Tom Brady beats the NFL in court

[Tom Servo]

AP NFL
‏@AP_NFL
BREAKING: Tom Brady beats #NFL in 'Deflategate' court case, judge nullifies league's 4-game suspension.

[757690]

The 1919 White Sox were also acquitted in the courts.

Boy, the NFL screwed even this up.

[cumberlandreds]

If Goddell has any smarts at all left he won't appeal. Its highly unlikely they would win an appeal IMO.

[Caveat Emperor]

You can believe what you want to believe about what Brady did (or what the Pats did), but the factual case against him in terms of actual evidence was garbage.

[757690]

You can believe what you want to believe about what Brady did (or what the Pats did), but the factual case against him in terms of actual evidence was garbage.

That's not what the judge ruled. He thought Brady was guilty, but that the punishment was too harsh.


Berman had previously pushed for a settlement, calling it a "rational and logical option" as he saw pros and cons to both sides' arguments. After the NFL and its players union failed to do so during last-minute negotiations, the judge said he would deliver a ruling this week.

Berman believes the NFL mishandled the situation, but that Brady was at least somewhat aware of a deliberate attempt to deflate the team's footballs.

The judge ruled that Brady had no reason to know that having a “general awareness” of deflated footballs would subject him to a punishment equal to that for violating the NFL’s collectively-bargained performance enhancing drug policy.

[Caveat Emperor]

That's not what the judge ruled. He thought Brady was guilty, but that the punishment was too harsh.

And the reason the punishment was too harsh was because the NFL moved the goalposts from "Brady deflated footballs and should be punished" to "Brady had 'general awareness' that footballs may have been deflated and should be punished."

So, as I said, the case against Brady was garbage and the NFL was forced to concoct a new rules violation to punish him under -- one which he had no actual notice of -- and they were dinged by the judge as a result.

[Chip R]

This is a body blow for Goodell.

[Sea Ray]

I don't understand why this judge thinks he can tell the NF how to discipline their players

[Stray]

Gotta think Goodell's era is nearing its end. He continues to make things up as he goes and then gets beat in court.

I don't necessarily know how much of that is his fault, since he's essentially a puppet for the owners. He'd never do anything big unless he was told to do so. But since the NFL's punishment system is in need of a total overhaul, moving forward with a new face to protect the owners is the only option that makes sense.

[Dom Heffner]

This is actually bad news for the Steelers, and given that, it's terrific news for me.

[SultanOfSwing]

If Goddell has any smarts at all left he won't appeal. Its highly unlikely they would win an appeal IMO.

They are going to appeal, because why not. However, Judge Berman was very careful in his ruling and word choices in order to prevent an appeal. He never ruled on Goodell's actual power to arbitrate.

[SultanOfSwing]

I don't understand why this judge thinks he can tell the NF how to discipline their players

Because even though it is within the confines of a private corporation, all disciplines and procedures must still abide by general law. Cases like this are often brought to court. Corporations cannot do anything they feel like just because, or because they got their employees to sign an evidently unjust or ambiguous agreement.

[SultanOfSwing]

That's not what the judge ruled. He thought Brady was guilty, but that the punishment was too harsh.

Where did you get that quote from? That is unequivocally false. Judge Berman did not rule on the facts of the case at all--he couldn't. He could only rule on the process involved and Goodell's evident partiality or impartiality. From that perspective he had to take all the conclusions of the Wells Report and other evidence at face value and rule on the process from there on.

On the contrary, as inferred from his questions during court and his use of quotation marks when mentioning the "independent" Wells Report in his ruling, I would venture he viewed the whole thing as hogwash and a possible witch-hunt (as would any reasoning person interested in a holistic view of the facts at hand as opposed to a preferred or prevalent narrative).

[Chip R]

Gotta think Goodell's era is nearing its end. He continues to make things up as he goes and then gets beat in court.

I don't necessarily know how much of that is his fault, since he's essentially a puppet for the owners. He'd never do anything big unless he was told to do so. But since the NFL's punishment system is in need of a total overhaul, moving forward with a new face to protect the owners is the only option that makes sense.

He's not a puppet. A puppet would have had enough sense to quit while he was ahead.

I think the owners need to realize that you, me or anyone could get the kind of money the NFL gets from TV. It's not difficult.

But on this discipline thing, while he may have been prodded by a few owners in this case, he's out of control and it's embarrassing the NFL. Some owners - I believe - wanted him to prove he wasn't Bob Kraft's lackey. So he lowers the boom on Brady despite scant evidence and out and out untruths leaked to the media. I think it eventually ended up as Goodell going on with this out of pure stubbornness.

[SultanOfSwing]

He's not a puppet. A puppet would have had enough sense to quit while he was ahead.

I think the owners need to realize that you, me or anyone could get the kind of money the NFL gets from TV. It's not difficult.

