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redsmetz
12-16-2014, 09:03 AM
A fairly stellar group of inductees next year.

Joan Jett and the Blackhearts
Green Day
Bill Withers
Lou Reed
Stevie Ray Vaughan
Paul Butterfield Blues Band

Likewise, Ringo Starr will received the Award for Musical Excellence and the "5" Royales will enter under the "Early Influences" category. The "5" Royales were the original artists who recorded "Dedicated to the One I Love" which the Mamas and Papas had a #2 Hit with. The Shirelles also hit the charts with it too.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/12/16/joan-jett-bill-withers-lou-reed-and-green-day-among-those-to-join-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame/?tid=hp_mm&hpid=z4

westofyou
12-16-2014, 09:28 AM
Joan Jett eh?

Meh

Where's ELO?

RedFanAlways1966
12-16-2014, 09:37 AM
Green Day and Joan Jett? A real joke considering bands like Deep Purple and Iron Maiden are not in while Billie Joe and Joan get to be inductees. As a matter of fact Billie Joe and Joan would be embarrassed to sing next to the late Ronnie James Dio (who had three successful ROCK bands). But this is old news to real ROCK fans. The Cleveland thing by the lake is a sham. It is run by the record industry and most things done there are all about making more money (regardless of what they tell us). Just like the recording industry that has screwed over many talented acts for crap.

No diss to those to be inducted, but let the truth be told. I am not sure what ROCK is considering some of the names there. :)

paintmered
12-16-2014, 09:51 AM
Even if Green Day hadn't released another album after Dookie, they'd be deserving. That album introduced punk to the mainstream and kept it there.

Musically, they fall short of many not in the Hall of Fame. But in terms of historical significance, they belong.

westofyou
12-16-2014, 09:53 AM
Even if Green Day hadn't released another album after Dookie, they'd be deserving. That album introduced punk to the mainstream and kept it there.

Musically, they fall short of many not in the Hall of Fame. But in terms of historical significance, they belong.

American Idiot is genius

paintmered
12-16-2014, 10:00 AM
American Idiot is genius

Sure is, although I didn't really care for the idea of a modern rock opera at the time. But a decade later, it remains among the best musical social commentary out there. How many other decade-old albums are still relevant today?

redsmetz
12-16-2014, 10:46 AM
I have to say, I'm not that familiar with Green Day, other than knowing the name. My daughter's reaction to the post I put of the article on Facebook was "Green Day? Really?". When I asked her about it in a email, she replied, "They're just so angsty teenage punk rock. I didn't realize anyone took them seriously!". On FB, I told her I didn't know them, they were after what I always called "my jazz period" and that they were actually in my "raising my kids" period.

WOY's mention of ELO is actually one of the band's that I didn't know well other than by name because I wasn't listening to much rock during that period (I was the same way with Pink Floyd and Queen - I thought of Queen as a "novelty" act until I really listened to their musicianship and came to appreciate them).

I'm likewise not very familiar with Jett's body of work. She's among those artists who are nearer to my age, so I never really heard much of them when they were up and coming.

paintmered
12-16-2014, 11:02 AM
Joe, if you have an hour to spare, listen to American Idiot in its entirety (radio did it a disservice by playing singles). It may not resonate with you, but I think you'll find that that album especially isn't angsty teenage punk pop.

Although to be fair, Green Day had a mid-career run of forgettable stuff between 1997 and 2004.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmPlPdWS97A

marcshoe
12-16-2014, 11:14 AM
I've been pushing ELO for so long that it seems redundant at this point.

As for Joan Jett, I lived in Australia when "I Love Rock and Roll" was out, and a guy named Molly Meldrum had a weekly top ten countdown show on TV. Tim and Neil Finn, then of Split Enz, were his guests (supporting Time and Tide, with the singles "Six Months in a Leaky Boat" and "Dirty Creature") when the song hit number one, and they didn't exactly have nice things to say about it. They considered it commercial pap, iirc. This upset Meldrum, but I sided with the Finn Brothers. Kind of funny seeing Jett critically respected now. Seems almost revisionist, really.

mdccclxix
12-16-2014, 11:15 AM
Why'd it take this long for Lou Reed? Goodness.

marcshoe
12-16-2014, 11:17 AM
Why'd it take this long for Lou Reed? Goodness.

I'm assuming he was already in with The Velvet Underground, but yeah, seems like he'd be in solo by now.

paintmered
12-16-2014, 11:17 AM
Why'd it take this long for Lou Reed? Goodness.

Co-signed. My reaction to seeing his name was, "Wait, he wasn't already in?!?" They really missed the boat by not inducting him as a solo artist before he passed.

RichRed
12-16-2014, 12:49 PM
I thought Green Day was going to be a one album wonder. Shows what I know.

cinredsfan2000
12-16-2014, 01:08 PM
Green Day and Joan Jett? A real joke considering bands like Deep Purple and Iron Maiden are not in while Billie Joe and Joan get to be inductees. As a matter of fact Billie Joe and Joan would be embarrassed to sing next to the late Ronnie James Dio (who had three successful ROCK bands). But this is old news to real ROCK fans. The Cleveland thing by the lake is a sham. It is run by the record industry and most things done there are all about making more money (regardless of what they tell us). Just like the recording industry that has screwed over many talented acts for crap.

No diss to those to be inducted, but let the truth be told. I am not sure what ROCK is considering some of the names there. :)

Agree whole heartedly with you. Sorry Green Day may have some merit i suppose but seriously over the likes of Deep purple ? It would appear the RRHOF committee or whoever is in charge of electing bands needs to be replaced. I guess there just going to over look the whole late 70's 80's hard rock /metal era ? Sorry Joan Jett is not exactly H.O.F material seems like a throw in.As for Green day really sorry you can tell me until your'e blue in the face about how great american idiot was and all there music but i don't think there anymore worthy than say Bon Jovi or Ratt or any other big name 80's hard rock act . Id put Journey,Kansas, Foreigner in before i would even think about green day

westofyou
12-16-2014, 01:43 PM
Foreigner is maybe the worst band of all time, the Creed of the late 70's

*BaseClogger*
12-16-2014, 02:11 PM
I thought Green Day was going to be a one album wonder. Shows what I know.

Kerplunk?

paintmered
12-16-2014, 02:38 PM
Agree whole heartedly with you. Sorry Green Day may have some merit i suppose but seriously over the likes of Deep purple ? It would appear the RRHOF committee or whoever is in charge of electing bands needs to be replaced. I guess there just going to over look the whole late 70's 80's hard rock /metal era ? Sorry Joan Jett is not exactly H.O.F material seems like a throw in.As for Green day really sorry you can tell me until your'e blue in the face about how great american idiot was and all there music but i don't think there anymore worthy than say Bon Jovi or Ratt or any other big name 80's hard rock act . Id put Journey,Kansas, Foreigner in before i would even think about green day

It seems that you object based on the style of Green Day instead of their accomplishments. The type of music doesn't suit you, and that's okay. But how many of the bands above created defining albums in two different decades or defined a new mainstream genre? None of them.

If anyone were to ask me who defines 70s and 80s hard rock, my answer isn't going to be Foreigner or Ratt or anyone else on your list, all of who were derivatives of already successful bands.

RedFanAlways1966
12-16-2014, 03:01 PM
It seems that you object based on the style of Green Day instead of their accomplishments. The type of music doesn't suit you, and that's okay. But how many of the bands above created defining albums in two different decades or defined a new mainstream genre? None of them.


