2016 Summer of Soccer: Copa America Centenario and UEFA European Championship

[Yachtzee]

So who's gearing up for some International Soccer this month? We have the US and Colombia kicking of Copa America Centenario tonight and the Euros starting up next weekend. I'm looking forward to seeing how the USMNT rates against South American competition. I hope that I can do the same thing I did for World Cup 2014 and get streaming audio over my phone so that I can listen to the Euros while doing yard work on the weekends and then I plan to catch the Copa America games in the evening.

FYI, for Men In Blazers fans, they will be breaking down the Euros and Copa on ViceSports.com live at 5 pm ET.

[RedTeamGo!]

I would guess something along the lines of:

Columbia: 1,238
USMNT: 1

[MWM]

I'm much more excited about Euro than Copa. I think the USMNT is going to be totally outclassed. I doubt it will happen, but I'd like to see this as the last thing Klinnsman does as head coach. He gots to go.

[RedTeamGo!]

He gots to go.

Care to expand?

[MWM]

Care to expand?

I'm not going to get into a bullet by bullet treatise on the topic. I just don't think the US national soccer program has moved forward even a little under his watch. I think they've actually regressed in recent years, and he's done a really poor job of managing the players and their personalities. He's really done nothing worthy of maintaining the job, IMO.

[RedTeamGo!]

I'm not going to get into a bullet by bullet treatise on the topic. I just don't think the US national soccer program has moved forward even a little under his watch. I think they've actually regressed in recent years, and he's done a really poor job of managing the players and their personalities. He's really done nothing worthy of maintaining the job, IMO.

Fair enough.

I am torn. There are times where I completely agree with what you said above. There are other times where I see Christian Pulisic and wonder to myself "Would this kid be playing for Croatia if Bob Bradley or Bruce Arena were the head coach?"

[membengal]

I would guess something along the lines of:

Columbia: 1,238
USMNT: 1

You are vastly over-estimating the Ivy League, I think.

- - - Updated - - -


I'm much more excited about Euro than Copa. I think the USMNT is going to be totally outclassed. I doubt it will happen, but I'd like to see this as the last thing Klinnsman does as head coach. He gots to go.

It would help if he would go ahead and turn the kids loose. But I don't think he will.

[MWM]

Fair enough.

I am torn. There are times where I completely agree with what you said above. There are other times where I see Christian Pulisic and wonder to myself "Would this kid be playing for Croatia if Bob Bradley or Bruce Arena were the head coach?"

That's a fair point. I think that is the benefit he's brought. But at some point, it won't matter if he continues to run things the way he does.

[Yachtzee]

Fair enough.

I am torn. There are times where I completely agree with what you said above. There are other times where I see Christian Pulisic and wonder to myself "Would this kid be playing for Croatia if Bob Bradley or Bruce Arena were the head coach?"

Klinsmann has done a great job of identifying players and getting them cap tied. The problem is that he has made bold statements about what he wanted to do and what he wanted the team to achieve and, since the World Cup he hasn't delivered and hasn't really taken responsibility, instead throwing the players and MLS under the bus. At this point, I think he's done great to build the pool of cap tied players available for selection, but I have little confidence in his game and player management skills. I'd like to see what another coach could do with the same group of players. I think the talent is there if you have a coach who can put them in a position to succeed.

[Yachtzee]

Fair enough.

I am torn. There are times where I completely agree with what you said above. There are other times where I see Christian Pulisic and wonder to myself "Would this kid be playing for Croatia if Bob Bradley or Bruce Arena were the head coach?"

Klinsmann has done a great job of identifying players and getting them cap tied. The problem is that he has made bold statements about what he wanted to do and what he wanted the team to achieve and, since the World Cup he hasn't delivered and hasn't really taken responsibility, instead throwing the players and MLS under the bus. At this point, I think he's done great to build the pool of cap tied players available for selection, but I have little confidence in his game and player management skills. I'd like to see what another coach could do with the same group of players. I think the talent is there if you have a coach who can put them in a position to succeed.

[reds1869]

John Harkes predicted the USA in the final when someone asked him at his call-in show. I love the way he thinks but I don't know that I see it happening. We can dream, though.

[Reds Fanatic]

US in a major hole tonight as the hand ball penalty kick puts them down 2 headed toward the half

[Slyder]

And right there is textbook example of how to properly defend near post on a corner by Colombia.

[Slyder]

I'm reffing at the WV Open Cup this weekend and watching on Univision at a Red Roof Inn, I haven't seen the full game (tuned in about 58th minute). I'll go into more about Klinnsman when I'm home.

Cliff Notes of the game:
-Still don't like our defense we need to find/ develop some more speed to keep up. They give up waaaaay too many opportunities.
-Our front line/midfield is probably deeper than its been, maybe ever. We just haven't found that international center midfielder.
-I know Tim Howard is closer to 40 to 30, but if tonight is the best Guzan has we might be better off with the sunseting Howard until we find someone.

[tomnuetten]

I´m more excited for the copa than the european tournament (way to many teams => lots of very boring games until the real action starts + stupid german fans take the fun out of it and it´s hard for me to root for players I don´t like)

I only watched the last 15 minutes of the game yesterday/today (it was yesterday for you guys but 5 am for me ;) )
I know the score was bad for the US guys but wow watching this was awkward... a graveyard would have had a louder atmosphere (atleast from the german tv feed, they do show those games in free TV...)

[Yachtzee]

I´m more excited for the copa than the european tournament (way to many teams => lots of very boring games until the real action starts + stupid german fans take the fun out of it and it´s hard for me to root for players I don´t like)

I only watched the last 15 minutes of the game yesterday/today (it was yesterday for you guys but 5 am for me ;) )
I know the score was bad for the US guys but wow watching this was awkward... a graveyard would have had a louder atmosphere (atleast from the german tv feed, they do show those games in free TV...)

As is typical when the USMNT plays in California, the South, or on the East Coast, this was essentially a road game for the US. If you noticed, there were a huge number of yellow jerseys in that crowd. As a nation of immigrants, we still have a lot of people here who have an affinity to the home country when it comes to sports, to the point where many openly root for the country of their parents or grandparents over their own country. It is particularly bad with Mexico, but is also common with most teams from Central and South America. It is really only in the Midwest and the Pacific Northwest where the USMNT can play teams from the Americas and be guaranteed a majority crowd supporting the USMNT. Unfortunately, this tournament wasn't really set up to give the hosts an advantage. It was originally set up as a straight up cash grab by a bunch of people who are now in jail or on house arrest facing corruption charges. Also, as CONMEBOL runs Copa America, I assume they get the biggest say in where the matches are played. If US Soccer were able to dictate where the USMNT group stage matches would be held, I suspect they would have preferred more hospitable cities, such as Columbus, Kansas City, St. Louis, or Minneapolis in the Midwest or Seattle or Portland in the Northwest. As it is, they play they other two matches in Chicago (although in the Midwest, has a huge Latin American population) and Philadelphia (Has their own Latin American community, but also close to NYC and the Baltimore/DC area), so I don't really see the USMNT playing a "home" game this entire tournament, even if they advance.

[tomnuetten]

As is typical when the USMNT plays in California, the South, or on the East Coast, this was essentially a road game for the US. If you noticed, there were a huge number of yellow jerseys in that crowd. As a nation of immigrants, we still have a lot of people here who have an affinity to the home country when it comes to sports, to the point where many openly root for the country of their parents or grandparents over their own country. It is particularly bad with Mexico, but is also common with most teams from Central and South America. It is really only in the Midwest and the Pacific Northwest where the USMNT can play teams from the Americas and be guaranteed a majority crowd supporting the USMNT. Unfortunately, this tournament wasn't really set up to give the hosts an advantage. It was originally set up as a straight up cash grab by a bunch of people who are now in jail or on house arrest facing corruption charges. Also, as CONMEBOL runs Copa America, I assume they get the biggest say in where the matches are played. If US Soccer were able to dictate where the USMNT group stage matches would be held, I suspect they would have preferred more hospitable cities, such as Columbus, Kansas City, St. Louis, or Minneapolis in the Midwest or Seattle or Portland in the Northwest. As it is, they play they other two matches in Chicago (although in the Midwest, has a huge Latin American population) and Philadelphia (Has their own Latin American community, but also close to NYC and the Baltimore/DC area), so I don't really see the USMNT playing a "home" game this entire tournament, even if they advance.

that´s even worse ;) so the "home" team was leading 2-0 and it still was a bad atmosphere ;)

I just think that the TV feed was to blame because I don´t believe that it was that quiet... What are the expectations us media has? I don´t see how the US could win this tournament and I guess even reaching the semi final would be a success but perhaps you´ll see it differently

[reds1869]

What are the expectations us media has?

They don't have any expectations because they are mostly unaware the tournament exists.

[Stray]

I admittedly almost never watch soccer. Beyond understanding the basic rules and stuff, I don't know much of anything. Whenever I do watch it's the USMNT or the USWNT.

Thing is tho, whenever I watch our men Bradley seems to literally be so awful that he is the reason we always lose. I don't watch every game so maybe I'm missing his good ones, but is there a reason that he is pretty much our main trigger man? He seems to regularly have a terrible turnover (terminology?) that leads to a great scoring opp for the opponent at least a few times per game.

[Slyder]

I'll go into more about Klinnsman when I'm home.


This comes as someone who might not have followed closely before but it always seemed like with Arena, Bradley, etc is that they weren't worried about the network and just picking "their teams" every 2-4 years and it showed whenever we played someone like Germany, Italy, etc. We were 50 years behind the rest of the competitive world in terms of infrastructure in the national program. It is why we always seemingly floated around the middle of the world. Klinnsman has made great advancements in bringing US Soccer up to the 21st century in terms of training.

Is Klinnsman the man to finish the job? I don't know if he shouldn't be the "CEO/GM/President" and let someone else handle the on field stuff. I see great advancements in the youth movement, development, and keeping many of the good players with dual citizenship and you have to take that into account, but the team on the field still looks a bit disjointed.

And you have US Soccer handicapping the youth every chance they get out of "fear" of concussions. I don't see Germany, England, Brazil, etc. not allowing their kids to head the ball, or some of the restrictions of slide tackling (in some leagues).

[Yachtzee]

This comes as someone who might not have followed closely before but it always seemed like with Arena, Bradley, etc and Klinnsmann is that they weren't worried about the network and just picking "their teams" every 2-4 years and it showed whenever we played someone like Germany, Italy, etc. We were 50 years behind the rest of the competitive world in terms of infrastructure in the national program. It is why we always seemingly floated around the middle of the world. Klinnsman has made great advancements in bringing US Soccer up to the 21st century.

Is Klinnsman the man to finish the job? I don't know if he shouldn't be the "CEO/GM/President" and let someone else handle the on field stuff. I see great advancements in the youth movement, development, and keeping many of the good players with dual citizenship and you have to take that into account, but the team on the field still looks a bit disjointed.

And you have US Soccer handicapping the youth every chance they get out of "fear" of concussions. I don't see Germany, England, Brazil, etc. not allowing their kids to head the ball, or some of the restrictions of slide tackling (in some leagues).

I don't see the no header rule and the no slide tackling as detriments. On the contrary, I feel it might actually help the US develop better players in the long run. I'd be interested to hear tomnuetten's thoughts on American players, but from my understanding the stereotype that Europeans have of American players is that they are big, they are strong, and they are fast. They are good in the air. But they are lacking in technical skills with the ball at their feet and they aren't so great at using space on the field to their advantage. With the ban on headers, I've already noticed a change in the style of play in my son's U-11 league. With headers, you'd have a lot plays where stuff mostly happens in the air: Keeper punts the ball to midfield, kid on defense heads ball back toward keeper, kid on opposing team heads it back the other way, and then some fast kid gets it, dribbles to the top of the box and shoots. Very little team work and technical skill involved. Now on punts, the kids on my son's team are encouraged to bring the ball down to their feet, control it, and then decide whether to keep the ball or pass. Kids are encouraged to make runs off the ball and find space. Passing is emphasized with the mantra of "let the ball do the work." Teams of smaller kids like my son's team are doing much better against teams with bigger kids because it's now less about being bigger, stronger and faster and more about moving the ball, using your head to make smart plays instead of heading, and involving teammates. The boys have scored some really great goals that have been fun to watch, involving 3-4 kids getting touches before the shot. I'm sure other coaches are making adaptions on how they play too. I don't know if it will turn out better soccer players or not, but I have hopes that in 5-10 years we'll see more players with a better first touch, better passing, and in general being more confident with the ball at their feet.

