoms mainfest, and how quickly the brain recovers following injury. Small impacts might be causing injuries in certain people without symptoms ever manifesting, leaving them susceptible to the type of permanent damage that can occur on a repeated injury.

Either way, the clear solution is to reduce head impacts as much as possible.

Taking away padding won't solve all the problems, but it should still lessen the totally number of hits to the head that an average player will take. This is mostly because people will start to protect themselves more without the added security of pads and thick plastic helmets. Stripped of all the equipment, natural protective instincts take over for all parties involved in the sport and you'll see more avoidance of heavy contact and safer tackling techniques.

Yeah. I think we're on the same page. I guess what's scary is that we don't know how much of a role subconcussive head injuries play in the development of CTE. Kids hit their heads in hockey, soccer, baseball and lacrosse. Most times they won't show evidence of a concussion. It might not be a helmet to helmet hit - it might be head to ground or head to arm or leg.

[wolfboy]

The problem with going the private club route is that gets expensive. High school sports are community-subsidized sports. If you go with a true pay-to-play model, I suspect it gets too rich for the blood of too many families. Practice fields, transport, equipment, liability coverage, coaches' salaries, league fees, that stuff adds up. I have no doubt we'd see a movement to form clubs, but I question how sustainable it is if municipalities need to construct a legal firewall between themselves and the club. If you've got to pay the sticker price to use community fields and be insured out the ying-yang, that's a tricky situation.

I don't think it's going to happen quickly, but it's awfully hard to justify risking your municipal solvency on having a high school football team. Seems to me, that's where this leads.

I'm not knowledgeable in this area, but isn't that basically what AAU is? You're right on the high cost, but I get the impression it's easily paid for through sponsorship deals, etc...

[marcshoe]

Yeah. I think we're on the same page. I guess what's scary is that we don't know how much of a role subconcussive head injuries play in the development of CTE. Kids hit their heads in hockey, soccer, baseball and lacrosse. Most times they won't show evidence of a concussion. It might not be a helmet to helmet hit - it might be head to ground or head to arm or leg.

My nephew suffered a fairly sound concussion on a helmet-to-shoulderpad hit. He ended up exiting organized sports because of a heart problem (the kind where players drop dead on the court; when it hit him, he was able to get medical help in time.) With his size, he could have probably ended up with a football scholarship, so who knows? Maybe this was better.

[westofyou]

And yet in the two examples you give it is still not legal for minors to partake regardless of parental consent.

Plus he fails to recognize that at one time it was so bad that the President had to step in (granted that was 110 years ago)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2014/05/29/teddy-roosevelt-helped-save-football-with-a-white-house-meeting-in-1905/

- - - Updated - - -


My nephew suffered a fairly sound concussion on a helmet-to-shoulderpad hit. He ended up exiting organized sports because of a heart problem (the kind where players drop dead on the court; when it hit him, he was able to get medical help in time.) With his size, he could have probably ended up with a football scholarship, so who knows? Maybe this was better.

My nephew had to quit playing hockey because of lingering concussion issues at age 16

[Chip R]

The problem with going the private club route is that gets expensive. High school sports are community-subsidized sports. If you go with a true pay-to-play model, I suspect it gets too rich for the blood of too many families. Practice fields, transport, equipment, liability coverage, coaches' salaries, league fees, that stuff adds up. I have no doubt we'd see a movement to form clubs, but I question how sustainable it is if municipalities need to construct a legal firewall between themselves and the club. If you've got to pay the sticker price to use community fields and be insured out the ying-yang, that's a tricky situation.

I don't think it's going to happen quickly, but it's awfully hard to justify risking your municipal solvency on having a high school football team. Seems to me, that's where this leads.


I'm not knowledgeable in this area, but isn't that basically what AAU is? You're right on the high cost, but I get the impression it's easily paid for through sponsorship deals, etc...

Club football is obviously not a cure-all and while basketball seems to thrive on it, the cost is much less because you don't have many basketball players. They only need shoes, uniforms, transportation and basketballs. In football you have all of that plus equipment. I don't known what the alternative is but I think you may have an easier time taking people's guns away from them than shuttering their football programs. Earlier someone mentioned at-risk sports. It's not just football. It's hockey, it's lacrosse and it's also soccer.

It's sad what is happening to Randle-El but while he says now he wishes he would have chosen baseball, for various reasons that we have discussed over on the ORG, African Americans have gravitated away from baseball. One major reason, I believe, is that if you are a top-notch football or basketball player, when you turn pro, you are getting paid at market rate. In baseball, with few exceptions, you have to play in the minors for 2-5 years then play at a below market rate for 3-6 years.

Pete Carroll from the Seattle Seahawks is teaching a style of tackling where it is closer to rugby tackling rather than what they teach in football.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/jon-solomon/25356375/how-pete-carrolls-rugby-style-tackle-is-changing-college-football

[puca]

Club football is obviously not a cure-all and while basketball seems to thrive on it, the cost is much less because you don't have many basketball players. They only need shoes, uniforms, transportation and basketballs. In football you have all of that plus equipment. I don't known what the alternative is but I think you may have an easier time taking people's guns away from them than shuttering their football programs. Earlier someone mentioned at-risk sports. It's not just football. It's hockey, it's lacrosse and it's also soccer.

It's sad what is happening to Randle-El but while he says now he wishes he would have chosen baseball, for various reasons that we have discussed over on the ORG, African Americans have gravitated away from baseball. One major reason, I believe, is that if you are a top-notch football or basketball player, when you turn pro, you are getting paid at market rate. In baseball, with few exceptions, you have to play in the minors for 2-5 years then play at a below market rate for 3-6 years.

Pete Carroll from the Seattle Seahawks is teaching a style of tackling where it is closer to rugby tackling rather than what they teach in football.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/jon-solomon/25356375/how-pete-carrolls-rugby-style-tackle-is-changing-college-football

The government controls what is served in the cafeteria, available in vending machines, it has banned dodge ball from gym and tag from the playground for safety reasons. How long until it sets it's sights on the extra curricular activities such as football. I'm telling you it is just a law suit away. Even with safer tackling techniques there is no way to get rid of accidental blows to the head and the impact of the head and the ground.

[IslandRed]

Plus he fails to recognize that at one time it was so bad that the President had to step in (granted that was 110 years ago)

Yep. Don't get me wrong -- players using the helmet as a weapon is a problem. But reducing head protection is a cure worse than the disease, a true "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it" strategy. Concussions are bad, and it is a threat to the long-term future of the game; going back to the days where young players died by the scores from skull fractures will kill it a lot faster.

[Redsfaithful]

People who don't like football sometimes sound gleeful about imagining it going away, but nearly every sport has CTE issues, including soccer and hockey.

Think Aroldis Chapman will have CTE? Is one serious blow enough?

I believe Randle-El made something like $30-$40 mil in his career. Is our view as society that no amount of money is worth brain trauma or a difficult middle/old age? I'm not against that view, but I think it's laughable to act like we feel that way as a society, because there are plenty of examples of people debilitating themselves for much less than seven figures a year.

How many soldiers have CTE? http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/06/health/cte-blast-variant/

We aren't suggesting less people enlist in the military.

I'm playing devil's advocate here a bit, my opinions aren't settled on any of it. I certainly don't think anyone needs to be playing tackle football before high school, at the earliest.

[marcshoe]

People who don't like football sometimes sound gleeful about imagining it going away, but nearly every sport has CTE issues, including soccer and hockey.

Think Aroldis Chapman will have CTE? Is one serious blow enough?

I believe Randle-El made something like $30-$40 mil in his career. Is our view as society that no amount of money is worth brain trauma or a difficult middle/old age? I'm not against that view, but I think it's laughable to act like we feel that way as a society, because there are plenty of examples of people debilitating themselves for much less than seven figures a year.

How many soldiers have CTE? http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/06/health/cte-blast-variant/

We aren't suggesting less people enlist in the military.

I'm playing devil's advocate here a bit, my opinions aren't settled on any of it. I certainly don't think anyone needs to be playing tackle football before high school, at the earliest.

This is where I think we need to start. My high school biology teacher wouldn't let his sons play football until they were in high school because he didn't think football was physically safe for younger children, and this was long before worries about concussions. I'd like to see more flag football leagues be made available to parents who have worries, at least as a beginning.

This is all making me enjoy watching football less. That's too bad, because there's something aesthetically compelling about the way plays develop.

[Roy Tucker]

Nothing lasts forever. From the original Fortune 100 list from Forbes magazine, there is only *one* company left on it (GE).

[M2]

People who don't like football sometimes sound gleeful about imagining it going away, but nearly every sport has CTE issues, including soccer and hockey.

Think Aroldis Chapman will have CTE? Is one serious blow enough?

I believe Randle-El made something like $30-$40 mil in his career. Is our view as society that no amount of money is worth brain trauma or a difficult middle/old age? I'm not against that view, but I think it's laughable to act like we feel that way as a society, because there are plenty of examples of people debilitating themselves for much less than seven figures a year.

How many soldiers have CTE? http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/06/health/cte-blast-variant/

We aren't suggesting less people enlist in the military.

I'm playing devil's advocate here a bit, my opinions aren't settled on any of it. I certainly don't think anyone needs to be playing tackle football before high school, at the earliest.

My take is that the devil is in the incidence rates. You absolutely can get head trauma in any sport, but football is starting to look like a recipe for it. I suspect the NHL is going to ban fighting over this issue. The WWE banned chair shots. I suspect this was under the covers when baseball got rid of home plate collisions.

The adults willing to risk those injuries for money ... well, that's their prerogative. Like you noted, we still have humans working in coal mines. In sports we still have boxing. Yet I think it's going to become increasingly unfeasible for schools to participate in the sport. That, and parents will become increasingly reluctant to let their sons play organized football.

If they don't play the sport until at least high school, then reasonably athletic kids probably will find something else. Though, on the flip side, flag football is hella fun. Lots of action, minimal down time, no old man telling you what to do. So maybe football will become even more popular.

[Tom Servo]

I've been a fan of football longer than I've been a fan of baseball, and I wouldn't say I'm feeling gleeful about it, but I am glad and relieved that the issue is finally being brought up to debate. I agree that at the very least we need to do something about kids playing tackle football.

Of course, I will admit that there is a selfish part of me that wants to see the best athletes choose baseball over football, I won't deny that.