But on this discipline thing, while he may have been prodded by a few owners in this case, he's out of control and it's embarrassing the NFL. Some owners - I believe - wanted him to prove he wasn't Bob Kraft's lackey. So he lowers the boom on Brady despite scant evidence and out and out untruths leaked to the media. I think it eventually ended up as Goodell going on with this out of pure stubbornness.

I think you are spot on. Grigson and Kensil conspired to start it and Goodell supported it for the reasons you mentioned.

[TRF]

This is a body blow for Goodell.

9767

[TRF]

The offense was the equivalent of Joe Niekro scuffing the ball.

Shoulda been kicked out of the game he was playing, playoff game or no and suspended one game. Had they done that, none of this farce of an "investigation" takes place.

Then change the damn rules to use a regulation ball. NBA players don't get a special ball when they are on offense. NHL players don't change the puck. MLB pitchers, who arguably have the single most contact with a ball in any sport don't get specially treated balls.

Yes. I know how that sounds. I smirked as i typed it.

Do that and this never happens again. It ain't that hard.

[JaxRed]

I will be surprised if NFL decides not to appeal. The League has to have the ability to administer punishment for infractions.

[757690]

I don't understand why this judge thinks he can tell the NF how to discipline their players

I was puzzled by this too. It turns out the NFL CBA specifically gives players the opportunity to take any commissioners ruling to federal court, if they disagree with it.

[757690]

And the reason the punishment was too harsh was because the NFL moved the goalposts from "Brady deflated footballs and should be punished" to "Brady had 'general awareness' that footballs may have been deflated and should be punished."

So, as I said, the case against Brady was garbage and the NFL was forced to concoct a new rules violation to punish him under -- one which he had no actual notice of -- and they were dinged by the judge as a result.

He didn't rule that the NFL moved the goalposts. He argued that the NFL handed out a punishment that wasn't in the CBA, and thus. Brady wasn't given sufficient notice of it. The case against Brady wasn't garbage. The handling of the case was garbage.

[757690]

Where did you get that quote from? That is unequivocally false. Judge Berman did not rule on the facts of the case at all--he couldn't. He could only rule on the process involved and Goodell's evident partiality or impartiality. From that perspective he had to take all the conclusions of the Wells Report and other evidence at face value and rule on the process from there on.

On the contrary, as inferred from his questions during court and his use of quotation marks when mentioning the "independent" Wells Report in his ruling, I would venture he viewed the whole thing as hogwash and a possible witch-hunt (as would any reasoning person interested in a holistic view of the facts at hand as opposed to a preferred or prevalent narrative).

The judge wanted the NFL and Brady to workout a compromise, a different, shorter punishment. The NFL refused, which is why the judge ruled against them. If the judge thought the whole thing was "hogwash" he never would have wanted the two sides to compromise, he just would have tossed the whole thing immediately.

[BuckeyeRed27]

He didn't rule that the NFL moved the goalposts. He argued that the NFL handed out a punishment that wasn't in the CBA, and thus. Brady wasn't given sufficient notice of it. The case against Brady wasn't garbage. The handling of the case was garbage.

It is a lot harder to handle the case well when you don't have actual evidence.

[757690]

It is a lot harder to handle the case well when you don't have actual evidence.

It's hard to have actual evidence, if the accused destroys the evidence instead of handing it over, as directed ;)

But I agree the NFL handled this poorly, pretty much like they have handled everything lately. This should have been a simple, open and shut, small case with a slap on the wrist. It serves the NFL right for making it such a grand opera, and failing at it.

[Chip R]

It's hard to have actual evidence, if the accused destroys the evidence instead of handing it over, as directed ;)

But I agree the NFL handled this poorly, pretty much like they have handled everything lately. This should have been a simple, open and shut, small case with a slap on the wrist. It serves the NFL right for making it such a grand opera, and failing at it.

Last I checked you have a right not to incriminate yourself.

[SultanOfSwing]

The judge wanted the NFL and Brady to workout a compromise, a different, shorter punishment. The NFL refused, which is why the judge ruled against them. If the judge thought the whole thing was "hogwash" he never would have wanted the two sides to compromise, he just would have tossed the whole thing immediately.

Wrong! He wanted a settlement because all judges prefer not to rule in cases like this and instead let the parties sort it out. Judge Berman did not rule against the NFL because they refused to settle.
You also don't seem to understand the matter under dispute and litigation. It wasn't Brady's involvement or the case for or against him. It was the process used to punish him and the internal appeals process. Regardless of what the judge felt about the "evidence," Wells Report, etc he could not legally rule on them. It was legally irrelevant to the case before the court.

[Yachtzee]

Last I checked you have a right not to incriminate yourself.

Right not to incriminate yourself is testimonial only. They can't make you say things that incriminate you, but that does not apply to physical evidence and never has. Also, the constitutional protection against self-incrimination only applies when it involves a state actor (i.e. federal, state, or local agents of the government). Last I looked, the NFL is not a government agency. If a player has a protection against self-incrimination involving investigations conducted by the NFL, that would have to be outlined in the CBA.

[SultanOfSwing]

Last I checked you have a right not to incriminate yourself.