As far as no slide tackling goes, I'm fine with that as well. Instead of teaching kids to slide, better to teach them to hustle and get into a good defensive position in order to stand up the guy with the ball and either slow things down or force him into making a bad decision. Makes them a better defender and results in fewer cards.

[M2]

I don't see the no header rule and the no slide tackling as detriments. On the contrary, I feel it might actually help the US develop better players in the long run. I'd be interested to hear tomnuetten's thoughts on American players, but from my understanding the stereotype that Europeans have of American players is that they are big, they are strong, and they are fast. They are good in the air. But they are lacking in technical skills with the ball at their feet and they aren't so great at using space on the field to their advantage. With the ban on headers, I've already noticed a change in the style of play in my son's U-11 league. With headers, you'd have a lot plays where stuff mostly happens in the air: Keeper punts the ball to midfield, kid on defense heads ball back toward keeper, kid on opposing team heads it back the other way, and then some fast kid gets it, dribbles to the top of the box and shoots. Very little team work and technical skill involved. Now on punts, the kids on my son's team are encouraged to bring the ball down to their feet, control it, and then decide whether to keep the ball or pass. Kids are encouraged to make runs off the ball and find space. Passing is emphasized with the mantra of "let the ball do the work." Teams of smaller kids like my son's team are doing much better against teams with bigger kids because it's now less about being bigger, stronger and faster and more about moving the ball, using your head to make smart plays instead of heading, and involving teammates. The boys have scored some really great goals that have been fun to watch, involving 3-4 kids getting touches before the shot. I'm sure other coaches are making adaptions on how they play too. I don't know if it will turn out better soccer players or not, but I have hopes that in 5-10 years we'll see more players with a better first touch, better passing, and in general being more confident with the ball at their feet.

As far as no slide tackling goes, I'm fine with that as well. Instead of teaching kids to slide, better to teach them to hustle and get into a good defensive position in order to stand up the guy with the ball and either slow things down or force him into making a bad decision. Makes them a better defender and results in fewer cards.

I can't like that post enough, so just know you've received infinity virtual likes from me.

[M2]

Argentina vs. Chile was fun. I maintain Argentina is better without Messi. He's not the same force of nature outside the Barca system. Argentina is still loaded without him and they seem more fluid when Leo isn't around. Also, I'm starting to suspect Messi is made of pure teflon. He came to this tournament after testifying in his own tax evasion case, yet it's all lovefest for this guy all the time. Still an amazing player, but his publicists might be even better.

[westofyou]

I can't like that post enough, so just know you've received infinity virtual likes from me.

Yep, I played a lot of soccer when I lived in Palo Alto, numerous Europeans and south of the border players. Us Americans were just as fast, just as strong and had a feel for the game, but once the ball hit our feet we dropped a notch.

[M2]

USMNT up 2-0 so far. Impressive because Costa Rica went to the final 8 in the World Cup two years ago.

Edit: 3-0

[Yachtzee]

4-0! I love that they've kept going forward instead of backing off and parking the bus. Better than I had hoped against a good Costa Rica team.

[M2]

Man, this Colombia-Paraguay game has been fantastic.

[Yachtzee]

Man, this Colombia-Paraguay game has been fantastic.

For all the talk about teams not taking it seriously, there have been some great games so far. The only disappointing thing so far has been attendance, and based on what I've been hearing on SiriusXMFC, the lack of sellouts seems to be more a problem of the organizers setting prices way too high. A lot of people have called in saying they would have tried to go if tickets were affordable. But when you have to factor in airfare and hotel to the exorbitant ticket prices, you're looking at dropping $1,000 for 1 game.

[Slyder]

I don't see the no header rule and the no slide tackling as detriments. On the contrary, I feel it might actually help the US develop better players in the long run. I'd be interested to hear tomnuetten's thoughts on American players, but from my understanding the stereotype that Europeans have of American players is that they are big, they are strong, and they are fast. They are good in the air. But they are lacking in technical skills with the ball at their feet and they aren't so great at using space on the field to their advantage. With the ban on headers, I've already noticed a change in the style of play in my son's U-11 league. With headers, you'd have a lot plays where stuff mostly happens in the air: Keeper punts the ball to midfield, kid on defense heads ball back toward keeper, kid on opposing team heads it back the other way, and then some fast kid gets it, dribbles to the top of the box and shoots. Very little team work and technical skill involved. Now on punts, the kids on my son's team are encouraged to bring the ball down to their feet, control it, and then decide whether to keep the ball or pass. Kids are encouraged to make runs off the ball and find space. Passing is emphasized with the mantra of "let the ball do the work." Teams of smaller kids like my son's team are doing much better against teams with bigger kids because it's now less about being bigger, stronger and faster and more about moving the ball, using your head to make smart plays instead of heading, and involving teammates. The boys have scored some really great goals that have been fun to watch, involving 3-4 kids getting touches before the shot. I'm sure other coaches are making adaptions on how they play too. I don't know if it will turn out better soccer players or not, but I have hopes that in 5-10 years we'll see more players with a better first touch, better passing, and in general being more confident with the ball at their feet.

As far as no slide tackling goes, I'm fine with that as well. Instead of teaching kids to slide, better to teach them to hustle and get into a good defensive position in order to stand up the guy with the ball and either slow things down or force him into making a bad decision. Makes them a better defender and results in fewer cards.

My general gripe is as a referee, most of the "major injuries" at the middle school level and high school levels that I personally have seen have come from sloppy slide tackling because they were never properly trained on how to do it safely.

I do agree with you that US youth need better ball skills but I dispise small sided games that many of the local leagues play because a few things generally happen.

1 Loss of midfield experience because players/coaches don't want to push up because goalies can punt box to box. And that affects the ability of the teams when they do start playing 11 on 11 (usually in middle school). It makes the job so much harder for middle school coaches.
2 The leagues put 2 teams on 1 (if they play 5 on the field I've seen as many as 13 on a team). Where half the kids are left to their own devices until about half way through a quarter/half when undoubtedly the coach pulls everyone and puts a brand new team on the field.

At least make the field big enough to play 8 v 8 at all ages beyond about U10 and not have to worry about a goalie war breaking out and wasting everyone's time.

[M2]

8v8 is standard at U12 (which includes U11). Might vary in some places, but most of the country is playing 8v8 at that level.

[Slyder]

8v8 is standard at U12 (which includes U11). Might vary in some places, but most of the country is playing 8v8 at that level.

U10 and under is like 6 on 6.
U5 is 3 on 3 (although I have much less problems with that, they generally have 2 fields for kids to play on).

[Yachtzee]

My general gripe is as a referee, most of the "major injuries" at the middle school level and high school levels that I personally have seen have come from sloppy slide tackling because they were never properly trained on how to do it safely.

I do agree with you that US youth need better ball skills but I dispise small sided games that many of the local leagues play because a few things generally happen.

1 Loss of midfield experience because players/coaches don't want to push up because goalies can punt box to box. And that affects the ability of the teams when they do start playing 11 on 11 (usually in middle school). It makes the job so much harder for middle school coaches.
2 The leagues put 2 teams on 1 (if they play 5 on the field I've seen as many as 13 on a team). Where half the kids are left to their own devices until about half way through a quarter/half when undoubtedly the coach pulls everyone and puts a brand new team on the field.

At least make the field big enough to play 8 v 8 at all ages beyond about U10 and not have to worry about a goalie war breaking out and wasting everyone's time.

I don't think there's a correlation between small-sided games and points 1 and 2. When I started playing soccer back at age 8 in 1979, it was 11 v. 11 on a full sized field. It was a lot of "kick-and-run" and the teams whose kids could run the farthest and the fastest won. The whole concept of small sided games and gradually adding players to the field as kids move up in age was something that was brought over from Germany and the Netherlands. The soccer club we've had my son playing in follows the current matrix; Micro (U5)=3x3, U6=4x4, U8=6x6, U10=8x8. After U10 they move to travel soccer within the Greater Akron Amateur Soccer Association which follows the rules outlined by US Youth Soccer Association.

Concerning point 1, our boys have been playing 8x8 for a number of seasons and it's only this season playing U11 travel that there have been goalies who can punt past midfield. So we haven't really seen issues with coaches keeping players back to wait for a box to box punt. From my experience, the more likely culprit for lack possession in the middle of the field comes more from poor coaching. Over the years, we've played a number of teams where the focus seems to be on winning rather than developing good soccer players. In those cases, the team will play their best player up top and the entire purpose of the team is to boot it up to their striker and have him or her take it to the box and shoot. There's really no build up or maintaining possession. Part of that comes from coaches and part of that comes from the pay-to-play system where parents, who often don't know squat about the game themselves, pay lots of money to get their kid onto a particular club team and don't like to see their kids lose. This, in turn, puts pressure on the coaches to win at all costs or risk losing kids, their parents and their parents' money to other clubs. The development of the kids and team as a whole ends up being sacrificed to achieve results on the scoreboard.

On point 2, that is really a problem with league organization. You shouldn't really have so many kids on one team that you have almost 3 complete lineups. A well organized league should be able to create enough teams and divvy up the players so that every kid gets ample playing time. But without knowing more, I don't know if those leagues do that because there aren't enough coaches, or enough fields facilities to support more teams, or there are some other factors that result in so many kids being on one team. My son's team had that issue one season for in house because one of our coaches is known for being very patient, so other coaches started pushing their problem children onto our team.

Regarding slide tackling, players make sloppy tackles when they are in a bad position and get beat. Teach kids how to get into good positions first before learning to slide tackle and I expect you'll see a lot better slide tackling later on in their development.

[M2]

U10 and under is like 6 on 6.

Yep. My biggest beef with 6v6 is coaches who won't let the defense cross the midfield line. It's criminal.

Though removing the keeper position at that level and playing with a hockey-sized net might give the game much better flow.

[M2]

The games in recent days have been excellent. Venezuela just beat Uruguay for the first time ever in a Copa America, and Jamaica and Mexico are going at each other something fierce.

[Tony Cloninger]

That was an emberrasement for my country of birth. That's what happens when your NT coach refuses to recycle players past their prime....even with obvious replacements....while players like Cavani remind me of Recoba, guys with no heart in games for the NT and prima donnas on their clubs.

Last time it was this bad was the 2006 Inter Con Playoff vs Australia....which caused them to miss the WC and began a complete teardown and rebuilt of the countries infrastructure.

[Yachtzee]

And Euro 2016 is underway. Say what you will about the French, but they are probably the nation that is best at singing their national anthem. A whole stadium singing La Marseillaise at the top of their lungs is quite moving.

[M2]

And Euro 2016 is underway. Say what you will about the French, but they are probably the nation that is best at singing their national anthem. A whole stadium singing La Marseillaise at the top of their lungs is quite moving.

The Portuguese sing a mighty fine national anthem too.

[M2]

Raheem Sterling is the perfect replacement for Theo Walcott for the England squad. I have no idea what he's doing out there and I'm fairly certain he doesn't either.

[Slyder]

Raheem Sterling is the perfect replacement for Theo Walcott for the England squad. I have no idea what he's doing out there and I'm fairly certain he doesn't either.

Is that the cousin to this bloak?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_2972200359&feature=iv&list=PLGVpxD1HlmJ9WLzd-kJyyIf0EHmnddWgQ&src_vid=CzWWbCPZE18&v=8F9jXYOH2c0

[IslandRed]

It wasn't pretty, but good on the USMNT making the lead stand up playing a man down.

[Javy Pornstache]

It wasn't pretty, but good on the USMNT making the lead stand up playing a man down.

Yep, great work by the US and huge shout out to Los Ticos for the help!

[M2]

John Brooks was a man and a half tonight.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Brooks, Yedlin, Zardes (eh), Wood, and Pulisic-- new Gold Era for US soccer or not?

Jozy Altidore is only 26 years old. He seems as if he's 38.