[alwaysawarrior]

My take is that the devil is in the incidence rates. You absolutely can get head trauma in any sport, but football is starting to look like a recipe for it. I suspect the NHL is going to ban fighting over this issue. The WWE banned chair shots. I suspect this was under the covers when baseball got rid of home plate collisions.

The adults willing to risk those injuries for money ... well, that's their prerogative. Like you noted, we still have humans working in coal mines. In sports we still have boxing. Yet I think it's going to become increasingly unfeasible for schools to participate in the sport. That, and parents will become increasingly reluctant to let their sons play organized football.

If they don't play the sport until at least high school, then reasonably athletic kids probably will find something else. Though, on the flip side, flag football is hella fun. Lots of action, minimal down time, no old man telling you what to do. So maybe football will become even more popular.

I agree with this sentiment. I have a 3 year old son right now, and my father and I just had this discussion. I haven't put tons of thought into it yet as he's still pretty young but if I had to give you an answer today he's not playing. And I believe this is where the sport will begin to get in trouble, maybe I'm wrong but I see in the future more and more parents saying the same thing.

[dougdirt]

In theory I agree with that. When I played organized football, I was taught to launch myself like a missile at opposing players. Never would have done that without the body armor.

However, Samoan rugby legend Jonah Lomu died at 40 from what everyone suspects are CTE-related issues. I'm guessing in the future we'll have a firmer idea of how damaging football is compared to rugby, but we're early days in term of collecting that information.

Two things: I remember the first time I played pick up football in my neighborhood with a kid who actually played real football. This was in the 4th grade, so we were what, 9 or 10? So 1993/1994 Winter. He tried tackling us much like you say you were taught: He was literally diving at us from 8 feet away, just launching himself at us. No pads. No helmets. Easy to avoid, but freaking scary. I had never seen anything like it and somehow, 20+ years later it still sticks with me.

Second thing: I saw something a few months back about soccer players developing CTE and ALS as well. The repeated head blows from something as simple as a header was one of the theories. It was one of the ESPN shows, either E60 or Outside the Lines. Not that soccer doesn't have some violent collisions, but it's not like rugby or football in the sense of sheer volume or probably impact in terms of how hard it was (soccer players are fast, but generally not nearly as big as the other two sports guys are).

I don't know.... it's going to get worse before it gets better. For several sports, I'd imagine.

[Kingspoint]

BOSTON*(Reuters) - Football practices at the United States' elite Ivy League universities may be a little bit quieter next year as coaches consider banning tackling outside of actual games, a spokesman for the league said on Tuesday. Top football coaches at elite universities including Harvard, Yale and Princeton, are mulling the move as concerns grow that head injuries can take a severe toll on players' mental acuity as they age. "This is something that has only been discussed and is not approved in any way," said Scottie Rodgers, a spokesman for the eight-school conference, which also includes Columbia, Brown, Cornell, Dartmouth and the University of Pennsylvania.

He noted that rule changes in the league are formally put forward by school athletics directors at annual meetings that take place in May and submitted for final approval in June. The league's coaches agreed to the move in a vote last week, the New York Times reported earlier on Tuesday. Research has increasingly linked the head injuries that are commonly experienced in football, hockey and other contact sports with chronic traumatic encephalopathy, a condition that causes lesions on the brain and can lead to aggression and dementia later in life.

There are currently no tests to diagnose CTE in a living patient, but Boston University researchers have found evidence of the condition in the brains of 90 of 94 former National Football League players it has studied since 2008.

One leader of the effort to limit college players' concussion risks is Dartmouth College's head football coach, Buddy Teevens, who last season introduced a robot tackling dummy developed by engineering students at the Hanover, New Hampshire, school. The motorized dummy, called the "Mobile Virtual Player" is the approximate size and weight of a college football player, and allowed Dartmouth's players to practice full-speed hits while limiting the risk of injury.*

- - - Updated - - -

http://ca.reuters.com/article/sportsNews/idCAKCN0W35OW

[Chip R]

NFL acknowledges link between football and brain disease.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/14972296/top-nfl-official-acknowledges-link-football-related-head-trauma-cte-first

[cumberlandreds]

NFL acknowledges link between football and brain disease.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/14972296/top-nfl-official-acknowledges-link-football-related-head-trauma-cte-first

Next thing you know they will acknowledge that it gets dark at night and sunny during the day. The revelations will never cease.

[Chip R]

The NFL's deeply flawed concussion research. Apparently from 1996 through 2001 over 100 diagnosed concussions were omitted from the NFL's studies.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/25/sports/football/nfl-concussion-research-tobacco.html?_r=1

[Chip R]

So the NFL'S insurance companies are balking at paying the league for the concussion settlement.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-29/nfl-insurers-can-begin-gathering-evidence-in-concussion-case

[Kingspoint]

So the NFL'S insurance companies are balking at paying the league for the concussion settlement.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-29/nfl-insurers-can-begin-gathering-evidence-in-concussion-case

And, rightfully so, as the NFL was not forthright about it.

[Chip R]

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/15667689/congressional-report-finds-nfl-improperly-intervened-brain-research-cost-taxpayers-16-million

[Kingspoint]

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/15667689/congressional-report-finds-nfl-improperly-intervened-brain-research-cost-taxpayers-16-million

Controlling research studies is the norm and not the exception in this country in order to shape opinion to fit the needs of those paying for the research. It doesn't make what they did, have done before, and apparently will continue to do as they continue to show no remorse for their past wrong-doings, acceptable behavior.

Believe half of what you see and nothing of what you hear, and investigate all "research" beyond it's original sources and you can get close to getting half of the picture of whatever it is you're trying to learn about.

There is no such thing as uncorruptible sources. Every source is potentially corruptible.

[Kingspoint]

I don't see a problem as long as the NFL doesn't suppress any evidence. As far as I'm concerned NFL players have access to information concerning the risks of the game just like anyone else and then it's up to them to decide whether make a living in that manner

So, now do you see that the NFL has been suppressing the evidence for over 20 years? And, after all of this came out, they just got caught again trying to supress more evidence by trying to manipulate a study they thought they could control by offering a $30M bribe to the NIH, then later tried to deny payment on after those in control of this bribe would not cooperate with the NFL, by agreeing with the NFL, to choose some hand-picked researchers/doctors that the NFL had in their control.

The NFL is as evil in their treatment of it's players as the U.S. Military was to it's members and the public regarding germ-warfare research. I thought that was the best comparison, but to discuss that comparison further, it probably would have to go to the political forum, I would think.

[Sea Ray]

I'll leave what's happened in the past to the courts. But from this point forward it's buyer beware as far as players and taking on the risks to play this sport. I think all players/parents should have to sign a waiver where they know the risks of playing football including head injuries.

[Kingspoint]

I'll leave what's happened in the past to the courts. But from this point forward it's buyer beware as far as players and taking on the risks to play this sport. I think all players/parents should have to sign a waiver where they know the risks of playing football including head injuries.

But, it's not buyer beware. That's the point. The NFL has for decades been lying, hiding evidence, and putting out false health reports in order to make a buck at the expense of the lives and welfare of it's employees and their families. Now, it comes out that after they were caught red-handed, that they intend on continuing to give it's employees and future employees false information.

They had set aside $30M in order to later have an excuse they could point to that might justify their behavior both in court and out of court. They continue to be devious and unrepentant regarding their lack of concern over their employees' health.

The NFL's latest attempt to dissuade arguments against not participating in football at the grade school and high school levels (and this is what it's really about) shows that they will do whatever they can to stop information from reaching "the buyer". "Buyer beware" is the poster child slogan for those companies, governmental agencies and institutions wishing to hide information from it's users that could benefit it's users, but could hurt the company, goverment entity or institution.

[Sea Ray]

But, it's not buyer beware. That's the point. The NFL has for decades been lying, hiding evidence, and putting out false health reports in order to make a buck at the expense of the lives and welfare of it's employees and their families. Now, it comes out that after they were caught red-handed, that they intend on continuing to give it's employees and future employees false information.

They had set aside $30M in order to later have an excuse they could point to that might justify their behavior both in court and out of court. They continue to be devious and unrepentant regarding their lack of concern over their employees' health.

The NFL's latest attempt to dissuade arguments against not participating in football at the grade school and high school levels (and this is what it's really about) shows that they will do whatever they can to stop information from reaching "the buyer". "Buyer beware" is the poster child slogan for those companies, governmental agencies and institutions wishing to hide information from it's users that could benefit it's users, but could hurt the company, goverment entity or institution.

It's buyer beware in how the release is worded. You hold the team harmless for chronic injuries suffered such as but not limited to head, joint and bone injuries. Everyone knows that playing the game can cause head injuries now and they don't need the NFL to tell them. There are other sources.

[Kingspoint]

It's buyer beware in how the release is worded. You hold the team harmless for chronic injuries suffered such as but not limited to head, joint and bone injuries. Everyone knows that playing the game can cause head injuries now and they don't need the NFL to tell them. There are other sources.

No such waiver should ever be signed. Sueing is the only threat that can keep them honest. They have to be held responsible if neglect occurs. But, even being fined 1 Billion dollars has woken up the NFL to change their corruptive behaviors. Instead, they've chosen to find other ways to manipulate the evidence.

And, no...the information on the damages to the human body are not yet available to parents at this time. There is some, and it shows that kids should not be playing football, but there's very little completed compared to what needs to be done still. Football should not be banned by any means, but the research on repeated hits needs to be further investigated, so that more safety precautions can be implemented to limit the damage done.

[Kingspoint]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/25/health/cte-nfl-players-brains-study/index.html

http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2645104

Question What are the neuropathological and clinical features of a case series of deceased players of American football neuropathologically diagnosed as having chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE)?

Findings In a convenience sample of 202 deceased players of American football from a brain donation program, CTE was neuropathologically diagnosed in 177 players across all levels of play (87%), including 110 of 111 former National Football League players (99%).

[bucksfan2]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/25/health/cte-nfl-players-brains-study/index.html

http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2645104

Question What are the neuropathological and clinical features of a case series of deceased players of American football neuropathologically diagnosed as having chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE)?

Findings In a convenience sample of 202 deceased players of American football from a brain donation program, CTE was neuropathologically diagnosed in 177 players across all levels of play (87%), including 110 of 111 former National Football League players (99%).

I don't want to discredit any of the work in CTE and concussions. However, I think this study used a sample that was predisposed to give them the answer they wanted. A few questions that I would love to see answered in order to really get a full understanding of CTE

-What does the average brain look like?
-What does the average brain look like at different stages in life?
-Are there any predispositions based upon gender, race, or other non contact issues?
-What does the brain of a football player who isn't experiencing symptoms look like?
-When will science be able to look for CTE while a person is living?

