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Reds Fanatic
08-06-2017, 11:02 AM
Cardinals

1. Matt Carpenter (L) 1B
2. Tommy Pham (R) CF
3. Paul DeJong (R) SS
4. Jose Martinez (R) LF
5. Yadier Molina (R) C
6. Kolten Wong (L) 2B
7. Randal Grichuk (R) RF
8. Greg Garcia (L) 3B
9. Adam Wainwright (R) P

Reds

1. Billy Hamilton (S) CF
2. Zack Cozart (R) SS
3. Joey Votto (L) 1B
4. Adam Duvall (R) LF
5. Scooter Gennett (L) 2B
6. Eugenio Suarez (R) 3B
7. Jesse Winker (L) RF
8. Tucker Barnhart (S) C
9. Homer Bailey (R) P

Raisor
08-06-2017, 11:43 AM
I hate the Cardinals and their stupid fans

KittyDuran
08-06-2017, 12:18 PM
Tarp is still on and it's a light drizzle-should start on time.


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OnBaseMachine
08-06-2017, 01:01 PM
I liked Winker at the top of the lineup.

RedTeamGo!
08-06-2017, 01:07 PM
I liked Winker at the top of the lineup.

http://www.cincinnativseveryone.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Bryan-2.jpg

Powel Crosley
08-06-2017, 01:16 PM
They caught Pham sleeping.

Tom Servo
08-06-2017, 01:16 PM
lol Homer walked Pham with one out but gets a strikeout and then picks off Pham to end the inning.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 01:16 PM
Nice start to the game for Homer

The Operator
08-06-2017, 01:19 PM
I just hate every single word that leaves Thom's mouth


Billy singles to start us off!

The Operator
08-06-2017, 01:21 PM
Cozart just missed that 1-0 pitch

- - - Updated - - -

Welcome back Zack!

Singles and we've got two on, nobody out for Joseph Daniel

Powel Crosley
08-06-2017, 01:24 PM
Vottomatic!

The Operator
08-06-2017, 01:24 PM
Joey!!!!!!

3-0 Reds!!!

Tom Servo
08-06-2017, 01:25 PM
Votto! :jump:

BluegrassRedleg
08-06-2017, 01:25 PM
Votto makes Wainwright angry. [emoji3]


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Big Klu
08-06-2017, 01:27 PM
Congratulations to Joey Votto, who becomes the sixth player in Reds history to hit 250 home runs!


Updated Reds HR list (players in italics are active):

Reds 100-Home Run Club
1. Johnny Bench - 389
2. Frank Robinson - 324
3. Tony Perez - 287
4. Adam Dunn - 270
5. Ted Kluszewski - 251
6. Joey Votto - 250
7. George Foster - 244
8. Jay Bruce - 233
9. Ken Griffey, Jr. - 210
10. Eric Davis - 203
11. Barry Larkin - 198
12. Brandon Phillips - 191
13. Vada Pinson - 186
14. Wally Post - 172
15. Gus Bell - 160
16. Joe Morgan - 152
16. Pete Rose - 152
18. Lee May - 147
19. Dan Driessen - 133
20. Reggie Sanders - 125
21. Ernie Lombardi - 120
22. Sean Casey - 118
23. Frank McCormick - 110
24. Todd Frazier - 108
25. Dave Parker - 107
26. Chris Sabo - 104
27. Dave Concepcion - 101

WrongVerb
08-06-2017, 01:27 PM
I think there's about 5 people i the majors who could have hit that pitch, let alone hit it for a home run. Votto is amazing.

Tom Servo
08-06-2017, 01:27 PM
That was #29, which was Joey's totals in 2011, 2015, and 2016.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 01:30 PM
Wainwright seems like an OK dude but I hope The Reds destroy him today.

I've always hated him because, you know, wrong laundry...

- - - Updated - - -

Gennett singles

BluegrassRedleg
08-06-2017, 01:30 PM
5 up, 5 on


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WrongVerb
08-06-2017, 01:31 PM
Also, this inning is getting more fun by the batter.

Tom Servo
08-06-2017, 01:31 PM
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SLN/SLN201308280.shtml

Can't believe this game, also Bailey vs. Wainwright, was nearly 4 years ago now. It was so satisfying.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 01:33 PM
Geno walks.

Bases loaded and still nobody out


Cardinals getting action in the bullpen going

BluegrassRedleg
08-06-2017, 01:34 PM
6 up, 6 on


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Tom Servo
08-06-2017, 01:34 PM
lol this rules

The Operator
08-06-2017, 01:36 PM
Lol of course


Grounder to first and Duvall is out at home on the tag play.

Tom Servo
08-06-2017, 01:36 PM
that didn't rule

BluegrassRedleg
08-06-2017, 01:36 PM
Of course the Reds eventually do that.


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The Operator
08-06-2017, 01:36 PM
IBB to Barnhart

cards setting up the Homer Bailey grand slam

Reds Fanatic
08-06-2017, 01:39 PM
A 45 pitch inning for Wainwright

The Operator
08-06-2017, 01:39 PM
Homer K's

Only get 3 runs out of that but managed to make Wainwright throw 45 pitches

OnBaseMachine
08-06-2017, 01:41 PM
That may have been the most disappointing three run inning I can remember.

PutPeteIn
08-06-2017, 01:41 PM
3 runs
45 pitches
Turn the batting order over
Votto is hottest hitter in the world
I'll take it...
3-0 Reds moving to 2nd.

Big Klu
08-06-2017, 01:42 PM
THom likes Arizona better than Colorado for the wild card.

Big surprise.

kaldaniels
08-06-2017, 01:42 PM
David Letterman in the crowd.

Tom Servo
08-06-2017, 01:42 PM
"I still like that Arizona team over Colorado."

Yeah we know Thom.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 01:45 PM
Martinez destroys a ball for a double off the wall

2 on, nobody out



BOOOOOO Yadier Molina coming up

- - - Updated - - -


"I still like that Arizona team over Colorado."

Yeah we know Thom.

Lol no kidding

- - - Updated - - -

Molina singles


Cardinals trying to get those runs right back

- - - Updated - - -

3-1 now on an RBI double from Wong

Still nobody out


Uuuggghhhh

Tom Servo
08-06-2017, 01:45 PM
lol what a stupid 'double'

BluegrassRedleg
08-06-2017, 01:45 PM
I can already see where this one is headed. I am the 3-Eyed Raven.


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The Operator
08-06-2017, 01:46 PM
Tie ball game

Homer fooling absolutely nobody

Reds Fanatic
08-06-2017, 01:46 PM
That lead disappeared quickly

Tom Servo
08-06-2017, 01:46 PM
welp

kaldaniels
08-06-2017, 01:46 PM
Looks like Homer and Wainwright need to hit the Senior Tour.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 01:46 PM
4-3 Cardinals now

Jeebus Homer

Wolves198921
08-06-2017, 01:47 PM
Up 3-0 bases loaded with zero outs to being down like five minutes later.