[RedTeamGo!]

Brooks, Yedlin, Zardes (eh), Wood, and Pulisic-- new Gold Era for US soccer or not?

Jozy Altidore is only 26 years old. He seems as if he's 38.

Zardes is not good...he's an OK MLS and CONCACAF player.

Pulisic is the great American soccer hope

Yedlin vastly improved once he spent a year playing in the EPL (this is not a coincidence)

Brooks has improved quite a bit since 2014 World Cup and is still only 23. Hopefully he continues on this path, plays for a solid bundesliga team.

I am very high on Bobby Wood. Reminds me of a young Clint Dempsey, he just moved to a Bundesliga team from their second division. 2016-2017 is going to be gigantic for his development. I would like to see him eventually move to the EPL.

Why doesn't Johannsen get play any more?

[Yachtzee]

Zardes is not good...he's an OK MLS and CONCACAF player.

Pulisic is the great American soccer hope

Yedlin vastly improved once he spent a year playing in the EPL (this is not a coincidence)

Brooks has improved quite a bit since 2014 World Cup and is still only 23. Hopefully he continues on this path, plays for a solid bundesliga team.

I am very high on Bobby Wood. Reminds me of a young Clint Dempsey, he just moved to a Bundesliga team from their second division. 2016-2017 is going to be gigantic for his development. I would like to see him eventually move to the EPL.

Why doesn't Johannsen get play any more?

I think Zardes and Yedlin are fit the stereotype of the classic US soccer player. They are both very athletic and can run all over the field and put the work in, but are often lacking on the technical side. Zardes tends to have a bad first touch that can end up losing him the ball. Yedlin is amazingly fast. When I spoke to football fans in England, they say he is probably the "paciest" (fastest) player in the EPL. But he often finds himself turned around or out of position. Of course, he can use his speed to recover and make up for getting turned around, but he would be so much better if he could learn to take a good position from the start and save his speed for positive play rather than making up for mistakes.

I really wish we could find a serviceable left back so that Fabian Johnson could play midfield like he does for Borussia Monchengladbach. Having watched quite a bit of Bundesliga this past season, Johnson has been great in a midfield role and is a key component for Monchengladbach's success.

[M2]

I really wish we could find a serviceable left back so that Fabian Johnson could play midfield like he does for Borussia Monchengladbach. Having watched quite a bit of Bundesliga this past season, Johnson has been great in a midfield role and is a key component for Monchengladbach's success.

The wingback situation is a bit of a mess. Maybe we'll see Edgar Castillo get a chance on the left. He's got quality and plays in Liga MX. Timothy Chandler and Greg Garza are injured, which limited the potential pool for this tournament. I keep hoping for Brek Shea to become the new DaMarcus Beasley, but that hasn't happened yet.

Yet it would be nice to see Johnson take the reigns in the middle.

[M2]

It's early in the Euro tournament, but Copa America has been played a much higher and been far more entertaining. To be fair, the first two days of Copa America was a little slow too, but then it kicked into gear.

[Big Red Smokey]

Welp. It's Ecuador

[Yachtzee]

Brazil-Peru match has gotten crazy late. Peru gets a goal on a handball that was missed and Brazil is now looking like they won't make it out of their group.

Edit: And Peru wins!

[RedTeamGo!]

LOL Brazil!

[M2]

The more they show the goal, the more I think it was a good goal. The above shot looks like it went off his hand, but you can't get any depth perception from that angle. The closest magnification from inside the net, it looks like it went off his upper thigh.

Brazil deserves to go home for being painfully dull.

[tomnuetten]

the European Championshop started very slowly and I do think this will last a while.. a lot of teams participating this year => lots of "bad" teams that will defend 90 min only...

and even the big nations have lots of question marks. Germany, Spain, Italy, ... France looks solid and I do believe that teams like Belgium, Croatia, England can do a lot of damage this year

the stereotype most people I know have about US soccer players => big and not good ... sry but that´s still the way most germans (especially non football experts) see the US.

They are very often great athletes but lots of them are way behind in soccer IQ. they have a hard time to do what bundesliga coaches want them to do.

+ some of the players who did make it in the bundesliga have a reputation of very hard and aggressive players (sometimes even unfair)

[IslandRed]

I keep hoping for Brek Shea to become the new DaMarcus Beasley, but that hasn't happened yet.

Agreed. I watch Orlando City games when I can, and it's been a mixed bag. He has the tools and supposedly works hard and likes playing there, but he still looks like a winger playing out of position too often.

[M2]

Lots of U.S. players have done well in the Bundesliga (Dolo being the best). Also, a lot of "American" players in Germany were born and raised in Germany. Of course our guys are a step behind in tactical awareness compared to the Germans, who might be the best in the world at that.

I was actually ribbing a German the other day on his notions of what qualifies a person as German. Mesut Ozil's name came up and he said Ozil isn't really German. I asked if Germany then should give up the most recent World Cup since so many of the players - Ozil, Khedira, Klose, Podolski, Boateng, Mustafi - weren't really German. He turned about five shades of red when I reminded him Germany's all-time leading scorer (Klose) is Polish. The benefits of mongrelization seemed lost on him.

It's odd how the lesser European sides make for less entertaining games while the lesser American sides often make for more entertaining games. Almost every team in Copa America is applying high pressure and flashing some wicked skills.

[tomnuetten]

Lots of U.S. players have done well in the Bundesliga (Dolo being the best). Also, a lot of "American" players in Germany were born and raised in Germany. Of course our guys are a step behind in tactical awareness compared to the Germans, who might be the best in the world at that.

I was actually ribbing a German the other day on his notions of what qualifies a person as German. Mesut Ozil's name came up and he said Ozil isn't really German. I asked if Germany then should give up the most recent World Cup since so many of the players - Ozil, Khedira, Klose, Podolski, Boateng, Mustafi - weren't really German. He turned about five shades of red when I reminded him Germany's all-time leading scorer (Klose) is Polish. The benefits of mongrelization seemed lost on him.

It's odd how the lesser European sides make for less entertaining games while the lesser American sides often make for more entertaining games. Almost every team in Copa America is applying high pressure and flashing some wicked skills.

yet those lesser teams wouldn´t win with their style against those european teams. Yes it is more entertaining to watch teams in full attack mode, yet it isn´t the smartest thing to do. And I did enjoy the copa more than the european tournament.

Yes some of the US players grew up in germany, but not all ;) the US is getting better, but your still far away from being a top 10 team of the world...

The same talk I do often have with other germans aswell, Özil is a player that isn´t liked by german fans because he did have some terrible games in the national team and is oftentimes unvisible (but he does have great moments in every game and he did help the national team a lot in recent years). Klose, Boateng, Khedira, Podolski are players that are well liked

=> idiots who don´t like özil do criticize him in unfair ways (that he isn´t german and he doesn´t want to sing the national anthem) while they have no problem with other players with foreign relatives (who do not sing the national anthem either). German nazis and ultra conservative people don´t like everyone with a foreign heritage in the national team though (obviously there aren´t a lot of them)...

I hate 99% of german national team fans and I have to admit that I´m rooting against them most times... I hoped Argentina would win the trophy two years ago... I don´t like nationalism. I like that you´ll find very little national flags, hear the national anthem not very often etc. in germany, yet during those soccer tournaments things change (and in my books not for the better)...

I do have friends that do not care about football 99% of the time but the moment there is a big national team tournament they´ll buy every stupid thing with a german flag on it, they´ll go to parties in every big city to watch the games with other fans and start to thing songs against other countries... attacks against foreigners go up big time aswell during those weeks...

so I´m happy that you told your german friend that he was/is a hypocrit..

[Yachtzee]

yet those lesser teams wouldn´t win with their style against those european teams. Yes it is more entertaining to watch teams in full attack mode, yet it isn´t the smartest thing to do. And I did enjoy the copa more than the european tournament.

Yes some of the US players grew up in germany, but not all ;) the US is getting better, but your still far away from being a top 10 team of the world...

The same talk I do often have with other germans aswell, Özil is a player that isn´t liked by german fans because he did have some terrible games in the national team and is oftentimes unvisible (but he does have great moments in every game and he did help the national team a lot in recent years). Klose, Boateng, Khedira, Podolski are players that are well liked

=> idiots who don´t like özil do criticize him in unfair ways (that he isn´t german and he doesn´t want to sing the national anthem) while they have no problem with other players with foreign relatives (who do not sing the national anthem either). German nazis and ultra conservative people don´t like everyone with a foreign heritage in the national team though (obviously there aren´t a lot of them)...

I hate 99% of german national team fans and I have to admit that I´m rooting against them most times... I hoped Argentina would win the trophy two years ago... I don´t like nationalism. I like that you´ll find very little national flags, hear the national anthem not very often etc. in germany, yet during those soccer tournaments things change (and in my books not for the better)...

I do have friends that do not care about football 99% of the time but the moment there is a big national team tournament they´ll buy every stupid thing with a german flag on it, they´ll go to parties in every big city to watch the games with other fans and start to thing songs against other countries... attacks against foreigners go up big time aswell during those weeks...

so I´m happy that you told your german friend that he was/is a hypocrit..


There's a difference between nationalism and patriotism. Nationalism is based on the idea that people are somehow separated by their bloodlines and culture, whereas patriotism is more a sense of pride in the land where you live or where you were born. I know plenty of Germans who are fans of the German National Team and wear jerseys and wave flags during tournaments, yet are politically on the left or center and support progressive causes. In fact, some of the conservatives I knew in Germany and Austria would be considered left wingers by our Republican party. Same with Austrians, French, Poles, English, etc. Yet I've heard plenty of stories for all of those countries of right-wing minorities cloaking themselves in the national colors and using it as an excuse to fight with foreigners. You're free to choose who you want to root for, but if you're deciding factor is based on the behavior of the fan base, I would pretty much rule out rooting for most national teams from the Americas, where fans get so crazy it is common for the US players and its supporters to get pelted with batteries, cups of beer, and bags filled with urine when the USMNT. Part of the reason why MLS is very popular with Argentinian players is because playing in Argentina can be so dangerous that fans will attack their own players when the team does poorly. Germans are tame compared to how people behave in much of the Americas and even in Europe. Fans can be particularly nasty in the countries of the former Yugoslavia. Even in the USA we have idiots who cover themselves in red, white, and blue and like to go on racist rants. I don't let their stupidity affect my joy when the USMNT does well.

I think it's great when Germans embrace a national team that includes Jerome Boateng, Mesut Ozil, Sammi Khedira, Miroslav Klose, and Lukas Podolski. I love that Austria's best player is David Alaba. The great thing about international football is that the rules on who can join a national team allow players with ties to multiple countries to choose who they wish to represent and be recognized as a member of that society. If Jerome Boateng or Mesut Ozil wants to represent Germany, they can, just like the US can have Jermaine Jones, Fabian Johnson, John Anthony Brooks, Timmy Chandler, and Julian Green, who may look American but are more comfortable speaking German rather than English.

[MWM]

Italy looks pretty much like Italy always looks. Different players, exact same style and result.

[M2]

yet those lesser teams wouldn´t win with their style against those european teams. Yes it is more entertaining to watch teams in full attack mode, yet it isn´t the smartest thing to do. And I did enjoy the copa more than the european tournament.

They're not likely to beat Germany, but they can plow through the standard overly cautious European side. From the last World Cup:

Mexico 3-1 Croatia
Colombia 3-0 Greece
Costa Rica 1-0 Italy
Chile 2-0 Spain
Uruguay 2-1 England
Uruguay 1-0 Italy
Costa Rica 1-1 (5-3 pen) Greece

And I'd take Ecuador, Paraguay, Bolivia, Peru and Venezuela over a lot of the 17-24 teams in the Euro. We saw last night where Peru played an organized defense, but still found ways to attack Brazil (and win). Northern Ireland can't do that.


Yes some of the US players grew up in germany, but not all ;) the US is getting better, but your still far away from being a top 10 team of the world...

I'd say we're far from the top 5. Yet we keep making the round of 16 at the World Cup, which I think indicates maybe we're top 16, which isn't all that far from the top 10.


