2019 Cleveland Browns...We're back !!

[GAC]

Dude from OSU on the 49ers defense is really rubbing it in.

That would be Nick Bosa.... https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27795562/49ers-nick-bosa-gets-payback-fake-flag-plant-baker-mayfield-hit


Not too much can be said about this game other then it was a total disaster from the get-go, you try to take whatever you can from it, and move on. When you totally dominate the LOS on both sides of the ball like the 49ers did, it's room for disaster. They had us reeling, back on our heels, since the initial kick-off. The entire Brown's team was rattled, disjointed.

IMO, and this game was a good example early, Kitchens is getting too "cute" with his offensive play-calling. He needs to simplify things on this offense. I was surprised that Chubbs was able to rush for 87 yards (5.4 yds/carry) the way our O-line was playing. I hope Kitchen realizes (and I think he does) the weapon he has in Chubbs. It cannot be all about Mayfield. A solid running attack opens up a lot offensively.

Take some of the pressure off this young QB. Anyone can see that Baker is pressing and pressing bad.

But one of the biggest things that really infuriated me watching last night's blow-out was the terrible tackling by the Browns. I lost count on the number of times we hit the runner behind the LOS, should have been a sure tackle - and the guy shreds him off and runs for 15 yards. How many third and longs did SF convert like that? I'm tired of watching NFL games where trying to strip the ball is emphasized over tackling.

Definitely a lot to work on this week. We need to get our CB's back. That another disaster.

[Todd Gack]

I think the browns would be a better team right now with Andy Dalton at QB.

Just sayin.

You've been Bengalized.

[phatknuckle]

That would be Nick Bosa.... https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27795562/49ers-nick-bosa-gets-payback-fake-flag-plant-baker-mayfield-hit


Not too much can be said about this game other then it was a total disaster from the get-go, you try to take whatever you can from it, and move on. When you totally dominate the LOS on both sides of the ball like the 49ers did, it's room for disaster. They had us reeling, back on our heels, since the initial kick-off. The entire Brown's team was rattled, disjointed.

IMO, and this game was a good example early, Kitchens is getting too "cute" with his offensive play-calling. He needs to simplify things on this offense. I was surprised that Chubbs was able to rush for 87 yards (5.4 yds/carry) the way our O-line was playing. I hope Kitchen realizes (and I think he does) the weapon he has in Chubbs. It cannot be all about Mayfield. A solid running attack opens up a lot offensively.

Take some of the pressure off this young QB. Anyone can see that Baker is pressing and pressing bad.

But one of the biggest things that really infuriated me watching last night's blow-out was the terrible tackling by the Browns. I lost count on the number of times we hit the runner behind the LOS, should have been a sure tackle - and the guy shreds him off and runs for 15 yards. How many third and longs did SF convert like that? I'm tired of watching NFL games where trying to strip the ball is emphasized over tackling.

Definitely a lot to work on this week. We need to get our CB's back. That another disaster.


Surprised the defensive line was dominated that way, not so about the offensive line. Very disappointing performance all around.

[GAC]

https://usercontent1.hubstatic.com/8247534.jpg

[RedTeamGo!]

You've been Bengalized.

I am not remotely a bengals fan.

[Bob Sheed]

I think the browns would be a better team right now with Andy Dalton at QB.

Just sayin.

Maybe the Dalton who was fresh out of TCU, but not the Bunglized Dalton. He's hearing footsteps now like countless Bunglized QBs before him.

Mayfield is a winner, always has been. The 49ers have made quite a few teams look foolish this season already. They're just so fast!

Let's see how the Browns bounce back from this one. They are a young team still getting used to one another.

[Sea Ray]

Here's one of my "things" with the Browns this year. Anyone who is an avid follower (fan) of this team can sight multiple areas where this organization has failed miserably for years. But over these last few years - even the 0-16 year - there were many, many games this team was not only in (competitive), but even had a lead going into the 4th Q.

But they always found a way to lose (choke) it. They could never finish it.

I actually count that Ram's game as one. 13-10 Browns heading into the 4th. Some bad decisions made by Kitchens - and Kitchens publicly acknowledged it was on him. You move on. And they rebounded nicely vs the Ravens in Baltimore.

Their next three opponents are - 49ers (A)(MNF), Seahawks (H), Pats (A). Who have the 49ers and Seahawks played? The combined record for the 49ers opponents is 3-9 ... the Seahawks 4-11-1. Seattle beat the Saints, but barely squeaked by the Bengals, Steelers, and Cardinals (who have one lone W between them, and that is Pitt over Cincy). The 49ers have played TB, Bengals, and Steelers.

I'm simply saying they're going to face a better level of talent, IMO, in the Browns.

So did the 49ers face a better level of talent last night or have they still not played anyone?

[RedTeamGo!]

Maybe the Dalton who was fresh out of TCU, but not the Bunglized Dalton. He's hearing footsteps now like countless Bunglized QBs before him.

Mayfield is a winner, always has been. The 49ers have made quite a few teams look foolish this season already. They're just so fast!

Let's see how the Browns bounce back from this one. They are a young team still getting used to one another.

Mayfield has won nothing yet at NFL level and has looked bad all year so far. I think defenses figured out he can’t throw to his left. Being a “winner” means nothing at this level. It’s about skill and intelligence.

Browns are a Nick Chubb away from being 0-5.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Mayfield has won nothing yet at NFL level and has looked bad all year so far. I think defenses figured out he can’t throw to his left. Being a “winner” means nothing at this level. It’s about skill and intelligence.

Browns are a Nick Chubb away from being 0-5.

Eh I think they had that Jets game with me at running back.

[phatknuckle]

Mayfield has won nothing yet at NFL level and has looked bad all year so far. I think defenses figured out he can’t throw to his left. Being a “winner” means nothing at this level. It’s about skill and intelligence.

Browns are a Nick Chubb away from being 0-5.

I'll continue to reserve judgement on Mayfield. The bad offensive line play and obvious passing situations have put his faults on display and not worked towards his strengths. He has always been at his best with the quick routes, and those simply are not happening very often. Whether that is because of the play calling, the route running or Mayfield not seeing an early open receiver, I'm not sure. I know the offensive line is not good enough for deep routes.

[GAC]

The 49ers have made quite a few teams look foolish this season already. They're just so fast!

That's what stood out to me watching the game. Their quickness was phenomenal. They attack.


Let's see how the Browns bounce back from this one. They are a young team still getting used to one another.

That's exactly how I am approaching it. I like what Dorsey has done, definite improvement, but not buying into all the hype. I love bipolar fans. I have a few buddies who, since last year, bought into it screaming "Baker Mayfield!" and "We're going to the Super Bowl!". Then, when they got their clocks cleaned by the Titans their bubble was somewhat deflated. But they got back on their high after the Raven's game. I've been trying to talk them off the bridge since Monday night's game (LOL).

From a fan's perspective I understand how emotions play into it. But you can't allow your emotions to elevate expectations to a level that are probably not reasonable. One still has to try and maintain some sort of perspective here. It's not rocket science. We're talking about a franchise that has been the laughingstock of the NFL for pert near 20 years. We are talking about an ingrained culture of losing, inside and out, top to bottom. They're only two years removed from an 0-16 season record.

Drafting and acquiring talent, assembling a unit, is one thing. You have a blueprint. But once you've assembled it, now you have to see if it's going to run (LOL). You have a young team, a young rookie head coach trying to gel, come together as a unit. Work things out. They're going to make their share of mistakes, and have if anyone has watched the games...

1) They're the second most penalized team in the NFL. And it's stupid **** too.
2) Practically every week I hear Kitchens talk about players have to know what their assignments are. A lot of missed assignments so far.
3) A young, brash, competitive QB who, IMO, has kinda bought into the hype, trying to take it all on his shoulders, it's up to him (as he was use to at Oklahoma). Well, he's not in college. He's in the pros now. It's a maturing and learning issue IMO.
4) Likewise, Kitchens is in the same situation as Mayfield in that he is new to the job, inexperienced, but understands the pressure that's on him. IMO, he's tried to get to fancy (inventive) with the offense, and many of these young players are trying to adjust. Kitchens needs to simplify and clean it up.

It would not surprise me if this team finished 8-8 or maybe 9-7. That may disappoint a lot of Brown fans, but not me. It's all about the corrections you make from this season and moving forward.

- - - Updated - - -


So did the 49ers face a better level of talent last night or have they still not played anyone?

You tell me. You know it all (LOL). You're a master of coming into a discussion "after the fact" and making comments like this. Pretty meaningless IMO. I'm assuming you knew what the outcome of the game would be?

I made no predictions going into that game. All I said was ...


The 49ers could end up being a good team. Just too early to tell with a team that went 4-12 last season, and has had it's issues. They're 3-0, played two terrible teams (Bengals, Steelers), and TB (2-2). Just hard to say at this stage.