When's football starting?

Powel Crosley
08-06-2017, 01:47 PM
Can we restart this inning please

Tom Servo
08-06-2017, 01:47 PM
This is batting practice.

Kc61
08-06-2017, 01:47 PM
Bailey is getting smoked out there. Looks like batting practice.

Reds Fanatic
08-06-2017, 01:47 PM
Bailey's ERA back over 8

Tom Servo
08-06-2017, 01:48 PM
Billy looks hurt yet again. Dude can barely go a game without shaking himself up.

757690
08-06-2017, 01:48 PM
Wainwright: "That's was the worst inning a pitcher could have."

Bailey: "Hold my beer."

The Operator
08-06-2017, 01:49 PM
If The Reds go into next year expecting anything out of Desclafani or Homer I'm going to be furious.

If they are healthy and produce, great. But don't count on them for ANYTHING

The Operator
08-06-2017, 01:50 PM
Carpenter K's


Homer's stuff looks a little crisper now. Almost wonder if the long inning was detrimental to him.

Reds Fanatic
08-06-2017, 01:50 PM
Bonilla warming up

The Operator
08-06-2017, 01:51 PM
Pham K's


Pretty sure that was a result of a guy coming off arm problems having to sit through a 45 pitch inning by the opponent.

PutPeteIn
08-06-2017, 01:52 PM
Nice bounce back by Bailey stranding the 5th run on third by K'ing Carpenter and Pham.
Back to work boys.

Big Klu
08-06-2017, 01:52 PM
If The Reds go into next year expecting anything out of Desclafani or Homer I'm going to be furious.

If they are healthy and produce, great. But don't count on them for ANYTHING

I might put Finnegan in that group, too.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 01:54 PM
I might put Finnegan in that group, too.

I'm a little more optimistic on Finnegan but you are absolutely right.


Now watch, The Reds will pencil those guys in 1-3 next year in the rotation and then say "Gee fans, what else can we do? Our horses are injured!!! D'oooh"

Big Klu
08-06-2017, 01:56 PM
WTH does "This game is closing in on 50 minutes young" mean, THom?

Idiot.

BluegrassRedleg
08-06-2017, 01:57 PM
Watch how easy the Reds get Wainwright to the 5th inning now.


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The Operator
08-06-2017, 01:58 PM
Votto walks

Kc61
08-06-2017, 02:00 PM
I'm a little more optimistic on Finnegan but you are absolutely right.


Now watch, The Reds will pencil those guys in 1-3 next year in the rotation and then say "Gee fans, what else can we do? Our horses are injured!!! D'oooh"

I guess they can acquire four new starters and four new relievers.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:04 PM
Duvall grounds out but at least He and Votto made Wainwright run his pitch count up some more.

- - - Updated - - -


I guess they can acquire four new starters and four new relievers.

So are you saying we *should* go into next year banking on those guys?

mhs95_06
08-06-2017, 02:04 PM
Up 3-0 bases loaded with zero outs to being down like five minutes later.


Duvall must have been dogging it a bit to get tagged out at home after Carpenter takes four steps to get the force-out and then throws off the wrong foot.

PutPeteIn
08-06-2017, 02:05 PM
Wainwright may very well be done after 3 inns today.
Pitch count out 74 after 2? That's insane.

Tadasimha
08-06-2017, 02:05 PM
Watch how easy the Reds get Wainwright to the 5th inning now.


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Not after Duvalls ab - waino at 69 pitches through two

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:06 PM
Hit parade for Cards continues

1 on, nobody out

OnBaseMachine
08-06-2017, 02:07 PM
Duvall refused that walk.

Big Klu
08-06-2017, 02:07 PM
THom with D-Backs reference #2, and "Good stuff" #1.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:08 PM
Martinez walks

2 on, nobody out


Homer ain't long for this game

BluegrassRedleg
08-06-2017, 02:09 PM
Not after Duvalls ab - waino at 69 pitches through two

Do not underestimate the power of the dark side.


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The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:09 PM
Thom personally offended by Bailey's struggles

- - - Updated - - -

Molina flies out to Billy

Both runners advance. 1 down

Kc61
08-06-2017, 02:12 PM
Duvall grounds out but at least He and Votto made Wainwright run his pitch count up some more.

- - - Updated - - -



So are you saying we *should* go into next year banking on those guys?

They have no choice but to expect a contribution from some of Bailey, Disco, and Finnegan. They can't replace the whole group. They are paying Bailey a lot of money.

They should beef up the pitching somewhat, without wrecking the whole farm system with trades.

But it can't just be Castillo and pray for rain. They will have to use that veteran trio and/or young in-house guys to a major extent.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:13 PM
Wong pops out to Gennett. 2 down

C'min Homer keep the score where it is

kaldaniels
08-06-2017, 02:13 PM
That Votto home run is a perfect example of something I've mentioned recently.

A pet peeve of mine is going back and saying "well that wouldn't have been a homer in most stadiums." For instance Doug often referenced some home runs Homer gave up in Yankee Stadium that way ad nauseum.

But a few months from now when we are taking about Votto's great year is anyone going to step up and say - well that HR on August 6th shouldn't really count it was a GABP special. Didn't think so.

A home run is a home run. Park factors be damned.

Not trying to pounce on anyone - that was just a clear example.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:14 PM
Grichuk pops out.

Nice tight rope walking by Homer there. Still 4-3

Big Klu
08-06-2017, 02:15 PM
Two foul popups, one to Gennett and one to Barnhart, and Bailey is out of the inning.

PutPeteIn
08-06-2017, 02:15 PM
Game should be 7-3 but instead bailey shows balls and it's only 4-3.
I'm lovin it.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:16 PM
They have no choice but to expect a contribution from some of Bailey, Disco, and Finnegan. They can't replace the whole group. They are paying Bailey a lot of money.

They should beef up the pitching somewhat, without wrecking the whole farm system with trades.

But it can't just be Castillo and pray for rain. They will have to use that veteran trio and/or young in-house guys to a major extent.
I guess I'm just less optimistic than you. I'm sick of losing now for the fourth straight year.

I hope you're right and I'm wrong.

I'd like to end next year talking about progress instead of who The Reds will take with their third straight top 5 pick.


...as for as Castillo goes, I hope he's around next year. Price has been riding him hard.

kaldaniels
08-06-2017, 02:17 PM
Game should be 7-3 but instead bailey shows balls and it's only 4-3.
I'm lovin it.

I'm trying to think of something clever to say since we've been told Stephenson has no balls but I'm coming up empty.

kaldaniels
08-06-2017, 02:18 PM
Can someone please crush that slow curve of Wainwright.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:19 PM
Gennett goes full count but grounds out, 1 down.


