Lawsuit: University of Tennessee Had “Deliberate Indifference” Toward Sexual Assaults

[RedTeamGo!]

http://deadspin.com/lawsuit-university-of-tennessee-had-deliberate-indiff-1758199264?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitte r&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

Wow, if even half of this is true, what a disgusting athletic program.

[Boston Red]

Rick Pitino thanks you Tennessee.

[Dom Heffner]

http://deadspin.com/lawsuit-university-of-tennessee-had-deliberate-indiff-1758199264?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitte r&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

Wow, if even half of this is true, what a disgusting athletic program.

Probably true of all of them.

OJ got to drive around LA and have a phone chat with is mom...something they do for all double murder suspects.

[RedTeamGo!]

Probably true of all of them.

OJ got to drive around LA and have a phone chat with is mom...something they do for all double murder suspects.

Funny you mention that, I watched the June 17, 1994 30 for 30 doc last night and it focused on the bronco chase. It is such a strange event.

[Chip R]

Funny you mention that, I watched the June 17, 1941 30 for 30 doc last night and it focused on the bronco chase. It is such a strange event.

1941?

[Assembly Hall]

1941?

Great movie!!!!!!!!!

[Boston Red]

Funny you mention that, I watched the June 17, 1941 30 for 30 doc last night and it focused on the bronco chase. It is such a strange event.

Did they cover the Howard Stern fan pranking Peter Jennings live on air during the standoff?

[dubc47834]

http://deadspin.com/lawsuit-university-of-tennessee-had-deliberate-indiff-1758199264?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitte r&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

Wow, if even half of this is true, what a disgusting athletic program.

If all this is true, then I think Tennessee's athletics programs that supported this should get the "death penalty". Or at least it should be considered. This is on par with Penn State's issues!

[Dom Heffner]

If you can rape children under the guise of your program, nothing is ever going to happen to anybody.

Remember- sports are important.

[paintmered]

Remember- sports are important.

Sports in college towns make the local power brokers rich.

It's the same fundamental corruption at work in Happy Valley, Knoxville, Tallahassee, Columbus, etc.

[RedTeamGo!]

Sports in college towns make the local power brokers rich.

It's the same fundamental corruption at work in Happy Valley, Knoxville, Tallahassee, Columbus, etc.

Happy Valley is a college town, Columbus is the 15th largest city in the country.

[Dom Heffner]

Sports in college towns make the local power brokers rich.

It's the same fundamental corruption at work in Happy Valley, Knoxville, Tallahassee, Columbus, etc.

Even when it doesn't make anybody rich, everybody loves a sports hero.

[paintmered]

Happy Valley is a college town, Columbus is the 15th largest city in the country.

Columbus is absolutely a college town, even if it is larger than most. Austin is too, and it has a similar population to Columbus.

And citing city population over MSA population is silly.

[Assembly Hall]

As a UT fan, I am ashamed of these revelations. And that is putting it kindly.

[Brutus]

I didn't think Penn State should be punished by the NCAA and I don't think Tennessee should either. Why punish innocent athletes for things that will be handled appropriately by a legal system? Honestly our society has a sense of moral superiority when it comes to rival sports programs, and I don't think that has a place in dealing with injustice.

Keeping innocent students out of postseason activities isn't going to change things or deter individuals from breaking the law. Heck, the people at Penn State broke the law and risked their own livelihood and careers, yet people think putting them on probation and banning them from the postseason is some deterrent for future employees?

Punish the people involved as they should be. Don't punish those who had nothing to do with it.

On a side note, if this is true, this isn't a UT problem. This is a culture issue. Our whole society has caused these widespread issues.

[Chip R]

I didn't think Penn State should be punished by the NCAA and I don't think Tennessee should either. Why punish innocent athletes for things that will be handled appropriately by a legal system? Honestly our society has a sense of moral superiority when it comes to rival sports programs, and I don't think that has a place in dealing with injustice.

Keeping innocent students out of postseason activities isn't going to change things or deter individuals from breaking the law. Heck, the people at Penn State broke the law and risked their own livelihood and careers, yet people think putting them on probation and banning them from the postseason is some deterrent for future employees?

Punish the people involved as they should be. Don't punish those who had nothing to do with it.

On a side note, if this is true, this isn't a UT problem. This is a culture issue. Our whole society has caused these widespread issues.

You make some great points, Brutus. It's difficult to disagree with them.

It's a shame to punish student-athletes for something they didn't have anything to do with but that goes on all the time for violations. It's not right but there really is no other deterrent. In these cases, the university covered up misdeeds by their athletes and staff. The players at UT could get away with these things because they were athletes and athletics is the golden goose in Knoxville as it is in Happy Valley and other places. If you have athletic department and university staff covering up crimes by their players, the NCAA needs to step in. Hit them in the pocketbook where it hurts. The athletes may be punished by no postseason play but how much of a punishment is that? They still get room, board, tuition and exposure. Ben Simmons at LSU probably won't play in the NCAA tournament. Is that unfair to him that he picked a bad team to play at? Is not playing in the tournament going to affect his draft slot? Football players aren't necessarily judged by their performance in bowl games. It's one game and that's a pretty small sample size to judge someone by. If I were an NFL scout and looking at a UT player, I'd judge him how he played against Bama, LSU, Florida, et. al rather than some bowl game against a Sun Belt team.

[Redsfaithful]

Columbus is absolutely a college town, even if it is larger than most. Austin is too, and it has a similar population to Columbus.

And citing city population over MSA population is silly.

Austin and Columbus are both too big to be college towns by any reasonable definition.

A college town is one where the influx of students outnumbers year round population or comes close.

Ohio State and Texas are huge parts of Austin and Columbus but they aren't the sole defining part of either city, except maybe to sports fans.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Ohio State and Texas are huge parts of Austin and Columbus but they aren't the sole defining part of either city, except maybe to sports fans.

On Austin, I agree with you. The music and art scenes are remarkable. The movie industry is booming. Tech too.

But Columbus? Every other business is dedicated to tOSU or its students.

[Redsfaithful]

On Austin, I agree with you. The music and art scenes are remarkable. The movie industry is booming. Tech too.

But Columbus? Every other business is dedicated to tOSU or its students.

Around campus? Sure. In general, beyond showing support, no I don't see that at all.

I've created lists of best college towns for different websites, and we disqualify based on proportion of students to full time residents. If you don't, the backlash is huge. I mean every major city in America has numerous colleges, it doesn't make them college town.

When you say college town people think Athens, Ohio, they don't think Pittsburgh even though there are dozens of colleges in Pittsburgh.

Anyway, it's a derail.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Around campus? Sure. In general, beyond showing support, no I don't see that at all.

I've created lists of best college towns for different websites, and we disqualify based on proportion of students to full time residents. If you don't, the backlash is huge. I mean every major city in America has numerous colleges, it doesn't make them college town.

When you say college town people think Athens, Ohio, they don't think Pittsburgh even though there are dozens of colleges in Pittsburgh.

Anyway, it's a derail.

When you say you're from Columbus, the first thing people mention is Ohio State, yes?

It's not just a college in town-- its the college in town.

And that's why it's a college town.

[Redsfaithful]

When you say you're from Columbus, the first thing people mention is Ohio State, yes?

Right, because of the football team being so famous. Doesn't make it a college town.

[RedTeamGo!]

When you say you're from Columbus, the first thing people mention is Ohio State, yes?

It's not just a college in town-- its the college in town.

And that's why it's a college town.

When I meet someone from Columbus I say "Oh, whereabouts?"

[puca]

When you say you're from Columbus, the first thing people mention is Ohio State, yes?

It's not just a college in town-- its the college in town.

And that's why it's a college town.

Just because people identify Columbus with Ohio State doesn't make it a college town - not that there is anything wrong with being a college town. Columbus is the state capital and home to two major league sports teams. It's been (many) years since I lived in central Ohio (way before they had any pro sports team), but even at that point I thought it was pretty cool with plenty of amazing things to do that had nothing to do with Ohio State. Although I do admit that the local media and advertising was annoyingly fixated on the Buckeyes.

During high-school I had a job that involved driving all around Columbus delivering architectural designs. I saw a lot of the city and always wished to move back there. Unfortunately I've heard it has grown to somewhat unwieldy proportions, so the charm I remember is probably been all but squeezed out. Not that any of this has anything to do with the thread title.

[Assembly Hall]

I got to quit drinking......I thought this was a Tennessee thread.

[Sea Ray]

We'll see where this goes. This is the University's response:


"Like the many other college campuses facing the challenges of sexual assault, the University of Tennessee, Knoxville, has devoted significant time and energy to provide a safe environment for our students, to educate and raise awareness about sexual assault, and to encourage students to come forward and report sexual assault. When the University receives a report of sexual assault, we offer care and support to the person who came forward and work to investigate and resolve the matter in a timely, thorough, and equitable manner. When warranted, the University takes disciplinary action but will not do so in a manner that violates state law or the constitutional due process rights of our students.

In the situations identified in the lawsuit filed today; the University acted lawfully and in good faith, and we expect a court to agree. Any assertion that we do not take sexual assault seriously enough is simply not true. To claim that we have allowed a culture to exist contrary to our institutional commitment to providing a safe environment for our students or that we do not support those who report sexual assault is just false. The University will provide a detailed response to the lawsuit and looks forward to doing so at the appropriate time, and in the proper manner."