I hate 99% of german national team fans and I have to admit that I´m rooting against them most times... I hoped Argentina would win the trophy two years ago... I don´t like nationalism. I like that you´ll find very little national flags, hear the national anthem not very often etc. in germany, yet during those soccer tournaments things change (and in my books not for the better)...

I hear what you're saying. It would bug me too. One of the great things about being a U.S. soccer fan is the people most likely to take rooting for our country to a dark place don't pay a lot of attention to soccer. It's fun to root for a USA team and not have it wrapped up in American exceptionalism. I actually was rooting for Germany last time around, mainly because they played much more inventive football (particularly Ozil, who does a lot of small, brilliant things that get overlooked).

[M2]

Italy looks pretty much like Italy always looks. Different players, exact same style and result.

Italy gonna Italy.

[tomnuetten]

it´s not the only reason I´m rooting against germany (most times). obviously most teams have stupid and racist fans. You only have to look what russian fans do during and before the game, what poland does, what almost every eastern europe team does... looks like all racist thugs use the tournament to beat the sh1t out of eachother...

I do know that fans in Argentina and Brasil are even worse (criminality in those countries is generally worse than what we have in germany)... you´ll see some hooligans from germany fighting with fists and throwing stuff through the air. Using assault weapons isn´t something they do though..
Yet I don´t see those people every day, I don´t see them partying after a win and I don´t hear the (often times) racist and stupid things they say before, during and after a game. I do hear those things from german fans though => it makes it harder to root for them.
+ I don´t like most of the players all season in the bundesliga because they were diving or killed my favorit teams ;) => hard to root for them the moment they´ll put the national team jersey on

Nationalism and patriotism are different, yet patriotism leads often times towards the other.


I do think that we disagree what a lesser american team is though. Those teams you mentioned are good teams. It´s like telling that England, Belgium, Italy, Croatia are lesser european teams... (they are still great teams)

Greece is one of the worst European teams. Your examples are fine, yet you forget to mention that this tournament was actually held in south america and lots of those european had big time problems with the climate conditions (it was rather obvious). Last time the world cup was in europe (2006) argentina and brasil were the only teams advancing to the quarterfinals (all other teams were european), all of the semi finalists were european aswell... I´m not that high on home court advantage but I do believe that it is a big deal in which part of the world the games are played...

teams I rate above USA in no particular order:

1. Chile
2. Argentina
3. Uruguay
4. Mexiko
5. Germany
6. France
7. England
8. Spain
9. Italy
10. Belgium
11. Switzerland
12. Croatia
13. Poland
14. Netherlands
15. Columbia

....
I do think that the USA will get a lot better going forward but I still think that the teams I mentioned above would win a ten game series against the USA...

[Yachtzee]

Speaking of hateful teams and their ill-mannered fans, Mexico is losing to Venezuela right now. Mexico has been warned about their fans' homophobic chants during games and they're clearly at it again. FIFA keeps telling Mexico to get their fans to stop, but then never follows through with sanctions.

[M2]

I do think that we disagree what a lesser american team is though. Those teams you mentioned are good teams. It´s like telling that England, Belgium, Italy, Croatia are lesser european teams... (they are still great teams)

Greece is one of the worst European teams. Your examples are fine, yet you forget to mention that this tournament was actually held in south america and lots of those european had big time problems with the climate conditions (it was rather obvious). Last time the world cup was in europe (2006) argentina and brasil were the only teams advancing to the quarterfinals (all other teams were european), all of the semi finalists were european aswell... I´m not that high on home court advantage but I do believe that it is a big deal in which part of the world the games are played...

teams I rate above USA in no particular order:

1. Chile
2. Argentina
3. Uruguay
4. Mexiko
5. Germany
6. France
7. England
8. Spain
9. Italy
10. Belgium
11. Switzerland
12. Croatia
13. Poland
14. Netherlands
15. Columbia

....
I do think that the USA will get a lot better going forward but I still think that the teams I mentioned above would win a ten game series against the USA...

The U.S. was better than England two years ago. The Brits have an infusion of talent from all those Tottenham kids now, so maybe it's climbed above the Americans. In general I find England the most overrated team on the planet at any given second. They've rarely got a midfielder.

The Dutch are a mess at this moment, though a mess with a pile of talent.

Switzerland, meh. They don't do much for me. Tied the U.S. in a friendly last year, which strikes me as flattering for the Swiss.

Croatia and Poland each have a gifted player - Modric and Lewandowski. Those two players can beat you by themselves, but Croatia's never made it out of the group stage at the World Cup and Poland rarely makes it to the World Cup. Portugal's the same kind of single-star-driven team with Ronaldo. In a money game between the U.S. and any of those teams I think you'd see a close game. Uruguay without Suarez looks fairly weak.

The U.S. and Mexico has been a blood rivalry for two decades. We take turns gaining the upper hand. They had it last year, but it can shift on a dime. If anything, the never ending battle between those teams is an argument that the U.S. has been a solid side for the entirety of this century. Mexico is always a good team and we're often better.

Love that you don't have Brazil on that list. Can't believe how much of a catastrophe that team is. Doesn't seem to be a reasonable striker in the entire nation.

Hemispheric advantage might have played a role in 2014. It certainly allowed more fans from Colombia, Uruguay, Chile and Costa Rica to get to the games. I also think played a role. Positive football really paid off at that World Cup.

[M2]

Man, this Mexico-Venezuela game is hot. Jesus Corona is a force of nature.

[westofyou]

Great game, the pace was frantic, that run was epic


No Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[M2]

How is Jamaica's national anthem not a reggae song? In fact, how is it not "Many Rivers to Cross"?

[westofyou]

Great game, the pace was frantic, that run was epic


No Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tomnuetten]

The U.S. was better than England two years ago. The Brits have an infusion of talent from all those Tottenham kids now, so maybe it's climbed above the Americans. In general I find England the most overrated team on the planet at any given second. They've rarely got a midfielder.

The Dutch are a mess at this moment, though a mess with a pile of talent.

Switzerland, meh. They don't do much for me. Tied the U.S. in a friendly last year, which strikes me as flattering for the Swiss.

Croatia and Poland each have a gifted player - Modric and Lewandowski. Those two players can beat you by themselves, but Croatia's never made it out of the group stage at the World Cup and Poland rarely makes it to the World Cup. Portugal's the same kind of single-star-driven team with Ronaldo. In a money game between the U.S. and any of those teams I think you'd see a close game. Uruguay without Suarez looks fairly weak.

The U.S. and Mexico has been a blood rivalry for two decades. We take turns gaining the upper hand. They had it last year, but it can shift on a dime. If anything, the never ending battle between those teams is an argument that the U.S. has been a solid side for the entirety of this century. Mexico is always a good team and we're often better.

Love that you don't have Brazil on that list. Can't believe how much of a catastrophe that team is. Doesn't seem to be a reasonable striker in the entire nation.

Hemispheric advantage might have played a role in 2014. It certainly allowed more fans from Colombia, Uruguay, Chile and Costa Rica to get to the games. I also think played a role. Positive football really paid off at that World Cup.


I don´t care about friendly games. Most european teams don´t give a sh1t about those games either (most of the times the best players aren´t playing anyway)

Crotia has one good player with Modric? How about one of the best players by Barcelona (this year) Rakitic? Or how about Mandzukic (someone I don´t like but he is good) ? Won the title with Juventus this year, last year was part of Atletico, the years before he won the CL with Bayern... and there are other good players (beside those 3 mentioned)

Poland has one great player in Lewandowski, but they do have talent on other positions aswell. Piszcek (Dortmund), Szczesny (Arsenal, at the moment AS Rom), Krychowiak (Sevilla) , Milik (great talent from Ajax), Blaszczykowski (Florenz), Glik (Turin)

I also think played a role? I don´t understand this... Positive football? If you mean attacking football than I´d argue what Brasil did against Germany didn´t do them any favors at all ;) Argentina made it to the final with a very defensive minded strategy (which is weird because they do have the greatest player on offense in the world, while the defense isn´t that well known)

[RedTeamGo!]

I love watching Messi play for Barcelona, don't get me wrong, but I often wonder if he would be half the player if he played for someone else.

[RedTeamGo!]

sh1t

I don't care, and it doesn't bother me, but you should probably stop doing this.

[M2]

I don´t care about friendly games. Most european teams don´t give a sh1t about those games either (most of the times the best players aren´t playing anyway)

Crotia has one good player with Modric? How about one of the best players by Barcelona (this year) Rakitic? Or how about Mandzukic (someone I don´t like but he is good) ? Won the title with Juventus this year, last year was part of Atletico, the years before he won the CL with Bayern... and there are other good players (beside those 3 mentioned).

Poland has one great player in Lewandowski, but they do have talent on other positions aswell. Piszcek (Dortmund), Szczesny (Arsenal, at the moment AS Rom), Krychowiak (Sevilla) , Milik (great talent from Ajax), Blaszczykowski (Florenz), Glik (Turin)

I also think played a role? I don´t understand this... Positive football? If you mean attacking football than I´d argue what Brasil did against Germany didn´t do them any favors at all ;) Argentina made it to the final with a very defensive minded strategy (which is weird because they do have the greatest player on offense in the world, while the defense isn´t that well known)

The U.S. doesn't care about friendlies any more than European sides. Only brought up the 2015 U.S.-Switzerland friendly because it's the only time they've played. Unlike the U.S., Switzerland does not progress to the knockout rounds of the World Cup on regular basis.

Croatia has one gifted player. One guy who can beat you almost by himself. He did pretty much exactly that to Turkey on Sunday. Rakitic, Mandzukic and Perisic are all fine players (Rakitic especially), but none of them are making a World 11. And I'm not saying Croatia isn't a good team. It's got lots of talent, but the back line is a little soft and the team struggles to create width. If the U.S. ran into Croatia in a World Cup, I'd like the Americans' chances. Same boat with Poland. Again, the U.S. has three rounds of 16 and one round 8 in the last six World Cups. Croatia and Poland do not measure up.

Not sure what confused you about hemispheric advantage. Teams from the Americas were able to get more fans to the games. The effects of heat/humidity on the Brazilian games varied dependent how far north/south the games were being played. Games in the south were quite temperate. Argentina has a history of playing dire football with wildly talented teams. Their last runner up effort in 1990 featured some of the ugliest anti-football human eyes have ever seen, despite having Maradona and Caniggia in the attack. Brazil got so owned by Germany, it's hard to blame that on any tactical failings. Yet Colombia, Chile and Uruguay all played more expansive football and got good runs out of it.

Anyway, my point is we all know the U.S. doesn't rank among the game's elite, but neither do a lot of the teams you listed.

[M2]

Adam Szalai just scored a sweet goal for Hungary and then had an even better goal celebration.

[Yachtzee]

Adam Szalai just scored a sweet goal for Hungary and then had an even better goal celebration.

Disappointed by the Austria loss, as it was my home in Europe. Iceland pulls off the big draw with Portugal.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Disappointed by the Austria loss, as it was my home in Europe. Iceland pulls off the big draw with Portugal.

Well that Iceland draw was the best thing Austria could have hoped for.

[Yachtzee]

Well that Iceland draw was the best thing Austria could have hoped for.

Pretty much. Unfortunately, Hungary was viewed by most as the weakest squad in the group, so they're going to have their work cut out for them if they want to advance.

[Yachtzee]

I love watching Messi play for Barcelona, don't get me wrong, but I often wonder if he would be half the player if he played for someone else.

Considering he came on as a sub for Argentina and got a hat trick, I'd say he's pretty good even when he's not playing for Barcelona. That's kind of like saying that you love Babe Ruth, but you wonder if he would have been half the player if he hadn't been playing for the New York Yankees.

[M2]

Considering he came on as a sub for Argentina and got a hat trick, I'd say he's pretty good even when he's not playing for Barcelona. That's kind of like saying that you love Babe Ruth, but you wonder if he would have been half the player if he hadn't been playing for the New York Yankees.

Soccer's a different animal. Messi's a great player, but he's not the same guy with Argentina that he is with Barca. Part of it is he does a lot more donkey work with Argentina, which is admirable, but it prevents him from drifting into the open spots as easily when the attack is on.