76 pitches now for Wainwright

Ironman92
08-06-2017, 02:19 PM
Couple things as I caught up from DVR play...

The first AB by Joey he had it 3-1 and he swung at a pitch that sure looked like a called ball 4. You rarely see Joey swing at that pitch....but instead of the walk he hit a 3 run HR.

Duvall with 0 outs and bases loaded on 3rd base....he did not break on contact and cost Reds and out and more importantly a run. He hesitated just for part of a second...easily the difference in that play

Tom Servo
08-06-2017, 02:20 PM
Strange how giving someone who succeeded in a part-time role regular ABs has reduced the effectiveness of that player.

dougdirt
08-06-2017, 02:21 PM
That Votto home run is a perfect example of something I've mentioned recently.

A pet peeve of mine is going back and saying "well that wouldn't have been a homer in most stadiums." For instance Doug often referenced some home runs Homer gave up in Yankee Stadium that way ad nauseum.

But a few months from now when we are taking about Votto's great year is anyone going to step up and say - well that HR on August 6th shouldn't really count it was a GABP special. Didn't think so.

A home run is a home run. Park factors be damned.

Not trying to pounce on anyone - that was just a clear example.

I often reference it?

I don't know that I've referenced it more than once, much less often.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:21 PM
Geno lines out, 2 down

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:23 PM
Cowboy just said "off the hook" hahaha

Tom Servo
08-06-2017, 02:23 PM
Oh c'mon, Brantley suggesting that sending Garrett down played a big part in his failures. There are hundreds of examples of teams sending down talented kids for service time or arm preservation for a week and they didn't proceed to get their brains beaten in.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:24 PM
Winker walks on a full count

87 pitches now for Wainwright after 2.2

PutPeteIn
08-06-2017, 02:24 PM
Get him to 100 in 3!!

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:26 PM
Barnhart drills one but right at Carpenter, the guy who walked multiple times yesterday despite hitting TWO FOURTY (or so I'm told).

- - - Updated - - -

88 pitches for Wainwright after 3

- - - Updated - - -

Think they send Wainwright back out for the 5th?

dougdirt
08-06-2017, 02:26 PM
Oh c'mon, Brantley suggesting that sending Garrett down played a big part in his failures. There are hundreds of examples of teams sending down talented kids for service time or arm preservation for a week and they didn't proceed to get their brains beaten in.

I wish people would really stop promoting this garbage that Garrett was pitching well when they sent him down. In his last 3 starts before going down he had 11 walks and 7 strikeouts in 16.1 innings pitched. He had 3 good starts to begin the year. The next three? Uh.... he may have only given up 2 runs in 2 of those starts, but he was playing with fire and getting away with it.

Tadasimha
08-06-2017, 02:26 PM
Get him to 100 in 3!!

Or swing at the first pitch and line out so the count is 88

Kc61
08-06-2017, 02:27 PM
I guess I'm just less optimistic than you. I'm sick of losing now for the fourth straight year.

I hope you're right and I'm wrong.

I'd like to end next year talking about progress instead of who The Reds will take with their third straight top 5 pick.


...as for as Castillo goes, I hope he's around next year. Price has been riding him hard.

But what are you suggesting? You say don't rely on this one or that one for next year.

Who replaces them? What about all the money due Homer?

I"d like to see Reds add some pitching, but most of the staff next year will be current in-house guys. That's just the reality. I don't see any way around it.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:27 PM
4 pitch walk to Garcia

Tom Servo
08-06-2017, 02:28 PM
I wish people would really stop promoting this garbage that Garrett was pitching well when they sent him down. In his last 3 starts before going down he had 11 walks and 7 strikeouts in 16.1 innings pitched. He had 3 good starts to begin the year. The next three? Uh.... he may have only given up 2 runs in 2 of those starts, but he was playing with fire and getting away with it.
I have to think some people have their timeline mixed up and think he was sent down after that dominant start against the Orioles. Because yeah, he was already regressing when the Reds sent him down.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:32 PM
But what are you suggesting? You say don't rely on this one or that one for next year.

Who replaces them? What about all the money due Homer?

I"d like to see Reds add some pitching, but most of the staff next year will be current in-house guys. That's just the reality.

Not really looking to go deep into in this thread, I just think we're setting ourselves up for another long summer if we bank on those 2-3 guys as anything other than lottery tickets next year.


Now, whether the guys who do (or don't) take the lion's share of next year's inning? If they come from in house guys who are performing well, great. Maybe Mahle comes up and does well. Maybe Stephenson and Romano do well. I'd love it.

I just think if we're counting on Homer (don't care about the money due to him honestly, it has nothing to do with whether we can depend on him for innings), a guy who hasn't pitched anything close to a full season since 2013 and Disco, a guy who is missing a huge portion of this year with UCL issues, well, I'm not optimistic that we wont be disappointed.

- - - Updated - - -

5-3 Cardinals now. Homer fooling nobody once again

kaldaniels
08-06-2017, 02:32 PM
I often reference it?

I don't know that I've referenced it more than once, much less often.

Foggy memory...it's been awhile admittedly but you always fight on park factors and this is one situation.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?94492-Homer-Bailey-what-to-do-with-him&p=2643945&viewfull=1#post2643945

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?95648-Great-American-Small-park-Pft-check-out-Yankee-Stadium&p=2602925&viewfull=1#post2602925

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:33 PM
Lol Thom just went out of his way to defend his Matt Carpenter commments last night

Tom Servo
08-06-2017, 02:34 PM
Barnhart and Bailey couldn't decide who was taking it

Tom Servo
08-06-2017, 02:35 PM
That's not JD Martinez, Thom.

Ironman92
08-06-2017, 02:36 PM
Watching Homer today is like making a 12ft putt for triple bogey

Powel Crosley
08-06-2017, 02:36 PM
Welp

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:36 PM
Grand slam

You could see it coming a mile away.

9-3 Cardinals

mhs95_06
08-06-2017, 02:36 PM
The threat of the runner on 3rd cost Tucker getting an out on that play. It would be nice if Homer realized Tucker's dilemma, and took charge and made the play himself.

Tom Servo
08-06-2017, 02:36 PM
Why was Bailey even left in?

50YrRedsFan
08-06-2017, 02:36 PM
Bailey doesn't have a swing and miss pitch at this point in his comeback.

Ironman92
08-06-2017, 02:36 PM
Check that....watching Homer today is like missing a 4 foot putt for a quadruple bogey

BluegrassRedleg
08-06-2017, 02:36 PM
The second Winker bounced to first, this was a guaranteed ass-kicking.


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paintmered
08-06-2017, 02:37 PM
Oh hell.