Explain to me again what was wrong with that statement (opinion) at the time?

The fact they went on to dismantle the Browns in that game doesn't make my beforehand statement irrelevant concerning who the 49ers had played up to that stage. Hats off to the 49ers. They could be a team to watch moving forward. Certainly an exciting team to watch.

But if the Browns end up being a nobody, then yes, the 49ers still haven't played anyone (LOL). But don't interpret that to mean they won't prove to be one of the better teams in the NFL this year. Because you're expected to beat those teams. We'll see.

[Sea Ray]

You tell me. You know it all (LOL). You're a master of coming into a discussion "after the fact" and making comments like this. Pretty meaningless IMO. I'm assuming you knew what the outcome of the game would be?

I made no predictions going into that game. All I said was ...



Explain to me again what was wrong with that statement (opinion) at the time?

The fact they went on to dismantle the Browns in that game doesn't make my beforehand statement irrelevant concerning who the 49ers had played up to that stage. Hats off to the 49ers. They could be a team to watch moving forward. Certainly an exciting team to watch.

But if the Browns end up being a nobody, then yes, the 49ers still haven't played anyone (LOL). But don't interpret that to mean they won't prove to be one of the better teams in the NFL this year. Because you're expected to beat those teams. We'll see.

Well I wouldn't have worded it that way so I think it's incumbent upon the author to answer his own words. You're on record as asking me not to predict things like coach's success so I'm purposely not doing a lot of predicting re: the Browns as to respect your request.

[Assembly Hall]

I was so much hoping the Brownies would prove me wrong, but they haven't.

[GAC]

I was so much hoping the Brownies would prove me wrong, but they haven't.

But what were your expectations going in to this season? And what are they suppose to be proving? They're a young team, young QB who has barely played a full season of games (going back to last year), guided by a first year head coach. Yes, they have a lot of talent. But it still comes down to your scheme and getting them to mesh. And in that effort to do so there are going to be struggles and especially (IMO) erratic/uneven performance. Even some sloppy play.

They looked solid vs the Raven's who have a pretty good defensive front. All the fans are on a high now after that game. Then the following week they go out and lay one big egg vs the 49ers.

They've played five games and stand 2-3. Again, I think many fans expectations, due to the hype and the media, they placed on this team going into this season (and the Beckham acquisition especially) are somewhat unrealistic IMO. They're trying to build something here, and this is only Dorsey's second season as GM. And look at the situation of this team, what he came into.

I'm going to give him a little more time then the '19 season to prove something. One step at a time.

[GAC]

Read this article this morning, and one certainly can't argue with the numbers so far on Baker Mayfield.... https://www.espn.com/blog/cleveland-browns/post/_/id/27217/browns-have-a-lot-of-concerns-starting-with-baker-mayfield

One can make all the "excuses" they want .... bad offensive line play (pressure), receivers dropping balls, etc, etc ... but there's no excuse for bad QB decisions, forcing the issue, trying to make something happen (when it ain't there), and primarily (IMO) because you're the young "star" QB and this is what is expected of you.

He throws into double coverage at twice the rate of any other QB in the NFL (even when the line protection is there). He's holding onto the ball too long, taking sacks, getting the crap beat out of him, and all (IMO) because he's forcing the issue, trying to make it happen. He can't continue to do this.

These are all signs, IMO, of a young, inexperienced, immature, QB. He's not the first. Long list. So I'm certainly not pressing the panic button on Mayfield. But.... he has to learn, take from this, and start to clean it up. Make better decisions. He cannot continue to do this.

I said it earlier, but IMO, the Browns could take a lot of heat off their QB - especially this week vs Seattle - by pounding the ball with Chubbs. This team has a running game. Seattle's defense (away) allows almost 100 yds rushing/game. You're at home. Chubbs is #4 in rushing in the NFL ... 485 yards (5.2 yds/carry), averaging 18 ATTs/game. That needs to increase.

I've read a couple articles where pundits are saying the Browns need to find a way to work Beckham into this offense. Yet it's been hard to do. Not too hard for defenses too prepare, where to put the emphasis defensively, when it's all about Mayfield connecting with Beckham, and the Browns are going to try and force the issue.

A running game forces defensive shifts, drawing guys in. That's when players like Beckham, Landry, etc shine IMO.

It's also a tail of two similar QBs - Wilson being the more experienced obviously - in that they are the most effective outside the pocket. Teams playing Seattle have learned this is a weakness of Wilson- keep him in the pocket, don't let him get outside and improvise.

Just going to be intersting, moving forward, to see how Mayfield adjusts.

[Boston Red]

https://www.espn.com/blog/cleveland-browns/post/_/id/27217/browns-have-a-lot-of-concerns-starting-with-baker-mayfield

OK, not shocked about anything in that article....other than the fact that Cam Newton is the worst QB in the NFL. I mean, I knew he was showing his age, but that's crazy.

[Kingspoint]

I wouldn't be placing any judgements on the Browns right now. They are right where they should be. They have to learn a lot of things.

They were 2-2 in their first four games. That's fine. They have only played one of their next four. Their upside for this season hasn't changed, nor has their downside. They could easily go 2-2 in their 2nd set of four games. That's fine, too. It gets harder after that and harder after that.

They had a great response after their last loss. See what happens this time.

[Bob Sheed]

Browns will win the AFC North, mark it down.

[Boston Red]

Browns will win the AFC North, mark it down.

Despite their home loss to the Browns, I'm still feeling the Fighting Lamars in the North.

[Redsfaithful]

This is the worst year I can remember in a long time for the AFC North, so it's a good time for a young team to be figuring some things out. Division should be winnable with 9 wins.

[WVRed]

This is the worst year I can remember in a long time for the AFC North, so it's a good time for a young team to be figuring some things out. Division should be winnable with 9 wins.

It would be fitting if the division winner finished 7-9 or 8-8.

[Bob Sheed]

It would be fitting if the division winner finished 7-9 or 8-8.

That's what my tea leaves are showing me.

7-9 could win it, especially if Lamar Jackson gets banged up, which, mobile QBs are known to do.

[Revering4Blue]

It would be fitting if the division winner finished 7-9 or 8-8.

Shades of Bernie Kosar's rookie season in 1985 - won the division at 8-8 and came oh, so close to beating Marino's Dolphins in a road playoff game.

[Bob Sheed]

Shades of Bernie Kosar's rookie season in 1985 - won the division at 8-8 and came oh, so close to beating Marino's Dolphins in a road playoff game.

If the Browns snuck in at 7-9, and knocked off the Patriots, that would pretty much be my Super Bowl.

[WVRed]

That's what my tea leaves are showing me.

7-9 could win it, especially if Lamar Jackson gets banged up, which, mobile QBs are known to do.

The Seahawks did it in 2010. And they actually won a playoff game

[BuckeyeRed27]

Browns have 2 wins and really should beat the Bengals twice, Steelers twice, Broncos, Dolphins and Cardinals. That would put them at 9 wins. Assume the Pats game is a loss. I’d put Seahawks, Bills and Ravens as toss ups. So even if they drop the next 2 (Seattle and NE) and are 2-5 the sledding gets a lot easier.

[WVRed]

Browns have 2 wins and really should beat the Bengals twice, Steelers twice, Broncos, Dolphins and Cardinals. That would put them at 9 wins. Assume the Pats game is a loss. I’d put Seahawks, Bills and Ravens as toss ups. So even if they drop the next 2 (Seattle and NE) and are 2-5 the sledding gets a lot easier.

I think Pittsburgh steals one.

It all depends on what Baltimore does.

[RedTeamGo!]

Penciling in browns wins against the Steelers is folly.

[GAC]

OK, not shocked about anything in that article....other than the fact that Cam Newton is the worst QB in the NFL. I mean, I knew he was showing his age, but that's crazy.

IMO, he was one of the most gifted athletes to come out of college. But college is not the pros. And the "game" he thrived on in college brought him some success in the pros, but at a cost - he got the crap beat out of him. The human body can only take so much punishment (LOL).

[GAC]

That's what my tea leaves are showing me.

7-9 could win it, especially if Lamar Jackson gets banged up, which, mobile QBs are known to do.

I'm certainly not going to make any pre-judgments on Lamar because he too is a young, learning QB. It's all going to come down to him developing his technique, improving his passing accuracy down field. Which is still his weakness. But again, he's young.

You look at the Raven's next 8 games ... two vs the Bengals, but the other remaining six are tough opponents (Seahawks, Patriots, Texans, Rams. 49ers, Bills). It's going to be interesting.

- - - Updated - - -


Penciling in browns wins against the Steelers is folly.

They still have a solid defensive front that keeps them in games.

[GAC]

Have any of you been following the so-called handshake flap between Sherman and Mayfield? I think it's funny - gives the media/fans something to talk about during the week lull when there's no football.

