2014 Bengals Discussion, Part 2

[Joseph]

They've already accepted the loss.

I think they accepted the loss when they put on the unis this morning. I did.

[Crumbley]

At the end of the day, Dalton just isn't talented enough.

[The Operator]

Hey, a Sanu sighting!

[Stray]

At the end of the day, Dalton just isn't talented enough.

Not to defend Dalton or anything, but what has he done that's so awful today?

Only a few QBs are good enough to take any receivers and throw them open. Dalton isn't one but most guys aren't lol.

Passing game has just been gutted by injuries. All we have left is Sanu who drops half the throws his way.

[Stray]

Nobody open

[RedTeamGo!]

Nobody open but I just don't see any way Dalton is Bengals qb1 in 2015

[The Operator]

At the end of the day, Dalton just isn't talented enough.Yep.

And Mikey won't replace him since they keep squeaking into the playoffs and selling enough tickets to make money. He could care less about actually winning once they get there.

[The Operator]

Not to defend Dalton or anything, but what has he done that's so awful today?

Only a few QBs are good enough to take any receivers and throw them open. Dalton isn't one but most guys aren't lol.

Passing game has just been gutted by injuries. All we have left is Sanu who drops half the throws his way.Dalton has been bad all year, even with Gresham and AJ Green both on the field.

[Roy Tucker]

Just a weak effort today.

[The Operator]

Nobody open but I just don't see any way Dalton is Bengals qb1 in 2015No way in hell Mikey makes a change.

[WMR]

Not to defend Dalton or anything, but what has he done that's so awful today?

Only a few QBs are good enough to take any receivers and throw them open. Dalton isn't one but most guys aren't lol.

Passing game has just been gutted by injuries. All we have left is Sanu who drops half the throws his way.

You've been defending his lackluster play since he was drafted... :rolleyes:

[Stray]

Dalton has been bad all year, even with Gresham and AJ Green both on the field.

I don't disagree, I was talking about this game. I don't think it mattered how good he was today, if we couldn't run the ball we were gonna lose.

Hamilton, Tate, Sanu and Brock aren't going to beat professional secondaries. If so, they wouldn't be practice squad players.

[WMR]

No way in hell Mikey makes a change.

If I woke up with my head sewn to the carpet, I wouldn't be any more surprised than I'd be if mikey got rid of Marvin or the Soulless Ginger.

[WMR]

Dalton has been bad all year, even with Gresham and AJ Green both on the field.

Dalton has severely regressed, IMO.

He's getting worse... or maybe the league has just figured him out.

[Stray]

You've been defending his lackluster play since he was drafted... :rolleyes:

If by defending you mean pointing out the obvious, then sure. He has won a lot of games and isn't as bad as people like to pretend he is, but he's never going to be a great QB who can carry a franchise.

He has had a horrible season this year tho.

[RedTeamGo!]

The bengals are aware this is a playoff game, right?

[Roy Tucker]

Bengals are letting the 2nd and 3rd team running backs dominate them.

[The Operator]

If I woke up with my head sewn to the carpet, I wouldn't be any more surprised than I'd be if mikey got rid of Marvin or the Soulless Ginger.Right. This is the same owner who let Bob Bratkowski coach the offense for yeeaaarrss when everybody and their brother knew he was terrible.

[Razor Shines]

If I woke up with my head sewn to the carpet, I wouldn't be any more surprised than I'd be if mikey got rid of Marvin or the Soulless Ginger.

Wow. Christmas Vacation and Southpark in one post.

[Crumbley]

I don't follow NFL like I do MLB, is a Dalton/Cutler swap possible? AJ just needs someone who can throw a deep ball.

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I mean, it isn't possible, because this is a dynasty to Brown, but in a hypothetical reality where ownership weren't knuckleheads.

[Redhook]

Dalton has severely regressed, IMO.

He's getting worse... or maybe the league has just figured him out.

Yes, he has. He wasn't good enough at his peak and now he's regressing. It's miserable watching him (I don't put the loss on him today though).

[Stray]

I don't follow NFL like I do MLB, is a Dalton/Cutler swap possible? AJ just needs someone who can throw a deep ball.

Why in the heck would we want Jay Cutler lol

Get someone in the draft.

[dabvu2498]

Dalton has been bad all year, even with Gresham and AJ Green both on the field.

What about when AJ, Marvin Jones, Gresham and Eifert were on the field together?

[WMR]

Wow. Christmas Vacation and Southpark in one post.

Should've typed Starvin' Marvin instead. :angry:

Cept Marvin looks exceedingly well-fed.

[WMR]

What about when AJ, Marvin Jones, Gresham and Eifert were on the field together?

If your QB is only worth a damn when he has every receiver healthy, your QB isn't worth a damn.

[The Operator]

LOL

Perfect way to cap this season. Fumble the ball away right after crossing into Colts territory.

[RedTeamGo!]

Lol fitting end.

Go Panthers!

[Crumbley]

Why in the heck would we want Jay Cutler lol

Get someone in the draft.

Cutler to AJ gives me visions of Culpepper to Moss. Freaky fast guy with an amazing vertical leap, paired with man who can throw a football very far.

[Stray]

If your QB is only worth a damn when he has every receiver healthy, your QB isn't worth a damn.

I'd love to have Andrew Luck but unfortunately there aren't many of those guys around.

Most QBs are only as good as their supporting cast.

[The Operator]

What about when AJ, Marvin Jones, Gresham and Eifert were on the field together?Is Tyler Eifert even still alive?

He's like a Bengals version of Nick Masset this year.

[traderumor]

OK, this is making it clear that the current squad has hit its ceiling. QB and revamp the d-line, and probably the LBers as well. Regardless, this is a fringe playoff team, not a championship caliber team. It shows up in the playoffs and on the road against playoff caliber opponents. Dalton needs replaced with an upgrade--immediately. Should be the first offseason priority. I had hoped he would develop into Ken Anderson, but he's, at best, Jon Kitna.

[The Operator]

I'd love to have Andrew Luck but unfortunately there aren't many of those guys around.

Most QBs are only as good as their supporting cast.Not many teams can have an Andrew Luck.

But it doesn't take having Andrew Luck to have someone better than Dalton.

[WMR]

I'd love to have Andrew Luck but unfortunately there aren't many of those guys around.

Most QBs are only as good as their supporting cast.

Keep those expectations low, right where Mikey likes them.

Season ticket renewal push starts today! :party:

[dabvu2498]

If your QB is only worth a damn when he has every receiver healthy, your QB isn't worth a damn.

Those two guys that never played this year... Almost 1200 yards last year. Wonder who threw them those 1200 yards...

[Stray]

Would anyone be upset if they kinda blew it up and wanted to rebuild? Suck for a few years and get some draft picks?

Marvin should prolly be on the hotseat but won't be.
Looking around the league the only QBs I could imagine becoming available are maybe Cousins or Foles? Just kinda guessing there.
DLine got old fast.

[dabvu2498]

Is Tyler Eifert even still alive?

He's like a Bengals version of Nick Masset this year.

Be patient... He'll be back after the bye.

[Stray]

Keep those expectations low, right where Mikey likes them.

Season ticket renewal push starts today! :party:

Who do you have in mind to replace Dalton?

Can't just say this guy sucks lets get him out of here without having a better available option. Like I said, I'm all for improving any position in the offseason.

The bad part about being better than most, but not good enough to be great is that your draft picks kinda suck every year. You're better off being terrible or very good, we've been stuck in the middle for a while now.

[Roy Tucker]

When Rex Burkhead is your best receiver, you're in trouble.

Injuries aside though, I saw a whole lot of give-up on the field today.

[WMR]

Those two guys that never played this year... Almost 1200 yards last year. Wonder who threw them those 1200 yards...

I'm sure next season will be different with those 2 healthy. :lol:

Order your season tickets today!!! Www.bengals.com/tickets

[Stray]

It's a heck of a lot easier to replace a coach than it is the players. I don't think you can just do nothing and hope it gets better next year.

There are going to be some good coaches available. I think Marvin has been good, but change just for the sake of change makes a lot of sense right now.

[Tom Servo]

Who do you have in mind to replace Dalton?

I'd ask Hue Jackson (assuming he is back and doesn't get a HC job somewhere) to identify a guy he really likes as a buy-low candidate that he thinks he can coach up. EJ Manuel, Jake Locker, Mike Glennon, Ryan Mallett, Ryan Nassib, those kinds of guys.

[RiverRat13]

Marvin going would only mean that Hue gets promoted.

[Assembly Hall]

Cutler to AJ gives me visions of Culpepper to Moss. Freaky fast guy with an amazing vertical leap, paired with man who can throw a football very far.


And just how did the Bears do this year with all kinds of offensive weapons?

[dabvu2498]

There's a big part of me that wants Marvin as GM or player personnel guy. He seems to be a pretty effective foil to M. Brown on some of El Cheapo's spendthrift issues. Keep Marvin around to help keep Mikes pockets open but hire a new guy to be the voice the players hear everyday.

[Stray]

I'd ask Hue Jackson (assuming he is back and doesn't get a HC job somewhere) to identify a guy he really likes as a buy-low candidate that he thinks he can coach up. EJ Manuel, Jake Locker, Mike Glennon, Ryan Mallett, Ryan Nassib, those kinds of guys.
Mallet I could get behind

[The Operator]

There's a big part of me that wants Marvin as GM or player personnel guy. He seems to be a pretty effective foil to M. Brown on some of El Cheapo's spendthrift issues. Keep Marvin around to help keep Mikes pockets open but hire a new guy to be the voice the players hear everyday.I'd be on board with that.

[Stray]

I know it'll never happen but I'd love for Marvin to be the GM and Rex Ryan to be our head coach.

[WMR]

I know it'll never happen but I'd love for Marvin to be the GM and Rex Ryan to be our head coach.

Only if Marvin and Rex do a weekly radio show together. That would be gold. :lol:

[paintmered]

When Rex Burkhead is your best receiver, you're in trouble.

Injuries aside though, I saw a whole lot of give-up on the field today.

Okay defense, go out there and stop Andrew Luck. As soon as you do, you'll get to rest for three plays.

[Brutus]

This is about as good as things are ever gonna be until they decide to draft a QB who can do more than just manage a game.

This time, no one can possibly blame Dalton for this loss. Look at the guys he had to throw to. Several QBs in this league have proven you can win in the playoffs by "managing" a game. However, you can't do it when your two best receivers, two play-making tight ends and solid reserve slot guy are all out.

[Brutus]

Dalton has severely regressed, IMO.

He's getting worse... or maybe the league has just figured him out.

He hasn't regressed. All of the Bengals' best weapons have either been out or playing at half strength all season.

[dabvu2498]

He hasn't regressed. All of the Bengals' best weapons have either been out or playing at half strength all season.

Having to sign an inactive free agent to come in and play RT the last 1/4 of the season isn't exactly standard, either.

[bucksfan2]

Going into the season I would imagine Green, Burfict, Gresham, Eifort, and Marvin Jones would make the list of most important Bengals. It is tough to win games without your best offensive players and best defensive player. Its not an excuse just a reality, I think Phil Sims made a good point today that at Indy's practices there were two guys guarding a #18 jersey, when he isn't there that takes one player and puts him back into the mix.

I will take 4 playoff seasons in a row year after year after year.

[Brutus]

Having to sign an inactive free agent to come in and play RT the last 1/4 of the season isn't exactly standard, either.

Very true. The offense the Bengals had to throw out there today would be one of the worst in the NFL for a full season. Not even Luck or Brady would have fared well throwing to those guys. Heck, look how much Brady suffered just losing Gronkowski.

[Stray]

Had to Google Hamilton and Brock because I honestly had no idea who they were.

[Assembly Hall]

As a Colts fan, I don't care about injuries. We have had our share ourselves. Seems like nobody remembers that the Colts were missing their top two RBs or their revamped O-line or that Robert Mathis wasn't there. You want a towel to cry on, I aint giving you one. It is the NFL.

The fact of the matter is that the Bengal defense did what it had to do in sorts. Bend don't break. You look at the stats and this game was a blow out. But they gave up few points. Missing receivers or not, their offense was horrid. Good teams fight through that and good QBs improvise.

Great season for the Bengals......I really wish they would have beat Pittsburgh last week. I think the home field is what they needed this week.

[The Operator]

This time, no one can possibly blame Dalton for this loss. Look at the guys he had to throw to. Several QBs in this league have proven you can win in the playoffs by "managing" a game. However, you can't do it when your two best receivers, two play-making tight ends and solid reserve slot guy are all out.It isn't even just this year.

Dude is 0-4 in the playoffs. And we're all very aware of how terrible they've been in prime time regular season games.

This particular loss isn't all on his shoulders. But even at his best he's pretty middling, even with all of his weapons.

- - - Updated - - -


I will take 4 playoff seasons in a row year after year after year.And Mikey is counting on people with that very attitude.

[bucksfan2]

It isn't even just this year.

Dude is 0-4 in the playoffs. And we're all very aware of how terrible they've been in prime time regular season games.