[Yachtzee]

Soccer's a different animal. Messi's a great player, but he's not the same guy with Argentina that he is with Barca. Part of it is he does a lot more donkey work with Argentina, which is admirable, but it prevents him from drifting into the open spots as easily when the attack is on.

Well, one could say that Cristiano Ronaldo isn't the same player with Portugal as he is with Madrid. From what I've seen over the years, he scores a ton in qualifying, but when it comes to the tournament, he seems to resort to more play acting and gamesmanship in order to draw free kicks and penalties instead of using his talents to score from the run of play. Portugal seems to be more of a disappointment in recent years compared to the promise they showed in the mid 2000s when Ronaldo was just starting out with the national team.

But if you want compare Ronaldo and Messi by looking at the overall stats, Ronaldo has 58 goals in 127 games (a rate of 0.46 goals per game) for Portugal and Messi has 53 in 109 (a rate of 0.49) for Argentina, so in terms of goal scoring for their national teams, they're pretty darn similar.

The reality of it though is that both Ronaldo and Messi are world class players who play for world class club teams that win and national teams that haven't had success in winning international tournaments. Is that the fault of Ronaldo and Messi? Or is it something else? I think it's something else. Messi and Ronaldo both would be world class players no matter what team you put them on. Just because they play for clubs that have surrounded them with other world class talents doesn't make them lesser players. I reject the notion RedTeamGo put forth that Messi may only be considered as good as he is because he plays for Barcelona. Whether you play for Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Juventus or any of the other top teams of Europe, you play against teams in both league play and Champions League that are so stacked that, if you weren't such a great player, you would likely get exposed because those other teams are actively seeking weaknesses on the other teams to exploit. Barcelona is a smart team. If Messi wasn't as good as advertised, they would have sold him by now and replaced him with someone better. Same with Real Madrid and Ronaldo. Lesser talents just don't stick around long on those teams.

[bucksfan2]

Well, one could say that Cristiano Ronaldo isn't the same player with Portugal as he is with Madrid. From what I've seen over the years, he scores a ton in qualifying, but when it comes to the tournament, he seems to resort to more play acting and gamesmanship in order to draw free kicks and penalties instead of using his talents to score from the run of play. Portugal seems to be more of a disappointment in recent years compared to the promise they showed in the mid 2000s when Ronaldo was just starting out with the national team.

But if you want compare Ronaldo and Messi by looking at the overall stats, Ronaldo has 58 goals in 127 games (a rate of 0.46 goals per game) for Portugal and Messi has 53 in 109 (a rate of 0.49) for Argentina, so in terms of goal scoring for their national teams, they're pretty darn similar.

The reality of it though is that both Ronaldo and Messi are world class players who play for world class club teams that win and national teams that haven't had success in winning international tournaments. Is that the fault of Ronaldo and Messi? Or is it something else? I think it's something else. Messi and Ronaldo both would be world class players no matter what team you put them on. Just because they play for clubs that have surrounded them with other world class talents doesn't make them lesser players. I reject the notion RedTeamGo put forth that Messi may only be considered as good as he is because he plays for Barcelona. Whether you play for Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Juventus or any of the other top teams of Europe, you play against teams in both league play and Champions League that are so stacked that, if you weren't such a great player, you would likely get exposed because those other teams are actively seeking weaknesses on the other teams to exploit. Barcelona is a smart team. If Messi wasn't as good as advertised, they would have sold him by now and replaced him with someone better. Same with Real Madrid and Ronaldo. Lesser talents just don't stick around long on those teams.

If it were up to me and I was building a team, I think I would go with Ronaldo over Messi. I think Ronaldo is a little better, and can do a little more all around that Messi can. But to me its kind of like choosing between Harper on Trout.

I kind of agree with RedsTeamGo in regards to the Barca notion. Barca has more talent on the front line than pretty much the rest of the world. They boost Suarez and Neymar to go along side Messi on the front. It makes it a lot easier to play when you have two other great strikers up front rather than just yourself.

[RedTeamGo!]

Considering he came on as a sub for Argentina and got a hat trick, I'd say he's pretty good even when he's not playing for Barcelona. That's kind of like saying that you love Babe Ruth, but you wonder if he would have been half the player if he hadn't been playing for the New York Yankees.

I hate to pick nits, but this is not a very apt comparison. Baseball and soccer is like apples and chocolate cake.

[M2]

Well, one could say that Cristiano Ronaldo isn't the same player with Portugal as he is with Madrid. From what I've seen over the years, he scores a ton in qualifying, but when it comes to the tournament, he seems to resort to more play acting and gamesmanship in order to draw free kicks and penalties instead of using his talents to score from the run of play. Portugal seems to be more of a disappointment in recent years compared to the promise they showed in the mid 2000s when Ronaldo was just starting out with the national team.

Portugal's just not all that great a team. Ronaldo carries them as far as he can, but his strike partner options are Nani and Ricardo Quaresma, two of the most notable disappointments of the past decade. Ricardo Carvalho is still playing for Portugal. When Ronaldo first came along, Portugal was stacked: Deco, Carvalho in his prime, Simao, Postiga, Tiago, Maniche, Nuno Valente, Luis Figo, Pauleta. Portugal wouldn't have made the last World Cup or this Euro tournament without Ronaldo carrying the team on his back.

At the national level, Messi plays with the most loaded attacking team on the planet. It actually works against him a bit, because (as I mentioned above) he often takes on added defensive responsibilities. At Barca he mostly applies high pressure and then serves as an outlet for others when they win the ball. For Argentina, he's doing a lot more work in the defensive third. I respect him for doing that work, but it does translate to more workmanlike performances. We've seen a shining example of it in this Copa. Against Panama he came on late and played in the classic #10 slot. He drifted into space, let others win the ball and caused the other team fits. Against Bolivia he came far deeper defensively and was heavily involved in bringing the ball into the final third. The result was no goals. It's tough to attack from the midfield stripe.

[M2]

Just tossing a question to the group, is there a great team in Europe at this moment outside of Germany?

[reds1869]

Just tossing a question to the group, is there a great team in Europe at this moment outside of Germany?

France is really, really good.

[westofyou]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClAUjfAXAAI2_Li.jpg:large

[M2]

It will be interesting to see how massive the transfer offers are for Kingsley Coman after the Euro tournament. He's on the verge of being amazing.

[westofyou]

France.... waiting... waiting... ok

[tomnuetten]

every team in europe has weak spots... german is weak on the defensive end and they do get old at the central midfield position (Khedira and Schweinsteiger)

France looks to me as the top team at the Euro this year. They do have a well rounded team. England has lots of fine young players, let´s see if they can (after lots of terrible years) start to play good football at the big tournament (they did play good during the qualification...)

Italy and Spain are getting old but they still have teams that can win against any opponent of the world. It isn´t that interesting to watch them play, but they are good though.

Belgium and Portugal look good on paper but they don´t play very succesful...

I´m still very high on Croatia, they played good in the past games and they have great players (Rakitic was one of the most important players on Barca, he is to Barca what Modric is to Real...

I never said that the teams I mentioned earlier are going to win the World Cup anytime soon and yes lots of those teams have weak spots, but I still would bet on those teams over the US

[M2]

I never said that the teams I mentioned earlier are going to win the World Cup anytime soon and yes lots of those teams have weak spots, but I still would bet on those teams over the US

I'd bet the other way in some of those cases. We'd probably both lose a lot of money.

[MWM]

Michael Ballack just summarized verbatim what's been said in this thread about international perceptions of US players after he was asked what his view of the US team was.

[thatcoolguy_22]

Anyone watch the US v Ecuador game? At times, it looked more like a rugby match. I'm convinced Antonio Valencia is related to the Hanson Brothers. That guy is dirty. The ref let the game get out of control for awhile. However, US prevailed. They will be without Bobby Wood, Jermaine Jones, And Alejandro Bedoya in the semis in a likely match against Argentina.

As far as Euros go, I'm betting everything on a Northern Ireland and Iceland final.

[Yachtzee]

Crazy day for soccer. England beats Wales, Northern Ireland gets their first Euros win, and US beats Ecuador with both teams down to 10 men. The only game that was a disappointment was the Germany-Poland matchup. I was really looking forward to that one, but I ended up falling asleep in the second half.

Loved the US win, but man it's going to stink being without Jermaine Jones and Bobby Wood in the semifinals.

[Kingspoint]

I switched from the German/Poland matchup in the 2nd half, too.

Will still take the win by the U.S.

[IslandRed]

Crazy day for soccer. England beats Wales, Northern Ireland gets their first Euros win, and US beats Ecuador with both teams down to 10 men. The only game that was a disappointment was the Germany-Poland matchup. I was really looking forward to that one, but I ended up falling asleep in the second half.

Loved the US win, but man it's going to stink being without Jermaine Jones and Bobby Wood in the semifinals.

I think we can paper over the loss of Jones, but losing Wood is going to force a change in how we play. We've had a lot of success the last couple of games flipping the field with the long ball, and I don't know if anyone else has the pace to do what Wood's been doing.

[membengal]

Pulisic absolutely does.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Pulisic absolutely does.

But Klinnsman would never put him in this big a game. He values experience (too much) over talent.

The US will hunker down, play tough D, protect the goal at all costs, and hope for a lucky goal.

With only Dempsey and and Bradley capable of creating any offense, that's a tall order.

Better, IMO, to fail spectacularly. Throw Pulisic to the wolves. What's the worst that could happen?

[BuckeyeRed27]

But Klinnsman would never put him in this big a game. He values experience (too much) over talent.

The US will hunker down, play tough D, protect the goal at all costs, and hope for a lucky goal.

With only Dempsey and and Bradley capable of creating any offense, that's a tall order.

Better, IMO, to fail spectacularly. Throw Pulisic to the wolves. What's the worst that could happen?

I bet Pulisic plays. Zardes goes up top to take the place of Wood next to Dempsey and the midfield becomes Pulisic, Bradley, Beckerman, Nagbe and the back line goes back to normal with Yedlin back. That isn't a bad line up and has a ton of pace. If he wants to go with experience he could put Zusi in for Pulisic.

[M2]

With Yedlin back and Jones gone, I'd be tempted to keep Besler on the left and play Fabian Johnson in Jones' spot. IMO, that would things well organized in the middle and on the back line.

[M2]

Michael Ballack just summarized verbatim what's been said in this thread about international perceptions of US players after he was asked what his view of the US team was.

It's a long-standing perception. Our guys don't ooze skill. Yet our team is pretty good, for which the rest of the world is never going to give us credit.

[BuckeyeRed27]

With Yedlin back and Jones gone, I'd be tempted to keep Besler on the left and play Fabian Johnson in Jones' spot. IMO, that would things well organized in the middle and on the back line.

It probably doesn't matter what we do, but I don't love the idea of having an out of position defender basically responsible for Messi. I know Johnson technically isn't a LB but he has more experience (and speed) than Besler does.

[MWM]

Spain looking like the well-oiled machine we've come to expect from them. They may not be what they were 4 years ago, but they're going to be very tough to beat. Based on early round games so far, I like them to make it 3 in a row.

[membengal]

With Yedlin back and Jones gone, I'd be tempted to keep Besler on the left and play Fabian Johnson in Jones' spot. IMO, that would things well organized in the middle and on the back line.

Yedlin should be back, no? His suspension now served when he missed the quarter final?

[RedTeamGo!]

Yedlin should be back, no? His suspension now served when he missed the quarter final?

"With Yedlin back..."

[BuckeyeRed27]

Yedlin should be back, no? His suspension now served when he missed the quarter final?

Yedlin is back. Jones, Bedoya and Wood are out.

[membengal]

Sorry, long day at work and read too fast. I will show myself out now.

[M2]

It probably doesn't matter what we do, but I don't love the idea of having an out of position defender basically responsible for Messi. I know Johnson technically isn't a LB but he has more experience (and speed) than Besler does.

My guess is Besler would win a footrace against Johnson. He's fast, and he's got World Cup experience. Johnson might be the most skilled player on the team. If you get him in the middle, that's more opportunities for him to make plays and influence the game. He'll also add defensive solidity to the middle. Besler on the back line allows the U.S. to play a false 3. Yedlin can bomb forward on the right with three CDs covering for him. That also allows the right wing to tuck into the middle a bit.