Defining is a matter of definition, right? Pun intended, but seriously. Obviously I am not a Green Fan and you are. And that is all good. But Rock H-of-F? No way, no how. It makes me laugh at this building next to Lake Erie and roll my eyes at ever paying "another" nickel to go inside. I have been twice in the past but now they have really done it. No more! I am sure my money will not be missed, but I will not be an American Idiot. A farce I say. Joan Jett and Billie Joe. I can understand Green Day possibly in 20 years. But not today. Oh well. The Goo Goo Dolls s/b happy (and Third Eye Blind). Green Day opens the door for them (w/out the political supporters lol).

paintmered
12-16-2014, 03:07 PM
Defining is a matter of definition, right? Pun intended, but seriously. Obviously I am not a Green Fan and you are. And that is all good. But Rock H-of-F? No way, no how. It makes me laugh at this building next to Lake Erie and roll my eyes at ever paying "another" nickel to go inside. I have been twice in the past but now they have really done it. No more! I am sure my money will not be missed, but I will not be an American Idiot. A farce I say. Joan Jett and Billie Joe. I can understand Green Day possibly in 20 years. But not today. Oh well. The Goo Goo Dolls s/b happy (and Third Eye Blind). Green Day opens the door for them (w/out the political supporters lol).

I'm actually not a big fan of Green Day or punk in general even though I'm defending them (I don't dislike them). My preferences aren't going to cloud my judgement of who is and isn't worthy of induction.

And let's not get silly, Goo Goo Dolls and Third Eye Blind won't get in. Dave Grohl will get in for the second time on a first-round ballot next year though. Is that going to cause a problem?

cinredsfan2000
12-16-2014, 03:43 PM
It seems that you object based on the style of Green Day instead of their accomplishments. The type of music doesn't suit you, and that's okay. But how many of the bands above created defining albums in two different decades or defined a new mainstream genre? None of them.
True Ratt may not have been the most original band .Sure they were copying what Aerosmith/Van Halen had done a decade earlier. But you could argue that there albums were just as influential back in the early to mid 80's as Green days could you not? Really Green Day weren't doing anything the clash hadn't done 20 years or so earlier with London calling or combat rock .

[/QUOTE] If anyone were to ask me who defines 70s and 80s hard rock, my answer isn't going to be Foreigner or Ratt or anyone else on your list, all of who were derivatives of already successful bands.[/QUOTE]

Isn't most rock music when broken down to it's core a derivative of there predecessors . I mean im not huge Green day fan but i think to say there more deserving because of there somehow cooler ? or have a album critically praised? The Pop punk scene ala Green Day The offspring etc..are the 90's equivalent of the 80's L.A.hair metal scene . I suppose it's just a matter of taste and opinion .

KronoRed
12-16-2014, 03:58 PM
I'm actually not a big fan of Green Day or punk in general even though I'm defending them (I don't dislike them). My preferences aren't going to cloud my judgement of who is and isn't worthy of induction.

And let's not get silly, Goo Goo Dolls and Third Eye Blind won't get in. Dave Grohl will get in for the second time on a first-round ballot next year though. Is that going to cause a problem?

Isn't the rule 25 years? the Foo's won't be getting in until 2020...maybe.

redsfanmia
12-16-2014, 04:01 PM
Green Day is deserving IMO, who will they induct In say 10 years? I keep waiting for Rock to come back but I don't think it will.

paintmered
12-16-2014, 04:28 PM
True Ratt may not have been the most original band .Sure they were copying what Aerosmith/Van Halen had done a decade earlier. But you could argue that there albums were just as influential back in the early to mid 80's as Green days could you not? Really Green Day weren't doing anything the clash hadn't done 20 years or so earlier with London calling or combat rock .

If anyone were to ask me who defines 70s and 80s hard rock, my answer isn't going to be Foreigner or Ratt or anyone else on your list, all of who were derivatives of already successful bands.

Isn't most rock music when broken down to it's core a derivative of there predecessors . I mean im not huge Green day fan but i think to say there more deserving because of there somehow cooler ? or have a album critically praised? The Pop punk scene ala Green Day The offspring etc..are the 90's equivalent of the 80's L.A.hair metal scene . I suppose it's just a matter of taste and opinion .


Green Day wasn't the first, but they were the first to break through. That, in my opinion, is the reason they should be inducted. And while 90s punk is a derivative of earlier punk styles (itself a derivative of garage rock and others), it had yet to be represented in the Hall of Fame.

In 1994, punk was still a niche until Dookie happened. That album went diamond in the US and again outside of it. Compare that with the sales success of Green Day's influences:

- The Ramones went gold twice.
- The Dead Kennedys went gold twice.
- Social Distortion went gold twice.
- The Sex Pistols had one album go double platinum in the UK and two others go gold.
- Bad Religion went gold once.
- NOFX went gold twice.
- The Clash went double platinum once, platinum once, and gold twice. They're also in the Hall of Fame.

I can't say whether The Offspring would have achieved the same level of success with Smash without Green Day since it came on the heels of Dookie. But I think Green Day has the more rightful claim by getting there first and for the impact of American Idiot ten years later.

paintmered
12-16-2014, 04:30 PM
Isn't the rule 25 years? the Foo's won't be getting in until 2020...maybe.

Yep, you're right. I was thinking 20 years.

paintmered
12-16-2014, 04:47 PM
Green Day is deserving IMO, who will they induct In say 10 years? I keep waiting for Rock to come back but I don't think it will.

This is a fun list to look through: http://www.futurerocklegends.com/future.php

vaticanplum
12-16-2014, 05:19 PM
What exactly is the criteria for the Hall of Fame? It seems very clear to me looking at this list that this crop in particular has a heavy bent of "influence" -- you can trace a pretty clear path from what they did to other artists and musical movements that came afterward. And I would agree that influence and innovation are probably better markers for a thing like this than quality of music, since the latter is so subjective. Not that, like, Britney Spears would make it in (barring some spectacular career turn) despite any influence she's had on pop moppets...but nobody on this list is an artist that a large number of people don't think is of good quality.

Influence and innovation are not the same thing, of course (innovation alone would have gotten Kraftwerk in), but they're related. paintmered has outlined Green Day's effect of bringing punk into the mainstream very well. They have also had A HUGE influence on theater, both mainstream and underground. On the type of work that gets produced, on where the money goes, on who is making theater now, honest to god way down to how actors are trained to sing. And that likewise has had an influence back on bands as well. This has happened in less than 10 years. That's extraordinary for a band that originated strictly in the music world and I have no doubt that played a role.

Same thing with Joan Jett. Joan Jett led directly to riot grrrls, the Go Gos, Sleater-Kinney, a feminist message in music...truly the landscape of music would be different without her. She also had a successful independent solo career after pretty much no label would touch her, which was unheard of at the time and played a big role in the foundation of indie (in the traditional sense) music, for both men and women.

The influence factor would also sort of explain why Reed hasn't been on his own -- as influential as he was as a solo artist, I don't think anyone would argue that the Velvet Underground didn't have a bigger impact. Same to a lesser degree with Sting. Of the nine other nominees that didn't make it, though, I think the ones that most baffle me as far as influence goes are the Smiths and especially N.W.A.

Dom Heffner
12-16-2014, 05:45 PM
Joan Jett also produced the Germs, am I right or am I right?

Dom Heffner
12-16-2014, 05:46 PM
Green Day is deserving IMO, who will they induct In say 10 years? I keep waiting for Rock to come back but I don't think it will.

Kids play video games, listen to rap.

The good music is still there, it's just nobody cares.

redsfanmia
12-16-2014, 07:34 PM
Kids play video games, listen to rap.

The good music is still there, it's just nobody cares.
Good point, I keep thinking rock will cycle back like when grunge hit.

redsmetz
12-17-2014, 07:56 AM
Here's an interesting piece about the Paul Butterfield Blues Band's selection:

http://ultimateclassicrock.com/paul-butterfield-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame/

vaticanplum
12-17-2014, 08:36 AM
Here's an interesting piece about the Paul Butterfield Blues Band's selection:

http://ultimateclassicrock.com/paul-butterfield-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame/

Interesting, and seems to go along with the influence factor as well. For the past couple of years I've been caretaker of my friend's dead father's record collection while she's been living abroad (got that?) It's chock-a-block with the white man's blues. I've been surprised of how much of it is familiar to me -- not the songs themselves per se, but the sound of it.