IMO, the bottom-line is this, pure and simple ... Sherman deliberately lied. And he got caught. Pretty stupid to stake that position out on a MNF televised game where there's always footage ... dumb-t-dumb-dumb-dumb.

And Sharpe, as far as I'm concerned, also has no excuse. You don't have access, or even staff, to go back and look at the game film to see what happened before you go off? How long would that take?

OK. They both have said they owe Mayfield an apology. Fine. But they couldn't stop there. They go off on rambling explanations, filled with gobbledygook IMO, that still doesn't justify a player purposely lying. After caught, Sherman chastises the media for making it a big deal. No, you made it a big deal in the post-game, in front of media, running your pie-hole (once again). What do you think they are going to do with it? One of his "excuses" was that he said he "felt disrespected" by Mayfield before the game, yet wasn't pressed on that.

Here's Sharpe's interview (explanation). I personally have a hard time understanding him anytime talks (LOL)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XmxgrhsK3k&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR2epiAVF7P9fImHzCUPDnmkAuWzzRweEFFGiPUdA NYfUHJiD8xLxjngByc

[BuckeyeRed27]

Penciling in browns wins against the Steelers is folly.

Right... I just really think the Steelers are bad. I think they are the worst team after the basement of Miami, Washington, Cincinnati and Arizona.

[GAC]

Right... I just really think the Steelers are bad. I think they are the worst team after the basement of Miami, Washington, Cincinnati and Arizona.

They can't lose the level of offensive talent (weapons) they had (Bell, Brown, Ben) and not see that fall. But they're still solid on the defensive side. But defenses tire (LOL).

[North]

Ouch... couldn't punch it in from the one.

...but did it on the 2nd chance after SEA's bum punt.

[Assembly Hall]

I am having brownies tonight...geez.

[GAC]

Talk about giving a game away (lol). Like Straham said at halftime ... you let Russell Wilson hang around and he wins close games. IMO, plenty of blame to go around in this one; but this game is primarily on Kitchen's shoulders.

You had a really crucial point in this game where, IMO, Kitchens made bad decisions. And yes, IMO, it could have been a difference maker in this game ...

You're up 20-12, and you've moved the ball down to the Seattle 10 yard line ready for a potential score. You're under two minutes till the half (1:36), first and goal. Why are you passing the football? A few objectives are to be achieved here other then, yes, scoring. Manage the game clock and work it down so that Russel has little, or no, time to work his magic. And you do that by running the football! Chubbs had a solid half (one rushing TD already - so did Baker). Keep the ball on the friggin' ground. You're looking at going in at halftime up 27-12 or 23-12 at the worst. Bad decision making here by Kitchens IMO. And he's done this more then once when down inside an opponent's 10 yd line, and in situations where clock management is vital.

Then there came the 4th quarter. A bad punt by Seattle puts the Browns in great field position. And once again it's all Chubbs as the Browns score and go up 28-25. All I can say to Hilliard is - catch the friggin' ball (LOL).

I thought Mayfield, overall, had a far better day yesterday. He was more poised and confident. Yeah, he made a few bad passes (decisions) with the ball, but also was putting the ball there too. Only one of those 3 INTs was clean IMO. That's six now that I count, over the last three weeks, where balls either deflected off of a receivers hands, or the receiver ran a wrong route (Beckham did yesterday), that resulted in INTs.

You have to find a way to stop this hemorrhaging (turnovers). Yeah, it certainly is on Mayfield. But his receivers aren't helping him any in this department.

Hats off to Russell Wilson. He's having one heck of a year. He doesn't have the strongest arm in the league, but he's smart and plays (maximizes) his "limitations".

[I just don't like Pete Carroll] LOL

[redsfandan]

"Hearing Trent Williams should be on Browns roster quite soon."
https://twitter.com/sdoerschukREP/status/1184212898098372610

Williams is a Pro Bowl left tackle holding out from the Redskins. He could be a big boost to the offense IF it's true.

[GAC]

Take away that head-shaking 1Q and the Browns win 13-10 (LOL).

I'm laying there watching that 1Q and laughing. That's all one can do really. 3 consecutive plays, 3 consecutive give aways. When's the last time anyone's seen that? I don't blame Chubb so much for the second fumble (on a great run). He had the ball tucked good IMO. They showed that play in slo-mo, with Jones coming down hard with the arm from behind, and most RBs wouldn't know what hit them since they can't see it coming. Still very much impressed with Chubbs though - 20 caries/131 yards (6.5 yds/carry).

The INT by Boyle was something else. I give him credit. From what I saw he made immediate penetration which caused Landry to pull up on his crossing route. Baker turned and "shoveled" the ball to where Jarvis was to be. Boyle said thank you (LOL). I loved the look on Kitchen's face when that happened (LOL).

Once again self-inflicted wounds hurt us bad. But other then some really stupid penalties, at crucial times too, I think they regrouped, didn't fold, and played better. But I'm tired of the stupid illegal hands to the face penalties. Three times the Browns had the Pats stopped in the second half, and all three times they drew a penalty to give the Pats an automatic 1st down. They also had three 1st downs nullified by penalties. You got to clean this up. And yes, there were a few of those penalties I questioned. But you're in Foxboro.

But you go look at team stats for this game, and and there's no huge disparity there overall, other then in that all-important column called Turnovers. Where the Browns had three in the span of approximately three minutes of the 1Q that led to a 17-0 score.

[Redsfaithful]

Is Baker Mayfield bad? It seems like he might actually be bad.

6 TD / 12 INT is bust level bad

[RichRed]

Is Baker Mayfield bad? It seems like he might actually be bad.

6 TD / 12 INT is bust level bad

The jury might still be out on Baker but I feel pretty safe in saying Freddie Kitchens is bad.

[Sea Ray]

The jury might still be out on Baker but I feel pretty safe in saying Freddie Kitchens is bad.

Careful. I said that a long time ago and caught hell for it

[Assembly Hall]

Maybe the Browns and Bears can work out a trade? Mitch for Baker straight up?

[RedTeamGo!]

Maybe the Browns and Bears can work out a trade? Mitch for Baker straight up?

Why would the Browns do that?

[RedTeamGo!]

Is Baker Mayfield bad? It seems like he might actually be bad.

6 TD / 12 INT is bust level bad

Too early to tell. Sophomore slumps for QBs in the NFL is a very real thing. If this happens again next year, yeah he’s bad. He has time to recover, though.

Kitchens pretty clearly sucks, though.

[Sea Ray]

Too early to tell. Sophomore slumps for QBs in the NFL is a very real thing. If this happens again next year, yeah he’s bad. He has time to recover, though.

Kitchens pretty clearly sucks, though.

Kitchens' performance is not a surprise...
The Browns obsession with Kitchens is strange. Why choose him over McCarthy?

It's also interesting that this NFL head coaching search has more turned into men interviewing employers rather than the other way around. That's the opposite of how it usually goes

As a Bengal fan, I'm pleased with this hire...although I have little confidence my front office will do any better

The talent he has to work with is definitely better but that says nothing about the head coach. Hue had a lot more experience up and down the NFL ladder than Kitchens. This guy is a wild card. If the GM wants to mentor him, so be it, but that's rarely a thing in the NFL.

Some were ecstatic at his hire




I'm not going to apologize for being ecstatic.

I've gotten hammered everytime I've brought this up. but not to worry...I've got a thick skin.

Apparently it wasn't right to bring this up in January and it wasn't right to bring it up after game 4 this yr but now it's OK

[RedTeamGo!]

Kitchens' performance is not a surprise...


Some were ecstatic at his hire



I've gotten hammered everytime I've brought this up. but not to worry...I've got a thick skin.

Apparently it wasn't right to bring this up in January and it wasn't right to bring it up after game 4 this yr but now it's OK

Constantly bringing up something you feel you were hammered on and pointing out you were right is the sign of having a thick skin? Lol

[BuckeyeRed27]

The Browns are a good team, but not nearly good enough to overcome the mistakes they’ve made and to seemingly be on the wrong side of every iffy flag.

Kitchens is pretty bad, particularly at game management, but at least play calling and scheme have showed some signs of life since the 49ers game.

The AFC in general isn’t very good and the Browns last 9 games are soft. If they can pull it together now and make a 7-2 run they have a shot at the last wild card still.

[Sea Ray]

Constantly bringing up something you feel you were hammered on and pointing out you were right is the sign of having a thick skin? Lol

I want to make one thing clear: I'm not coming here saying "I'm right". Quite frankly this Kitchens thing has unraveled much more quickly than I thought it would. I didn't think fans like you would be throwing in the towel on him saying he sucks less than halfway through his first yr. I figured it'd take a couple yrs like it did for fans to turn on Hue.

I do stand by one thing I said: As a Bengals fan I'm very pleased with the hire

[RedTeamGo!]

