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reds44
05-30-2017, 07:10 PM
Cozy and Joey go back to back


baaaaaack to baaaaaack

votto14
05-30-2017, 07:10 PM
Amazing!!!

WrongVerb
05-30-2017, 07:12 PM
:jump::rockband::party::beerme:

Big Klu
05-30-2017, 07:15 PM
Congratulations to Joey Votto, who has passed Jay Bruce for seventh place on the Reds all-time home run list!


Updated Reds HR list (players in italics are active):

Reds 100-Home Run Club
1. Johnny Bench - 389
2. Frank Robinson - 324
3. Tony Perez - 287
4. Adam Dunn - 270
5. Ted Kluszewski - 251
6. George Foster - 244
7. Joey Votto - 234
8. Jay Bruce - 233
9. Ken Griffey, Jr. - 210
10. Eric Davis - 203
11. Barry Larkin - 198
12. Brandon Phillips - 191
13. Vada Pinson - 186
14. Wally Post - 172
15. Gus Bell - 160
16. Joe Morgan - 152
16. Pete Rose - 152
18. Lee May - 147
19. Dan Driessen - 133
20. Reggie Sanders - 125
21. Ernie Lombardi - 120
22. Sean Casey - 118
23. Frank McCormick - 110
24. Todd Frazier - 108
25. Dave Parker - 107
26. Chris Sabo - 104
27. Dave Concepcion - 101

votto14
05-30-2017, 07:16 PM
Good inning now wojo needs a great game. If he can give us 6 I'll be happy.

Wolves198921
05-30-2017, 07:18 PM
Not sure how the rookie will do. Offense off to a good start.

reds44
05-30-2017, 07:18 PM
Good inning now wojo needs a great game. If he can give us 6 I'll be happy.

I'll take 5 and 3 every night if we can get it from these idiots

votto14
05-30-2017, 07:22 PM
Wow what a catch!!!!

Jordan
05-30-2017, 07:22 PM
Schebler Nation

Tom Servo
05-30-2017, 07:22 PM
Great play Scheb!

Kc61
05-30-2017, 07:23 PM
Great catch by Schebler on that last play. Fine defensive outfield these days for the Reds.

Tom Servo
05-30-2017, 07:23 PM
I'll take 5 and 3 every night if we can get it from these jamokes

Fixed it for ya

Jordan
05-30-2017, 07:24 PM
Congratulations to Joey Votto, who has passed Jay Bruce for seventh place on the Reds all-time home run list!


Updated Reds HR list (players in italics are active):

Reds 100-Home Run Club
1. Johnny Bench - 389
2. Frank Robinson - 324
3. Tony Perez - 287
4. Adam Dunn - 270
5. Ted Kluszewski - 251
6. George Foster - 244
7. Joey Votto - 234
8. Jay Bruce - 233
9. Ken Griffey, Jr. - 210
10. Eric Davis - 203
11. Barry Larkin - 198
12. Brandon Phillips - 191
13. Vada Pinson - 186
14. Wally Post - 172
15. Gus Bell - 160
16. Joe Morgan - 152
16. Pete Rose - 152
18. Lee May - 147
19. Dan Driessen - 133
20. Reggie Sanders - 125
21. Ernie Lombardi - 120
22. Sean Casey - 118
23. Frank McCormick - 110
24. Todd Frazier - 108
25. Dave Parker - 107
26. Chris Sabo - 104
27. Dave Concepcion - 101

Votto will end up second on this list before it's all said and done IMO.

WrongVerb
05-30-2017, 07:31 PM
Why are they showing these strange highlights from a Reds-Blue Jays game that I don't believe ever happened? I mean *I* certainly have no recollection of it.

OnBaseMachine
05-30-2017, 07:47 PM
Crappy luck there for Votto. Should have been ball four but the ball somehow managed to hit his bat. Next pitch, he grounded out.

votto14
05-30-2017, 07:50 PM
Bases juiced.

votto14
05-30-2017, 07:53 PM
Wasted chance there.

OnBaseMachine
05-30-2017, 07:54 PM
That was a huge missed opportunity. Happ has looked awful, and yet escaped with only two runs allowed.

BABIP continues to frown upon Schebler. He hits the ball hard but has very little to show for it other than the 15 HR.

Tom Servo
05-30-2017, 07:54 PM
Dam BABIP gods hate Schebler

votto14
05-30-2017, 07:55 PM
That ball was smoked too. Just tough luck.

OnBaseMachine
05-30-2017, 07:56 PM
Exit velocity on Schebler's out? 109 MPH.

Wolves198921
05-30-2017, 07:57 PM
Would have been nice to get a run or two from bases loaded

votto14
05-30-2017, 07:59 PM
Schebler with a nice grab!

votto14
05-30-2017, 08:01 PM
Good job wojo! Nice inning!

Jordan
05-30-2017, 08:01 PM
Doesn't even look like he's getting lucky. Wojo just looks good.

Course, I've had a couple or 3 beers, so who knows.

Tom Servo
05-30-2017, 08:01 PM
Not half bad from Wojo so far through 3, no walks is the big key.

Jordan
05-30-2017, 08:02 PM
Exit velocity on Schebler's out? 109 MPH.

Daaaaaaaaaaamn.

_Sir_Charles_
05-30-2017, 08:10 PM
Bad k's by Kivlehan and Peraza. Swinging at garbage. :( If that's the worst comment I can make...we're doing fine. :thumbup:

Wolves198921
05-30-2017, 08:10 PM
What a great role model Harper is, not.....

_Sir_Charles_
05-30-2017, 08:12 PM
25 strikes on 38 pitches. That'll work kid.

Spoke too soon. Upper deck dinger by Donaldson. 2-2

votto14
05-30-2017, 08:12 PM
What a great role model Harper is, not.....



A lot of that wasn't Harper's fault. Strickland caused a lot of that.

Tony Cloninger
05-30-2017, 08:12 PM
Good work so far from eye chart. Can he make it past 5 innings which is like going 8 innings for most other teams compared to this one.

votto14
05-30-2017, 08:12 PM
Tie game!

Wolves198921
05-30-2017, 08:13 PM
Yep, Toronto is going to rally this inning. Made it to four tonight so progress

Kc61
05-30-2017, 08:13 PM
That was a huge missed opportunity. Happ has looked awful, and yet escaped with only two runs allowed.

BABIP continues to frown upon Schebler. He hits the ball hard but has very little to show for it other than the 15 HR.

BABIP usually follows line drive rate. Schebler needs to hit more line drives, 15% rate is very low.

He's getting closer, I think, hit a few grounder smashes the last two nights. But that's a big part of his BABIP issue.

membengal
05-30-2017, 08:13 PM
Well, if you are going to give one up, make it memorable.


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Jordan
05-30-2017, 08:13 PM
First pitch to Donaldson was definitely a strike, but was called a ball.

Then Donaldson cracks a 2-run HR later in the AB.

Where did that first pitch miss?

Tom Servo
05-30-2017, 08:13 PM
Josh Donaldson is pretty good.

_Sir_Charles_
05-30-2017, 08:14 PM
Oh my. 3-2 bluebirds.

Bautista. When this club connects...it goes a long way.

membengal
05-30-2017, 08:14 PM
Oh my.


