Serial

[BuckeyeRed27]

Anyone else following along? I just listened to episode 5 and should be caught up soon.

[Razor Shines]

I posted about it in the podcast thread last week and got nothing. Its very consuming.

[BuckeyeRed27]

I posted about it in the podcast thread last week and got nothing. Its very consuming.

Ah sorry missed that. I just started about 4 days ago. So addicting. You think he did it?

[Razor Shines]

Ah sorry missed that. I just started about 4 days ago. So addicting. You think he did it?

After episode 8, yes but no where near beyond a reasonable doubt. After episode 9, I have no idea.

[NebraskaRed]

I'm addicted to it. I started to listened to it about 2 weeks ago, now I've listened to every episode twice.

[BuckeyeRed27]

I just can't believe how awful his laywer was. There is no way any decent lawyer couldn't have presented enough reasonable doubt to keep him out of jail.

[Razor Shines]

I'm addicted to it. I started to listened to it about 2 weeks ago, now I've listened to every episode twice.

Yeah. I listened to them once and then got my wife hooked and listened to them with her. I also admit to losing a couple hours reading through the Serial sub-reddit.

[gilpdawg]

After episode 8, yes but no where near beyond a reasonable doubt. After episode 9, I have no idea.

That's where I am.

Can we cancel Thanksgiving so we can get an episode this week?

[gilpdawg]

I just can't believe how awful his laywer was. There is no way any decent lawyer couldn't have presented enough reasonable doubt to keep him out of jail.

If you were stepping out, that would cause a problem would it notttttttt?

[NebraskaRed]

If you were stepping out, that would cause a problem would it notttttttt?

That voice haunts me.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Ok I just caught up. I don't think he did it. My theory is it some how involves Jay and drugs. Hae got mixed up somehow, another person killed her and made Jay hang it on Adnan. I still don't know how a jury convicted him on the case that was presented.

[Razor Shines]

No way there was evidence to convict. Personally I'm leaning slightly toward Adnon being involved and Jay being waaaay more involved than he's admitting.

[NebraskaRed]

No way there was evidence to convict. Personally I'm leaning slightly toward Adnon being involved and Jay being waaaay more involved than he's admitting.

Same. There's no way I could convict him if I were on the jury, but I'm not sure he's innocent either. If Adnan was involved, my guess is that they did it together. I have no idea why, but that's the only scenario that would make sense at this point.

[dabvu2498]

I got caught up in my week of traveling. It's great in kind of an awful way. I'm enjoying it for sure.

And I think he's guilty as sin. I don't think it went down exactly like Jay did, but I think AS did it for sure.

[Razor Shines]

I got caught up in my week of traveling. It's great in kind of an awful way. I'm enjoying it for sure.

And I think he's guilty as sin. I don't think it went down exactly like Jay did, but I think AS did it for sure.

Yeah, but if you were on a jury, knowing what we currently know, could you convict him?

[dabvu2498]

Yeah, but if you were on a jury, knowing what we currently know, could you convict him?

Probably not of first degree, no, probably not.

The trial was six weeks long. We've heard about 6 hours of "testimony." The jury, who sat through 6 weeks of trial, deliberated 2 hours. I can't help but think we're being pointed in a direction by our narrator.

Do I think there's enough evidence that he was "in on it" in some way, beyond a reasonable doubt? Absolutely. And there's another bit of evidence that the jury wouldn't have known about and that Koenig hasn't revealed (yet), but it's available in current court filings and the legitimate news articles about this story that are making the rounds. (No. I won't spoil it here. :) )

[Razor Shines]

Send me a link dude and your inbox is full.

[dabvu2498]

Send me a link dude and your inbox is full.

My sent box was full!!!

Your link is sent.

[R_Webb18]

There's a slate podcast about the podcast. They did a podcast about stuff from the web from places like Reddit. There was a theory on why Jay might of done it himself but don't wanna spoil anything. I don't know if they plan on bringing it up but they might.

[dabvu2498]

Who listened today?

Jay got the greatest deal of any deal ever dealt.

Even if he told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, it's still quite stunning. I wonder if he snitched anyone else out as part of his agreement. You know, since he bragged about being the "criminal element of Woodlawn."

[Razor Shines]

Who listened today?

Jay got the greatest deal of any deal ever dealt.

Even if he told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, it's still quite stunning. I wonder if he snitched anyone else out as part of his agreement. You know, since he bragged about being the "criminal element of Woodlawn."

A free private attorney provided by the prosecutor and no jail time after being heavily involved in a murder. Why? They could have gotten what they needed from him without giving away the farm.

There are theories out there that the police already had found her car and staged the whole thing about Jay leading them to it. I don't buy that but they certainly brought that kind of questioning on themselves by giving him such a ridiculous deal.

[BuckeyeRed27]

The fact the prosecutor got him a pro bono lawyer is super shady.

[dabvu2498]

She got a mistrial over virtually nothing during the first trial. I can't fathom how she didn't get disbarred after she found that out. (Gutierrez, that is.) It was literally such a misappropriation of justice, that it might have been worth it.

The judge's logic for allowing Jay's testimony to stand was just slightly south of horrific also.

[pedro]

I love this podcast!

I'm not sure what I think. It seems to me that Adnon's lawyer sucked and was incredibly unlikable and that Jay's story is bull****. But I'm not convinced that his friend story that it happened in the library parking lot and that Adnon threatened Jay regarding Jenn makes more sense but why isn't that Jay's story? Still have last episode to listen to...

[NebraskaRed]

She got a mistrial over virtually nothing during the first trial. I can't fathom how she didn't get disbarred after she found that out. (Gutierrez, that is.) It was literally such a misappropriation of justice, that it might have been worth it.

The judge's logic for allowing Jay's testimony to stand was just slightly south of horrific also.

Her logic was, "Jay doesn't seem to know that this is inappropriate and that he's getting bought off, so we'll let it go."

Insane. Absolutely insane.