I want to make one thing clear: I'm not coming here saying "I'm right". Quite frankly this Kitchens thing has unraveled much more quickly than I thought it would. I didn't think fans like you would be throwing in the towel on him saying he sucks less than halfway through his first yr. I figured it'd take a couple yrs like it did for fans to turn on Hue.

I do stand by one thing I said: As a Bengals fan I'm very pleased with the hire

Not a browns fan

[Redsfaithful]

Too early to tell. Sophomore slumps for QBs in the NFL is a very real thing. If this happens again next year, yeah he’s bad. He has time to recover, though.

Kitchens pretty clearly sucks, though.

It's odd, having been through the Andy Dalton debate over having an average QB for 8 years, it's tough to calibrate sometimes looking at other guys, but Dalton has been so bad this year and he's at 9 TD / 8 INT. His sophomore year he was 27/16. And I think most Bengals fans sort of think of Dalton as having not been worth it at this point, given he's going to leave without having won a playoff game.

And all of that said, I don't think he's ever had a season where he started as poorly as Baker this year. I'm not sure he's ever even had a 7 game stretch this bad.

[Bob Sheed]

It's a possibility that Mayfield spent too much time in front of the camera this off-season and not enough time working on being a better football player.

He does not look like the same QB this season.

[RedTeamGo!]

It's odd, having been through the Andy Dalton debate over having an average QB for 8 years, it's tough to calibrate sometimes looking at other guys, but Dalton has been so bad this year and he's at 9 TD / 8 INT. His sophomore year he was 27/16. And I think most Bengals fans sort of think of Dalton as having not been worth it at this point, given he's going to leave without having won a playoff game.

And all of that said, I don't think he's ever had a season where he started as poorly as Baker this year. I'm not sure he's ever even had a 7 game stretch this bad.

I said a few weeks ago the Browns would be quite a bit better with Dalton than Mayfield so far this year and I stand by that assessment. This browns team is loaded on offense, one of the best WR corps in the league and one of the best RBs in the league. If they had a more solid QB like Dalton I think they would be 4-3 right now.

[RedTeamGo!]

It's a possibility that Mayfield spent too much time in front of the camera this off-season and not enough time working on being a better football player.

He does not look like the same QB this season.

Eh, I’m not buying that excuse.

He can’t throw to his left. Like, at all. I saw a compilation a few days before week 1 and the gist was “The entire NFL spent the off-season coming to the realization Baker can’t throw to his left. Browns fans: prepare to be disappointed.” Just throw after throw after throw after throw of Baker throwing ducks to the left side of the field. And it’s 100% true. Teams are locking down the right side of the field and just playing man to man on the left. The result? 6 TD/ 12 INT. The crazy part is I am not sure if this is something he can improve. He might just be a bust.

After awhile you have to wonder why this dude went from being a nobody recruit who walked on to Texas Tech to an NFL talent. Maybe the answer is he’s not an NFL talent.

[North]

Eh, I’m not buying that excuse.

He can’t throw to his left. Like, at all. I saw a compilation a few days before week 1 and the gist was “The entire NFL spent the off-season coming to the realization Baker can’t throw to his left. Browns fans: prepare to be disappointed.” Just throw after throw after throw after throw of Baker throwing ducks to the left side of the field. And it’s 100% true. Teams are locking down the right side of the field and just playing man to man on the left. The result? 6 TD/ 12 INT. The crazy part is I am not sure if this is something he can improve. He might just be a bust.

After awhile you have to wonder why this dude went from being a nobody recruit who walked on to Texas Tech to an NFL talent. Maybe the answer is he’s not an NFL talent.
Well, I think it's early to make a final decision on the guy. Next time I see CLE on tv, I'll look for what you say.

I guess Haslan likes cocky college quarterbacks...first Manzeil and now the current incumbent. :p

[GAC]

Is Baker Mayfield bad? It seems like he might actually be bad.

6 TD / 12 INT is bust level bad

I personally think he will be OK. IMO, there's definitely a maturity issue here. It's been shown that 6 of his INTs were due to his receivers not catching the friggin' ball (deflections) or running the wrong route on a timing pattern. But he also has to make better decisions too. He has forced the issue, refuses to throw ball away when it's not there.

Our O-line play (protection) has been erratic due to injury (substitutions) - but - that hasn't stopped our RB Chubbs who is #3 in rushing in the NFL, averaging 5.5 yds/carry. He averaged 6.6 yds/carry vs the Pats (131 yds).

Here's the thing (as I see it) .... this offense moves the ball. The issue every week is stupid penalties, at critical times, that kill drives. I noted it in my previous post - and so did the the guys on NFL Today after the game Sunday - the Browns, in the second half, had three solid drives that took them into Pat's territory, killed by stupid penalties. !0 penalties in that game.

This team, during games, shows a total lack of discipline in this area. And one can't keep chalking up the above to youth and inexperience if improvement is not being seen as the season progresses. It then, IMO, becomes an indictment on the coaching staff top to bottom.

The Browns had a tough schedule the first 7 games. That was a tough road IMO for a young team, behind a first year head coach, trying to put it together, even with all the talent they have. Nine games left vs a "softer" schedule. If they "bungle" (for lack of a better word) their way through these remaining games, show little to no improvement, then Kitchen's job will be in jeopardy .... but not till after the season IMO. Dorsey will give him that rope. Not a big fan of hiring, then firing, first year rookie head coaches.

But it amazes me, especially seeing some of the comments made about Baker in this discussion since Sunday's game, that some seem to think Baker ain't the guy. I make no predictions either way because it's too small of a window for me .... but got back and look at many young QBs, drafted high, who struggled, and struggled badly, in their first year or two before putting it together. Luck, Stafford, Wentz, the list goes on.

[GAC]

Some were ecstatic at his hire

So? What's your point? My position, as far as the hiring, hasn't changed. At the time of his hiring I thought he deserved the opportunity looking at how he ran the offense in '18. Nothing more to see here.



I've gotten hammered everytime I've brought this up. but not to worry...I've got a thick skin.

Apparently it wasn't right to bring this up in January and it wasn't right to bring it up after game 4 this yr but now it's OK

How many times are you going to quote yourself and others, in this discussion? We all know what we said, including yourself, what statements we made and positions we staked out. It's like you're trying to hold me accountable for some sort of erroneous position (LOL). Can you show me that by simply agreeing that Kitchen's deserves the opportunity, that I was saying he was going to succeed? Didn't think so. You didn't know THEN any more then you know now on how Kitchen's would (or will) perform then any of the rest of us. Ya got a 50/50 shot of coming down on the right side. Either he does or he doesn't (LOL).

It's perfectly fine if your opinion from day one on Kitchens is that he's a bad choice and will fail. That's your conclusion. But since then, you're spending the majority of your time in this discussion trying to persuade everyone else to accept your "January Proclamation" as their conclusion too (i.e you all should have listened to me). You come out with these before-the-fact announcements, and then spend the rest of your time hoping/looking for situations where you can come back and say "I told you so".

You seem to have a problem with my position, as earlier shown, as far as acceptance and I don't know why? I guess because it's in disagreement with your's. So what? Not once did I say your position (opinion) was wrong in it's assumptions, or turn out to be wrong. Only that it's rash, premature, and somewhat arrogant, to form such an unshakable subjective opinion before anyone knows, or sees, anything. As I stated before - I'm giving Kitchens the season. Why? New first year head coach. How much time should they be given to assemble a coaching staff and implement their scheme?

[GAC]

I said a few weeks ago the Browns would be quite a bit better with Dalton than Mayfield so far this year and I stand by that assessment. This browns team is loaded on offense, one of the best WR corps in the league and one of the best RBs in the league. If they had a more solid QB like Dalton I think they would be 4-3 right now.

I like Dalton, and even said the same thing a couple years ago when many Bengal fans were "complaining" about Andy (LOL).

They only problem is - Dalton's not available, so it's all pretty subjective. I don't know if Andy would fare any better behind the Brown's current O-line and not being a very mobile QB (LOL).

- - - Updated - - -


I guess Haslan likes cocky college quarterbacks...first Manzeil and now the current incumbent. :p

The decision was all Dorsey's.

[Sea Ray]

It's odd, having been through the Andy Dalton debate over having an average QB for 8 years, it's tough to calibrate sometimes looking at other guys, but Dalton has been so bad this year and he's at 9 TD / 8 INT. His sophomore year he was 27/16. And I think most Bengals fans sort of think of Dalton as having not been worth it at this point, given he's going to leave without having won a playoff game.

And all of that said, I don't think he's ever had a season where he started as poorly as Baker this year. I'm not sure he's ever even had a 7 game stretch this bad.

Long after Dalton leaves the Bengals, he will be remembered very differently. He will be remembered for unprecedented success. I'm thinking about 5 straight playoff seasons. When do you think another QB will accomplish that feat for that franchise? Given the ownership and the culture there, folks will wonder how anyone ever pulled that off

[Sea Ray]

So? What's your point? My position, as far as the hiring, hasn't changed. At the time of his hiring I thought he deserved the opportunity looking at how he ran the offense in '18. Nothing more to see here.