Also, kids today are as into music as they ever were, if not more. I think it just doesn't look that way to a lot of us because the way they acquire and digest it is so different than what we grew up with. But most teenagers follow music on some level, tastes all over the place, and I would argue that there's even wider knowledge of a broader range of music among them now because it's so easy for them to access it and develop their taste early.

Roy Tucker
12-18-2014, 05:44 PM
Interesting, and seems to go along with the influence factor as well. For the past couple of years I've been caretaker of my friend's dead father's record collection while she's been living abroad (got that?) It's chock-a-block with the white man's blues. I've been surprised of how much of it is familiar to me -- not the songs themselves per se, but the sound of it.

Also, kids today are as into music as they ever were, if not more. I think it just doesn't look that way to a lot of us because the way they acquire and digest it is so different than what we grew up with. But most teenagers follow music on some level, tastes all over the place, and I would argue that there's even wider knowledge of a broader range of music among them now because it's so easy for them to access it and develop their taste early.

I had quite the vinyl collection back in the day. But my kids absconded with with most of the good stuff. Now I'm left with Grand Funk Railroad, Dan Fogelberg, and the Dixie Dregs.

I like Green Day and think they are worthy. As is Joan Jett. With rock, you have to be be perpetually adolescent to like it. Which is why I still do ;)

redsmetz
12-19-2014, 05:45 AM
Here's an article about Steve Cropper talking about the significance of the "5" Royales (and the photo confirms what I had suspected, they were yet one more of the many early influential performers who recorded here at King Records - we had a legitimate claim for placement of the R&R HOF here in the Queen City).

http://somethingelsereviews.com/2014/12/16/steve-cropper-5-royales-hall-of-fame/

redsmetz
12-19-2014, 08:17 AM
Here's an NPR interview with Steve Cropper on the album he put together as a tribute to the "5" Royales (which, BTW, the Cincy library has plenty of copies of).

http://www.npr.org/2011/08/14/139586411/steve-cropper-an-old-pro-honors-his-unsung-idols

Strikes Out Looking
12-19-2014, 10:52 AM
My votes would go to Warren Zevon and Squeeze, both before Joan Jett.

Ohayou
12-20-2014, 02:10 AM
This is a fun list to look through: http://www.futurerocklegends.com/future.php

Ah, Tool. Rumor has it, they named their last album "10,000 Days" because that's exactly how long they plan on waiting before releasing another one.

RedTeamGo!
12-22-2014, 09:10 AM
Future RRHOF'ers off the top of my head:

Phish
Trey Anastacio
The Black Keys
Radiohead
Modest Mouse
Dave Matthews Band
Pearl Jam
Weezer
Queens of the Stone Age
The White Stripes
The Strokes
Smashing Pumpkins
Rage Against the Machine
John Mayer

There are many yet to get in.

Dom Heffner
12-22-2014, 02:08 PM
John Mayer...oh man. Oh man oh man oh man.

I need a drink.

cinredsfan2000
12-22-2014, 03:02 PM
The Strokes ?
Why not just let any band who were remotely popular into the hall maybe by then Deep purple and yes and elp might be in .

vaticanplum
12-22-2014, 03:51 PM
Future RRHOF'ers off the top of my head:

Phish
Trey Anastacio
The Black Keys
Radiohead
Modest Mouse
Dave Matthews Band
Pearl Jam
Weezer
Queens of the Stone Age
The White Stripes
The Strokes
Smashing Pumpkins
Rage Against the Machine
John Mayer

There are many yet to get in.

If John Mayer gets in the HOF, I will become the crankiest of cranky message board people.

I see very few on this list who are locks for the HOF. Pearl Jam and Radiohead, definitely. QOTSA, Smashing Pumpkins, and RATM might be on the cusp. I have no idea how the HOF will regard Phish or DMB. Too soon to tell on the Black Keys. The rest are a stretch in my opinion. There is not a bigger Strokes fan on the planet than I am -- seriously, I challenge anyone. But they are not HOF material. They and the White Stripes are both unapologetically, brilliantly derivative, with spotty and relatively brief careers both.

I think over the next few years I'm most curious to see what they do about Britpop. Very solid and very influential movement that nonetheless still feels a bit alien to a lot of America -- did not have the widespread impact on the American public (though it did on musicians, I think); did not reach people the way, say, the Who or Radiohead. Oasis was the most famous but by far not the most innovative. Blur (who is eligible next year, my god) was arguably the most innovative, the most influential, and had a really long, solid and varied career. Also a band filled with individually great, underrated musicians. Yet I still feel it would be a big shock to hear they made it. It will be interesting to see how this pans out.

RedTeamGo!
12-22-2014, 04:14 PM
John Mayer...oh man. Oh man oh man oh man.

I need a drink.

Hey, I am not saying I am a fan, but the man can play and has a career going on 15 years with no end in sight.

RedTeamGo!
12-22-2014, 04:21 PM
If John Mayer gets in the HOF, I will become the crankiest of cranky message board people.

I see very few on this list who are locks for the HOF. Pearl Jam and Radiohead, definitely. QOTSA, Smashing Pumpkins, and RATM might be on the cusp. I have no idea how the HOF will regard Phish or DMB. Too soon to tell on the Black Keys. The rest are a stretch in my opinion. There is not a bigger Strokes fan on the planet than I am -- seriously, I challenge anyone. But they are not HOF material. They and the White Stripes are both unapologetically, brilliantly derivative, with spotty and relatively brief careers both.

I think over the next few years I'm most curious to see what they do about Britpop. Very solid and very influential movement that nonetheless still feels a bit alien to a lot of America -- did not have the widespread impact on the American public (though it did on musicians, I think); did not reach people the way, say, the Who or Radiohead. Oasis was the most famous but by far not the most innovative. Blur (who is eligible next year, my god) was arguably the most innovative, the most influential, and had a really long, solid and varied career. Also a band filled with individually great, underrated musicians. Yet I still feel it would be a big shock to hear they made it. It will be interesting to see how this pans out.

If Phish doesn't make the HOF it has no credibility.

One of the top selling touring bands of the past 30 years with a huge following. They also boast some of the best musicians on Earth and one of the best guitarists of all time.

Rage is a lock. Have a dozen songs that will never be forgotten and an incredibly innovative guitarist in Morello.

I think Weezer is a lock, as well.

The White Stripes or at the minimum, Jack White is a lock.

I also do not see a way Dave Mathews Band gets left out. They were monstrous in the 90s.

And, I hate to break it to everyone, but Coldplay is getting in some day. They have a top 5 grossing tour of all time.

Daft Punk will be the act that transitions this HOF into a gray area and doesn't look back.

Look out for Jay Z getting in some day, too.

Obviously it is too early to tell on some of these, but they are future HOF members

Dom Heffner
12-22-2014, 04:56 PM
I love these lists. I love this debate.

I look at a band like Phish and think- I'll bet not one percent of America can name one song they do.

I listen to music ten hours a day or so- I love it. Like I drive people nuts with my love for music.

And I can't name one Phish song. I think of Phish and I think of a 75% less commercial Dave Matthews Band where everyone shows up to their shows and smokes a bunch of pot and the songs meander with extended solos where girls twirl and twirl and twirl on the lawn...

Music is wholly subjective, it is taste and I do not want to make fun of anyone for liking any bands...but who has Phish influenced? Nobody knows who they are. I just always wondered how you can have a hall of fame and you let in someone who the entire audience will not recognize one iota.

I guess if we let KISS in, they should let everyone in- good lord is there a larger catalog of bunk than that band? Gene Simmons makes fun of Nirvana, talking about how they only had two albums...and you want to take him by the throat and tell him that Nirvana did in two albums what KISS couldn't do in 30 albums.

westofyou
12-22-2014, 05:07 PM
I love these lists. I love this debate.