757690
08-06-2017, 02:37 PM
I wish people would really stop promoting this garbage that Garrett was pitching well when they sent him down. In his last 3 starts before going down he had 11 walks and 7 strikeouts in 16.1 innings pitched. He had 3 good starts to begin the year. The next three? Uh.... he may have only given up 2 runs in 2 of those starts, but he was playing with fire and getting away with it.

I'm not going to start a big tangent debate during a game thread, so I will post this and leave it.

How good or bad Garrett was pitching had little or nothing to do with how Garrett performed after he was sent down. So I disagree with Brantley here.

But Garrett didn't continue his regression after being sent down. He imploded and has continued to implode in AAA. It's hard to argue that being sent down didn't have a strong negative affect on his development.

PutPeteIn
08-06-2017, 02:37 PM
Homer living up to his name.

Ironman92
08-06-2017, 02:37 PM
That's not JD Martinez, Thom.

Hit like him

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:37 PM
Why was Bailey even left in?

I bet we're teaching him how to go deep into games

Crumbley
08-06-2017, 02:38 PM
Homer Bailey is bad, folks

Tom Servo
08-06-2017, 02:38 PM
I'm not going to start a big tangent debate during a game thread, so I will post this and leave it.

How good or bad Garrett was pitching had little or nothing to do with how Garrett performed after he was sent down. So I disagree with Brantley here.

But Garrett didn't continue his regression after being sent down. He imploded and has continued to implode in AAA. It's hard to argue that being sent down didn't have a strong negative affect on his development.
It's not hard to argue at all. He was pitching poorly before being sent down.

757690
08-06-2017, 02:38 PM
Remember in the first inning when we were giddy about this being a blowout against Wainwright? That was awesome.

Tom Servo
08-06-2017, 02:38 PM
Homer Bailey is bad, folks
He is, but you disliked him when he was good anyway.

Crumbley
08-06-2017, 02:39 PM
He is, but you disliked him when he was good anyway.

I enjoyed those two games.

Big Klu
08-06-2017, 02:39 PM
Price secures the portal after the equine has escaped.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:40 PM
I enjoyed those two games.

If you think the two no hitters are the only good thing Homer did before the deal then you weren't watching.

Kc61
08-06-2017, 02:40 PM
Not really looking to go deep into in this thread, I just think we're setting ourselves up for another long summer if we bank on those 2-3 guys as anything other than lottery tickets next year.


Now, whether the guys who do (or don't) take the lion's share of next year's inning? If they come from in house guys who are performing well, great. Maybe Major comes up and does well. Maybe Stephenson and Romano do well. I'd love it.

I just think if we're counting on Homer (don't care about the money due to him honestly, it has nothing to do with whether we can depend on him for innings), a guy who hasn't pitched anything close to a full season since 2013 and Disco, a guy who is missing a huge portion of this year with UCL issues, well, I'm not optimistic that we won he disappointed.

- - - Updated - - -

5-3 Cardinals now. Homer fooling nobody once again

We have to evaluate next year thru a realistic lens.

Bailey is guaranteed $21 million next season. He is going nowhere.

Disco and Finnegan will be counted on to some extent, with some backup, the Reds know they have injuries.

The Reds will also expect a contribution from their young guys like Castillo, Stephenson, Romano, etc.

And will add some people. And maybe convert Lorenzen to SP, maybe.

That's it, there is no other choice, they will not acquire ten pitchers, or ignore Bailey's contract, or write off the injured guys. Just hope that they have good healthy seasons and the team does well.

757690
08-06-2017, 02:40 PM
It's not hard to argue at all. He was pitching poorly before being sent down.

lol. you literally didn't read anything I wrote. Moving on...

paintmered
08-06-2017, 02:41 PM
We now return you to your regularly scheduled mop-up bullpen session.

PutPeteIn
08-06-2017, 02:41 PM
Barnum and Bailey

Errrr

Barnhart and Bailey

mhs95_06
08-06-2017, 02:41 PM
Another game turned over early to the JVs in the bullpen.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:42 PM
Unless someone can propose a viable alternative, then you have to evaluate next year thru a realistic lens.

Bailey is guaranteed $21 million next season. He is going nowhere.

Disco and Finnegan will be counted on to some extent, with some backup, the Reds know they have injuries.

The Reds will also expect a contribution from their young guys like Castillo, Stephenson, Lorenzen, etc.

And will add some people.

That's it, there is no other choice, they will not acquire ten pitchers, or ignore Bailey's contract, or write off the injured guys.

Like I said man I really do hope you're right and I'm wrong. I hope we get 600 IP from this trio next year.


Four straight years of losing in spectacular fashion is starting to wear on me.

dougdirt
08-06-2017, 02:43 PM
Foggy memory...it's been awhile admittedly but you always fight on park factors and this is one situation.



Well, that's because park factors matter.....

Ironman92
08-06-2017, 02:44 PM
That Votto home run is a perfect example of something I've mentioned recently.

A pet peeve of mine is going back and saying "well that wouldn't have been a homer in most stadiums." For instance Doug often referenced some home runs Homer gave up in Yankee Stadium that way ad nauseum.

But a few months from now when we are taking about Votto's great year is anyone going to step up and say - well that HR on August 6th shouldn't really count it was a GABP special. Didn't think so.

A home run is a home run. Park factors be damned.

Not trying to pounce on anyone - that was just a clear example.

Thom reads RZ and is trolling you

dougdirt
08-06-2017, 02:45 PM
But Garrett didn't continue his regression after being sent down. He imploded and has continued to implode in AAA. It's hard to argue that being sent down didn't have a strong negative affect on his development.

I'll point out that we found out that Garrett hid a hip injury for a month from the team. That month coincides very well with his absolutely falling apart, and subsequent never really turning it around. It's very, very easy to argue being sent down had nothing to do with his situation.

Ironman92
08-06-2017, 02:46 PM
Joey Gallo just hit one off the parking garage in Minnesota lol.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:47 PM
Grand slam #2 about to happen

Norse1978
08-06-2017, 02:47 PM
We have to evaluate next year thru a realistic lens.

Bailey is guaranteed $21 million next season. He is going nowhere.

Disco and Finnegan will be counted on to some extent, with some backup, the Reds know they have injuries.

The Reds will also expect a contribution from their young guys like Castillo, Stephenson, Romano, etc.

And will add some people. And maybe convert Lorenzen to SP, maybe.

That's it, there is no other choice, they will not acquire ten pitchers, or ignore Bailey's contract, or write off the injured guys. Just hope that they have good healthy seasons and the team does well.

I would hope if Bailey is pitching like this next year he doesn't stay in the rotation

Big Klu
08-06-2017, 02:48 PM
THom sighs deeply into the microphone after Bonilla walks Garcia.

paintmered
08-06-2017, 02:48 PM
Grand slam #2 about to happen

Yarp.