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Jordan
05-30-2017, 08:14 PM
3-2 Jays

votto14
05-30-2017, 08:14 PM
Blue jays lead 3-2

OnBaseMachine
05-30-2017, 08:14 PM
Embarrassing.

membengal
05-30-2017, 08:14 PM
Well, might as well make each one memorable?


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Jordan
05-30-2017, 08:14 PM
#2 pick again next year? Who's with me?

[Kidding. I think.]

_Sir_Charles_
05-30-2017, 08:15 PM
Embarrassing.

?

Was it embarrassing when it happened to JA happ in the first?

LOL. Nearly 3 in a row. Great snag by Schebler

Tony Cloninger
05-30-2017, 08:15 PM
What a great role model Harper is, not.....

And Strickland is what? My 17 year old niece has more maturity than that D Bag.

votto14
05-30-2017, 08:15 PM
If we had any starting pitching we could be in first place. It's really embarrassing.

OnBaseMachine
05-30-2017, 08:16 PM
?

Was it embarrassing when it happened to JA happ in the first?

The Reds starting staff is embarrassing. I'm longing for early 2000's starting staff.

Tom Servo
05-30-2017, 08:16 PM
Embarrassing.
Home runs to Josh Donaldson and Jose Bautista are embarrassing?

Kc61
05-30-2017, 08:16 PM
At least the Reds are in this one.

Wolves198921
05-30-2017, 08:17 PM
Damn we just need one more inning from this guy. I don't think the Reds will score anymore tonight but it would be nice to keep it close.

votto14
05-30-2017, 08:18 PM
Home runs to Josh Donaldson and Jose Bautista are embarrassing?

It is when your starting pitching is embarrassing every night. Quit wearing the reds kool aid glasses.

Kc61
05-30-2017, 08:18 PM
Damn we just need one more inning from this guy. I don't think the Reds will score anymore tonight but it would be nice to keep it close.

So I should turn the game off?

_Sir_Charles_
05-30-2017, 08:18 PM
The Reds starting staff is embarrassing. I'm longing for early 2000's starting staff.

Gotcha. Kinda hard to have an effective staff when it's all on the DL though. Considering how patched together the starting staff is...it's flat out amazing our record is as good as it is. Bodes well for the future IMO.

OnBaseMachine
05-30-2017, 08:18 PM
Home runs to Josh Donaldson and Jose Bautista are embarrassing?

Having a team ERA of 6.00 from the starting staff is embarrassing.

Tom Servo
05-30-2017, 08:19 PM
It is when your starting pitching is embarrassing every night. Quit wearing the reds cool aid glasses.
My dude, I honestly don't care what you think about me.

Tony Cloninger
05-30-2017, 08:19 PM
#2 pick again next year? Who's with me?

[Kidding. I think.]

Come on Chuckie! Start a thread about it?

membengal
05-30-2017, 08:19 PM
I'm still laughing over Welsh with an all-time silver lining comment - "the good news with back to back homers is the second one is solo."

Hard to argue against that, Chris.


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_Sir_Charles_
05-30-2017, 08:20 PM
Wow. Those are getting out awfully fast.

I mean as soon as it touches the bat it's clearly a dinger. 4-2 Jays

Griffey012
05-30-2017, 08:20 PM
Get the ball down son.

votto14
05-30-2017, 08:20 PM
My dude, I honestly don't care what you think about me.

So you're happy with this mess? It's a joke man.

Wolves198921
05-30-2017, 08:21 PM
Does anyone remember what it's like to watch a pitching staff that didn't give up this many homeruns game after game after game

Griffey012
05-30-2017, 08:21 PM
Is someone gonna go talk to him?

votto14
05-30-2017, 08:22 PM
Get this kid out Jesus Christ

Tom Servo
05-30-2017, 08:22 PM
Come on Chuckie! Start a thread about it?
lol he forgot the subtlety

Wolves198921
05-30-2017, 08:22 PM
The blue jays are known for bench clearing braws so need to be careful, they are teenage girls.

Cyclone792
05-30-2017, 08:22 PM
You know, I'd be very happy to sign a league minimum contract myself if the Reds are looking for a guy who's capable of throwing meatballs down the middle of the plate for batting practice style home runs and/or hitting batters ala Wojo.

Tony Cloninger
05-30-2017, 08:22 PM
Gotcha. Kinda hard to have an effective staff when it's all on the DL though. Considering how patched together the starting staff is...it's flat out amazing our record is as good as it is. Bodes well for the future IMO.

How does it bode well for the future if the future is showing to be part of the problem? Besides Finnegan coming back I have very little hope that Bailey will give them anything while Descalfani might not even come back at all.

OnBaseMachine
05-30-2017, 08:22 PM
That was intentional. If Votto gets drilled, Wojo should be released immediately after the game.

Tom Servo
05-30-2017, 08:23 PM
So you're happy with this mess? It's a joke man.
Than do something else. Go for a run. I know it's bad, I'm not gonna be a miserable, self-pitying SOB about it.

Roy Tucker
05-30-2017, 08:24 PM
It is when your starting pitching is embarrassing every night. Quit wearing the reds kool aid glasses.

I think some metaphors got mixed.

redhawkfish
05-30-2017, 08:24 PM
That was intentional. If Votto gets drilled, Wojo should be released immediately after the game.

Yep!

Kc61
05-30-2017, 08:24 PM
You know, the Reds could have Bob Gibson.

And it would be Gibson, Feldman, Arroyo, Adleman and Bonilla. I'm leaving out Woj because I can't spell his full name.

They have a lot of work to do on the rotation.

Griffey012
05-30-2017, 08:25 PM
That was intentional. If Votto gets drilled, Wojo should be released immediately after the game.

I highly doubt a guy in his 3rd appearance with the reds is going to intentionally hit Tulo on an 0-1 pitch. His control has been all over this inning. Sometimes pitchers hit guys, even after a home run.

Tom Servo
05-30-2017, 08:26 PM
Well hey, 3 strikeouts and 0 walks through 4 innings anyway lol

membengal
05-30-2017, 08:27 PM
That was a hit the bull win a steak kinda inning. Only more probably hit the moose win some poutine given the locale.


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Big Klu
05-30-2017, 08:27 PM
I think some metaphors got mixed.

Just like Batman and Tonto.

votto14
05-30-2017, 08:27 PM
It's every night with this group! I'm so sick of it as a fan. We could be in first or Be a game out but no. We let these starting pitchers get drilled every night. I know I let my frustrations out but some of you don't see it. Y'all are just accepting this garbage and happy with it.

_Sir_Charles_
05-30-2017, 08:29 PM
How does it bode well for the future if the future is showing to be part of the problem? Besides Finnegan coming back I have very little hope that Bailey will give them anything while Descalfani might not even come back at all.

I'm saying it bodes well once the regular starters return to good health. The bullpen, defense and offense are VERY good. Get even average starting pitching and this team can contend. No, I'm not saying this year. I don't expect Disco or Homer to be like they were before injuries until next year.

The "future" is not showing to be part of the problem. Bronson, Adelman, Feldman, Wojo and Bonilla are NOT part of the "future". The "future" is all on the DL.

- - - Updated - - -

:jump: COZY

Tracy Jones
05-30-2017, 08:29 PM
It's every night with this group! I'm so sick of it as a fan. We could be in first or Be a game out but no. We let these starting pitchers get drilled every night. I know I let my frustrations out but some of you don't see it. Y'all are just accepting this garbage and happy with it.