I look at a band like Phish and think- I'll bet not one percent of America can name one song they do.

I listen to music ten hours a day or so- I love it. Like I drive people nuts with my love for music.

And I can't name one Phish song

Run like an Antelope

Dom Heffner
12-22-2014, 05:17 PM
Run like an Antelope

Well now I can, thanks a lot for ruining that for me. ;)

Admittedly it's a fine line.

You don't want to let bands in who are simply popular. You don't want to have a hall of fame filled with obscure bands that nobody has heard of.

I realize Phish has a pretty intense following. When I had my radio show, kids would call in all the time for them, but outside of that, I don't think I've crossed paths with their music in my life.

RedTeamGo!
12-22-2014, 05:19 PM
Music is wholly subjective, it is taste and I do not want to make fun of anyone for liking any bands...but who has Phish influenced? Nobody knows who they are.

This is hogwash.

The string cheese incident
moe.
Dave Mathews Band
Umphreys McGee
The Disco Biscuits
Galactic
Tea Leaf Green

That's off the top of my head - there are many more.

And many people can't name a song by The Beatles. That means nothing.

RedTeamGo!
12-22-2014, 05:20 PM
Well now I can, thanks a lot for ruining that for me. ;)

Admittedly it's a fine line.

You don't want to let bands in who are simply popular. You don't want to have a hall of fame filled with obscure bands that nobody has heard of.

I realize Phish has a pretty intense following. When I had my radio show, kids would call in all the time for them, but outside of that, I don't think I've crossed paths with their music in my life.

Phish doesn't make radio friendly music. The fact songs over 5 minutes long aren't radio friendly is part of the reason radio is dying.

westofyou
12-22-2014, 05:23 PM
Well now I can, thanks a lot for ruining that for me. ;)

Admittedly it's a fine line.

You don't want to let bands in who are simply popular. You don't want to have a hall of fame filled with obscure bands that nobody has heard of.

I realize Phish has a pretty intense following. When I had my radio show, kids would call in all the time for them, but outside of that, I don't think I've crossed paths with their music in my life.

Well, I've been to over 70 Phish shows myself, over 230 Dead Shows and about 300 other concerts, but I'm a freak

mdccclxix
12-22-2014, 05:26 PM
It would strike me as oddly inappropriate for Phish or it's fans to be concerned with mainstream recognition. The origin of the band was about mocking mainstream anything. I'll admit thinking, wouldn't it be great if they were finally recognized? But reading Dom's post reminds me that if you've never crossed the threshold into their musical world, you are likely in a vast majority who still scoffs and laughs about that weird, frivolous band Phish. I don't think it needs to be any other way.

RedTeamGo!
12-22-2014, 05:28 PM
Well, I've been to over 70 Phish shows myself, over 230 Dead Shows and about 300 other concerts, but I'm a freak

I was the last New Years eve show in Miami before the hiatus - George Clinton and Pariament came out - it was amazing.

Been to about 10 phish shows - we have something in common other than the Reds!

Dom Heffner
12-22-2014, 05:33 PM
This is hogwash.

The string cheese incident
moe.
Dave Mathews Band
Umphreys McGee
The Disco Biscuits
Galactic
Tea Leaf Green

That's off the top of my head - there are many more.

And many people can't name a song by The Beatles. That means nothing.

There is not one song that Phish has recorded that has any type of influence on this country.

Tea Leaf Green? Really? Galactic? Ohhhh, why didn't you say so lol...

I am smiling as I write this, I do not want to hit someone's favorite band, but you put Phish in the hall of fame and the majority of people will have no idea who they are.

And yes, it matters.

And I could apply this to people who are in there already, I'm sure. "Oh you have no idea how much this artist...." Right, and if nobody has any idea, then how influential could they be?

It doesn't have to be a popularity contest, but it also shouldn't be about bands who received a ton of love from 2 ounces of fans.

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I was the last New Years eve show in Miami before the hiatus - George Clinton and Pariament came out - it was amazing.

Been to about 10 phish shows - we have something in common other than the Reds!

Exactly! You've been to 10 Phish shows. Their entire audience is the same people, traveling from town to town.

Strikes Out Looking
12-22-2014, 05:35 PM
My two favorite museums - Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Baseball Hall of Fame. Probably because I've spent most of my life wasting vast amount of times on the subjects encased in those shrines.

vaticanplum
12-22-2014, 06:08 PM
You don't want to let bands in who are simply popular. You don't want to have a hall of fame filled with obscure bands that nobody has heard of.

That's why I'm curious as to what the actual criteria are. Pavement may be in the top 10% of most influential bands of the last 25 years. There is a very high percentage of musicians -- some of them very successful -- that would cite them as an influence; they have arguably changed the face of American music, both directly and indirectly. Yet most of America could never name a Pavement song.

For that reason, I don't think they deserve to be in. But conversely, I don't think someone who has been enormously popular but brings absolutely nothing new to music and whose influence didn't clearly produce anything new (yeah, I'm looking at you, John Mayer) deserves to be in.

So I guess it is a combination of musical impact AND widespread popularity. The question is how much or how little you are allowed to inhabit either of those categories. A great deal of that is indeed helped by the filter of time. I don't think there's a chance in hell the Velvet Underground would have made the HOF if it existed in the 70s. It took time for the snowball of their influence to be realized. Even their doing something "new" was passed off by a lot of people as artsy fartsy crap at the time, and they were and still are not widely known. But few who know music even remotely would argue their choice now.

You know who I think is a clear HOF band, who hasn't come up? Wilco. This is a band that transcended genres, was just innovative enough, has produced a consistently good catalogue over a long period of time, slowly built a large and solid if not massive fanbase, and turned the music industry on its head. They did everything just enough for the HOF. That to me is a very obvious example, much more clear-cut than a lot of others people have discussed here, yet I know some would be all WHO'S WILCO WTF. Which is why the criteria are important.

westofyou
12-22-2014, 06:13 PM
That's why I'm curious as to what the actual criteria are. Pavement may be in the top 10% of most influential bands of the last 25 years. There is a very high percentage of musicians -- some of them very successful -- that would cite them as an influence; they have arguably changed the face of American music, both directly and indirectly. Yet most of America could never name a Pavement song.

For that reason, I don't think they deserve to be in. But conversely, I don't think someone who has been enormously popular but brings absolutely nothing new to music and whose influence didn't clearly produce anything new (yeah, I'm looking at you, John Mayer) deserves to be in.

So I guess it is a combination of musical impact AND widespread popularity. The question is how much or how little you are allowed to inhabit either of those categories. A great deal of that is indeed helped by the filter of time. I don't think there's a chance in hell the Velvet Underground would have made the HOF if it existed in the 70s. It took time for the snowball of their influence to be realized. Even their doing something "new" was passed off by a lot of people as artsy fartsy crap at the time, and they were and still are not widely known. But few who know music even remotely would argue their choice now.

You know who I think is a clear HOF band, who hasn't come up? Wilco. This is a band that transcended genres, was just innovative enough, has produced a consistently good catalogue over a long period of time, slowly built a large and solid if not massive fanbase, and turned the music industry on its head. They did everything just enough for the HOF. That to me is a very obvious example, much more clear-cut than a lot of others people have discussed here, yet I know some would be all WHO'S WILCO WTF. Which is why the criteria are important.

Wilco is a for sure... and I've seen them at least 15 times.. they are awesome and influence lots of bands (Dr Dog, Grizzly Bear to name two)

Shoot Ryan Adams will get in.

Pavement for sure... yeah I saw them at least 20 times too

vaticanplum
12-22-2014, 06:16 PM
An addendum to my last point about Wilco: I bet that the role an artist/band inhabits in the history of the music *industry* does play a role, even subconsciously. And as the music industry continues to shift, I bet it will increasingly so.