[WildcatFan]

I'm getting caught up on this podcast, too, and I have to echo everybody else that it's terrific. If you are enjoying this, take some time and watch "The Staircase" on YouTube (for free, in 8 45-minute installments) about the Michael Peterson trial. Similar premise and just as captivating.

[*BaseClogger*]

She got a mistrial over virtually nothing during the first trial. I can't fathom how she didn't get disbarred after she found that out. (Gutierrez, that is.) It was literally such a misappropriation of justice, that it might have been worth it.

Would you expand on this? I was hoping some of RZ's lawyers would chime in on this podcast. Thanks!

[dabvu2498]

Would you expand on this? I was hoping some of RZ's lawyers would chime in on this podcast. Thanks!

It's more of a Gutierrez-thing than a law thing. She clearly had a fondness for theatrics. After the fit she through in the first trial, I'm just surprised that they didn't have to haul her out of there in cuffs after the Jay-bombshell.

[Razor Shines]

So this thing really is gonna end with a whimper isn't it? Don't get me wrong I'm still fascinated by the show and I'll listen to whatever they do for season two but I think I'm guilty of needing to realize that this is real. It's not True Detective, it can't be nicely wrapped up. Sarah said at one point she didn't want to get the end of this and be like *shrug* "I don't know" but there's not really any other way for this to end.

[dabvu2498]

This week's episode was pretty worthless. I kinda wish they'd recorded it all ahead of time, so they wouldn't have to deal with the "distractions" that I'm sure they're getting now... Most of which seem to be leading down giant rabbit holes.

[NebraskaRed]

This week's episode was pretty worthless. I kinda wish they'd recorded it all ahead of time, so they wouldn't have to deal with the "distractions" that I'm sure they're getting now... Most of which seem to be leading down giant rabbit holes.

While it wasn't the best episode by any means, it was a necessary one. They had to acknowledge the huge amount of attention the podcast has received, and the dozens (hundreds?) of people that have contacted her about Adnan. And it answer a pretty big question a lot of people had: Why hasn't he talked more about Jay?

[Razor Shines]

While it wasn't the best episode by any means, it was a necessary one. They had to acknowledge the huge amount of attention the podcast has received, and the dozens (hundreds?) of people that have contacted her about Adnan. And it answer a pretty big question a lot of people had: Why hasn't he talked more about Jay?
I kind of agree with dab, I wish she had recorded them all ahead of time. Then you don't have to acknowledge the attention. This week almost seemed like she read straight from the reddit sub thread.

[NebraskaRed]

I kind of agree with dab, I wish she had recorded them all ahead of time. Then you don't have to acknowledge the attention. This week almost seemed like she read straight from the reddit sub thread.

I see what you're saying, but it is called Serial, and it is meant to be produced once a week as it goes on. Charles Dickens used to serialize his novels, and they were absolutely influenced by the public's reaction to each installment.

[dabvu2498]

Thing is, none of the reactions she's getting are actually worth anything. Either she can't substantiate them or it's "Adnan has it in him to do murder because he used to steal from the collection plate. But, oh yeah... So did I. And while we're at it, could you not use my real name or voice, please." And an expert that can't actually speak with the subject.

As great as her story-telling ability is, SK has wasted a lot of time on stuff that doesn't matter a bit and not gone down some avenues that could have produced some answers. (She had some talkative jury members that we barely heard from... If you really want to know why he was found guilty, dig deep into that hole. Because I'm fairly sure there would have been a pay phone somewhere within walking distance of that Best Buy.)

[Razor Shines]

Thing is, none of the reactions she's getting are actually worth anything. Either she can't substantiate them or it's "Adnan has it in him to do murder because he used to steal from the collection plate. But, oh yeah... So did I. And while we're at it, could you not use my real name or voice, please." And an expert that can't actually speak with the subject.

As great as her story-telling ability is, SK has wasted a lot of time on stuff that doesn't matter a bit and not gone down some avenues that could have produced some answers. (She had some talkative jury members that we barely heard from... If you really want to know why he was found guilty, dig deep into that hole. Because I'm fairly sure there would have been a pay phone somewhere within walking distance of that Best Buy.)

The thing that has always stuck with me about the pay phone is what Adnan said about it....which is nothing. He said something along the lines of "they say I killed her and then went into the Best Buy lobby and called Jay...." Maybe it's nothing but using one of the store phones always made more sense to me. If he had used a store phone maybe there would have been an employee that remembered seeing him but also maybe not.

[Big Red Smokey]

Just listened to the Finale. Not gonna spoil anything but it ended up about as I expected.

[dabvu2498]

I loved this, from Reddit: "Next time someone wrecks my theory, I'm just going to say 'Big picture, big picture.'"

[RedsManRick]

I can't stand listening to jurors. So many people are idiots. So are public attorneys as far as I can tell. Reasonable doubt should not be hard to argue, especially in a case like this. I served on an attempted murder trial one summer while in college that ended up being a hung jury because 3 of the jurors couldn't get past reasonable doubt in a case where one guy admitted to shooting the other one*. They thought reasonable doubt meant anything short of video, DNA, or a confession wasn't enough. Then you have a case like this where there are massive amounts of doubt and a guy goes away for the rest of his life. Crazy.

As for the case at hand, I think that Jay was involved in other shady business and that somebody he knew killed Hae while he was borrowing Adnan's car. The actual killer was a dangerous dude and threatened Jay's life if Jay didn't help him cover it up. Given that it was Adnan's car and Adnan's relationship with Hae, it was a no-brainer. The cops just wanted a conviction and saw Jay as their path to an easy conviction. In any event, I can't believe Adnan was found guilty. Even if you think he's the most likely killer, there's no way that the evidence crossed the line of reasonable doubt.