I like Beckerman, but IMO Johnson is the optimal replacement for Jones. He will be the guy who replaces Jones eventually. It's the most important decision Klinsmann has to make for the next game.

[M2]

Iceland really is all about smashing and grabbing. They're driving the Hungarians nuts.

[westofyou]

Iceland really is all about smashing and grabbing. They're driving the Hungarians nuts.

In Iceland every battle prepares you for Ragnarök

[Kingspoint]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-soccer-euro-russia-idUKKCN0YZ1YL?mod=related&channelName=sportsNews

[RedTeamGo!]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-soccer-euro-russia-idUKKCN0YZ1YL?mod=related&channelName=sportsNews

Wowzer.

I hope this leads to the 2018 World Cup being taken away from Russia.

I was thinking about going to the World Cup in Russia, but definitely not now.

[Yachtzee]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-soccer-euro-russia-idUKKCN0YZ1YL?mod=related&channelName=sportsNews

The violence exhibited by Russian hooligans and the unwillingness of the Russian authorities to take serious efforts to stamp out such behavior makes the prospects of a Russian World Cup in 2018 truly frightening. Based on the way Russia is responding to the international ban on their track and field team, I doubt Russia will do anything about it unless FIFA threatens to pull the World Cup. They could easily have the UK, France, or Germany host on short notice, or even have hosting split among multiple countries if necessary. I doubt FIFA will do it seeing as how they turn a blind eye to abuses in Qatar. I honestly think it will take a tragedy for FIFA to take things like fan safety and human rights seriously.

[Yachtzee]

Chile up 3-0 on Mexico. Would love for this result to hold. I can't stand Mexico and their beer throwing, homophobic chanting fans.

Make it 4-0.

[RedTeamGo!]

Mexico is getting straight clowned by Chile.

Alexis Sanchez is incredible.

- - - Updated - - -

5-0!

[westofyou]

Mexico is getting straight clowned by Chile.

Alexis Sanchez is incredible.

- - - Updated - - -

5-0!

Damn those NBA refs

[Yachtzee]

This is a slaughter. Chile almost makes it 6-0 and is showing no sign of letting up.

[Yachtzee]

Chile makes it 6-0 and the Mexican fans have turned on their team and are using their famous gay slur chant against their own keeper.

[M2]

Chile may be the best high pressure national team on the planet. They're relentless.

[westofyou]

Brutal


No Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[paintmered]

Good on Mexico to keep it to a one touchdown game.

[Yachtzee]

When you consider the crowd was probably 90% Mexico fans, this was very reminiscent of the beat down Germany put on Brazil in 2014. Mexico has been playing well as of late, so it's pretty shocking that they got beat this bad.

[Kingspoint]

Mexico is getting straight clowned by Chile.

Alexis Sanchez is incredible.

- - - Updated - - -

5-0!

Wow!

[Kingspoint]

The violence exhibited by Russian hooligans and the unwillingness of the Russian authorities to take serious efforts to stamp out such behavior makes the prospects of a Russian World Cup in 2018 truly frightening. Based on the way Russia is responding to the international ban on their track and field team, I doubt Russia will do anything about it unless FIFA threatens to pull the World Cup. They could easily have the UK, France, or Germany host on short notice, or even have hosting split among multiple countries if necessary. I doubt FIFA will do it seeing as how they turn a blind eye to abuses in Qatar. I honestly think it will take a tragedy for FIFA to take things like fan safety and human rights seriously.

It's shocking if they aren't getting together to discuss how to remove the 2018 Venue from Russia, and where is the outrage by the governing bodies?

[Chip R]

Wowzer.

I hope this leads to the 2018 World Cup being taken away from Russia.

I was thinking about going to the World Cup in Russia, but definitely not now.

They would ask for their money back if that happened.

[Kingspoint]

They would ask for their money back if that happened.

I assume you are referring to a bribe.

[M2]

It's shocking if they aren't getting together to discuss how to remove the 2018 Venue from Russia, and where is the outrage by the governing bodies?

If the reorganized FIFA wants to show it's no longer conducting business as usual, then it needs to take a long, hard look at the impending disaster that is Russia 2018. Giving that nation a winter Olympics and World Cup clearly hasn't served to bring it closer to some form of civility. Politically it's become a rogue state and its soccer fans are radicalizing.

[Bourgeois Zee]

If the reorganized FIFA wants to show it's no longer conducting business as usual, then it needs to take a long, hard look at the impending disaster that is Russia 2018. Giving that nation a winter Olympics and World Cup clearly hasn't served to bring it closer to some form of civility. Politically it's become a rogue state and its soccer fans are radicalizing.

Qatar too.

[M2]

Wales, population 3.1 million 3-0 Russia, population 143.5 million

[BuckeyeRed27]

Wales, population 3.1 million 3-0 Russia, population 143.5 million

Good thing Gareth Bale was born in Cardiff.

[westofyou]

Wow... Croatia wants this one more

[MWM]

Wow... Croatia wants this one more

I never thought that last goal was going to be a goal. Very surprising. Pique got beat badly and looked completely gassed, and really hard to believe Casillas gave up in the inside post like that. It was an improbable goal with Spain defending. Now they've got Italy next round and likely France after that.

Spain looked old down the stretch.

[MWM]

It's looking like a tale of 2 brackets. That loss was huge for Spain. Somehow, Germany, Italy, Spain, France, and England are all on the same side of the bracket. So far on the other side you have Switzerland, Poland, Wales, and Croatia. Wild.

[BuckeyeRed27]

It's looking like a tale of 2 brackets. That loss was huge for Spain. Somehow, Germany, Italy, Spain, France, and England are all on the same side of the bracket. So far on the other side you have Switzerland, Poland, Wales, and Croatia. Wild.

It's also a good possibility of having Portugal on that side too. In fact you'd have England vs. Portugal and Spain vs. Italy as the first games on that side. It's also possible that Iceland still wins that group and would also be on the the Wales, Croatia, etc side.

[M2]

I never thought that last goal was going to be a goal. Very surprising. Pique got beat badly and looked completely gassed, and really hard to believe Casillas gave up in the inside post like that. It was an improbable goal with Spain defending. Now they've got Italy next round and likely France after that.

Spain looked old down the stretch.

De Gea reminds me of Zubizarreta, who was a great Spanish keeper except for when it counted. The way Spain plays, its keeper has 89 minutes of boredom and one minute of panic spread over a few instances. No way Casillas lets in that second goal on the near post and he might have read the entry pass on the first one too. De Gea had a terrible game and Spain's vulnerable with him as the last line of defense.

[M2]

It's also a good possibility of having Portugal on that side too. In fact you'd have England vs. Portugal and Spain vs. Italy as the first games on that side. It's also possible that Iceland still wins that group and would also be on the the Wales, Croatia, etc side.

You know, it would be the most Italy thing in the world to punt this next game so that Belgium takes 1st in the group.

[Betterread]

De Gea reminds me of Zubizarreta, who was a great Spanish keeper except for when it counted. The way Spain plays, its keeper has 89 minutes of boredom and one minute of panic spread over a few instances. No way Casillas lets in that second goal on the near post and he might have read the entry pass on the first one too. De Gea had a terrible game and Spain's vulnerable with him as the last line of defense.

I thought the last line of defense were Pique and Ramos and they did not get it done today. They didn't cover the space In front of goal together, so gaps were there to be exploited. Ramos was beaten for the first goal, his mark just stepped in front of him and Ramos didn't bother to move. He missed 2 or 3 uncontested headers and of course, took a nervous PK that stayed right in the center of the goal.
At least he didn't put his usual boorish behavior on display, so he gets credit for restraint.

Pique was beaten for pace by Perisic on the winning goal.

THis was a good win for Croatia. They rested 3 key guys and won anyway. Some new national team kids got extremely valuable experience and confidence.

[Betterread]

You know, it would be the most Italy thing in the world to punt this next game so that Belgium takes 1st in the group.
This Italian squad is as untalented a group as I can remember. All they have going for them is Conte's tactics and disciplined play. THey can lose to anyone in this tournament.

[M2]

I thought the last line of defense were Pique and Ramos and they did not get it done today. They didn't cover the space In front of goal together, so gaps were there to be exploited. Ramos was beaten for the first goal, his mark just stepped in front of him and Ramos didn't bother to move. He missed 2 or 3 uncontested headers and of course, took a nervous PK that stayed right in the center of the goal.
At least he didn't put his usual boorish behavior on display, so he gets credit for restraint.

Pique was beaten for pace by Perisic on the winning goal.

THis was a good win for Croatia. They rested 3 key guys and won anyway. Some new national team kids got extremely valuable experience and confidence.

Yep, the central defense had a few bad moments. Spain's back two can get isolated, and any two defenders can be exposed when they're isolated. Yet De Gea got beat near post on a shot off the wing. Inexcusable. The defense played well enough to earn a draw in front of a reasonable keeper. De Gea was flat-footed on the 1st goal, 1st half giveaway that Croatia should have scored on, nervy coming off on lines on corners too. He'd have gotten away with all of that, but he had to go and pull a Zubi, giving up a backbreaker in the 87th minute. That's how Spain used to outplay the competition and still manage to lose. In many ways this was a throwback game.

[M2]

The U.S. players are standing still when one of their teammates has the ball.

[M2]

Pulisic coming in for Wondo. Did Wondo touch the ball in the 1st half?

[Yachtzee]

Pulisic coming in for Wondo. Did Wondo touch the ball in the 1st half?

I think Wondo's biggest contribution was tackling Messi, getting the yellow, and then watching Messi put the free kick into the upper 90.

[M2]

DeAndre Yedlin just got caught defending Messi 1-on-1 on a breakaway and stood him up, shutting down the play. Very impressive. Also made a massive run to prevent Messi from getting on a loose ball earlier in the game.

[Stray]

That sucked man. I mean I didn't think we'd win, but that was a thorough butt kicking.

I hoped to at least be competitive.

[RedTeamGo!]

Argentina is to USMNT as USA basketball is to China. Just a different level of talent.

[westofyou]

The Argentina team moved magnificently when they didn't have the ball, they filled up space and moved the action so fast the USA was on their heels the whole game, defending spaces that opened and closed before they could recognize they were even open

[Yachtzee]

The Argentina team moved magnificently when they didn't have the ball, they filled up space and moved the action so fast the USA was on their heels the whole game, defending spaces that opened and closed before they could recognize they were even open

It would have been interesting to see how the US would have matched up with Argentina with Jones, Wood, and Bedoya. But then Argentina is on fire right now, so I'm guessing it still would have been a loss. However, I would hope that Jones' tactical awareness in midfield and Wood's speed up top would have given Argentina something to think about and maybe netted a few goals to keep it close.

Based on what I've seen from both Copa America and the Euros, I don't think there's any team out there playing as well as Argentina right now. I'd say the second best team I've seen has been Chile.

[redrum]

It would have been interesting to see how the US would have matched up with Argentina with Jones, Wood, and Bedoya. But then Argentina is on fire right now, so I'm guessing it still would have been a loss. However, I would hope that Jones' tactical awareness in midfield and Wood's speed up top would have given Argentina something to think about and maybe netted a few goals to keep it close.

Based on what I've seen from both Copa America and the Euros, I don't think there's any team out there playing as well as Argentina right now. I'd say the second best team I've seen has been Chile.

I'm not sure there is a single player on the USMNT that would even make the Argentina squad. Jones, Wood and Bedoya would not have made much of a difference.

[M2]

It would have been interesting to see how the US would have matched up with Argentina with Jones, Wood, and Bedoya. But then Argentina is on fire right now, so I'm guessing it still would have been a loss. However, I would hope that Jones' tactical awareness in midfield and Wood's speed up top would have given Argentina something to think about and maybe netted a few goals to keep it close.

Based on what I've seen from both Copa America and the Euros, I don't think there's any team out there playing as well as Argentina right now. I'd say the second best team I've seen has been Chile.

Don't know that those three would have changed the outcome, but they probably would have made things better. One big change was that Bradley went from playing primarily as the holding CM, allowing Jones to rove, to being the rover with Beckerman playing the holding role. I'm not a fan of Bradley in a more attacking role and, sure enough, he didn't make much happen in this game.