My guess is that some money will change hands and it'll be dropped

[Dom Heffner]

I didn't think Penn State should be punished by the NCAA and I don't think Tennessee should either. Why punish innocent athletes for things that will be handled appropriately by a legal system? Honestly our society has a sense of moral superiority when it comes to rival sports programs, and I don't think that has a place in dealing with injustice.

Keeping innocent students out of postseason activities isn't going to change things or deter individuals from breaking the law. Heck, the people at Penn State broke the law and risked their own livelihood and careers, yet people think putting them on probation and banning them from the postseason is some deterrent for future employees?

Punish the people involved as they should be. Don't punish those who had nothing to do with it.

On a side note, if this is true, this isn't a UT problem. This is a culture issue. Our whole society has caused these widespread issues.

Because the er, program looked the other way while it was happening. Because football was more important than protecting little kids from having to be a depository fro Jerry Sandusky.

[Assembly Hall]

Because the er, program looked the other way while it was happening. Because football was more important than protecting little kids from having to be a depository fro Jerry Sandusky.

I think Brutus was spot on with his post. I know sports are important at these universities as is the money they generate. But more often than not when the NCAA steps in the innocent pay for a "crime" they had nothing to do with. Criminal activity is just that...criminal activity. Let the ones that did the crime pay for it and those that had anything to do with a "cover-up" pay for it as well. I dont know what the exact answer is to all this stuff that has been going on, but it seems that what we got right now is broke and needs fixed.

[Yachtzee]

I didn't think Penn State should be punished by the NCAA and I don't think Tennessee should either. Why punish innocent athletes for things that will be handled appropriately by a legal system? Honestly our society has a sense of moral superiority when it comes to rival sports programs, and I don't think that has a place in dealing with injustice.

Keeping innocent students out of postseason activities isn't going to change things or deter individuals from breaking the law. Heck, the people at Penn State broke the law and risked their own livelihood and careers, yet people think putting them on probation and banning them from the postseason is some deterrent for future employees?

Punish the people involved as they should be. Don't punish those who had nothing to do with it.

On a side note, if this is true, this isn't a UT problem. This is a culture issue. Our whole society has caused these widespread issues.

I absolutely think the programs should be punished, because the whole incentive to cover this stuff up is to protect the program and the big money boosters behind it. If there wasn't huge amounts of money at stake, there wouldn't be the incentive to cover up the bad behavior in the program. Why should a program that harbors a culture of criminal behavior be allowed to continue? Now I agree that the athletes who weren't involved should not be punished, but I think the answer to that is simple, give them the choice of either 1) finishing school at the current university, which will have to honor their scholarships, or 2) allowing them a free transfer to any school of their choice and make them eligible to play immediately without having to sit out a year. As it is right now, it seems like programs are just as willing to cover things up and pay a settlement the victim down the road just to keep the players on the field until they graduate. Just go out and win games and we'll let the lawyers sort it out later.

[gonelong]

I absolutely think the programs should be punished, because the whole incentive to cover this stuff up is to protect the program and the big money boosters behind it. If there wasn't huge amounts of money at stake, there wouldn't be the incentive to cover up the bad behavior in the program. Why should a program that harbors a culture of criminal behavior be allowed to continue?

Yup.


Now I agree that the athletes who weren't involved should not be punished, but I think the answer to that is simple, give them the choice of either 1) finishing school at the current university, which will have to honor their scholarships, or 2) allowing them a free transfer to any school of their choice and make them eligible to play immediately without having to sit out a year. As it is right now, it seems like programs are just as willing to cover things up and pay a settlement the victim down the road just to keep the players on the field until they graduate. Just go out and win games and we'll let the lawyers sort it out later.

double yup.

GL

[Assembly Hall]

I absolutely think the programs should be punished, because the whole incentive to cover this stuff up is to protect the program and the big money boosters behind it. If there wasn't huge amounts of money at stake, there wouldn't be the incentive to cover up the bad behavior in the program. Why should a program that harbors a culture of criminal behavior be allowed to continue? Now I agree that the athletes who weren't involved should not be punished, but I think the answer to that is simple, give them the choice of either 1) finishing school at the current university, which will have to honor their scholarships, or 2) allowing them a free transfer to any school of their choice and make them eligible to play immediately without having to sit out a year. As it is right now, it seems like programs are just as willing to cover things up and pay a settlement the victim down the road just to keep the players on the field until they graduate. Just go out and win games and we'll let the lawyers sort it out later.

I cant disagree with anything you said right there and that is a fair take. I do get a bad taste in my mouth when administration is involved with the cover-up or had a hand in it. And those bastards are the ones that more often than not get off the hook.

[Brutus]

I absolutely think the programs should be punished, because the whole incentive to cover this stuff up is to protect the program and the big money boosters behind it. If there wasn't huge amounts of money at stake, there wouldn't be the incentive to cover up the bad behavior in the program. Why should a program that harbors a culture of criminal behavior be allowed to continue? Now I agree that the athletes who weren't involved should not be punished, but I think the answer to that is simple, give them the choice of either 1) finishing school at the current university, which will have to honor their scholarships, or 2) allowing them a free transfer to any school of their choice and make them eligible to play immediately without having to sit out a year. As it is right now, it seems like programs are just as willing to cover things up and pay a settlement the victim down the road just to keep the players on the field until they graduate. Just go out and win games and we'll let the lawyers sort it out later.

You can punish a program without punishing the athletes.

I don't know why people have got it in their heads that a postseason ban is the only way to go. What about heavy fines? Postseason money forfeitures? What about postseason bans for coaches? What about suspensions or fines for athletic directors? There are a lot of ways to punish a program and the guilty parties without punishing the players that had nothing to do with it.

[Boston Red]

Money fines are a terrible idea. Oklahoma State would start cheating like nobody's business if the only consequence was that Pickens had to write another check.

[cumberlandreds]

Money fines are a terrible idea. Oklahoma State would start cheating like nobody's business if the only consequence was that Pickens had to write another check.

You are correct. Boosters would cover any fine the NCAA would hand down. Same for post season money forfeitures. Coaches suspensions,scholarship limitations and post season bans are about the only effective punishments the NCAA has to offer.

[Yachtzee]

You can punish a program without punishing the athletes.

I don't know why people have got it in their heads that a postseason ban is the only way to go. What about heavy fines? Postseason money forfeitures? What about postseason bans for coaches? What about suspensions or fines for athletic directors? There are a lot of ways to punish a program and the guilty parties without punishing the players that had nothing to do with it.

A lot of these universities have endowments that are so large that they can pay the fines out of the interest and still have money left over to allow their entire student body to go to school for free forever. I think the only credible threat that will bring these programs to end the culture of covering up criminal behavior is to have the possibility of a program death penalty hanging over their head like the Sword of Damocles. They have tons of money, coaches and ADs can move on, but as long as they can keep the cash cow (the program) mooing, any monetary penalties or suspensions are a mere inconvenience. Fines, postseason bans, and suspensions are fine for rules violations, but covering up criminal behavior demands a stronger response.

[SunDeck]

Maybe the proper punishment is that the school should actually be required to provide a real education for the "student athletes" they bring into their programs. Or better yet, require them to admit athletes who read at a post secondary level, have passed high school algebra and pre-calc, and have graduated with a GPA of 2.5. If they wish to hire, er...recruit athletes who do not meet those standards, then they must provide a written intervention plan that details how they will help that student meet the academic requirements of admission BEFORE he is allowed to participate in games.

[Chip R]

Maybe the proper punishment is that the school should actually be required to provide a real education for the "student athletes" they bring into their programs. Or better yet, require them to admit athletes who read at a post secondary level, have passed high school algebra and pre-calc, and have graduated with a GPA of 2.5. If they wish to hire, er...recruit athletes who do not meet those standards, then they must provide a written intervention plan that details how they will help that student meet the academic requirements of admission BEFORE he is allowed to participate in games.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. A lot of these athletes do not wish to do the work it takes to get a "real education." Theoretically - and possibly practically - speaking, a basketball player can enroll and do just enough work to stay eligible in the fall semester then sign up for spring classes and hardly even go to class. They may become ineligible but by that time the semester is over and they are off to the NBA.

OTOH, a high school education in Dublin, OH is not the same as one in Watts. I was fortunate I had a stable home environment with a mother and father that cared about me and provided me with three squares and an environment to do my homework in. I went to school in a safe environment with good teachers. A lot of students aren't so fortunate. You may have kids who are very intelligent but cannot get the work done because they have to look after siblings because one or both or their parents have to work nights. They may not even be able to have a decent meal or wear decent clothes. They get to school and have to worry about their lunch money getting stolen. The teachers either don't care or they are made to teach enough for the students to score at a certain level on the standardized tests.

There needs to be a firm hand with the athletic programs once the kids get there. I know a certain amount of favoritism is going to happen with other students and some faculty. I think a lot of that is on the coaches. I think a lot of the legal problems these colleges have is because the coaches have a laissez-faire attitude towards their athletes. They are treated with a "boys will be boys" attitude. Whereas programs that make class attendance mandatory and do not gloss over misdeeds by their players do not have those legal problems. Kids may not like that but I think they will respect a coach who doesn't let them get away with stuff.