*Two drug dealers who lived a few blocks away from eac[I]h other in north Minneapolis had an ongoing beef. Guy #1 was driving his car down the road past Guy #2's house. Guy #2, sitting on his stoop, thought Guy #1 was driving too slowly and was going to pull a drive-by. So he shot first in "self-defense", firing 3 times and hitting Guy #1 one twice. Guy #1 gets hit in the hand (through the windshield) and in the back (through the back-door). Guy #2 claims that he was just trying to scare him, not kill him. I literally do the math during deliberations showing that Guy #2 took his time to carefully aim as the car slowly drove by (~2 seconds between each shot). Other jurors say that maybe he was just trying to scare him and refuse to convict.

[Razor Shines]

I loved this, from Reddit: "Next time someone wrecks my theory, I'm just going to say 'Big picture, big picture.'"

Right. I'm sorry, Adnan admits he was with Jay a lot of that day. That Jay knew where the car was needs an explanation if you think Adnan is innocent.

[Razor Shines]

As to Rick's post, I agree that I would still have doubt and I don't think that I could find him guilty. At the same I just don't buy a conspiracy and cover up.

[dabvu2498]

I have a hard time questioning a jury based on 12 podcasts. Let's be honest... Koenig and staff spent more man-hours chasing down the allegedly location of a pay-phone than 12 people spent in a jury box.

Also, Rick, there are tons of great PD's. If you want a media example, watch "Murder on a Sunday Morning." That dude is a lawyer. (Plus it'll give you a nice, tingly feeling about cops and prosecutors.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNdjDrETsTQ

[dabvu2498]

Right. I'm sorry, Adnan admits he was with Jay a lot of that day. That Jay knew where the car was needs an explanation if you think Adnan is innocent.

She "wins" if she gets them to do the DNA tests, though. I wonder how low the bar is for her to achieve that.

[dabvu2498]

8322

[BuckeyeRed27]

I thought it was a pretty solid wrap up episode. I wonder if anything big in the case happens if they will do an update or something.

I agree with her assesement that everyone is lying. The story as told is not what happened.

[Caveat Emperor]

I can't stand listening to jurors. So many people are idiots. So are public attorneys as far as I can tell. Reasonable doubt should not be hard to argue, especially in a case like this. I served on an attempted murder trial one summer while in college that ended up being a hung jury because 3 of the jurors couldn't get past reasonable doubt in a case where one guy admitted to shooting the other one*. They thought reasonable doubt meant anything short of video, DNA, or a confession wasn't enough. Then you have a case like this where there are massive amounts of doubt and a guy goes away for the rest of his life. Crazy.

As for the case at hand, I think that Jay was involved in other shady business and that somebody he knew killed Hae while he was borrowing Adnan's car. The actual killer was a dangerous dude and threatened Jay's life if Jay didn't help him cover it up. Given that it was Adnan's car and Adnan's relationship with Hae, it was a no-brainer. The cops just wanted a conviction and saw Jay as their path to an easy conviction. In any event, I can't believe Adnan was found guilty. Even if you think he's the most likely killer, there's no way that the evidence crossed the line of reasonable doubt.

*Two drug dealers who lived a few blocks away from eac[I]h other in north Minneapolis had an ongoing beef. Guy #1 was driving his car down the road past Guy #2's house. Guy #2, sitting on his stoop, thought Guy #1 was driving too slowly and was going to pull a drive-by. So he shot first in "self-defense", firing 3 times and hitting Guy #1 one twice. Guy #1 gets hit in the hand (through the windshield) and in the back (through the back-door). Guy #2 claims that he was just trying to scare him, not kill him. I literally do the math during deliberations showing that Guy #2 took his time to carefully aim as the car slowly drove by (~2 seconds between each shot). Other jurors say that maybe he was just trying to scare him and refuse to convict.

I have sympathy for jurors in this regard -- very few people are excited by jury duty, and the method by which evidence is presented to them in a trial is just horrendously backwards. Thanks to the rules of evidence, jurors are forced to hear cases in disjointed pieces and often don't get the "full" story on a case. It's tough to keep testimony straight for days and days, especially when no transcripts are provided at the end.

And you're wrong on public attorneys. There are tons of very well respected attorneys who take appointments as "public defenders," and nowadays it's rare to have homicide cases defended by inexperienced/incompetent counsel.

[dabvu2498]

So Jay Wilds gave an interview today... https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/29/exclusive-interview-jay-wilds-star-witness-adnan-syed-serial-case-pt-1/

[Razor Shines]

I know you posted it Dab. On the main page I can see your post as the most recent post but when I click on the thread CE's post is the last post. Weird. Jay's explanation in that interview makes way more sense than how it was presented at trial.

[dabvu2498]

I know you posted it Dab. On the main page I can see your post as the most recent post but when I click on the thread CE's post is the last post. Weird. Jay's explanation in that interview makes way more sense than how it was presented at trial.

I had the same problem for a bit, but I guess Boss-Hog fixed it!!!

Anyways, yes, I agree. It seems way more plausible now, but I still don't think he's telling the whole truth. I don't love his testimony, and I think if anything, it proves that Adnan did not truly "premeditate" Hae's death. I'd like to go back and check his "new" sequence of events against some of the other evidence and testimony.

[Razor Shines]

I had the same problem for a bit, but I guess Boss-Hog fixed it!!!

Anyways, yes, I agree. It seems way more plausible now, but I still don't think he's telling the whole truth. I don't love his testimony, and I think if anything, it proves that Adnan did not truly "premeditate" Hae's death. I'd like to go back and check his "new" sequence of events against some of the other evidence and testimony.

Yeah. I'm sure someone who has the time will make us a nice chart before too long.

[Razor Shines]

http://www.avclub.com/article/serial-theme-song-gets-mashed-notorious-big-predic-213157?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=ShareTools&utm_campaign=default

This is pretty good.

[dabvu2498]

Yeah. I'm sure someone who has the time will make us a nice chart before too long.

After reading the reddit criticisms, my opinion has totally changed. Jay's lying as much or more now than he did 15 years ago. I'm not sure I'm convinced Adnan is innocent yet... But...

[dabvu2498]

http://www.avclub.com/article/serial-theme-song-gets-mashed-notorious-big-predic-213157?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=ShareTools&utm_campaign=default

This is pretty good.

