7/19/15 - Reds vs. Native Americans - Cueto on the mound

[Tom Servo]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKSPOIRWUAAd6CC.jpg

[Ironman92]

Really like Frazier getting the day off. I like him starting Friday, but after several poor swings I would've liked to have seen him off vs Kluber yesterday. I'd say a combination of being Mr. Cincinnati and not getting any days off mixed with a bit of extra focus by the pitchers after they all take notice even more after his derby prowess.

He had 1 pretty good swing yesterday in his 3rd or 4th AB so I'll assume he'll be back to being the Todd we love sooner than later.

[OnBaseMachine]

One of the questions on "So you think you're a Reds fan?" just now was who was the last Reds pitcher to win 20 games in a season? Johnny Cueto wasn't listed as one of the four answers. OK.

[OnBaseMachine]

I really hope the Reds didn't hold on to Cueto too long.

[Tom Servo]

So there's no rain, and we're delayed.

[Tadasimha]

Bush League Blue

[OnBaseMachine]

Why in the world would you start this game with storms in the area and your biggest trade chip pitching?

[Big Klu]

Bush League Blue

Seems to me that they made exactly the right call.

[Tom Servo]

I really hope the Reds didn't hold on to Cueto too long.
I feel like they have, though my bigger concern is that he runs to cover first base on a ground ball and gets injured. The fact that he had a tough outing last time and has a few ducks on the pond in this one so far is just some icing on the cake. There were 3 very good times to trade him: After the start against the Twins in what could have been his last home start, after the dominating start against the Nationals, and right after the All Star Game. And the Reds let each of them pass. If Cueto gets injured, the entire front office should be fired.

[OnBaseMachine]

I would have traded him after the dominant start in Washington.

[Tom Servo]

We're back.

Johnny escapes the first unscathed.

[Big Klu]

I feel like they have, though my bigger concern is that he runs to cover first base on a ground ball and gets injured. The fact that he had a tough outing last time and has a few ducks on the pond in this one so far is just some icing on the cake. There were 3 very good times to trade him: After the start against the Twins in what could have been his last home start, after the dominating start against the Nationals, and right after the All Star Game. And the Reds let each of them pass. If Cueto gets injured, the entire front office should be fired.

What was offered, and what did the Reds turn down?

[Tom Servo]

What was offered, and what did the Reds turn down?
Probably the same offers still being fielded 7-10 days later.

[Kc61]

What was offered, and what did the Reds turn down?

I would have traded Cueto before the season, but I agree with Big Klu that it's impossible to have an informed opinion without knowing specific offers.

As for today's start, the Reds need to show the other clubs that Johnny is healthy and pitching well. The outing today is a risk, but unavoidable. Unless he had been traded sooner, which didn't happen.

[Tom Servo]

Joey with a nice putt there.

[Big Klu]

Joey with a nice putt there.

Looked like he was playing croquet.

[Big Klu]

Probably the same offers still being fielded 7-10 days later.


Which means it probably wasn't enough.

Other teams are going to try to lowball the Reds, and the key to negotiations is to not be the first one to blink.

A lot of Reds fans are blinking fools.

[Tom Servo]

Which means it probably wasn't enough.

Other teams are going to try to lowball the Reds, and the key to negotiations is to not be the first one to blink.

A lot of Reds fans are blinking fools.
I just don't think we have that much leverage. I wasn't one of those saying "trade Cueto right now" back in May or June, but it's July now and there are literally just weeks remaining on Cueto's contract. One tweak in his leg or sharp pain in his oblique and we are SOL.

[Tom Servo]

Looked like a quick inning for Johnny but with two outs he walked the catcher and gives up a base hit to the pitcher. Brings up the hot hitting Kipnis.

[OnBaseMachine]

Cueto walks the #8 hitter and gives up a hit on an 0-2 pitch to the pitcher.

[Tom Servo]

Jon Morosi ‏@jonmorosi 2m2 minutes ago
#Angels interested in Jay Bruce. They have a scout watching the #Reds today too. @FOXSports

Jon Morosi ‏@jonmorosi 3m3 minutes ago
#Yankees scouting Johnny Cueto today in Cincinnati. @FOXSports

- - - Updated - - -

4 pitch walk to Kipnis


So this is going great.

[OnBaseMachine]

Four pitch walk. Not the start I had in mind.

[OnBaseMachine]

Cueto looks awful.

[Tom Servo]

Ball 4 walks in a run.

Just kill me.

[OnBaseMachine]

Awful command. Velocity down. Trade value plummeting.

[KYRedsFan]

This would just be perfect for him to be hurt now

[Tom Servo]

Jon Morosi ‏@jonmorosi 58s58 seconds ago
Meanwhile: Cueto has walked 3 batters in the 2nd inning, shying away from using his fastball. Bad signs.


thanks jon

[redsfaninbsg]

All the trade talk may be getting to Cueto.

[Kc61]

This outing is not helping the cause.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Awful command. Velocity down. Trade value plummeting.

Personally, I think this has EVERYTHING to do with the rain delay.

[Always Red]

Jon Morosi ‏@jonmorosi 58s58 seconds ago
Meanwhile: Cueto has walked 3 batters in the 2nd inning, shying away from using his fastball. Bad signs.


thanks jon

The national media sees their job as facilitating all the Reds best players to contending big market teams.

[Tom Servo]

On the plus side that comp pick might be able to help in about 2021.

[androosh]

Got out of it with only 1 run allowed. With how he looked that surprised me. Let's hope no more damage is done today so his value doesn't take another big drop.

[OnBaseMachine]

I hope waiting until the All-Star break to make Cueto available was worth it.

[cincrazy]

They should have traded him in the offseason or even in the middle of last season. Instead, they were preoccupied with putting on a "winner's" vibe with the ASG coming to town, and it left them in a vulnerable spot. Barring serious injury, we'll still get a decent return for him. But not as much of a difference-making deal if we would have dealt him sooner.