Not me. I'm writing a terse letter to Dick Williams and my congressman about it.

Reds Fanatic
05-30-2017, 08:29 PM
2nd homer tonight for Cozart

OnBaseMachine
05-30-2017, 08:29 PM
Cozart! Wow.

Raisor
05-30-2017, 08:30 PM
It's every night with this group! I'm so sick of it as a fan. We could be in first or Be a game out but no. We let these starting pitchers get drilled every night. I know I let my frustrations out but some of you don't see it. Y'all are just accepting this garbage and happy with it.

Personally I understand what a rebuild is.

You don't seem to.

Tony Cloninger
05-30-2017, 08:30 PM
I blame the offense. They clearly need to do a better job of outscoring these guys.

PutPeteIn
05-30-2017, 08:30 PM
Cozart just adopted me, he's my Daddy!

Tom Servo
05-30-2017, 08:30 PM
Ya'll need to stop sleeping on my Daniel Murphy theory :dunno:

RedsfaninMT
05-30-2017, 08:30 PM
It's every night with this group! I'm so sick of it as a fan. We could be in first or Be a game out but no. We let these starting pitchers get drilled every night. I know I let my frustrations out but some of you don't see it. Y'all are just accepting this garbage and happy with it.

Find me a single fan that is happy with this. Nobody likes to see this, but as has been pointed out multiple times, if you were told start the year that Bailey, DeSclafani and Finnegan would have thrown a total of a couple of starts between them, I would have picked them to be 10-40, not hovering just below .500.

redhawkfish
05-30-2017, 08:31 PM
I highly doubt a guy in his 3rd appearance with the reds is going to intentionally hit Tulo on an 0-1 pitch. His control has been all over this inning. Sometimes pitchers hit guys, even after a home run.

I think Price orders the HBP often, not more than Hurdle but at a high rate.

Tracy Jones
05-30-2017, 08:31 PM
So far the only difference tonight is Pillar getting plunked.

reds44
05-30-2017, 08:31 PM
It's every night with this group! I'm so sick of it as a fan. We could be in first or Be a game out but no. We let these starting pitchers get drilled every night. I know I let my frustrations out but some of you don't see it. Y'all are just accepting this garbage and happy with it.

We all see it and nobody is happy about it.

Also, this whole "we (lol) could be in first thing) completely ignores how bad the cubs and cardinals have played. If the Cubs were playing to their talent level (we) also could be 10 out.

_Sir_Charles_
05-30-2017, 08:32 PM
It's every night with this group! I'm so sick of it as a fan. We could be in first or Be a game out but no. We let these starting pitchers get drilled every night. I know I let my frustrations out but some of you don't see it. Y'all are just accepting this garbage and happy with it.

I'm honestly curious. What would you do to fix it? Unless you've got a magic wand that can mend our ailing pitchers....what's your fix?

Kc61
05-30-2017, 08:33 PM
Find me a single fan that is happy with this. Nobody likes to see this, but as has been pointed out multiple times, if you were told start the year that Bailey, DeSclafani and Finnegan would have thrown a total of a couple of starts between them, I would have picked them to be 10-40, not hovering just below .500.

Even with Bailey, Disco and Finnegan I didn't think the Reds would win this much.

Roy Tucker
05-30-2017, 08:34 PM
Not me. I'm writing a terse letter to Dick Williams and my congressman about it.

A strongly worded letter.

It's time someone did something about something sometime somehow.

reds44
05-30-2017, 08:34 PM
Ya'll need to stop sleeping on my Daniel Murphy theory :dunno:

Not really. He could literally be Daniel Murphy and he should still be traded

PutPeteIn
05-30-2017, 08:34 PM
Cozart at .352 and 2 homers today may be the hottest hitter on the planet.

Rantly
05-30-2017, 08:34 PM
It's every night with this group! I'm so sick of it as a fan. We could be in first or Be a game out but no. We let these starting pitchers get drilled every night. I know I let my frustrations out but some of you don't see it. Y'all are just accepting this garbage and happy with it.

nm

Tony Cloninger
05-30-2017, 08:35 PM
I'm saying it bodes well once the regular starters return to good health. The bullpen, defense and offense are VERY good. Get even average starting pitching and this team can contend. No, I'm not saying this year. I don't expect Disco or Homer to be like they were before injuries until next year.

The "future" is not showing to be part of the problem. Bronson, Adelman, Feldman, Wojo and Bonilla are NOT part of the "future". The "future" is all on the DL.

- - - Updated - - -

:jump: COZY


I am happy with everything else. I just don't see Bailey and AD as being part of the future myself. I am just hoping Romano and AG get some more good work in AAA and they do not rush Mahle. I also wrote in another thread how they just need to sign at worst a #3 because this developmental process of the Reds is muy Malo.

Cyclone792
05-30-2017, 08:35 PM
The 2001 Reds rotation had an ERA+ of 80.

The 2003 Reds rotation had an ERA+ of 74.

The 2005 Reds rotation had an ERA+ of 78.

The 2017 Reds rotation currently has an ERA+ of 72.

Pretty lousy when you can't even out-pitch guys such as Jimmy Haynes, Danny Graves (the starter version), Jimmy Anderson, Jeff Austin, Ryan Dempster (before he was good) and Paul Wilson.

votto14
05-30-2017, 08:35 PM
I'm just saying. I hate losing esp when you get chances to get within a game or 2. We could be in first place but we sit back and say rebuild rebuild. I understand that. But at the same time we have chances to win this Divison and we are not doing it and some of our fans just accept that.

Tracy Jones
05-30-2017, 08:35 PM
A strongly worded letter.

It's time someone did something about something sometime somehow.

And we're just the someone's to do something!....somehow.

_Sir_Charles_
05-30-2017, 08:36 PM
Even with Bailey, Disco and Finnegan I didn't think the Reds would win this much.

Exactly. Which is precisely why I think it bodes well for the future. Get healthy and this club could be formidable. Much more so than any of us expected.

Reds Fanatic
05-30-2017, 08:37 PM
It's every night with this group! I'm so sick of it as a fan. We could be in first or Be a game out but no. We let these starting pitchers get drilled every night. I know I let my frustrations out but some of you don't see it. Y'all are just accepting this garbage and happy with it.

The thing is any team and I mean any team would have trouble with 4 of their 5 starters on the DL. Add to that this is a rebuilding team with young starters anyway and no real help close to ready at the AAA level and this is what you get. Frankly with the injuries it is amazing this team is this close to .500. Hopefully if some of these starters come back in the 2nd half it will be a little better but until then this is the way it is. No one is happy about it but it is not worth being miserable night and night out either.

Tracy Jones
05-30-2017, 08:37 PM
Exactly. Which is precisely why I think it bodes well for the future. Get healthy and this club could be formidable. Much more so than any of us expected.

You have to assume no Cozart and his super human offense going forward though

_Sir_Charles_
05-30-2017, 08:38 PM
I am happy with everything else. I just don't see Bailey and AD as being part of the future myself. I am just hoping Romano and AG get some more good work in AAA and they do not rush Mahle. I also wrote in another thread how they just need to sign at worst a #3 because this developmental process of the Reds is muy Malo.