Have you heard the Mail Kimp remix???

[Razor Shines]

Have you heard the Mail Kimp remix???

Yes. It's great.

I haven't hit reddit since this interview came out, I'm kinda afraid to because I know that's at least 2 hours. I guess the consensus would be that Jay has now had all kinds of time to concoct a story that makes more sense and makes him look better?

[dabvu2498]

Yes. It's great.

I haven't hit reddit since this interview came out, I'm kinda afraid to because I know that's at least 2 hours. I guess the consensus would be that Jay has now had all kinds of time to concoct a story that makes more sense and makes him look better?

No. It runs a bit deeper than that. I think the kid is probably a "pathological liar," if there is such a thing. His former co-worker was correct. He makes stuff up to make himself look "tough" and/or important. One example of what was brought up on reddit... If he was such a big-time drug dealer and was using his grandmother's home as a storehouse, why the hell did they drive around all afternoon/evening trying to score some pot?

[Razor Shines]

No. It runs a bit deeper than that. I think the kid is probably a "pathological liar," if there is such a thing. His former co-worker was correct. He makes stuff up to make himself look "tough" and/or important. One example of what was brought up on reddit... If he was such a big-time drug dealer and was using his grandmother's home as a storehouse, why the hell did they drive around all afternoon/evening trying to score some pot?

Lol. I guess that's a good point.

[Razor Shines]

In part 2 of that interview Jay doesn't really help himself much. I didn't think Serial "vilified" Jay. The email SK sent him didn't at all come off as a threat, IMO.

[Razor Shines]

Did she ever say she was doing a podcast?

No, she said she was doing a radio show. They pitched it to me as an NPR radio show. I could also tell that she was uncomfortable talking to me. Her lips were quivering, and I just felt like she was lying.

Why is this even a question? This American Life is on public radio in Chicago. I'm pretty sure the first episode aired there and I imagine as she started on this story it probably was just going to be a This American Life episode.




Because I eventually cooperated with the police and testified, I know that there are people back home who would consider me a snitch and would hurt me.

Who? I mean it was made clear that Adnan wasn't part of Jay's crime underworld. That's why he came to Jay, he was the only person Adnan knew in that world. So who exactly is gonna hurt Jay for snitching?

[dabvu2498]

Here's another good one: "I don’t know if me not moving in Adnan’s circle of people would have saved her life. Like, I don’t know if I sold more weed or less weed that Hae would still be alive. You know what I’m saying? I don’t know if there’s anything else I could have done. Maybe I could have listened better, and taken what I heard more seriously."

He may be more detached from reality than the guy who's actually spent 15 years in the can.

[NebraskaRed]

My favorite quote from part 3 of the interview: "After the murder, she [Stephanie] didn’t believe that he did it. We argued a little bit because I leaned on her and said, ‘I wouldn’t have ever really been in contact with Adnan had she not suggested that I sell weed to him.'"

Say wha?

[Razor Shines]

Seems like Jay always needs someone to be out to get him. First it was the DEA/Cops because he was such a pot kingpin who as pointed out above didn't ever seem to have any pot. Then it was the crime underworld wanting to get him for snitching on Adnan who's not even a part of that crime world. Now it's Sarah Koenig and Serial, because....she's trying to get Jay convicted for the murder? I'm not exactly sure why he sees her as out to get him other than he just needs to view it that way. More often than not Serial seemed pretty sympathetic toward Jay.

I don't know what any of that means in terms of Adnan's guilt or innocence.

[dabvu2498]

Kevin Urick also gave an interview. And it's a real piece of work. Particularly part 2. A real stunning piece of "journalism."

[RedEye]

OMG I just started listening to this today. Will contribute here once I have completed season 1.

[Razor Shines]

Now Asia McClain is out there saying her testimony was suppressed. She says Urick talked her out of participating back in 2010. I don't know if that means anything though, as we're pretty sure the timeline is not the actual timeline anyway.

[dabvu2498]

Just read her full, new affidavit. I'm not sure what to think. Is it possible that no one is telling the truth at all?

[BuckeyeRed27]

Just read her full, new affidavit. I'm not sure what to think. Is it possible that no one is telling the truth at all?

It just depends on if you believe Jay or not, who has pretty much admited to lying at some point.

I don't believe Jay at all, which makes it easier to believe Asia and others.

[NebraskaRed]

Now Asia McClain is out there saying her testimony was suppressed. She says Urick talked her out of participating back in 2010. I don't know if that means anything though, as we're pretty sure the timeline is not the actual timeline anyway.

True, but there's a difference between proving innocence and getting someone's conviction thrown out. Since that timeline was the timeline that was used to convict him, then this is a big deal. In terms of proving his innocence, it does nothing at all.

[BuckeyeRed27]

True, but there's a difference between proving innocence and getting someone's conviction thrown out. Since that timeline was the timeline that was used to convict him, then this is a big deal. In terms of proving his innocence, it does nothing at all.

I'm not sure legally how any of this works, but the interview Jay gave would also throw out the whole timeline they used and invalidate all the cell phone data.

[dabvu2498]

It just depends on if you believe Jay or not, who has pretty much admited to lying at some point.

I don't believe Jay at all, which makes it easier to believe Asia and others.
I was thinking more in terms of Urick than Asia. I don't think Asia ever fully wrapped her head around her significance, probably until the podcast aired.

[RedEye]

Whoa. Just finished Season 1 and read the updates that have happened since them. The Asia McClain affadavit is pretty much a bombshell, as is the second portion of the Jay Wilds Intercept interview (did he perjure himself?) I am still pretty confused about what could have happened, and I wonder when/whether the Innocence project lawyers will get back the DNA tests they did on the old samples from Adnan's case... and whether they will align with that serial killer...