Nah, man. If you are really innocent you hand over everything you can since you have nothing to hide. History has proven that you will always be given the benefit of the doubt and nothing will be construed or taken out of context. No one wants to further their own agenda, only prove your innocence!
Especially the NFL front office, the trustworthy steeds of our morality and modern paragon of integrity.

[Revering4Blue]

This is actually bad news for the Steelers, and given that, it's terrific news for me.

With a defense that likely will be lit up like a Christmas Tree all season and with Bell, Pouncey and Bryant all out, it was a safe bet that the Steelers would not have won at Gillette with Garoppolo at QB.

[Revering4Blue]

Both C.E and SultanOfSwing (great handle, BTW) are spot-on.

And I'm hardly a Pats fan.

[Chip R]

Right not to incriminate yourself is testimonial only. They can't make you say things that incriminate you, but that does not apply to physical evidence and never has. Also, the constitutional protection against self-incrimination only applies when it involves a state actor (i.e. federal, state, or local agents of the government). Last I looked, the NFL is not a government agency. If a player has a protection against self-incrimination involving investigations conducted by the NFL, that would have to be outlined in the CBA.

It wasn't evidence because they never asked for it in the first place. There was no subpoena so Brady, no matter how it looked, could destroy the phone if he pleased. It doesn't matter if it's the NFL or the DOJ, you don't have to turn anything over unless you want to or you're legally compelled to. Just because Tom Brady is a star athlete, makes a ton of money and has a supermodel wife doesn't mean he has no rights.

[757690]

Wrong! He wanted a settlement because all judges prefer not to rule in cases like this and instead let the parties sort it out. Judge Berman did not rule against the NFL because they refused to settle.
You also don't seem to understand the matter under dispute and litigation. It wasn't Brady's involvement or the case for or against him. It was the process used to punish him and the internal appeals process. Regardless of what the judge felt about the "evidence," Wells Report, etc he could not legally rule on them. It was legally irrelevant to the case before the court.

Wrong! ;)

The reason why the case went to Judge Berman was because the two sides had exhausted every possible method of resolving this by themselves. The NFL CBA actually says that the final step in arbitrating a decision like this is to take it to federal court, and have a federal judge decide. If Berman wanted to pass this back to the two parties, to resolve this on their own, because he preferred not to rule in the case, then he is shirking his responsibility as a federal judge. He wanted them to work it out, because he thought that both sides had merit, and but that the punishment was unwarranted.

You also are wrong about what I "understand." Re-read my posts. I specifically said that the judge's ruling was about the process and not about Brady's involvement. It was CE who was saying that the judge was saying that the NFL had no case. I was saying that the judge was saying no such thing. He was only commenting on the process and how the NFL screwed it up. Again, if he thought that the case was "hogwash" he never would have heard it, and tossed it out immediately.

Before declaring how "right" you are, how "wrong" someone else is, and what others do and don't "understand," I suggest you brush up on your reading comprehension skills.

[Stray]

He's not a puppet. A puppet would have had enough sense to quit while he was ahead.

I think the owners need to realize that you, me or anyone could get the kind of money the NFL gets from TV. It's not difficult.

But on this discipline thing, while he may have been prodded by a few owners in this case, he's out of control and it's embarrassing the NFL. Some owners - I believe - wanted him to prove he wasn't Bob Kraft's lackey. So he lowers the boom on Brady despite scant evidence and out and out untruths leaked to the media. I think it eventually ended up as Goodell going on with this out of pure stubbornness.

He is very well paid by the owners to be a shield between everything and them. He's not going all in on the Pats unless he has a lot of support. He sure as heck isn't running a sting operation to bust the Patriots w/o a ton of support.

This whole thing has felt a lot more like the collective owners being tired of the Pats shady ways more than anything. Goodell overstepped his power apparently (2nd circuit can still overrule), but he isn't going rogue here. His bosses had to have been pushing him. Which ones were for and against is anyone's guess. I'd bet the Rooney's were one of the ones in Roger's ear tho.

And he'll lose his job over it. Because that's the nature of his job. Jmo.

[Chip R]

He is very well paid by the owners to be a shield between everything and them. He's not going all in on the Pats unless he has a lot of support. He sure as heck isn't running a sting operation to bust the Patriots w/o a ton of support.

This whole thing has felt a lot more like the collective owners being tired of the Pats shady ways more than anything. Goodell overstepped his power apparently (2nd circuit can still overrule), but he isn't going rogue here. His bosses had to have been pushing him. Which ones were for and against is anyone's guess. I'd bet the Rooney's were one of the ones in Roger's ear tho.

And he'll lose his job over it. Because that's the nature of his job. Jmo.

From what I've read, it's 3-4 owners and it isn't the Rooneys. IIRC, it's Dallas, Indy and Baltimore (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2015/08/24/how-does-the-nfls-roger-goodell-stay-in-power-by-acting-like-a-dictator/).I don't think it's 31 others against NE. They believed that he was too easy on Kraft and the Pats during SpyGate so they wanted him to lower the boom on Kraft who was Goodell's biggest supporter. Goodell basically stabbed Kraft in the back over something that was a trivial matter and he went to the wall for this. It's short-sighted for those owners to get involved because there but for the grace of God goeth they.