[Tom Servo]

I hope waiting until the All-Star break to make Cueto available was worth it.
But what would the fans have thought if Cueto had actually made the all-star game and wore ANOTHER TEAM'S CAP!!!!???

[NebraskaRed]

Cole Hamels is looking awful again, so there's that.

[_Sir_Charles_]

:jump: Eugenio!

[Banshee]

Suarez HR!

[Tom Servo]

Suarez! :jump:

[OnBaseMachine]

Suarez solo HR.

[Kc61]

But what would the fans have thought if Cueto had actually made the all-star game and wore ANOTHER TEAM'S CAP!!!!???

I never understood this.

If Cueto came into Cincy as an A.L. all star, he would have received a huge ovation.

As a non-Reds NL all star? Well, annoying. But he might pitch one inning for 7 minutes, it would have been a big nothing.

Just never understood this big fear of Cueto returning as an all star.

[androosh]

But what would the fans have thought if Cueto had actually made the all-star game and wore ANOTHER TEAM'S CAP!!!!???Chances are if they traded him beforehand he would have made it. It's just been that kind of a year for the Reds.

[Kc61]

Chances are if they traded him beforehand he would have made it. It's just been that kind of a year for the Reds.

It might have added some additional interest in the ASG. Just don't see what the problem was.

[androosh]

I never understood this.

If Cueto came into Cincy as an A.L. all star, he would have received a huge ovation.

As a non-Reds NL all star? Well, annoying. But he might pitch one inning for 7 minutes, it would have been a big nothing.

Just never understood this big fear of Cueto returning as an all star.To me it wasn't really fear but more of a 'slap in the face' to the fans to not keep their home grown guy around. I'm not saying they should or shouldn't have, but that's my thought.

[androosh]

It might have added some additional interest in the ASG. Just don't see what the problem was.I wouldn't have haf a problem with them trading him before the break if they would have, but I can understand from a PR standpoint why they didn't. From a business standpoint he should have been gone right after his 2 hit complete game shutout at the latest, but from a PR standpoint I see why he wasn't.

[Tom Servo]

Johnny going to 3 balls on just about every hitter.

[757690]

But what would the fans have thought if Cueto had actually made the all-star game and wore ANOTHER TEAM'S CAP!!!!???

For the record, Walt during a TV interview during a national game of the week, said that he would have traded Cueto before the All-Star break, if the right offer came along. He specifically said that the future of the team was more important than the All-Star game.

Now, that contradicts what the media has reported, so it might just be GM speak.

[WVRedsFan]

It might have added some additional interest in the ASG. Just don't see what the problem was.Same here. Once they leave, I never root for them or worry about how they are doing. Well, maybe Aaron Harang, but still root against him when playing the Reds. If he goes to another team, I would cheer him if he played the Reds, but hope he has a bad night.

[Tom Servo]

66 pitches, just 37 for strikes so far.

[Kc61]

To me it wasn't really fear but more of a 'slap in the face' to the fans to not keep their home grown guy around. I'm not saying they should or shouldn't have, but that's my thought.

Just think the Reds fans would have warmly welcomed Johnny back in whatever uniform.

And, look, don't the Reds play the Dodgers this year? So if Johnny is traded to the Dodgers and returns to GABP, is that a "slap in the face" and does it eliminate a Dodger trade?

If the fans should have any quibble it's with Johnny who wants a staggering amount of money. Reds have shown they will pay stars. They aren't cheap.

Sorry to derail the game thread, I just don't get all this. You trade the guy when he brings you the biggest return. Period.

[WVRedsFan]

For the record, Walt during a TV interview during a national game of the week, said that he would have traded Cueto before the All-Star break, if the right offer came along. He specifically said that the future of the team was more important than the All-Star game.

Now, that contradicts what the media has reported, so it might just be GM speak.I believe Walt. He might not get the right offer and if he doesn't, he won't pull the trigger.

[Tony Cloninger]

To me it wasn't really fear but more of a 'slap in the face' to the fans to not keep their home grown guy around. I'm not saying they should or shouldn't have, but that's my thought.

It's more of a slap in the face that they don't think fans understand they need to make some moves and start the process.

[NebraskaRed]

Just think the Reds fans would have warmly welcomed Johnny back in whatever uniform.

And, look, don't the Reds play the Dodgers this year? So if Johnny is traded to the Dodgers and returns to GABP, is that a "slap in the face" and does it eliminate a Dodger trade?

If the fans should have any quibble it's with Johnny who wants a staggering amount of money. Reds have shown they will pay stars. They aren't cheap.

Sorry to derail the game thread, I just don't get all this. You trade the guy when he brings you the biggest return. Period.

(1) I agree with you, mostly.

(2) The problem is that you don't know when you'll get "the biggest return". You can say that was last year, you can say that was during the offseason, but you don't know that a desperate team will make a desperate move for Cueto right now.

[Tony Cloninger]

I believe Walt. He might not get the right offer and if he doesn't, he won't pull the trigger.

There is not going to be a right offer. Just the best possible offer. Like Tom said.....that comp pick should help by about 2020. It will probably be some high ceiling athlete with no real true baseball tool, like hitting or pitch recognition.

[Tom Servo]

That Votto is so hot right now.

[WVRedsFan]

Jay's been hot, too, but can't lay off bad balls.

Sucker for low outside ball. Why I don't know.

[NebraskaRed]

Jerry Crasnick ‏@jcrasnick 2m2 minutes ago
Cole Hamels last 2 starts: 6.1 innings pitched, 20 hits allowed, 19.91 ERA, 2 walks, 5 strikeouts. #Phillies

[androosh]

I agree we should have traded Cueto already, I was just pointing out what I thought they felt about how the casual fan felt rather than diehard fans. I agreed with keeping him on to start the season because you never know how it's going to pan out, but as soon as injuries started and it was obvious this team was going nowhere he should have started to be shopped around.