[Razor Shines]

Whoa. Just finished Season 1 and read the updates that have happened since them. The Asia McClain affadavit is pretty much a bombshell, as is the second portion of the Jay Wilds Intercept interview (did he perjure himself?) I am still pretty confused about what could have happened, and I wonder when/whether the Innocence project lawyers will get back the DNA tests they did on the old samples from Adnan's case... and whether they will align with that serial killer...

I think I'm leaning toward what Dab posted earlier. I think maybe everyone is lying. Adnan, Jay, the Detectives, Urick, Asia...

[dabvu2498]

Whoa. Just finished Season 1 and read the updates that have happened since them. The Asia McClain affadavit is pretty much a bombshell, as is the second portion of the Jay Wilds Intercept interview (did he perjure himself?) I am still pretty confused about what could have happened, and I wonder when/whether the Innocence project lawyers will get back the DNA tests they did on the old samples from Adnan's case... and whether they will align with that serial killer...

How'd Jay know where the car was located?

Big picture???

[dabvu2498]

I think I'm leaning toward what Dab posted earlier. I think maybe everyone is lying. Adnan, Jay, the Detectives, Urick, Asia...

I'm lying about thinking everyone is lying.

[Razor Shines]

I'm lying about thinking everyone is lying.

I'm lying about having ever listened to 1 second of Serial.

[dabvu2498]

I'm lying about having ever listened to 1 second of Serial.

I heard about the shrimp sale at the Crab Crib. I've made the rest of this up, entirely.

[BuckeyeRed27]

How'd Jay know where the car was located?

Big picture???

He could still know what happened to Hae without his story about Adnan being true.

The cops could have told him too...although I find that unlikely.

[RedEye]

He could still know what happened to Hae without his story about Adnan being true.

The cops could have told him too...although I find that unlikely.

What I have difficulty getting is Jay's motivation in all this. The bit about protecting his grandma just seems half-baked to me -- but I also don't get why he would do anything else in the story. He has no reason to kill Hae, obviously, and he also doesn't seem to have any particular reason to go after Adnan with false accusations. Despite the weak evidence (and as a juror I would definitely have to acquit him) I am struggling to see any other real suspects here other than Adnan. Could it perhaps have been something to do with drugs? Perhaps Adnan and Jay were in deep in the drug trade and Hae threatened to expose them?

[Razor Shines]

Don't worry I'm re-watching The Wire, I'll have this figured out soon.

[BuckeyeRed27]

What I have difficulty getting is Jay's motivation in all this. The bit about protecting his grandma just seems half-baked to me -- but I also don't get why he would do anything else in the story. He has no reason to kill Hae, obviously, and he also doesn't seem to have any particular reason to go after Adnan with false accusations. Despite the weak evidence (and as a juror I would definitely have to acquit him) I am struggling to see any other real suspects here other than Adnan. Could it perhaps have been something to do with drugs? Perhaps Adnan and Jay were in deep in the drug trade and Hae threatened to expose them?

That's my theory. It was completely drug related and Jay is protecting himself and covering for someone else.

[RedEye]

That's my theory. It was completely drug related and Jay is protecting himself and covering for someone else.

It really has to be something like that. And perhaps Adnan was a little naive at the time and left himself exposed. Jay and whoever else was involved pounced to blame it on him. That would also explain why Jay was so terrified about what was going to happen when he was working at the porn shop.

[dabvu2498]

He could still know what happened to Hae without his story about Adnan being true.

The cops could have told him too...although I find that unlikely.

Right. Don't disagree at all. But it pretty much eliminates "serial killer" from the equation.

[dabvu2498]

Despite what Jay says about himself (kinda), I don't see him as a big-time drug dealer. No car. No cell phone. And it would appear that he and Adnan, et al, spent a lot of time looking for weed for personal use.

To make Jay a prime suspect, it almost has to be a relationship thing. And Adnan's lawyer spent a lot of time trying to get to that point at trial, did she nooooootttt?

I can almost envision a scenario where Jay and Adnan's roles are reversed in this case. Jay kills Hae then goes to Adnan for help since Adnan was the link. Adnan may have bought Jay's schtick about Jay being "connected" and agreed to help. Then the police come knocking and Jay pins it on Adnan while Adnan remains loyal to the Code of the Street. I can almost buy that.

[RedEye]

Despite what Jay says about himself (kinda), I don't see him as a big-time drug dealer. No car. No cell phone. And it would appear that he and Adnan, et al, spent a lot of time looking for weed for personal use.

To make Jay a prime suspect, it almost has to be a relationship thing. And Adnan's lawyer spent a lot of time trying to get to that point at trial, did she nooooootttt?

I can almost envision a scenario where Jay and Adnan's roles are reversed in this case. Jay kills Hae then goes to Adnan for help since Adnan was the link. Adnan may have bought Jay's schtick about Jay being "connected" and agreed to help. Then the police come knocking and Jay pins it on Adnan while Adnan remains loyal to the Code of the Street. I can almost buy that.

Have you ever listened to the podcast "Crime Writers on Serial"? It might be the first podcast I've ever listened to about a podcast. Anyway, one of the hosts has the theory that there must have been a third person involved -- one that both Adnan and Jay were perhaps secondary to in the crime. One that scares the crap out of Jay and that Adnan does his best to please at the time.

One thing that always sticks out to me from the story is when Adnan sees Jay at the trial and mutters "pathetic" under his breath. That's the kind of thing that one teen says to another teen who is weak or who spills the beans. For some reason, I can't get that out of my head, because Adnan to me seems like a stronger person, one who wouldn't crack for the police, unlike Jay. I have the sense that Adnan didn't do the murder, but that he was deeply involved, and maybe that's why he's ultimately sort of okay with being in jail (it casts his whole "Why do you think I'm a nice person?" episode in a different light as well). That is to say, maybe Adnan doesn't consider himself completely innocent, but just innocent of the crime he was convicted for. Thoughts?

[dabvu2498]

Have you ever listened to the podcast "Crime Writers on Serial"? It might be the first podcast I've ever listened to about a podcast. Anyway, one of the hosts has the theory that there must have been a third person involved -- one that both Adnan and Jay were perhaps secondary to in the crime. One that scares the crap out of Jay and that Adnan does his best to please at the time.