Fair point. But these TJ injuries aren't the death sentence they used to be. I'm expecting both of them to come back and be effective. #1 or #2 starter effective? Who knows. But easily a middle of rotation type of starter. I also want to see Lorenzen and Iglesias to get another shot at starting.

_Sir_Charles_
05-30-2017, 08:39 PM
You have to assume no Cozart and his super human offense going forward though

Personally, I'm not assuming that. I'm not seeing a market for him, and if the Reds can pull off a short deal...I think they should pull the trigger.

Tony Cloninger
05-30-2017, 08:39 PM
I'm just saying. I hate losing esp when you get chances to get within a game or 2. We could be in first place but we sit back and say rebuild rebuild. I understand that. But at the same time we have chances to win this Divison and we are not doing it and some of our fans just accept that.

It was already accepted that this was a rebuild. Just because this division de used to resemble the 1997 or the 2006 seasons (look them up for point of reference). It does not mean they are actual contenders. At all. But yes on most nights this is a joke. Injuries or not they should sign more non roster pitchers to take the hits.

votto14
05-30-2017, 08:41 PM
Thank you Lorenzen!

Tracy Jones
05-30-2017, 08:41 PM
Personally, I'm not assuming that. I'm not seeing a market for him, and if the Reds can pull off a short deal...I think they should pull the trigger.

I wouldn't be upset if they did. It's risky though for a team like the Reds and where they are at this point in time

PutPeteIn
05-30-2017, 08:42 PM
Price aint screwing around. The Canucks are getting our bully tonight!

Tom Servo
05-30-2017, 08:42 PM
Not really. He could literally be Daniel Murphy and he should still be traded
I mean...I'd love to have Daniel Murphy right now. I know trading him is essentially a must...but if you really think he can hit anywhere close to this moving forward, why let him leave?

reds44
05-30-2017, 08:42 PM
You should assume you won't get Cozart's super human offense moving forward whether he's on the team or not.

Red Raindog
05-30-2017, 08:43 PM
The thing is any team and I mean any team would have trouble with 4 of their 5 starters on the DL. Add to that this is a rebuilding team with young starters anyway and no real help close to ready at the AAA level and this is what you get. Frankly with the injuries it is amazing this team is this close to .500. Hopefully if some of these starters come back in the 2nd half it will be a little better but until then this is the way it is. No one is happy about it but it is not worth being miserable night and night out either.

because I have a wife for that --- ////rimshot

_Sir_Charles_
05-30-2017, 08:43 PM
Pretty lousy when you can't even out-pitch guys such as Jimmy Haynes, Danny Graves (the starter version), Jimmy Anderson, Jeff Austin, Ryan Dempster (before he was good) and Paul Wilson.

Big difference is those were the guys penciled in to start for the club back then. Same can't be said for this current rotation. I think many are underestimating just how devastated the injuries have been to the Reds pitching this year.

The 5 guys on the DL would make a pretty decent rotation IMO. Homer, Disco, Cingrani, Garrett and Finnegan. (and I'm not a believer in Cingrani)

reds44
05-30-2017, 08:43 PM
I mean...I'd love to have Daniel Murphy right now. I know trading him is essentially a must...but if you really think he can hit anywhere close to this moving forward, why let him leave?

Do not pay aging stars with injury histories on small market teams.


Nope.

Roy Tucker
05-30-2017, 08:44 PM
Actually, I'm enjoying this season more than I thought I would.

I thought it was going to be a combined dumpster fire and turd bowl. But besides the starters (yeah, I know, "beside that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"), the offense, bullpen, and defense have been pretty good. There are some good stories going on this year.

Raisor
05-30-2017, 08:44 PM
I'm just saying. I hate losing esp when you get chances to get within a game or 2. We could be in first place but we sit back and say rebuild rebuild. I understand that. But at the same time we have chances to win this Divison and we are not doing it and some of our fans just accept that.


You don't accept it. What's changed? How does not accepting it do anything other than make the rest of us miserable?

Tracy Jones
05-30-2017, 08:45 PM
Actually, I'm enjoying this season more than I thought I would.

I thought it was going to be a combined dumpster fire and turd bowl. But besides the starters (yeah, I know, "beside that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"), the offense, bullpen, and defense have been pretty good. There are some good stories going on this year.

Mmmmm....fiery turd bowl

lollipopcurve
05-30-2017, 08:46 PM
I know trading him is essentially a must

Trading Cozart is not a must. There is no one sitting there, overripe to take over the position.

Big Klu
05-30-2017, 08:47 PM
The thing is any team and I mean any team would have trouble with 4 of their 5 starters on the DL. Add to that this is a rebuilding team with young starters anyway and no real help close to ready at the AAA level and this is what you get. Frankly with the injuries it is amazing this team is this close to .500. Hopefully if some of these starters come back in the 2nd half it will be a little better but until then this is the way it is. No one is happy about it but it is not worth being miserable night and night out either.

I understand that, but I also understand fans that are tired of hearing, "Well, what can you expect with all the injuries in the starting rotation?" This excuse has been floating around for two years now, and frankly it's getting frustrating.

_Sir_Charles_
05-30-2017, 08:48 PM
I wouldn't be upset if they did. It's risky though for a team like the Reds and where they are at this point in time

IMO it's only risky if people think Peraza and Herrera are the real deal. I'm not sold. Cozart's had this ability all along. That one horrific season followed by injuries have kept him from showing his true hitting ability. (no, I don't think he's THIS good...but he's got power and the ability to hit for average...coupled with his glove that's a SOLID player)

Tom Servo
05-30-2017, 08:48 PM
Trading Cozart is not a must. There is no one sitting there, overripe to take over the position.
He's a free agent to be so it pretty much is. I'm not resigning him simply because I have questions about the kids, I'm resigning him if I think what he's doing in 2017 is in anyway repeatable. Part of me is really thinking it is.

Tracy Jones
05-30-2017, 08:48 PM
Trading Cozart is not a must. There is no one sitting there, overripe to take over the position.

Peraza, while not overripe can play it adequately. The problem then lies at 2B.

Wolves198921
05-30-2017, 08:48 PM
Maybe we should just be glad we aren't in the AL east. Then again we are 2-11 against the Cubs and Brewers so.....

HokieRed
05-30-2017, 08:49 PM
Most obvious way, it seems to me, to improve the rotation in a way at least potentially consistent with the "rebuild" is to stretch out Lorenzen.

reds44
05-30-2017, 08:50 PM
He's a free agent to be so it pretty much is. I'm not resigning him simply because I have questions about the kids, I'm resigning him if I think what he's doing in 2017 is in anyway repeatable. Part of me is really thinking it is.

.400 BABIP

.282 for his career.

Nope.

Tracy Jones
05-30-2017, 08:50 PM
Most obvious way, it seems to me, to improve the rotation in a way at least potentially consistent with the "rebuild" is to stretch out Lorenzen.

I'd rather they do that with Iglesias

reds44
05-30-2017, 08:50 PM
Peraza, while not overripe can play it adequately. The problem then lies at 2B.

Except the number 6 prospect in all of baseball solves that problem next year.

Tom Servo
05-30-2017, 08:51 PM
.400 BABIP

.282 for his career.

Nope.
Of course he's not gonna hit .350 this year, but near .300 seems entirely realistic. You're also ignoring the huge spike in walks.