How many times are you going to quote yourself and others, in this discussion? We all know what we said, including yourself, what statements we made and positions we staked out. It's like you're trying to hold me accountable for some sort of erroneous position (LOL). Can you show me that by simply agreeing that Kitchen's deserves the opportunity, that I was saying he was going to succeed? Didn't think so. You didn't know THEN any more then you know now on how Kitchen's would (or will) perform then any of the rest of us. Ya got a 50/50 shot of coming down on the right side. Either he does or he doesn't (LOL).

It's perfectly fine if your opinion from day one on Kitchens is that he's a bad choice and will fail. That's your conclusion. But since then, you're spending the majority of your time in this discussion trying to persuade everyone else to accept your "January Proclamation" as their conclusion too (i.e you all should have listened to me). You come out with these before-the-fact announcements, and then spend the rest of your time hoping/looking for situations where you can come back and say "I told you so".

You seem to have a problem with my position, as earlier shown, as far as acceptance and I don't know why? I guess because it's in disagreement with your's. So what? Not once did I say your position (opinion) was wrong in it's assumptions, or turn out to be wrong. Only that it's rash, premature, and somewhat arrogant, to form such an unshakable subjective opinion before anyone knows, or sees, anything. As I stated before - I'm giving Kitchens the season. Why? New first year head coach. How much time should they be given to assemble a coaching staff and implement their scheme?

Ecstatic and "he deserves a chance" are not one and the same. You said you were ecstatic about the hiring. I was not ecstatic about the Bengals hiring of Zac Taylor but I am/was willing to give him a chance. In fact I think every hire deserves a chance. Your saying that doesn't move the needle at all. Can we all agree every hire deserves a chance?

My point in all of this is that I opined that he was not going to work out and I documented why. It was NOT an unreasonable position to take. I showed where others agreed with me, to which the response was "when was Skip Bayless ever correct?" Well I guess we now know the answer to that. :) I showed where hiring w/i was a red flag as to future success and I was met with exceptions to that rule by mentioning examples from another century. Those responses now look quite foolish.

I agree with you that Kitchens should and likely will survive the year but that's not saying much. Windows to win in the NFL are often short and it appears as though the Browns choice of head coach has killed one of those yrs but we'll see.

Bottom line: My opinion was reasonable from the get go and you and others should not have responded the way you did.

[Sea Ray]

I like Dalton, and even said the same thing a couple years ago when many Bengal fans were "complaining" about Andy (LOL).

They only problem is - Dalton's not available, so it's all pretty subjective. I don't know if Andy would fare any better behind the Brown's current O-line and not being a very mobile QB (LOL).

- - - Updated - - -


The decision was all Dorsey's.

I think you're missing the point with Dalton. The point isn't that the Browns could acquire him. It's that Dalton-like QBs can be found everywhere, such as after the first rd and in free agency (Kirk Cousins). In other words you don't need to spend a first overall draft pick to find an Andy Dalton

[GAC]

I think you're missing the point with Dalton. The point isn't that the Browns could acquire him. It's that Dalton-like QBs can be found everywhere, such as after the first rd and in free agency (Kirk Cousins). In other words you don't need to spend a first overall draft pick to find an Andy Dalton

I thought he was pretty straightforward in what he said.... Dalton, not Dalton-like, would perform better this year over Mayfield. If he had meant that style of QB I trust that RedTeamGo would have said that.

Bengals just benched Dalton. I'll take him on my bench any day.


Ecstatic and "he deserves a chance" are not one and the same. You said you were ecstatic about the hiring.

I started this thread (January). Go back to the beginning and read the first several pages - while the hiring process was on-going - and what myself, and many others, were saying then. Skepticism? Yes. But, IMO, pretty objective and fair at that stage. I didn't even know, at first, that he was even being interviewed (LOL). And I wasn't "falling all over" Kitchens. Even stated that I thought Arians might get it. That position evolved though as I did more research then I knew on Kitchens, as well as Dorsey's mindset on the direction.

Let me simplify it for you.....

When Kitchens/Mayfield basically took over this team last year they turned it around and finished 7-8-1 after a disastrous 0-16 season. Now you explain to me why myself, or any Brown's fan, would not be ecstatic, exuberant over what occurred in '18, compared to the preceding years ... and not want/accept the guy (Kitchens) - give him the opportunity - who was largely responsible? Being even excited about a hire is not a declaration of success you know.


I was not ecstatic about the Bengals hiring of Zac Taylor but I am/was willing to give him a chance.

Well good for you. And this befuddles me somewhat. You're on here harping about Kitchen's coaching inexperience - "he's never been the head of anything" - yet Taylor's resume/coaching experience at this level is much thinner then Kitchen's! You're a Bengals' fan right? Why aren't you over there being the same broken record when your team is 0-8? I'll tell you why. I know them boys over there. They wouldn't put up with it (LOL)


In fact I think every hire deserves a chance.

You obviously have no idea what the definition of "chance" is. I obviously see opportunity differently. You haven't given Kitchens a chance since you made that proclamation last January (LOL). The verdict was already is in. You can't keep saying "I'm giving him a chance" while you continually (currently) keep repeating it was a bad decision from the beginning, he will fail, and I will be proven right.

[GAC]

There's 9 games left, and a "softer" schedule. But they need to clean it up, show better consistency (discipline), or, like I said, it ain't gonna reflect well on this entire coaching staff.

Yeah, Dorsey's watching. But he's a methodical man, not prone to rash, impulsive decisions.

While I am certainly not ecstatic at their start/play through 7 games - I see the main problem (issue) has been all the hype surrounding this team going into this season. And it began with the Dorsey hire. A 7-8-1 '18 shows improvement, direction, hope, but a team with still some major issues. Yet since the last draft, and the acquisition of OBJ, and thanks to ESPN and all the other sports analytical jack-wagons, it's the Super Bowl or bust.

I think these analysts are pee'd off (ego) because they ran their mouths predicting big things for Cleveland in '19, and because it hasn't materialized they couldn't have been wrong, over step themselves in expecting instantaneous, immediate results - it has to be the head coach, QB, or something else. They don't like to look bad.

I'm glad these idiots aren't GMs.

The claim is, in the NFL, you have to WIN NOW. Not when your organization has dug itself such a deep hole, inside and out, for the last 20 years. One doesn't (can't) jump out of a deep hole. You climb out of it.

Through 7 games it ain't gone too good. But it ain't lost. This is Dorsey's second year as GM. Like I said prior .... Lets see what he takes from '19, regardless of where the weaknesses may be, and addresses them to continue the forward path going into '20.

[Sea Ray]

I thought he was pretty straightforward in what he said.... Dalton, not Dalton-like, would perform better this year over Mayfield. If he had meant that style of QB I trust that RedTeamGo would have said that.

Bengals just benched Dalton. I'll take him on my bench any day.



I started this thread (January). Go back to the beginning and read the first several pages - while the hiring process was on-going - and what myself, and many others, were saying then. Skepticism? Yes. But, IMO, pretty objective and fair at that stage. I didn't even know, at first, that he was even being interviewed (LOL). And I wasn't "falling all over" Kitchens. Even stated that I thought Arians might get it. That position evolved though as I did more research then I knew on Kitchens, as well as Dorsey's mindset on the direction.

Let me simplify it for you.....

When Kitchens/Mayfield basically took over this team last year they turned it around and finished 7-8-1 after a disastrous 0-16 season. Now you explain to me why myself, or any Brown's fan, would not be ecstatic, exuberant over what occurred in '18, compared to the preceding years ... and not want/accept the guy (Kitchens) - give him the opportunity - who was largely responsible? Being even excited about a hire is not a declaration of success you know.



Well good for you. And this befuddles me somewhat. You're on here harping about Kitchen's coaching inexperience - "he's never been the head of anything" - yet Taylor's resume/coaching experience at this level is much thinner then Kitchen's! You're a Bengals' fan right? Why aren't you over there being the same broken record when your team is 0-8? I'll tell you why. I know them boys over there. They wouldn't put up with it (LOL)



You obviously have no idea what the definition of "chance" is. I obviously see opportunity differently. You haven't given Kitchens a chance since you made that proclamation last January (LOL). The verdict was already is in. You can't keep saying "I'm giving him a chance" while you continually (currently) keep repeating it was a bad decision from the beginning, he will fail, and I will be proven right.

I don't know why you're befuddled. I'm not thrilled at all with the hiring of Zac Taylor but there aren't any Bengal fans who said that they're ecstatic about it. Bengal fans know that the talent is lacking this year and so the coaching is a small part of why they're 0-8. The Browns have a lot more at stake. They can win this year with the right coaching.