One thing that always sticks out to me from the story is when Adnan sees Jay at the trial and mutters "pathetic" under his breath. That's the kind of thing that one teen says to another teen who is weak or who spills the beans. For some reason, I can't get that out of my head, because Adnan to me seems like a stronger person, one who wouldn't crack for the police, unlike Jay. I have the sense that Adnan didn't do the murder, but that he was deeply involved, and maybe that's why he's ultimately sort of okay with being in jail (it casts his whole "Why do you think I'm a nice person?" episode in a different light as well). That is to say, maybe Adnan doesn't consider himself completely innocent, but just innocent of the crime he was convicted for. Thoughts?

I have thoughts!

1.) I heard the first episode of the podcast you mentioned but didn't keep up. The Serial Spoiler podcast was pretty good though.

2.) I agree with most of your main points. Jay's involvement in committing the crime, while not crystal clear in detail, is obvious. He was in on it, in some way, shape or form. Jay pinned the worst of the crime on Adnan. If, someway or somehow, Adnan wasn't involved AND if Adnan had an airtight alibi, Jay's screwed... He's the murderer in the eyes of law enforcement. I don't think Jay is that lucky. He knew Adnan didn't have an airtight alibi.

3.) As far as a third person goes, I wonder about motive... What would the motive have been for that person? Adnan doesn't really help in that department. He has no alternate theories (that he's willing to share anyway). His stock answer is "I don't know." I know a person is presumed innocent and doesn't have to prove that someone else did it in order to gain an acquittal. However, anyone who's spent time with juries knows better. And the closest Adnan and his lawyers have come was alluding to Jay cheating on Stephanie, perhaps giving him some motive if Hae knew. However, I've never heard Adnan make that link himself.

4.) I think you're right that Adnan has accepted his fate, maybe partially, because he was involved. If he helped dispose of the body or knows more of the story than he's willing to tell, he ultimately feels some responsibility for what happened.

5.) Adnan's "pathetic" comment was clearly a shot at Jay being a snitch. There are a million ways to interpret it beyond that.

[RedEye]

3.) As far as a third person goes, I wonder about motive... What would the motive have been for that person? Adnan doesn't really help in that department. He has no alternate theories (that he's willing to share anyway). His stock answer is "I don't know." I know a person is presumed innocent and doesn't have to prove that someone else did it in order to gain an acquittal. However, anyone who's spent time with juries knows better. And the closest Adnan and his lawyers have come was alluding to Jay cheating on Stephanie, perhaps giving him some motive if Hae knew. However, I've never heard Adnan make that link himself.


To me, Episode 12 opened this can of worms big time. We spent all season thinking about what happened between 2:15 and 2:36 on January 13th, and we never really thought about what Jay and Adnan were doing before that time. But when Julie, the producer, double checked on the phone records, it was pretty clear that at least the cell phone was downtown in the morning while Hae was at school -- and nowhere near where Jay said they were (shopping for a gift). I don't think Adnan admitted to remembering anything that morning, which just makes speculation stronger. In any case, we know that Jay and Adnan have drugs in common (and that's really it). What if they were actually into dealing drugs, or were getting involved in some harder stuff than just pot? That would make it highly possible that they were in communication with someone far more nefarious than either of them (the co-called "West Side hitman" that Jay mysteriously told Josh about?) If that guy was tough, that would also explain Jay being scared out of his mind and Adnan being so tight-lipped about where he was for fear of crossing their mystery co-conspirator...

... and then if Hae, an assertive and honest young woman, saw something or heard something she wasn't supposed to... I dunno.

[dabvu2498]

I don't think Adnan admitted to remembering anything that morning, which just makes speculation stronger.

And that's an enormous part of the problem... Adnan does very little to refute Jay's story, except to say "wasnt me."

If there was a third person involved, and these two kids were that scared of him, it's likely he would've ordered them to kill her, no? It's not likely that he would've gotten his own hands dirty. And even if he had, why strangulation? In broad daylight? Why not wait til she was alone, in the dark, and shoot her? And if they were "ordered" to kill her, the Adnan's still a murderer and Jay got off light.

And... If Jay and Adnan were part of some bigger criminal enterprise, wouldn't they have had guns, or access to guns? Wouldn't that have been easier for them also? I can't wrap my mind about them being big-time criminals given their lack of marijuana. :) Marijuana just isn't that hard to find, particularly in a large metro area, if you have the "connections" that we're alleging.

Were any other finger/handprints (specifically Jay's) found in Hae's car? Or was there evidence that the car was wiped down (except for Adnan's prints)? Obviously his prints don't prove that he did murder, but with the evidence that the murder did happen in the car, lack of other confirm-able prints leaves us with...

I will say this for sure... I don't think Adnan premeditated the killing. He left too many trails about wanting a ride from Hae after school. I think Jay embellished that part to increase suspicion and provide motive.

[Razor Shines]

I also can't see Jay or Adnan being some type of big time criminals or mixed up with any. I think there's a lot to Jay liking to tell stories and make it seem like he was some type of big time criminal.

It's possible that Jay enjoyed being part of this story. Maybe he was excited to talk to the cops, being involved in this is the closest he's ever been to being into some type of big crime. Maybe Adnan killing Hae was a spur of the moment crime of passion type thing, he tells Jay and Jay offers his help instead of Adnan forcing him to help. Maybe this is crazy but what if Jay was excited to be involved in the disposal of the body and then after a period of time was just as excited to go talk to the cops and be the star witness.

That could be completely ridiculous but I don't think its more ridiculous than anything else in this case.

[RedEye]

So I'm hearing you guys say that you kinda think Adnan did it. I think he was definitely involved, but I'm not sure. I don't think the third individual would have had to be someone that high up in the drug trade. I'm just speculating that it was someone older that Adnan and Jay were deferential to. Maybe it wasn't a person who ordered Hae dead necessarily -- just someone that the boys were scared enough of to make them act rashly.