I think studies like this bring about a very important topic and do initiate change. I would like to see a more complete study than what is presented. I heard on the radio that of the 111 former NFL players studied, there were concerns from family or friends that the player was experience CTE like symptoms while living. It was like they got their perfect sample and proceeded from there.

[Kingspoint]

They have 111 because 111 families agreed to have a post-mortem auptopsy done.

In previous studies you'll find all the answers to your above questions.

[Redsfaithful]

Enjoy football while it lasts.

It'll be weird to see how such a popular thing unwinds.

[Kingspoint]

So, October 13th Congress and members (only Democrats showed up from any of the committees) of the Judiciary Committee, Commerce Committee and one other Committee met with Dr's McKee and Stern (neurologist from Boston), Harry Carson, DeAndre Levy, and other experts to discuss what can be done, needs to be done and should be done to prevent this degenerative brain disease caused by repeated blows to the head. Football was the focus, but it was clear that soccer is equally dangerous regarding this disease.

The bottom line is that tackle football and using the head in soccer should not be allowed to exist for children to participate in. I agree. There's no argument that can be made that supports the idea that it's OK to allow a child to be hit in the head 300 times.

Beginning today, I'm never going to talk about football or soccer, watch a football or soccer game or participate in anything that supports the playing of the sports, or any other sport that involves repeated shocks to the head that sends the brain moving forcefully against the walls of the cranium, such as wrestling, boxing, car racing, etc., unless it involves discussing safety issues involving the sport which can only be eliminating those shocks to the head, such as flag football, no heading in soccer (penalty would be just like a hand touch), car racing is finished as the jostling is unpreventable, etc.

Howard Cosell was right.

[Sea Ray]

So, October 13th Congress and members (only Democrats showed up from any of the committees) of the Judiciary Committee, Commerce Committee and one other Committee met with Dr's McKee and Stern (neurologist from Boston), Harry Carson, DeAndre Levy, and other experts to discuss what can be done, needs to be done and should be done to prevent this degenerative brain disease caused by repeated blows to the head. Football was the focus, but it was clear that soccer is equally dangerous regarding this disease.

The bottom line is that tackle football and using the head in soccer should not be allowed to exist for children to participate in. I agree. There's no argument that can be made that supports the idea that it's OK to allow a child to be hit in the head 300 times.

Beginning today, I'm never going to talk about football or soccer, watch a football or soccer game or participate in anything that supports the playing of the sports, or any other sport that involves repeated shocks to the head that sends the brain moving forcefully against the walls of the cranium, such as wrestling, boxing, car racing, etc., unless it involves discussing safety issues involving the sport which can only be eliminating those shocks to the head, such as flag football, no heading in soccer (penalty would be just like a hand touch), car racing is finished as the jostling is unpreventable, etc.

Howard Cosell was right.

It amazes me that soccer doesn't wear some sort of protective head gear. Even something like a bike helmet would help. Honestly I'm thinking that's all it would take to address the problem in that sport.

So you're giving up on football? Your fantasy team? You PFF stats and figures?

Personally I think all this info should be out there and the players can make their own choice. Ditto for other dangerous sports like race car driving or boxing. If they make the choice to take that risk then us fans can decide as well whether we care to follow it.

[Kingspoint]

It amazes me that soccer doesn't wear some sort of protective head gear. Even something like a bike helmet would help. Honestly I'm thinking that's all it would take to address the problem in that sport.

So you're giving up on football? Your fantasy team? You PFF stats and figures?

Personally I think all this info should be out there and the players can make their own choice. Ditto for other dangerous sports like race car driving or boxing. If they make the choice to take that risk then us fans can decide as well whether we care to follow it.

Wearing head gear protects the head, not the brain, which is the same in football, per the creators of helmets. The only solution in soccer is to ban heading the ball. The only solution in football is to remove tackling and helmets and use flags.

Men and women can do anything they want. Children need to be protected. Football was invented for men to play. High Schools only got involved after Colleges sought recruits. Pop Warner, CYO and other Grade School programs only got involved after High Schools sought recruits.

When hard helmets and the youth programs developed simultaneously in the late 50's and early '60's, there is a whole group of former players who are in their 50's and '60's who have yet to have their degenerative brain diseases diagnosed, who will soon be diagnosed.

I would not let my children or grandchildren play any of these sports with the knowledge that is available now. Unfortunately, 99.9% of Coaches are in denial, even those in charge of "safety" programs and "concussion" (the NFL's buzzword in order to mask the true risk, which is repeated jostling of the brain against the walls of the cranium) seminars and committees, while the vast majority of parents do not have knowledge of the dangers involved.

Do you think it's OK for your daughter to be hit in the head 300 times in a six month stretch? Because if you do, you should be horse-whipped. That's what's occurring when you allow her to play organized soccer.

I love watching football. But, I can't in good conscience support something that I know kills people where the abuse begins as children. They are just stupid games. There's more important things in life.

[Kingspoint]

Trust me, SeaRay. I will miss the conversations, the FFB, and much more, but I would be a hypocrite by pretending to care for people if I participated in these activities. Either don't care or don't participate. I started this thread three years ago because I knew then what I know now and wanted to get it talked about on a forum that would make an impact, but it took until now to do the right thing.

[Redsfaithful]

Soccer should definitely ban heading. You're not losing much to do that. I say that as a very casual soccer fan, I'm sure the hard core fans will look at me like I'm crazy, but I think it's easier to see from the outside looking in sometimes. It would be virtually the same game from where I sit.

Sometimes you should look at these things like you were creating them today. If soccer were invented today there would be no heading the ball. If you suggested it people would look at you like you were dumb. Get rid of it.

Football, I really don't know. The kid that knocked himself out in the Michigan - OSU game yesterday ... it's hard to keep watching. Especially when you can't tell yourself that at least he's getting paid.

Flag football would be a viable professional sport if there were no tackle, but it would be minor I think.

High school football cannot possibly have more than another decade or two of run left.

[Kingspoint]

70% of my fandom is the Cincinnati Reds, anyway, so I'm good.

[nmculbreth]

Trust me, SeaRay. I will miss the conversations, the FFB, and much more, but I would be a hypocrite by pretending to care for people if I participated in these activities. Either don't care or don't participate. I started this thread two years ago because I knew then what I know now and wanted to get it talked about on a forum that would make an impact, but it took until now to do the right thing.

This is where I'm at too. After the seeing the prevalence of CTE in former players it became impossible to pretend that football was any different than combat sports like MMA and boxing, which I don't watch or follow... I don't fault people for watching (especially the NFL where grown men are making a voluntary decision and are well compensated) but on a personal level I can't stomach the idea of having guys inflict themselves with brain injuries (not to mention all the other physical ailments) for my entertainment.

[dougdirt]

This is where I'm at too. After the seeing the prevalence of CTE in former players it became impossible to pretend that football was any different than combat sports like MMA and boxing, which I don't watch or follow... I don't fault people for watching (especially the NFL where grown men are making a voluntary decision and are well compensated) but on a personal level I can't stomach the idea of having guys inflict themselves with brain injuries (not to mention all the other physical ailments) for my entertainment.

There's a theory in the MMA community, and I'm not a doctor, but it makes some sense: knockouts in MMA are generally 1-2 punches. It's not like boxing where you get his in the head 185 times in a fight. Or in sparring leading up to it. CTE is generally associated with the repeated impacts. I think there is a difference between MMA and boxing in this regard. How much? I'm not sure. I don't know if it's enough to make a difference or not. But, I do think there could be something to it, at least in terms of being compared 1-to-1 with boxing.

[RedTeamGo!]

Soccer should definitely ban heading. You're not losing much to do that. I say that as a very casual soccer fan, I'm sure the hard core fans will look at me like I'm crazy, but I think it's easier to see from the outside looking in sometimes. It would be virtually the same game from where I sit.

Sometimes you should look at these things like you were creating them today. If soccer were invented today there would be no heading the ball. If you suggested it people would look at you like you were dumb. Get rid of it.

Football, I really don't know. The kid that knocked himself out in the Michigan - OSU game yesterday ... it's hard to keep watching. Especially when you can't tell yourself that at least he's getting paid.

Flag football would be a viable professional sport if there were no tackle, but it would be minor I think.

High school football cannot possibly have more than another decade or two of run left.

I think interest in high school football is waning regardless of the CTE. In places like Ohio, Florida, and Texas not so much, but in other places I think as boomers die out the following generations just don’t get as excited about high school kid athletics.

[Chip R]

I think interest in high school football is waning regardless of the CTE. In places like Ohio, Florida, and Texas not so much, but in other places I think as boomers die out the following generations just don’t get as excited about high school kid athletics.

It's certainly possible. I follow some people back in Iowa and I've heard that there have been more and more schools that couldn't field teams. My alma mater which is a small school is strongly considering going to 8 man football. Of course that's not eliminating it but it's close. I find it hard to fathom that high school football will be gone in mine or any of our lifetimes. It may be scaled back somewhat but it will be around.

[RedTeamGo!]

It's certainly possible. I follow some people back in Iowa and I've heard that there have been more and more schools that couldn't field teams. My alma mater which is a small school is strongly considering going to 8 man football. Of course that's not eliminating it but it's close. I find it hard to fathom that high school football will be gone in mine or any of our lifetimes. It may be scaled back somewhat but it will be around.

Agreed, I don’t think HS football is going to completely go away or anything, I just think it’s popularity is waning.

[Redsfaithful]

I think interest in high school football is waning regardless of the CTE. In places like Ohio, Florida, and Texas not so much, but in other places I think as boomers die out the following generations just don’t get as excited about high school kid athletics.

In places that value education especially. Here in Bexley it's been brought up in the town Facebook discussion group.

Let me tell you too - the reaction from some is like talking politics with someone very reactionary. The backlash from high school football going away, should it ever happen, will be monumental.

This is in a town with a bad football history mind you. They won their first playoff game ever (I believe) in 2016, and then went 0-10 the next year. Now compare that reaction, which was strongly emotional from some, to what'll happen from towns with rich football histories, maybe in school districts that don't send kids to Ivy League level schools regularly.

There will be riot level anger if it's too sudden. It needs to die off very gradually, for the good of overall society. God forbid it's just banned because insurers won't write policies any more.