_Sir_Charles_
05-30-2017, 08:51 PM
Trading Cozart is not a must. There is no one sitting there, overripe to take over the position.

Exactly. If there was a young'un pounding on the door for playing time...I'd get it. But that's simply not the case. OVERPAYING...would be a mistake. A short, modest contract extension...that's doable. Big question is whether Cozart would go for it or not. I guessing "not"...but IMO it's certainly worth exploring.

Raisor
05-30-2017, 08:52 PM
I'd rather they do that with Iglesias

Two years in a row he was shut down from the rotation with shoulder problems.

If he could start he would be starting.

Tony Cloninger
05-30-2017, 08:52 PM
Fair point. But these TJ injuries aren't the death sentence they used to be. I'm expecting both of them to come back and be effective. #1 or #2 starter effective? Who knows. But easily a middle of rotation type of starter. I also want to see Lorenzen and Iglesias to get another shot at starting.

Lorenzen yes. Iglesias may have the same injury issues again so I don't know about him. I know Lorenzen had some arm issues too but he looks stronger than RI.

reds44
05-30-2017, 08:53 PM
Of course he's not gonna hit .350 this year, but near .300 seems entirely realistic. You're also ignoring the huge spike in walks.

He's probably better than .252/.298/.397 but he's not roll the dice on a multi year deal around $10+ million a year for a rebuilding team on a 32 year old good.

reds44
05-30-2017, 08:55 PM
Exactly. If there was a young'un pounding on the door for playing time...I'd get it. But that's simply not the case. OVERPAYING...would be a mistake. A short, modest contract extension...that's doable. Big question is whether Cozart would go for it or not. I guessing "not"...but IMO it's certainly worth exploring.

There are a ton of MIF options in this organization.

Tracy Jones
05-30-2017, 08:55 PM
Two years in a row he was shut down from the rotation with shoulder problems.

If he could start he would be starting.

Doesn't necessarily mean it's a given that it happens again. It won't happen, but if there's a guy on this staff that could be an all-star level starter, it's Iglesias. I personally don't think Lorenzen is.

_Sir_Charles_
05-30-2017, 08:55 PM
Peraza, while not overripe can play it adequately. The problem then lies at 2B.

True. So we either play a question mark at 2b...or we pay a guy to play it short-term until the question mark is answered.

Why do that when we have answers currently for both positions? Instead of paying a 2b replacement...use that to pay Cozy and give Peraza more time. The glove's not going anywhere...it's his bat that needs time.

reds44
05-30-2017, 08:56 PM
True. So we either play a question mark at 2b...or we pay a guy to play it short-term until the question mark is answered.

Why do that when we have answers currently for both positions? Instead of paying a 2b replacement...use that to pay Cozy and give Peraza more time. The glove's not going anywhere...it's his bat that needs time.

You're literally ignoring one of the best 2-3 hitting prospects in baseball will be ready at some point in the next year.

Tracy Jones
05-30-2017, 08:58 PM
True. So we either play a question mark at 2b...or we pay a guy to play it short-term until the question mark is answered.

Why do that when we have answers currently for both positions? Instead of paying a 2b replacement...use that to pay Cozy and give Peraza more time. The glove's not going anywhere...it's his bat that needs time.

Well as Mr. 44 pointed out, Senzel could solve that problem fairly soon

Raisor
05-30-2017, 08:58 PM
Doesn't necessarily mean it's a given that it happens again. It won't happen, but if there's a guy on this staff that could be an all-star level starter, it's Iglesias. I personally don't think Lorenzen is.

So you are willing to risk another injury?

_Sir_Charles_
05-30-2017, 08:58 PM
.400 BABIP

.282 for his career.

Nope.

Look deeper. It's not just the BABIP. He's whiffing less, walking more, seeing more pitches, hitting for power and extra base hits, etc. Normalize the BABIP to say .320 or so...he's still a VERY productive SS. He's looked like a very good hitter for a few years now. It's just that the injuries have hidden it somewhat.

reds44
05-30-2017, 08:59 PM
So you are willing to risk another injury?
If you were going to give Iglesias or Lorenzen another go as a starter, this would have been the year.

If they won't start either of them running out dumb, dumber, and dumbererer every day to start, it ain't happening.

votto14
05-30-2017, 08:59 PM
This is about to be another ugly loss.

Well never mind Lorenzen gets a dp.

Tracy Jones
05-30-2017, 09:00 PM
So you are willing to risk another injury?

For the potential reward that I believe he could give in a rotation? Possibly.

Of course he's so good where he's at right now, part of me says don't rock his boat too.

_Sir_Charles_
05-30-2017, 09:01 PM
Except the number 6 prospect in all of baseball solves that problem next year.

Firstly, we all know that prospects are far from "sure things". We have no clue if he solves ANY problem. I'm also very hesitant to move Suarez anywhere. If the rook shows that he's the real deal...I'd consider trading Suarez for pitching. He'd get more of a haul than Cozart would right now IMO.

reds44
05-30-2017, 09:01 PM
Look deeper. It's not just the BABIP. He's whiffing less, walking more, seeing more pitches, hitting for power and extra base hits, etc. Normalize the BABIP to say .320 or so...he's still a VERY productive SS. He's looked like a very good hitter for a few years now. It's just that the injuries have hidden it somewhat.

Career K rate of 16.5%.
2017 K rate of 17.1 percent.

Weeee making stuff up.

Losing 120 points of BABIP will drop you more than .030 of batting average, sir.

OPS+ of 91 last year. Very good hitter!

Reds Fanatic
05-30-2017, 09:01 PM
True. So we either play a question mark at 2b...or we pay a guy to play it short-term until the question mark is answered.

Why do that when we have answers currently for both positions? Instead of paying a 2b replacement...use that to pay Cozy and give Peraza more time. The glove's not going anywhere...it's his bat that needs time.

This is the year especially with the start he is off to where you are going to get maximum value from a Cozart trade. Unless the team really plans to sign him to a long term deal chances are this year is the most value you are going to get out of a Cozart trade. If you really going all in on a rebuild you have to get maximum value when you can and hope Herrera is close to ready to take over 2B. I know his number this year are not good but unless they are really going to get a long term deal I think this is year you have to try to get as much as you can for Cozart

Tracy Jones
05-30-2017, 09:01 PM
This is about to be another ugly loss.

Criswell over here...

PutPeteIn
05-30-2017, 09:02 PM
Let's Gooooooooooooo!!!!

reds44
05-30-2017, 09:02 PM
Firstly, we all know that prospects are far from "sure things". We have no clue if he solves ANY problem. I'm also very hesitant to move Suarez anywhere. If the rook shows that he's the real deal...I'd consider trading Suarez for pitching. He'd get more of a haul than Cozart would right now IMO.

So we've now gone from "nobody banging down the door" to "prospects aren't a sure thing."

And the 32 year old in the middle of a massive career year with injury history is obviously the lock of the century.

Trade the 26 year old cost controlled player to make room to giving the 32 year old with a bum knee a multi year deal. Now there's how to run a franchise.

Raisor
05-30-2017, 09:03 PM
True. So we either play a question mark at 2b...or we pay a guy to play it short-term until the question mark is answered.