I know the NFL and NBA are against this but perhaps there will be fewer problems in colleges if there aren't players in there just marking time until they get drafted. If a high school senior thinks he can play in the NFL or the NBA, I don't see the logic of making him go to college. It would be a more difficult transition for football players but perhaps the rate of failure will convince the players to go to college instead. Once at college, they have to stay three years then they are eligible to be drafted. I would also modify the rule that once a football players declares for the draft, he cannot return to college if he is dissatisfied where he was picked - or if he isn't picked at all.

[Beltway]

My guess is that some money will change hands and it'll be dropped
Maybe, but what should also happen is Manning should have a nationally televised press conference where he admits that he has always been a liar, gives Jamie Naughtright several million dollars, and is tied down while 100 drunk fans of other SEC schools teabag him.

[Dom Heffner]

You can punish a program without punishing the athletes.

I don't know why people have got it in their heads that a postseason ban is the only way to go. What about heavy fines? Postseason money forfeitures? What about postseason bans for coaches? What about suspensions or fines for athletic directors? There are a lot of ways to punish a program and the guilty parties without punishing the players that had nothing to do with it.

By not punishing the athletes you are rewarding the program. It can't run without athletes.

To say that Penn State should be able to have a football program because we can't punish future athletes...that is absurd.

Pick another school. Preferably one that doesn't have a thing for children.

[Assembly Hall]

By not punishing the athletes you are rewarding the program. It can't run without athletes.

To say that Penn State should be able to have a football program because we can't punish future athletes...that is absurd.

Pick another school. Preferably one that doesn't have a thing for children.

I see where you are coming from Dom cant argue the stance at all.

Although in Penn St.'s case the athletes weren't the problem.

Somehow it seems that everybody seems to have forgotten what happened with the Baylor basketball team not all that many years ago. Dang, that involved murder and a cover-up!!!!!

Anyhow this is the way I see it...the inmates(athletes) are running the asylum(University) and the asylum is perfectly happy with the monetary arrangement.

[Dom Heffner]

I see where you are coming from Dom cant argue the stance at all.

Although in Penn St.'s case the athletes weren't the problem.

Somehow it seems that everybody seems to have forgotten what happened with the Baylor basketball team not all that many years ago. Dang, that involved murder and a cover-up!!!!!

Anyhow this is the way I see it...the inmates(athletes) are running the asylum(University) and the asylum is perfectly happy with the monetary arrangement.

When are the athletes ever the problem?

You punish the program. If you allow the kids to play football, you aren't punishing the program.

[SunDeck]

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. A lot of these athletes do not wish to do the work it takes to get a "real education." Theoretically - and possibly practically - speaking, a basketball player can enroll and do just enough work to stay eligible in the fall semester then sign up for spring classes and hardly even go to class. They may become ineligible but by that time the semester is over and they are off to the NBA.

OTOH, a high school education in Dublin, OH is not the same as one in Watts. I was fortunate I had a stable home environment with a mother and father that cared about me and provided me with three squares and an environment to do my homework in. I went to school in a safe environment with good teachers. A lot of students aren't so fortunate. You may have kids who are very intelligent but cannot get the work done because they have to look after siblings because one or both or their parents have to work nights. They may not even be able to have a decent meal or wear decent clothes. They get to school and have to worry about their lunch money getting stolen. The teachers either don't care or they are made to teach enough for the students to score at a certain level on the standardized tests.

There needs to be a firm hand with the athletic programs once the kids get there. I know a certain amount of favoritism is going to happen with other students and some faculty. I think a lot of that is on the coaches. I think a lot of the legal problems these colleges have is because the coaches have a laissez-faire attitude towards their athletes. They are treated with a "boys will be boys" attitude. Whereas programs that make class attendance mandatory and do not gloss over misdeeds by their players do not have those legal problems. Kids may not like that but I think they will respect a coach who doesn't let them get away with stuff.

I know the NFL and NBA are against this but perhaps there will be fewer problems in colleges if there aren't players in there just marking time until they get drafted. If a high school senior thinks he can play in the NFL or the NBA, I don't see the logic of making him go to college. It would be a more difficult transition for football players but perhaps the rate of failure will convince the players to go to college instead. Once at college, they have to stay three years then they are eligible to be drafted. I would also modify the rule that once a football players declares for the draft, he cannot return to college if he is dissatisfied where he was picked - or if he isn't picked at all.

My post was partly with tongue in cheek, but I won't backtrack on one thing; we are talking about college where there are presumably things like admission requirements. The fact that some of these young athletes can't read or have horrible grades in subpar high schools is a terrible thing and it should be fixed, but that is not the problem of the universities. So what this amounts to is really them taking advantage of these gifted individuals, who receive in return a scholarship. Some say that is enough, but if the college agrees to take them on they should also agree to take on the task of helping that young person reach certain levels of educational attainment. Otherwise it's just taking advantage of them for their physical talents. Honestly, I think all of major college sports is culpable.

[dubc47834]

When are the athletes ever the problem?

You punish the program. If you allow the kids to play football, you aren't punishing the program.

A lot of times these athletes know what they are doing is wrong. Whether its taking money or putting their genitals on someones face! These parents arent totally blameless either. Plenty of blame to go around...parents, athletes, and the schools.

[Yachtzee]

My post was partly with tongue in cheek, but I won't backtrack on one thing; we are talking about college where there are presumably things like admission requirements. The fact that some of these young athletes can't read or have horrible grades in subpar high schools is a terrible thing and it should be fixed, but that is not the problem of the universities. So what this amounts to is really them taking advantage of these gifted individuals, who receive in return a scholarship. Some say that is enough, but if the college agrees to take them on they should also agree to take on the task of helping that young person reach certain levels of educational attainment. Otherwise it's just taking advantage of them for their physical talents. Honestly, I think all of major college sports is culpable.

The thing is, a lot of these student-athletes don't go to sub-par high schools. A lot of them actually end up getting recruited and end up playing for elite high schools with nationally ranked football and/or basketball programs. They could have gotten a sufficient education to help them succeed in college at the high school level, but the elite high school really just cared about their athletic skills. In Northeast Ohio, two of the best schools in state athletics, St. Eds and St. Ignatius, are also top notch private Catholic schools. The have excellent academics and sports programs. The sports programs are such that they often travel out of state in order to schedule games against some of the top schools in other states and get their games on ESPN. As good as their academics are, I have a hard time believing that their student-athletes are getting the same education that regular students get when they have to miss class in order to travel out of state.

Of course these schools will trot out the players who get 4.0s and make the all-state academic team, but I suspect those players that do well academically do so because they have the support of a family that makes sure they're getting their make-up work done so that they don't miss out. But those who don't have the good habits to study and work on their own, I suspect they get enough tutoring to get by and keep them on the field.

The more I hear about big time college sports, and even big program high school sports, the more I wonder if we're better off with a system where high school and college sports are divorced from education and become more of a semi-pro operation, where athletes get paid or get stipends, room and board to work on their sports skills, much like the club and academy system in Europe. Schools could then focus their time, effort, and money on doing what they're supposed to be doing according to their charter, educating students.

[SunDeck]

One strategy is to recruit the best players for the field (or court) and the best brains for the bench. NCAA cares about the average GPA. I agree, also, that many of the players who are top recruits come from elite, or maybe rather specialized schools, but I didn't want to be distracted from the point that big program sports (with the blessing of the NCAA) really couldn't care less about academics.

[Sea Ray]

My post was partly with tongue in cheek, but I won't backtrack on one thing; we are talking about college where there are presumably things like admission requirements. The fact that some of these young athletes can't read or have horrible grades in subpar high schools is a terrible thing and it should be fixed, but that is not the problem of the universities. So what this amounts to is really them taking advantage of these gifted individuals, who receive in return a scholarship. Some say that is enough, but if the college agrees to take them on they should also agree to take on the task of helping that young person reach certain levels of educational attainment. Otherwise it's just taking advantage of them for their physical talents. Honestly, I think all of major college sports is culpable.

UT athletes including the football team are doing very well with their GPA

http://www.utsports.com/genrel/060214aab.html

[SunDeck]

UT athletes including the football team are doing very well with their GPA

http://www.utsports.com/genrel/060214aab.html

Based on what has been documented at places like Auburn where there were entire majors made up for football players and other universities where high profile athletes took classes specifically dumbed down so that they could be passed with a minimum of engagement, I would like to know more about what the students are studying. If they are keeping their GPAs up with actual college level course material, then it's a nice indicator. Otherwise, it's just a number.

[Assembly Hall]

Based on what has been documented at places like Auburn where there were entire majors made up for football players and other universities where high profile athletes took classes specifically dumbed down so that they could be passed with a minimum of engagement, I would like to know more about what the students are studying. If they are keeping their GPAs up with actual college level course material, then it's a nice indicator. Otherwise, it's just a number.

Seems like not all that long that every member of the Duke basketball team was majoring in sociology!