[Redsfaithful]

This is where I'm at too. After the seeing the prevalence of CTE in former players it became impossible to pretend that football was any different than combat sports like MMA and boxing, which I don't watch or follow... I don't fault people for watching (especially the NFL where grown men are making a voluntary decision and are well compensated) but on a personal level I can't stomach the idea of having guys inflict themselves with brain injuries (not to mention all the other physical ailments) for my entertainment.

This makes me wonder, what were adults thinking pre-2000?

I was a kid then, so it wasn't something I thought about, but how were people buying those videotapes of guys getting knocked out and finding them funny?

I see guys get hit and go limp and just feel sick.

I remember when the Bengals hurt Trent Green. That might have been the first time I started thinking this isn't right. (And here I am still watching football a decade plus later, which probably doesn't speak well for my character.)

The Green hit, if you have a strong stomach (his head bounces off the ground - even in slow motion it's horrific):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIrzOrPUfX4

Incredible side note: that wasn't flagged or fined whatsoever.

[Kingspoint]

Agreed, I don’t think HS football is going to completely go away or anything, I just think it’s popularity is waning.
It's popularity in the South, which includes Texas, will keep it active in the High Schools and Grade Schools for a long time.

For now, there needs to be a federally mandated waiver consent signed by parents in front of the health professionals after they have attended seminars run by health professionals not connected to school systems or athletics before children below College can participate.

[Kingspoint]

Where I grew up, everybody boxed as much as they did any other sport. I had so many lumps on my head by the time I was eight just from doing stupid things, getting any more of them was never considered hazardous. We were ignorant of the consequences. It's fine to get hits to the head under normal growing up shenanigans, but to have sanctioned, organized activities run by adults where children are the victims of repeated jostlings of the brain where proof now exists that it leads to the same issues as many of the sub-categories of Alzheimer's, including death, is barbaric. It's so hypocritical what schools consider to be child abuse and tell children as definitions of child abuse, while at the same time rooting for them to bash each others' heads in, or root for a girls soccer match where a girl will strike with her head a projectile coming at it at 25-45 mph, jostling the brain on impact, placing that child one blow closer to CTE.

[nmculbreth]

There's a theory in the MMA community, and I'm not a doctor, but it makes some sense: knockouts in MMA are generally 1-2 punches. It's not like boxing where you get his in the head 185 times in a fight. Or in sparring leading up to it. CTE is generally associated with the repeated impacts. I think there is a difference between MMA and boxing in this regard. How much? I'm not sure. I don't know if it's enough to make a difference or not. But, I do think there could be something to it, at least in terms of being compared 1-to-1 with boxing.

Perhaps that's true, I don't know enough about the sport to comment one way or the other... I just know that I won't watch a sport that involves people trying to beat each other up for my entertainment.

No value judgment about anyone who does watch it, it's just not my cup of tea.


This makes me wonder, what were adults thinking pre-2000?

I was a kid then, so it wasn't something I thought about, but how were people buying those videotapes of guys getting knocked out and finding them funny?

I see guys get hit and go limp and just feel sick.

I remember when the Bengals hurt Trent Green. That might have been the first time I started thinking this isn't right. (And here I am still watching football a decade plus later, which probably doesn't speak well for my character.)

The Green hit, if you have a strong stomach (his head bounces off the ground - even in slow motion it's horrific):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIrzOrPUfX4

Incredible side note: that wasn't flagged or fined whatsoever.

It was easier to celebrate those type of hits when you thought that everyone miraculously snapped back to life after a minute or two and there was no long term consequences.

If nothing else the CTE issue has altered the way a lot of people view big hits. Twenty or thirty years ago a violent collision was a cause for celebration, now I think a lot of people feel the same sort of uneasiness you do. To be sure there are still some knuckle draggers who long for the days of Ronnie Lott when men were men and whatnot but for a lot of people the calculus is different.

[Redsfaithful]

The NFL still doesn't take this seriously. The fact that it's legal to lead with your helmet and hit someone in the head EVER is incredible:

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/11/26/16703644/tj-watt-pittsburgh-steelers-green-bay-packers-sack-rule-roughing-the-passer

Putting aside that it's the Steelers so who knows, it's probably a flag on 28-30 of the other teams.

[Sea Ray]

This makes me wonder, what were adults thinking pre-2000?

I was a kid then, so it wasn't something I thought about, but how were people buying those videotapes of guys getting knocked out and finding them funny?

I see guys get hit and go limp and just feel sick.

I remember when the Bengals hurt Trent Green. That might have been the first time I started thinking this isn't right. (And here I am still watching football a decade plus later, which probably doesn't speak well for my character.)

The Green hit, if you have a strong stomach (his head bounces off the ground - even in slow motion it's horrific):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIrzOrPUfX4

Incredible side note: that wasn't flagged or fined whatsoever.

Nor should it have been flagged, even under today's rules. The hit was in no way to the head. The head injury was caused by Green's head hitting the turf. This kind of thing isn't something that can be legislated out of the league. This needs to be coached. As a QB, you can't allow yourself to take hits like that. You've got to either go out of bounds or go down on your own. In that game Green had success scrambling and in this case he's a RB going for the 1st down sticks. The Bengals were well w/i their rights to knock him back so he doesn't gain the frst down. Russell Wilson is the best scrambler I've seen for avoiding hard hits.

[Chip R]

The NFL still doesn't take this seriously. The fact that it's legal to lead with your helmet and hit someone in the head EVER is incredible:


You're not wrong. They had a play in the Bengals game on Sunday where a DB for the Browns got flagged for a hit on a defenseless receiver. It was the wrong call because the receiver wasn't defenseless. What should have been called was leading with the head and hitting head to head. The announcers said he led with the shoulder and hit him in the chest but it looked to me like he led with the head and hit him in the face mask which is head and neck area. We've seen over the past few weeks that players are either passing or not taking the concussion protocol test. We had something a few weeks ago where Russell Wilson got knocked for a loop and was sent off. He basically goes to the concussion protocol tent long enough to say hi and he's back on the field. They either need to take this concussion protocol seriously or just scrap it altogether and go back to how it used to be.

[M2]

I think interest in high school football is waning regardless of the CTE. In places like Ohio, Florida, and Texas not so much, but in other places I think as boomers die out the following generations just don’t get as excited about high school kid athletics.


It's certainly possible. I follow some people back in Iowa and I've heard that there have been more and more schools that couldn't field teams. My alma mater which is a small school is strongly considering going to 8 man football. Of course that's not eliminating it but it's close. I find it hard to fathom that high school football will be gone in mine or any of our lifetimes. It may be scaled back somewhat but it will be around.

I was at my daughter's powder puff game last week and there was a lot of talk about how our boys team is about to crater. It's a good-sized HS, 2,000+ students. They're probably going to have to eliminate either the freshman or JV team next season, and there's some talk the whole program could be gone in four years. This was coming from guys who'd played for the HS team back in their youth. FWIW, the powder puff game gets more than 10x the crowd of the school's annual Thanksgiving game.

My college actually got rid of football almost two decades ago and nobody much blinked. I'm sure there's places where football will continue to thrive, but its footprint is going to shrink.

[Redsfaithful]

Nor should it have been flagged, even under today's rules.

He was sliding, so hitting him was against the rules.

I don't think it was malicious because it happened fast, but that's not an excuse, you still aren't allowed to hit a sliding QB.

[Sea Ray]

He was sliding, so hitting him was against the rules.

I don't think it was malicious because it happened fast, but that's not an excuse, you still aren't allowed to hit a sliding QB.

I think it is an excuse if the QB waits that long before going into a slide. A 300 lb lineman while going full speed can't pull up on a dime. I agree it's judgment call and that's my judgment and likely the judgment of the officials that day.

[Kingspoint]

But, it's not buyer beware. That's the point. The NFL has for decades been lying, hiding evidence, and putting out false health reports in order to make a buck at the expense of the lives and welfare of it's employees and their families. Now, it comes out that after they were caught red-handed, that they intend on continuing to give it's employees and future employees false information.

They had set aside $30M in order to later have an excuse they could point to that might justify their behavior both in court and out of court. They continue to be devious and unrepentant regarding their lack of concern over their employees' health.

The NFL's latest attempt to dissuade arguments against not participating in football at the grade school and high school levels (and this is what it's really about) shows that they will do whatever they can to stop information from reaching "the buyer". "Buyer beware" is the poster child slogan for those companies, governmental agencies and institutions wishing to hide information from it's users that could benefit it's users, but could hurt the company, goverment entity or institution.

I have to repeat this post to point out that the NFL can't be involved with determining the safety precautions, what information is given to players, absolutely they can't be involved in communication to anyone below the College level, and they need to be contributing money to research where they have zero say how the research is conducted. The same goes for U.S. Soccer, men and women, U.S. Boxing, U.S. Hockey, and other sports which have similar play at the government sanctioned youth level where repeated jostling of the brain occurs.

[kaldaniels]

You're not wrong. They had a play in the Bengals game on Sunday where a DB for the Browns got flagged for a hit on a defenseless receiver. It was the wrong call because the receiver wasn't defenseless. What should have been called was leading with the head and hitting head to head. The announcers said he led with the shoulder and hit him in the chest but it looked to me like he led with the head and hit him in the face mask which is head and neck area. We've seen over the past few weeks that players are either passing or not taking the concussion protocol test. We had something a few weeks ago where Russell Wilson got knocked for a loop and was sent off. He basically goes to the concussion protocol tent long enough to say hi and he's back on the field. They either need to take this concussion protocol seriously or just scrap it altogether and go back to how it used to be.

Yep that Wilson situation was a mockery of the whole system.

[Kingspoint]

The NFL still doesn't take this seriously. The fact that it's legal to lead with your helmet and hit someone in the head EVER is incredible.

Without a doubt.

[Chip R]

Yep that Wilson situation was a mockery of the whole system.

That is another problem right there. It's not just coaches, management and doctors that make it a mockery of the system. The players are complicit as well. Russell Wilson knows how important he is to his team. He knew that if he went in that tent to get examined they might find something that could keep him out of the game for more than a play or two. Of course you can't blame them but these things happen quite often. A player will get asked how he feels after getting knocked for a loop and most of the time they are going to lie and say they are fine. And more often than not the doctor and/or trainer will sign off on it. Players are under great pressure to perform. It's self-induced, it comes from the coaches, their peers, the fans and the media. But perhaps players wouldn't be so quick to shrug off concussion symptoms if in every contract there is a clause that states that they cannot sue or be a party to a lawsuit against the NFL or team doctors if they do not follow concussion protocol to the letter. Now if the doc gives them the old nod and a wink and sends the player back in, the player has done his due diligence.