Your characterization that I "continually" say that it was a bad decision is not accurate. I mentioned it this week because others brought it up. Prior to that , I have NOT been in here every week talking about Kitchens. I believe I came in once to say that the hire wasn't looking good and that this didn't surprise me. Why is it that you can handle other folks saying it was a bad hire but not me? Just say that your optimism did not turn out to be warranted and move on. There's no big issue here that warrants these long soliloquies from you

[Sea Ray]

I went back and checked the Bengal thread and I believe this is the first thing I said about the hiring of Zac Taylor:


I agree. The guy is very inexperienced. The Bengals are taking a big chance here...but he is the antithesis of Marvin. He's young, offensive minded, full of energy. I'll be very interested in the asst coaches. I want to see a lot of experience

I was quite skeptical and still am. What worries me more is that they did not surround him with experienced coaches. So I don't know what your gripe is with me here. I'm not at all thrilled with how the Bengals have been run since Marvin's firing.

[Todd Gack]

I said a few weeks ago the Browns would be quite a bit better with Dalton than Mayfield so far this year and I stand by that assessment. This browns team is loaded on offense, one of the best WR corps in the league and one of the best RBs in the league. If they had a more solid QB like Dalton I think they would be 4-3 right now.

Probably this year. But Andy's overall ceiling isn't that high.

In the end, Mayfield is the type to have a typical sophomore slump. He's a pretty emotional guy and plays well when he has a chip on his shoulder. I think he got complacent this offseason and it's showing. I do think he'll still end up pretty solid. After what he did last year, I think it's accurate to assume he's not really this bad.

- - - Updated - - -



After awhile you have to wonder why this dude went from being a nobody recruit who walked on to Texas Tech to an NFL talent. Maybe the answer is he’s not an NFL talent.

I completely disagree. Plenty of other guys have gone the same route. I think you just hate the guy.

[GAC]

I went back and checked the Bengal thread and I believe this is the first thing I said about the hiring of Zac Taylor:

I agree. The guy is very inexperienced. The Bengals are taking a big chance here...but he is the antithesis of Marvin. He's young, offensive minded, full of energy. I'll be very interested in the asst coaches. I want to see a lot of experience

Fine. I never said that you didn't expressed a position on the Taylor hiring. I don't read (follow) every post on the Bengal's thread, so I don't know everything you've said hence. Your statement above is a solid assessment. Safe. You acknowledge his youth/inexperience, but don't form any set position (prediction) from it either way. So why do it with Kitchens? Instead you follow it with a big BUT that appears to carry far more optimism, a positive take, more then anything - anti-thesis of Lewis, young, offensive-minded, and full of energy!

Now compare that position with the hard-line position you staked out on Kitchens when he was hired, before he even set one foot into the job. Don't see anywhere were you said the Taylor hire was a bad choice by management, should have went for experience over inexperience in that position, and is most likely headed for failure. And he has far less experience in coaching at this level then Kitchens does. Which was your primary beef with the Kitchen's hiring.

You can say you're still "skeptical" of Taylor. Pretty safe statement to say when he's 0-8. Showing skepticism simply means you question, have doubts, yet still not certain. That's not the pre-formed position you held on Kitchens.

[Sea Ray]

Fine. I never said that you didn't expressed a position on the Taylor hiring. I don't read (follow) every post on the Bengal's thread, so I don't know everything you've said hence. Your statement above is a solid assessment. Safe. You acknowledge his youth/inexperience, but don't form any set position (prediction) from it either way. So why do it with Kitchens? Instead you follow it with a big BUT that appears to carry far more optimism, a positive take, more then anything - anti-thesis of Lewis, young, offensive-minded, and full of energy!

Now compare that position with the hard-line position you staked out on Kitchens when he was hired, before he even set one foot into the job. Don't see anywhere were you said the Taylor hire was a bad choice by management, should have went for experience over inexperience in that position, and is most likely headed for failure. And he has far less experience in coaching at this level then Kitchens does. Which was your primary beef with the Kitchen's hiring.

You can say you're still "skeptical" of Taylor. Pretty safe statement to say when he's 0-8. Showing skepticism simply means you question, have doubts, yet still not certain. That's not the pre-formed position you held on Kitchens.

What hard line position are you referring to? The one where I said that as a Bengal fan I liked the hire? Well, that was true at the time and it's true now.

If you want to criticize the Bengals choice of Zac Taylor, you'll not see me defending it like a clueless fan practicing homerism in support of his team. I don't know why you do that for your team. Through the yrs you've done exactly that with Hue Jackson, Johnny Manziel and DeShone Kizer. I'd not make comments such as "I have faith in Mike Brown" etc, etc. I know full well my team doesn't have a clue. That's the difference between you and me

[GAC]

Here's the bottom-line as I see... you're a Bengal fan who likes to go on the opposition's threads and be a thorn in their sides, under the guise of discussion, telling them of all the bad decisions their organization is making, how screwed up they are, and how it's not gong to work out. While basically ignoring that your own house is on fire, has far worse issues, yet you've been basically mum. Certainly didn't forge an off-season prediction of failure like you did with the Brown's hire.

According to you, inexperience was the driving factor in your Kitchen's position. But you don't allow it to be so with Taylor (who has less experience then Kitchens). He's "young, offensive-minded, and full of energy".

So as the Browns struggle through the first 7 games at 2-5 - and you're on here reminding us of what you said last-off season - your team (head coach) is win-less at 0-8 and just benched their starting QB for a 4th round pick. And as the losses pile up, poor team play, and many Bengal fans and sports pundits question Taylor, wonder if he's the guy for the job, your position is still "I like the hire".

Welcome to the club homer! LOL

[Sea Ray]

Here's the bottom-line as I see... you're a Bengal fan who likes to go on the opposition's threads and be a thorn in their sides, under the guise of discussion, telling them of all the bad decisions their organization is making, how screwed up they are, and how it's not gong to work out. While basically ignoring that your own house is on fire, has far worse issues, yet you've been basically mum. Certainly didn't forge an off-season prediction of failure like you did with the Brown's hire.

According to you, inexperience was the driving factor in your Kitchen's position. But you don't allow it to be so with Taylor (who has less experience then Kitchens). He's "young, offensive-minded, and full of energy".

So as the Browns struggle through the first 7 games at 2-5 - and you're on here reminding us of what you said last-off season - your team (head coach) is win-less at 0-8 and just benched their starting QB for a 4th round pick. And as the losses pile up, poor team play, and many Bengal fans and sports pundits question Taylor, wonder if he's the guy for the job, your position is still "I like the hire".

Welcome to the club homer! LOL

Well you don't see it accurately at all. I'm not here to be a thorn in your side. I'm here to give an unbiased assessment of your team. You happen to suffer from rose colored glasses when looking at your team. I'm basing this on years of Browns discussions with you. I really gave very little opinion on Kitchens but I did go so far as to say that I didn't think it would turn out to be a good hire. Your memory is either off or you didn't go back to check the thread but experience was a minor part of my issue with Kitchens. A bigger one was that he was a hire from within. A great deal of discussion revolved around that. I made the point that hires from w/i rarely work out. I got a lot of resistance to that but that's OK. We'll see who's tea leaves turn out to be correct soon enough.

As for the Bengals, 100% that house is on fire! 100%. No question about that. Do you want me to say it a third time? 100% A fourth time? It's totally irrelevant to the Browns but yeah, 100%. Come to the Bengals thread and we can discuss it further

[Redsfaithful]

This is a must win for the Browns. Cleveland are 4 point favorites on the road. They should be favored in six of their next seven games - only one I'm not sure about is Buffalo.

[phatknuckle]

This is a must win for the Browns. Cleveland are 4 point favorites on the road. They should be favored in six of their next seven games - only one I'm not sure about is Buffalo.

Yep. I still have hope for this team and still believe they will reach at least .500 by the end of the year and will be in the hunt for the AFC North title. The Denver game is pivotal. They can't afford to lose any games to teams they 'should' beat.

[kaldaniels]

Yep. I still have hope for this team and still believe they will reach at least .500 by the end of the year and will be in the hunt for the AFC North title. The Denver game is pivotal. They can't afford to lose any games to teams they 'should' beat.

It’s weird but a lot of football sharks that I know are saying they are going to make it interesting the rest of the way. It’s gonna take a minimum of winning 8 of 9 to make the playoffs. How often does that happen? (8-8 wont get it done. The Ravens are 5-2).

[GAC]

This is a must win for the Browns. Cleveland are 4 point favorites on the road. They should be favored in six of their next seven games - only one I'm not sure about is Buffalo.