[Kc61]

For the record, Walt during a TV interview during a national game of the week, said that he would have traded Cueto before the All-Star break, if the right offer came along. He specifically said that the future of the team was more important than the All-Star game.

Now, that contradicts what the media has reported, so it might just be GM speak.

He said it, yes, but somehow with the Reds it usually comes down to delayed action or no action. At least in the last two years.

It may be that the ASG is being overreported, that the truth is that Bob just wouldn't forfeit this season. He's competitive, he has fans to attract, it's a business, I get it.

But I hope they understood that the chances of success this year were small, and that they took a calculated risk by holding on to most of their veteran players this long.

[Marty and Joe]

Sure would be nice to see Johnny right the ship and sail through the next few innings.

[Tom Servo]

Another walk to the bad hitting catcher


This is literally going awful. Johnny honestly doesn't look like he has anything today, even his outs are balls right over the middle that the Indians are popping up.

[Banshee]

Keeping Cueto this long has all been about marketing(butts in the seats) and emotion. If they'd been more logical about it, the retooling would've already begun at the latest during the offseason. 12 starts max left this season, not counting the potential playoffs, for JC. The reds have imho done the nigh impossible: minimized the value of their most talented pitcher in 30 yrs. Hope someone is desperate enough to still give fair market value for him.

[Kc61]

Reds could use a couple of strikeouts here. For multiple reasons.

[NebraskaRed]

Keeping Cueto this long has all been about marketing(butts in the seats) and emotion. If they'd been more logical about it, the retooling would've already begun at the latest during the offseason. 12 starts max left this season, not counting the potential playoffs, for JC. The reds have imho done the nigh impossible: minimized the value of their most talented pitcher in 30 yrs. Hope someone is desperate enough to still give fair market value for him.

Little dramatic, no?

[Tom Servo]

Another walk. Based loaded, one out.

5 walks. 1 strikeout.

[WVRedsFan]

If we had anything in the bullpen, I'd remove him, but once again, bases loaded and he stays in to see the big inning for the opposition. Maybe

[OnBaseMachine]

Awful. This is depressing. Cueto's trade value has significantly dropped. They aren't getting a top 100 prospect at this point, let alone top 50.

[Tom Servo]

At this point the earned run damage doesn't even matter. 5 walks to 1 strikeout with 82+ pitches in 4 innings. This is nothing short of a disaster.

[androosh]

If we had anything in the bullpen, I'd remove him, but once again, bases loaded and he stays in to see the big inning for the opposition. MaybeIf the didn't follow the typical reliever/setup/closer bullpen, would you bring up Chapman in a high leverage situation here with 1 out, or is it too early?

[Hillsdale87]

Cueto not exactly boosting his trade value, but at least he's not as bad as Hamels right now

[WVRedsFan]

Too early

[Hillsdale87]

Awful. This is depressing. Cueto's trade value has significantly dropped. They aren't getting a top 100 prospect at this point, let alone top 50.

You think teams are going to ignore the last 3 years and determine his value on his last 10 innings?

[Tom Servo]

Walks in another run. 6 walks.

[Marty and Joe]

About the only bright spot is he's cranked a few up to 94 this inning. Brutal otherwise.

[WVRedsFan]

Gotta get him outa there

[redsfaninbsg]

This is just bizarre, one has to wonder if he's hurt.

[Tom Servo]

You think teams are going to ignore the last 3 years and determine his value on his last 10 innings?
Pretty much, yes. They only get him for a few weeks. What he did before doesn't mean a whole lot.

[OnBaseMachine]

Not even close. Wow. Thanks Bob and Walt!

[WVRedsFan]

At 89 pitches, you have to go out and get him

[Tom Servo]

C. Trent Rosecrans ‏@ctrent 35s35 seconds ago
Cueto’s last 6-walk game was Aug. 23, 2011 against the Marlins #Reds

[Larkin Fan]

Man, this is brutal.

[miamiredskin]

Walks will haunt. Johnny's turned GABP into a Halloween attraction today.

[BluegrassRedleg]

Many fears roaming thru the mind right now.

[WVRedsFan]

Walks in two runners, goes to 3-2 on Santana. Reds dodged a big bullet there. I hope Price doesn't roll him out there for the fifth.

[androosh]

Walks in two runners, goes to 3-2 on Santana. Reds dodged a big bullet there. I hope Price doesn't roll him out there for the fifth.Given his last start and the trade situation, I bet they send him out there for at least the first batter to see I he can have a clean inning and become the pitcher of record. Any hit/walk/whatever and he's pulled.

[NebraskaRed]

Pretty much, yes. They only get him for a few weeks. What he did before doesn't mean a whole lot.

Totally disagree. Unless he's injured, this doesn't mean all that much to a team with playoff hopes. They're getting him for whatever is left of July, all August, all September, and (in theory) October.

Now if he's injured, then yes, nothing he did before matters.

[WVRedsFan]

Given his last start and the trade situation, I bet they send him out there for at least the first batter to see I he can have a clean inning and become the pitcher of record. Any hit/walk/whatever and he's pulled.If he hasn't proved already he has nothing, someone in that dugout is blind and senseless.

[Tom Servo]

Totally disagree. Unless he's injured, this doesn't mean all that much to a team with playoff hopes. They're getting him for whatever is left of July, all August, all September, and (in theory) October.

Now if he's injured, then yes, nothing he did before matters.
If this was right after his complete game shutout and looked like a blip on the radar, it would be one thing. But he looked mediocre in his last outing, and disastrous in this one. I have no doubt teams would still trade for him, but they aren't giving you any players they really value.