[WrongVerb]

CTE may occur without concussions (http://www.bu.edu/today/2018/cte-caused-by-head-injuries/):


A new BU-led study published Thursday in the journal Brain suggests that chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) is caused by head injuries, not by concussions. The research explains why 20 percent of athletes who exhibited the early stages of the progressive brain illness postmortem never had a diagnosed concussion.

“It’s the hits to the head, not concussion, that trigger CTE,” says study coauthor Lee Goldstein, a School of Medicine associate professor of psychiatry, who also has an appointment at the College of Engineering.

[Kingspoint]

CTE may occur without concussions (http://www.bu.edu/today/2018/cte-caused-by-head-injuries/):

We already knew this. The NFL already knew this year's ago. It's why the NFL created this buzzword, "concussion", in order to mask the real reason for the causes of CTE. It's just more of the same, look-at-the-right-hand-while-the-left-hand-does-something-else shenanigans. The "concussion protocol" is a sham to divert everyone away from the real issue: repeated knocks of the brain against the cranium which happens in every youth soccer game whenever the ball is headed.

Neurologists and other experts testified before a congressional panel and gave evidence of this month's ago. Football has got to go for all under-18 leagues sponsored by any government agency. It's not If, but when it happens.

It's crazy for anyone to let their child play soccer where there's heading of the ball or any form of tackle football or hockey of any type.

Can't get enough reports about this out there to counter the lies that the NFL has been paying doctors to publish for decades.

[Kingspoint]

I truly think that in the next 20 years, football will be more like flag football than what it was 5-10 years ago. People rhetorically say it's flag football now but they are still hitting hard out there. I know these kids don't care about the risks when they sign up for football but I know they didn't sign up for dying. Can this society continue to endorse a sport where even if you never get a concussion, you could wind up with Alzheimers or dementia or ALS when you are in your 50s. One kid dying because of a head injury is one kid too many.

Worth reposting.

[Sea Ray]

The sport will continue, it'll always be dangerous and there will always be guys willing to take that risk. It's not that complicated.

[Kingspoint]

The sport will continue, it'll always be dangerous and there will always be guys willing to take that risk. It's not that complicated.

You're completely missing the point and it's this attitude why the NFL, High Schools, Grade Schools and other organizations are allowed to continue to get away with destroying the brains of the youth of America through unchecked lies, ignorance and denial.

[Sea Ray]

You're completely missing the point and it's this attitude why the NFL, High Schools, Grade Schools and other organizations are allowed to continue to get away with destroying the brains of the youth of America through unchecked lies, ignorance and denial.

I get your point but that doesn't change the reality of it.

[Redsfaithful]

I couldn't get through this, every concussion that went through the protocol in the NFL this year:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r51aLlwS7w4

[KoryMac5]

Another sad tale about the dangers of playing football and its aftermath...

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/02/opinion/sunday/nfl-cte-brain-damage.html?smid=tw-share

[cumberlandreds]

State of Maryland to introduce bill to prohibit tackle football to anyone under 14. This could be the first step on the long road to seeing football as we know going away.


https://wtop.com/maryland/2018/02/maryland-to-introduce-bill-to-ban-tackle-football-under-age-14/

[Sea Ray]

State of Maryland to introduce bill to prohibit tackle football to anyone under 14. This could be the first step on the long road to seeing football as we know going away.


https://wtop.com/maryland/2018/02/maryland-to-introduce-bill-to-ban-tackle-football-under-age-14/

That's an easy one. Ban soccer <14 and then I'll pay attention.

[Redsfaithful]

State of Maryland to introduce bill to prohibit tackle football to anyone under 14. This could be the first step on the long road to seeing football as we know going away.


https://wtop.com/maryland/2018/02/maryland-to-introduce-bill-to-ban-tackle-football-under-age-14/

Smart, there's zero reason for it before high school, no matter how you feel about head injuries.

[RedTeamGo!]

That's an easy one. Ban soccer <14 and then I'll pay attention.

It’s not ban soccer before 14, it’s ban heading the ball before 14. Which is the main root of head issues from soccer.

You just can’t avoid it with tackle football. It’s the nature of the game.

It’s funny, my dad would not let me play football until high school. I always thought he was a wuss and crazy, now I look back and am grateful he did what he did. I guess he knew the truth well before most of the public. Nowadays I have a son and there’s no way he’s playing football any time soon.

[RedTeamGo!]

Smart, there's zero reason for it before high school, no matter how you feel about head injuries.

I was listening to local sports radio recently and the hosts (I think it was A to Z podcast) were talking about CTE and they got on the subject of CTE and youth football. Andre Knott grew up in Akron area and started talking about the “national championship” going on at the HoF in Canton for under 12 year olds. He said he had been to it and it was just creepy. All these parents freaking out because they truly believe some made up national championship tourney in Canton, OH is going to mean anything for their kids and is totally worth the brain injuries they are putting their kids at risk to while their brains are in key development stages.

Folks argue these kids are learning skills to play in college and pro, but it’s pretty much BS. The kids that make it to even D1 are complete freaks of nature. The vast majority of kids getting their brains beaten it when they are 11 years old won’t sniff a college scholarship, not to mention the NFL. They are simply getting their brains beaten in because of delusion.

I remember a few years ago a colleague of mine from Oklahoma. His son was a junior in high school. His kid was an OK player. This guy would go on and on about how he would send his kid to all these expensive QB camps and how he was just blowing the coaches at these camps away. He was convinced his son was the next Johnny Manziel (without the drug problem). He said to keep my eye out for his kid to get a big time scholarship offer. He was cautiously optimistic it would be from an SEC school but would be ok with a Big 12 school. So I did and this kid never even made it on a recruiting website. Now, I’m not making fun of the kid or his dad, but holy smokes the delusion. And I wanted to scream at this guy when he said the bit about the coaches loving his son “BRUH, they are blown away by how much money you are giving them.”

Anyways, I just find the whole youth football thing shady as hell. There’s no reason we can’t have a system where kids learn how to play at high school level.

[Redsfaithful]

The kids that make it to even D1 are complete freaks of nature.

This is what I always say in this discussion. It's kind of a real problem that most parents don't understand the difference between these athletes and the average kid, which leads to guys like the one in your post getting fleeced.

It's actually part of the American mythology right? That everyone has a chance if you work hard.

You can tell an elite athlete by age 7. I've seen it. It's different and it jumps out at you. The elite can start football as late as they want and they'll be fine.

Most people are really, really ignorant about sports. They think it's about hustle, hard work, and dedication, and yeah, sure, that's all good and the guys in the NFL all have that to excess, but it's really about size, speed, and strength.

Most people don't have anything close to elite speed. And then most of the people with elite speed don't have anywhere near the size needed.

But parents think if they put their 5 year old in a helmet they are on the path to a college scholarship. And the main result is the kid gets their brain rattled for 12 years and nothing to show for it.

[alwaysawarrior]

Sadly the youth sports culture as a whole is ridiculous. I was told how far behind my daughter was in softball last year because she had never played before.......She was in kindergarten. But the delusion of parents is never ending.

My son is five and won't be going anywhere near football, I probably won't ever allow it, but definitely no time soon.

[M2]

Sadly the youth sports culture as a whole is ridiculous. I was told how far behind my daughter was in softball last year because she had never played before.......She was in kindergarten. But the delusion of parents is never ending.

That is nuts. On the bright side, you've got top-shelf material for a story you can tell in mixed company for the rest of your life.

[Chip R]

State of Maryland to introduce bill to prohibit tackle football to anyone under 14. This could be the first step on the long road to seeing football as we know going away.


https://wtop.com/maryland/2018/02/maryland-to-introduce-bill-to-ban-tackle-football-under-age-14/

I thought I posted this yesterday but I guess it didn't take.

I wonder if kids from states who have the ban would fall behind students from states who don't. Also, aren't the 14 and under leagues done outside school jurisdiction - other than junior high schools?

[M2]

Also, aren't the 14 and under leagues done outside school jurisdiction - other than junior high schools?

Generally it's stuff like Pop Warner leagues. Where cities/towns/states can take action is to ban organized U-14 tackle football on public fields.

[Chip R]

Generally it's stuff like Pop Warner leagues. Where cities/towns/states can take action is to ban organized U-14 tackle football on public fields.

I have a hard time seeing that happen in football-mad communities.

[RedTeamGo!]

I have a hard time seeing that happen in football-mad communities.

The key word is “tackle”

For U-14 kids you could have those 7 on 7 games.

[Boston Red]

You can tell an elite athlete by age 7. I've seen it.

I don't agree with this at all. A lot of kids really don't develop that athleticism until they hit puberty. And a lot of the kids who are absolute freaks early on just turn out to be big for their age or faster developing.

[M2]

I have a hard time seeing that happen in football-mad communities.

Oh, it won't happen in those communities. There's definitely going to be a divide on this.

[Boston Red]

I wholly agree that high school is a perfectly fine time to start playing tackle football. Flag is just as good until people get old enough to start lifting weights anyway. And that's high school.

[Redsfaithful]

I don't agree with this at all. A lot of kids really don't develop that athleticism until they hit puberty. And a lot of the kids who are absolute freaks early on just turn out to be big for their age or faster developing.

There are exceptions to everything, but I just disagree when you're talking about NFL level talent vs. the average kid. It's not the same as the kids who are just bigger or faster developing, I know what that looks like also.

There are late bloomers that end up being very good athletes, of course, but that's not what I'm talking about.

[puca]

I wholly agree that high school is a perfectly fine time to start playing tackle football. Flag is just as good until people get old enough to start lifting weights anyway. And that's high school.

There are two schools of thoughts on this. If you teach kids to block, tackle and run without using their heads as battering rams before they have the mass to create significant damage, then they are better prepared when puberty hits. I had this argument when hockey started banning checking from the younger levels, although I think there is a better argument that hockey without checking directly leads to kids skating with the puck with their heads down (which causes serious problems as they get older and checking is allowed).

That said, if you ask me tackle football will eventually be even removed from public high schools. If it turns out that the brains of high school football players start being tested and show CTE damage (and I think that is probable) there is no way public schools will be able to sanction it.

[M2]

There are two schools of thoughts on this. If you teach kids to block, tackle and run without using their heads as battering rams before they have the mass to create significant damage, then they are better prepared when puberty hits. I had this argument when hockey started banning checking from the younger levels, although I think there is a better argument that hockey without checking directly leads to kids skating with the puck with their heads down (which causes serious problems as they get older and checking is allowed).