This particular loss isn't all on his shoulders. But even at his best he's pretty middling, even with all of his weapons.

- - - Updated - - -

And Mikey is counting on people with that very attitude.

Could go the Colts method and win the lottery on two of the worst seasons in NFL history.

What do you want the Bengals to do? Not make the playoffs so Mikey doesn't get so much money? You have to make the playoffs to win the SB. Getting there in the toughest division in football is an accomplishment. But I guess enjoying the Bengals play football is playing into Mikey's pocket. Actually anytime you turn on a NFL game you are putting money into Mikey's pocket. I have learned it is much more fun to watch the Bengals no worrying about a billionaire than carrying what one may do.

[The Operator]

Could go the Colts method and win the lottery on two of the worst seasons in NFL history.

What do you want the Bengals to do? Not make the playoffs so Mikey doesn't get so much money? You have to make the playoffs to win the SB. Getting there in the toughest division in football is an accomplishment. But I guess enjoying the Bengals play football is playing into Mikey's pocket. Actually anytime you turn on a NFL game you are putting money into Mikey's pocket. I have learned it is much more fun to watch the Bengals no worrying about a billionaire than carrying what one may do.You don't have to have Peyton Manning and then Andrew Luck to end up better than what The Bengals have done.

I love that the Bengals are relevant again, but at some point we have to get past this whole Cincinnati mentality of "Who cares if they lose in the playoffs, at least they made it!"

I mean seriously, what good is making the playoffs if everyone knows good and well they're gonna get bounced out?

[traderumor]

You don't have to have Peyton Manning and then Andrew Luck to end up better than what The Bengals have done.

I love that the Bengals are relevant again, but at some point we have to get past this whole Cincinnati mentality of "Who cares if they lose in the playoffs, at least they made it!"

I mean seriously, what good is making the playoffs if everyone knows good and well they're gonna get bounced out?Who really has that mentality? But what do you want us to do, jump off a bridge?

[The Operator]

Who really has that mentality? But what do you want us to do, jump off a bridge?No, but I don't get why so many people refuse to call this for what it is.

It's a step above mediocrity. They're relevant, and it's definitely better than the 1990's - don't get me wrong there. But when they continually no-show in prime time games and then get bounced in grand fashion each and every time they go to the playoffs, it's incredibly frustrating.

I love that they're relevant again. But I want more - I'm not satisfied with 9-10 wins each year and making the playoffs only to lose. Sadly I think Mikey is very satisfied with that.

[Caveman Techie]

Andy Dalton did not play all that bad today, unfortunately he didn't play all that well either. Six out of ten snaps Dalton is the worst QB in the league, the problem is the other 4 he is one of the best. What do you do with a guy like that? He's no longer a "rookie" whom you can expect to coach up, and he has quite visibly regressed this year. I think I know what Mike Brown does with him, but what would a real GM do?

You can't continue to waste the talent on this team with a coach who can't win in the big games and a QB who can't make a completion longer than 15 yards.

[RiverRat13]

This discussion took place last year as well, but you can't call Andy Dalton a game manager. He turns the ball over way too much to fit that description.

[SunDeck]

Tough to win when your missing key players on offense. Thats what the NFL is anymore, a season of attrition,

[RiverRat13]

As a Colts fan, I don't care about injuries. We have had our share ourselves. Seems like nobody remembers that the Colts were missing their top two RBs or their revamped O-line or that Robert Mathis wasn't there. You want a towel to cry on, I aint giving you one. It is the NFL.
.

While I mostly agree with this, I do have to point out that there's no real comparison between the talent that the Bengals were without to those players missing for the Colts. I'd gladly trade the Colts having Mathis and a couple of pedestrian RBs and offensive linemen if it meant the Bengals had Green, Burfict, Andre Smith, Eifert, Gresham, Marvin Jones and Maualuga all heathy.

[Assembly Hall]

Tough to win when your missing key players on offense. Thats what the NFL is anymore, a season of attrition,

Dead on. But the Bengals played a team that has had injury problems. Tired of everybody wanting cheese with their whine.

[Assembly Hall]

While I mostly agree with this, I do have to point out that there's no real comparison between the talent that the Bengals were without to those players missing for the Colts. I'd gladly trade the Colts having Mathis and a couple of pedestrian RBs and offensive linemen if it meant the Bengals had Green, Burfict, Andre Smith, Eifert, Gresham, Marvin Jones and Maualuga all heathy.

Oh no. Don't lay that card. We got beat because so and so was out. That is kind of pathetic and trust me I don't dislike the Bengals. You play the cards in your hand. If guys are out, then they are out. The Reds would have won the World Series this past year if Votto, Phillips, Bruce, Latos, and Chapman wouldn't have got hurt. Part of the games my friend.

[KoryMac5]

As a Colts fan, I don't care about injuries. We have had our share ourselves. Seems like nobody remembers that the Colts were missing their top two RBs or their revamped O-line or that Robert Mathis wasn't there. You want a towel to cry on, I aint giving you one. It is the NFL.

The fact of the matter is that the Bengal defense did what it had to do in sorts. Bend don't break. You look at the stats and this game was a blow out. But they gave up few points. Missing receivers or not, their offense was horrid. Good teams fight through that and good QBs improvise.

Great season for the Bengals......I really wish they would have beat Pittsburgh last week. I think the home field is what they needed this week.

Who's crying about injuries. I haven't seen much of that in this thread for the most part. To be honest I think Bengals fans are the most brutally honest fans in the NFL. It's to the point where it resembles a funeral when you get us in the same spot.

[Todd Gack]

Who really has that mentality?

Go read the ORG. There are a lot of people there who think we're just 'unlucky.'

[RiverRat13]

Oh no. Don't lay that card. We got beat because so and so was out. That is kind of pathetic and trust me I don't dislike the Bengals. You play the cards in your hand. If guys are out, then they are out. The Reds would have won the World Series this past year if Votto, Phillips, Bruce, Latos, and Chapman wouldn't have got hurt. Part of the games my friend.

I said I mostly agree with you. No NFL team can rest its hopes on being totally healthy. The biggest difference is QB play. If the teams could switch QBs, the Bengals would have won. But it is still disingenuous to say "we both we're missing guys" when the Bengals' talent out clearly overwhelms who was missing for the Colts.

[Assembly Hall]

Who's crying about injuries. I haven't seen much of that in this thread for the most part. To be honest I think Bengals fans are the most brutally honest fans in the NFL. It's to the point where it resembles a funeral when you get us in the same spot.

Lots of "crying" going on in this thread. And honestly, I don't think that about Bengal fans at all. They are and have been just discouraged through the years. Nothing wrong with that.

[MWM]

Hue Jackson is the worst offensive coordinator the Bengals have ever had. He needs to go back to coaching RBs only. He has no business running an NFL offense. He's awful.

[KoryMac5]

I reread the thread and saw maybe 2 posts that could be labeled crying. The majority were gloom and doom posts about the same old Bengals. Heck we were doom and gloom before the game even started.

[Assembly Hall]

I said I mostly agree with you. No NFL team can rest its hopes on being totally healthy. The biggest difference is QB play. If the teams could switch QBs, the Bengals would have won. But it is still disingenuous to say "we both we're missing guys" when the Bengals' talent out clearly overwhelms who was missing for the Colts.

Well, there aren't many teams out there that wouldn't want Luck's services. But that last sentence does puzzle me. It might clearly overwhelm on your end, but it sure as hell doesn't on my end.

[wolfboy]

Dead on. But the Bengals played a team that has had injury problems. Tired of everybody wanting cheese with their whine.

If you're tired of it, then why in the world would you seek out a Bengals discussion thread to bring it up? The hilarious thing is that no one was even whining about or blaming injuries. In fact, the discussion was almost exclusively about whether the loss falls on Dalton's shoulders. Enjoy your win. But seriously - does it make it any better by seeking out the Bengals thread and trolling about injuries excuses that aren't even there?

[Assembly Hall]

I reread the thread and saw maybe 2 posts that could be labeled crying. The majority were gloom and doom posts about the same old Bengals. Heck we were doom and gloom before the game even started.

You read it your way and I will read it mine. No offense meant.

[RiverRat13]

If you're tired of it, then why in the world would you seek out a Bengals discussion thread to bring it up? The hilarious thing is that no one was even whining about or blaming injuries. In fact, the discussion was almost exclusively about whether the loss falls on Dalton's shoulders. Enjoy you win. But seriously - does it make it any better by seeking out the Bengals thread and trolling about injuries excuses that aren't even there?

This. Not one person has said the Bengals would have won had everyone been healthy. The injury discussion has revolved around how much blame goes to Dalton. While I believe it is clear that the Bengals had much more talent out of today's game, I would not say they would have won had everyone been healthy. There's too big of a gap between Luck and Dalton for me to say that.

[Hoosier Red]

Injuries or no, I don't put the blame for this one on Dalton because I think it was pretty clear both OL and DL got the tails handed to them today. And I really thought that's where the Bengals should have had an advantage. Both lines got overwhelmed.

[RiverRat13]

Injuries or no, I don't put the blame for this one on Dalton because I think it was pretty clear both OL and DL got the tails handed to them today. And I really thought that's where the Bengals should have had an advantage. Both lines got overwhelmed.

The DL has been poor all season. The Bengals had the fewest sacks in the NFL this season, so Luck having all day wasn't that surprising. I still wouldn't say the OL was overwhelmed. It did a decent job considering the Colts could stack the line and dare the Bengals to throw it.

[wolfboy]

Injuries or no, I don't put the blame for this one on Dalton because I think it was pretty clear both OL and DL got the tails handed to them today. And I really thought that's where the Bengals should have had an advantage. Both lines got overwhelmed.

I can't entirely place this one on Dalton's shoulders, but nevertheless, he's not the guy that can get this team deep in the playoffs. He didn't pull a Dalton Playoff Special, but the team only scored ten points. You don't win any game with offense like that. And a lot of that has to fall on Dalton.

[Assembly Hall]

If you're tired of it, then why in the world would you seek out a Bengals discussion thread to bring it up? The hilarious thing is that no one was even whining about or blaming injuries. In fact, the discussion was almost exclusively about whether the loss falls on Dalton's shoulders. Enjoy your win. But seriously - does it make it any better by seeking out the Bengals thread and trolling about injuries excuses that aren't even there?

Once again, I follow the Bengals closely. I feel their pain and can appreciate it. I read it the way I see it.

[Hoosier Red]

I can't entirely place this one on Dalton's shoulders, but nevertheless, he's not the guy that can get this team deep in the playoffs. He didn't pull a Dalton Playoff Special, but the team only scored ten points. You don't win any game with offense like that. And a lot of that has to fall on Dalton.

Sure, but again when OL can't run block against a defense that was gashed all season long, you're not giving ANY of the skill position players a chance.

[wolfboy]

Once again, I follow the Bengals closely. I feel their pain and can appreciate it. I read it the way I see it.

Good for you. You also mentioned that you're tired of hearing it. I can assure you that you weren't hearing it here, but if it bothers you that much then don't open a Bengals discussion thread just so you can steer the conversation to the very thing you're so bothered about. I think it's plainly obvious from the responses here that no one is interested in talking about injuries other than you.

[Sea Ray]

This. Not one person has said the Bengals would have won had everyone been healthy. The injury discussion has revolved around how much blame goes to Dalton. While I believe it is clear that the Bengals had much more talent out of today's game, I would not say they would have won had everyone been healthy. There's too big of a gap between Luck and Dalton for me to say that.

The Bengals have been "borderline" for advancing in the playoffs all year long. Given the totality of their team from ownership to coaching to QB play to overall talent, it was going to be a crapshoot whether they'd be able to win a playoff game. Since they had no room for error, going into that game with multiple injuries made it nearly impossible. In other words, it knocked them off that borderline. That's not to say that they'd have won if they'd been more healthy. Their chances were bordline at best

Unfortunately that game went exactly as I figured. I wish something about the Bengals play would have surprised me in the positive but they did not

It does mean I'll have more free time this month

[RiverRat13]

Sure, but again when OL can't run block against a defense that was gashed all season long, you're not giving ANY of the skill position players a chance.

Now we're getting into chicken or egg territory. Did the skill positions fail today because the OL didn't block, or was the OL put in an impossible position due to the lack of a passing threat? I tend to go with the latter.

[Revering4Blue]

As a Colts fan, I don't care about injuries. We have had our share ourselves. Seems like nobody remembers that the Colts were missing their top two RBs or their revamped O-line or that Robert Mathis wasn't there. You want a towel to cry on, I aint giving you one. It is the NFL.

The fact of the matter is that the Bengal defense did what it had to do in sorts. Bend don't break. You look at the stats and this game was a blow out. But they gave up few points. Missing receivers or not, their offense was horrid. Good teams fight through that and good QBs improvise.

Great season for the Bengals......I really wish they would have beat Pittsburgh last week. I think the home field is what they needed this week.