Led Zeppelin, Wilco, Radiohead -- these are all bands that played a major role in the way music is distributed, in the very way it reaches the public's ears. It may not be something we think about a lot, but the music industry sure does. Obviously it's not enough in itself for a band to be included, but I think it could push a cusp band over the edge (and if a band was able to have the clout to have that kind of impact, then chances are it stood a good chance anyway).

vaticanplum
12-22-2014, 06:31 PM
And many people can't name a song by The Beatles. That means nothing.

Anyone who can't name one song by the Beatles has no business having an opinion on the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

Seriously, I'm not going to ignore people in third-world countries who have, like, no access to music, but by and large you would be hard-pressed to find someone who really doesn't recognize a single Beatles song. Yesterday? Here Comes the Sun? Hey Jude? Penny Lane? Something? Let It Be? I Wanna Hold Your Hand? These songs are part of the fabric of society. If we are actually having a conversation comparing in any sense the widespread knowledge of The Beatles to Tea Leaf Green, I need the last 10 years I've spent on this message board back.

Dom Heffner
12-22-2014, 06:54 PM
That's why I'm curious as to what the actual criteria are. Pavement may be in the top 10% of most influential bands of the last 25 years. There is a very high percentage of musicians -- some of them very successful -- that would cite them as an influence; they have arguably changed the face of American music, both directly and indirectly. Yet most of America could never name a Pavement song.

For that reason, I don't think they deserve to be in. But conversely, I don't think someone who has been enormously popular but brings absolutely nothing new to music and whose influence didn't clearly produce anything new (yeah, I'm looking at you, John Mayer) deserves to be in.

So I guess it is a combination of musical impact AND widespread popularity. The question is how much or how little you are allowed to inhabit either of those categories. A great deal of that is indeed helped by the filter of time. I don't think there's a chance in hell the Velvet Underground would have made the HOF if it existed in the 70s. It took time for the snowball of their influence to be realized. Even their doing something "new" was passed off by a lot of people as artsy fartsy crap at the time, and they were and still are not widely known. But few who know music even remotely would argue their choice now.

You know who I think is a clear HOF band, who hasn't come up? Wilco. This is a band that transcended genres, was just innovative enough, has produced a consistently good catalogue over a long period of time, slowly built a large and solid if not massive fanbase, and turned the music industry on its head. They did everything just enough for the HOF. That to me is a very obvious example, much more clear-cut than a lot of others people have discussed here, yet I know some would be all WHO'S WILCO WTF. Which is why the criteria are important.

What wouldn't be here if Pavement never existed?

I say that just because I think "influential" is a word that people give to bands they like oftentimes when that band isn't really that well known or popular.

Nirvana was influential. The Beatles. The Stones.

I just don't see Pavement influencing anything big in music. I think they have a small intense fanbase that makes them ten feet tall.

westofyou
12-22-2014, 07:00 PM
What wouldn't be here if Pavement never existed?

Pavement is to the scene 20 years ago what VU was to the scene (with a little MC5) was to the scene in 1970


http://www.gq.com/entertainment/music/201003/pavement-indie



There's an inherent problem with writing about Pavement: People tend to know nothing or everything about them. To most of the populace, they were a band with a funny name, one minor MTV hit (1994's "Cut Your Hair"), and a lot of abstract credibility among people who get mad at the radio. But to the kind of hyperintellectual, underemployed people who did not find it strange to buy concert tickets a year in advance—and who will buy the band's upcoming greatest-hits release even if they already have all the tracks—Pavement are the apotheosis of indie aesthetics, the "finest rockband of the '90s," according to former Village Voice critic Robert Christgau. They are remembered as the musical center of the lo-fi era, a designation that's spiritually true but technically wrong.¹ Over the span of five albums and nine EPs, Pavement became a decade-defining band, widely regarded as essential and game changing (at least among those who cared

RichRed
12-22-2014, 07:01 PM
What wouldn't be here if Pavement never existed?


Nickel Creek's cover of "Spit on a Stranger" :D

RedTeamGo!
12-22-2014, 07:04 PM
There is not one song that Phish has recorded that has any type of influence on this country.

Tea Leaf Green? Really? Galactic? Ohhhh, why didn't you say so lol...

I am smiling as I write this, I do not want to hit someone's favorite band, but you put Phish in the hall of fame and the majority of people will have no idea who they are.

And yes, it matters.

And I could apply this to people who are in there already, I'm sure. "Oh you have no idea how much this artist...." Right, and if nobody has any idea, then how influential could they be?

It doesn't have to be a popularity contest, but it also shouldn't be about bands who received a ton of love from 2 ounces of fans.

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Exactly! You've been to 10 Phish shows. Their entire audience is the same people, traveling from town to town.

Honestly, this just screams "I'm out of touch."

Go to any college campus and everyone will know phish.

marcshoe
12-22-2014, 07:06 PM
I love these lists. I love this debate.

I look at a band like Phish and think- I'll bet not one percent of America can name one song they do.



.

Well there's 'Truckin'', 'Casey Jones', 'Uncle John's Band'....

or maybe I'm confusing them with someone else.

Dom Heffner
12-22-2014, 07:12 PM
Honestly, this just screams "I'm out of touch."

Go to any college campus and everyone will know phish.

Yeah. Thanks. As I said when I did college radio, there were Phish fans. Their musical influence and their net were not cast very wide, however.

They may be your favorite band, that's great, the discussion is whether they should be in te hall of fame. And the vast, vast, vast, majority of people could not name one Phish song.

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Well there's 'Truckin'', 'Casey Jones', 'Uncle John's Band'....

or maybe I'm confusing them with someone else.

Classics. Ahem.

RedTeamGo!
12-22-2014, 07:13 PM
Yeah. Thanks. As I said when I did college radio, there were Phish fans. Their musical influence and their net were not cast very wide, however.

They may be your favorite band, that's great, the discussion is whether they should be in te hall of fame. And the vast, vast, vast, majority of people could not name one Phish song.

The vast majority of people cannot name one Lou Reed song.

Most people I know (that are not Phish fans) can name a song.

Both of those statements mean nothing.

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Well there's 'Truckin'', 'Casey Jones', 'Uncle John's Band'....

or maybe I'm confusing them with someone else.

How original.

RedTeamGo!
12-22-2014, 07:15 PM
I would bet $100 Dom loves Def Leppard

marcshoe
12-22-2014, 07:15 PM
How original.

That was my point. ;)

dabvu2498
12-22-2014, 07:15 PM
How is Joe Cocker not in the HoF???

RedTeamGo!
12-22-2014, 07:22 PM
I will never understand people that say phish is a dead copycat.

They sound absolutely nothing alike.

Trey sounds more like Les Dudek or Santana than Jerry.

Dom Heffner
12-22-2014, 07:24 PM
Pavement is to the scene 20 years ago what VU was to the scene (with a little MC5) was to the scene in 1970


http://www.gq.com/entertainment/music/201003/pavement-indie

"People tend to know everything or nothing."

Yes. Precisely.

The people who love them, LOVE them. Most people don't love them because most people have no idea who they are.

The people who know who Pavement are the ones who know Alex Chilton, who wear ironic glasses, wear pea coats and scarves....its hipster music. A Village Voice critic, yes. Exactly. A Village Voice critic would love Pavement and be the exact person to overrate them, while drinking $7 coffee.

Decade defining, that's great. Let me tell you something, the band of that decade was Nirvana and it ain't close.

And that's absolutely fine. But it's hard to make a case for the hall of fame based on a band that nobody's listening to. I doubt if they've sold a million records for their career.

They would be the 2 PM inductee into the hall, and the bands that all their fans make fun of would be in prime time.

Dom Heffner
12-22-2014, 07:26 PM
I would bet $100 Dom loves Def Leppard

I love them and yet I'm not on here campaigning for them to be in the hall.

Dom Heffner
12-22-2014, 07:27 PM
The vast majority of people cannot name one Lou Reed song.

Most people I know (that are not Phish fans) can name a song.