Ironman92
08-06-2017, 02:48 PM
Hoping the Reds walk the #8 hitter 4x and Reds give up 27 hits and Reds lose 22-3 and Thom resigns his position.

Powel Crosley
08-06-2017, 02:48 PM
Thom just makes a bad game even more depressing to listen to. Can you sigh into the microphone any louder?

757690
08-06-2017, 02:49 PM
I'll point out that we found out that Garrett hid a hip injury for a month from the team. That month coincides very well with his absolutely falling apart, and subsequent never really turning it around. It's very, very easy to argue being sent down had nothing to do with his situation.

Good info. But if he's injured he shouldn't be pitching. If that's the Reds argument, it means they've been pitching a young pitcher for months while he's injured. Far more damning, imo.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:49 PM
11-3 on the ground rule double

paintmered
08-06-2017, 02:49 PM
Hoping the Reds walk the #8 hitter 4x and Reds give up 27 hits and Reds lose 22-3 and Thom resigns his position.

That would be one heck of a silver lining to today's otherwise dumpster fire.

Tom Servo
08-06-2017, 02:49 PM
Let this be Bryan Price's last game

Kc61
08-06-2017, 02:50 PM
Like I said man I really do hope you're right and I'm wrong. I hope we get 600 IP from this trio next year.


Four straight years of losing in spectacular fashion is starting to wear on me.

I'm not predicting anything. I'm simply saying that the Reds will of necessity have to "bank on" many in-house pitchers, including Bailey and the injured duo. Whatever.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:50 PM
10 ER charged to Bailey now


Unless that was a foul ball

PutPeteIn
08-06-2017, 02:50 PM
This is the worst.
Seriously this team is in shambles.

WVRedsFan
08-06-2017, 02:51 PM
If the Reds do not get reinforcements through free agency and/or trades, this is going to be more than what we went through from the turn of the century until 2010. Homer may get back, but Finnegan and Disco are iffy and it's apparent that our talent in the minors is not ready or will not by 2018. At that point there will be barely 10,000 at GABP on a good day.

Norse1978
08-06-2017, 02:51 PM
Let this be Bryan Price's last game

Hopefully he takes Homer with him.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:51 PM
Hey a replay call went against The Reds! Shocking

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:53 PM
hey Thom, Carpenter just doubled to make it 13-3


Bet you wish we'd walked him ya blowhard

Ironman92
08-06-2017, 02:53 PM
Waiting for circus music

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:53 PM
Brantley; "This has turned out to not be a very pretty inning."


Lol. Ya don't say?

PutPeteIn
08-06-2017, 02:54 PM
Why is Bonilla pitching in the Majors?
What a pos

paintmered
08-06-2017, 02:54 PM
Uncle.

Big Klu
08-06-2017, 02:55 PM
Carpenter didn't walk.

How can a guy who is hitting .240 get a pitch good enough to hit a two-run triple! I mean, .240!

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:56 PM
Why is Bonilla pitching in the Majors?
What a pos

I agree, he is a bad person because he did not perform well today.

PutPeteIn
08-06-2017, 02:56 PM
Well, Kentucky football and basketball will cure what ails ya Reds fans...

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:56 PM
Uncle.

What on earth does Drew Stubbs have to do with this.

Kc61
08-06-2017, 02:56 PM
At this pace, Cards will score 29.25 runs this game.

PutPeteIn
08-06-2017, 02:57 PM
I agree, he is a bad person because he did not perform well today.

Stop acting like he has ever pitched well look at his near 9 era.

mhs95_06
08-06-2017, 02:58 PM
Price secures the portal after the equine has escaped.

I don't think Price had anything substantial to secure it with.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:58 PM
Stop acting like he has ever pitched well look at his near 9 era.

I don't care how bad he is.

In what way does that make him a "pos"?

kaldaniels
08-06-2017, 02:59 PM
Well, that's because park factors matter.....

They do.

But my point is...do you think anyone is going to reference Votto's home run today like you often referenced the Yankee Stadium home tuns? No.

So use park factors when they are built into metrics. But to cherry pick them is wrong.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 02:59 PM
Sideshow Cecil takes the mound for St. Louis.

PutPeteIn
08-06-2017, 03:00 PM
I don't care how bad he is.

In what way does that make him a "pos"?

Ok let's play the holier than thou card because Reds baseball sucks ass.
Thank God Im not from Ohio.

Almost time for Ky football and then basketball. You guys in Ohio can keep the losing.

KeefeCato
08-06-2017, 03:00 PM
Well, Kentucky football and basketball will cure what ails ya Reds fans...

Your Kwiltfor3atbuzz. You clown up Rupps raftors and Redzone.

Tom Servo
08-06-2017, 03:02 PM
Ok let's play the holier than thou card because Reds baseball sucks ass.
Thank God Im not from Ohio.

Almost time for Ky football and then basketball. You guys in Ohio can keep the losing.
Kentucky football sucks

The Operator
08-06-2017, 03:03 PM
Ok let's play the holier than tho card because Reds baseball sucks ass.

Dude, you're the one who was saying they were World Series contenders in April and May. And now that they inevitably nose dived, we're resorting to calling players names like "pos"? Come on.


Thank God Im not from Ohio. Lol

WVRedsFan
08-06-2017, 03:04 PM
To add fuel to the argument on Price...He left Bonilla in while the Cardinals were hitting rockets left and right to add insult to injury. Bonilla allowed 3 hits and 3 runs in 2/3 of a inning after the Grand Slam. Saving arms? For what. You've got a sellout crowd, but who cares?

Kc61
08-06-2017, 03:04 PM
This game should re-energize the "let's get a high draft pick" thread.

WVRedsFan
08-06-2017, 03:06 PM
FSO shows droves of people heading home. Just what ownership wants? Mercy.

Wonderful Monds
08-06-2017, 03:06 PM
Ok let's play the holier than thou card because Reds baseball sucks ass.
Thank God Im not from Ohio.

Almost time for Ky football and then basketball. You guys in Ohio can keep the losing.

Biggest wanker on the board is Kentucky Wildcats fan in shocker

WVRedsFan
08-06-2017, 03:06 PM
This game should re-energize the "let's get a high draft pick" thread.Pfft. A lot of good that's done.

Big Klu
08-06-2017, 03:07 PM
THom with "Good stuff" #2.

Kc61
08-06-2017, 03:07 PM
To add fuel to the argument on Price...He left Bonilla in while the Cardinals were hitting rockets left and right to add insult to injury. Bonilla allowed 3 hits and 3 runs in 2/3 of a inning after the Grand Slam. Saving arms? For what. You've got a sellout crowd, but who cares?

This is exactly why Bonilla was brought up, to absorb mop up innings. He should pitch the rest of this game, rocket shots or not.