[SunDeck]

I think the issue here, for me at least, is that the NCAA is just lying with their marketing messages about "student athletes". Sure, kids who are swimming or golfing, or those who are at D4 (or whatever) schools have little prospects for becoming professional athletes. But the kids recruited into high profile D1 programs are brought on board specifically because they are gifted and talented athletes (even though most of them have little hope of making it into the professional ranks). To lump all the athletes together without acknowledging the obvious differences between those who are recruited to become part of the huge financial machine of major college sports and those who are just college students who happen to play a sport pretty well, is disingenuous.Yet, that is exactly what they do through their public messaging and their commercials. Am I really supposed to believe the field hockey player and the Heisman candidate are having the same college experience or are even there for the same reasons?



Seems like not all that long that every member of the Duke basketball team was majoring in sociology!
See:

Football Major, Basketball Minor? (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/08/education/edlife/football-major-basketball-minor.html)

[Sea Ray]

Tennessee's QB Josh Dobbs is an Aeropace Engineering major

[traderumor]

I think the issue here, for me at least, is that the NCAA is just lying with their marketing messages about "student athletes". Sure, kids who are swimming or golfing, or those who are at D4 (or whatever) schools have little prospects for becoming professional athletes. But the kids recruited into high profile D1 programs are brought on board specifically because they are gifted and talented athletes (even though most of them have little hope of making it into the professional ranks). To lump all the athletes together without acknowledging the obvious differences between those who are recruited to become part of the huge financial machine of major college sports and those who are just college students who happen to play a sport pretty well, is disingenuous.Yet, that is exactly what they do through their public messaging and their commercials. Am I really supposed to believe the field hockey player and the Heisman candidate are having the same college experience or are even there for the same reasons?



See:

Football Major, Basketball Minor? (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/08/education/edlife/football-major-basketball-minor.html)


Tennessee's QB Josh Dobbs is an Aeropace Engineering major

Sun Deck, I think you have made a caricature of student athletes as the typical football player is dumb jock NFL prospect while the field hockey player is a student first who plays field hockey for the love of the game and will be someone's boss someday, or find the cure for cancer. I could stereotype and say the field hockey player doesn't even need a scholarship because the fact that he plays field hockey shows that he came from a privileged, rich kid background who is there having fun and playing a sport and driving a brand new sportscar around campus that his daddy bought him. Meanwhile, the football player can only attend college because of his athletic scholarship and is a potential first generation college graduate from a rough neighborhood and has an opportunity to change his family tree for the better. Then there is the student attending his football games who gets to work for the field hockey player and struggle to pay off his $40K student loan with his entry level job in a small business.

Sea Ray, Craig Krenzel was doing very well in a premed program while a QB at Ohio State. So I guess we can say sometimes QBs in Div 1 power conferences are able to have difficult majors. That is trivial and a bad argument say the Freshman taking Logic 101 at both universities. Of course, no football players are in that course, per Sun Deck ;)

[Dom Heffner]

A lot of times these athletes know what they are doing is wrong. Whether its taking money or putting their genitals on someones face! These parents arent totally blameless either. Plenty of blame to go around...parents, athletes, and the schools.

If people running the program use the power of the program to molest children, the program gets the death penalty.

Sorry.

[traderumor]

Fresh out of college, I had this arrogant supervisor, who used to refer to my alma mater derogatorily as the "Diploma Factory on High Street." He was an Ohio U. grad. Since then, it has always provided me perspective when folks start discussing anything to do with college, whether it be academic or athletic. I'm not sure there are any more biased conversations in our culture.

[SunDeck]

Sun Deck, I think you have made a caricature of student athletes as the typical football player is dumb jock NFL prospect while the field hockey player is a student first who plays field hockey for the love of the game and will be someone's boss someday, or find the cure for cancer. I could stereotype and say the field hockey player doesn't even need a scholarship because the fact that he plays field hockey shows that he came from a privileged, rich kid background who is there having fun and playing a sport and driving a brand new sportscar around campus that his daddy bought him. Meanwhile, the football player can only attend college because of his athletic scholarship and is a potential first generation college graduate from a rough neighborhood and has an opportunity to change his family tree for the better. Then there is the student attending his football games who gets to work for the field hockey player and struggle to pay off his $40K student loan with his entry level job in a small business.

Sea Ray, Craig Krenzel was doing very well in a premed program while a QB at Ohio State. So I guess we can say sometimes QBs in Div 1 power conferences are able to have difficult majors. That is trivial and a bad argument say the Freshman taking Logic 101 at both universities. Of course, no football players are in that course, per Sun Deck ;)

You've mischaracterized what I said. I didn't say ALL div 1 football players are in puff majors; the leap to the stereotype is your doing. Rather, my point is that major college athletics value revenue and the prestige that comes with being a leading football or basketball program over the educational mission they are supposed to pursue. Sure, there are alway smart football players and dumb field hockey players, but I'm not commenting on them at all. It's the programs they participate in that are the problem.

[traderumor]

You stereotype that the non revenue sport is the pure student athlete while the great football player is only there for football glory and positioning to play at the next level. That is what you said. It begs the question whether that is somehow a corrupt goal for a young person as you clearly consider it an unworthy aspiration for a kid. All I hear is resentment for the popularity of mens football and basketball.


You've mischaracterized what I said. I didn't say ALL div 1 football players are in puff majors; the leap to the stereotype is your doing. Rather, my point is that major college athletics value revenue and the prestige that comes with being a leading football or basketball program over the educational mission they are supposed to pursue. Sure, there are alway smart football players and dumb field hockey players, but I'm not commenting on them at all. It's the programs they participate in that are the problem.

[dubc47834]

If people running the program use the power of the program to molest children, the program gets the death penalty.

Sorry.

I agree with this comment, I think most probly would, but what does it have to do with my comment?

[SunDeck]

You stereotype that the non revenue sport is the pure student athlete while the great football player is only there for football glory and positioning to play at the next level. That is what you said. It begs the question whether that is somehow a corrupt goal for a young person as you clearly consider it an unworthy aspiration for a kid. All I hear is resentment for the popularity of mens football and basketball.

You're making things up, reading into what is written to a remarkable degree. I don't resent those sports one bit, yet somehow you believe that's what I've written. That's fine, though. I've been here long enough to know its your thing.

[traderumor]

You're making things up, reading into what is written to a remarkable degree. I don't resent those sports one bit, yet somehow you believe that's what I've written. That's fine, though. I've been here long enough to know its your thing.
I'm just honored to have a thing. Thats very kind of you.

[Assembly Hall]

I agree with this comment, I think most probly would, but what does it have to do with my comment?

Dom is just hung up on the Penn St. fiasco.

[Chip R]

Here are some quotes from the press conference UT had with 16 of their coaches.

http://espn.go.com/espnw/voices/article/14832662/tennessee-coaches-press-conference-leaves-some-sounding-tone-deaf

[Assembly Hall]

Here are some quotes from the press conference UT had with 16 of their coaches.

http://espn.go.com/espnw/voices/article/14832662/tennessee-coaches-press-conference-leaves-some-sounding-tone-deaf

As an IU fan, I hung my head in shame a few years back during what we called "Sampsongate". As a UT fan, I can do nothing but hang my head in shame...I am going to dub this "Volgate" and I wish it was just a toothpaste.

[dabvu2498]

Here are some quotes from the press conference UT had with 16 of their coaches.

http://espn.go.com/espnw/voices/article/14832662/tennessee-coaches-press-conference-leaves-some-sounding-tone-deaf

Who thought that was a good idea?

PS: Can we pick a shade of orange, please?

[RiverRat13]

http://www.tennessean.com/story/sports/college/vols/2016/02/24/lawsuit-tennessee-coach-butch-jones-called-player-traitor/80851232/

[BuckeyeRed27]

http://www.tennessean.com/story/sports/college/vols/2016/02/24/lawsuit-tennessee-coach-butch-jones-called-player-traitor/80851232/

Wow. Odds Butch Jones is still coaching football in September?

[paintmered]

Wow. Odds Butch Jones is still coaching football in September?

He'll have to find another letter to represent.

[Sea Ray]

Wow. Odds Butch Jones is still coaching football in September?

Well the guy who would be the one to fire him has come out and pledged his support for BJ so if he is fired then another shoe would have to drop. Of course Gordon Gee also supported Tressel in the early stages of that debacle so we'll just have to wait and see. Wake me up when football season starts

[bucksfan2]

Kinda ironic that Tennessee's best basketball coach, ever, was fired for having impermissible barbecues. Butch Jones pretty much called a football player a rat who was trying to help a rape victim. Oh college sports.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Well the guy who would be the one to fire him has come out and pledged his support for BJ so if he is fired then another shoe would have to drop. Of course Gordon Gee also supported Tressel in the early stages of that debacle so we'll just have to wait and see. Wake me up when football season starts

Did he do that before or after this report?

[Sea Ray]

Did he do that before or after this report?

He pledged his support just yesterday:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/feb/25/dave-hart-tennessee-ad-football-coach-sexual-assault-claims

[RedTeamGo!]

Well the guy who would be the one to fire him has come out and pledged his support for BJ so if he is fired then another shoe would have to drop. Of course Gordon Gee also supported Tressel in the early stages of that debacle so we'll just have to wait and see. Wake me up when football season starts

Tressell covered up players selling trophies and rings for money to pay for tattoos.

Earlier you tried to deflect to Cam Newton at Auburn.

What is going on at Tennessee is a completely different animal. We are talking about covering up rape of young women to protect a football program.