[Razor Shines]

So I'm hearing you guys say that you kinda think Adnan did it. I think he was definitely involved, but I'm not sure. I don't think the third individual would have had to be someone that high up in the drug trade. I'm just speculating that it was someone older that Adnan and Jay were deferential to. Maybe it wasn't a person who ordered Hae dead necessarily -- just someone that the boys were scared enough of to make them act rashly.

I really just don't see it. Something, whispers...anything would have had to come out about this third person. With all the attention this case has gotten somebody would have said something by now, IMO. But who knows, maybe you're right.

[RedEye]

I really just don't see it. Something, whispers...anything would have had to come out about this third person. With all the attention this case has gotten somebody would have said something by now, IMO. But who knows, maybe you're right.

I don't blame you. I'm admittedly grasping at straws here. It is such a confounding case though. It just makes no sense.

[dabvu2498]

I think it makes sense as a crime of passion and not premeditated. Happens more than most of us care to realize, unfortunately.

[RedEye]

I think it makes sense as a crime of passion and not premeditated. Happens more than most of us care to realize, unfortunately.

Sure, it makes sense... maybe... but there is no way a jury should have found Adnan guilty of this. There are, as Sarah K. puts it, "mountains of reasonable doubt."

[dabvu2498]

I'm loathe to question the jury's verdict because I didn't sit through the weeks of testimony that they did. I listened to podcasts and read some stuff on reddit.

And let's not forget, the podcast presented some info that didn't exist in 1999 and/or wasn't admissible. And the podcast also held back some info that was was presented at trial that was damaging to Adnan's case (the school nurse is the first thing that comes to mind).

I also have to remind myself that "beyond a reasonable doubt" doesn't equal "absolute proof." I can have doubts about this case. I can agree that there was potentially a third party involved, but is that reasonable? Guilty verdicts don't require 14 eye witnesses that whose stories all match and truckloads of forensic evidence.

The jury convicted Adnan in around 5 hours of deliberations. How did that happen? Twelve of the most-bloodthirsty people alive? It's easy for us to have doubts 15 years later. It may have been easy then, but we as listeners don't really know. And most importantly, would those doubts be "reasonable" based on the testimony presented to the jury?

[RedEye]

I also have to remind myself that "beyond a reasonable doubt" doesn't equal "absolute proof." I can have doubts about this case. I can agree that there was potentially a third party involved, but is that reasonable? Guilty verdicts don't require 14 eye witnesses that whose stories all match and truckloads of forensic evidence.


That's kind of a straw man. I know that reasonable doubt doesn't equal absolute proof, and you've set up a kind of impossible hypothetical. But I can't see how Jay's (very fishy) testimony plus a palm print on a map (with no time stamp) and a (highly problematic) cell phone record led to a conviction.

I think it is clear that the jury had nothing besides circumstantial evidence to go on to convict Adnan, and Sarah K. got the opinions of the Innocence Project and that other detective (name?) to back up that view. Even in the realm of other similar cases, this was remarkably flimsy. Granted, the defense made a weak case with the evidence that they had as well. But there is just no way with that evidence that Adnan should have been convicted of premeditated murder. No way.

I'm not saying he's innocent -- but if this case plays by the rules, he's at least not serving a life sentence right now.

[dabvu2498]

That's kind of a straw man. I know that reasonable doubt doesn't equal absolute proof, and you've set up a kind of impossible hypothetical. But I can't see how Jay's (very fishy) testimony plus a palm print on a map (with no time stamp) and a (highly problematic) cell phone record led to a conviction.

I think it is clear that the jury had nothing besides circumstantial evidence to go on to convict Adnan, and Sarah K. got the opinions of the Innocence Project and that other detective (name?) to back up that view. Even in the realm of other similar cases, this was remarkably flimsy. Granted, the defense made a weak case with the evidence that they had as well. But there is just no way with that evidence that Adnan should have been convicted of premeditated murder. No way.

I'm not saying he's innocent -- but if this case plays by the rules, he's at least not serving a life sentence right now.

Remember, the jury only heard one version of Jay's story. I haven't read the transcripts to know how Gutierrez tried to break him down and flesh out inconsistencies, but it's safe to say they didn't have an Koenig breaking it down for them like we did. I can recall one of the jurors saying that Jay was a trustworthy witness (not her precise wording). She obviously didn't get the impression that we got about Jay.

I'd agree with you on the premeditation part. I don't see that, at all... Unless you believe Jay, lock, stock and barrel. (And the "I'm going to kill..." note.)

[vaticanplum]

I just listened to the entire thing in about two days and I don't know what to think and it's DRIVING ME CRAZY.

[dabvu2498]

I just listened to the entire thing in about two days and I don't know what to think and it's DRIVING ME CRAZY.

We can't help you.

You've come to the wrong place!

RUN!!!!!!!

[pedro]

I just listened to the entire thing in about two days and I don't know what to think and it's DRIVING ME CRAZY.

My strategy has just been to move on to listening to all the the episodes of "Snap Judgement" in reverse chronological order.

[RedEye]

Update (http://serialpodcast.org/posts/2015/02/update-court-of-special-appeals-will-hear-arguments-in-adnan-syed-case) today:


Some news on the legal front: The Maryland Court of Special Appeals has agreed to hear arguments about why Adnan should either get a new trial, or some other remedy. (You can read the order here.)

[Razor Shines]

So that six part documentary on HBO The Jinx: Life and Deaths of Robert Durst has got a Serial feel to it. It's pretty ridiculous and addicting.

[RedEye]

So that six part documentary on HBO The Jinx: Life and Deaths of Robert Durst has got a Serial feel to it. It's pretty ridiculous and addicting.

If I'm not mistaken, this film is also based on his life...

8763

[Razor Shines]

If I'm not mistaken, this film is also based on his life...

8763

Yeah, it is. I remembered the movie and that's the first reason I started watching the mini series.