[WVRedsFan]

If this was right after his complete game shutout and looked like a blip on the radar, it would be one thing. But he looked mediocre in his last outing, and disastrous in this one. I have no doubt teams would still trade for him, but they aren't giving you any players they really value.Yep, and don't you bet that the baseball media will jump all over this story and every GM will read about how he has slipped, just like they are doing to Hamels.

[NebraskaRed]

If this was right after his complete game shutout and looked like a blip on the radar, it would be one thing. But he looked mediocre in his last outing, and disastrous in this one. I have no doubt teams would still trade for him, but they aren't giving you any players they really value.

His last start was not good, but far from disastrous. 5 innings, 3er, 1 walk. Before that was the complete game shutout, and before that 8 innings, 4 hits, 1 er and 1 walk.

[757690]

Johnny doesn't have it today, and yet, he's only given up two runs, bearing down when it mattered. This start might actually increase his trade value.

Of course, this is illogical, but not any more illogical than thinking that his lack of control today, after a rain delay, would actually lower his trade value in any significant way. Or thinking that his his start right before the All-Star break raised his trade value in any significant way. Teams know they are getting with Cueto. The only thing that would affect his trade value now would be an injury or drop in velocity.

[WVRedsFan]

Jumbo in. Hopefully he won't get bombed.

[Larkin Fan]

Hold on to your seats folks. Jumbo is in.

[Tom Servo]

Think I'm going to go to the park and clear my head.

Sorry for being a miserable sad sack today, just can't shake the feeling that we just any hope of the Reds success in the next few seasons circle the drain. Go Reds.

[NebraskaRed]

If he's not injured, any GM would be insane not to pursue Cueto with the same offer they'd have given a week, two weeks, or a month ago.

[757690]

Nice inning by Jumbo. Good to see him back on track.

[WVRedsFan]

Think I'm going to go to the park and clear my head.

Sorry for being a miserable sad sack today, just can't shake the feeling that we just any hope of the Reds success in the next few seasons circle the drain. Go Reds.I know you've left for the park, but even if he's not going to bring the best prospects, they are just that--prospects and nothing more. It's going to be OK.

[RiverRat13]

If he's not injured, any GM would be insane not to pursue Cueto with the same offer they'd have given a week, two weeks, or a month ago.

No kidding. If a GM was going to give a top 50 prospect after the Washington start and now wouldn't give a top 100, that GM is the one who should be fired, not Walt.

[RedTeamGo!]

Walt should be fired immediately for not trading Cueto before his start.

Totally just destroyed Cueto's trade value.

Why is it so difficult being a Reds fan?

[RedTeamGo!]

If he's not injured, any GM would be insane not to pursue Cueto with the same offer they'd have given a week, two weeks, or a month ago.

Fiction can be fun, but I prefer the reference section. Today's start is one big pile of leverage for every team interested in Cueto, and on top of that it's possible multiple teams just completely lost interest.

[NebraskaRed]

Fiction can be fun, but I prefer the reference section. Today's start is one big pile of leverage for every team interested in Cueto, and on top of that it's possible multiple teams just completely lost interest.

If a team lost interest in Johnny freakin' Cueto because of a mediocre start followed a bad start, which were preceded by amazing...AMAZING starts...then that team is run by Phillies-level idiots.

[RedTeamGo!]

Johnny doesn't have it today, and yet, he's only given up two runs, bearing down when it mattered. This start might actually increase his trade value.

Of course, this is illogical, but not any more illogical than thinking that his lack of control today, after a rain delay, would actually lower his trade value in any significant way. Or thinking that his his start right before the All-Star break raised his trade value in any significant way. Teams know they are getting with Cueto. The only thing that would affect his trade value now would be an injury or drop in velocity.

Today's start did not increase his trade value at all. My goodness.

[faffy42]

That's why you slide headfirst

[ochoa30]

Walt should be fired immediately for not trading Cueto before his start.

Totally just destroyed Cueto's trade value.

Why is it so difficult being a Reds fan?

Unless Cueto's arm is hurt which may very well be the case, his trade value remains the same. We as fans have no idea either way, nor do we know if any team has even offered anything decent to this point. His career speaks for itself. People need to step back from the ledge a little, lol.

[757690]

Today's start did not increase his trade value at all. My goodness.

Read the second paragraph.

[NebraskaRed]

Everyone overreacts in a game thread, and that's understandable, but there is some crazy overreaction going on here today.

[Hillsdale87]

Pretty much, yes. They only get him for a few weeks. What he did before doesn't mean a whole lot.

What he did before means everything. Bad starts happen. Teams are going to get him for 12-18 starts depending on how far they go in the playoffs. Even in this "disastrous" start, he gave up 2 runs and kept his team in the game. If he's injured, sure that hurts his value, but 2 sub-par starts should have little impact. He also had a rain delay 5 minutes into the game, which couldn't have helped.

[RedTeamGo!]

If a team lost interest in Johnny freakin' Cueto because of a mediocre start followed a bad start, which were preceded by amazing...AMAZING starts...then that team is run by Phillies-level idiots.

That wasn't a mediocre start. It was a nightmarish start. Scouts don't care about runs, they care about control and velocity. Cueto, who has missed multiple starts this year because of elbow pain, had 0 control today and his velocity was down. Every team that is interested in Cueto was paying extremely close attention to today's start and Cueto couldn't throw strikes and his fastball was down 2 mph. Reports surfaced yesterday teams are concerned with his health.

The only way today's start could have been worse for Cueto's trade value is if he threw out his arm and left on a hospital bed. It literally would have been better if he gave up 7 runs with only 0-2 walks and his velocity didn't decrease.

This is a sky is falling type start for Cueto and the Reds future.

[WVRedsFan]

Hide the wife and kids, Matheus is in.

And immediately walks the first batter...