[GAC]

The courts said OJ was innocent too... for lack of sufficient evidence or whatever. But the court of public opinion is a different matter! ;)

[Slyder]

I can't wait for Father Time to call Brady's number and no amount of "questionable" bs can save them or that stupid bandwagon fanbase from the pit of mediocrity that they wandered out from, when Walt Coleman and the NFL found a way to stick a square peg in a round hole.

[Dom Heffner]

I can't wait for Father Time to call Brady's number and no amount of "questionable" bs can save them or that stupid bandwagon fanbase from the pit of mediocrity that they wandered out from, when Walt Coleman and the NFL found a way to stick a square peg in a round hole.

They keep the Steelers out, which is all I really care about.

[M2]

From what I've read, it's 3-4 owners and it isn't the Rooneys. IIRC, it's Dallas, Indy and Baltimore (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2015/08/24/how-does-the-nfls-roger-goodell-stay-in-power-by-acting-like-a-dictator/).I don't think it's 31 others against NE. They believed that he was too easy on Kraft and the Pats during SpyGate so they wanted him to lower the boom on Kraft who was Goodell's biggest supporter. Goodell basically stabbed Kraft in the back over something that was a trivial matter and he went to the wall for this. It's short-sighted for those owners to get involved because there but for the grace of God goeth they.

The Colts are the ones that fascinate me here. The one ball that was severely underinflated seems to be the one that was in the Colts' custody. And this whole drama did conveniently gloss over the fact that the Colts got their tails handed to them in the AFC championship. The men in the Irsay family also have a somewhat checkered history.

The Colts certainly look like the instigator behind Deflategate. Got a feeling the Patriots have the Colts game circled in their calendar. I think trial by combat is the appropriate way to settle this.

[villain612]

The 1919 White Sox were also acquitted in the courts.

Boy, the NFL screwed even this up.

Imagine how bad the NFL would screw things up if they didn't have a product that practically sells itself.

[Yachtzee]

It wasn't evidence because they never asked for it in the first place. There was no subpoena so Brady, no matter how it looked, could destroy the phone if he pleased. It doesn't matter if it's the NFL or the DOJ, you don't have to turn anything over unless you want to or you're legally compelled to. Just because Tom Brady is a star athlete, makes a ton of money and has a supermodel wife doesn't mean he has no rights.

Evidence is evidence. Whether it is subpoenaed or not does not remove it from the definition of evidence. Evidence is anything that can be used to prove a fact. A subpoena is merely a court order requiring someone to turn over evidence to the party requesting the evidence. Employers can request employees to turn over evidence without a subpoena. But then employers don't have the power to hold stone in contempt for refusing to comply either. And what kind of evidence the NFL can collect and how should probably be spelled out in the CBA. Tom Brady has rights, but his rights vis-a-vis the NFL are different than his Constitutional rights when the government is involved.

Regardless, the judge threw out the suspension based on the NFL's arbitration process being unfair. The inherent unfairness of the NFL's treatment of teams and players has always been a beef of mine. So the fact that Goodell gets bit in the butt by acting unfairly towards Brady to appease owners who felt he was too easy on his buddy Kraft in the past is rather fitting. The sooner Goodell is gone, the better.

[757690]

I wonder if the Reds could have taken Bowie Kuhn to court over the Blue for Revering deal?

Not that I'm still bitter...

[GAC]

But weren't the balls properly inflated after halftime .... when the Pats really put a hurtin' on Indy? So would it have mattered? LOL

[blumj]

How is anyone supposed to know which footballs in any game were ever properly inflated, the intercepted ball was checked 3 times with the same gauge and they got 3 different readings under the same conditions? Even if you take all the premises from the Wells report at face value, the balls the Pats used in the first half were underinflated by about 0.2 psi, that's like one puff if you're blowing up a beach ball or blowing out a candle. If he really stuck a needle in those balls in that bathroom to let that little air out, it's hard to even come up with a more ridiculous exercise in futility.

And, it's pretty easy to tell what Judge Berman thinks of the NFL's case if you read his decision. Him commenting on the facts of the case directly could make it easier to overturn on appeal, but he's practically mocking certain aspects of it.

[George Anderson]

But weren't the balls properly inflated after halftime .... when the Pats really put a hurtin' on Indy? So would it have mattered? LOL

That is like saying well the pitcher only used the vaseline in the last half of the game and the other team still won.

Bottom line is cheating is wrong and the Patsies continue to do it and thumb their nose at the NFL.

[SultanOfSwing]

That is like saying well the pitcher only used the vaseline in the last half of the game and the other team still won.

Bottom line is cheating is wrong and the Patsies continue to do it and thumb their nose at the NFL.