Both of these teams are beat to hell coming into it (LOL). Flacco out, Allen making his first NFL start.... https://www.milehighreport.com/2019/11/1/20944362/broncos-browns-final-injury-report-week-9

If the Browns lose this game then the hype train has officially been derailed (LOL)

They simply have to clean it up. At this stage of the season my "indictment" falls completely on this coaching staff and the lack of discipline. We're the 2nd most penalized team in the NFL. I've watched every game. When this team is clicking on all cylinders they move the ball. Look at the numbers last week vs NE. They keep shooting themselves in the foot. They've been their own worst enemy. They had three drives in the second half into NE territory stopped, forced to punt, because of stupid penalties. It's been also noted that there have been numerous instances where receivers ran wrong routes. IMO, these are all mental things due to lack of discipline. And that falls on the coaching staff IMO.

IMO, they gave away the Rams and Seahawk games.

Going back to last season, Baker has played approximately one season of football. And Mayfield, like all young QBs wanting to carry the mantle, after all he was the #1 overall pick, is pressing too much, taking too much on his shoulders. He's got a chip on his shoulder, but tries too much to force things when it just ain't there, takes sacks instead of throwing the ball away. All I'm going to say is that that is part of the learning curve of a young QB. But at some point that curve has to start "bending" the other way if he's going to succeed in the NFL.

The O-line play has been erratic due to injury. But it has not been terrible. You don't have the 3rd leading rusher in the NFL who leads the league with 105 yds/game average, behind a terrible O-line. Unless he's not human. 20 carries for 131 yds (6.6 yds/carry) vs NE. I was watching Chubbs when he was playing for Georgia. Loved him and his style of play. When it comes to me and the NFL draft I'm more hit then miss. But when the Browns went back on the clock I was hoping they'd take Chubbs, and came out of my chair when they did.

Denver's rush defense is terrible (110 yds/game). You turn Chubbs loose, pound them, and that will do a lot to open up the passing game. The opposition has done a very good job at basically shutting Beckham down. A lot of dbl coverage, different schemes. And that, IMO, is where this coaching staff needs to adapt, because it's not all about Mayfield-Beckham. And if he opposition is stifling that, then quit trying to force the issue (LOL).

But, IMO, here is the primary reason this team is 2-5 at this stage ... a Turnover Differential of -9. They excelled here last year, finished at +7. This is something a young team can correct/clean up. But the clock is ticking ....

[GAC]

RB Kareem Hunt returns next week vs Buffalo. Yes, I'm not afraid to say I envision the day of the return of a two-pronged, punishing, running attack in the likes of Mack-Byner, and to have two RBs rush for over 1,000 yds/season. A guy can dream (LOL).

[phatknuckle]

Both of these teams are beat to hell coming into it (LOL). Flacco out, Allen making his first NFL start.... https://www.milehighreport.com/2019/11/1/20944362/broncos-browns-final-injury-report-week-9

The O-line play has been erratic due to injury. But it has not been terrible. You don't have the 3rd leading rusher in the NFL who leads the league with 105 yds/game average, behind a terrible O-line. Unless he's not human. 20 carries for 131 yds (6.6 yds/carry) vs NE. I was watching Chubbs when he was playing for Georgia. Loved him and his style of play. When it comes to me and the NFL draft I'm more hit then miss. But when the Browns went back on the clock I was hoping they'd take Chubbs, and came out of my chair when they did.


For the most part I 100% agree with the post, however...
While the run blocking has been good for the most part, the pass blocking has not. It's possible that some of this is on Baker, but there has simply been no time for deep routes to develop and when penalties are putting you in poor down and distance situations that is a problem.

[phatknuckle]

It’s weird but a lot of football sharks that I know are saying they are going to make it interesting the rest of the way. It’s gonna take a minimum of winning 8 of 9 to make the playoffs. How often does that happen? (8-8 wont get it done. The Ravens are 5-2).

Ravens face their tough half of their schedule while the Brown's is much easier. Can they pick up 3 games? Probably only if they beat the Ravens in Cleveland, at least split with the Steelers and don't lose to anyone they shouldn't.

We will learn a lot about the Ravens on Sunday night.

[phatknuckle]

RB Kareem Hunt returns next week vs Buffalo. Yes, I'm not afraid to say I envision the day of the return of a two-pronged, punishing, running attack in the likes of Mack-Byner, and to have two RBs rush for over 1,000 yds/season. A guy can dream (LOL).

I could see a lot of 2 back sets when Kareem is ready to play. But remember he was prohibited from even practicing with the team while suspended, so it might take a week or two for him to get acclimated. Both are not only good running the ball but also catching passes. I am definitely looking forward it.

[Rdirtypirates]

Both of these teams are beat to hell coming into it (LOL). Flacco out, Allen making his first NFL start.... https://www.milehighreport.com/2019/11/1/20944362/broncos-browns-final-injury-report-week-9

If the Browns lose this game then the hype train has officially been derailed (LOL)

They simply have to clean it up. At this stage of the season my "indictment" falls completely on this coaching staff and the lack of discipline. We're the 2nd most penalized team in the NFL. I've watched every game. When this team is clicking on all cylinders they move the ball. Look at the numbers last week vs NE. They keep shooting themselves in the foot. They've been their own worst enemy. They had three drives in the second half into NE territory stopped, forced to punt, because of stupid penalties. It's been also noted that there have been numerous instances where receivers ran wrong routes. IMO, these are all mental things due to lack of discipline. And that falls on the coaching staff IMO.

IMO, they gave away the Rams and Seahawk games.

Going back to last season, Baker has played approximately one season of football. And Mayfield, like all young QBs wanting to carry the mantle, after all he was the #1 overall pick, is pressing too much, taking too much on his shoulders. He's got a chip on his shoulder, but tries too much to force things when it just ain't there, takes sacks instead of throwing the ball away. All I'm going to say is that that is part of the learning curve of a young QB. But at some point that curve has to start "bending" the other way if he's going to succeed in the NFL.

The O-line play has been erratic due to injury. But it has not been terrible. You don't have the 3rd leading rusher in the NFL who leads the league with 105 yds/game average, behind a terrible O-line. Unless he's not human. 20 carries for 131 yds (6.6 yds/carry) vs NE. I was watching Chubbs when he was playing for Georgia. Loved him and his style of play. When it comes to me and the NFL draft I'm more hit then miss. But when the Browns went back on the clock I was hoping they'd take Chubbs, and came out of my chair when they did.

Denver's rush defense is terrible (110 yds/game). You turn Chubbs loose, pound them, and that will do a lot to open up the passing game. The opposition has done a very good job at basically shutting Beckham down. A lot of dbl coverage, different schemes. And that, IMO, is where this coaching staff needs to adapt, because it's not all about Mayfield-Beckham. And if he opposition is stifling that, then quit trying to force the issue (LOL).

But, IMO, here is the primary reason this team is 2-5 at this stage ... a Turnover Differential of -9. They excelled here last year, finished at +7. This is something a young team can correct/clean up. But the clock is ticking ....

You got that right, all it was was a hype train. The Browns are as much a mess if not more so than the Bengals. The Browns seem to be actually trying and still look pitiful. You can't condemn an 0-8 team, and talk about it being a trash fire, when your Browns are in the exact same position. The parallels are amazing. They both have rookie coaches in over their head, a terrible offensive line, weak front offices, and so much more. Getting offended of others having a negative opinion of your team and doing the exact same thing is weak. The Browns are no better off than the Bengals, look at the recent history. The only difference is the hype train as you mentioned.

- - - Updated - - -


Both of these teams are beat to hell coming into it (LOL). Flacco out, Allen making his first NFL start.... https://www.milehighreport.com/2019/11/1/20944362/broncos-browns-final-injury-report-week-9

If the Browns lose this game then the hype train has officially been derailed (LOL)

They simply have to clean it up. At this stage of the season my "indictment" falls completely on this coaching staff and the lack of discipline. We're the 2nd most penalized team in the NFL. I've watched every game. When this team is clicking on all cylinders they move the ball. Look at the numbers last week vs NE. They keep shooting themselves in the foot. They've been their own worst enemy. They had three drives in the second half into NE territory stopped, forced to punt, because of stupid penalties. It's been also noted that there have been numerous instances where receivers ran wrong routes. IMO, these are all mental things due to lack of discipline. And that falls on the coaching staff IMO.

IMO, they gave away the Rams and Seahawk games.

Going back to last season, Baker has played approximately one season of football. And Mayfield, like all young QBs wanting to carry the mantle, after all he was the #1 overall pick, is pressing too much, taking too much on his shoulders. He's got a chip on his shoulder, but tries too much to force things when it just ain't there, takes sacks instead of throwing the ball away. All I'm going to say is that that is part of the learning curve of a young QB. But at some point that curve has to start "bending" the other way if he's going to succeed in the NFL.

The O-line play has been erratic due to injury. But it has not been terrible. You don't have the 3rd leading rusher in the NFL who leads the league with 105 yds/game average, behind a terrible O-line. Unless he's not human. 20 carries for 131 yds (6.6 yds/carry) vs NE. I was watching Chubbs when he was playing for Georgia. Loved him and his style of play. When it comes to me and the NFL draft I'm more hit then miss. But when the Browns went back on the clock I was hoping they'd take Chubbs, and came out of my chair when they did.