As a fellow Colts fan, I view it this way:

There's no question that (top-to-bottom) the Bengals have a better roster than the Colts - many teams do - but the obvious is difference is Luck at Qb for the Colts. However, even though the Colts are/were dealing with significant injuries of their own, the severity of all of the injuries on the Bengal side was simply too large, which mitigated any overall roster talent advantage the Bengals would have had, especially with the obvious disparity with QB play.




This discussion took place last year as well, but you can't call Andy Dalton a game manager. He turns the ball over way too much to fit that description.

Exactly.

[KoryMac5]

Unless AJ McCarron turns into Tom Brady I see no help on the way at the QB position.

[WVRed]

This discussion took place last year as well, but you can't call Andy Dalton a game manager. He turns the ball over way too much to fit that description.

Dalton is only as good as the weapons surrounding him, and the Bengals have done EVERYTHING to surround him with the tools to be a top flight QB. He just cannot come through when it matters, although I don't fault him today given who all was out.

The problem is, who do you replace him or draft to challenge him? I actually wouldn't mind taking a flier on RG3.

[Big Red Smokey]

Just got back from Indy. At a loss.

We are if Tubby Smith was an NFL Franchise.

Not bad enough to fire, not good enough to win anything.

Sigh

[traderumor]

No, but I don't get why so many people refuse to call this for what it is.

It's a step above mediocrity. They're relevant, and it's definitely better than the 1990's - don't get me wrong there. But when they continually no-show in prime time games and then get bounced in grand fashion each and every time they go to the playoffs, it's incredibly frustrating.

I love that they're relevant again. But I want more - I'm not satisfied with 9-10 wins each year and making the playoffs only to lose. Sadly I think Mikey is very satisfied with that.
I see dissatisfaction mixed with reality. That's the general mindset I see. Let's storm Fountain Square. Demand Mike Brown appear for tar and feathering.

[Benihana]

Hue Jackson is the worst offensive coordinator the Bengals have ever had. He needs to go back to coaching RBs only. He has no business running an NFL offense. He's awful.

Hue is by no means a good offensive coordinator, but I actually think he's probably better than the last two the Bengals have had (Gruden and Bratkowski).

Furthermore, here's what I'd do:

Of the free agents listed on the link below, the only guys Id bring back are Nugent, Malauga, Lamur, and Boling. Everyone else can take a walk. This team needs significant personnel turnover. Gresham, A.Smith, Tate, Sanzenbacher, Campbell, Still, Mays, and even Newman can go. Newman was pretty good this year but he's old and it's time for Kirkpatrick and Dennard to work their way into the rotation along with Pacman and Hall. Draft the best pass-rushing DL on the board in the first round and look for best linemen available (offensive or defensive) in Rounds 2 and 3. Unless a top WR slides to us and is phenomenal value in the second round, that might be worth taking given Jones and Eifert's uncertainty and Sanu's suckitude.

If Dalton can't turn the corner next year with Jones and Eifert back (and hopefully a full season of AJ) it's time to move on and draft a QB in 2016. And I wouldn't extend Marvins deal but I wouldn't fire him either- make him earn a renewal with a playoff win next year- otherwise he's out too. I actually do think that will be Katie's plan too.

The only guys (coaches included) that should definitively be in this team's plans post-2015 are Hill, Gio, AJ, Burfict, Zeitler and Boling. Maybe Nelson and Iloka too. Everyone else is on watch- or at least year-to-year- and that includes Dunlap and Geno who will need to earn their massive contracts in 2015.


http://www.cincyjungle.com/salary-cap-cba/2015/1/4/7491447/cincinnati-bengals-2015-free-agents-list

[wolfboy]

Dalton is only as good as the weapons surrounding him, and the Bengals have done EVERYTHING to surround him with the tools to be a top flight QB. He just cannot come through when it matters, although I don't fault him today given who all was out.

The problem is, who do you replace him or draft to challenge him? I actually wouldn't mind taking a flier on RG3.

Interesting.

[Brutus]

As a Colts fan, I don't care about injuries. We have had our share ourselves. Seems like nobody remembers that the Colts were missing their top two RBs or their revamped O-line or that Robert Mathis wasn't there. You want a towel to cry on, I aint giving you one. It is the NFL.

The fact of the matter is that the Bengal defense did what it had to do in sorts. Bend don't break. You look at the stats and this game was a blow out. But they gave up few points. Missing receivers or not, their offense was horrid. Good teams fight through that and good QBs improvise.

Great season for the Bengals......I really wish they would have beat Pittsburgh last week. I think the home field is what they needed this week.

I have a feeling that if the Colts were missing Hilton, Wayne and Fleener rather than two RBs, it would be a WHOLE different story both in Colts' fans response and actual production. The Colts missing two backs is a minimal part of the game, especially when one of them has been mediocre.

The Bengals literally are missing their top four offensive weapons. Show me a single team in the NFL that has ever has success in the playoffs while having to endure that. I doubt you'll find it. You may find teams here or there that have advanced while missing one or two guys, but you won't find a team be able to withstand losing that much fire power.

[Brutus]

For the record, who in this thread is "crying?"

I wasn't aware stating facts is considered "crying." I'm not crying nor is anyone else that I've seen. I'm stating a cold hard truth... it's next to impossible to beat great teams when you literally have your four or five best offensive players gone. It's unrealistic expectations to think a team should win under those circumstances. The Bengals had to play the hand they were dealt, fine... but people should be practical in their criticism and actually consider those circumstances before getting carried away in their zeal to chase folks with pitch forks.

[wolfboy]

For the record, who in this thread is "crying?"

I wasn't aware stating facts is considered "crying." I'm not crying nor is anyone else that I've seen. I'm stating a cold hard truth... it's next to impossible to beat great teams when you literally have your four or five best offensive players gone. It's unrealistic expectations to think a team should win under those circumstances. The Bengals had to play the hand they were dealt, fine... but people should be practical in their criticism and actually consider those circumstances before getting carried away in their zeal to chase folks with pitch forks.

I'm crying over a Hudy Delight. It's the Bengals way. Has nothing to do with injuries though....unless we're talking about decades of injury to our collective pride.

[WMR]

Dalton has done exactly zero in the playoffs to merit being given the benefit of the doubt... about anything.

It isn't as if the bed wetting today is the outlier from his other playoff abortions.

This all goes double for Marvin Lewis.

[Razor Shines]

I have a feeling that if the Colts were missing Hilton, Wayne and Fleener rather than two RBs, it would be a WHOLE different story both in Colts' fans response and actual production. The Colts missing two backs is a minimal part of the game, especially when one of them has been mediocre.

The Bengals literally are missing their top four offensive weapons. Show me a single team in the NFL that has ever has success in the playoffs while having to endure that. I doubt you'll find it. You may find teams here or there that have advanced while missing one or two guys, but you won't find a team be able to withstand losing that much fire power.

Mediocre? Whoa! Are you Richardson's agent? If you can talk him up to mediocre you'll likely get him a raise.

[nmculbreth]

There were a lot of injuries to key players, but more than anything all the injuries exposed the lack of depth within the organization... when you can't adequately replace guys like Marvin Jones, Rey Maualuga or Jermaine Gresham you're in serious trouble

[RedEye]

Man. What a depressing loss.

I really wanted this one for Marvin. I am such a fan of the culture he is building for the Bengals in every way except for the most important part for an NFL franchise (winning in the playoffs). I have no problem with him getting one more year at the helm.

I have been a big Dalton supporter in the past, but I think enough is enough. I can understand why they stuck with him for a few years; he isn't a terrible QB by any means and he has had success. But I really think the time to move on is now. I hope that Katie B. and the gang start putting in place plans for finding his replacement this off-season.

Anyway, I suppose 2015 is it for these two guys. If they don't finally end the drought, I would imagine the FO will move on to two new names in the main leadership positions on the field. If they don't, frankly they really just don't get it.

[George Foster]

For the record, who in this thread is "crying?"

I wasn't aware stating facts is considered "crying." I'm not crying nor is anyone else that I've seen. I'm stating a cold hard truth... it's next to impossible to beat great teams when you literally have your four or five best offensive players gone. It's unrealistic expectations to think a team should win under those circumstances. The Bengals had to play the hand they were dealt, fine... but people should be practical in their criticism and actually consider those circumstances before getting carried away in their zeal to chase folks with pitch forks.
I totally agree with you about this specific playoff game. But what about the last 3 years in the playoffs?

[indyscott]

The colts actually played without 3 RBs for the record. Ballard and Bradshaw were missing. Which would have been their top 2 backs. Richardson really isn't in the discussion and I'm assuming that is what the poster meant. It was also the 11th different OL combo.

[Brutus]

I totally agree with you about this specific playoff game. But what about the last 3 years in the playoffs?

I still believe, personally, three games is an awfully small sample to draw conclusions about. Fans tend to forget that playoff performances can be wildly unpredictable from a statistical standpoint. In terms of probability, the Bengals probably had about an 80 percent chance of winning one of these three games, which still leaves about 1-in-5 that they don't simply by chance. Since we're only talking three games, it could just as easily be explained away as randomness than an inability of a QB or something deeper.

I like to use Wisconsin basketball head coach Bo Ryan as an example. A lot of fans were criticizing him for not doing well in the tournament until last season. However, I calculated the probability that he should have gotten there at least once in 10 years (using Sagarin's ratings for each year and playing out each region based on those odds), and Ryan only came out to having about a 60 percent chance that he should have made a run with one of those Wisconsin teams. So basically, just a hair more than a coin flip. These things really need to be treated less anecdotally than they are IMHO.

[Stray]

I just think it's lazy to look at yesterday and say man Dalton can't win big games we need a new QB. If who is playing WR is not important at all, every team with a good QB would be paying league minimum to their receivers. It mattered a lot, you need someone to get open. Every time CBS showed replays of our routes there was nowhere to throw the ball.

Now if you wanna look at Dalton's body of work and say we need change I can understand that. There was no excuse/reason for some of his duds this year like Cleveland, although I don't put the first Indy game or the New England game on him so much since everyone was so bad it woulda been hard to tell who was actually playing worse than the others.

Previous playoff games have been pretty bad for Dalton as well as the entire team. As the face of the franchise, Dalton should rightfully get a lot of blame along with Marvin too. The first three were games we should have won imo, especially last year. This is the first one of the four that I felt like we just didn't have the players to do it.

I think we can definitely do better than Dalton and we should be open to doing so, but I think it'd be a lot easier to do worse than Dalton than people wanna admit. You can probably say the exact same thing about Marvin. If we want to upgrade, lets make sure we upgrade.

[Caveat Emperor]

He hasn't regressed. All of the Bengals' best weapons have either been out or playing at half strength all season.

He hasn't "regressed" in my mind because I didn't have a high opinion of Dalton in the first place.

But it's *really* telling that the level of discourse surrounding Dalton in the media has dropped to the same place it was with Tim Tebow -- announcers and pundits praising simple things like throwing to the right guy and not turning the ball over.

You can't win in this league, long-term, without a QB who can drop 300 / 3TDs on demand when the offense needs him to carry the mail. At this point, does anyone really think Dalton can do that? I get the "QBs don't win games" argument to a point, but the fact is that it's absolutely a QB-driven league. The teams that are winning and advancing the post-season are all teams that have guys who step up and perform when their teams need them. Andy has had a number of opportunities to show he can be that guy, and not only is he not delivering the result, he's also not showing the tools/skills that would make you believe the result is around the corner.

[Stray]

He hasn't "regressed" in my mind because I didn't have a high opinion of Dalton in the first place.

But it's *really* telling that the level of discourse surrounding Dalton in the media has dropped to the same place it was with Tim Tebow -- announcers and pundits praising simple things like throwing to the right guy and not turning the ball over.

You can't win in this league, long-term, without a QB who can drop 300 / 3TDs on demand when the offense needs him to carry the mail. At this point, does anyone really think Dalton can do that? I get the "QBs don't win games" argument to a point, but the fact is that it's absolutely a QB-driven league. The teams that are winning and advancing the post-season are all teams that have guys who step up and perform when their teams need them. Andy has had a number of opportunities to show he can be that guy, and not only is he not delivering the result, he's also not showing the tools/skills that would make you believe the result is around the corner.

Joe Flacco is the outlier in the AFC. Other than that, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and Ben Roethlisberger have been dominating the post season for a while now. It's hard to get one of those special QBs that can keep your franchise in it for a decade, and when teams do get em they usually hang onto them.

If we have the opportunity to get a QB who we think can become one of those kinds of players, we absolutely have to go for it. By now it's pretty clear Dalton will never be that kinda player, he like most QBs, he'll only be as good as the talent around him.

[Hoosier Red]

He hasn't "regressed" in my mind because I didn't have a high opinion of Dalton in the first place.

But it's *really* telling that the level of discourse surrounding Dalton in the media has dropped to the same place it was with Tim Tebow -- announcers and pundits praising simple things like throwing to the right guy and not turning the ball over.