CirclevilleRed
08-06-2017, 03:08 PM
Homer Bailey is bad, folks

He's the team's well paid, mediocre Ace. Gotta love it!

The Operator
08-06-2017, 03:08 PM
Brantley and Thom talking about how to properly cut cake now.


God help us

Kc61
08-06-2017, 03:09 PM
Thom and Jeff now talking about cake eating.

I'm out.

WVRedsFan
08-06-2017, 03:09 PM
Cake? Did someone say cake?

Powel Crosley
08-06-2017, 03:10 PM
Yeah, I'm checking out of this game. Time to watch some racing at Watkins Glen.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 03:10 PM
1-2-3 inning for Bonilla

WVRedsFan
08-06-2017, 03:12 PM
Yeah, I'm checking out of this game. Time to watch some racing at Watkins Glen.I'm there.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 03:13 PM
A base runner!

paintmered
08-06-2017, 03:14 PM
Over to MLS for me.

The Operator
08-06-2017, 03:14 PM
Duvall singles

Reds have 2 on, nobody out here in the 5th

Tom Servo
08-06-2017, 03:17 PM
I still want to trade Gennett for pitching.

WVRedsFan
08-06-2017, 03:18 PM
Before I check out to cover the race, Would it make sense to bat Scooter only against right handers and play Peraza against lefties? Scooter is sooo bad right now and especially against southpaws.

dougdirt
08-06-2017, 03:23 PM
They do.

But my point is...do you think anyone is going to reference Votto's home run today like you often referenced the Yankee Stadium home tuns? No.

So use park factors when they are built into metrics. But to cherry pick them is wrong.

Yes, I do think that people look at home runs hit by Cincinnati Reds players and go "Well, they do play at Great American Smallpark".

Big Klu
08-06-2017, 03:23 PM
Before I check out to cover the race, Would it make sense to bat Scooter only against right handers and play Peraza against lefties? Scooter is sooo bad right now and especially against southpaws.

Yes, but platooning seems to be taboo in today's game, both among managers/front offices and fans. Today's mantra is "play a set eight-man lineup".

Ron Gant
08-06-2017, 03:24 PM
Ok let's play the holier than thou card because Reds baseball sucks ass.
Thank God Im not from Ohio.

Almost time for Ky football and then basketball. You guys in Ohio can keep the losing.

LOL, is this for real?

Big Klu
08-06-2017, 03:26 PM
David Letterman looks like John Brown.

https://www.nps.gov/hafe/learn/historyculture/images/jb_portrait.jpg

WVRedsFan
08-06-2017, 03:28 PM
Saw him last year at Indy. Someone had to tell me who he was. On purpose, I'd guess.

Big Klu
08-06-2017, 03:31 PM
Saw him last year at Indy. Someone had to tell me who he was. On purpose, I'd guess.

Earlier this year, Dave was a guest host on TCM with Ben Mankiewicz, so I had already seen him with the long white beard.

dougdirt
08-06-2017, 03:31 PM
Ok let's play the holier than thou card because Reds baseball sucks ass.
Thank God Im not from Ohio.

Almost time for Ky football and then basketball. You guys in Ohio can keep the losing.

Kentucky football.

https://media3.giphy.com/media/kr9meJOW6Dz6o/giphy.gif

BUTLER REDSFAN
08-06-2017, 03:33 PM
Just got back from an hour n the future to tell u the final will be 18-4

Ironman92
08-06-2017, 03:34 PM
Kentucky football.

https://media3.giphy.com/media/kr9meJOW6Dz6o/giphy.gif

Jared Lorenzen now weighs 502 lbs...and I'm not trying to be sarcastic or funny

WVRedsFan
08-06-2017, 03:35 PM
Alcantara. Wow.

Norse1978
08-06-2017, 03:38 PM
LOL, is this for real?
I'm a Kentucky fan and even I got to admit Kentucky football is the poster child for losing. Lol

Ron Gant
08-06-2017, 03:39 PM
Jared Lorenzen now weighs 502 lbs...and I'm not trying to be sarcastic or funny

This was back when he was a slim 320 pound QB.
12721

Big Klu
08-06-2017, 03:39 PM
Alcantara. Wow!

kaldaniels
08-06-2017, 03:43 PM
Yes, I do think that people look at home runs hit by Cincinnati Reds players and go "Well, they do play at Great American Smallpark".

But would you Doug, if someone says say "Votto has hit 29 home runs this year" jump in and chirp that the one hit on August 6th wouldn't be out of most parks? Cause you did that a lot with Bailey and his Yankee Stadium home runs. I just want things played down the middle.

JaxRed
08-06-2017, 03:50 PM
If Cozart is to be handled gingerly, why is he still in the game?

Big Klu
08-06-2017, 03:52 PM
If Cozart is to be handled gingerly, why is he still in the game?

I was wondering the same thing.

I see that Stuart Turner has finally gotten into the game.

Big Klu
08-06-2017, 04:01 PM
THom with "Great stuff" #1.

Tom Servo
08-06-2017, 04:02 PM
Suarez homered, btw.

Big Klu
08-06-2017, 04:06 PM
So Jim Day is interviewing David Letterman, and THom says, "No way, Jim Day. You aren't sending it back to us!"

And JD says, "Yes I am, because Dave is done talking to me."

And David Letterman says, "Nice to meet you. Goodbye."

Crumbley
08-06-2017, 04:09 PM
So Jim Day is interviewing David Letterman, and THom says, "No way, Jim Day. You aren't sending it back to us!"

And JD says, "Yes I am, because Dave is done talking to me."

And David Letterman says, "Nice to meet you. Goodbye."

Jim Day had absolutely nothing to say to him and Letterman was wholly uninterested. Great TV.

durl
08-06-2017, 04:13 PM
Reds pitchers today have a combined ERA of 27.25.

Sent from my SM-T713 using Tapatalk

Tom Servo
08-06-2017, 04:13 PM
Reds pitchers today have a combined ERA of 27.25.

is that good

durl
08-06-2017, 04:14 PM
is that goodBetter than 30.14.

Sent from my SM-T713 using Tapatalk

Big Klu
08-06-2017, 04:16 PM
Jim Day had absolutely nothing to say to him and Letterman was wholly uninterested. Great TV.

Can't say I blame him. Dave just wanted to take in a ball game and enjoy himself. He didn't want a lengthy interview.

I noticed that THom didn't try to bully him. Dave would take his head off.

Big Klu
08-06-2017, 04:22 PM
Today's Joe Nuxhall Star of the Game is Kevin Shackelford, who pitched 2 innings of one-hit shutout relief with 1 K.

Big Klu
08-06-2017, 04:25 PM
On pace for 66-96.

mth123
08-06-2017, 05:19 PM
Congratulations to Joey Votto, who becomes the sixth player in Reds history to hit 250 home runs!