And goes 2-0 on the pitcher.

[NebraskaRed]

That wasn't a mediocre start. It was a nightmarish start. Scouts don't care about runs, they care about control and velocity. Cueto, who has missed multiple starts this year because of elbow pain, had 0 control today and his velocity was down. Every team that is interested in Cueto was paying extremely close attention to today's start and Cueto couldn't throw strikes and his fastball was down 2 mph. Reports surfaced yesterday teams are concerned with his health.

The only way today's start could have been worse for Cueto's trade value is if he threw out his arm and left on a hospital bed. It literally would have been better if he gave up 7 runs with only 0-2 walks and his velocity didn't decrease.

This is a sky is falling type start for Cueto and the Reds future.

I said the last start was mediocre, this was bad. And I never said that the start wouldn't affect his trade value, I was commenting on your statement that teams would lose interest because of it. But go on with your bad self, Chicken Little.

[Hillsdale87]

No kidding. If a GM was going to give a top 50 prospect after the Washington start and now wouldn't give a top 100, that GM is the one who should be fired, not Walt.

Cueto is being pursued by 3 of the more analysis heavy front offices in the Astros, Royals, and Dodgers. I don't think they're going to throw out years of analysis and go with their gut by determining a players value based on the last 2 weeks of July

[KittyDuran]

Everyone overreacts in a game thread, and that's understandable, but there is some crazy overreaction going on here today.

Twitter is worse! Some thought Cueto was traded because he was pulled and the score was only 1-2!

[RedTeamGo!]

I didn't say all would, but I think some certainly did, like the Blue Jays who are a game under .500.

This start is a mountain of leverage for every team negotiating with Walt.

I would bet $100 Walt had multiple offers yesterday and this morning better than anything he will be offered starting today.

Just awful. Awful. Awful.

[WVRedsFan]

Matheus is just junk. Walk the first batter and screw up a sacrifice bunt in the field.

[Tony Cloninger]

Maybe he is physiologically hurt by all the trade talk.

[RedTeamGo!]

Cueto is being pursued by 3 of the more analysis heavy front offices in the Astros, Royals, and Dodgers. I don't think they're going to throw out years of analysis and go with their gut by determining a players value based on the last 2 weeks of July

Years of data isn't the issue. A report surfaced yesterday that teams interested in Cueto are concerned with his health. He had no control and lost 2-3 mph on his fastball today. I think old school teams are more likely to say "'meh, just a bad start."

[Tony Cloninger]

I didn't say all would, but I think some certainly did, like the Blue Jays who are a game under .500.

This start is a mountain of leverage for every team negotiating with Walt.

I would bet $100 Walt had multiple offers yesterday and this morning better than anything he will be offered starting today.

Just awful. Awful. Awful.

Spam. Spam Spam.

[NebraskaRed]

Mattheus' trade value plummeted from none to none after this appearance.

[Hillsdale87]

That wasn't a mediocre start. It was a nightmarish start. Scouts don't care about runs, they care about control and velocity. Cueto, who has missed multiple starts this year because of elbow pain, had 0 control today and his velocity was down. Every team that is interested in Cueto was paying extremely close attention to today's start and Cueto couldn't throw strikes and his fastball was down 2 mph. Reports surfaced yesterday teams are concerned with his health.

Was his velocity down? I saw 94 and 95 a few times. Seemed about right. Control was obviously bad, but it was fine last start. He also started, threw 15 pitches and then had a rain delay. That's a more likely cause for not finding his rhythm than an injury

[WVRedsFan]

Maybe he is physiologically hurt by all the trade talk.Welsh mentioned that and it could be. He said Johnny knows nothing but Cincinnati and it has to wear on him.

[Tony Cloninger]

Mattheus' trade value plummeted from none to none after this appearance.

The Reds once got John Franco for Rafael Landestoy and George Foster for Frank Duffy. There is always a chance. :D

[KittyDuran]

Mattheus' trade value plummeted from none to none after this appearance.

That's assuming he had trade value to begin with...

[Marty and Joe]

Now I wouldn't be surprised to see Johnny here for his next start. Certainly today wasn't pretty. But, he did get it back up to 94 in his last inning and didn't appear to be hurt that my untrained eye could see.
Hopefully, just a blip related to being out of sync after the rain delay.
Definitely not what any of us wanted to see out of him today.

[Tony Cloninger]

Welsh mentioned that and it could be. He said Johnny knows nothing but Cincinnati and it has to wear on him.

If the FO that use more stats than the eye test and guts and grits and stuff..... overlook his possible leaving home anxiety and his mental breakdown at PITT during the WC game..... then I won't worry.

I would however look at some of those things with him and so will some teams.

[androosh]

I have this weird, bad feeling that he makes his scheduled starts this Saturday and July 30 with the Reds.

[Hillsdale87]

Years of data isn't the issue. A report surfaced yesterday that teams interested in Cueto are concerned with his health. He had no control and lost 2-3 mph on his fastball today. I think old school teams are more likely to say "'meh, just a bad start."

If he's hurt that would show up on any kind of a screening. I'm sure any team interested in trading is going to want to see a health report up front.

The only way this start should have any impact is if it was health related. If the Reds had any concern about his health they wouldn't have pitched him today

[Kc61]

I have this weird, bad feeling that he makes his scheduled starts this Saturday and July 30 with the Reds.

May be necessary to show Johnny again. Focus on trading Leake now. Too bad, but predictable if you keep waiting.

[WVRedsFan]

Parra add to the misery. Walks Brantley and now it's 3-1 and just awful pitching today.

[Larkin Fan]

This is major league baseball, right?

[androosh]

This is major league baseball, right?The sad thing is that if we trade starters for prospects, the team will probably be worse than it already is the rest of the year...