[BuckeyeRed27]

He pledged his support just yesterday:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/feb/25/dave-hart-tennessee-ad-football-coach-sexual-assault-claims

Interesting. Not sure I'd tie myself to that at this point. Seems like a good time for the "we are collecting all the facts" speech.

Jones can maybe say he just didn't know all the details about the situation the first time he talked to Bowles. It doesn't look good that the kid still transferred and the players were indicted though since the culture is one of the key things in question here.

[Chip R]

Well the guy who would be the one to fire him has come out and pledged his support for BJ so if he is fired then another shoe would have to drop. Of course Gordon Gee also supported Tressel in the early stages of that debacle so we'll just have to wait and see. Wake me up when football season starts

The difference is that the former was the president of the university and the latter is just the athletic director. If Hart gets enough pressure from above, Jones - and possibly Hart - may have to go.


Tressell covered up players selling trophies and rings for money to pay for tattoos.

Earlier you tried to deflect to Cam Newton at Auburn.

What is going on at Tennessee is a completely different animal. We are talking about covering up rape of young women to protect a football program.

It's different but it's not because in those cases - and others - it's the university not wanting to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. The individual scandals may be different but the one thing they have in common is protecting the program(s).

[dabvu2498]

Problem with getting a vote of confidence from Dave Hart is that he should be thrown out on his butt every bit as much as Jones.

http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/investigations/2016/02/27/former-tennessee-official-now-taking-beloved-university/80616272/

[Assembly Hall]

Problem with getting a vote of confidence from Dave Hart is that he should be thrown out on his butt every bit as much as Jones.

http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/investigations/2016/02/27/former-tennessee-official-now-taking-beloved-university/80616272/

Just a sad state of affairs. Thanks for putting that link up there dab, even though it shames me even further.

[Dom Heffner]

Dom is just hung up on the Penn St. fiasco.

Lol...

[Assembly Hall]

Lol...

LOL...right back

[dubc47834]

LOL...right back

Ohhhhhh snap...you just hit him with the all caps LOL!!!

[cumberlandreds]

Ohhhhhh snap...you just hit him with the all caps LOL!!!

That's equal to the triple dog dare too!

[Sea Ray]

Wow. Odds Butch Jones is still coaching football in September?

Former UT captain says that Drae Bowles story is bunk and that he was ticked that coach Jones wasn't giving him more playing time. Bowles also is changing his story as to whether Maggitt assaulted him.



Former UT Captain @MarlonTankWalls says Drae Bowles' story isn't true & "playing time" may have been a motivation

http://fanbuzz.rare.us/story/former-vols-captain-calls-bowles-a-liar-defends-butch-jones/



Former Tennessee linebacker Curt Maggitt's attorney Jeff Hagood issued a statement to the News Sentinel on Saturday denying former wide receiver Drae Bowles' allegation that Maggitt punched him in the face in November 2014.

"If in fact, Mr. Bowles has sworn that my client, Curt Maggitt punched him at any time," Hagood said in a text message, "that simply is a false statement."

http://www.knoxnews.com/sports/vols/football/curt-maggitts-attorney-denies-drae-bowles-allegation-in-statement-2cc8466c-9f0a-0688-e053-0100007fab-370396641.html


Drae Bowles, who claims he was assaulted by former players Curt Maggitt and Michael Williams and says Butch Jones called him a “traitor to the team” after helping a woman who said she was raped by two football players, told a much different account of the alleged incident to the Knoxville News Sentinel last February.
http://247sports.com/Bolt/Drae-Bowles-quotes-contradict-sworn-affidavit-in-Tennessee-saga-43916596

Sure looks like a he said/she said. Money will change hands with a gag order and we'll never know the truth

[The Operator]

Gee, the former captain of the team this all happened on says the allegations are crap? Shocking.


Sea Ray, it seems like you're far more concerned with protecting the program than finding out the truth and helping these women find justice if, in fact, they were wronged.


Although - these women were out past 10pm so they probably got what they deserved, at least according to the UT Women's BBall coach.

[The Operator]

Sure looks like a he said/she said. Money will change hands with a gag order and we'll never know the truthIf so, maybe one of them will screw up and write a book slamming the victims like Peyton Manning did and have to pay out a big settlement. :D

[Assembly Hall]

Where there is smoke there is fire. Pretty dang simple.

[Sea Ray]

Gee, the former captain of the team this all happened on says the allegations are crap? Shocking.


Sea Ray, it seems like you're far more concerned with protecting the program than finding out the truth and helping these women find justice if, in fact, they were wronged.


Although - these women were out past 10pm so they probably got what they deserved, at least according to the UT Women's BBall coach.

I'm interested in both sides of the story and UT's side has not been told in this thread. Do you understand that?

[The Operator]

I'm interested in both sides of the story and UT's side has not been told in this thread. Do you understand that?Actually it just seems like you're trying to shoot very possible little hole into it you can and then say "Move along, nothing to see here!".

[Sea Ray]

Actually it just seems like you're trying to shoot very possible little hole into it you can and then say "Move along, nothing to see here!".

I apologize if that's how it's come across. I didn't see where the University's side of this story has been posted. With the idea of balance I felt it necessary to post this side of the story.

I wasn't there. I have no idea if there was "anything to see here". All we can do is make a judgment based on the facts as they come out. We can't do that unless all of them are brought out

[The Operator]

I apologize if that's how it's come across. I didn't see where the University's side of this story has been posted. With the idea of balance I felt it necessary to post this side of the story.

I wasn't there. I have no idea if there was "anything to see here". All we can do is make a judgment based on the facts as they come out. We can't do that unless all of them are brought outAnd perhaps I'm even being over-sensitive on the matter, so if I am I apologize.

This particular topic just gets me fired up, not even specifically in regard to UT but just athletes in general who do whatever the hell they want to whoever they want. I actually hope this isn't true, but it just seems pretty damning - at least from what I've read.

Certain athletes I knew were allowed to get away with murder in High School, I can only imagine how much worse it gets the more people tell them they're untouchable and above the rules.

[Sea Ray]

And perhaps I'm even being over-sensitive on the matter, so if I am I apologize.

This particular topic just gets me fired up, not even specifically in regard to UT but just athletes in general who do whatever the hell they want to whoever they want. I actually hope this isn't true, but it just seems pretty damning - at least from what I've read.

Certain athletes I knew were allowed to get away with murder in High School, I can only imagine how much worse it gets the more people tell them they're untouchable and above the rules.

I respect where you're coming from but I'll put it this way: If you give that speech during jury selection you wouldn't be asked to serve

[The Operator]

I respect where you're coming from but I'll put it this way: If you give that speech during jury selection you wouldn't be asked to serveWhich would be just fine by me. :D

[dabvu2498]

The UTennessean did an interesting profile on Drae Bowles. http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/crime/2016/03/05/hero-tennessee-rape-case-always-did-right-thing-friends-say/81212236/

I call them the UTennessean because their coverage is generally very pro-UT. This case has been an enormous exception.

[Assembly Hall]

Certain athletes I knew were allowed to get away with murder in High School, I can only imagine how much worse it gets the more people tell them they're untouchable and above the rules.

Ding, Ding, Ding. We have a winner! It doesnt start in college it starts in high school and in some cases even junior high.

I mean heck these kids today have press conferences to announce their college choices.

[bucksfan2]

Archie and Peyton went on a crusade to ruin this girls life. To me that is enough to think good ol Peyton is lying about just mooning a teammate.

But gee golly why would someone say something so bad about the greatest QB since Archie Manning to walk the face of this earth? Why would Peyton Manning have to do something like that to a trainer, he had a team of girls hanging on his every word?

The sooner the Manning family exits the national spotlight, the happier I will be.

[Sea Ray]

The UTennessean did an interesting profile on Drae Bowles. http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/crime/2016/03/05/hero-tennessee-rape-case-always-did-right-thing-friends-say/81212236/

I call them the UTennessean because their coverage is generally very pro-UT. This case has been an enormous exception.

UT fans think the Tennessean is very much against them

[dabvu2498]

UT fans think the Tennessean is very much against them

I will say that they're leading the charge on this particular issue, but their previous coverage has been tinted orange.

[dubc47834]

Archie and Peyton went on a crusade to ruin this girls life. To me that is enough to think good ol Peyton is lying about just mooning a teammate.

But gee golly why would someone say something so bad about the greatest QB since Archie Manning to walk the face of this earth? Why would Peyton Manning have to do something like that to a trainer, he had a team of girls hanging on his every word?

The sooner the Manning family exits the national spotlight, the happier I will be.

Really, you're up there on your high horse!!! None of us have any clue what happened that day, after the 2003 pay off both parties have been quiet. I have my opinion on what's going on here but I will keep them to myself!

[Assembly Hall]

Archie and Peyton went on a crusade to ruin this girls life. To me that is enough to think good ol Peyton is lying about just mooning a teammate.

But gee golly why would someone say something so bad about the greatest QB since Archie Manning to walk the face of this earth? Why would Peyton Manning have to do something like that to a trainer, he had a team of girls hanging on his every word?

The sooner the Manning family exits the national spotlight, the happier I will be.

Really? C'mon man. It was like 21 years ago. I fail to see the relevance other than the media will grab at every last straw.

[bucksfan2]

Really? C'mon man. It was like 21 years ago. I fail to see the relevance other than the media will grab at every last straw.