[bucksfan2]

I'm not sure there is a single player on the USMNT that would even make the Argentina squad. Jones, Wood and Bedoya would not have made much of a difference.

Probably not, but................

The first goal never should have happened. Guzan is too good of a GK to allow a goal like that. He came off his line, hesitated, and got caught in no mans land. If he stays put or attacks the ball he gets it with ease.

Messi's goal was an amazing shot, one of those where you just tip your hat. I do think the US got in a funk with an early goal (happens all the time!) and felt the need to press. They were sloppy on their first touch, struggled to gain any kind of space, and created very few chances.

I don't understand why Wondo got the start, he has been put on the national stage many times and has never done anything.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Honestly I thought the US played ok given who they were playing. They weren't going to win unless Argentina messed up and they didn't. I thought they looked timid in the early going and that was frustrating.

The line up was just baffling though. Wondo has to stop being selected for the team. There are 10 players in MLS alone I would take over him, yet they keep running him out there despite him being worthless. We needed a lot more pace to try and compete and he went with the safe "veteran" line up and the out come was predictable. I texted my buddy 5-0 as soon as I saw the line up....I was pretty close.

[RedTeamGo!]

Probably not, but................

The first goal never should have happened. Guzan is too good of a GK to allow a goal like that. He came off his line, hesitated, and got caught in no mans land. If he stays put or attacks the ball he gets it with ease.

Messi's goal was an amazing shot, one of those where you just tip your hat. I do think the US got in a funk with an early goal (happens all the time!) and felt the need to press. They were sloppy on their first touch, struggled to gain any kind of space, and created very few chances.

I don't understand why Wondo got the start, he has been put on the national stage many times and has never done anything.

I have never understood the love for Guzan. I have watched him many times and he seems really mediocre to me. For both club and country.

[redrum]

Don't know that those three would have changed the outcome, but they probably would have made things better. One big change was that Bradley went from playing primarily as the holding CM, allowing Jones to rove, to being the rover with Beckerman playing the holding role. I'm not a fan of Bradley in a more attacking role and, sure enough, he didn't make much happen in this game.

Not a fan of Bradley all around (other than taking set pieces), but I agree he is better suited for the holding role. He has a tendency to be deliberate and it shows against tempo teams. Argentina ate him alive. Overall I thought his performance was poor.

Wondo should have never seen the pitch, but since the US rarely played in their offensive end I don't anyone on the roster would have been much more effective. I would have preferred Pulsic for the entire match just for the experience alone.

Did anyone else think Fabian Johnson simply looked lost or was it just me?

[redrum]

I have never understood the love for Guzan. I have watched him many times and he seems really mediocre to me. For both club and country.

I thought everyone in Cleveland was at the Cav's parade. What gives?

[westofyou]

Hungary vs. Portugal is a crazy back n forth game, the 2nd goal for both squads was gorgeous

[RedTeamGo!]

I thought everyone in Cleveland was at the Cav's parade. What gives?

No thanks

[M2]

Iceland wins and goes through. Wow.

[Caveat Emperor]

Don't know that those three would have changed the outcome, but they probably would have made things better. One big change was that Bradley went from playing primarily as the holding CM, allowing Jones to rove, to being the rover with Beckerman playing the holding role. I'm not a fan of Bradley in a more attacking role and, sure enough, he didn't make much happen in this game.

While I think it's hard to draw conclusions from a match where a team is so thoroughly out-classed at every place on the pitch, I have to say that it's been a long time since I watched Micheal Bradley play and thought anything other than "He's having a rough game."

His touches have been poor, he's lacked anything approaching vision or creativity, and he's incredibly turnover prone.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Iceland wins and goes through. Wow.

Iceland vs. England in the next round.

Hungary wins the group, but might get Belgium as their prize.

[Yachtzee]

I'm not sure there is a single player on the USMNT that would even make the Argentina squad. Jones, Wood and Bedoya would not have made much of a difference.

Considering they have guys like Kun Aguero and Angel Di Maria on the bench, there are plenty of countries whose players wouldn't make the Argentina squad. Argentina is stacked right now. There aren't many national teams that have players of that caliber on their bench.

Well, if there is a bright side, we may have given up 4 against Argentina, but Mexico gave up 7 against Chile.

[Yachtzee]

I thought everyone in Cleveland was at the Cav's parade. What gives?

I have plenty of friends downtown, but even though I have the day off, I'm at home flipping between the parade and Euro 2016. Too much to do with kids to pick up and drop off from camps and, quite frankly, I have no desire to spend my entire day downtown. People getting there at 8 am had to park and walk for miles to get to the parade and celebration on Mall B. I can't imagine people are getting out of there until well into the evening.

[bucksfan2]

While I think it's hard to draw conclusions from a match where a team is so thoroughly out-classed at every place on the pitch, I have to say that it's been a long time since I watched Micheal Bradley play and thought anything other than "He's having a rough game."

His touches have been poor, he's lacked anything approaching vision or creativity, and he's incredibly turnover prone.

Bradley hasn't been the same since he left Serie A and went to the MLS. I don't know if he was overhyped at the time, but I thought Bradley would give them a quality midfielder for number of years going forward. I did see a rumor that a Serie A team was looking at Bradley this transfer season, maybe he can rekindle some of his game there.

[RedTeamGo!]

I have plenty of friends downtown, but even though I have the day off, I'm at home flipping between the parade and Euro 2016. Too much to do with kids to pick up and drop off from camps and, quite frankly, I have no desire to spend my entire day downtown. People getting there at 8 am had to park and walk for miles to get to the parade and celebration on Mall B. I can't imagine people are getting out of there until well into the evening.

I am watching it on TV, this is insanity.

Awesome experience I am sure, but my god, these people are not going anywhere any time soon.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Bradley hasn't been the same since he left Serie A and went to the MLS. I don't know if he was overhyped at the time, but I thought Bradley would give them a quality midfielder for number of years going forward. I did see a rumor that a Serie A team was looking at Bradley this transfer season, maybe he can rekindle some of his game there.

I actually wonder if playing with Giovinco is hurting him.

[bucksfan2]

I actually wonder if playing with Giovinco is hurting him.

I guess my main issue right now is the level of play in the MLS. Don't get me wrong, it has a nice quality of play, but it isn't a the level of the top tier European leagues. I think there is a difference in the quality of play and quality of training that goes on between the leagues. One thing I have noticed with the USMNT team is they tend to give up a goal, very early in games, and are often sloppy with their touches. Granted it is difficult to get a good gauge against a team like Argentina with the best player on the planet as well as a cast full of stars. But last night was tough to watch at times, the giveaways were poor, balls were misplayed, balls were headed out instead of towards another player.

It is pretty distinct when you watch the US players who are playing in Europe, the tend to be more measured, better with their first touches, better accustomed to deal with the speed of attack. If you are a defender in the MLS and you have a bad give away or a bad touch, you are dealing with the likes of Wondo, in Europe, you are dealing with a world class striker. From a personal perspective I wish the best players would cut their teeth in Europe and then come to the MLS when their game has lost a step, similar to what Dempsey did. The last think you want to see is a player in his prime, we can look at Bradley, Diskerud, and Altidore, guys with promising futures who jumped to the MLS in their early prime.

[M2]

Irish fans know how to take over a stadium.

[thatcoolguy_22]

Is there a better example of a paper tiger than Portugal soccer? Couldn't make it out of a group with US and Ghana in the World Cup. Couldn't make it out of a group with Austria/Hungary/Iceland in the Euros.

I vacationed in Iceland last summer, and I'm stoked for them. Great people and the pickup soccer I played with some locals was awesome.

[redrum]

I guess my main issue right now is the level of play in the MLS. Don't get me wrong, it has a nice quality of play, but it isn't a the level of the top tier European leagues. I think there is a difference in the quality of play and quality of training that goes on between the leagues. One thing I have noticed with the USMNT team is they tend to give up a goal, very early in games, and are often sloppy with their touches. Granted it is difficult to get a good gauge against a team like Argentina with the best player on the planet as well as a cast full of stars. But last night was tough to watch at times, the giveaways were poor, balls were misplayed, balls were headed out instead of towards another player.

It is pretty distinct when you watch the US players who are playing in Europe, the tend to be more measured, better with their first touches, better accustomed to deal with the speed of attack. If you are a defender in the MLS and you have a bad give away or a bad touch, you are dealing with the likes of Wondo, in Europe, you are dealing with a world class striker. From a personal perspective I wish the best players would cut their teeth in Europe and then come to the MLS when their game has lost a step, similar to what Dempsey did. The last think you want to see is a player in his prime, we can look at Bradley, Diskerud, and Altidore, guys with promising futures who jumped to the MLS in their early prime.

It all goes back to training/competition at the youth level. Until there are real youth academies in the United States whose primary goal is to develop talent as opposed to making money, the US will not struggle to produce world class players. There is a reason that Pulsic joined the Dortmund Academy at 16 instead of staying in the US.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Is there a better example of a paper tiger than Portugal soccer? Couldn't make it out of a group with US and Ghana in the World Cup. Couldn't make it out of a group with Austria/Hungary/Iceland in the Euros.

I vacationed in Iceland last summer, and I'm stoked for them. Great people and the pickup soccer I played with some locals was awesome.

To be fair they did get out of the group, but your point is still valid.

[BuckeyeRed27]

It all goes back to training/competition at the youth level. Until there are real youth academies in the United States whose primary goal is to develop talent as opposed to making money, the US will not struggle to produce world class players. There is a reason that Pulsic joined the Dortmund Academy at 16 instead of staying in the US.

This is 100% true. I don't really buy into the level of play/training argument with MLS. There are like 10-15 teams in the world that are truly elite and there is some real benefit from playing/training on those teams. After that MLS is certainly on par in terms of coaching, facilities, training and talent as that next tier of teams.

This game shouldn't be some indictment on the US soccer team or on MLS. Argentina is awesome and most of their players play for one of those 10-15 teams (including their bench). It would be nice to play more competitive games like this instead of the usual CONCACAF stuff.

[M2]

Is there a better example of a paper tiger than Portugal soccer? Couldn't make it out of a group with US and Ghana in the World Cup. Couldn't make it out of a group with Austria/Hungary/Iceland in the Euros.

Portugal did make it out of the group. Finished 3rd, but made it to the knockout rounds (and the weaker side of the bracket). To be fair, it's not that stacked a team. Only Ronaldo and Pepe play for a major team outside of Portugal (unless you want to consider Monaco, Besiktas and Fenerbahce major). Portugal has been in decline and riding Ronaldo for the better part of the past decade. There's some hope in the current pack of young midfielders, but the defense is shaky and Ronaldo's the only reliable goal scorer in sight.

[dabvu2498]

I care a lot about sports. A lot. More than I should. Sometimes to my own detriment. I got nothing on this guy: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/06/22/icelandic-commentary-on-winning-goal-is-simply-brilliant/?X

[tomnuetten]

This is 100% true. I don't really buy into the level of play/training argument with MLS. There are like 10-15 teams in the world that are truly elite and there is some real benefit from playing/training on those teams. After that MLS is certainly on par in terms of coaching, facilities, training and talent as that next tier of teams.


I´d argue that ;)


Ireland advanced :thumbup:

I hope they´ll take revenge for henry´s hand goal that shouldn´t have counted (Franced got to the World Cup while Ireland didn´t because of this hand goal)...

Lots of big names playing against each others in the quarterfinals (if thehy advance obviously)

[Bourgeois Zee]

One possible benefit of the Brexit might be that English Premier and Championship players (and others) will decide to come to America.

[tomnuetten]

One possible benefit of the Brexit might be that English Premier and Championship players (and others) will decide to come to America.

why should they?

[Yachtzee]

why should they?

Work visa issues. The FA and the UK have convoluted rules do determine whether a player can get a work visa based on international ranking of their home country and service time with the national team. Many players in the Premier League and Championship have been exempt from those visa requirements because of the UK's membership in the EU. With the UK leaving the EU, those players will now need to meet the work visa requirements or else the UK and FA will have to choose whether to grandfather those players in or loosen the work visa rules.