Updated Reds HR list (players in italics are active):

Reds 100-Home Run Club
1. Johnny Bench - 389
2. Frank Robinson - 324
3. Tony Perez - 287
4. Adam Dunn - 270
5. Ted Kluszewski - 251
6. Joey Votto - 250
7. George Foster - 244
8. Jay Bruce - 233
9. Ken Griffey, Jr. - 210
10. Eric Davis - 203
11. Barry Larkin - 198
12. Brandon Phillips - 191
13. Vada Pinson - 186
14. Wally Post - 172
15. Gus Bell - 160
16. Joe Morgan - 152
16. Pete Rose - 152
18. Lee May - 147
19. Dan Driessen - 133
20. Reggie Sanders - 125
21. Ernie Lombardi - 120
22. Sean Casey - 118
23. Frank McCormick - 110
24. Todd Frazier - 108
25. Dave Parker - 107
26. Chris Sabo - 104
27. Dave Concepcion - 101

Lacking anything interesting to talk about in regards to today's game, I'll chime in with this: Votto's 250th Home Run puts him 225th in Baseball history. To get into the top 200 by the end of the year he'd need to hit 10 to 15 more HR. Several active players ahead of him may raise the number needed to around 265 or so. Just 4 more HR will move him up 10 spots, so there is that.

JaxRed
08-06-2017, 05:38 PM
Carpenter K's


Homer's stuff looks a little crisper now. Almost wonder if the long inning was detrimental to him.

Nope.... that wasn't it.

JaxRed
08-06-2017, 05:41 PM
I'm not going to start a big tangent debate during a game thread, so I will post this and leave it.



Did anyone actually think this would happen.

JaxRed
08-06-2017, 05:46 PM
Joey Gallo just hit one off the parking garage in Minnesota lol.

Jerry Gallo?

Jerry Gallo's dead !

Joey Blotto
08-06-2017, 05:53 PM
Jerry Gallo?

Jerry Gallo's dead !

I'm aware of that!

jojo
08-06-2017, 06:30 PM
I'm not going to start a big tangent debate during a game thread, so I will post this and leave it.

How good or bad Garrett was pitching had little or nothing to do with how Garrett performed after he was sent down. So I disagree with Brantley here.

But Garrett didn't continue his regression after being sent down. He imploded and has continued to implode in AAA. It's hard to argue that being sent down didn't have a strong negative affect on his development.

Actually its super easy to argue with such a conclusion. Maybe he was sent down because he was struggling and he continued to struggle after being sent down because the underlying reasons for his struggling remained.

CrackerJack
08-06-2017, 08:17 PM
Jeff Brantley still really likes food, and likes to talk about it...a lot.

George Grande still broadcasts games (get your smiles on folks!)

Jim Day's riveting "Day Off" promotional docu-series.

They've probably combined Skyline chili with some other type of mega-fattening junk food at the park anyone can try.

There are still reasons to tune-in and be a part of the excitement is what I'm trying to say.

Ironman92
08-06-2017, 08:56 PM
Lol

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170807/828edfad1201851ff37fb50f80c935de.png

Rantly
08-06-2017, 09:23 PM
Today's Joe Nuxhall Star of the Game is Kevin Shackelford, who pitched 2 innings of one-hit shutout relief with 1 K.

Thinking maybe this would one of those games when nobody that was asked shows up and Joe has to try to fill airtime

dougdirt
08-06-2017, 11:27 PM
But would you Doug, if someone says say "Votto has hit 29 home runs this year" jump in and chirp that the one hit on August 6th wouldn't be out of most parks? Cause you did that a lot with Bailey and his Yankee Stadium home runs. I just want things played down the middle.

You brought up two posts that I made five years apart.

But just like if someone were to say that some guy playing in Petco had no power, or someone were saying that someone playing in GABP had tons of it, yes, I'd point out that we should probably try to take a closer look at things because of the parks.

Heck, just this season I've brought up the ballparks when discussing guys like Straily, Gregorius and Alonso off of the top of my head.

kaldaniels
08-07-2017, 12:09 AM
You brought up two posts that I made five years apart.

But just like if someone were to say that some guy playing in Petco had no power, or someone were saying that someone playing in GABP had tons of it, yes, I'd point out that we should probably try to take a closer look at things because of the parks.

Heck, just this season I've brought up the ballparks when discussing guys like Straily, Gregorius and Alonso off of the top of my head.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?94492-Homer-Bailey-what-to-do-with-him&p=2613142&viewfull=1#post2613142

In the post in this thread you denied taking about it more than once. In this link you admit you had brought it up before. I'm just saying I always thought it was unfair how you mentioned those homers when you (or others) defend Bailey (or someone else) but don't do the same (dredging up exact plays) to take away from guys you support. I'm done pulling quotes. You denied (or politically claimed no recollection) making multiple remarks about Bailey. Those posts show otherwise. That issue is settled.

You aren't the only person who does that where you try to "take away" a negative fluky play to give your guy credit. But your defense of Bailey with those homers was quite memorable so I cited them as an example. I doubt I'm the only one who remembers them.

But today's Votto home run was the perfect example to point out that maybe sometimes fluky plays go in favor of our guys and are glossed over. If I hadn't made a stink I truly think it would have been forgotten in the dustbin of Redszone History.

I'm all for park factors but just them correctly. If you are going to cite specific plays in favor of a guy shouldn't one be 100% sure they aren't missing any specific plays that go against said player? Down the middle is all I ask. Or qualify it with a disclaimer that you haven't analyzed every play by that guy.

The facts about those Bailey home runs are interesting. But you can't draw conclusions from them alone.

Rantly
08-07-2017, 10:18 AM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?94492-Homer-Bailey-what-to-do-with-him&p=2613142&viewfull=1#post2613142

In the post in this thread you denied taking about it more than once. In this link you admit you had brought it up before. I'm just saying I always thought it was unfair how you mentioned those homers when you (or others) defend Bailey (or someone else) but don't do the same (dredging up exact plays) to take away from guys you support. I'm done pulling quotes. You denied (or politically claimed no recollection) making multiple remarks about Bailey. Those posts show otherwise. That issue is settled.
Lighten up Francis
You aren't the only person who does that where you try to "take away" a negative fluky play to give your guy credit. But your defense of Bailey with those homers was quite memorable so I cited them as an example. I doubt I'm the only one who remembers them.

But today's Votto home run was the perfect example to point out that maybe sometimes fluky plays go in favor of our guys and are glossed over. If I hadn't made a stink I truly think it would have been forgotten in the dustbin of Redszone History.