Why do that when we have answers currently for both positions? Instead of paying a 2b replacement...use that to pay Cozy and give Peraza more time. The glove's not going anywhere...it's his bat that needs time.

Peraza has played full time for three months. In two of those months he has +740 OPS. As a major leaguer, at 23 years old, and 500-ish plate appearances, he has a 700 OPS.

He's doing fine. Paying Cozart 25m, give or take, is 25m they won't have to address other needs.

reds44
05-30-2017, 09:04 PM
Peraza has played full time for three months. In two of those months he has +740 OPS. As a major leaguer, at 23 years old, and 500-ish plate appearances, he has a 700 OPS.

He's doing fine. Paying Cozart 25m, give or take, is 25m they won't have to address other needs.

Cozy pulling this first half out of his ass is a massive win for the Reds. Why can't we just leave it at that?

votto14
05-30-2017, 09:04 PM
Lead off hit peraza!!! Come on boys!

_Sir_Charles_
05-30-2017, 09:05 PM
There are a ton of MIF options in this organization.

READY options? That's the question. I see several as well...but I see them a year or two away at least. A two or 3 year deal is doable.

Reds Fanatic
05-30-2017, 09:05 PM
Peraza to 3rd on a steal and an error

votto14
05-30-2017, 09:05 PM
Peraza to 3rd.

Tracy Jones
05-30-2017, 09:05 PM
Looks like an ugly loss for the Blue Jays...

_Sir_Charles_
05-30-2017, 09:06 PM
New ballgame.

Reds Fanatic
05-30-2017, 09:06 PM
Tie game as Hamilton drives in a run

votto14
05-30-2017, 09:06 PM
Tie game!!!! Billy RBI!

BluegrassRedleg
05-30-2017, 09:06 PM
Nice job, Billy.


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votto14
05-30-2017, 09:06 PM
I'll give the reds this much. They don't quit.

PutPeteIn
05-30-2017, 09:06 PM
Havoc Alert!!!

reds44
05-30-2017, 09:07 PM
READY options? That's the question. I see several as well...but I see them a year or two away at least. A two or 3 year deal is doable.

They.

Have.

The.

Number.

Six.

Prospect.

In.

Baseball.

He'll be in Cincinnati at some point in 2018.

Suarez/Peraza/Senzel is your IF next year. Scooter is under control next year as well. Dilson will figure it out. Shed Long and Alf are raking in Daytona.

How many MIF options do you need? 70?

BluegrassRedleg
05-30-2017, 09:07 PM
New ballgame.

Especially when Billy is at third here in a second.


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Raisor
05-30-2017, 09:07 PM
READY options? That's the question. I see several as well...but I see them a year or two away at least. A two or 3 year deal is doable.

Go look at Cozart's 1st and 2nd half splits from last season.

Reds Fanatic
05-30-2017, 09:08 PM
Hamilton steals 2nd

votto14
05-30-2017, 09:08 PM
Billy stolen base!

Tony Cloninger
05-30-2017, 09:08 PM
Offense finally coming through. Pitching has to do everything around here.

votto14
05-30-2017, 09:08 PM
Man that was close tho.

Tracy Jones
05-30-2017, 09:08 PM
They.

Have.

The.

Number.

Six.

Prospect.

In.

Baseball.

He'll be in Cincinnati at some point in 2018.

Suarez/Peraza/Senzel is your IF next year. Scooter is under control next year as well. Dilson will figure it out. Shed Long and Alf are raking in Daytona.

How many MIF options do you need? 70?

Wait...did you say ALF IS RAKING???

That'll make some people on this board very angry.

reds44
05-30-2017, 09:09 PM
I really hope the Reds just leave Peraza ninth when they lose the DH. With how short their starters are going, they're really only have to bat once or at most twice most of the time anyways.

votto14
05-30-2017, 09:09 PM
Cozy walks!!!

Reds Fanatic
05-30-2017, 09:09 PM
4 pitch walk to Cozart

Raisor
05-30-2017, 09:09 PM
Wait...did you say ALF IS RAKING???

That'll make some people on this board very angry.

His May has been very nice.

So has Peraza's btw

votto14
05-30-2017, 09:09 PM
Big chance here boys!

reds44
05-30-2017, 09:09 PM
Wait...did you say ALF IS RAKING???

That'll make some people on this board very angry.

Hitting .337 in May.

Reds Fanatic
05-30-2017, 09:10 PM
Billy caught stealing 3rd

Tracy Jones
05-30-2017, 09:10 PM
His May has been very nice.

So has Peraza's btw

I know. You pointed that out the other night.

Nobody likes a know it all.

votto14
05-30-2017, 09:10 PM
Why did you steal billy!!! Jesus Christ

BluegrassRedleg
05-30-2017, 09:10 PM
I really hope the Reds just leave Peraza ninth when they lose the DH. With how short their starters are going, they're really only have to bat once or at most twice most of the time anyways.

No qualms at all with that.


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Roy Tucker
05-30-2017, 09:11 PM
I'll give the reds this much. They don't quit.

You're coming perilously close to having to turn in your Reds Fan Club card.

No negative vibes. We need positive karma, man.

votto14
05-30-2017, 09:11 PM
Marty is going off!!!!

OnBaseMachine
05-30-2017, 09:11 PM
Why? You're already in scoring position with no outs and Votto batting? Stupid, stupid play by Hamilton.

Wolves198921
05-30-2017, 09:11 PM
Poor, poor, poor decision. Momentum swing right there as no outs with votto up.

_Sir_Charles_
05-30-2017, 09:11 PM
You're literally ignoring one of the best 2-3 hitting prospects in baseball will be ready at some point in the next year.

No. I'm really not. Firstly, he's not sniffed AAA yet. Let's not pencil him in as a starter just yet. Secondly, he's a 3b or possibly a 2b. I'm assuming your plan is to move Suarez to SS? I'm not a fan of moving an established major leaguer who's putting up an all-star worthy season for a rookie who "may" be the next big thing.

I'm guessing your plan is 1b Votto, 2b Peraza, SS Suarez and 3b Senzel. I'd rather see 1b Votto, 2b Senzel/Peraza, SS Cozart, 3b Suarez/Senzel ...assuming Senzel is ready.

BluegrassRedleg
05-30-2017, 09:11 PM
Marty ripping into Hamilton. Dumb play, especially with LH batter (named Votto) if you get no lead.


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Reds Fanatic
05-30-2017, 09:12 PM
It is hard to tell a weapon like Hamilton not to steal but that is a situation where you need a stop sign for him

Playadlc
05-30-2017, 09:13 PM
I have no words for the stupidity of running there.

Hero ball.

OnBaseMachine
05-30-2017, 09:13 PM
Such a dumb play especially considering this guy can't find the plate.

Reds Fanatic
05-30-2017, 09:13 PM
Votto walks.

votto14
05-30-2017, 09:13 PM
Now look billy we could had bases loaded no outs. Just ridiculous

reds44
05-30-2017, 09:13 PM
Ripping Hamilton there is the same as ripping Votto if he takes a hack 3-0 and makes an out.

I'll take my chances in either spot.

Martin made a good throw. It happens.

Big Klu
05-30-2017, 09:13 PM
Marty ripping into Hamilton. Dumb play, especially with LH batter (named Votto) if you get no lead.


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Marty can stuff it. I've had enough of his "Get off my lawn" angry old man act.