You can't win in this league, long-term, without a QB who can drop 300 / 3TDs on demand when the offense needs him to carry the mail. At this point, does anyone really think Dalton can do that? I get the "QBs don't win games" argument to a point, but the fact is that it's absolutely a QB-driven league. The teams that are winning and advancing the post-season are all teams that have guys who step up and perform when their teams need them. Andy has had a number of opportunities to show he can be that guy, and not only is he not delivering the result, he's also not showing the tools/skills that would make you believe the result is around the corner.

That's true, but it's also true that the QB's capable of carrying the franchise simply aren't available where the Bengals are drafting. So how would you propose improving the caliber of QB?
Trade draft picks to move up in the draft? Trade draft picks to acquire a franchise QB from a team looking to change directions?

Either of these options has some negative side effects, but of course so does maintaining the status quo.

[Assembly Hall]

That's true, but it's also true that the QB's capable of carrying the franchise simply aren't available where the Bengals are drafting. So how would you propose improving the caliber of QB?
Trade draft picks to move up in the draft? Trade draft picks to acquire a franchise QB from a team looking to change directions?

Either of these options has some negative side effects, but of course so does maintaining the status quo.

That is not entirely true. Look at where guys like Aaron Rodgers, Dan Marino, and Tom Brady were selected in the draft. But I get what you are saying HR. I look at this way...the Bengals are doing something right, they are making the play-offs every year. To me, that is going in the right direction. I don't know if Dalton is the guy or not to take them to the next level. But if management feels that he is not, then they better do what ever it takes to get someone who can.

[Caveat Emperor]

That's true, but it's also true that the QB's capable of carrying the franchise simply aren't available where the Bengals are drafting. So how would you propose improving the caliber of QB?
Trade draft picks to move up in the draft? Trade draft picks to acquire a franchise QB from a team looking to change directions?

Either of these options has some negative side effects, but of course so does maintaining the status quo.

The Bengals are stuck in the same place the Houston Texans were with Matt Schaub, a guy who was good enough to make the playoffs but not good enough to do anything when they got there. It's QB Purgatory -- they win too many games to ever be in a position to draft a franchise-changing QB, but seem pretty unlikely to ever win it all with Dalton.

There's really no solution other than either waiting for the team to get tired of Dalton's act and then having a season collapse around him, or mortgaging the future to move up and take a franchise-type guy.

[Sea Ray]

There were a lot of injuries to key players, but more than anything all the injuries exposed the lack of depth within the organization... when you can't adequately replace guys like Marvin Jones, Rey Maualuga or Jermaine Gresham you're in serious trouble

It's awfully tough to have depth in the NFL due to their rules. Not even getting into the salary cap, let's look at roster sizes. You only have a 53 man roster. That means you don't have the depth to handle multiple injuries at one position...and that's exactly what the Bengals were dealt.

LB: Rey M, Burfict
WR: AJ, Marvin Jones
TE: Eifert, Gresham

With a 53 man roster you just can't stock much beyond two deep

[bucksfan2]

The Bengals are stuck in the same place the Houston Texans were with Matt Schaub, a guy who was good enough to make the playoffs but not good enough to do anything when they got there. It's QB Purgatory -- they win too many games to ever be in a position to draft a franchise-changing QB, but seem pretty unlikely to ever win it all with Dalton.

There's really no solution other than either waiting for the team to get tired of Dalton's act and then having a season collapse around him, or mortgaging the future to move up and take a franchise-type guy.

What do the Texans have now? Heck if they had a guy at Schaub's level at QB this season they are in the playoffs, not Baltimore.

I can't get mad at yesterday's game. I was mad last year, and the year when the Bengals faced Yates in the playoffs. I was upset when Kimo tore up Carson's leg and I was pretty pissed when a Mark Sanchez led Jets came into Cincy and won.

I can't get made when your 4th string RB is lining up in the slot because he is your best option there. Its not whining about injuries, its accepting the fact that the injury bug hit the Bengals hard against the Colts. With AJ on the field it opens a lot of things up. He draws coverage over the top, he takes a S out of the box, he makes the defense adjust to him. I think losing AJ later on in the week and losing Gresham the day of the game really hurt the Bengals. Does a healthy team win in Indy, I don't know, but I like my chances.

[Hoosier Red]

That is not entirely true. Look at where guys like Aaron Rodgers, Dan Marino, and Tom Brady were selected in the draft. But I get what you are saying HR. I look at this way...the Bengals are doing something right, they are making the play-offs every year. To me, that is going in the right direction. I don't know if Dalton is the guy or not to take them to the next level. But if management feels that he is not, then they better do what ever it takes to get someone who can.

When you're going back to the 1983 draft as an example, it shows that drafting franchise QB's late is clearly the exception rather than the rule.

The other problem with "QB purgatory" (I like the term CE) is that it tends to be a destructive cycle.

Because you're less likely to get a top tier QB drafting between 20 and 30, you're less likely to even draft a QB with a pick in that range because you realize you have to make the players around your mediocre quarterback that much better.

Would you feel at all comfortable with your team drafting a guy to develop for two-three years ala Aaron Rogers with the 23rd pick? How sure would you have to feel that it would pan out to make that kind of investment.

[RiverRat13]

Top 10 QBs according to DYAR and where they were drafted:

Big Ben - 1st round, 11th pick overall
Rodgers - 1.24
Manning - 1.1
Brees - 2.33
Romo - undrafted
Brady - 6.199
Ryan - 1.3
Flacco - 1.18
Rivers - 1.4
Luck - 1.1

[Hoosier Red]

It's awfully tough to have depth in the NFL due to their rules. Not even getting into the salary cap, let's look at roster sizes. You only have a 53 man roster. That means you don't have the depth to handle multiple injuries at one position...and that's exactly what the Bengals were dealt.

LB: Rey M, Burfict
WR: AJ, Marvin Jones
TE: Eifert, Gresham

With a 53 man roster you just can't stock much beyond two deep
Add Sanzenbacher to the WR list as-pardon the phrase- insult to injury.

To be fair, losing Eifert and Jones hurt, but in very different ways since they were pretty much out all season.
Losing Gresham and Green basically the day of the game was really just one bridge too far.

[Tom Servo]

Top 10 QBs according to DYAR and where they were drafted:

Big Ben - 1st round, 11th pick overall
Rodgers - 1.24
Manning - 1.1
Brees - 2.33
Romo - undrafted
Brady - 6.199
Ryan - 1.3
Flacco - 1.18
Rivers - 1.4
Luck - 1.1
Flacco/Roethlisberger type should probably be the goal. Big dude who can hurl it downfield, even if they didn't go to a 'name' school.

[Sea Ray]

Flacco/Roethlisberger type should probably be the goal. Big dude who can hurl it downfield, even if they didn't go to a 'name' school.

Would you be interested in Nick Foles if he became available?

[Hoosier Red]

Top 10 QBs according to DYAR and where they were drafted:

Big Ben - 1st round, 11th pick overall
Rodgers - 1.24
Manning - 1.1
Brees - 2.33
Romo - undrafted
Brady - 6.199
Ryan - 1.3
Flacco - 1.18
Rivers - 1.4
Luck - 1.1

One thing that jumps out at me on this list is the age of the top QB's. Only three have been in the league for fewer than 10 seasons. And only Luck has been in the league for fewer than 5.

Obviously top tier QB's can play for longer than other positions, but it's possible we'll be seeing another wave of QB's in the coming years simply out of necessity.
It's also possible that the chances for a team with a sub-"elite" QB could be improved while we're waiting for that wave.

[Tom Servo]

Would you be interested in Nick Foles if he became available?
Well I myself am a Carolina fan just here to talk football but yes. Foles is not as bad as his lower completion % and interceptions (behind a patchwork offensive line) made him look this season, though probably not as good as the ridiculous 29 TD to 2 INT rate he had in 2013. And most importantly, I definitely believe he is better than Dalton.

[Caveat Emperor]

What do the Texans have now? Heck if they had a guy at Schaub's level at QB this season they are in the playoffs, not Baltimore.


The Texans have nothing now. Same place as the Bengals: Quarterback Purgatory. Playing a dude who isn't good enough to win in the post-season or win a Super Bowl, but also isn't bad enough to secure them a top draft spot. If they had a guy like Schaub in his prime, they'd be in the same position: not good enough to win, not bad enough to get a replacement.

People can make all the injury excuses they want for Dalton -- that's part of what keeps a team in this gray area. You keep thinking "If only we get our team healthy" or "If we can only add a few more weapons..." (see: Ryan, Matt) without realizing that the inability to elevate the game of those around him is really a required trait of a modern NFL championship QB. You're buying vowels that don't solve the puzzle.

This guy explains it better than I do -- he was a former front office guy under Bruce Allen & Jon Gruden in Tampa Bay and now writes a blog / does the NFL twitter thing: http://nflphilosophy.com/qb-purgatory/

[Assembly Hall]

When you're going back to the 1983 draft as an example, it shows that drafting franchise QB's late is clearly the exception rather than the rule.

The other problem with "QB purgatory" (I like the term CE) is that it tends to be a destructive cycle.

Because you're less likely to get a top tier QB drafting between 20 and 30, you're less likely to even draft a QB with a pick in that range because you realize you have to make the players around your mediocre quarterback that much better.

Would you feel at all comfortable with your team drafting a guy to develop for two-three years ala Aaron Rogers with the 23rd pick? How sure would you have to feel that it would pan out to make that kind of investment.


'83 was a fluke year. Lots of quality QB's coming out that year.

I think Rodgers could have played right away......but #4 was still there.

Personally, I think all the pieces are in place for Cincy, minus a Pro-Bowl type QB. Nothing against Dalton. Now sometimes it takes a few years to develop...are we seeing the best that Andy's ever gonna be?

[Caveat Emperor]

'83 was a fluke year. Lots of quality QB's coming out that year.

I think Rodgers could have played right away......but #4 was still there.

Personally, I think all the pieces are in place for Cincy, minus a Pro-Bowl type QB. Nothing against Dalton. Now sometimes it takes a few years to develop...are we seeing the best that Andy's ever gonna be?

Just about every other Jeff Tedford QB had busted, badly, to that point. A lot of what Rodgers did, from down to how he held the ball prior to release, was broken down and re-worked by Green Bay's coaches.

I'd hesitate to say a dude with his skills would have busted under any circumstance, but the history wasn't on his side when he was drafted.

[WMR]

Would you be interested in Nick Foles if he became available?

Yes.

[Assembly Hall]

Just about every other Jeff Tedford QB had busted, badly, to that point. A lot of what Rodgers did, from down to how he held the ball prior to release, was broken down and re-worked by Green Bay's coaches.

I'd hesitate to say a dude with his skills would have busted under any circumstance, but the history wasn't on his side when he was drafted.

All I was saying is that I thing he could have played right away regardless of the little bugs that might have existed. He came to a good team where there was talent around him. I feel that way with the Bengals, the talent is all over the place. If they can get a young guy from the draft with skills, I think they could throw him into the "fire" right away.

[Hoosier Red]

All I was saying is that I thing he could have played right away regardless of the little bugs that might have existed. He came to a good team where there was talent around him. I feel that way with the Bengals, the talent is all over the place. If they can get a young guy from the draft with skills, I think they could throw him into the "fire" right away.

I'd agree given the right QB, but I'm curious how many fans would be willing to deal with lesser results from someone with "skills" while he developed.

[Stray]

The Texans have nothing now. Same place as the Bengals: Quarterback Purgatory. Playing a dude who isn't good enough to win in the post-season or win a Super Bowl, but also isn't bad enough to secure them a top draft spot. If they had a guy like Schaub in his prime, they'd be in the same position: not good enough to win, not bad enough to get a replacement.

People can make all the injury excuses they want for Dalton -- that's part of what keeps a team in this gray area. You keep thinking "If only we get our team healthy" or "If we can only add a few more weapons..." (see: Ryan, Matt) without realizing that the inability to elevate the game of those around him is really a required trait of a modern NFL championship QB. You're buying vowels that don't solve the puzzle.

This guy explains it better than I do -- he was a former front office guy under Bruce Allen & Jon Gruden in Tampa Bay and now writes a blog / does the NFL twitter thing: http://nflphilosophy.com/qb-purgatory/

We're a lot better off than the Ryan Fitzpatrick led Texans. I kinda agree with your overall point about Dalton tho, that he isn't good enough to elevate the play of those around him. Everybody is looking for those QBs tho, and they're rare.

I don't think it's so much making injury excuses as it's pointing out the reality. Like you said, Dalton isn't good enough to elevate the play of those around him. Tom Brady is going to the HOF and couldn't elevate the play of Brandon Tate enough for the Patriots to care about keeping him, so Dalton definitely wasn't going to able to turn Tate into a star. We had Greg Little jogging out routes, Tate falling down on go routes, all 5 foot whatever of Rex Burkhead lining up at receiver (and playing well), and Sanu who couldn't get open the entire game. Nobody is going to mistake Dalton for a QB who can take that group on the road and beat a good team. Not even an excuse since I'm sure most of us knew before the game that if we couldn't run the ball we would lose. Jeremy Hill having a huge game was our shot.