I heard a similar argument about teaching youth players the "right" way to head a ball. My counter was there's no right way to have your brain rattle around in your head. I taught them to take a step back and play it off their chests.

[WrongVerb]

There are two schools of thoughts on this. If you teach kids to block, tackle and run without using their heads as battering rams before they have the mass to create significant damage, then they are better prepared when puberty hits. I had this argument when hockey started banning checking from the younger levels, although I think there is a better argument that hockey without checking directly leads to kids skating with the puck with their heads down (which causes serious problems as they get older and checking is allowed).

That said, if you ask me tackle football will eventually be even removed from public high schools. If it turns out that the brains of high school football players start being tested and show CTE damage (and I think that is probable) there is no way public schools will be able to sanction it.

My middle school football coach was also our gym teacher. His assistant was a social studies teacher. Do you think either was equipped to teach proper tackling technique?

[Boston Red]

My middle school football coach was also our gym teacher. His assistant was a social studies teacher. Do you think either was equipped to teach proper tackling technique?

They'd be as likely as anyone. Those are your typical football coach professions.

[WrongVerb]

They'd be as likely as anyone. Those are your typical football coach professions.

I'm not sure..looking back, it seems to me that their qualifications for coaching were: "available." Maybe others have had better experiences, but if mine was anything close to ordinary, and I suspect it was, most kids aren't getting much tackling instruction at all.

[M2]

Proper tackling technique will get you concussed just as easily as improper tackling technique. No matter how good you are about getting you shoulder into the runner, your head is still right next to your shoulder.

[Boston Red]

I'm not sure..looking back, it seems to me that their qualifications for coaching were: "available." Maybe others have had better experiences, but if mine was anything close to ordinary, and I suspect it was, most kids aren't getting much tackling instruction at all.

I think coaching is generally bad for most youth sports, because coaches are mostly voluntary. But PE teacher and history teacher are probably slightly more likely to provide good instruction compared to the next two most likely coaches: assembly line worker and insurance salesman.

[redsfan30]

My middle school football coach was also our gym teacher. His assistant was a social studies teacher. Do you think either was equipped to teach proper tackling technique?

At the high school level, especially at "football" schools, the head coach is often coach first, teacher second and as pointed out, gym is the typical class taught by these coaches. A high school gym teacher is essentially a paid babysitter. At said "football" schools, they are not hiring the equivalent of a parent volunteer. They're bringing in guys who played collegiately or higher who have good to great football resumes. They just happen to have a teaching certificates to go along with it.

Good programs include all levels of football in a town, from Friday Night Lights all the way down to flag. In these programs, the head coach essentially coaches his other coaches all the way down and stays hands on with the entire operation. If you are lucky enough to get a head high school coach who knows what he's doing, the trickle down in safety and competitiveness is tangible.

When you get into a situation where all levels (high school, junior high, pee wee, flag, ect) are all operating independently of each other, the problems that you outline can really show themselves.

[RedTeamGo!]

I'm not sure..looking back, it seems to me that their qualifications for coaching were: "available." Maybe others have had better experiences, but if mine was anything close to ordinary, and I suspect it was, most kids aren't getting much tackling instruction at all.

lol, I remember one time in PRACTICE one of my friends pulled as a guard and smoked me right in the head with the crown of his helmet. The kind of hit a player would be kicked out of a college game immediately for nowadays. The coach, and we are talking at a pretty well respected D1 (at the time) football program in Ohio, stopped practice to scream “EXCELLENT HIT! That’s what I’m talking about! This is how you play the game of football, boys!!”

You’re probably thinking this was 1972. Wrong. It was 2001.

This whole “proper tackling technique” is hogwash. It’s a distraction.

[RedsBaron]

As some people know, Teddy Roosevelt helped implement changes to football more than a century ago in response to the injuries and violence of the game, and others have cited that example as support for new changes to the game, such as prohibiting lineman from taking a three point stance before the ball is snapped.
That might help, but I wonder if anything can stop the number of head injuries and the CTE in the game. In the AFC championship game Gronk was knocked out of the game because of a helmet-to-helmet hit, and in the Super Bowl New England lost Brandin Cooks early in the game due to another helmet-to-helmet hit.
If it becomes general knowledge that players are routinely suffering brain injuries playing the game, not only will and should this result in fewer parents allowing their sons to play the game-how long before fans turn away from the spectacle, knowing what it does to the participants?

[RedsBaron]

I also wonder how much "proper tackling technique" can help to prevent injuries.
15 plus years ago I represented a sporting good store named as a defendant in a lawsuit filed after a high school player was left paralyzed from the neck down after making a tackle. I learned a good bit in that case about the limitations in attempting to protect a player through better helmet design.
I can also recall in that a case a discussion I had with a well known coach whom we were considering retaining as an expert. From my review of the game film it appeared to me that the plaintiff football player had led with his head and hit the ball carrier with his helmet. When the coach looked at the film I was expecting him to say that the ball carrier was tacked improperly. To my surprise the coach immediately exclaimed that it was a good tackle, made exactly the way he would teach his own players.

[M2]

I also wonder how much "proper tackling technique" can help to prevent injuries.
15 plus years ago I represented a sporting good store named as a defendant in a lawsuit filed after a high school player was left paralyzed from the neck down after making a tackle. I learned a good bit in that case about the limitations in attempting to protect a player through better helmet design.
I can also recall in that a case a discussion I had with a well known coach whom we were considering retaining as an expert. From my review of the game film it appeared to me that the plaintiff football player had led with his head and hit the ball carrier with his helmet. When the coach looked at the film I was expecting him to say that the ball carrier was tacked improperly. To my surprise the coach immediately exclaimed that it was a good tackle, made exactly the way he would teach his own players.

I think everyone who ever played football has been told you've got to stick your head in to make a proper tackle. The idea is to lead with your head and get it just to their side so you hit them clean with the shoulder. Problem is, you can't get it right 100% of the time when you're aiming at a moving target.

[Chip R]

I think everyone who ever played football has been told you've got to stick your head in to make a proper tackle. The idea is to lead with your head and get it just to their side so you hit them clean with the shoulder. Problem is, you can't get it right 100% of the time when you're aiming at a moving target.

Very true. From looking at the replays of the Cooks hit in the Super Bowl it looks like the Eagles player was leading with his shoulder but Cooks ducked - probably to brace himself for the hit coming - and got nailed in the head. Then it looks like a dirty play but the tackler didn't have any intention of hitting him in the head. Also, the officials don't have the benefit of hi-def instant replay that can be slowed down frame by frame. They have to trust their knowledge and instincts to make these calls on whether it's a dirty play or not. And different officials will have different standards on what is dirty and what isn't.

[Sea Ray]

Interesting:


MADIEU WILLIAMS, EX-BENGAL, is an intern in the office of Maryland state delegate Terri Hill. He has co-authored a bill that would ban tackle football for kids under 14. Great idea, from a thoughtful guy who was always understood he wouldn’t be playing the game forever.

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/columnists/paul-daugherty/2018/02/20/paul-daugherty-speeding-up-mlb-games-how-and-necessary/354355002/

[KoryMac5]

Interesting:



https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/columnists/paul-daugherty/2018/02/20/paul-daugherty-speeding-up-mlb-games-how-and-necessary/354355002/

I like the idea as well. Watched Friday Night Tykes a few times on Bravo and to see how many concussions those kids would get during the season was crazy. Take the time to work on basics, catching, throwing, blocking etc...then when they reach High School they have a good understanding of how to play the game and play it under control.

[Chip R]

Former tOSU and Arizona Cardinals RB Beanie Wells says he is being treated for a traumatic brain injury he believes was caused by football.

https://www.upi.com/https:/www.upi.com/Sports_News/NFL/2018/03/05/Ex-NFL-RB-Beanie-Wells-being-treated-for-traumatic-brain-injury/2761520281618/

[WrongVerb]

A few years ago pee wee football participation was down. Now this...

The Friday night lights start to dim on high school football (https://www.nbcnews.com/health/kids-health/friday-night-lights-start-dim-high-school-football-n902886):


New numbers show a decline in participation in high school football across the country, and a dimmer future even in the state where the Friday night lights burn brightest — Texas.

While high schoolers playing organized sports climbed to almost 8 million in the past school year, those joining football squads continued to steadily decline, according to data released today by the National Federation of State High School Associations. Football participation peaked in American high schools in the 2009-2010 school year at 1.1 million players. That was less than two years after stories first emerged about the tragic toll of concussions in the sport.


Since then, the number of kids playing high school football has fallen 7 percent, and the decline has accelerated during the past two years. During the school year ending in spring 2018, participation fell in 40 states.

[Kingspoint]

A few years ago pee wee football participation was down. Now this...

The Friday night lights start to dim on high school football (https://www.nbcnews.com/health/kids-health/friday-night-lights-start-dim-high-school-football-n902886):

Works for me. I'd like to see tackle football completely disappear from the High School level and below.

[Sea Ray]

The article mentions Texas like there's been a significant drop. I found the article's numbers confusing in regards to Texas:


In Texas, the number of kids playing high school football has fallen 2 percent since its peak in the 2010-2011 school year.

OK, that's a very modest drop, but still a drop...but then I read this further along:


In Texas, the number of kids playing also increased slightly in the last two school years — but less than 1 percent, and that's in a state where total high school enrollment has grown an average of nearly 2 percent a year for the past 30 years, and is now growing faster than all but four other states.

So it doesn't sound like it's dropping much in Texas and if it is, the drop has ended and it's increasing again.

What the article didn't get into is the number of schools that have disbanded their teams due to injuries and the high cost. That would paint a different picture than kids individually deciding not to play due to injury risk.

https://www.apnews.com/66e699491a3b478293620c1e5069dc9e

[Redsfaithful]

A 7% drop is much smaller than I'd have expected. I guess parents still aren't really concerned.

[Sea Ray]

At the turn of the century football was in trouble because it was too dangerous. People were literally dying because of it.

https://paleofuture.gizmodo.com/19-football-players-died-in-1905-but-calls-for-reform-1277528900

Eventually rules were changed, equipment improved and the sport continued. I believe the same thing will happen now. The game might change. Hopefully they won't ruin it but it sure won't end

[Redsfaithful]

At the turn of the century football was in trouble because it was too dangerous. People were literally dying because of it.

https://paleofuture.gizmodo.com/19-football-players-died-in-1905-but-calls-for-reform-1277528900

Eventually rules were changed, equipment improved and the sport continued. I believe the same thing will happen now. The game might change. Hopefully they won't ruin it but it sure won't end

I hope it's possible. Not sure you can keep a brain from hitting the skull in a collision, but I'm not a scientist or doctor.