Both of those statements mean nothing.

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How original.

Well Lou Reed is another one who is overrated, but it's like talking to Yankee fans.

RedTeamGo!
12-22-2014, 07:37 PM
Who is hall worthy in your opinion?

I am sensing you think everyone is overrated, other than Guns N Roses, of course.

Dom Heffner
12-22-2014, 07:55 PM
Who is hall worthy in your opinion?

I am sensing you think everyone is overrated, other than Guns N Roses, of course.

Hey at least people outside those who read Bret Easton Ellis knows who they are lol....

There is absolutely nothing wrong with some smack talk when it comes to music.

westofyou
12-22-2014, 08:01 PM
"People tend to know everything or nothing."

Yes. Precisely.

The people who love them, LOVE them. Most people don't love them because most people have no idea who they are.

The people who know who Pavement are the ones who know Alex Chilton, who wear ironic glasses, wear pea coats and scarves....its hipster music. A Village Voice critic, yes. Exactly. A Village Voice critic would love Pavement and be the exact person to overrate them, while drinking $7 coffee.

Decade defining, that's great. Let me tell you something, the band of that decade was Nirvana and it ain't close.

And that's absolutely fine. But it's hard to make a case for the hall of fame based on a band that nobody's listening to. I doubt if they've sold a million records for their career.

They would be the 2 PM inductee into the hall, and the bands that all their fans make fun of would be in prime time.

Who is making a case?

I think a HOF for music is in essence ridiculous, it's like a HOF for painters, subjective and biased based on personal taste.

That said I'll listen to my music and enjoy the crap out of it for the rest of my life, that's my HOF, the only one that matters

Dom Heffner
12-22-2014, 08:09 PM
Who is making a case?

I think a HOF for music is in essence ridiculous, it's like a HOF for painters, subjective and biased based on personal taste.

That said I'll listen to my music and enjoy the crap out of it for the rest of my life, that's my HOF, the only one that matters

There you go being spot on again.

You are actually correct and for art, it's impossible to have a hall of fame with defined criteria...because it means different things to different people.

I am just rattling the cage lol..

marcshoe
12-22-2014, 08:13 PM
I will never understand people that say phish is a dead copycat.

They sound absolutely nothing alike.

Trey sounds more like Les Dudek or Santana than Jerry.

Their sound isn't the point; their whole career path has been constructed to attract Deadheads. I don't mind their sound, but if that were all there was to them, they wouldn't be in the conversation. Their identity revolves around their being the New Dead.

I parked in front of an indy bookstore today while doing Christmas shopping, and the car in front of me had both a Phish sticker and the classic DeadHead sticker on the back, along with several political/cultural stickers. This is pretty typical, and that's fine. My point is that the band has forged an identity which depends largely on the identity of another band, and they have also created a following that imputes what I think is a borrowed gravitas to the group.

RedTeamGo!
12-22-2014, 08:22 PM
Phish did not construct an image of being the next dead, I cannot disagree with that enough.

westofyou
12-22-2014, 08:29 PM
Their sound isn't the point; their whole career path has been constructed to attract Deadheads. I don't mind their sound, but if that were all there was to them, they wouldn't be in the conversation. Their identity revolves around their being the New Dead.

I parked in front of an indy bookstore today while doing Christmas shopping, and the car in front of me had both a Phish sticker and the classic DeadHead sticker on the back, along with several political/cultural stickers. This is pretty typical, and that's fine. My point is that the band has forged an identity which depends largely on the identity of another band, and they have also created a following that holds imputes what I think is a borrowed gravitas to the group.

Yep, completely true

They filled a void when Jerry died, until the mid 90s they were a more regional band (NE) when it came to larger venues and elsewhere much smaller venues. The same could be said for Widespread Panic in the SE or TSCI in the Colorado area.

I am a deadhead, I don't wear on my sleeve, but I love Jerry, solo, with the dead, alone. I believe he was a musical genius, maybe others hate him, but you can't say he wasn't a genuine character/artist from an important time in musical history.

Alas no one will say that about Trey, who is a great guitar player and seems like an ok dude.

When Jerry died a part of me died, and the others... Well they just raced to fill a large void that the marketplace revealed.

Are phish good?

Sure, but mostly their stuff before 95 is what moves me.

vaticanplum
12-22-2014, 09:18 PM
"People tend to know everything or nothing."

Yes. Precisely.

The people who love them, LOVE them. Most people don't love them because most people have no idea who they are.

The people who know who Pavement are the ones who know Alex Chilton, who wear ironic glasses, wear pea coats and scarves....its hipster music. A Village Voice critic, yes. Exactly. A Village Voice critic would love Pavement and be the exact person to overrate them, while drinking $7 coffee.

Decade defining, that's great. Let me tell you something, the band of that decade was Nirvana and it ain't close.

And that's absolutely fine. But it's hard to make a case for the hall of fame based on a band that nobody's listening to. I doubt if they've sold a million records for their career.

They would be the 2 PM inductee into the hall, and the bands that all their fans make fun of would be in prime time.

Dom, with all due respect, you don't need to resort to cheap stereotypes to make your point here. I believe you know too much about music to boil your argument down to how much their fans' coffee costs.

My whole point in bringing up Pavement, again, was to point out a band that I personally do not think has enough mass appeal to be in the HOF. I would say that I don't think mass appeal should be important, but that's an influential band that some would make a case for musically that I just don't think breaks the notoriety barrier enough to qualify.

But it is short-sighted and a little ignorant to dismiss the impact they had on music. Yes, Nirvana was the band of the 90s, and Pearl Jam echoed them to a degree -- and Pavement was the anti-Nirvana in a sense. Just about anything with a lo-fi bent from the early 90s on drew from them either directly or indirectly. They are a musicians' band through and through, never transcended the appeal they had to musicians and a relatively small fanbase. I could never even count the musicians who have cited them over the years as a band that had an impact on them. I am actually not a big Pavement fan myself, but I do love an awful lot of bands that drew from them (including Blur, who completely changed their direction and entire sound after Graham Coxon became obsessed with them in four albums into Blur's career).

dabvu2498
12-22-2014, 10:17 PM
Take this for what it's worth...

I'm 39, graduated from high school in 94, college in 98, and until tonight, I'd never heard of Pavement. I will grant you that my tastes run a little more towards country/folk/Americana, but I think I have pretty varied tastes. (I've even been to TWO!!! Phish shows.) Never heard of Pavement. And after watching 3 youtubes, don't think I will hear them anymore. :)

westofyou
12-22-2014, 10:28 PM
Take this for what it's worth...

I'm 39, graduated from high school in 94, college in 98, and until tonight, I'd never heard of Pavement. I will grant you that my tastes run a little more towards country/folk/Americana, but I think I have pretty varied tastes. (I've even been to TWO!!! Phish shows.) Never heard of Pavement. And after watching 3 youtubes, don't think I will hear them anymore. :)

Yeah, but have you heard of the Bottle Rockets or Uncle Tupelo?

Because mostfolks in the jam band scene or alt country will declare they have not

Dom Heffner
12-23-2014, 12:19 AM
Dom, with all due respect, you don't need to resort to cheap stereotypes to make your point here. I believe you know too much about music to boil your argument down to how much their fans' coffee costs.

My whole point in bringing up Pavement, again, was to point out a band that I personally do not think has enough mass appeal to be in the HOF. I would say that I don't think mass appeal should be important, but that's an influential band that some would make a case for musically that I just don't think breaks the notoriety barrier enough to qualify.

But it is short-sighted and a little ignorant to dismiss the impact they had on music. Yes, Nirvana was the band of the 90s, and Pearl Jam echoed them to a degree -- and Pavement was the anti-Nirvana in a sense. Just about anything with a lo-fi bent from the early 90s on drew from them either directly or indirectly. They are a musicians' band through and through, never transcended the appeal they had to musicians and a relatively small fanbase. I could never even count the musicians who have cited them over the years as a band that had an impact on them. I am actually not a big Pavement fan myself, but I do love an awful lot of bands that drew from them (including Blur, who completely changed their direction and entire sound after Graham Coxon became obsessed with them in four albums into Blur's career).