Continue to cheat? When have they been proven to cheat before? (If you think Spygate was cheating, you should research it more.) Can you point to any proof they cheated during the past AFC Championship game? Wells certainly couldn't find any. (In contrast, the Indianapolis Colts unequivocally violated a clear rule by testing the pressure of a Patriots' football three times on the sideline. Why has the NFL never thought about disciplining them?)

We should all invest ourselves in the pursuit of truth more often. In my opinion, this entire circus has highlighted how untrustworthy and reactionary the media has become. We cannot rely on headlines, but must delve deeper into what facts we can find in any matter that is pertinent to ourselves or we wish to discuss.

[George Anderson]

Continue to cheat? When have they been proven to cheat before? (If you think Spygate was cheating, you should research it more.) Can you point to any proof they cheated during the past AFC Championship game? Wells certainly couldn't find any.



Um the Pats were punished for SpyGate and were fined one million dollars and lost a first round draft pick for Deflategate, but yet to some the poor innocent lads did nothing wrong.

[SultanOfSwing]

This is a body blow for Goodell.

I didn't realize it before, but this won't be a true body blow until (if) they lose the appellate case. The stupidity and hubris of the league knows no bounds. It is bad for them now, but if they lose the appeal this ruling effectively becomes law that all judges nationwide must abide by. Right now its merely a strong suggestion. The league can likely gain very little to nothing by appealing, but they can lose EVERYTHING. The NFLPA and Kessler probably couldn't believe their ears and celebrated when they heard the NFL would appeal.

[SultanOfSwing]

Um the Pats were punished for SpyGate and were fined one million dollars and lost a first round draft pick for Deflategate, but yet to some the poor innocent lads did nothing wrong.

I didn't say or imply they did nothing wrong. They clearly did. However, I now do not believe it was cheating or close to it. No advantage was gained or sought. And it seems nearly any reasonable person in or around the NFL agrees with that perspective. How many current and former coaches have clearly stated they did not view as cheating?

And I come from the perspective of thinking they had cheated, until I looked closer at the actual facts instead of the prevailing narrative and headlines. It was very eye-opening.

[George Anderson]

I didn't say or imply they did nothing wrong. They clearly did. However, I do not believe it was cheating or close to it. No advantage was gained or sought. And it seems nearly any reasonable person in or around the NFL agrees with that perspective. How many current and former coaches have clearly stated they did not view as cheating?

If no advantage was gained or sought, then why did they do it?

[SultanOfSwing]

Wrong! ;)

The reason why the case went to Judge Berman was because the two sides had exhausted every possible method of resolving this by themselves. The NFL CBA actually says that the final step in arbitrating a decision like this is to take it to federal court, and have a federal judge decide. If Berman wanted to pass this back to the two parties, to resolve this on their own, because he preferred not to rule in the case, then he is shirking his responsibility as a federal judge. He wanted them to work it out, because he thought that both sides had merit, and but that the punishment was unwarranted.

You also are wrong about what I "understand." Re-read my posts. I specifically said that the judge's ruling was about the process and not about Brady's involvement. It was CE who was saying that the judge was saying that the NFL had no case. I was saying that the judge was saying no such thing. He was only commenting on the process and how the NFL screwed it up. Again, if he thought that the case was "hogwash" he never would have heard it, and tossed it out immediately.

Before declaring how "right" you are, how "wrong" someone else is, and what others do and don't "understand," I suggest you brush up on your reading comprehension skills.

First of all, I sincerely apologize if my post came across as snarky or high-handed. It was not my intent, though I understand tone can be difficult to determine and civil, purposeful discussion can be rare on the internet.

I think you are misunderstanding part of the process and misreading Berman's viewpoint. If you are to take the assumption that Brady is innocent (regardless of your opinion, but that is his stance and he must proceed thusly) what option of resolution did he have outside of Federal court? Everything was slanted against him and the arbitration was patently biased and pre-determined. I don't think you can reasonably say both sides had already exhausted every possibility to resolve this on their own.

Berman could not legally rule on the case against Brady, only how it was the arbitration and punishment was meted out. You and I seem to agree on that. He effectively had to assume the Wells report was fair and factual (even though he seemed to clearly indicate he thought it was farcical in his ruling). A settlement was the easiest conclusion for his court and he was clearly pressing the NFL to drop their side before the ruling.

However, I do not understand where you get the impression that the judge thought Brady was guilty. Though he had to be careful in his wording, I thought he pretty clearly showed his opinion of the entire case against Brady. You should read the following article. Despite the source, it is a reasonable summary of Judge Berman's apparent opinion of the NFL and its case against Brady.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/deflategate-decision-tom-brady_55e86c63e4b0c818f61afb74

[SultanOfSwing]

If no advantage was gained or sought, then why did they do it?

Honestly, and I'm not trying to be snarky in the slightest, if you are truly interested in the answer you should research it for yourself. I doubt a simple answer in this forum would be satisfactory. Specifically, look at which rule they violated, when it changed, how they violated it, and for how long.