I also wish we could get some data on what happens if you only play for a few years. I am wondering if a brain can heal if you play a couple of years of varsity high school football against mostly normal sized kids and then stop playing.

My oldest has played in the flag program that runs here from K-4th grade and has had some success, and he's football crazy. I've already told him he's not playing in junior high, but I don't really know what we'll do when he gets to high school.

[Sea Ray]

I don't think you'll ever be able to make the game 100% safe. Players will have to accept a certain amount of risk to play it.

[Redsfaithful]

I don't think you'll ever be able to make the game 100% safe. Players will have to accept a certain amount of risk to play it.

Of course, and if it were just broken bones, etc. I'd have no problem with him playing. Routine brain trauma is something different.

[Kingspoint]

A 7% drop is much smaller than I'd have expected. I guess parents still aren't really concerned.

The Kneeling controversy serves the NFL well so people won't talk about CTE.

[Chip R]

The Kneeling controversy serves the NFL well so people won't talk about CTE.

Salient point.

[traderumor]

I went through a "no football" phase as a knee jerk reaction to the concussion data. I ended up backing off as I realized it would be difficult to be consistent with the "too risky" reason. Where would I draw that line? Would I not let them out of my sight so no one ends up pregnant? No license for them because teen drivers are high risk drivers. No amusement parks, people have died on those rides, if they didn't die in a vehicle en route to the amusement park.

Also, athletics all have significant risks. Football is not the only contact sport. I had two lacrosse players, and they both took some nasty hits from head hunters. Headers in soccer are now known to be a risk for head trauma. Basketball and getting undercut? Hockey? Self-evident. Baseball and the bean ball or liner back through the box. Heck my daughter is playing volleyball, and some spikes I've seen could do some harm to a head, and they have no protection. Unless your sticking to badmitton, tennis, synchronized swimming, or just saying no to all athletics, zeroing in on football is a bit like anti-smoking focus...because that is the only health risk people ingest their bodies with.

I now have a senior HS football player, his first season was freshman year. There is some concussion risk in HS football, but the speed of the game greatly reduces that risk. The concussions my kids have had, well one kid has had a couple, and they have been accidents around the home, fell on a sidewalk and banged her head, and banged her head on a wall in her home too hard. She should wear a helmet at all times, lol.

[Redsfaithful]

Not saying I disagree with points there TR, but my kids do play tennis, for just this reason. And I'd be 100% fine if they never drove a car in their lives.

I think when you're deep inside of something it's really easy to forget how risky day to day things really are. Driving is routine and so we don't think about 50k dead a year, and more maimed. I can't remember where but I remember reading someone who pointed out that you could dramatically lower both of those stats if we all wore five point harness seat belts and helmets when we drove.

That idea is laughable right? Who would do that? And yet, it would make many deadly crashes survivable.

I know that the human brain is bad at judging risk, and so what I mostly try to think about are situations that can have catastrophic end results and yet are easily avoidable. Football seems like one of those to me, but we'll probably let him decide for himself nonetheless. Still have a few years yet though.

[Kingspoint]

Again, the NFL has done a great job in getting people to believe you get CTE (or there's no proof you get CTE thanks to their unscrupulous paid physicians who will say anything for a buck) from concussions.

Concussions have nothing to do with the cause of CTE in football-related cases. It's the repeated launching of the brain against the cranium that leds to CTE, and someone who plays 4 years of High School football will experience this more than 1000 times, especially if he's a Lineman on either side of the ball, or a runningback who gets used a lot.

The idea of your son, basically banging his head against a brick wall, sanctioned by parents, rooted on by parents, praised by the school system, paid for by the government, seems ludicrous, archaic, and flat out sickening to fathom.

[Redsfaithful]

especially if he's a Lineman on either side of the ball, or a runningback who gets used a lot.

This is something else I've very preliminarily discussed with him, if he does decide to play he's only playing if he can cut it at certain positions that aren't getting hit every play.

[Kingspoint]

This is something else I've very preliminarily discussed with him, if he does decide to play he's only playing if he can cut it at certain positions that aren't getting hit every play.
A Wide Receiver is going to have 1/5 to 1/10 the number of brain to skull jarrings that a Lineman or heavily used RB gets, but he'll get more concussions than the Lineman. A CB really isn't in on that many plays, either. Nor is a FS.

I look at Football like boxing (or the use of the head in soccer). Anyone has the right at any age to be paid to do something, but Minors should be protected by the State from Adults who are either ignorant to their safety or are willing to abuse them for their own betterment (see any University that makes money off of their athletes). But to do it for free at a government institution or a private institution makes no sense because of the damge that gets done. The information is available now to not be ignorant about its dangers that we simply didn't have access to 10 years ago. Minors, even with adult consent, as adults can be irresponsible as heck when it concerns the health and well-being of their own children, should not be using their heads in soccer, or playing tackle football. The damage is not disputable no matter how many millions the NFL pays to get false information out there to the contrary.

[traderumor]

A Wide Receiver is going to have 1/5 to 1/10 the number of brain to skull jarrings that a Lineman or heavily used RB gets, but he'll get more concussions than the Lineman. A CB really isn't in on that many plays, either. Nor is a FS.

I look at Football like boxing (or the use of the head in soccer). Anyone has the right at any age to be paid to do something, but Minors should be protected by the State from Adults who are either ignorant to their safety or are willing to abuse them for their own betterment (see any University that makes money off of their athletes). But to do it for free at a government institution or a private institution makes no sense because of the damge that gets done. The information is available now to not be ignorant about its dangers that we simply didn't have access to 10 years ago. Minors, even with adult consent, as adults can be irresponsible as heck when it concerns the health and well-being of their own children, should not be using their heads in soccer, or playing tackle football. The damage is not disputable no matter how many millions the NFL pays to get false information out there to the contrary.

This is an extreme position and would prevent letting a child do most activities in life. I also think it is a bit much to effectively call parents irresponsible who encourage and allow their children to participate in youth sports that involve contact. The dichotomy of our culture is interesting. We are the most violent culture on the face of the earth, but then get all indignant when it comes to something like youth sports and injury potential. It is little wonder children are increasingly anxious and neurotic adults.

A question. How does one who digs so deeply into a sport reconcile the position stated above? "I love football...you are an ignorant parent if you let your kid play football."

[Kingspoint]

This is an extreme position and would prevent letting a child do most activities in life. I also think it is a bit much to effectively call parents irresponsible who encourage and allow their children to participate in youth sports that involve contact. The dichotomy of our culture is interesting. We are the most violent culture on the face of the earth, but then get all indignant when it comes to something like youth sports and injury potential. It is little wonder children are increasingly anxious and neurotic adults.

A question. How does one who digs so deeply into a sport reconcile the position stated above? "I love football...you are an ignorant parent if you let your kid play football."

We're not talking broken bones here. Again, the research is there to not be ignorant about it. The people they put in charge of safety regarding children playing sports where CTE is a direct result of their participating in these sports are the same people who are ignorant about it's effects and deny the research that proves it. The insane are running the asylum. Check out any State's Director of Safety in sports, if they even have one, and you'll find that person to be a current football coach, a former football coach, but most definitely, someone who is not qualified to be in charge of Safety for High School sports.

[traderumor]

You did not respond to my question.

[Kingspoint]

From Rotoworld with Rotoworld comments:

Former Eagles and Bucs DE Daniel Te'o-Nesheim suffered from Grade 2 CTE prior to his death last October.

Te'o-Nesheim died after a night of heavy drinking, and it was revealed he had alcohol and pills in his system. Brain doctors believe Te'o-Nesheim suffered "approximately 100 concussions, all from contact sports, 10 with loss of consciousness." He was a third-round pick of the Eagles in 2010.

Source: Profootballtalk on NBC Sports

[Sea Ray]

Another sad case, Jamal Lewis

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2778321-jamal-lewis-making-most-of-post-nfl-life-and-preparing-for-darker-days-ahead?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial

I think RBs, particularly bruisers like Lewis, ought to retire early ala Barry Sanders and Robert Smith. Lewis is in sad shape and he's still in his 30s

[Kingspoint]

From Rotoworld w/ Rotoworld comments:

Family members of the late Vincent Jackson say the former NFL wideout suffered from CTE. Jackson, who was found deceased on Monday at 38 years old, suffered from chronic alcoholism, according to Hillsborough County Sheriff Chad Chronister. The sheriff added the Jackson's family members believe he struggled for years with symptoms of CTE, or brain degeneration likely caused by repeated head traumas -- an alarmingly common issue for ex-NFL players. Jackson had isolated himself in a hotel for a month before he was found dead. The league created a fund for former players who suffer from cognitive decline, a move criticized by many as inadequate.

SOURCE: ProFootballTalk.com

[Kingspoint]

From NBC Sports w/ NBC Sports comments:

The Titans are "continuing to monitor" Adam Humphries three months after he suffered a concussion against the Bengals. Titans general manager Jon Robinson was vague about Humphries' status after he returned for just one game following a frightening concussion on November 1 against the Bengals. “There’s nothing more important – we’ve said it a million times – than the health and the safety of our players. That was a pretty tough hit he took there,” Robinson said. “We’re just continuing to monitor and talk to the doctors and talk to Adam (Humphries), and make sure he’s back to normal and just kind of see how that goes.” Humphries, the team's slot receiver, will count for $9.47 million against the cap in 2021, making him a cut candidate. With Corey Davis, Jonnu Smith, MyCole Pruitt, Geoff Swaim, and Kalif Raymond scheduled to be free agents this offseason, A.J. Brown could be the only Tennessee pass catcher returning for the 2021 season.

SOURCE: TitansInsider.com

[Bob Sheed]

“There’s nothing more important – we’ve said it a million times – than the health and the safety of our players.

...but you gotta understand this is a business, and you can't win championships from the tub. We're letting you go. Best wishes."

[WrongVerb]

NFL pledges to halt ‘race-norming,’ review Black claims (https://apnews.com/article/pa-state-wire-race-and-ethnicity-health-nfl-sports-205b304c0c3724532d74fc54e58b4d1d)


The NFL on Wednesday pledged to halt the use of “race-norming” — which assumed Black players started out with lower cognitive function — in the $1 billion settlement of brain injury claims and review past scores for any potential race bias.