As long as we live in a universe where Joe Flacco won a Superbowl, I will be convinced that a talented team with a mediocre QB is capable of getting hot and making a run. More important than getting hot at the right time is getting healthy at the right time, and we did the opposite of that.

I'm all for getting a better QB the first chance we get, but until then I'd like to keep winning a lot more games than we lose. Complaining about a playoff loss beats complaining about meaningless wins that hurt your draft spot.

[Sea Ray]

I do think the Bengals should be looking at other options but keep AD until someone else outplays him

[Kingspoint]

Dalton will only make $7M next season. Somebody else playing QB for the Bengals next season isn't even an option.

But, there's no time left to lollygag around. They have to put the QB in the Bengals' uniform this off-season who is going to challenge Dalton for the 2016 job. And, jokes like A.J. McCarron aren't realistic options.

[Hoosier Red]

I do think the Bengals should be looking at other options but keep AD until someone else outplays him

Unless they find someone in the draft, that may be easier said than done. And finding someone in the draft means using a draft spot that will chip away at the depth elsewhere.
Just speculating, but I don't think there is anyone available who is a clear upgrade. Anyone capable of beating out Dalton is likely going to see other opportunities with a better chance at starting.

[Sea Ray]

Unless they find someone in the draft, that may be easier said than done. And finding someone in the draft means using a draft spot that will chip away at the depth elsewhere.
Just speculating, but I don't think there is anyone available who is a clear upgrade. Anyone capable of beating out Dalton is likely going to see other opportunities with a better chance at starting.

I doubt they'll find someone but I'd like to see them try. I agree the chances of a decent upgrade are minimal but it's all we've got right now. As I stated earlier, even with the advantage of hindsight there were few if any upgrades available to them in the past 3 yrs. I'm fine with bringing in a flier like RG3 or Nick Foles but I doubt we'll get lucky enough to stumble upon a top 10 QB

[villain612]

I am curious as to how McCarron would perform.

He was pretty good at being a game manager at Alabama.

[Caveat Emperor]

Honestly, if they ran the same offense with McCarron, I don't know how different the results would be. They were seriously protecting Dalton down the stretch, leaning heavily on the run game and not asking him to go downfield with the ball (outside of the occasional 50/50 ball deep).

The game plans were alarmingly risk averse and alarmingly vanilla. I assume this is because they had no confidence in Dalton playing well

[Assembly Hall]

I'd agree given the right QB, but I'm curious how many fans would be willing to deal with lesser results from someone with "skills" while he developed.

My answer to that would be that there are NFL ready QB's at the college level. I admit they are few and far between, but they are out there. If Cincy decides that route, they need to be pouring over some tapes.

[Assembly Hall]

Dalton will only make $7M next season. Somebody else playing QB for the Bengals next season isn't even an option.

But, there's no time left to lollygag around. They have to put the QB in the Bengals' uniform this off-season who is going to challenge Dalton for the 2016 job. And, jokes like A.J. McCarron aren't realistic options.

Hows about a guy like Kyle Orton to fill the short term void?

[bucksfan2]

Andy Dalton isn't a top tier NFL QB, but I would argue that he is a bonafide starting QB. I find suggestions that AJ McCarron could do the same, laughable. AJ McCarron has as much of a chance at being successful in the NFL as he does at having a successful reality TV show. Look at the amount of poor QB churn by clubs that don't have one. Look what happens when you miss in drafting an NFL QB.

I wish the Bengals would have a top flight QB. I wish they would have a guy who could turn a mediocre team into a great team, but those guys are few and far between. You no longer are going to find those guys on the FA market, and more often than not you are going to take a big risk in drafting a new guy. I would argue the path the Bengals should go is the same thing as the Pats are doing, draft the heir apparent and groom him. But even when you do that you are taking substantial risk, drafting a position that isn't of need early in the draft when you need impact players.

[Sea Ray]

Honestly, if they ran the same offense with McCarron, I don't know how different the results would be. They were seriously protecting Dalton down the stretch, leaning heavily on the run game and not asking him to go downfield with the ball (outside of the occasional 50/50 ball deep).

The game plans were alarmingly risk averse and alarmingly vanilla. I assume this is because they had no confidence in Dalton playing well

Maybe I'm just being overly optimistic but I wouldn't rule out McCarron being worse than AD yet. If he has a higher football IQ and/or can throw a more accurate deep ball, he'd have an advantage over Dalton.

I think both of those things are weaknesses in AD's game. He says "you know" more than any other starting QB that I know of in post game press conferences. I also see that Hue has coached him to only look at one or two reads per play. That tells me that IQ has not impressed the coaches

[Sea Ray]

Hows about a guy like Kyle Orton to fill the short term void?

He'd do OK replacing Jason Campbell but I want a backup that can push AD for playing time. Didn't Orton just retire?

[Tom Servo]

Dalton will only make $7M next season. Somebody else playing QB for the Bengals next season isn't even an option.

That only 7 mill could potentially make him attractive though to teams looking for a QB like NYJ, Buffalo, Houston, Cleveland, etc.


And yeah, McCarron ain't no good.

[Kingspoint]

Hows about a guy like Kyle Orton to fill the short term void?

I have no hope for the Bengals with Hue Jackson as the Offensive Coordinator. Don't think it makes a "Hill" of beans who plays QB, because Jackson will misuse Hill and Gio. Marvin is still the Head Coach and will have his team utterly unprepared if they're lucky enough to reach the playoffs again...something I highly doubt they'll achieve.

Baltimore and Pittsburgh have completed their rebuilds and are locks for the playoffs next season. That leaves one Wild Card for the Bengals to try to get (Divison Titles belong to the Ravens and Steelers again). Denver, New England and Indy are pretty much locks to win their Divisions. That leaves the Bengals trying to get past KC, San Diego, Houston, Miami and others. I just don't think the stars can align that well for it to happen.

Is Orton better than Dalton for 16 games? No. Not with Hue Jackson as his O.C. If Hue can make Dalton regress as much as he did, I envision a much poorer version of what we saw of Orton this season.

[Assembly Hall]

He'd do OK replacing Jason Campbell but I want a backup that can push AD for playing time. Didn't Orton just retire?

I don't know. He is younger than Brees. Both Purdue grads. I threw his name out there because he has played on some good teams, and has play-off experience.

[Sea Ray]

That only 7 mill could potentially make him attractive though to teams looking for a QB like NYJ, Buffalo, Houston, Cleveland, etc.


And yeah, McCarron ain't no good.

Are you suggesting he be dealt before we secure a replacement? I see no reason to deal him until someone beats him out

[Sea Ray]

I don't know. He is younger than Brees. Both Purdue grads. I threw his name out there because he has played on some good teams, and has play-off experience.

He retired

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/kyle-orton-retires-10-nfl-seasons-article-1.2059552

[Kingspoint]

That only 7 mill could potentially make him attractive though to teams looking for a QB like NYJ, Buffalo, Houston, Cleveland, etc.


And yeah, McCarron ain't no good.

Trading up in the first round isn't something that Mike Brown attempts. I think it's only happened twice in his life.

I love the idea of trading Dalton to one of those teams and acquiring their 1st Round pick.

It's so depressing for me to discuss the off-season right now. I have no hope for the Bengals. It's such a rinse-and-repeat process. I don't know if I can do it anymore. It's been a terrible waste of my life and my time following the Bengals.

[traderumor]

Trading up in the first round isn't something that Mike Brown attempts. I think it's only happened twice in his life.

I love the idea of trading Dalton to one of those teams and acquiring their 1st Round pick.

It's so depressing for me to discuss the off-season right now. I have no hope for the Bengals. It's such a rinse-and-repeat process. I don't know if I can do it anymore. It's been a terrible waste of my life and my time following the Bengals.I think when he did it netted Kijana Carter and Akili Smith, so maybe its good that he doesn't go this route.

[Assembly Hall]

I have no hope for the Bengals with Hue Jackson as the Offensive Coordinator. Don't think it makes a "Hill" of beans who plays QB, because Jackson will misuse Hill and Gio. Marvin is still the Head Coach and will have his team utterly unprepared if they're lucky enough to reach the playoffs again...something I highly doubt they'll achieve.

Baltimore and Pittsburgh have completed their rebuilds and are locks for the playoffs next season. That leaves one Wild Card for the Bengals to try to get (Divison Titles belong to the Ravens and Steelers again). Denver, New England and Indy are pretty much locks to win their Divisions. That leaves the Bengals trying to get past KC, San Diego, Houston, Miami and others. I just don't think the stars can align that well for it to happen.

Is Orton better than Dalton for 16 games? No. Not with Hue Jackson as his O.C. If Hue can make Dalton regress as much as he did, I envision a much poorer version of what we saw of Orton this season.

You know King it just dawned on me with your post. You talking about the Bengals fighting for a wild card berth next year. The one team you mentioned was San Diego. They have been "under achievers" for years and their owner is a tight arsz. Hows about Phillip Rivers in stripes?

[Tom Servo]

Are you suggesting he be dealt before we secure a replacement?
If you get back a good enough offer, I would. You've seen the ceiling for Dalton.

[Kingspoint]

21 snaps for Hill

41 snaps for Gio


When your O.C. decides that's the best usage of the talent, it doesn't matter who plays Quarterback. May as well trade Dalton for a pick and add another pick. Dalton warrants a 1st Round pick as his regression can easily be associated with the promotion of Hue to O.C. Another team could look at him and see more potential than he has under Marvin's tutelage. Heck, Gruden may want him in D.C.

[Kingspoint]

You know King it just dawned on me with your post. You talking about the Bengals fighting for a wild card berth next year. The one team you mentioned was San Diego. They have been "under achievers" for years and their owner is a tight arsz. Hows about Phillip Rivers in stripes?

I'd love to have Phillip Rivers, but he's their best asset. He'd cost us two 1st Round picks and Andy Dalton. I'd do it, but it still won't matter with Hue Jackson and Marvin in charge.


Personally, I'd do what Seattle did. When they needed a QB, they did three things in the same season....drafted one...signed the best FA, and put together a trade and then let camp sort everything out. Wilson was the winner. Unfortunately, Marvin Lewis is no Pete Carroll. Best player means nothing to Lewis. Veteran status is more important. Same is true for Hue Jackson. So, with two idiots as Coaches, it once again comes down to it not mattering who plays QB, as this franchise is going the wrong direction. Their only chance was when Zimmer was here as D.C., and then they blew the opportunity to promote him to H.C. The Vikings' future is bright. He already made a huge turnaround of that franchise in just his first season.

[Hoosier Red]

21 snaps for Hill

41 snaps for Gio


When your O.C. decides that's the best usage of the talent, it doesn't matter who plays Quarterback. May as well trade Dalton for a pick and add another pick. Dalton warrants a 1st Round pick as his regression can easily be associated with the promotion of Hue to O.C. Another team could look at him and see more potential than he has under Marvin's tutelage. Heck, Gruden may want him in D.C.

IIRC Hill hurt his ankle.
Plus once it got to be more of a passing downs, it probably made more sense to have Gio out there.

[Hoosier Red]

You know King it just dawned on me with your post. You talking about the Bengals fighting for a wild card berth next year. The one team you mentioned was San Diego. They have been "under achievers" for years and their owner is a tight arsz. Hows about Phillip Rivers in stripes?

When I brought up the trading lotsa picks for a QB, I had either him or Drew Brees in mind. Unfortunately, both the Saints and Chargers are close enough that they probably aren't thinking of a full scale reboot.

[Assembly Hall]

When I brought up the trading lotsa picks for a QB, I had either him or Drew Brees in mind. Unfortunately, both the Saints and Chargers are close enough that they probably aren't thinking of a full scale reboot.

You know it is funny you say that. I had Brees in mind as well. But like you I aint too sure the Saints are ready for the rebuilding mode. Everybody in that division is a contender these days. San Diego, on the other hand, has a history of getting rid of guys in their prime to save money. I look at the AFC west and I don't know if the Chargers are going to be a play-off team for the next few years. Manning is at Denver and Andy Reid is the coach at KC. I wouldn't be too sure that the Chargers wouldn't listen to a deal involving Rivers. Just my thoughts.

[MWM]

I think trying to debate what one piece is responsible for the lack of playoff success is futile. I don't believe it's impossible to win in the playoffs with Dalton. I think it will be challenging, but I think it's possible with the right coaching. Similarly, a team with a great QB can win the playoffs (assuming an adequate defense), even without strong offensive coaching.

Just my opinion, but I think the problem is a team, from coaching down to the offense and defense, that doesn't have anything about it that's great. AJ Green is great, but a great receiver in an average or bad offense isn't going to get you over the top. If you're going to have a guy like Dalton as the QB, you better have great offensive coaching. If you're not going to have a great offensive coaching, you better have a great QB. As it stands now, they have nothing opposing teams have to really worry about other than one great receiver. They're not worried about creative game planning, or great players they have to stop.