And in my opinion, they likely did it because of ego/hubris or employee mistake or miscommunication.

[Razor Shines]

The Colts are the ones that fascinate me here. The one ball that was severely underinflated seems to be the one that was in the Colts' custody. And this whole drama did conveniently gloss over the fact that the Colts got their tails handed to them in the AFC championship. The men in the Irsay family also have a somewhat checkered history.

The Colts certainly look like the instigator behind Deflategate. Got a feeling the Patriots have the Colts game circled in their calendar. I think trial by combat is the appropriate way to settle this.

Good to see Tom Brady's dad posts on the board. Who glosses over the Colts getting killed? It's mentioned all the time. I'm sure the Colts have that game circled as well.


Continue to cheat? When have they been proven to cheat before? (If you think Spygate was cheating, you should research it more.) Can you point to any proof they cheated during the past AFC Championship game? Wells certainly couldn't find any. (In contrast, the Indianapolis Colts unequivocally violated a clear rule by testing the pressure of a Patriots' football three times on the sideline. Why has the NFL never thought about disciplining them?)

We should all invest ourselves in the pursuit of truth more often. In my opinion, this entire circus has highlighted how untrustworthy and reactionary the media has become. We cannot rely on headlines, but must delve deeper into what facts we can find in any matter that is pertinent to ourselves or we wish to discuss.

Good. Heavens. I'm fine with Brady's suspension being nullified, it was the right move. The victory dance by Pats fans is kind of annoying though.

[George Anderson]

Good. Heavens. I'm fine with Brady's suspension being nullified, it was the right move. The victory dance by Pats fans is kind of annoying though.

I have battled Pats fans on FB pages for some stupid reason and the best answers I get from them defending Brady and the Pats is....

1) All teams cheat, the league owners are just picking on Brady and the Pats because they are tired of them winning.

2) Every one who attacks the Pats for deflategate are just jealous and.a hater because they are jealous of the Pats and how good looking and successful Tom Brady is who btw is married to a super model.

It has gone from irritating and insane to down right comical the past 48 hours.

[M2]

Good to see Tom Brady's dad posts on the board. Who glosses over the Colts getting killed? It's mentioned all the time. I'm sure the Colts have that game circled as well.

You have no idea how little I care about the outcome of any NFL game, but the Colts are shady.

[757690]

I didn't say or imply they did nothing wrong. They clearly did. However, I now do not believe it was cheating or close to it. No advantage was gained or sought. And it seems nearly any reasonable person in or around the NFL agrees with that perspective. How many current and former coaches have clearly stated they did not view as cheating?

And I come from the perspective of thinking they had cheated, until I looked closer at the actual facts instead of the prevailing narrative and headlines. It was very eye-opening.

You don't think that Spygate or deflating the footballs is cheating? I'm having a hard time typing this as I am laughing so hard. There really is no point debating this issue with someone who is so clearly biased and unable to accept reality.

[George Anderson]

You don't think that Spygate or deflating the footballs is cheating? I'm having a hard time typing this as I am laughing so hard. There really is no point debating this issue with someone who is so clearly biased and unable to accept reality.

I am at the same point with NE fans.

The koolaid is strong up there.

[Revering4Blue]

I am at the same point with NE fans.

The koolaid is strong up there.

And now we've been informed that the Pats are as clean as a whistle and that the Colts are shady?

That's rich.

[SultanOfSwing]

Good to see Tom Brady's dad posts on the board. Who glosses over the Colts getting killed? It's mentioned all the time. I'm sure the Colts have that game circled as well.



Good. Heavens. I'm fine with Brady's suspension being nullified, it was the right move. The victory dance by Pats fans is kind of annoying though.

Not a Pats fan. And I'm certainly not doing a victory dance.

[SultanOfSwing]

You don't think that Spygate or deflating the footballs is cheating? I'm having a hard time typing this as I am laughing so hard. There really is no point debating this issue with someone who is so clearly biased and unable to accept reality.

You think I'm biased. Have you done more research and fact-finding than me? Have you tried to cut through the muck, or just scanned the headlines and went with your favorite narrative? I'm asking honestly. Maybe you have and our opinions just differ. If you haven't however, I don't see how you can rule that I am "clearly biased and unable to accept reality."

[Razor Shines]

Not a Pats fan. And I'm certainly not doing a victory dance.

No of course not, no one is. I heard Robert Craft said he just has a passing interest in the team.

[SultanOfSwing]

And now we've been informed that the Pats are as clean as a whistle and that the Colts are shady?

That's rich.


I really doubt they are clean as a whistle. I really doubt any team is clean. It seems a safe assumption that cheating is rampant in such a competitive environment with so much money and fame at stake, whether it be individual employees or organizational philosophy. Unfortunately, I'm sure the Reds cheat or bend the rules in some way. As much as I would like my favorite team to be entirely virtuous, reality often sucks.
Am I'm not trying to excuse any cheating as okay, because "everyone does it." Not at all. Rather I just prefer to hold people and organizations accountable for what they have been proven to do. Innocent until PROVEN guilty.
This applies to the current Cardinals' hacking scandal. I loathe them and would love to see them knocked down several pegs. However, I will not do that until more facts come out and we are certain they sought an advantage and it was known by high-ranking executives.