I think I may have lowballed the coffee. I'll bet Pavement fans would pay $9 for coffee. :)

dabvu2498
12-23-2014, 12:29 AM
Yeah, but have you heard of the Bottle Rockets or Uncle Tupelo?

Because mostfolks in the jam band scene or alt country will declare they have not

I've seen Sun Volt live, actually. UT was a little before my awakening to alt country.

I'm a bit more of a Cowboy Mouth guy, myself. And it doesn't hurt my feelings even a little bit when someone says they've never heard of them.

marcshoe
12-23-2014, 12:31 AM
fwiw, I'm 52 and have Pavement on my current playlist. I'm getting ready to drive to Florida this weekend, though, and think I might go folkie/alt country for the trip. Does My Morning Jacket count as alt country? I get confused. I'm old.

dabvu2498
12-23-2014, 12:40 AM
fwiw, I'm 52 and have Pavement on my current playlist. I'm getting ready to drive to Florida this weekend, though, and think I might go folkie/alt country for the trip. Does My Morning Jacket count as alt country? I get confused. I'm old.

Yeah. I'd say they qualify. Their live show is pretty psychedelic, though.

westofyou
12-23-2014, 01:09 AM
fwiw, I'm 52 and have Pavement on my current playlist. I'm getting ready to drive to Florida this weekend, though, and think I might go folkie/alt country for the trip. Does My Morning Jacket count as alt country? I get confused. I'm old.

1st time I saw MMJ they opened for Guided by Voices, I was told they were like Neil Young, I'm a H U G E Neil fan especially his Time Fades Away - Comes a Time era, they are nothing like Neil other than they all have a penis and make music.

I'd consider them almost without a genre defining sound

BluegrassRedleg
12-23-2014, 02:15 AM
Like others have said, MMJ kind of defies genre - at that's the way they aim. They're all over the map, but always interesting.

RedTeamGo!
12-23-2014, 09:02 AM
fwiw, I'm 52 and have Pavement on my current playlist. I'm getting ready to drive to Florida this weekend, though, and think I might go folkie/alt country for the trip. Does My Morning Jacket count as alt country? I get confused. I'm old.

I don't consider My Morning Jacket a form of country, but this what Wiki says:

Genres Psychedelic rock, alternative rock, roots rock, indie rock, country rock, southern rock

vaticanplum
12-23-2014, 09:02 AM
I think I may have lowballed the coffee. I'll bet Pavement fans would pay $9 for coffee. :)

:p

RedTeamGo!
12-23-2014, 09:04 AM
1st time I saw MMJ they opened for Guided by Voices, I was told they were like Neil Young, I'm a H U G E Neil fan especially his Time Fades Away - Comes a Time era, they are nothing like Neil other than they all have a penis and make music.

I'd consider them almost without a genre defining sound

I used to party with Pollard's son at UD - dude was so full of himself!

redsmetz
12-23-2014, 09:52 AM
How is Joe Cocker not in the HoF???

I was surprised when I read that yesterday too.

redsmetz
12-23-2014, 09:57 AM
I have to say the annual Rock HOF discussion is always an interesting read.

RedTeamGo!
12-23-2014, 10:08 AM
Led Zeppelin, Wilco, Radiohead -- these are all bands that played a major role in the way music is distributed, in the very way it reaches the public's ears. It may not be something we think about a lot, but the music industry sure does. Obviously it's not enough in itself for a band to be included, but I think it could push a cusp band over the edge (and if a band was able to have the clout to have that kind of impact, then chances are it stood a good chance anyway).

This is true for Phish as well. They were one of the first bands to encourage sharing of their music and fans bringing recording devices to their shows. They also provide every show on their website shortly after the show ends.

RedTeamGo!
12-23-2014, 10:12 AM
Sure, but mostly their stuff before 95 is what moves me.

Have you listened to Yarmouth Road by Mike Gordon solo?

They performed it in Chicago - has turned into one of my favorite songs of the past few years.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TI90-WWzWA

westofyou
12-23-2014, 10:20 AM
Not really a fan of any of their solo stuff at all, but for Mike that's kinda funky

RedTeamGo!
12-23-2014, 10:43 AM
Not really a fan of any of their solo stuff at all, but for Mike that's kinda funky

Yea, I generally do not like the solo stuff either. Trey's solo album after the hiatus was not good at all IMO.

Dom Heffner
12-24-2014, 12:22 AM
I sort of poked fun at Pavement and I didn't come off the way I meant to. As someone pointed out, it's very odd to hear the calls for a HOF induction when , let 's face it, they 're trying to be the oddballs. It isn't meant for mass consumption.

Given my shake down of them yesterday, I went on a bit of a Pavement binge today and they certainly have their moments.
"Spit on a Stranger," "Major Leagues," "Stereo," "Elevate Me Later," "Here...."

All great songs- they're a good band.

I think for me, I have a little dislike of Scott Malkmus because he can sound pretty pretentious when speaking about mainstream music. Maybe I'm misreading him but some folks just like to diss popularity... as if the entire masses should run off and enjoy the deeper cuts on albums... which would make them popular and then he'd hate those songs, too.

Anyway, sorry to come off so poorly towards their fans, I was just having a little fun.

GAC
12-25-2014, 05:25 AM
Joan Jett eh?

Meh

Where's ELO?

Totally agree. And where's Deep Purple? They finally got nominated last year, and lost out to Donna Summers??? This year it's Joan Jett? I kinda liked Ian Gillian and Roger Glover's responses though .... "Could really care less. It's an institution. Who wants to be put in an institution? It's ran by a bunch of old guy who thought the Monkees were the American answer to the Beatles."

When I look at the list of those who aren't in, compared to who has been indicted, it's become a joke to me, and this "institution" has lost as relevance as far as I'm concerned. It's become a private club, like a golf club.

Put the Monkees in. I could care less

You said it best here my friend.....


Who is making a case?

I think a HOF for music is in essence ridiculous, it's like a HOF for painters, subjective and biased based on personal taste.

That said I'll listen to my music and enjoy the crap out of it for the rest of my life, that's my HOF, the only one that matters

GAC
12-25-2014, 06:00 AM
Take this for what it's worth...

I'm 39, graduated from high school in 94, college in 98, and until tonight, I'd never heard of Pavement. I will grant you that my tastes run a little more towards country/folk/Americana, but I think I have pretty varied tastes. (I've even been to TWO!!! Phish shows.) Never heard of Pavement. And after watching 3 youtubes, don't think I will hear them anymore. :)

There's a lot of bands mentioned in this discussion, including Pavement, that I've never heard of. When Phish was mentioned I thought they were talking about a Microsoft program (LOL).

It doesn't make me ignorant...... just old! (I'll be 59 soon) ;)

GAC
12-25-2014, 06:59 AM
Sonny and Cher should be in just for the vests!

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608028929839726844&pid=15.1&P=0

Tony Cloninger
12-25-2014, 04:25 PM
Even if Green Day hadn't released another album after Dookie, they'd be deserving. That album introduced punk to the mainstream and kept it there.

Musically, they fall short of many not in the Hall of Fame. But in terms of historical significance, they belong.


Green Day did not introduce punk into the mainstream..... it introduce watered down bubble gum punk and kids bought it as punk. There is nothing punk rock about this band.
The Buzzcocks and The Jam are better than this band but the mainstream or any Top 40 was not ready for any of that when they were together.

I did not expect the mainstream to ever like Black Flag, TSOL and Circle Jerks or DK when I was in HS and they were at their creative peak in the early 80's...... but Green Day was not punk, but good job to them for watering it down and making it seem like the kids were onto something new and edgy.