[WVRedsFan]

This is major league baseball, right?No, it's not. I guess that was a rhetorical question. Sorry.

[Hillsdale87]

If the FO that use more stats than the eye test and guts and grits and stuff..... overlook his possible leaving home anxiety and his mental breakdown at PITT during the WC game..... then I won't worry.

I would however look at some of those things with him and so will some teams.

I can't believe the Dodgers signed Kershaw to a long term deal and didn't consider his 3 bad playoff starts... Don't they know he'll never be able to take them through the playoffs?! None of the teams looking at Cueto are going to worry about that stuff

[RedTeamGo!]

@jonmorosi: Johnny Cueto has walked 5 batters in this game, fueling speculation about whether he's truly healthy. Shying away from fastball.

[NebraskaRed]

The sad thing is that if we trade starters for prospects, the team will probably be worse than it already is the rest of the year...

Anyone calling for a total rebuild, or at least calling for trading Cueto, Leake, Byrd, Bruce, Parra, Chapman, etc. shouldn't then be allowed to complain about how awful the team will be for the rest of the season. That's kinda what happens when you get rid of some of your best pieces.

[Hillsdale87]

The sad thing is that if we trade starters for prospects, the team will probably be worse than it already is the rest of the year...

At least they'll be interesting though. I'm bored with this team because they're bad and have no direction. With a bunch of trades, we may get to see Stephenson, Yorman, maybe even Winker in September, plus whoever comes back in deals. We'd get to see what we're getting the next few years. Right now the Reds are just treading water

[RedTeamGo!]

I can't believe the Dodgers signed Kershaw to a long term deal and didn't consider his 3 bad playoff starts... Don't they know he'll never be able to take them through the playoffs?! None of the teams looking at Cueto are going to worry about that stuff

Didn't say they were concerned with results. They have already stated they are concerned with health and today he looked like something was wrong. No control and according to Indians broadcast fastball was hovering around 92. Maybe they were just wrong about mph.

[androosh]

Anyone calling for a total rebuild, or at least calling for trading Cueto, Leake, Byrd, Bruce, Parra, Chapman, etc. shouldn't then be allowed to complain about how awful the team will be for the rest of the season. That's kinda what happens when you get rid of some of your best pieces.It doesn't make it easier to watch. Really, Cueto is the only one I'd consider trading right now, but I'm not as smart as many of the people on here so I could easily be wrong.

[androosh]

At least they'll be interesting though. I'm bored with this team because they're bad and have no direction. With a bunch of trades, we may get to see Stephenson, Yorman, maybe even Winker in September, plus whoever comes back in deals. We'd get to see what we're getting the next few years. Right now the Reds are just treading waterThat's a good point I hadn't considered.

[NebraskaRed]

Didn't say they were concerned with results. They have already stated they are concerned with health and today he looked like something was wrong. No control and according to Indians broadcast fastball was hovering around 92. Maybe they were just wrong about mph.

I don't think anyone is saying that these past 2 starts don't possibly affect his trade value, it's the idea that anyone would lose interest, or give up on Cueto for one mediocre start and one bad start. This is assuming he's healthy. If something's wrong, then yeah, his trade value goes bye-bye since a team would only get him for the rest of this season.

[RedTeamGo!]

@jonmorosi: #Dodgers scouting Johnny Cueto in Cincinnati today. They are doing due diligence on many starting pitchers. @FOXSports

[Tony Cloninger]

The sad thing is that if we trade starters for prospects, the team will probably be worse than it already is the rest of the year...

Not when you have the Dead Cat Bounce Boogie available on K-TEL.

[Big Klu]

Billy Hamilton is the best defensive outfielder I've seen for the Reds since Eric Davis.

[NebraskaRed]

Billy Hamilton is the best defensive outfielder I've seen for the Reds since Eric Davis.

If he could just figure something out at the plate, he'd be something pretty amazing.

[Hillsdale87]

According to pitch f/x, Cueto's average velocity this season is 92, so his velocity was right on. I just looked through all his pitches on MLB Gameday, and he was averaging above 92 for the last 2 innings. It just took him a little while to get going.

[Tony Cloninger]

Didn't say they were concerned with results. They have already stated they are concerned with health and today he looked like something was wrong. No control and according to Indians broadcast fastball was hovering around 92. Maybe they were just wrong about mph.

He was not responding to the health issue..... He was responding to my post about Cueto's mental makeup when things get a little amped or stressed situations. So unless you have me on ignore I'm not quite sure why someone would respond to a post of my post with something that has nothing to do with what we were both talking about? :confused:

[Hillsdale87]

Cueto was not shying away from his fastball at all. According to Gameday 48 of his 92 pitches were fastballs, and if you include cutters the number is even higher. More or less in line with his season average.

[NebraskaRed]

Cueto was not shying away from his fastball at all. According to Gameday 48 of his 92 pitches were fastballs, and if you include cutters the number is even higher. More or less in line with his season average.

Your facts have no place here.

[Hillsdale87]

Tony is correct. I was responding with excessive snark to his post, not yours :). One other thing about Cueto's makeup... His only other real playoff start was in 2010 in an elimination game. The Reds lost, but Cueto pitched well.

[BluegrassRedleg]

At least they'll be interesting though. I'm bored with this team because they're bad and have no direction. With a bunch of trades, we may get to see Stephenson, Yorman, maybe even Winker in September, plus whoever comes back in deals. We'd get to see what we're getting the next few years. Right now the Reds are just treading water

Totally agree. People will accept the fact that this team will take its lumps if it's the result of getting fresh faces on the field with potential.

[RedTeamGo!]

Your facts have no place here.

You're right. Everything is fine. Nothing to see here. All of the scouts from interested teams didn't walk away concerned at all. All is well!

[NebraskaRed]

You're right. Everything is fine. Nothing to see here. All of the scouts from interested teams didn't walk away concerned at all. All is well!