I don't know if it will result in an exodus of players from the EPL and Championship, but going forward there will be more obstacles to English team getting international talent. That won't mean all those players having visa issues will come to MLS. The best players will still chose top European leagues. But it may lead to more of the younger players who don't yet have national team service time to choose MLS as an opportunity to make a name for themselves rather than sitting on the shelf waiting for visa issues to be resolved in order to play for an EPL team at the bottom half of the table or a Championship side hoping to get promoted.

[westofyou]

Cynical football in this final,


No Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[M2]

Want to make a point here about the press narrative. Leo Messi had a mediocre final, scored no goals and didn't come particularly close, got booked for diving, missed a penalty, sat on the bench by himself immediately after the game rather than stand out on the field with his team (he's the captain) and he immediately ripped off his runner up medal. I actually don't think he should be knocked for any of that, people are human, but I can tell you how all of that would be interpreted if Cristiano Ronaldo did it.

The soccer media has this bizarre lens through which it filters Messi and Ronaldo. Messi is the good one. Ronaldo is the bad one. Yes, Ronaldo gets petulant at times. Yet he also donates more money to charity than any other athlete on the planet and supposedly works harder on the training ground than anyone. Messi came to this Copa America directly from his tax evasion trial and he owes his career to human growth hormones (and you can make a case that's all right, but you can also make a case it isn't). Neither is the good one. Neither is the bad one. Neither is the better player. They're both amazing and completely different. We're lucky we get to see them play so often. Yet the narrative around them is getting tiresome. Neither fits into the boxes we've created for them.

[Chip R]

Messi says he;s played his last game for Argentina.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/soccer-fc-yahoo/messi-retires-from-argentina-national-team-055409231.html

[M2]

Messi says he;s played his last game for Argentina.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/soccer-fc-yahoo/messi-retires-from-argentina-national-team-055409231.html

Let's see if that sticks. I suspect it won't.

[Chip R]

Let's see if that sticks. I suspect it won't.

Perhaps but 3 others on the team are planning to retire and 4 others are considering their futures as well.

http://www.espnfc.com/copa-america/story/2902891/lionel-messi-flags-potential-argentina-retirement-after-penalty-loss-to-chile

[BuckeyeRed27]

Messi says he;s played his last game for Argentina.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/soccer-fc-yahoo/messi-retires-from-argentina-national-team-055409231.html

What a freaking baby. I doubt he actually sticks to that, but talk about a loss of respect moment.

Can you imagine how hard we would have killed Lebron or Peyton Manning for something like this.

[MWM]

Man, Spain looks lethargic....or just old. I thought they had their old magic back, but they look more like 2014 WC Spain than 2012 Euro Spain. the Spain of 4 years ago looked about as close to unbeatable as a national team can get.

[M2]

Man, Spain looks lethargic....or just old. I thought they had their old magic back, but they look more like 2014 WC Spain than 2012 Euro Spain. the Spain of 4 years ago looked about as close to unbeatable as a national team can get.

Don't know why they're playing Fabregas and Silva. Thiago and Koke might be able to make a difference here. Wish they had brought Energizer bunnies like Isco and Saul

[M2]

World Cup 2014 flashback on Italy's 2nd goal. I'm watching the replay and wondering "Where's Pique?"

[M2]

What a freaking baby. I doubt he actually sticks to that, but talk about a loss of respect moment.

Can you imagine how hard we would have killed Lebron or Peyton Manning for something like this.

In fairness, South Americans who play their club football in Europe have the most brutal game and travel schedule in the world. CONMEBOL World Cup qualifying is an 18-game meat grinder. Add in league games, league cups and Champions League in Europe and constant transatlantic flights and there comes a point where you just can't do it all.

[BuckeyeRed27]

In fairness, South Americans who play their club football in Europe have the most brutal game and travel schedule in the world. CONMEBOL World Cup qualifying is an 18-game meat grinder. Add in league games, league cups and Champions League in Europe and constant transatlantic flights and there comes a point where you just can't do it all.

Yeah and that's fine if you're Aguero or Tevez or something. Messi is the best player in the game and hasn't won a trophy for his country. He also didn't complain about how hard the travel was, he talked about how hard it was losing and how he gave his best and just hasn't gotten it done.

[M2]

Yeah and that's fine if you're Aguero or Tevez or something. Messi is the best player in the game and hasn't won a trophy for his country. He also didn't complain about how hard the travel was, he talked about how hard it was losing and how he gave his best and just hasn't gotten it done.

He was physically and emotionally exhausted when he said that. He's only going to offer up so much lucidity in that condition. My guess is he'll change his mind or be convinced to take one more stab at the World Cup. Yet jetting across the Atlantic to maintain a brutal schedule has it limits. I'm taking Messi's comments as an admission that he's simply not able to give Argentina his best because he's drained by the time he gets to the end of a tournament.

[IslandRed]

Yeah and that's fine if you're Aguero or Tevez or something. Messi is the best player in the game and hasn't won a trophy for his country.

Which is undoubtedly part of the problem -- his country reminds him of that incessantly, whether or not the loss in question was actually his fault. Eventually a guy gets tired of being the scapegoat. I imagine Ronaldo is also tired of every Portugal loss being his fault no matter what he does.

Having said that, he didn't play a very good game.

But having said that, Argentina has now played three straight major finals all the way through extra time -- 360 minutes -- without scoring. Considering they also have Aguero, Di Maria, Huguain, etc. etc., there's something wrong there besides Messi. It's still a team sport, and the way opposing defenses focus on Messi, you'd think someone else would be able to do something.

[bucksfan2]

Which is undoubtedly part of the problem -- his country reminds him of that incessantly, whether or not the loss in question was actually his fault. Eventually a guy gets tired of being the scapegoat. I imagine Ronaldo is also tired of every Portugal loss being his fault no matter what he does.

Having said that, he didn't play a very good game.

But having said that, Argentina has now played three straight major finals all the way through extra time -- 360 minutes -- without scoring. Considering they also have Aguero, Di Maria, Huguain, etc. etc., there's something wrong there besides Messi. It's still a team sport, and the way opposing defenses focus on Messi, you'd think someone else would be able to do something.

When was the last time you watched a final and said "great game?" The finals of these major tournaments are often pretty vanilla, teams play not to lose instead of to win. They hardly risk pushing forward to get a goal instead they lay back and hope to get a counter or two. Its a shame because Messi in space is fun to watch, but when you sit back and play defense, you don't get that.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Which is undoubtedly part of the problem -- his country reminds him of that incessantly, whether or not the loss in question was actually his fault. Eventually a guy gets tired of being the scapegoat. I imagine Ronaldo is also tired of every Portugal loss being his fault no matter what he does.

Having said that, he didn't play a very good game.

But having said that, Argentina has now played three straight major finals all the way through extra time -- 360 minutes -- without scoring. Considering they also have Aguero, Di Maria, Huguain, etc. etc., there's something wrong there besides Messi. It's still a team sport, and the way opposing defenses focus on Messi, you'd think someone else would be able to do something.

If you are not only the best player on your team, but probably the planet, you get to be the scapegoat. That is true in any sport in any country and he needs to deal with it. There is an easy way to get everyone to shut up and that's to win. Maybe he should give Lebron a call on how to deal with it.

Agreed on the second part, you can't have that much talent and not score in big games every single time.

[BuckeyeRed27]

ICELAND! What a great story. Be afraid France, be very afraid.

Also Roy Hodgson has resigned as England manager.

[tomnuetten]

If you are not only the best player on your team, but probably the planet, you get to be the scapegoat. That is true in any sport in any country and he needs to deal with it. There is an easy way to get everyone to shut up and that's to win. Maybe he should give Lebron a call on how to deal with it.

Agreed on the second part, you can't have that much talent and not score in big games every single time.

its a TEAM game. If Higuain is able to score a goal in one of these finals (and he had a lot of chances) nobody is talking about Messi not being able to win a title with/for Argentina.

Argentina got to a major tournament final 3 times in 3 years and they were at least as good in those games as the opponents in every single final. They got in extra time in every final, they lost twice in penalty shootout (Messi missed once). I´ll give Argentina a lot of credit for reaching those finals and playing the way they did. At the end they were unlucky.

If Aguero goes down in overtime instead of trying to reach the ball they´ll get a penalty most likely. The ref could have sent another Chile player off. Higuain should have scored a goal (all alone in front of Bravo) ... If any of those things happen Messi has a title and is the hero.

It is a team game and no single player (no mather how good he is) can win a soccer/football tournament by himself => I hate media that only talks about a single player after a win (without mentioning the others who had a major impact) and I hate even more to blame a single player for a loss...

Maradona and some media members are really crazy regarding Messi and I don´t blame him that with all the effort he put in to win a title with the team ( missing time with his family 3 years in a row) that he decided to step down... I don´t blame him at all and according to german newspapers he won´t be the only one ...

german news say that Aguero and Mascherano will definetly step down, while Higuain, Lavezzi, Di Maria, Biglia are likely to do the same.

Perhaps they´ll say it to make a statement towards the media or something happend (again) with the association... I wouldn´t be to surprised to see them play for argentina (messi included) soon again though...

[thatcoolguy_22]

ICELAND!!!! They looked like the better squad for most of the match as well. They had very close and real opportunities that Hart stuffed.

As far as Messi/retirement goes, I believe it has a lot to do with the AFA scandal going on. Apparently their president has been skimming the broadcast money for a few years.

[MWM]

France adding salt to England's wound against Iceland.

[SunDeck]

He's not as fast as he once was and he doesn't have the ability to leave players' jockstraps in his wake any more, but Ronaldo in the air, is there anything in the game more beautiful than that?

[Chip R]

Are these going to be the same teams that are going to participate in the Olympics?

[BuckeyeRed27]

Are these going to be the same teams that are going to participate in the Olympics?

No Olympic soccer is U23 and you can add up to 3 non U23 members.

[Chip R]

No Olympic soccer is U23 and you can add up to 3 non U23 members.

OK, thanks.

[SunDeck]

France advancing to the finals is a nice story. I think they'll beat Portugal. Germany still handles the ball better than any club in the world, but they looked like they've lost the killer instincts around the goal that they had in Brazil. Oh, and after watching the game today I can say Taylor Twellman adds nothing to a soccer broadcast.

[M2]

France advancing to the finals is a nice story. I think they'll beat Portugal. Germany still handles the ball better than any club in the world, but they looked like they've lost the killer instincts around the goal that they had in Brazil. Oh, and after watching the game today I can say Taylor Twellman adds nothing to a soccer broadcast.

I like Twellman on commentary. He's no Ray Hudson, but there's only one of those.

[M2]

The field for the final has been invaded by a plague of moths. Could be a gooey game.

[SunDeck]

I was uber bummed to see Ronaldo go down because I like to watch him play, yet not overly surprised that Portugal held the game to 0-0 through regulation. That is what they do, play defense, then hope he'll manufacture a goal for them. What did surprise me was that they found a way rise to the overtime challenge without him. Maybe it's the beginning of a new era for them.

France had enough chances in regulation to win it.

[SunDeck]

I like Twellman on commentary. He's no Ray Hudson, but there's only one of those.

I'd leave it on mute if it were Hudson. What bothers me about Twellman is his emphasis on intangibles. For instance, he loves to talk about how defenders need to have some sixth sense about passes and runs, which I just don't agree with. Knowing what a striker will do is the same in soccer as it is in any sport; watch the tapes, know your opponent.

[M2]

I was uber bummed to see Ronaldo go down because I like to watch him play, yet not overly surprised that Portugal held the game to 0-0 through regulation. That is what they do, play defense, then hope he'll manufacture a goal for them. What did surprise me was that they found a way rise to the overtime challenge without him. Maybe it's the beginning of a new era for them.

France had enough chances in regulation to win it.

Pepe played a monster game. Rui Patricio was a wall as well. FWIW, I don't think Portugal just played defense. It was just that they played stern defense and their offense consistently misfired in the final third. I thought it was clumsy football more than anti-football.

Renato Sanches, Joao Mario, William Carvalho, Cedric, Raphael Guerreiro and Adrien Silva (older than the rest, but fairly new to the national side) definitely mark a new generation. My guess is they'll get better in the attacking third in future tournaments. What they delivered in Euro 2016 was willingness and energy.