That is the Manning defense. It works pretty good doesn't it, it was 21 years ago, he was an 18 year old kid. Here is what gets me, there was a female who had a pretty good job, probably a dream job in her field. Working as a trainer in a top 10 college football program is almost as high as you can get being an athletic trainer. All of a sudden the entitled kid does something wrong, his powerful father settles outside of court but ruins your dream job. Then all of a sudden the father and entitled kid write a book smearing your name again.

Look its not a big deal unless you are Jamie Naughright, a friend of hers, a relative, or someone who cares to see that a female doing her job can have her career ruined by someone else in power. Peyton went on to be a great QB, made millions, won Super Bowls, set himself up for a career outside of football, oh and ruined a female's life because she was doing her job. As a father of two daughters, that irritates me. It irritates me that we can say its just boys being boys, and not realize that it can effect others.

[redhawkfish]

"Boys will be boys' is my least favorite excuse made for immoral behavior!

[Assembly Hall]

That is the Manning defense. It works pretty good doesn't it, it was 21 years ago, he was an 18 year old kid. Here is what gets me, there was a female who had a pretty good job, probably a dream job in her field. Working as a trainer in a top 10 college football program is almost as high as you can get being an athletic trainer. All of a sudden the entitled kid does something wrong, his powerful father settles outside of court but ruins your dream job. Then all of a sudden the father and entitled kid write a book smearing your name again.

Look its not a big deal unless you are Jamie Naughright, a friend of hers, a relative, or someone who cares to see that a female doing her job can have her career ruined by someone else in power. Peyton went on to be a great QB, made millions, won Super Bowls, set himself up for a career outside of football, oh and ruined a female's life because she was doing her job. As a father of two daughters, that irritates me. It irritates me that we can say its just boys being boys, and not realize that it can effect others.

I am in no way defending Peyton. But let's face it......the woman settled for money. No court of law just cash. Something can be said for that. I wouldnt want my daughter to do that if it would have happened to her.

[Chip R]

I am in no way defending Peyton. But let's face it......the woman settled for money. No court of law just cash. Something can be said for that. I wouldnt want my daughter to do that if it would have happened to her.

As I said earlier, Manning and his people could hire the best lawyers and basically bankrupt her. Also, do you really think a Tennessee jury would find Manning guilty of something like that?

[Assembly Hall]

As I said earlier, Manning and his people could hire the best lawyers and basically bankrupt her. Also, do you really think a Tennessee jury would find Manning guilty of something like that?

Valid points Chip.....but somewhere the line needs to be drawn. IMO, if the incident did indeed happen, moral standards should have been the top priority. This whole thing with her reminds me of the Kobe Bryant fiasco.

[bucksfan2]

Valid points Chip.....but somewhere the line needs to be drawn. IMO, if the incident did indeed happen, moral standards should have been the top priority. This whole thing with her reminds me of the Kobe Bryant fiasco.

See I find it different than the Kobe situation. The entire Kobe situation wasn't denying what happened, it was a he said she said consensual issue.

I guess my biggest with this is at the time it appeared as if Archie and Peyton stuck behind the "boys will be boys" mantra and settled outside of court. Now I may not be a lawyer or the smartest guy in the room, but if you moon another teammate in a locker room, you aren't going to settle outside of court. Then the Mannings went and wrote a book dragging this lady through the mud again. They broke the confidentiality agreement and settled another time.

Now Peyton is playing the whole, it was 21 years ago, are you really going to bring that up. To Peyton it is old news, he went on to have a great career, won two Super Bowls, will be a first ballot HOF, has a net worth around $200M, and I could continue to go on. But what happened 20 some years ago was wrong, it was wrong enough to warrant a cash settlement. It was wrong enough that it was a microcosm of what was happening at UT. We as a sports community turned a blind eye to what was happening 20 years ago in sport, in locker rooms across all of sport. It was wrong at the time and it is wrong now. While the athletes involved suffered very little blow back, but how many careers did they end or lives did they effect?

[REDREAD]

If all this is true, then I think Tennessee's athletics programs that supported this should get the "death penalty". Or at least it should be considered. This is on par with Penn State's issues!

Yes, I agree. If true, I hope the NCAA actually does something other than fines and a few years of postseason bans.
I think Penn State got 4 years of postseason bans. Again, IIRC, I think NSCU basketball got 3 years of no postseason because it's players sold shoes and didn't go to class.
How that is considered a comparable offense is beyond me, although NCSU was back in the 90's when there was less money and the NCAA was probably more honorable.

Time to start handing out the death penalty for programs that openly support/overlook violence and rape. Again, this is all contingent of if what is claimed is true. I have no opinion whether they are guilty or not. Until a few big programs get killed, no university is going to take this seriously.

[REDREAD]

I didn't think Penn State should be punished by the NCAA and I don't think Tennessee should either. Why punish innocent athletes for things that will be handled appropriately by a legal system? Honestly our society has a sense of moral superiority when it comes to rival sports programs, and I don't think that has a place in dealing with injustice.


That's a good point.
In Penn State's case, I would give the football program the death penalty.
Any student athletes would have the option to either stay at Penn State and get a free education or they could transfer to any other school willing to take them on their team without penalty. That way, the school is punished, not the innocent athletes.

[Sea Ray]

I am in no way defending Peyton. But let's face it......the woman settled for money. No court of law just cash. Something can be said for that. I wouldnt want my daughter to do that if it would have happened to her.

I'd say she made out just fine. What woman wouldn't deal with an athlete "exposing" himself to her for a 6 figure payday?

[The Operator]

I'd say she made out just fine. What woman wouldn't deal with an athlete "exposing" himself to her for a 6 figure payday?He didn't just expose himself to her, he rubbed his genitalia across her head. Oh, and then he proceeded to slander her and ruin her career.


But yep, I'd say she's sitting reaaalllyy pretty.

[dabvu2498]

I'd say she made out just fine. What woman wouldn't deal with an athlete "exposing" himself to her for a 6 figure payday?

Uhhhh

[RedsBaron]

He didn't just expose himself to her, he rubbed his genitalia across her head. Oh, and then he proceeded to slander her and ruin her career.


But yep, I'd say she's sitting reaaalllyy pretty.
I did not realize that you were an eye witness to the alleged incident. This is important news. From all of the accounts I have read there were very few individuals who claimed to have actually witnessed what occurred, but in your post you have stated as facts what occurred.

[RedsBaron]

Now I may not be a lawyer or the smartest guy in the room, but if you moon another teammate in a locker room, you aren't going to settle outside of court.

I am certainly not the smartest guy in the room either, but I have been a trial lawyer for nearly 37 years and I know that people settle cases all of the time, for a variety of reasons, without necessarily being guilty of the accusations.

[Assembly Hall]

I am certainly not the smartest guy in the room either, but I have been a trial lawyer for nearly 37 years and I know that people settle cases all of the time, for a variety of reasons, without necessarily being guilty of the accusations.

Rich people have expensive lawyers?

[Sea Ray]

He didn't just expose himself to her, he rubbed his genitalia across her head. Oh, and then he proceeded to slander her and ruin her career.


But yep, I'd say she's sitting reaaalllyy pretty.

You say that like it's a fact. Even if it is, I bet lots of women would endure that split second experience for a 6 figure payday

[dabvu2498]

You say that like it's a fact. Even if it is, I bet lots of women would endure that split second experience for a 6 figure payday

1. Would you?

2. Does that make it ok?

[Sea Ray]

1. Would you?

2. Does that make it ok?

I'm not going so far as to say it's OK...if it happened which we still don't know. But it's been litigated and it's in the past. What more are you trying to get out of this? Move on

[Assembly Hall]

I'm not going so far as to say it's OK...if it happened which we still don't know. But it's been litigated and it's in the past. What more are you trying to get out of this? Move on

Somethings just never die. Maybe Oliver Stone should do a movie about the incident?

[The Operator]

His own teammate who he tried to say he "mooned" backed up Dr. Naughright's story and went so far as to send Peyton a letter telling him he should man up and admit what he did.

And later on, many former UT athletes went under oath and testified that accusations Peyton levied against her were false.



And sorry Sea Ray, the "she got paid" defense doesn't work. Six figures in a settlement isn't enough to make up for a career and reputation being destroyed.

[Sea Ray]

His own teammate who he tried to say he "mooned" backed up Dr. Naughright's story and went so far as to send Peyton a letter telling him he should man up and admit what he did.

And later on, many former UT athletes went under oath and testified that accusations Peyton levied against her were false.



And sorry Sea Ray, the "she got paid" defense doesn't work. Six figures in a settlement isn't enough to make up for a career and reputation being destroyed.

OK, so what do you think should happen now? What do you want Peyton to do? My point is that Peyton has paid up. It's time to move on

[The Operator]

OK, so what do you think should happen now? What do you want Peyton to do? My point is that Peyton has paid up. It's time to move on Frankly I hope this follows him the rest of his life. He sexually assaulted her and then destroyed her career because she didn't take it like a good little average person should have.

He's a schmuck and he doesn't deserve this "golly gee whiz" Ned Flanders image that he has cultivated.

[Sea Ray]

But in the second case, Naughright's characterization of the incident changed. She said Manning maneuvered his naked rectum and genitalia directly onto her head.