I felt like when Zimmer was around, that was the one real competitive advantage the team had. Now that he's gone, I can't point to a single thing this team has, other than AJ Green, that's a real competitive strength vs the average NFL team. You have to have something you are great at. It can be coaching, or players. But you can't have neither, which is what the Bengals have. They have plenty of good players, that great coaching could win big with, IMO. Some organizations have won with great coaching and only a couple of good players. Some have won with a lot of great players, even without great coaching. You put New England's coaching staff with Cincinnati's roster and I think you have a real contender.

I actually think Marvin Lewis is a pretty good head coach. But his strengths are not tactics. I really think a Zimmer-like offensive coordinator would make this team a legit contender. They have a lot of talent on offense, even with Dalton at QB. Just like in the business world, you can make money by being average to pretty good at a few things. But if you want to be at the top of your industry, you have to have something that you're great at, that sets you apart from the others. It could be any number of things, but the key is to be better than anyone else at that thing. The Bengals organization is a lot of "just ok" right now.

[Assembly Hall]

That was a fine read MWM. The only thing I would argue with is that the Bengals receiving corps is as solid as any in the league. Give Eifert some time.

[dabvu2498]

Best player means nothing to Lewis. Veteran status is more important.

Dalton started as a rookie.

[Kingspoint]

Dalton started as a rookie.

There's always exceptions. But, Palmer had already said that he was never going to play another down for the Bengals, so Dalton became the Veteran by default when they drafted him. There was no Veteran already in place at QB, so this example doesn't fit the mold of playing the incumbent over the newcomer when the newcomer is better.

[Oxilon]

Both the coaching and QB on this team are average. And the results have just been that over the past several years. Average wouldn't cut it anywhere else in the NFL, but after what Cincinnati went through in the 90's, I guess a good portion have become apathetic and/or 'Bungalized' and are content with the status quo.

It's time to move on. Could we get worse? Absolutely. But the reason to play is to win the championship and Marvin can't get that done. Cut bait.

[Chip R]

From Gregg Easterbrook's TMQ column today:


After last year's Cincinnati postseason flameout, I noted that as Lewis sent in the kicking unit, Andy Dalton passively trudged off the field: Brett Favre would have demanded the coach go for it. "Next season, Dalton needs to become a leader," your columnist opined. Sunday, when Lewis sent in the punting unit on fourth-and-short in Indianapolis territory, Dalton passively trudged off the field. Wonder why Dalton is 3-11 in playoff and primetime games? At this point Cincinnati backers must accept: Dalton is never going to become a leader.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/TMQWildCard150106/the-advantage-home-tuesday-morning-quarterback

[Kingspoint]

IIRC Hill hurt his ankle.
Plus once it got to be more of a passing downs, it probably made more sense to have Gio out there.

Hill's ankle wasn't hurt enough to justify the carries split. Nor did the score of the game justify the carries split. Whether it was a passing down or a running down did not justify the carries split.

[JayBruceFan]

Dalton is not and will never be Brett Favre. Favre was a killer.

[Kingspoint]

From Rotoworld w/ Rotoworld comments:

Bengals OC Hue Jackson will interview for the Bills' head-coaching vacancy on Wednesday.

We already knew Jackson was a candidate to replace "St." Doug Marrone, but now we have a date for his interview. Lions DC Teryl Austin is scheduled to meet with Bills officials on Saturday. The team is also reportedly interested in Colts OC Pep Hamilton and 49ers OC Greg Roman.

Source: Buffalo News


I hope he gets the job, but he's probably just satisfying the Rooney Rule. 10 to 1, they already know who they want and just need to satisfy the Rooney Rule now, so they can then make the hire. We'll know if Jackson is the last interview before they pick someone else.

Why isn't there ever any talk of other teams wanting Marvin Lewis...trying to lure him away from the Bengals? Certainly Mike Brown hasn't made Lewis the highest paid HC, so the opportunity to take him from the Bengals has always been there.

[Joseph]

Marvin has no reason to leave. He's well paid and has enough cache in the organization that no other team would really even bother.

[KoryMac5]

I can really only remember a team trying to get another coach twice, I remember it happened with Parcells and it happened with Gruden other than that teams usually don't poach head coaches. That being said Marvin is not the issue, even with his flaws. The biggest issue I see especially being in the AFC is the Bengals don't have the QB that can lead you past the franchise guys like Brady, Manning, and Luck. Those guys are elite at that position and can make up for shortcomings elsewhere. Dalton can't do that. So without an elite defense, the team becomes mediocre at best. The other major issue is the erosion of Geno Atkins. He's getting paid a lot of coin to be average. I was very disappointed with the defense this year. The draft needs to shore up our defensive line.

[Caveat Emperor]

From Rotoworld w/ Rotoworld comments:

Bengals OC Hue Jackson will interview for the Bills' head-coaching vacancy on Wednesday.

We already knew Jackson was a candidate to replace "St." Doug Marrone, but now we have a date for his interview. Lions DC Teryl Austin is scheduled to meet with Bills officials on Saturday. The team is also reportedly interested in Colts OC Pep Hamilton and 49ers OC Greg Roman.

Source: Buffalo News


I hope he gets the job, but he's probably just satisfying the Rooney Rule. 10 to 1, they already know who they want and just need to satisfy the Rooney Rule now, so they can then make the hire. We'll know if Jackson is the last interview before they pick someone else.

Why isn't there ever any talk of other teams wanting Marvin Lewis...trying to lure him away from the Bengals? Certainly Mike Brown hasn't made Lewis the highest paid HC, so the opportunity to take him from the Bengals has always been there.

Part of the reason why Marvin has "job for life" status is because of his nearly unwavering commitment to Brown and the organization. He'd be a fool to entertain other offers if his goal is to remain employed as an NFL head coach for as long as possible.

[Kingspoint]

I hope he gets the job, but he's probably just satisfying the Rooney Rule. 10 to 1, they already know who they want and just need to satisfy the Rooney Rule now, so they can then make the hire. We'll know if Jackson is the last interview before they pick someone else.



Looks to have been a legitimate interview as Rex Ryan was interviewed after Jackson. Buffalo is interviewing everyone.

[Stray]

I've changed my mind into wanting Hue and everyone back next year. We saw what he did with our running game, and our passing game just got gutted this year.

Dalton is Dalton, gonna be as good as the talent around him. Injuries to Jones, Eifert, Gresham, Green, Wright, and Sanzenbacher... that's 6 of the 7 top non RB receiving targets this team has, not to mention losing Hawkins to the Browns. They were all playing hurt or not playing at all for most or a good portion of the season. So I don't think the passing game under Hue was ever given a fair shot and maybe we can at least keep half of those guys healthy next year.

Not going to put the playoff loss on Dalton since it'd be silly to try to pretend he's something he's not, he isn't good enough to carry the weapons he had that game. But I will say that the leadership and fire from him is disappointing. Instead of that blank stare like wow how are we going to move the ball, I'd like to see him get mad. Heck even if it doesn't change anything, just to show us that he cares...since I'm sure he does. Maybe just not his personality, but I like fiery QBs.

Next season should be his make or break year. You have to make a decision after that. I'm not going to say he has to win a playoff game to secure his job since the NFL is weird and crazy stuff happens, but he needs to show something that he hasn't shown in his first four seasons. He can't be the future of this team if his career has leveled off or is regressing.

Other significant problems include the well paid Geno Atkins who was way worse at his job than Andy Dalton was at his this year, and the defensive line in general. People say elite QBs win in the playoffs, I say if you don't have one you better be able to get after the other team's elite QB. That's how NY won Superbowls and how Baltimore's defense has regularly taken down the game's best when it matters.

[Benihana]

This will never happen because the Bengals don't pursue premier free agents...
BUT
Signing Ndamukong Suh could be an amazing catalyst to revamping the Bengals this offseason.

Consider:
- The Bengals, over the last five years, have a horrible history of drafting d-linemen early in the Draft. Since drafting Carlos Dunlap in the second round of 2010, the Bengals have spent two second round picks and two third round picks on Devon Still, Margus Hunt, Brandon Thompson and Will Clarke. Of those, only Thompson has shown any kind of NFL promise. Still and Hunt have been total busts. Clarke still has a year or two to show something, but I ended the year as unimpressed by him as I was when they drafted him.

- The Bengals NEED to significantly upgrade the defensive line, and the pass rush specifically. A huge part of this has to be a return to form from Geno Atkins, but new personnel is needed as well. Robert Geathers and Domata Peko are washed up - their contributions to this team are off the field only. Still should be let go. Hunt is on the bubble as far as I am concerned. Atkins and Dunlap need to play up to their huge contracts. Thompson and Gilberry are solid role players but nothing more.

- Signing Suh would allow the Bengals the flexibility to draft the "Best Player Available" in the top two rounds - whether that's a pass-rushing DE, an OLB (we need an impact guy to play alongside Burfict), an Offensive Lineman (Whitworth and Smith could be entering their final years), a WR (Bengals still need a #2 as far as I'm concerned), or of course, a QB. I doubt we draft a QB in the first round unless there is an Aaron Rodgers-type freefall, but I believe taking one in the second round could be smart if the right guy is there. Problem is, we have immediate needs on both lines, and signing Suh would go a huge ways toward plugging one of those.

Without the signing of an impact d-lineman like Suh, I believe the Bengals have to forego all those other needs and draft a pass-rushing D-lineman in the first round, almost no matter what. And that's not a good position to be in entering the Draft, especially when the top 5 DL are all projected to go in the top 15, before the Bengals are on the clock.

[Assembly Hall]

Let me ask you guys a question. If you were to rank all 32 starting QB's in the league, where would Dalton fall?

[Kingspoint]

Let me ask you guys a question. If you were to rank all 32 starting QB's in the league, where would Dalton fall?

Last year 14-15, and based on his projected growth with a new Offensive Coordinator to bring another perspective, and the growth pattern he'd been showing his first three years, I expected him to be #10.

I don't judge a player based on what injuries to other players happen when they are around (unless they are the cause of the injuries, such is Dalton's case when he threw high once too often to Green), but what they actually do with the players they are working with. Having a healthy Jones and Eifert wouldn't have made Dalton better, it just would have given him better numbers.

This year, I'd rank Dalton about 20-22.

Stray, I don't know why you keep knocking Geno Atkins. He was recovering from major ACL surgery. Coming back from that takes a minimum of 12 months. His surgery was Week 9 of 2013. He played as well as could be expected.

[Kingspoint]

Suh should be kicked out of the league. I've known him since he was in grade school. He was at the same schools and the same year as my oldest son. He's a poor excuse for a human being. I want nothing to do with him.

[Benihana]

Let me ask you guys a question. If you were to rank all 32 starting QB's in the league, where would Dalton fall?

Probably in the 17-20 range. At a minimum, I'd rather have the following 16 over Dalton

TOP TIER - the true Franchise guys
1. Brady
2. Rodgers
3. Brees
4. P.Manning
5. Luck

SECOND TIER - on his best days, Dalton might be scratching the bottom of this list, but generally these guys are all easily better
6. Roethlisberger
7. Romo
8. Rivers
9. Wilson
10. Foles
11. Ryan
12. Newton

THIRD TIER - skill-wise and consistency wise on par with Dalton, but perform significantly better in the clutch
13. Kaepernick
14. E.Manning
15. Flacco
16. Stafford

FOURTH TIER - ON PAR WITH DALTON
17. A.Smith
18. Tannehill
19. C.Palmer
20. J.Cutler?

FIFTH TIER - I'd rather have Dalton
21. D.Carr (he could move up)
22. R.Fitzpatrick/R.Mallett
23. Z.Mettenberger
24. B.Bortles
25. T.Bridgewater
26. RGIII
27. Whoever plays for the Bills
28. Whoever plays for the Rams
29. Whoever plays for the Bucs
30. J.Manziel
31. G.Smith

[Assembly Hall]

I have no arguments with your rankings Benihana. Mine would be a tad different but not much. I am really curious as to what guys think about 4 QB's in particular. Those 4 are Big Ben, Flacco, Eli, and Tannehill.

[bucksfan2]

@ Benihana overall it is a good list.

Foles is way to high, there were rumors that Philly was going to replace him with Sanchez before he got hurt. His mirage of 2013 is firmly in the rear view mirror.

Kapernick is close to being out of the league than he is at being a top 15 QB. This entire season you heard analysts say that he is poor in the pocket and doesn't do a good job of reading the defense.

I don't think all that highly of Newton. If you contain him in the pocket he is ordinary, his ability to run makes him dangerous, but his inability to avid hits and nagging injuries hurt. Basically the way I view it:
1. Rodgers
2. Luck
3. Brady
4. Brees
5. Romo
6. P Manning
7. Rivers
8. Wilson
9. Big Ben
10. Stafford
11. Ryan

I think those guys you can pay franchise money to and be ok with what you get back. I think the end of the road is very near for P Manning, I am curious about Brees and his season this year. The second group of people I would lump together would be the guys who are legit starting QB's in the NFL. Guys like:

Flacco
E Manning
Dalton (weaker arm than most in this tier)
Cutler
A. Smith (although he didn't have a TD pass to a WR this season)
Kapernick (Who is slipping mightily)
Palmer
Tannehill
Newton

The rest are either too young, crap shoots, or guys who are backups who are thrust into the starting roll. Brian Hoyer is a perfect example of a backup thrust into a starting roll, he can win games but really is exposed over the course of 16 games. The Bengals could do better, no doubt, but the could do a lot worse. I am not going to get all over Andy Dalton this season, especially when his worst losses were without his best targets.