Raisor
05-30-2017, 09:13 PM
No. I'm really not. Firstly, he's not sniffed AAA yet. Let's not pencil him in as a starter just yet. Secondly, he's a 3b or possibly a 2b. I'm assuming your plan is to move Suarez to SS? I'm not a fan of moving an established major leaguer who's putting up an all-star worthy season for a rookie who "may" be the next big thing.

I'm guessing your plan is 1b Votto, 2b Peraza, SS Suarez and 3b Senzel. I'd rather see 1b Votto, 2b Senzel/Peraza, SS Cozart, 3b Suarez/Senzel ...assuming Senzel is ready.

So platoon Suarez to make room for Cozart?

Wolves198921
05-30-2017, 09:13 PM
Could have had bases loaded zero outs, need a clutch hit to get momentum back.

Tracy Jones
05-30-2017, 09:13 PM
All decisions are bad decisions when they don't work

BluegrassRedleg
05-30-2017, 09:14 PM
A great base stealer has to have huge swagger bordering on arrogance, but you just can't go without a good lead/break in that situation.


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_Sir_Charles_
05-30-2017, 09:14 PM
Career K rate of 16.5%.
2017 K rate of 17.1 percent.

Weeee making stuff up.

Losing 120 points of BABIP will drop you more than .030 of batting average, sir.

OPS+ of 91 last year. Very good hitter!

I didn't look up the stats. I was going of what I've seen. So yeah, I was wrong on the k rate. And I'm not saying he'll drop 120 points of BABIP, you are. I don't think his career average is a true measure of his ability.

votto14
05-30-2017, 09:15 PM
That could cost us the game.

reds44
05-30-2017, 09:15 PM
A great base stealer has to have huge swagger bordering on arrogance, but you just can't go without a good lead/break in that situation.


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Fairly sure it's not as easy to decide middle of attempting to steal a base if you got a good break, stop, and get back to 2nd base.

BluegrassRedleg
05-30-2017, 09:15 PM
And of course.


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Reds Fanatic
05-30-2017, 09:15 PM
Duvall gets robbed on a diving catch

Kc61
05-30-2017, 09:16 PM
I thought that was going to fall in. Darn.

OnBaseMachine
05-30-2017, 09:16 PM
With Votto batting in that situation, I don't want Hamilton attempting to steal 3rd. Especially with no outs. That was a horrible decision and could very well cost the Reds the game.

Wolves198921
05-30-2017, 09:16 PM
At this point if we lose I won't be upset. Between stupid decisions and miracle plays by the blue jays it's just not our night, or series.

RedTeamGo!
05-30-2017, 09:16 PM
Wait...did you say ALF IS RAKING???

That'll make some people on this board very angry.

As Doug tweeted a little bit ago:


Alfredo Rodriguez moves to 3-4 on the night. Now up to .292. He's now 37-105 in May. That's a .352 average for the Tortugas. #Reds

Yes, Alf is swinging a really hot bat.

And this is one I am going to pat my own back on if Alf pans out:

I am one of the very very few on redszone that gave Alf a chance and defended him.

votto14
05-30-2017, 09:17 PM
Thanks billy Hamilton!

_Sir_Charles_
05-30-2017, 09:17 PM
This is the year especially with the start he is off to where you are going to get maximum value from a Cozart trade. Unless the team really plans to sign him to a long term deal chances are this year is the most value you are going to get out of a Cozart trade. If you really going all in on a rebuild you have to get maximum value when you can and hope Herrera is close to ready to take over 2B. I know his number this year are not good but unless they are really going to get a long term deal I think this is year you have to try to get as much as you can for Cozart

Very fair point and I agree with you. But trade value doesn't mean anything if there aren't any buyers. It takes two to tango and right now I'm not seeing any partners. If a good deal opportunity shows itself...I'm game for pulling the trigger. But I still think exploring a short term deal is worth looking at. I honestly don't think this season is a mirage.

Banshee
05-30-2017, 09:18 PM
The baseball IQ of this team is pretty low, ugh.

reds44
05-30-2017, 09:18 PM
Thanks billy Hamilton!

trade him!

BluegrassRedleg
05-30-2017, 09:18 PM
Fairly sure it's not as easy to decide middle of attempting to steal a base if you got a good break, stop, and get back to 2nd base.

He knows what a good lead is, though. He had NO lead there at all, no forward momentum.


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Ironman92
05-30-2017, 09:18 PM
Crap. Hamilton thrown out by 2 inches, crazy play to rob Duvall

Tie game. Jays will score 3+ this inning

Kc61
05-30-2017, 09:18 PM
As Doug tweeted a little bit ago:


Yes, Alf is swinging a really hot bat.

And this is one I am going to pat my own back on if Alf pans out:

I am one of the very very few on redszone that gave Alf a chance and defended him.

There were a few others.

Tracy Jones
05-30-2017, 09:19 PM
Thanks billy Hamilton!

He did drive in the tying run...

reds44
05-30-2017, 09:19 PM
He knows what a good lead is, though. He had NO lead there at all, no forward momentum.


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Gonna go ahead and say he didn't decide to randomly go YOLO and try to steal a base when he wasn't comfortable with his lead.

BluegrassRedleg
05-30-2017, 09:19 PM
Thanks billy Hamilton!

Well, he did tie this game up, so "You're welcome!"


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votto14
05-30-2017, 09:19 PM
He did drive in the tying run...



And also costed us a chance at the lead. This team at times pisses me off.

reds44
05-30-2017, 09:20 PM
And also costed us a chance at the lead. This team at times pisses me off.

really? you hide it so well

PutPeteIn
05-30-2017, 09:20 PM
I'll take the tie for now.

Tracy Jones
05-30-2017, 09:21 PM
And also costed us a chance at the lead. This team at times pisses me off.

Really? Can't tell

Kc61
05-30-2017, 09:21 PM
Very fair point and I agree with you. But trade value doesn't mean anything if there aren't any buyers. It takes two to tango and right now I'm not seeing any partners. If a good deal opportunity shows itself...I'm game for pulling the trigger. But I still think exploring a short term deal is worth looking at. I honestly don't think this season is a mirage.

Charles, I really don't get this. Cozart is sixth in the league in OPS and OBP. He leads the league in BA. Superb defender.

There is not a contender in baseball who wouldn't want Cozart for August - October. Some have a stronger need but everyone will want his bat.

And it's a rental. He can play second, or third, or DH, for a couple of months.

There will be plenty of partners - and it only takes one.

Reds Fanatic
05-30-2017, 09:21 PM
4th K for Lorenzen

votto14
05-30-2017, 09:22 PM
I'm like Marty brennaman. This team's iq is mind boggling

reds44
05-30-2017, 09:22 PM
Charles, I really don't get this. Cozart is sixth in the league in OPS and OBP. He leads the league in BA. Superb defender.

There is not a contender in baseball who wouldn't want Cozart. Some have a stronger need.

But it's a rental. He can play second, or third, or DH, for a couple of months.

There will be plenty of partners - and it only takes one.

Nobody wants him so lets give him a pile o' cash in the offseason!

OnBaseMachine
05-30-2017, 09:22 PM
Hopefully this is the start of moving stretching Lorenzen out in preparation of moving into a starter's role.