If true, why didn't she describe the incident that way in her initial complaints against UT?



Saxon obviously didn't buy Manning's "mooning" story. But he didn't write anything to support Naughright's more graphic account, either.

http://www.knoxnews.com/sports/vols/columnists/john-adams/john-adams-shedding-light-on-jamie-naughright-2c37f52f-a85a-25cd-e053-0100007f53bd-369543051.html

It's too late to re-litigate this case. We'll never know for sure what happened but I'm posting above so that we don't get careless and state accusations as facts.

[Sea Ray]

Frankly I hope this follows him the rest of his life. He sexually assaulted her and then destroyed her career because she didn't take it like a good little average person should have.

He's a schmuck and he doesn't deserve this "golly gee whiz" Ned Flanders image that he has cultivated.

So you think it's your duty to bring it up every now and then so we don't forget? How 'bout showing some forgiveness? How 'bout cutting him some slack for a possible stupid thing he did when he was a kid.

Personally I think his positive accomplishments far outweigh his negatives.

I'm sure it bothers you that this is not mentioned on his Wiki page and that he has not lost any endorsements over this. I think it's great. It shows that people see that we all have flaws but we're willing to see the positive in everyone.

[bucksfan2]

So you think it's your duty to bring it up every now and then so we don't forget? How 'bout showing some forgiveness? How 'bout cutting him some slack for a possible stupid thing he did when he was a kid.

Personally I think his positive accomplishments far outweigh his negatives.

I'm sure it bothers you that this is not mentioned on his Wiki page and that he has not lost any endorsements over this. I think it's great. It shows that people see that we all have flaws but we're willing to see the positive in everyone.

The problem with showing some forgiveness or cutting some slack, is Peyton never apologized. He never showed any act of contrition, he never showed any admission of guilt. He ruined this girls career going forward, a pretty lucrative career if she was a trainer at UT during their glory days.

I am all for forgiveness, and acknowledging that you do stupid things when you are young. But my entire problem with this is it is obvious that Peyton did something wrong, and then instead of apologizing he and papa bear went on a crusade to ruin this girls career. So not only she is a victim of sexual harassmentment or sexual assault, but she had the audacity report it, and had her career destroyed.

[Sea Ray]

The problem with showing some forgiveness or cutting some slack, is Peyton never apologized. He never showed any act of contrition, he never showed any admission of guilt. He ruined this girls career going forward, a pretty lucrative career if she was a trainer at UT during their glory days.

I am all for forgiveness, and acknowledging that you do stupid things when you are young. But my entire problem with this is it is obvious that Peyton did something wrong, and then instead of apologizing he and papa bear went on a crusade to ruin this girls career. So not only she is a victim of sexual harassmentment or sexual assault, but she had the audacity report it, and had her career destroyed.

It's not a given that Peyton ruined her career. She has a history of lawsuits. I can see why people would be wary of hiring her


In the current lawsuit, Naughright seeks compensatory and punitive damages for 13 causes of action, including assault and battery, fraud, breach of fiduciary duty, misrepresentation and breach of contract. Naughright is represented by Alan Futerfas of Manhattan and Dennis Durkin of Roseland, N.J.

http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/11/12/31788.htm

[Assembly Hall]

I have always maintained there is more to this story than just the anti-Peyton side.

[RedsBaron]

Rich people have expensive lawyers?
Rich people and so do poor people, depending upon the case.
Unlike apparently some posters here, I have no idea what did or did not happen. I believe it is plausible that a "golden boy" college athlete could act horribly and then, aided by his celebrity father, lie about it and quietly "pay off" the victim. However I believe it is also plausible that a golden boy athlete could be the victim of a baseless claim and that, discretion being the better part of valor, decide to pay something to make it "go away."
I do not think I am any longer naïve about athletes in general or celebrities period. We may cheer for them, watch their movies, buy their recordings, whatever--very few if any of us know them.
My boyhood idol, voted by his peers in a 1970 Sport magazine poll as "baseball's greatest competitor--surely he wouldn't bet on the game? He did, and then lied about it for more than a decade.
20 years ago I remarked that if I was a college age football player I would probably want to play at Penn State, where Joe Paterno did everything the right way, free of corruption.
I enjoyed O.J. Simpson's commercials and later his movies.
I was impressed by Rafael Palmiero wagging his finger in the face of Senators and denying that he ever had or would use PEDs.
Bill Cosby seemed to be a genial and all around good guy.
However, I also recall that Duke lacrosse players were falsely accused of rape.
I recall that last year a fraternity at the University of Virginia was falsely accused of horrible misdeeds in Rolling Stone.
I recall Tawana Brawley.
I can recall a number of high profile recent cases from Ferguson, MO to Florida to New York, which I do not want to get into for fear of violating board rules since they sometimes had a political component, but I think it is fair to say that those cases sometimes did not appear quite as clear cut after more facts came out as they may have initially appeared.
I can also recall one of my own sons. It was a relatively mild case of alleged misconduct, one in which he was wrongly accused, but I know he still carries emotional scars from that incident from years ago.
I do know that I do not like the rush to judgment, let's form a lynch mob mentality.

[Assembly Hall]

^^^That was one of the best posts I have ever read........hats off to you my friend.

[dabvu2498]

Two thoughts:

1. Even if you believe Manning's story lock, stock, and barrel, he still put this trainer in an uncomfortable situation. As far as I know he's not been remorseful, apologetic, or contrite, at all, about having done that. Which leads to...

2. I could be a bit more sympathetic if this had all just died in 1996. It didn't. And it's not the trainer's fault that it didn't.

So yes, even if we minimize the initial incident to the bare minimum facts that both sides can agree on, Manning still acted poorly.

[Assembly Hall]

Two thoughts:

1. Even if you believe Manning's story lock, stock, and barrel, he still put this trainer in an uncomfortable situation. As far as I know he's not been remorseful, apologetic, or contrite, at all, about having done that. Which leads to...

2. I could be a bit more sympathetic if this had all just died in 1996. It didn't. And it's not the trainer's fault that it didn't.

So yes, even if we minimize the initial incident to the bare minimum facts that both sides can agree on, Manning still acted poorly.

How did you act when you were 19? Just asking.

[dabvu2498]

How did you act when you were 19? Just asking.

I did stupid stuff. But I don't think I put anyone within inches of my bare ass. And if I had, and that made them uncomfortable, I would have apologized.

And certainly by the time I was 25, I knew slander was a bad thing.

[RedTeamGo!]

How did you act when you were 19? Just asking.

I didn't pin down women and shove my anus and testicles in their face.

Is that a common thing to do? I mostly just started awkward conversation.

[Assembly Hall]

I did stupid stuff. But I don't think I put anyone within inches of my bare ass. And if I had, and that made them uncomfortable, I would have apologized.

And certainly by the time I was 25, I knew slander was a bad thing.

Understood. My point being that at that age we all acted irrational. Sometimes it takes years for "normal" people to admit that they did wrong. I dunno, Peyton is a different case. He can always open the check book........I never had that.

[Sea Ray]

Two thoughts:

1. Even if you believe Manning's story lock, stock, and barrel, he still put this trainer in an uncomfortable situation. As far as I know he's not been remorseful, apologetic, or contrite, at all, about having done that. Which leads to...

2. I could be a bit more sympathetic if this had all just died in 1996. It didn't. And it's not the trainer's fault that it didn't.

So yes, even if we minimize the initial incident to the bare minimum facts that both sides can agree on, Manning still acted poorly.

If he acted poorly it was only for a second or two. I'm willing to give him a pass for that especially considering his age at the time. I don't think he should be crucified a generation later. It did not turn into a pattern for him. He deserves the accolades and endorsements he's getting now

[dubc47834]

I didn't pin down women and shove my anus and testicles in their face.

Is that a common thing to do? I mostly just started awkward conversation.

Google atomic sit-up...it was an initiation for EVERY Freshman on my High School baseball team! This type of thing happens way more than people think. Not saying it's right, but it happens often!

[Eric from NC]

Understood. My point being that at that age we all acted irrational. Sometimes it takes years for "normal" people to admit that they did wrong. I dunno, Peyton is a different case. He can always open the check book........I never had that.

It does make hard for me to buy Manning's story since he has never shown any remorse. Plenty of people in the public eye have stated they did dumb stuff in college but are glad the administrators and the campus police worked with them so they never had a public record on dumb actions. If he said I did dumb stuff in college but learned that you need respect people when they are there to get their job done, I actually might believe this mooning story his family has put out for 20 years.

[The Operator]

If this was really just a "mooning", why would Peyton & Archie felt so vindictive as to come out and slander her in their book? The story had died at that point, she had to leave UT and he was a star in the NFL.

But he had so much angst toward her that they just had to include her in the book (illegally breaking an NDA in the process) and fabricate stories about him being nice and doing a favor for her by giving fellow students rides (which other students said was a lie, under oath), and also go so far as to tell the ghostwriter that she was sleeping with black student athletes (going out of their way to say "black", as if that's what *really* made it wrong), and saying that he didn't like her because she had a "vulgar mouth"?

Manning's own former teammates and friends went under oath and testified against him and exposed the BS stories from the book as the lies they were. The teammate who he supposedly "mooned" wrote him a letter telling him he should "come clean".