[Benihana]

@ Benihana overall it is a good list.

Foles is way to high, there were rumors that Philly was going to replace him with Sanchez before he got hurt. His mirage of 2013 is firmly in the rear view mirror.

Kapernick is close to being out of the league than he is at being a top 15 QB. This entire season you heard analysts say that he is poor in the pocket and doesn't do a good job of reading the defense.

I don't think all that highly of Newton. If you contain him in the pocket he is ordinary, his ability to run makes him dangerous, but his inability to avid hits and nagging injuries hurt. Basically the way I view it:
1. Rodgers
2. Luck
3. Brady
4. Brees
5. Romo
6. P Manning
7. Rivers
8. Wilson
9. Big Ben
10. Stafford
11. Ryan

I think those guys you can pay franchise money to and be ok with what you get back. I think the end of the road is very near for P Manning, I am curious about Brees and his season this year. The second group of people I would lump together would be the guys who are legit starting QB's in the NFL. Guys like:

Flacco
E Manning
Dalton (weaker arm than most in this tier)
Cutler
A. Smith (although he didn't have a TD pass to a WR this season)
Kapernick (Who is slipping mightily)
Palmer
Tannehill
Newton

The rest are either too young, crap shoots, or guys who are backups who are thrust into the starting roll. Brian Hoyer is a perfect example of a backup thrust into a starting roll, he can win games but really is exposed over the course of 16 games. The Bengals could do better, no doubt, but the could do a lot worse. I am not going to get all over Andy Dalton this season, especially when his worst losses were without his best targets.

I don't necessarily disagree with how you group them, but at this point I think you have to take Flacco, Kaepernick and E.Manning over Dalton. Consistent or not (and none of them are), but the former three have shown they can win the big game and take you deep into the playoffs. Dalton has shown that he can't. That is all the difference in the world when talking about a QB. I just think Newton is all-around more talented than Dalton.

Then what you're left with is the same four guys I'd group together with Dalton - Palmer, Tannehill, Smith, and Cutler. That is Dalton's peer-group, and unfortunately it's not all that impressive. None of those guys have ever carried their teams deep into the playoffs. None of them will ever challenge for a passing (or at least QBR) title. And unfortunately, none of them will ever probably challenge for a Super Bowl title, either.

[Hoosier Red]

Let me ask you guys a question. If you were to rank all 32 starting QB's in the league, where would Dalton fall?

Top of the 2nd half.
Somewhere between 16-20.

Could definitely replace him, but it would take money and/or a high draft pick to do it.

[Kingspoint]

Newton isn't even the best Quarterback on his own team.

[Assembly Hall]

Tannehill is quite intriguing. I think if he had the pieces around him, he would excel. Cincy has the offensive pieces.

[Sea Ray]

This will never happen because the Bengals don't pursue premier free agents...
BUT
Signing Ndamukong Suh could be an amazing catalyst to revamping the Bengals this offseason.

Consider:
- The Bengals, over the last five years, have a horrible history of drafting d-linemen early in the Draft. Since drafting Carlos Dunlap in the second round of 2010, the Bengals have spent two second round picks and two third round picks on Devon Still, Margus Hunt, Brandon Thompson and Will Clarke. Of those, only Thompson has shown any kind of NFL promise. Still and Hunt have been total busts. Clarke still has a year or two to show something, but I ended the year as unimpressed by him as I was when they drafted him.

- The Bengals NEED to significantly upgrade the defensive line, and the pass rush specifically. A huge part of this has to be a return to form from Geno Atkins, but new personnel is needed as well. Robert Geathers and Domata Peko are washed up - their contributions to this team are off the field only. Still should be let go. Hunt is on the bubble as far as I am concerned. Atkins and Dunlap need to play up to their huge contracts. Thompson and Gilberry are solid role players but nothing more.

- Signing Suh would allow the Bengals the flexibility to draft the "Best Player Available" in the top two rounds - whether that's a pass-rushing DE, an OLB (we need an impact guy to play alongside Burfict), an Offensive Lineman (Whitworth and Smith could be entering their final years), a WR (Bengals still need a #2 as far as I'm concerned), or of course, a QB. I doubt we draft a QB in the first round unless there is an Aaron Rodgers-type freefall, but I believe taking one in the second round could be smart if the right guy is there. Problem is, we have immediate needs on both lines, and signing Suh would go a huge ways toward plugging one of those.

Without the signing of an impact d-lineman like Suh, I believe the Bengals have to forego all those other needs and draft a pass-rushing D-lineman in the first round, almost no matter what. And that's not a good position to be in entering the Draft, especially when the top 5 DL are all projected to go in the top 15, before the Bengals are on the clock.

Suh would be huge to anyone's D-line but why do you think Detroit hasn't already signed him? Maybe it's because he wants over $20mil/yr...That doesn't work for any good NFL team.

[Sea Ray]

@ Benihana overall it is a good list.

Foles is way to high, there were rumors that Philly was going to replace him with Sanchez before he got hurt. His mirage of 2013 is firmly in the rear view mirror.

Kapernick is close to being out of the league than he is at being a top 15 QB. This entire season you heard analysts say that he is poor in the pocket and doesn't do a good job of reading the defense.

I don't think all that highly of Newton. If you contain him in the pocket he is ordinary, his ability to run makes him dangerous, but his inability to avid hits and nagging injuries hurt. Basically the way I view it:
1. Rodgers
2. Luck
3. Brady
4. Brees
5. Romo
6. P Manning
7. Rivers
8. Wilson
9. Big Ben
10. Stafford
11. Ryan

I think those guys you can pay franchise money to and be ok with what you get back. I think the end of the road is very near for P Manning, I am curious about Brees and his season this year. The second group of people I would lump together would be the guys who are legit starting QB's in the NFL. Guys like:

Flacco
E Manning
Dalton (weaker arm than most in this tier)
Cutler
A. Smith (although he didn't have a TD pass to a WR this season)
Kapernick (Who is slipping mightily)
Palmer
Tannehill
Newton

The rest are either too young, crap shoots, or guys who are backups who are thrust into the starting roll. Brian Hoyer is a perfect example of a backup thrust into a starting roll, he can win games but really is exposed over the course of 16 games. The Bengals could do better, no doubt, but the could do a lot worse. I am not going to get all over Andy Dalton this season, especially when his worst losses were without his best targets.

It's taken Romo ten yrs to get to this point and the fans of Detroit think that Stafford has taken them as far as he can just like we see with AD.

[Stray]

Gotta try to get Dick Lebeau to join our coaching staff in some way shape or form.

[MWM]

I don't want Suh on the Bengals, I don't care how good he is.

[KoryMac5]

Suh will break the bank, too much cake for the Bengals to dish out.

[Razor Shines]

I have a feeling that if the Colts were missing Hilton, Wayne and Fleener rather than two RBs, it would be a WHOLE different story both in Colts' fans response and actual production. The Colts missing two backs is a minimal part of the game, especially when one of them has been mediocre.

.
And Richardson is a healthy scratch this week.

[Sea Ray]

Gotta try to get Dick Lebeau to join our coaching staff in some way shape or form.

I have to believe that LeBeau thinks enough is enough and wants to retire. Is there an inside story here?

- - - Updated - - -


Suh will break the bank, too much cake for the Bengals to dish out.

Before the injury Geno Atkins was every bit Suh's equal. Their goal should be to get Geno fully recovered

[Stray]

I have to believe that LeBeau thinks enough is enough and wants to retire. Is there an inside story here?


He made sure to point out that he was resigning, not retiring. Doesn't sound like he's finished coaching yet.

Could be a DC opening in Arizona soon, and that would be a good fit you'd think. But if he can't get a good DC job, you'd have to think the Bengals have a good chance to get him. Him and Mike are close.

[bucksfan2]

Dick LeBeau is 77 years old. I don't know how long he can keep up with coaching in the NFL. I would pass, even though I think he is a great defensive mind, I just don't think now is the time to bring him in.

[WVRed]

I don't want Suh on the Bengals, I don't care how good he is.

We could never talk about how dirty the Steelers are ever again.

[Tony Cloninger]

Dick likes the 3-4 and it did not work the 2nd time around here in 1997+ when Bruce Coslet brought him in.

Maybe now with better scouting and people making the personnel decisions...it would work. However Marvin seems to not be able to draft a decent LB to save his life. They are better with UFA but you can have too many of those and they are not usually a good thing.

[traderumor]

Dick likes the 3-4 and it did not work the 2nd time around here in 1997+ when Bruce Coslet brought him in.

Maybe now with better scouting and people making the personnel decisions...it would work. However Marvin seems to not be able to draft a decent LB to save his life. They are better with UFA but you can have too many of those and they are not usually a good thing.He drafted Burfict.

[Hoosier Red]

He drafted Burfict.

Actually he was signed after the draft I believe.

[traderumor]

Actually he was signed after the draft I believe.Does that matter with the point being made?

[Tony Cloninger]

He drafted Burfict.

One guy out of how many years here. That was my point. A lot of mediocrity in that position and a 3-4 defense, which Dick L would be running....that needs a lot more than the mediocre LB's that this team has drafted.

I do not think Dick is ever coming back to Cincinnati anyways or that they are going to a 3-4, but it still does not change the issue of Marvin's inability to draft and develop LB's. You can throw in Thurman as well along with Vontez and that is it.

[traderumor]

One guy out of how many years here. That was my point. A lot of mediocrity in that position and a 3-4 defense, which Dick L would be running....that needs a lot more than the mediocre LB's that this team has drafted.

I do not think Dick is ever coming back to Cincinnati anyways or that they are going to a 3-4, but it still does not change the issue of Marvin's inability to draft and develop LB's. You can throw in Thurman as well along with Vontez and that is it.To be fair, the LBer position has been like the Bermuda Triangle in his tenure. A lot of different things have happened to his LBers that led to the results you speak of. His LBer picks have not been ridiculed on draft day, he's just had a myriad of issues come up once they become Bengals, most of which have been beyond his control and are inherent risks of the game.

[Kingspoint]

Anyone watch the East/West Shrine game? Anybody see a DE/DL they'd be interested in (not necessarily with the #21 pick).

[Yachtzee]

One guy out of how many years here. That was my point. A lot of mediocrity in that position and a 3-4 defense, which Dick L would be running....that needs a lot more than the mediocre LB's that this team has drafted.

I do not think Dick is ever coming back to Cincinnati anyways or that they are going to a 3-4, but it still does not change the issue of Marvin's inability to draft and develop LB's. You can throw in Thurman as well along with Vontez and that is it.

Cincinnati had been using a 4-3 pretty much the entire time Lewis has been here. In such an alignment DL is much more of a premium need than LB. LB is more of a support position to the DL and the DBs in this scheme. They don't draft great LBs because it's not a priority compared to other positions. Going to a 3-4 would require the Bengals to put more emphasis on LBs. I don't think it's going to happen.

[Kingspoint]

Cincinnati had been using a 4-3 pretty much the entire time Lewis has been here. In such an alignment DL is much more of a premium need than LB. LB is more of a support position to the DL and the DBs in this scheme. They don't draft great LBs because it's not a priority compared to other positions. Going to a 3-4 would require the Bengals to put more emphasis on LBs. I don't think it's going to happen.

Yes. To fill what the Bengals need from a LB, that asset can be had in the 5th Rounds.

[Hoosier Red]

Does that matter with the point being made?

Don't mean to be picky. Tony said "However Marvin seems to not be able to draft a decent LB to save his life. They are better with UFA but you can have too many of those and they are not usually a good thing."

I think the main point being that it's hard to get lightning to strike twice with regards to UFA's.
I'm not sure I agree with that, but the fact that Burfict was a UFA seems to go to his point(you got one, can't press the luck on more being productive.)

[Stray]

Dalton made the Pro Bowl roster lol

[Hoosier Red]

Dalton made the Pro Bowl roster lol

Elite. Level. I think this tops Gresham going a few years ago as like the 6th TE in the AFC.

[traderumor]

Don't mean to be picky. Tony said "However Marvin seems to not be able to draft a decent LB to save his life. They are better with UFA but you can have too many of those and they are not usually a good thing."

I think the main point being that it's hard to get lightning to strike twice with regards to UFA's.
I'm not sure I agree with that, but the fact that Burfict was a UFA seems to go to his point(you got one, can't press the luck on more being productive.)

I see.

[top6]

Elite. Level. I think this tops Gresham going a few years ago as like the 6th TE in the AFC.

Actually, it does top it, because Dalton was the SEVENTH alternate (http://deadspin.com/andy-dalton-seventh-alternate-qb-will-play-in-the-dum-1680670962).