Joseph
12-25-2014, 05:47 PM
Even if Green Day hadn't released another album after Dookie, they'd be deserving. That album introduced punk to the mainstream and kept it there.

Joe Strummer just rolled over in his grave.

I don't mind Green Day. I loved the first handful of albums even. I used to listen to them fairly regularly in the 90's in college, so I'm not anti-Green Day and don't want to set myself up as such. But to say they introduced punk to the mainstream is a massive stretch. I don't know your age, or if I do its not coming to me immediately, but to me some of the other bands listed elsewhere in this thread did more to introduce punk to the masses than did Green Day. Green Day was about 15 to 20 years after the Ramones, the Sex Pistols, DK, and yes the only band that mattered, the Clash.

GAC
12-27-2014, 04:37 AM
I have to say the annual Rock HOF discussion is always an interesting read.

It really isn't (anymore) just a Rock n Roll Hall of Fame. The diversity of genres being included may justify a name change (LOL).

Of course it all comes down to how one defines the term "rock n roll". My younger brother will always throw at me this argument .... "How can the Beatles' song Yesterday be considered one of the all-time greatest rock n roll songs? Great song, but it ain't rock n roll man!"

He makes a valid point.

Dom Heffner
12-27-2014, 10:05 AM
It really isn't (anymore) just a Rock n Roll Hall of Fame. The diversity of genres being included may justify a name change (LOL).

Of course it all comes down to how one defines the term "rock n roll". My younger brother will always throw at me this argument .... "How can the Beatles' song Yesterday be considered one of the all-time greatest rock n roll songs? Great song, but it ain't rock n roll man!"

He makes a valid point.

Though "Yesterday" is done by a band that is the most important rock and roll band of all time. It's rock, it's just slow rock. That's still rock.

Who gets in, the criteria, what genres are included....all up for debate I guess. I wouldn't normally consider Donna Summer rock, but she was certainly pop, and pop is a subset of rock, absolutely.

Roy Tucker
12-27-2014, 08:14 PM
I went through a Deep Purple phase. "Child In Time" was epic. I wore a headband, velour pants with a button fly, a poofy sleeve shirt, a leather vest, a shag haircut, and lace up to the knees leather boots. I was a rock star. Like, 1971-72. Chicks dug me.

I looked really silly.

westofyou
12-27-2014, 08:58 PM
I went through a Deep Purple phase. "Child In Time" was epic. I wore a headband, velour pants with a button fly, a poofy sleeve shirt, a leather vest, a shag haircut, and lace up to the knees leather boots. I was a rock star. Like, 1971-72. Chicks dug me.

I looked really silly.

Like these guys?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHVz8prFZ9c

*BaseClogger*
12-28-2014, 02:35 PM
The most important punk rock band of the 1990s was Fugazi. What are the chances they'd ever be on a ballot?

westofyou
12-28-2014, 03:18 PM
The most important punk rock band of the 1990s was Fugazi. What are the chances they'd ever be on a ballot?

About the same chance of them having t-shirts at their show with the band name on it?

Joseph
12-28-2014, 03:42 PM
8366

RedFanAlways1966
12-30-2014, 07:28 PM
Like these guys?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHVz8prFZ9c

Some fans of early "solo" Ozzy Osbourne might recognize that drummer.

RedTeamGo!
02-08-2015, 11:19 AM
Too soon to tell on the Black Keys

I was at the Rock and Roll hall of fame yesterday and they already have a section devoted to The Black Keys, so, yeah...

They also have more Beyoncé stuff than Aerosmith, Metallica, Allman Brothers, and Nirvana stuff.

I was disgusted.

GAC
02-15-2015, 04:53 AM
I was at the Rock and Roll hall of fame yesterday and they already have a section devoted to The Black Keys, so, yeah...

They also have more Beyoncé stuff than Aerosmith, Metallica, Allman Brothers, and Nirvana stuff.

I was disgusted.

They're far more afraid of Kanye West! LOL

GAC
02-15-2015, 04:56 AM
Like these guys?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHVz8prFZ9c

The girl in the red dress had the most talent of anyone in that band as far as I'm concerned! LOL

GAC
02-15-2015, 05:07 AM
I just recently had a co-worker ask me about a band I knew nothing about ... Gov't Mule. I did do some research and discovered they were an off-shoot from a couple guys who played with the Allman Brothers. Other then that, I know very little about them, other then they're recent Pink Floyd tribute Album "Dark Side Of The Mule" got excellent reviews, is worth listening, and I'm probably going to pick it up.

What is other's opinion on this band?

RedTeamGo!
02-16-2015, 04:17 PM
I just recently had a co-worker ask me about a band I knew nothing about ... Gov't Mule. I did do some research and discovered they were an off-shoot from a couple guys who played with the Allman Brothers. Other then that, I know very little about them, other then they're recent Pink Floyd tribute Album "Dark Side Of The Mule" got excellent reviews, is worth listening, and I'm probably going to pick it up.

What is other's opinion on this band?

Warren Haynes plays with Gov't Mule. Started as a side project of some Allman Bros dudes in the 90s.

I love The Allman Brothers band and do not like Gov't Mule at all. I cannot stand the singing of Haynes and think his guitar play, while skilled, generic.

If you are looking for a nice taste of southern rock by a band you likely haven't heard of before I suggest Tea Leaf Green.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v221Gbzv6Bw

This is a great song to start. One of my favorite songs that has come out since 2000.

GAC
02-20-2015, 04:48 AM
Thanks RedTeamGo.

I'm an old fart now, but I've always loved the Allman Brothers Band. In the past year I've bought the CDs of a couple albums of theirs I played to death in my younger days... Live At Fillmore East and Eat A Peach.

I really enjoyed Duane Allman. Thought he was one of the best slide guitarists I ever heard, and his collaboration with Clapton .... Layla and Other Assorted Love Songs... is on my All-time greatest album list. Clapton wrote later in his autobiography that he and Allman were inseparable during the sessions in Florida, and called Duane Allman the "musical brother I'd never had but wished I did."

redsmetz
02-20-2015, 09:18 AM
Thanks RedTeamGo.

I'm an old fart now, but I've always loved the Allman Brothers Band. In the past year I've bought the CDs of a couple albums of theirs I played to death in my younger days... Live At Fillmore East and Eat A Peach.

I really enjoyed Duane Allman. Thought he was one of the best slide guitarists I ever heard, and his collaboration with Clapton .... Layla and Other Assorted Love Songs... is on my All-time greatest album list. Clapton wrote later in his autobiography that he and Allman were inseparable during the sessions in Florida, and called Duane Allman the "musical brother I'd never had but wished I did."

Have you ever listened to the Live at Ludlow Garage 1970 CD?

http://www.allmusic.com/album/live-at-ludlow-garage-1970-mw0000203523

RedTeamGo!
02-20-2015, 09:22 AM
Nothing beats Whipping Post on that Live at Fillmore East album.

GAC
02-21-2015, 08:13 AM
Have you ever listened to the Live at Ludlow Garage 1970 CD?

http://www.allmusic.com/album/live-at-ludlow-garage-1970-mw0000203523

Never have... but I'll give it a listen.

NebraskaRed
02-21-2015, 11:51 AM
I was at the Rock and Roll hall of fame yesterday and they already have a section devoted to The Black Keys, so, yeah...

They also have more Beyoncé stuff than Aerosmith, Metallica, Allman Brothers, and Nirvana stuff.

I was disgusted.

It's a business. They're appealing to the majority of people who visit the museum. More visitors would rather seen Beyonce stuff than any of the bands you mentioned.

vaticanplum
02-21-2015, 12:16 PM
It's a business. They're appealing to the majority of people who visit the museum. More visitors would rather seen Beyonce stuff than any of the bands you mentioned.

Yeah, their rotating exhibits have nothing to do with who they've enshrined or intend to. They're not about historical context, they're about bringing people in (and in that sense, they should be current, IMO).