[RedEye]

These are the type of stories that prove over and over that truth is stranger than fiction. If you ever wrote a character like
Jay from Serial into a screenplay, you'd be told to take him out because he is so inconsistent as to be fundamentally crazy -- even on paper.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Anyone been listening to Undisclosed? It is another pod put on by Adnans lawyer friend Rabia. It's not as good as Serial, but does another type of spin through the case. The last episode put together a pretty compelling case that the Baltimore PD basically coached Jay's entire testimony.

[gilpdawg]

Anyone been listening to Undisclosed? It is another pod put on by Adnans lawyer friend Rabia. It's not as good as Serial, but does another type of spin through the case. The last episode put together a pretty compelling case that the Baltimore PD basically coached Jay's entire testimony.

I tried to listen to it, but it's way too one sided. It might as well be called the #freeadnan podcast.

[Razor Shines]

I tried to listen to it, but it's way too one sided. It might as well be called the #freeadnan podcast.

From what we heard of her on Serial, I imagined that's how it would be. She didn't seem as much interested in the truth (unless the truth is Adnan is innocent) as much as freeing Adnan at all costs, which is fine but like you said I imagine it would be difficult to listen to.

[gilpdawg]

From what we heard of her on Serial, I imagined that's how it would be. She didn't seem as much interested in the truth (unless the truth is Adnan is innocent) as much as freeing Adnan at all costs, which is fine but like you said I imagine it would be difficult to listen to.

Yeah, and since I'm still pretty much on the fence regarding Adnan's guilt, I really have no interest in a biased view. I think he may be guilty but the evidence wasn't strong enough to convict.

[BuckeyeRed27]

It is certainly biased, but I do think they are upfront about that fact. That said I don't think it changes a lot of the facts that they have presented. I only find it annoying when they give Adnan the complete benefit of the doubt, while they don't allow that with others. I've only seen that happen maybe 2 or 3 times over the course of the series thus far.

The information that they have brought up about the Baltimore PD investigation and the interview tapes, the timeline of Hae's day and the fact that she didn't have a wrestling match and was supposed to work, and a lot of the confusion around Jay's version I have found pretty good.

My thought after Serial was I don't know if he did it or not, but it certainly didn't happen the way that they said it happened at trial and this pod does a lot to confirm that.

[gilpdawg]

Maybe I'll give it another shot.

[dabvu2498]

So the second season has begun. I'm interested in the topic but I'm afraid we will have to take most of the discussion to the P/R forum.

[RedEye]

Fantastic choice for a topic. But yes... we won't be able to keep it here for long. Very excited to hear what Bergdahl has to say. And so much else.

[Razor Shines]

Interesting topic for sure. I have pretty strong feelings going into this but I'm open to wherever it takes us.

[Raisor]

Listened to all of season one today.

I have little doubt Adnan killed her, but not per the prosecution's case which was crap.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Listened to all of season one today.

I have little doubt Adnan killed her, but not per the prosecution's case which was crap.

Listen to Undisclosed. You won't think he killed her and it clear ups a lot of the stuff that Serial was a little soft on.

[Razor Shines]

Listen to Undisclosed. You won't think he killed her and it clear ups a lot of the stuff that Serial was a little soft on.

Is that Adnon's Aunt's podcast? I think I listened to an episode of that and found it extremely favorable to Adnon.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Is that Adnon's Aunt's podcast? I think I listened to an episode of that and found it extremely favorable to Adnon.

Not his aunt, but a family friend is one of the three main people. You do have to listen to it with that filter, but overall I found it pretty compelling. It's actually freaky how some of the police conduct mirrors the Steven Avery stuff in Making a Murderer.

[Raisor]

Listen to Undisclosed. You won't think he killed her and it clear ups a lot of the stuff that Serial was a little soft on.

Undisclosed is produced by his attorney and hosted by a family friend. Not going to listen to it. I've read up more on the case from non-biased sources and am still convinced he was involved.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Undisclosed is produced by his attorney and hosted by a family friend. Not going to listen to it. I've read up more on the case from non-biased sources and am still convinced he was involved.

Almost every source post conviction is biased.
I have a lot of problems with the inconsistencies and flat out changes in Jay's story, the complete lack of physical evidence and some of the police conduct. Undisclosed (and Serial) don't prove he is guilty, but there is way to much doubt to convict him.

[Razor Shines]

Almost every source post conviction is biased.
I have a lot of problems with the inconsistencies and flat out changes in Jay's story, the complete lack of physical evidence and some of the police conduct. Undisclosed (and Serial) don't prove he is guilty, but there is way to much doubt to convict him.

True, the state did not prove he did it and I wouldn't have found him guilty but I do think he was involved.

[Raisor]

I agree he shouldn't have been convicted based on the case presented. That doesn't mean he didn't do it.

[BuckeyeRed27]

I agree he shouldn't have been convicted based on the case presented. That doesn't mean he didn't do it.

That's true. I just find their to be a complete lack of compelling evidence. The most interesting part of Undisclosed was the cell phone stuff, that pretty much discredits that information. Without that there is really no case.

[BuckeyeRed27]

In the Adnan case there is a hearing right now to determine if he should get a new trial. It is a 3 day hearing that wraps tomorrow and Asia has been the main person testifying about a possible alibi that wasn't used in the original trial. Lots of coverage out there if you are interested.

[Raisor]

Sarah will be posting daily updates on the podcast

[BuckeyeRed27]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/01/us/serial-adnan-syed-new-trial.html?_r=0

Adnan has been granted a new trial in his murder case.

[dabvu2498]

S-Town makes Serial look like amateur hour. Discuss.

[Razor Shines]

S-Town makes Serial look like amateur hour. Discuss.

Amazing. I don't even know what else to say.

[dabvu2498]

Amazing. I don't even know what else to say.

Best 7 hours I've ever devoted to media.

[NebraskaRed]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/adnan-syed-trial-serial-podcast-charges-appeal-hae-min-lee-baltimore-a8280466.html

Adnan Syed granted a new trial