I'm all for park factors but just them correctly. If you are going to cite specific plays in favor of a guy shouldn't one be 100% sure they aren't missing any specific plays that go against said player? Down the middle is all I ask. Or qualify it with a disclaimer that you haven't analyzed every play by that guy.

The facts about those Bailey home runs are interesting. But you can't draw conclusions from them alone.
Lighten up Francis

dougdirt
08-07-2017, 10:24 AM
So if I say park factors matter, I should check every single thread and be sure to point out that they matter on every comment and if I don't, then I should never bring them up? Is that really what you're asking?

Or are you asking that park factor should only be talked about if I go back and watch all 600 plate appearances of a player and chart out all of their hits?

Either way, that's crazy talk and I can't believe that you're having such a weird reaction over this.

kaldaniels
08-07-2017, 12:33 PM
So if I say park factors matter, I should check every single thread and be sure to point out that they matter on every comment and if I don't, then I should never bring them up? Is that really what you're asking?

Or are you asking that park factor should only be talked about if I go back and watch all 600 plate appearances of a player and chart out all of their hits?

Either way, that's crazy talk and I can't believe that you're having such a weird reaction over this.

You are bobbing and weaving here Doug. I know you don't like what I'm saying but let's discuss it fairly rather than calling it "crazy talk."

I love park factors. They are helpful. But I love real park factors that the experts come up with (I trust their methods). They come up with them by analyzing every ball hit and then come up with park factors for each park. Then they are applied evenly and fairly to each player. wRC+ uses them of course for one. Super awesome!

What I don't like is anecdotal Dougdirt (or whomever) park factors. When you see a single play you don't like and attempt to strip it out from the data, it is a dangerous game because then you should be looking at every single play even-handedly.

Let's look at the Winker "homer" that he was robbed of the other day. At the end of the year should we say "Winker had 5 HR but really let's give him 6 since Marte robbed him of one." No we shouldn't. Same idea. A home run is a home run when it goes over the fence...to a player's advantage or detriment.

So yes, if you are using the Dougdirt park factor, you should chart all the hits...thats how park factors are made. That's not crazy talk.

I know it doesn't make me popular by pointing things like this out so sorry.

dougdirt
08-07-2017, 12:53 PM
Bobbing and weaving?

You threw out some weird comments I made five years ago in the freakin' game thread.

And let's be real: The posts you linked to were using actual data that looked at the plays in 2012 to show that they wouldn't have been home runs in a lot of other places.

I'm not going to continue this ridiculousness. Everyone knows that a home run total in GABP isn't the same as it is in Petco. That you don't like that someone isn't literally looking at all 1200 balls in play between two guys that hit in the respective parks isn't changing the fact that we all know it to be true. It's crazy talk to expect anyone to have to do that legwork to say it's true, too.

kaldaniels
08-07-2017, 12:56 PM
Bobbing and weaving?

You threw out some weird comments I made five years ago in the freakin' game thread.

And let's be real: The posts you linked to were using actual data that looked at the plays in 2012 to show that they wouldn't have been home runs in a lot of other places.

I'm not going to continue this ridiculousness. Everyone knows that a home run total in GABP isn't the same as it is in Petco. That you don't like that someone isn't literally looking at all 1200 balls in play between two guys that hit in the respective parks isn't changing the fact that we all know it to be true. It's crazy talk to expect anyone to have to do that legwork to say it's true, too.

No, I'm just expecting you to use the fair park factors that are available to all of us, rather than creating your own.

I only threw out "weird" comments because those were the first ones that came up on a search (I struggle with searching this site). 100% I truly did not think you would deny making such claims, but since you did I just put out the first 2 that I found.

You are dodging the point (or question) - should armchair guys like us, who aren't watching and analyzing each play, be stripping single plays from the data. Strong no for me.

dougdirt
08-07-2017, 12:57 PM
I didn't deny them, I said I don't remember them (which isn't surprising since they were five years ago).

And the ones I used were fair and freely available to anyone. Just like today, if you can actually find the data, you can use it.

As to your question: I don't care what you armchair GM. But more data is better than less data. And if you're armcharing a guy who is playing in a park that has huge, deep gaps, and he pounds them all the time, but they go for outs because it's 385 instead of 370 - maybe you should start looking closer at the individual plays because you put THAT GUY in GABP or Yankee Stadium, and those outs are going to turn into home runs.

Likewise, you take a RHH and put them in Houston or Fenway as a pull guy? Yeah, they're probably going to find some more power. I've noted the insane differences that Wade Boggs had in his career at Fenway and outside of Fenway. Ballparks matter.

Really. Now I'm done.

kaldaniels
08-07-2017, 01:12 PM
I didn't deny them, I said I don't remember them (which isn't surprising since they were five years ago).

And the ones I used were fair and freely available to anyone. Just like today, if you can actually find the data, you can use it.

As to your question: I don't care what you armchair GM. But more data is better than less data. And if you're armcharing a guy who is playing in a park that has huge, deep gaps, and he pounds them all the time, but they go for outs because it's 385 instead of 370 - maybe you should start looking closer at the individual plays because you put THAT GUY in GABP or Yankee Stadium, and those outs are going to turn into home runs.

Likewise, you take a RHH and put them in Houston or Fenway as a pull guy? Yeah, they're probably going to find some more power. I've noted the insane differences that Wade Boggs had in his career at Fenway and outside of Fenway. Ballparks matter.

Really. Now I'm done.

You keep preaching that ballparks matter. I know that.

And yeah, look at individual plays. But to be complete and draw conclusions you have to look at them all. Stopping after you've saved Bailey a few home runs is biased.

I'm guessing Homer Bailey pitched in 10-15 parks in 2012. If we are negating home runs from his Yankee Stadium start shouldn't we look at all parks and see if we need to "negate" or "add" any more home runs? That's the issue. You stopped after the Yankee Stadium homers.

You can say you are done and that's fine but you've totally avoided my point.

dougdirt
08-07-2017, 01:13 PM
:bang:

kaldaniels
08-07-2017, 01:25 PM
:bang:

Look at it this way. Let's say we have the data (and maybe we do) to tell which home runs have been wind-aided to a home run and which balls have been wind blocked from being a home run.

Tonight Joey Votto hits 2 balls that would have been home runs but the wind kept them in the park. Now, if we are projecting forward it would be understandable to try to account for that somehow. And frankly we kind of should. But...what is needed is to look at all balls he hits in that regard. Not just quit looking after today after we "give" him +2 home runs.

I'm sorry to keep trying to explain but either you are not understanding what I'm saying (I could be doing a poor job) or you are deflecting with strawmen ("park factors matter") and emojis.

jojo
08-07-2017, 01:34 PM
Park factors used to matter when there was an ORG and a Sundeck. Now they're meaningless on redszone.

klw
08-07-2017, 03:08 PM
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/ubb5hpgnfl6kinqnxy9c.gif