Lol indeed.

[Sea Ray]

Dalton making it to the Pro Bowl says more about the game itself than anything else

[Stray]

I'd rather they do away with the game and have some sort of skills competition. When you're going 6 and 7 deep into alternates because nobody wants to play then it's time to rethink the whole format.

[texasdave]

I'd rather they do away with the game and have some sort of skills competition. When you're going 6 and 7 deep into alternates because nobody wants to play then it's time to rethink the whole format.

No worries. Moving the extra point back to the 15-yard line, and narrowing the goal posts will have the fans glued to their seats, he said tongue-firmly-in-cheek.

[Hoosier Red]

Much as we'd all love for the Pro Bowl to go the way of the dodo bird, it's not going anywhere with the ratings it pulls in.
http://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2014/01/28/pro-bowl-ratings

[Big Red Smokey]

Bud Dupree at 21

[Tony Cloninger]

To be fair, the LBer position has been like the Bermuda Triangle in his tenure. A lot of different things have happened to his LBers that led to the results you speak of. His LBer picks have not been ridiculed on draft day, he's just had a myriad of issues come up once they become Bengals, most of which have been beyond his control and are inherent risks of the game.

Yes, there has been some bad luck. Lots of injuries. Players like Keith Rivers not developing at all, and injured. Caleb Miller, too frail to play that position full time. They seem to have better results from UFA or 2nd tier FA signings. I do know that his defenses were never good until Zimmer arrived, besides in 2005 when they were a turnover machine but still never that stout. I was really hoping Rex Ryan would have taken a year off and come here just to see what he could do with this talent.

[Tony Cloninger]

Cincinnati had been using a 4-3 pretty much the entire time Lewis has been here. In such an alignment DL is much more of a premium need than LB. LB is more of a support position to the DL and the DBs in this scheme. They don't draft great LBs because it's not a priority compared to other positions. Going to a 3-4 would require the Bengals to put more emphasis on LBs. I don't think it's going to happen.

That is true, but with the DL production going down this year ...the need for better LB play was evident. Of course losing Vontez did not help. However when do you recall this team having a halfway decent cover LB...especially on TE's, where they get beaten a lot. I am not asking for Jack Ham here, just maybe a Bo Harris will do.

[Kingspoint]

Of course losing Vontez did not help. However when do you recall this team having a halfway decent cover LB...especially on TE's,

Per ProFootballFocus "Coverage" rankings of LBer's that played at least 50% of their team's snaps in all types of Defenses (This doesn't account for "specialist" LB's who only come in on passing downs, while coming out on running downs.):

2014: Among 85 LBer's, Rey ranked #55 overall, and #12 among 21 4-3 OLB's. Lamur ranked #71 overall, and #16 among 21 4-3 OLB's.

2013: Among 85 LBer's, Burfict ranked #10 overall, and #4 among 18 4-3 OLB's. Maualuga ranked #68 overall, and #28 among 38 ILB's.

2012: Among 83 LBer's, Burfict ranked #64 overall, and #18 among 26 4-3 OLB's. Maualuga ranked #83 overall (yes, dead last), and #35 among 35 ILB's.

2011: Among 85 LBer's, Howard ranked #20 overall, and #5 among 29 4-3 OLB's. Maualuga ranked #76 overall, and #33 among 37 ILB's.

2010: Among 86 LBer's, Jones ranked #81 overall, and #38 among 39 ILB's. Maualuga ranked #59 overall, and #12 among 19 4-3 OLB's.
Thomas Howard was signed on in 2010 after being a premier Coverage LB in many of his five seasons with the Raiders, finishing #1 overall as recently as 2008, but an early injury obliterated the plan to improve our LB Coverage and forced the Bengals to go with the now old and slow Dhani Jones. Jones had been the teams' best coverage LB each of the last three seasons, and ranked among the Top-20 each of these seasons. 2014 was similar in that Burfict suffered an early season injury after having had a very good season in coverage the year before (though when healthy in 2014 the few times, he was often out of position and did not play well at all).

2009: Among 81 LBer's, Johnson ranked #34 overall, and #10 among 25 4-3 OLB's. Jones ranked #20 overall, and #18 among 38 ILB's. That year, the Bengals' Defense ranked #4 overall in Pass Coverage and dead last in Pass Rush, an almost impossible feat. To have two LB's rank among the Top-34 in back-to-back years placed the Bengals among just a few teams to accomplish this over the last eight years.

2008: Among 81 LBer's, Johnson ranked #32 overall, and #17 among 31 4-3 OLB's. Jones ranked #19 overall, and #11 among 36 ILB's. Jeanty ranked #73 overall and #28 among 31 4-3 OLB's. This is the last time the Bengals had three LB's play at least 50% of the Defensive snaps showing that continuity among the LB's has been a problem for a while now for the Bengals. While the 4-3 system allows a sub-standard LB like Brandon Johnson to lead the team in tackles and do well, it worked well when teams were mostly running the ball. As more and more TE's have become faster and more athletic, while retaining the size of a TE, the need for more athletic 4-3 LB'er's has increased. To compensate, more and more teams have been moving to the 3-4, something that offers more blitzing opportunities and coverage disguises, while getting more athletic Defenders on the field.

2007: Among 91 LBer's, Jones ranked #10 overall, and #3 among 36 4-3 OLB's. No other LB played at least 50% of the team's snaps that season.

[Kingspoint]

Per Football Outsiders, the Bengals' ranking on coverage of TE's (this doesn't take into account a team not throwing to TE's because they have a weaker area of Defense to attack, but it would be the same with all of the other 31 teams, also, so it balances out). Since LB's generally cover RB's and TE's, and we're talking about LB coverage here, I'm going to list the Bengals' rankings vs TE's and RB's.

2014: 4th overall versus TE's. The bottom line is that teams didn't successfully throw against the Bengals' Defense when it came to using their TE's compared to the other 31 teams in the NFL. If you think the Bengals' weren't good at this, then you simply didn't watch the other 31 teams on a regular basis, as 28 other teams had more trouble stopping the TE than the Bengals' did. 29th overall vs RB's (a lot of this is because the Bengals' coverage of WR's and TE's was so good that the only option to a QB was to a RB. We saw this emphasized in the playoff game against Indy as Herron got a ton of volume.) 7th in Team Pass Coverage. Profootballfocus ranked them 14th in Team Pass Coverage.

2013: 9th overall versus TE's. 23rd overall vs RB's. 4th in Team Pass Coverage. 4th from Profootballfocus, also.

2012: 12th overall versus TE's. 9th overall vs RB's. 9th in Team Pass Coverage. 6th by Profootballfocus.

2011: 18th overall versus TE's. 9th overall vs RB's. 18th in Team Pass Coverage. 18th also by Profootballfocus.

2010: 14th overall versus TE's. 1st overall vs RB's. They didn't have to throw against RB's that year, as they could pick and choose which WR/TE they wished to throw at as the Bengals were average across the board against #1, #2, #3 or greater WR's and TE's. In other words, when one of X, Y, and Z are always going to be open, there's no need to dump off a pass to a RB. 14th in Team Pass Coverage. 19th from Profootballfocus.

2009: 2nd overall versus TE's. 26th vs RB's. This was a case where our Top two CB's were so dominating, teams were forced to go either to a #3 or #4 WR, or a RB, as Johnson and Jones combined to do a great job against TE's. The Bengals ranked #5 overall vs #1 WR's and #5 overall vs #2 WR's, but #31 overall versus all other WR's. 10th in Team Pass Coverage. 4th from Profootballfocus.

2008: 2nd overall versus TE's. (Again, the combination of Johnson and Jones were formidable against TE's in coverage, and in this case, all of the other options were too easily available for the opposing Offenses.) #17 overall vs RB's. The CB's were absolutely terrible. The Bengals ranked #26 vs #1 WR's, #25 vs #2 WR's, and #23 vs all other WR's. This was Zimmer's first season with the Bengals. It takes time to put things together Defensively. Guenther did as well his first year as Zimmer did in his. 19th in Team Pass Coverage. 19th also from Profootballfocus.

2007: 9th overall vs TE's. 10th overall vs RB's. 28th vs #1 WR's. 24th vs #2 WR's. 8th overall vs other WR's. 30th in Team Pass Coverage. ProFootballFocus had them ranked 17th.

[Kingspoint]

Looking at these two posts, it looks like the last time was in 2008 and 2009 when Brandon Johnson and Dhani Jones had back-to-back decent good seasons in coverage.

[Tony Cloninger]

Looking at these two posts, it looks like the last time was in 2008 and 2009 when Brandon Johnson and Dhani Jones had back-to-back decent good seasons in coverage.

Great stuff. Thank You. I should have never forgot Dhani. He was a real good player for this team. Real good team player and nice guy. Brandon was pretty decent as well.

[Tony Cloninger]

Per Football Outsiders, the Bengals' ranking on coverage of TE's (this doesn't take into account a team not throwing to TE's because they have a weaker area of Defense to attack, but it would be the same with all of the other 31 teams, also, so it balances out). Since LB's generally cover RB's and TE's, and we're talking about LB coverage here, I'm going to list the Bengals' rankings vs TE's and RB's.

2014: 4th overall versus TE's. The bottom line is that teams didn't successfully throw against the Bengals' Defense when it came to using their TE's compared to the other 31 teams in the NFL. If you think the Bengals' weren't good at this, then you simply didn't watch the other 31 teams on a regular basis, as 28 other teams had more trouble stopping the TE than the Bengals' did. 29th overall vs RB's (a lot of this is because the Bengals' coverage of WR's and TE's was so good that the only option to a QB was to a RB. We saw this emphasized in the playoff game against Indy as Herron got a ton of volume.) 7th in Team Pass Coverage. Profootballfocus ranked them 14th in Team Pass Coverage.

2013: 9th overall versus TE's. 23rd overall vs RB's. 4th in Team Pass Coverage. 4th from Profootballfocus, also.

2012: 12th overall versus TE's. 9th overall vs RB's. 9th in Team Pass Coverage. 6th by Profootballfocus.

2011: 18th overall versus TE's. 9th overall vs RB's. 18th in Team Pass Coverage. 18th also by Profootballfocus.

2010: 14th overall versus TE's. 1st overall vs RB's. They didn't have to throw against RB's that year, as they could pick and choose which WR/TE they wished to throw at as the Bengals were average across the board against #1, #2, #3 or greater WR's and TE's. In other words, when one of X, Y, and Z are always going to be open, there's no need to dump off a pass to a RB. 14th in Team Pass Coverage. 19th from Profootballfocus.

2009: 2nd overall versus TE's. 26th vs RB's. This was a case where our Top two CB's were so dominating, teams were forced to go either to a #3 or #4 WR, or a RB, as Johnson and Jones combined to do a great job against TE's. The Bengals ranked #5 overall vs #1 WR's and #5 overall vs #2 WR's, but #31 overall versus all other WR's. 10th in Team Pass Coverage. 4th from Profootballfocus.

2008: 2nd overall versus TE's. (Again, the combination of Johnson and Jones were formidable against TE's in coverage, and in this case, all of the other options were too easily available for the opposing Offenses.) #17 overall vs RB's. The CB's were absolutely terrible. The Bengals ranked #26 vs #1 WR's, #25 vs #2 WR's, and #23 vs all other WR's. This was Zimmer's first season with the Bengals. It takes time to put things together Defensively. Guenther did as well his first year as Zimmer did in his. 19th in Team Pass Coverage. 19th also from Profootballfocus.

2007: 9th overall vs TE's. 10th overall vs RB's. 28th vs #1 WR's. 24th vs #2 WR's. 8th overall vs other WR's. 30th in Team Pass Coverage. ProFootballFocus had them ranked 17th.


Good point in your 2014 analysis. I understand injuries hurt this unit more on the run defense side.

Again great stuff. Thanks

[GAC]

Dalton making it to the Pro Bowl says more about the game itself than anything else

I can't tell you when the last time was I've ever watched this game. It's been at least 20 years. If the players don't take it seriously, blow it off, then why should I?

[Sea Ray]

I can't tell you when the last time was I've ever watched this game. It's been at least 20 years. If the players don't take it seriously, blow it off, then why should I?

I don't watch it either. I'm amazed that it gets the ratings that it does

[Oxilon]

Only way to make the Pro Bowl watchable is to put a financial incentive in for the players. If each player from the winning team got a bonus, you'd see some better effort.

[Tony Cloninger]

The Pro Bowl used to be played all out, and considering a lot of contracts are NOT guaranteed....you would think they would triple the payouts to these guys so they will play.

I remember the one played after the 1976 season, before they started going to Hawaii in the late 70's. Ken Anderson threw 2 TD passes to Charlie Joiner, who had a great year for the Chargers after being traded for Coy Bacon. Kenny said they were in tune from the 1975 season and used plays that they would run for each other by Bill Walsh.

I loved Coy Bacon but that trade, when Paul had so so many extra picks to give out.....was bad.
I guess they made up for it with the Brooks for Pete Johnson trade.