The practice made it harder for Black retirees to show a deficit and qualify for an award. The standards were created in the 1990s in hopes of offering more appropriate treatment to dementia patients, but critics faulted the way they were used to determine payouts in the NFL concussion case.

Wednesday’s announcement comes after a pair of Black players filed a civil rights lawsuit over the practice, medical experts raised concerns and a group of NFL families last month dropped 50,000 petitions at the federal courthouse in Philadelphia — where the lawsuit had been thrown out by the judge overseeing the settlement.

Senior U.S. District Judge Anita B. Brody later took the unusual step of asking for a report on the issue. Black retirees hope it will include a breakdown of the nearly $800 million in payouts so far by race. They fear the data will never come to light.

[Kingspoint]

Portland Timbers legend Jimmy Conway had Stage 4 CTE, study finds

Published: May. 16, 2023, 9:41 a.m.

By Ryan Clarke | The Oregonian/OregonLive

Portland Timbers legend Jimmy Conway, an influential figure in Portland soccer history, died in 2020 at age 73 after battling trauma-induced dementia. Now, three years later, a Boston University study released Tuesday diagnosed Conway and three other deceased former NASL players with the brain disease known as Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy (CTE). CTE is a degenerative brain disease found in some former athletes with a history of repeated concussions or other traumatic brain injuries. The study was conducted by a research team in Boston led by Dr. Ann McKee, who examined Conway’s brain post-mortem — currently the only way to diagnose the disease. “Soccer poses a clear risk for the development of CTE,” McKee said in a news release. “We’ve found CTE in soccer players, young and old, non-professional and professional. There needs to be greater emphasis on reducing or eliminating heading during soccer, as heading is a major source of concussions and the repetitive nonconcussive injuries that cause CTE.”

According to researchers, Conway’s wife, Noeleen, began noticing Conway’s struggles maintaining conversations beginning in his mid-50s. At 63, 10 years before his death, Conway went public with his diagnosis of dementia. CTE is highly prevalent in former American football players as well, and more widely discussed. Boston University researchers have identified CTE in the brains of 345 of 376 (91.7%) deceased NFL players studied. But headers and head-to-head collisions in soccer are major risk factors for the development of the disease. Researchers identified Stage 4 CTE in Conway and three other former NASL players: Jim Fryatt, Jimmy Gabriel, and Franny Pantuosco. “I am frustrated that American soccer organizations have, so far, refused to acknowledge that repeated heading in soccer can cause CTE,” Dr. Chris Nowinski, CEO of the Concussion Legacy Foundation, said in the release. “CTE is entirely preventable, and every day they don’t confront it, we give soccer players new cases of CTE. Considering how many children play between the ages of 11 and 18, when heading is allowed, this is simply unacceptable.”


Conway is in the Timbers’ ring of honor at Providence Park. Originally from Dublin, Ireland, he played 14 years of professional soccer in Ireland and England, including 11 seasons at Fulham FC, before joining the NASL Timbers in 1978. Conway became a fixture in the Portland soccer community after three seasons with the Timbers and two with their indoor team. He spent 28 years as director of coaching for the Oregon Youth Soccer Association, five seasons as the men’s soccer coach at Pacific University, and 11 seasons as the founding men’s soccer coach at Oregon State University. The Concussion Legacy Foundation has a HelpLine that “provides free, personalized support to patients and families battling concussion or suspected CTE symptoms,” the release said. Those interested in receiving assistance or support can go to CLFHelpline.org. Former soccer players interested in contributing to research efforts to prevent future cases of CTE can join the Concussion Legacy Foundation Research Registry, which allows former players to enroll in relevant studies or pledge to donate their brains if they so choose for additional research after their death.

-- Ryan Clarke, [email protected], Twitter: @RyanTClarke

[Sea Ray]

Portland Timbers legend Jimmy Conway had Stage 4 CTE, study finds

Published: May. 16, 2023, 9:41 a.m.

By Ryan Clarke | The Oregonian/OregonLive

Portland Timbers legend Jimmy Conway, an influential figure in Portland soccer history, died in 2020 at age 73 after battling trauma-induced dementia. Now, three years later, a Boston University study released Tuesday diagnosed Conway and three other deceased former NASL players with the brain disease known as Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy (CTE). CTE is a degenerative brain disease found in some former athletes with a history of repeated concussions or other traumatic brain injuries. The study was conducted by a research team in Boston led by Dr. Ann McKee, who examined Conway’s brain post-mortem — currently the only way to diagnose the disease. “Soccer poses a clear risk for the development of CTE,” McKee said in a news release. “We’ve found CTE in soccer players, young and old, non-professional and professional. There needs to be greater emphasis on reducing or eliminating heading during soccer, as heading is a major source of concussions and the repetitive nonconcussive injuries that cause CTE.”

According to researchers, Conway’s wife, Noeleen, began noticing Conway’s struggles maintaining conversations beginning in his mid-50s. At 63, 10 years before his death, Conway went public with his diagnosis of dementia. CTE is highly prevalent in former American football players as well, and more widely discussed. Boston University researchers have identified CTE in the brains of 345 of 376 (91.7%) deceased NFL players studied. But headers and head-to-head collisions in soccer are major risk factors for the development of the disease. Researchers identified Stage 4 CTE in Conway and three other former NASL players: Jim Fryatt, Jimmy Gabriel, and Franny Pantuosco. “I am frustrated that American soccer organizations have, so far, refused to acknowledge that repeated heading in soccer can cause CTE,” Dr. Chris Nowinski, CEO of the Concussion Legacy Foundation, said in the release. “CTE is entirely preventable, and every day they don’t confront it, we give soccer players new cases of CTE. Considering how many children play between the ages of 11 and 18, when heading is allowed, this is simply unacceptable.”


Conway is in the Timbers’ ring of honor at Providence Park. Originally from Dublin, Ireland, he played 14 years of professional soccer in Ireland and England, including 11 seasons at Fulham FC, before joining the NASL Timbers in 1978. Conway became a fixture in the Portland soccer community after three seasons with the Timbers and two with their indoor team. He spent 28 years as director of coaching for the Oregon Youth Soccer Association, five seasons as the men’s soccer coach at Pacific University, and 11 seasons as the founding men’s soccer coach at Oregon State University. The Concussion Legacy Foundation has a HelpLine that “provides free, personalized support to patients and families battling concussion or suspected CTE symptoms,” the release said. Those interested in receiving assistance or support can go to CLFHelpline.org. Former soccer players interested in contributing to research efforts to prevent future cases of CTE can join the Concussion Legacy Foundation Research Registry, which allows former players to enroll in relevant studies or pledge to donate their brains if they so choose for additional research after their death.

-- Ryan Clarke, [email protected], Twitter: @RyanTClarke

I'm not a soccer fan and never will but do you think they should wear some kind of helmet, maybe even a soft leather one like they used to in football? Are these concussions just coming from heading the ball or are there other issues with the head in playing soccer?

[Kingspoint]

I'm not a soccer fan and never will but do you think they should wear some kind of helmet, maybe even a soft leather one like they used to in football? Are these concussions just coming from heading the ball or are there other issues with the head in playing soccer?

No. It's proven that the type of helmet has no effect on limiting the damage resulting in CTE. Headers need to be banned for all Minors. It's never, ever been about the concussions. That's something that the NFL made up to try to divert knowledge from where the actual damage resulting in CTE comes from. It's when the brain bangs against the wall of the cranium. That's where the damage occurs. Those instances happen 1000 times for every concussion that occurs.

Helmets prevent cracked skulls from the outside, but do not limit any damage done to the brain on the inside.

[plantmanky]

No. It's proven that the type of helmet has no effect on limiting the damage resulting in CTE. Headers need to be banned for all Minors. It's never, ever been about the concussions. That's something that the NFL made up to try to divert knowledge from where the actual damage resulting in CTE comes from. It's when the brain bangs against the wall of the cranium. That's where the damage occurs. Those instances happen 1000 times for every concussion that occurs.

Helmets prevent cracked skulls from the outside, but do not limit any damage done to the brain on the inside.


Every time you sneeze or cough, your head hits the inside of your skull. Turning your head fast from one side to the other, same thing. Every fall, every jump, lots of every day activities cause your brain to hit the inside of your skull.

[Kingspoint]

Every time you sneeze or cough, your head hits the inside of your skull. Turning your head fast from one side to the other, same thing. Every fall, every jump, lots of every day activities cause your brain to hit the inside of your skull.

Miles per hour when the impact occurs is the difference.

If you are in any way trying to deny the impact headers have on CTE, then you are the problem.

[Slyder]

Most USSF soccer league has already banned it through the age of 12-13 years old and even then limit it to 30 minutes of heading practice. Most tournaments and travel teams that I know ban it until U12 division (so if a birth year 2012/2013 plays a 2011 team they might be allowed to head). Every tournament will have their own "interpretation". But I can only speak for what I see in West Virginia.

Where I, as a ref, have seen most of the concussions is from balls blasted hitting face, head to head collisions, or losing balance/being fouled and hitting the ground. Most of the concussions on a "regular header" are players who have had previous concussions. Other leagues and school teams have implemented 6 steps to return to play to try and allow proper recovery before they return to the game. No more "walk it off" like you hear from previous generations of professional athletes.

[bucksfan2]

Most USSF soccer league has already banned it through the age of 12-13 years old and even then limit it to 30 minutes of heading practice. Most tournaments and travel teams that I know ban it until U12 division (so if a birth year 2012/2013 plays a 2011 team they might be allowed to head). Every tournament will have their own "interpretation". But I can only speak for what I see in West Virginia.

Where I, as a ref, have seen most of the concussions is from balls blasted hitting face, head to head collisions, or losing balance/being fouled and hitting the ground. Most of the concussions on a "regular header" are players who have had previous concussions. Other leagues and school teams have implemented 6 steps to return to play to try and allow proper recovery before they return to the game. No more "walk it off" like you hear from previous generations of professional athletes.

I didn't play soccer past grade school but have coached my kids with my oldest being in the 5th grade. Head balling is illegal until 7th and 8th grade in SAY so I am not sure what you would call that U14? I don't really get all the U stuff. But anyway, there becomes a point in soccer where not being able to head ball the ball makes the game somewhat awkward. I am sure there is a good reason behind it, but you see girls (who I have coached) try to use their chest on a ball that is above their shoulders.