Your reading comprehension is top notch today.

I said numerous times, it may have affected his trade value. I said numerous times, if he is injured, then it's a serious problem.

[Wheelhouse]

Might make a contending team wonder what the pressure of the playoffs might do to him.

[androosh]

Two on two out for Votto. Would be nice to get at least one run out of this, but an XBH would be better.

[Tom Servo]

That Votto is so hot right now!

3-2 game

[757690]

We got ourselves a ballgame :)

[RedTeamGo!]

Angels scout in attendance to watch Bruce, that isn't going well either.

[Hillsdale87]

You're right. Everything is fine. Nothing to see here. All of the scouts from interested teams didn't walk away concerned at all. All is well!

If his health reports are clean, then no it had no impact. Velocity was good. If his health is fine, do you think any team thinks Cueto is any worse of a pitcher than they did when the game started?

[Razor Shines]

Angels scout in attendance to watch Bruce, that isn't going well either.

Sure isn't. Bruce dropping the MLB's first ever 0-4 today.

[Hillsdale87]

Angels scout in attendance to watch Bruce, that isn't going well either.

Welsh brought this up today, but I don't understand why teams send scouts to look at players. Bruce has been in the league 7 years. Are they really going to find out anything new about him by attending a game?

Anybody know what these scouts are focusing on?

[NebraskaRed]

I don't want to be in last place, but does it really matter?

The answer is no.

[androosh]

I don't want to be in last place, but does it really matter?

The answer is no.If your not first (or the first wild card, or the second wild card), you're last.

[RedTeamGo!]

Sure isn't. Bruce dropping the MLB's first ever 0-4 today.

Nice snark game, bro. Obviously players go 0-4 often, but obviously a 2-4 game with a game tying RBI would look better on a scouting report than 0-4 and a first pitch fly out to shallow right in the most important at bat of the game for the Reds.

And now chapman can't reach 100.

[NebraskaRed]

Nice snark game, bro. Obviously players go 0-4 often, but obviously a 2-4 game with a game tying RBI would look better on a scouting report than 0-4 and a first pitch fly out to shallow right in the most important at bat of the game for the Reds.

And now chapman can't reach 100.

He might be injured. He only struck out 3 people that inning.

[Tom Servo]

Nice snark game, bro. Obviously players go 0-4 often, but obviously a 2-4 game with a game tying RBI would look better on a scouting report than 0-4 and a first pitch fly out to shallow right in the most important at bat of the game for the Reds.

And now chapman can't reach 100.
Bruh, I'm with you on the Cueto outing, but you're going overboard here lol.

[RedTeamGo!]

He might be injured. He only struck out 3 people that inning.

He struck out two. Chapman is still worth a ton, just weird he was throwing 96-98 most of the inning.

[RedTeamGo!]

Lol. Everyone on earth except Byrd knew that was going to be in the dirt.

[Tom Servo]

just weird he was throwing 96-98 most of the inning.
It's really not, happens a lot.

[Razor Shines]

Nice snark game, bro. .

Do you mean that? I'll concede the point if that was sincere.

[Tom Servo]

Suarez with a two out double in the 9th.

[NebraskaRed]

I don't think i'll ever be able to use that bird walking gif ever again.

[WVRedsFan]

You never know, but it looks bleak for the Reds today. Three walked in runs and a loss by 1. It couldn't get any worse even with a gutted team.

[RedTeamGo!]

It's really not, happens a lot.

I don't get to watch on tv often.

- - - Updated - - -


Do you mean that? I'll concede the point if that was sincere.

It was good snark.

[757690]

I really hope Cozart comes back strong next season. I really like Suarez in the lineup, but can't handle him at SS everyday. A rotation of Cozart, Phillips and Suarez at 2B and SS would be very nice next season.

[Tom Servo]

Bourgeois delivers!

Tie game!

[WVRedsFan]

You never know, but it looks bleak for the Reds today. Three walked in runs and a loss by 1. It couldn't get any worse even with a gutted team.

Wrong again.

[757690]

Tie Game!!!

[NebraskaRed]

tie game!

[RedTeamGo!]

Man. I really like this Suarez kid. Even though the catcher didn't get the ball that slide was perfect.

[Razor Shines]

No trades! We're in this playoff race!

Skip's up. Forgot we had him. Never mind. Fire sale.

[Tom Servo]

Can pinch-hitter extraordinare Skippy deliver the game winner?

[NebraskaRed]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/e6d3f992dcd0ec0063ebfac8bc409907/tumblr_mzptxd3nrL1rjwb1io1_500.gif

Walk, rally bird, walk.

[757690]

I said earlier, Jason B getting injured in spring training was a bigger hit to this team than anticipated.

[androosh]

We're tied! There's hope for the season! Sell nobody! Buy all the players!

[Tom Servo]

Can pinch-hitter extraordinare Skippy deliver the game winner?
nope lol

[RBA]

Why do the Reds carry this Cardinal reject? ugh

[WVRedsFan]

Surely, we can bundle Skippy in one of the trades? He is pretty much worthless.

[androosh]

No trades! We're in this playoff race!

Skip's up. Forgot we had him. Never mind. Fire sale.

Beat me to it :(

[RedTeamGo!]

O hey guys. My name is skip Schumaker and I am a professional baseball player.

[Tom Servo]

I said earlier, Jason B getting injured in spring training was a bigger hit to this team than anticipated.
I agree, but only because it could have meant less at-bats for Billy Hamilton.

[WVRedsFan]

WE see the Missle again. Signs of the end of the world

[RedTeamGo!]

Chapman in for 2nd inning has disaster written all over it. Not because of any stats or logic. Just because.

[Tom Servo]

BTW the Reds scored these runs once I came back from dying in the heat at the park. :)

[androosh]

BTW the Reds scored these runs once I came back from dying in the heat at the park. :)Well...go back out there and come back in the bottom of the inning.