[SultanOfSwing]

No of course not, no one is. I heard Robert Craft said he just has a passing interest in the team.
Huh?

[GAC]

That is like saying well the pitcher only used the vaseline in the last half of the game and the other team still won.

Bottom line is cheating is wrong and the Patsies continue to do it and thumb their nose at the NFL.

I'm not disagreeing at all with what you're saying.... but right after this happened, numerous NFL QB's came out, as well as Indy's Andrew Luck (who said he prefers over-inflated balls), and admitted they liked the balls inflated in accordance to their own personal preference. Personally, I think it's a practice that has been going on for years, everyone knows it's going on, ignores or looks the other way at it.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/21/leinart-says-every-quarterback-tampers-with-the-ball-except-one/

Aaron Rodgers admits to over-inflating ...... http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/20/aaron-rodgers-likes-his-footballs-overinflated/

so be fair and punish them all. LOL

It's nothing more then whining by a the Colt's owner who has his own history of alleged cheating.

[blumj]

Okay, if anyone's really interested, stop talking to random fans and read the Wells report, the transcripts of the appeal hearing, the filings of the NFL and NFLPA, and Judge Berman's decision yourself. I don't believe there was tampering because reading all those things leads me to the conclusion that the NFL's case is garbage sprinkled with red herrings and outright deceptions. I certainly don't expect anyone to trust the Patriots, but that's not a particularly good reason to trust the NFL, either. There's a reason they keep getting their decisions overturned by courts and neutral arbitrators in all these disciplinary cases and I doubt it's because their attorneys are incompetent.

[757690]

I read everything, and it's clear as day to me that the Pats cheated by deflating the balls, and that Brady knew about it. It's also clear as day that the NFL bungled the investigation, and that Berman was correct in vacating the suspension. It's very similar to a defendant getting off because the cops didn't follow the rules during their investigation, like not getting the correct warrant, or getting them a lawyer when they asked for one.

I understand why Pats want to believe that there was no tampering, I wanted to believe Pete Rose at first too. But the evidence is very clear. They cheated, and Brady was part of it.

[George Anderson]

I read everything, and it's clear as day to me that the Pats cheated by deflating the balls, and that Brady knew about it. It's also clear as day that the NFL bungled the investigation, and that Berman was correct in vacating the suspension. It's very similar to a defendant getting off because the cops didn't follow the rules during their investigation, like not getting the correct warrant, or getting them a lawyer when they asked for one.

I understand why Pats want to believe that there was no tampering, I wanted to believe Pete Rose at first too. But the evidence is very clear. They cheated, and Brady was part of it.

I compare it to how the feds could never get Al Capone. Al was to smart to do the crimes himself so he ordered others to do it so he would never get caught. Replace Capone with Brady and Belicheck and you get what happened with deflategate.

The thing is Al eventually got caught.

[M2]

And now we've been informed that the Pats are as clean as a whistle and that the Colts are shady?

That's rich.

Honestly, don't care about the cleanlinss/filth level of the Pats. My reaction to them would be the same if they are 0-16 or 16-0. When I followed football I was a fan of the Washington Racist Mascots.

But the Colts are full on shady. Best as anyone can determine, the Colts took an intercepted football and drained some air out of it to get their opponent in trouble. Who does that kind of crap?

[757690]

Honestly, don't care about the cleanlinss/filth level of the Pats. My reaction to them would be the same if they are 0-16 or 16-0. When I followed football I was a fan of the Washington Racist Mascots.

But the Colts are full on shady. Best as anyone can determine, the Colts took an intercepted football and drained some air out of it to get their opponent in trouble. Who does that kind of crap?

Hey, I'm the crackpot, crazy conspiracy theorist on this board. Stop trying to steal my title :p

[757690]

You think I'm biased. Have you done more research and fact-finding than me? Have you tried to cut through the muck, or just scanned the headlines and went with your favorite narrative? I'm asking honestly. Maybe you have and our opinions just differ. If you haven't however, I don't see how you can rule that I am "clearly biased and unable to accept reality."

This is what I came up with when researching it further:

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13533995/split-nfl-new-england-patriots-apart


Now it was Goodell's turn. The league office lifer, then 49 years old, had been commissioner just 18 months, promoted, in part, because of Kraft's support. His audience wanted to know why he had managed his first crisis in a manner at once hasty and strangely secretive. Goodell had imposed a $500,000 fine of Belichick, a $250,000 fine of the team and the loss of a first-round draft pick just four days after league security officials had caught the Patriots and before he'd even sent a team of investigators to Foxborough, Massachusetts. Those investigators hadn't come up empty: Inside a room accessible only to Belichick and a few others, they found a library of scouting material containing videotapes of opponents' signals, with detailed notes matching signals to plays for many teams going back seven seasons. Among them were handwritten diagrams of the defensive signals of the Pittsburgh Steelers, including the notes used in the January 2002 AFC Championship Game won by the Patriots 24-17. Yet almost as quickly as the tapes and notes were found, they were destroyed, on Goodell's orders: League executives stomped the tapes into pieces and shredded the papers inside a Gillette Stadium conference room.