_Sir_Charles_
05-30-2017, 09:22 PM
So we've now gone from "nobody banging down the door" to "prospects aren't a sure thing."

And the 32 year old in the middle of a massive career year with injury history is obviously the lock of the century.

Trade the 26 year old cost controlled player to make room to giving the 32 year old with a bum knee a multi year deal. Now there's how to run a franchise.

We were talking about Shortstop...not third. So, no. There aren't any prospects knocking down the door. Heck, for that matter...neither is Senzel for third.

I'm in favor of extending Cozy for a short term deal as an effective stopgap until the kids ARE ready to take over. Right now, they're not.

Moving Suarez off third, IMO, reduces his value. So if Senzel looks to be legit AND looks to be a regular 3b...look to flip him while he's got fantastic value.
As you yourself said, we've got loads of MIF prospects...what we need is time to get them ready. Cozart could give them that time.
If a deal for Cozart shows up...pull the trigger. But I'm not trading him just for the sake of trading him. There has to be a trade partner.

BluegrassRedleg
05-30-2017, 09:23 PM
Gonna go ahead and say he didn't decide to randomly go YOLO and try to steal a base when he wasn't comfortable with his lead.

Actually, that's pretty much exactly what he did if you watch the play.


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Reds Fanatic
05-30-2017, 09:23 PM
Nice play by Suarez

reds44
05-30-2017, 09:23 PM
I'm like Marty brennaman. This team's iq is mind boggling

marty? that you?

Raisor
05-30-2017, 09:23 PM
Very fair point and I agree with you. But trade value doesn't mean anything if there aren't any buyers. It takes two to tango and right now I'm not seeing any partners. If a good deal opportunity shows itself...I'm game for pulling the trigger. But I still think exploring a short term deal is worth looking at. I honestly don't think this season is a mirage.

He has 1 season under his belt where he has put up an OPS over 700 AND collected more than 500 plate appearances.

This is a career year. He may finish this season with a +800 OPS and 500+ PAs, but the odds of him ever doing it again are very low.

Reds HAVE to trade him.

If a free agent market doesn't develop for him in the offseason, they can always sign him then.

Tracy Jones
05-30-2017, 09:24 PM
The difference in Suarez fielding in 2017 and 2015 is astounding

Kc61
05-30-2017, 09:24 PM
We were talking about Shortstop...not third. So, no. There aren't any prospects knocking down the door. Heck, for that matter...neither is Senzel for third.

I'm in favor of extending Cozy for a short term deal as an effective stopgap until the kids ARE ready to take over. Right now, they're not.

Moving Suarez off third, IMO, reduces his value. So if Senzel looks to be legit AND looks to be a regular 3b...look to flip him while he's got fantastic value.
As you yourself said, we've got loads of MIF prospects...what we need is time to get them ready. Cozart could give them that time.
If a deal for Cozart shows up...pull the trigger. But I'm not trading him just for the sake of trading him. There has to be a trade partner.

So Cozart is going to forego free agency for a Reds "short term deal?"

reds44
05-30-2017, 09:25 PM
We were talking about Shortstop...not third. So, no. There aren't any prospects knocking down the door. Heck, for that matter...neither is Senzel for third.

I'm in favor of extending Cozy for a short term deal as an effective stopgap until the kids ARE ready to take over. Right now, they're not.

Moving Suarez off third, IMO, reduces his value. So if Senzel looks to be legit AND looks to be a regular 3b...look to flip him while he's got fantastic value.
As you yourself said, we've got loads of MIF prospects...what we need is time to get them ready. Cozart could give them that time.
If a deal for Cozart shows up...pull the trigger. But I'm not trading him just for the sake of trading him. There has to be a trade partner.

The Reds current 2nd baseman, the guy who scored the tying run last inning, can play SS.

Why are you trying to trade anyone to make room for Cozart? It doesn't make any sense.

Big Klu
05-30-2017, 09:25 PM
marty? that you?

Is he wearing a shirt?

BluegrassRedleg
05-30-2017, 09:25 PM
Charles, I really don't get this. Cozart is sixth in the league in OPS and OBP. He leads the league in BA. Superb defender.

There is not a contender in baseball who wouldn't want Cozart for August - October. Some have a stronger need but everyone will want his bat.

And it's a rental. He can play second, or third, or DH, for a couple of months.

There will be plenty of partners - and it only takes one.

The catch is, his numbers won't likely be there at the deadline. You're basing it off what he's doing now, which is extremely impressive. But will it hold up? Nothing on his resume suggests it will.


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reds44
05-30-2017, 09:26 PM
The catch is, his numbers won't likely be there at the deadline. You're basing it off what he's doing now, which is extremely impressive. But will it hold up? Nothing on his resume suggests it will.


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and this is an argument for re-signing him?

BluegrassRedleg
05-30-2017, 09:26 PM
The difference in Suarez fielding in 2017 and 2015 is astounding

It's hard to recall too many guys who made this kind of quick turnaround with the glove.


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Tracy Jones
05-30-2017, 09:26 PM
The chicks LOVE Zack. Keep him.

Kc61
05-30-2017, 09:26 PM
The catch is, his numbers won't likely be there at the deadline. You're basing it off what he's doing now, which is extremely impressive. But will it hold up? Nothing on his resume suggests it will.


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If Zack's numbers aren't there in late July, why is it so important for the Reds to keep him?

votto14
05-30-2017, 09:27 PM
Come on Lorenzen

reds44
05-30-2017, 09:28 PM
So the main arguments for keeping Cozart are his number won't be this good in July and because of this he won't have any trade value.




Wat

Tracy Jones
05-30-2017, 09:28 PM
It's hard to recall too many guys who made this kind of quick turnaround with the glove.


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He was atrocious at SS when he first came. At this point in time at third, he's been routinely awesome

votto14
05-30-2017, 09:28 PM
Good job! Now let's get some runs!

Reds Fanatic
05-30-2017, 09:29 PM
Really good outing by Lorenzen tonight. I agree he is probably their best bet to find another starter

reds44
05-30-2017, 09:29 PM
Hell of a job by Lorenzen.

BluegrassRedleg
05-30-2017, 09:29 PM
and this is an argument for re-signing him?

No. I've never suggested that. He needs to be dealt. I'm just saying don't expect the return in July that you could get with his current numbers. People are saying, "Are you crazy? Who wouldn't want a SS with Cozart's numbers?" And they're right, except that those will not be his numbers deep into summer.


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PutPeteIn
05-30-2017, 09:29 PM
MLO with 3 goose eggs.

Raisor
05-30-2017, 09:29 PM
I remember how bad Suarez was at third last season. I don't remember him being bad at all at short. He was moved to third because Cozart was coming back from injury, not because Suarez couldn't play SS.

Every single report states that Suarez has a tremendous work ethic. I have no doubt he could play short again, and play it well.

reds44
05-30-2017, 09:30 PM
No. I've never suggested that. He needs to be dealt. I'm just saying don't expect the return in July that you could get with his current numbers. People are saying, "Are you crazy? Who wouldn't want a SS with Cozart's numbers." And they're right, except that those will not be his numbers deep into summer.


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It's going to take an incredible tank job for his numbers to not be strong come middle-late July though.

Wolves198921
05-30-2017, 09:30 PM
Uhhhh I have to wake up at four. Game goes into extras I won't be able to watch.