[RedTeamGo!]

Uh. Was that a 94 mph fastball?

[BluegrassRedleg]

Stepped away for a bit on "honeydo" chores. How'd we get this thing tied up?

[androosh]

Uh. Was that a 94 mph fastball?Nope, just a fast change up :p

[Tom Servo]

Stepped away for a bit on "honeydo" chores. How'd we get this thing tied up?
Votto with an RBI single in the 8th, Bourgeois with a single to right in the 9th to score Suarez who doubled with 2 outs.

[androosh]

Stepped away for a bit on "honeydo" chores. How'd we get this thing tied up?Votto singled in a run in the 8th and Bourgeois singled in a run in the 9th.

Edit: I'm slow posting everything today :/

[Tom Servo]

Uh. Was that a 94 mph fastball?
There's 100, put the knife away. :)

- - - Updated - - -

I like how Thom says he's not making excuses and then makes excuses.

[RedTeamGo!]

Are any pitchers warm?

Price...sigh....

And before anyone says it: I've never been a proponent for pitching him multiple innings.

[Tom Servo]

Are we going to see the Indians score their 4th run on a walk with the bases loaded?

[NebraskaRed]

http://mentalfloss.com/sites/default/legacy/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/fuel-tank-empty.jpg

I took a picture of Chapman.

[RedTeamGo!]

All signs point to yes.

[757690]

O hey guys. My name is skip Schumaker and I am a professional baseball player.

Hi, my names is Skip Schumaker and I lead the league in pinch hits this year :)

[RedTeamGo!]

Mother of god.

Not like this.
Not like this.

[757690]

With all the bases loaded this game for the Indians, it's a good thing they don't have Pat Tabler on their team anymore.

[BluegrassRedleg]

A :roll: DIS!

[Tom Servo]

Never doubted Chappy for a second.

[muethibp]

And people think he can start?!? Even if he gave up the Marlboro reds, there's no way he could get through 5 innings most days.

[Tom Servo]

And people think he can start?!? Even if he gave up the Marlboro reds, there's no way he could get through 5 innings most days.
Well part of the idea was that if he's going several innings as a starter he wouldn't be pumping it up 95-100 mph on every fastball.

But I don't think about the starting thing much anymore, what's done is done.

[Tom Servo]

De Jesus completes his AB, but appears to be injured. So we got that going for us.

[RedTeamGo!]

Looks like a cramp.

[Tom Servo]

Announcers speculating what to do if De Jesus can't play third and only Barnhart on the bench.

My guess would be Pena at third with Barnhart catching.

[BCubb2003]

Lorenzen in the outfield?

[BluegrassRedleg]

And people think he can start?!? Even if he gave up the Marlboro reds, there's no way he could get through 5 innings most days.

No way of telling that unless it's actually attempted. I think he'd have some bad days, but eventually settle in.

[Banshee]

Vottomatic warming!

[Tom Servo]

That Votto is so hot right now.

[WVRedsFan]

Votto is so hot. Sorry Tom

[RedTeamGo!]

Am I crazy or is Votto grimacing?

[Larkin Fan]

I am anxious to see what the genius Price has up his sleeve now.

[WVRedsFan]

This is going to be a disaster. Holy crap!

[Tom Servo]

BP to shortstop!

Kearns to 3B, Dunn to 1B, Yonder to LF, and Chapman as a starter. :)

[RedTeamGo!]

Brandon Phillips at SS. After clamoring for it for 7 years, it has finally happened.

[Larkin Fan]

Good gawd. Help us.

[Larkin Fan]

Why exactly was Bruce switched out again?

[BCubb2003]

Time for some fielding independent pitching.

[reds1869]

At least no one can accuse this game of being boring.

[RedTeamGo!]

Why exactly was Bruce switched out again?

Nobody seems to know.

[Banshee]

Why exactly was Bruce switched out again?

I think defensive replacement, that Tucker can go get 'em!

[Tom Servo]

Pedro is Villarreal bad.

[RedTeamGo!]

Tucker looks like a little leaguer out there.

[Raisor]

Why exactly was Bruce switched out again?

He's due for a slump?

[Larkin Fan]

Crap, if all was normal BP would have had that.

[Tom Servo]

Nice reaction skills from Skippy.

[RedTeamGo!]

It appears as if the Reds have a new human white flag.

Vote For Pedro

[Gandalf the Red]

Why exactly was Bruce switched out again?

He made it to the second round of interviews, so Hal Morris is flying him to California to meet Mike Scioscia.

[Larkin Fan]

Indians have adopted the strategy of hitting it to the weakest fielder on the field.

[Ironman92]

Oh Guinevere this is a terrible game.

[BluegrassRedleg]

I've never seen anything like what Cleveland has done today. Not in a Major League game. Reminds me of some old high school games.

10 PA with bases loaded, 0-for-7, 3 BBs for all of their runs scored today.

[androosh]

Man, sounds like I had to leave just as the team got more interesting.

[WVRedsFan]

This is going to be good. Big inning

[Larkin Fan]

He made it to the second round of interviews, so Hal Morris is flying him to California to meet Mike Scioscia.

That actually makes sense. Thanks. ;)

[757690]

I was excited when Welsh said that the Reds had more relievers left than the Indians. Then I remembered who those relievers were :(

['69]

Tucker looks like a little leaguer out there.

Unfortunately so does Villarreal.

Bases loaded walk.

[Banshee]

Amazing.

[Tom Servo]

lol

[Larkin Fan]

I have never seen anything like this in my life. Absolutely horrible.

[WVRedsFan]

Nobody seems to know.Just Bryan Einstein doing what he does. Judgment.

[BCubb2003]

The most stunning display of OBP I've ever seen.