[TRF]

Phrasing people, PHRASING!

heh.

Tom Brady uses an under inflated football. Patriots fined $1M, lose draft picks and Brady is suspended 4 games, later overturned in court.

Colts owner drives drunk, is arrested and the NFL... cricketts.


Priorities.

[Slyder]

Phrasing people, PHRASING!

heh.

Tom Brady uses an under inflated football. Patriots fined $1M, lose draft picks and Brady is suspended 4 games, later overturned in court.

Colts owner drives drunk, is arrested and the NFL... cricketts.


Priorities.

I might be thinking about a Donk's guy but didn't he get 8 games plus rehab?

[bucksfan2]

Phrasing people, PHRASING!

heh.

Tom Brady uses an under inflated football. Patriots fined $1M, lose draft picks and Brady is suspended 4 games, later overturned in court.

Colts owner drives drunk, is arrested and the NFL... cricketts.


Priorities.

The owner of your company goes out and gets a DUI what happens to him?

The owner of your company is cooking the books to show a profit that isn't there, what happens to him?

[Razor Shines]

I might be thinking about a Donk's guy but didn't he get 8 games plus rehab?

It was 6 games, fined $500K I believe, rehab and banned from Tweeting about NFL.

[Razor Shines]

This is what I came up with when researching it further:

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13533995/split-nfl-new-england-patriots-apart

It does make sense that Goodell attempted a "make up call" in the ridiculous handling of "Deflategate."

[dabvu2498]

I might be thinking about a Donk's guy but didn't he get 8 games plus rehab?

Irsay got 6 games, 500k fine.

[TRF]

Irsay got 6 games, 500k fine.

gotcha. Guess i missed it because it took a while to get around to it.

500K for drunk driving $1M for a slightly deflated football?

Goodell is a joke.

[Chip R]

gotcha. Guess i missed it because it took a while to get around to it.

500K for drunk driving $1M for a slightly deflated football?

Goodell is a joke.

One of those two is one of his bosses. The other one is not.

But the point is well taken. I said the judge's decision last week was a body blow for Goodell. This may be the knockout punch. Even the owners that are rather neutral on the whole Deflategate saga have to wonder about him when he's showed so much favortism to the Pats over the years.

[Sea Ray]

Because even though it is within the confines of a private corporation, all disciplines and procedures must still abide by general law. Cases like this are often brought to court. Corporations cannot do anything they feel like just because, or because they got their employees to sign an evidently unjust or ambiguous agreement.

So what laws were broken?

[Chip R]

NFL Source: Tom Brady will serve a four-game suspension at some point this season

http://news.yahoo.com/nfl-source-tom-brady-serve-131628730.html

[Assembly Hall]

NFL Source: Tom Brady will serve a four-game suspension at some point this season

http://news.yahoo.com/nfl-source-tom-brady-serve-131628730.html

And I just smashed my cell phone...I do it all the time.

[dubc47834]

NFL Source: Tom Brady will serve a four-game suspension at some point this season

http://news.yahoo.com/nfl-source-tom-brady-serve-131628730.html

Unfortunately everything I have heard on this today says this is wishful thinking on the NFL's part. Probly right.

[M2]

NFL Source: Tom Brady will serve a four-game suspension at some point this season

http://news.yahoo.com/nfl-source-tom-brady-serve-131628730.html

In related news, monkeys are flying out of Roger Goodell's butt. If there's anything to be learned from Deflategate, it's that "NFL sources" are a font of confusion and disinformation.

[blumj]

I'd guess that whoever it was may have been informed they were requesting an expedited schedule and assumed that meant it would be heard a lot sooner than these things actually take in real life and also assumed the NFL would win. In reality the request for an expedited schedule only seems to make it more likely the case could be decided before next season.

[Razor Shines]

Now I drafted Brady on my fantasy team for very cheap (in an auction draft) before his suspension reversed, I don't need 4 games of Tyrod Taylor. I'm fine with a Brady running up the score with vengeance in his heart.....I mean it doesn't appear as if the Colts will even be as much of a challenge to the Pats in the AFC as they were last year.

[Sea Ray]

A lot of assumptions with this report, not the least of which is that the NFL will win this appeal

[blumj]

The motion to expedite granted, and the earliest it could be heard is the week of Feb. 1, the Super Bowl is Feb. 7.

https://twitter.com/BobMcGovernJr/status/648955107896393728

[Chip R]

The motion to expedite granted, and the earliest it could be heard is the week of Feb. 1, the Super Bowl is Feb. 7.

https://twitter.com/BobMcGovernJr/status/648955107896393728

So much for that four game suspension.