It just reeks of an entitled rich brat not being able to handle not being able to treat others however he wants and having them stand up to him. I'm sure Peyton Manning was treated like a god from Pee Wee football onward and the idea of a measly trainer getting the best of him wasn't going to fly. Better trash her in a book to settle the score!

[dubc47834]

If this was really just a "mooning", why would Peyton & Archie felt so vindictive as to come out and slander her in their book? The story had died at that point, she had to leave UT and he was a star in the NFL.

But he had so much angst toward her that they just had to include her in the book (illegally breaking an NDA in the process) and fabricate stories about him being nice and doing a favor for her by giving fellow students rides (which other students said was a lie, under oath), and also go so far as to tell the ghostwriter that she was sleeping with black student athletes (going out of their way to say "black", as if that's what *really* made it wrong), and saying that he didn't like her because she had a "vulgar mouth"?

Manning's own former teammates and friends went under oath and testified against him and exposed the BS stories from the book as the lies they were. The teammate who he supposedly "mooned" wrote him a letter telling him he should "come clean".


It just reeks of an entitled rich brat not being able to handle not being able to treat others however he wants and having them stand up to him. I'm sure Peyton Manning was treated like a god from Pee Wee football onward and the idea of a measly trainer getting the best of him wasn't going to fly. Better trash her in a book to settle the score!

You act like Manning has acted like an entitled rich brat his whole life. Peyton has done many many great things in his career to help others and payed things forward. Sure, this isn't a good look if it's true, but what if it's not. My next statement isn't trying to be a troll or instigate trouble, but people are treating Peyton like he is a horrible person, a criminal. But then give the handful of real criminals on their favorite team a pass. It's just confusing. The dude has so many great things for the Indy community they named a friggin children's hospital after him!!!

[The Operator]

You act like Manning has acted like an entitled rich brat his whole life. Peyton has done many many great things in his career to help others and payed things forward. Sure, this isn't a good look if it's true, but what if it's not. My next statement isn't trying to be a troll or instigate trouble, but people are treating Peyton like he is a horrible person, a criminal. But then give the handful of real criminals on their favorite team a pass. It's just confusing. The dude has so many great things for the Indy community they named a friggin children's hospital after him!!!Having something named after you does not mean you're a perfect person, it mainly means you have a lot of money. Have you read at all about all the universities in this country that have buildings named after unabashed racists?

That's great if he's been charitable and given back to the community, seriously. But that doesn't excuse going out of his way to ruin a person's life who, at the very least - he acted inappropriately towards, and at worst sexually assaulted.

If anything, it makes it more egregious. He basically won the first battle. He went on to make millions in the NFL and she lost her dream job with her Alma Mater. But that wasn't enough, he used his considerable means to lie about her in his book which he *knew* would be read by a lot of people.


It's no wonder that some athletes do whatever the hell they want to anyone they want to. They know that no matter what, they'll still have an army of people lining up to defend them like a blood relative. There are still people in Cincinnati that will go out of their way to defend Pete Rose.

[dubc47834]

Having something named after you does not mean you're a perfect person, it mainly means you have a lot of money. Have you read at all about all the universities in this country that have buildings named after unabashed racists?

That's great if he's been charitable and given back to the community, seriously. But that doesn't excuse going out of his way to ruin a person's life who, at the very least - he acted inappropriately towards, and at worst sexually assaulted.

If anything, it makes it more egregious. He basically won the first battle. He went on to make millions in the NFL and she lost her dream job with her Alma Mater. But that wasn't enough, he used his considerable means to lie about her in his book which he *knew* would be read by a lot of people.


It's no wonder that some athletes do whatever the hell they want to anyone they want to. They know that no matter what, they'll still have an army of people lining up to defend them like a blood relative. There are still people in Cincinnati that will go out of their way to defend Pete Rose.

Redsbaron gave some excellent examples earlier on both sides of accusations. How has he ruined her life? There was the supposed initial incident and then the 2003 case where he talked in his book when he shouldn't have. From what I have seen, and I could be wrong, it's not like Peyton's people have been going after this woman. Even IF he did this, he obviously learned his lesson and went on to do great things. Most of us have done things we aren't proud of, most of us have done things prolly worse than this. It doesn't make us bad people, just made some bad choices. I know I have, but I have learned my lessons in life

[Assembly Hall]

I wonder what some of your stances were with "Slick Willy" and Miss Lewinsky?

[bucksfan2]

I wonder what some of your stances were with "Slick Willy" and Miss Lewinsky?

I am too young to really have understood the whole Clinton, Lewinsky saga from a mature standpoint. But isn't there a difference between an affair and sexual harassment?

I watched the Duke 30 for 30 last night which was fantastic. There was a comment that really struck me as important in all of these cases, the difference between illegal and immoral. If I were to have an affair with another adult I am doing nothing illegal. However, my wife may be upset. If I were to use my power as an authority figure to impose myself in a sexual manner on a subordinate not only would my wife be upset but the law may have something to say about it.

We can sit back and cast stones from glass houses at all kinds of immoral actions that we deem others to participate in. But when the immorality crosses the line and becomes illegal, I have a problem.

[redrum]

I wonder what some of your stances were with "Slick Willy" and Miss Lewinsky?

That depends on your definition of 'stances'.

[Assembly Hall]

I am too young to really have understood the whole Clinton, Lewinsky saga from a mature standpoint. But isn't there a difference between an affair and sexual harassment?

I watched the Duke 30 for 30 last night which was fantastic. There was a comment that really struck me as important in all of these cases, the difference between illegal and immoral. If I were to have an affair with another adult I am doing nothing illegal. However, my wife may be upset. If I were to use my power as an authority figure to impose myself in a sexual manner on a subordinate not only would my wife be upset but the law may have something to say about it.

We can sit back and cast stones from glass houses at all kinds of immoral actions that we deem others to participate in. But when the immorality crosses the line and becomes illegal, I have a problem.

Well I dont need a class on telling me what is legal aint always moral. I knew that a long time ago. But you touched on something in that post....using your power to influence sexual gratification from a sub-ordinate.

Impeachment proceedings were brought against Clinton and he was exonerated, but that didnt mean he wasnt guilty. He just had the power to wiggle out of it. Much like some here are saying about Peyton.

[Chip R]

Well I dont need a class on telling me what is legal aint always moral. I knew that a long time ago. But you touched on something in that post....using your power to influence sexual gratification from a sub-ordinate.

Impeachment proceedings were brought against Clinton and he was exonerated, but that didnt mean he wasnt guilty. He just had the power to wiggle out of it. Much like some here are saying about Peyton.

Clinton wasn't impeached because he had sex with an intern. He was impeached for lying about it under oath. As for their relationship, technically it could be called sexual harassment. But it seemed consensual and she may have come on to him instead of the other way around. But, much like Peyton, he could use his financial wherewithal to "beat the rap" or, in Peyton's case, settle. bucksfan2 referenced the Duke lacrosse fiasco. Those guys were very fortunate they were from well off families that could pay for a good defense instead of just settling or being found guilty. Of course if they weren't well off, they may not have been targeted in the first place.

[bucksfan2]

Clinton wasn't impeached because he had sex with an intern. He was impeached for lying about it under oath. As for their relationship, technically it could be called sexual harassment. But it seemed consensual and she may have come on to him instead of the other way around. But, much like Peyton, he could use his financial wherewithal to "beat the rap" or, in Peyton's case, settle. bucksfan2 referenced the Duke lacrosse fiasco. Those guys were very fortunate they were from well off families that could pay for a good defense instead of just settling or being found guilty. Of course if they weren't well off, they may not have been targeted in the first place.

I was thinking about this before I went to bed. In essence the Duke Lacrosse case fell apart because of the private DNA test. What was found out is the prosecution had evidence that would have helped the defense but they buried it in close to a thousand page DNA report. A defense lawyer took it upon himself to learn everything he could about DNA, bought a book, and then read through and understood the entire DNA report the prosecution dumped on the defense. The amount of billable hours and cost that his lawyer took upon himself would have been impressive. The lawyer actually noted that the person conducting the DNA experiment possibly could have contaminated the DNA yet no Lacrosse players DNA was found.

[Sea Ray]

Former UT captain says that Drae Bowles story is bunk and that he was ticked that coach Jones wasn't giving him more playing time. Bowles also is changing his story as to whether Maggitt assaulted him.






http://www.knoxnews.com/sports/vols/football/curt-maggitts-attorney-denies-drae-bowles-allegation-in-statement-2cc8466c-9f0a-0688-e053-0100007fab-370396641.html


http://247sports.com/Bolt/Drae-Bowles-quotes-contradict-sworn-affidavit-in-Tennessee-saga-43916596

Sure looks like a he said/she said. Money will change hands with a gag order and we'll never know the truth

I was dead on. A settlement is exactly what happened. This whole this was so predictable:

http://www.tennessean.com/story/sports/columnist/2016/07/05/john-adams-university-tennessee-defends-culture-payout/86735890/

[Sea Ray]

Actually it just seems like you're trying to shoot very possible little hole into it you can and then say "Move along, nothing to see here!".

You did not like what I said but I've been proven to be prophetic in predicting this case. It was a legal proceeding and it came down to money. Dollars changed hands and there's nothing more to it. That's all I was saying. Maybe you don't like it but that's the real world