Denver's rush defense is terrible (110 yds/game). You turn Chubbs loose, pound them, and that will do a lot to open up the passing game. The opposition has done a very good job at basically shutting Beckham down. A lot of dbl coverage, different schemes. And that, IMO, is where this coaching staff needs to adapt, because it's not all about Mayfield-Beckham. And if he opposition is stifling that, then quit trying to force the issue (LOL).

But, IMO, here is the primary reason this team is 2-5 at this stage ... a Turnover Differential of -9. They excelled here last year, finished at +7. This is something a young team can correct/clean up. But the clock is ticking ....

You got that right, all it was was a hype train. The Browns are as much a mess if not more so than the Bengals. The Browns seem to be actually trying and still look pitiful. You can't condemn an 0-8 team, and talk about it being a trash fire, when your Browns are in the exact same position. The parallels are amazing. They both have rookie coaches in over their head, a terrible offensive line, weak front offices, and so much more. Getting offended of others having a negative opinion of your team and doing the exact same thing is weak. The Browns are no better off than the Bengals, look at the recent history. The only difference is the hype train as you mentioned.

[GAC]

For the most part I 100% agree with the post, however...
While the run blocking has been good for the most part, the pass blocking has not. It's possible that some of this is on Baker, but there has simply been no time for deep routes to develop and when penalties are putting you in poor down and distance situations that is a problem.

You're right. And I guess one could say that is a "disadvantage" of having a QB who likes to scramble (improvise), outside the pocket, where they find their greatest success, yet hard to block for (LOL). I think you could say the same for any of those styles of QB though. Like a Wilson. Difference is - Wilson has experience/maturity. I watched him vs the Browns, and watched these two QBs. I could see the maturity with Wilson, he didn't force things, panic. Not so, at times, with Mayfield. Again, immaturity.

That was a heartbreaking loss for me. Should have been won. You look at the stat line of this game and the only glaring difference is (once again) the turnovers (3 INTs). And two of them the Browns were in the redzone. #1, IMO, poor coaching decision (calls) throwing the ball there (especially within the 2 minute warning of the half up 20-12), and when you had a RB who was putting up yardage. Bad decisions on Kitchen's part. But Baker, IMO, only gets credit for one of those INTs (to Landry - forced pass - terrible decision). Even the announcers, on the first one saw that Beckham turned the wrong way on a timing route and hung Baker out to dry. The other one hit receiver Hilliard in both hands, deflected off into the defenders. Catch the ball son (LOL).

Like I said - at some point they have to show they're progressing, starting to clean some of this up. One can't keep doing this week-after-week and keep saying it's simply a young team. Yes, that's true, but when you look at their remaining schedule, and what most label as "inferior", teams the Browns should beat (and most likely based on the hype too), if they keep shooting themselves in the foot, don't start showing their fans progress - then, IMO, there will be some coaching changes in the off-season in Cleveland.

You can't keep playing like the "Clowns" with this kind of talent. At some point it becomes unacceptable.

[GAC]

I could see a lot of 2 back sets when Kareem is ready to play. But remember he was prohibited from even practicing with the team while suspended, so it might take a week or two for him to get acclimated. Both are not only good running the ball but also catching passes. I am definitely looking forward it.

While suspended he was able to use the facilities to maintain his conditioning. And from the reports I have read, he was very committed there. He was allowed on the practice field, with the team a couple weeks ago, and they said he looked good. We'll see.

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/kareem-hunt-looked-good-in-1st-practice-back-with-browns

My biggest issue with Hunt, and I have been trying to follow it as best I can, is how he is progressing from the off-field issue. We all agree that what he did was a terrible thing, and deserves punishment. And we've seen this time and time again in the NFL. OK. He's served his "time", but has he learned anything? And from what I've read he absolutely has, is repentant over it (caught hell from his family from reports I read), and done everything that was required of him (counseling, etc). So again, we'll see.

[GAC]

You got that right, all it was was a hype train. The Browns are as much a mess if not more so than the Bengals. The Browns seem to be actually trying and still look pitiful. You can't condemn an 0-8 team, and talk about it being a trash fire, when your Browns are in the exact same position. The parallels are amazing. They both have rookie coaches in over their head, a terrible offensive line, weak front offices, and so much more. Getting offended of others having a negative opinion of your team and doing the exact same thing is weak. The Browns are no better off than the Bengals, look at the recent history. The only difference is the hype train as you mentioned.

I see where you just joined this forum a couple months ago. And obviously you haven't been following this discussion very long because you are way off base (LOL). I'm not offended because someone else has a negative opinion of my team. The only reason I referenced Taylor and the Bengal's 0-8 start was to remind a Bengal fan who occasionally comes on here to remind us that our hire was a bad choice and we'll regret it - while not staking out such a firm position (opinion) on his own head coach and team. That's it. Wasn't lording the 2-5 Browns over the 0-8 Bengals (LOL).

You're right. They are in a similar situation with two inexperienced, first year (rookie) head coaches. That part you got right. Looking at the situation of both of these teams, coming off of the '18 season and seeing the multiple issues each has - what is a reasonable level of expectation, and how much time should these new coaches be given to turn around and effect change? That's the key question IMO.

I was hearing fans, including the sports pundits, in the first month of the season, questioning these coaches, wondering if they were in over their heads and going to get fired before the end of their first season. IMO, that's ludicrous. Not when you look at the situation both of these teams were in going into this season. I admit the Browns were in a better situation, had a higher level of expectation, because of the talent. But they still finished under .500 last season, and with issues. The Bengals were free falling since the last half of '18. That's why they fired Lewis. A new rookie head coach is suppose to turn it into positive direction working with (primarily) the same "talent" they had last year?

Yep, historically, two bad front offices (owners). The difference is, IMO, one owner, who bungled his way through his first few years (Haslam), actually wised up and went out and hired an experienced GM with a solid resume of winning (Dorsey), and is letting him call the shots. You still have the Brown family in Cincy. This is only Dorsey's second year as GM. Regardless of how the Browns are currently playing, he still has my confidence he will take the necessary steps to move this team forward in '20. And that includes shaking up the coaching staff if need be in the off-season. Whether it works or not I don't know. What have I got to lose as a life-long Browns fan? LOL

The Bengals? You're just going to have to be patient with Taylor and give him a chance to effect change, see if he can do it. Judging him on this season, as bad as it's been, is premature IMO. But he has an uphill battle with his control freak owner vs what the Browns are facing.

[Sea Ray]

I see where you just joined this forum a couple months ago. And obviously you haven't been following this discussion very long because you are way off base (LOL). I'm not offended because someone else has a negative opinion of my team. The only reason I referenced Taylor and the Bengal's 0-8 start was to remind a Bengal fan who occasionally comes on here to remind us that our hire was a bad choice and we'll regret it - while not staking out such a firm position (opinion) on his own head coach and team. That's it. Wasn't lording the 2-5 Browns over the 0-8 Bengals (LOL).

You're right. They are in a similar situation with two inexperienced, first year (rookie) head coaches. That part you got right. Looking at the situation of both of these teams, coming off of the '18 season and seeing the multiple issues each has - what is a reasonable level of expectation, and how much time should these new coaches be given to turn around and effect change? That's the key question IMO.

I was hearing fans, including the sports pundits, in the first month of the season, questioning these coaches, wondering if they were in over their heads and going to get fired before the end of their first season. IMO, that's ludicrous. Not when you look at the situation both of these teams were in going into this season. I admit the Browns were in a better situation, had a higher level of expectation, because of the talent. But they still finished under .500 last season, and with issues. The Bengals were free falling since the last half of '18. That's why they fired Lewis. A new rookie head coach is suppose to turn it into positive direction working with (primarily) the same "talent" they had last year?

Yep, historically, two bad front offices (owners). The difference is, IMO, one owner, who bungled his way through his first few years (Haslam), actually wised up and went out and hired an experienced GM with a solid resume of winning (Dorsey), and is letting him call the shots. You still have the Brown family in Cincy. This is only Dorsey's second year as GM. Regardless of how the Browns are currently playing, he still has my confidence he will take the necessary steps to move this team forward in '20. And that includes shaking up the coaching staff if need be in the off-season. Whether it works or not I don't know. What have I got to lose as a life-long Browns fan? LOL

The Bengals? You're just going to have to be patient with Taylor and give him a chance to effect change, see if he can do it. Judging him on this season, as bad as it's been, is premature IMO. But he has an uphill battle with his control freak owner vs what the Browns are facing.

I've said it before but I'll say it again: there are two main differences between Taylor and Kitchens. Taylor was not a hire from w/i and the Bengals are not ready to win now whereas the Browns are. I'll also repeat that if you were to go beyond your normal vanilla posting style and staked out a position that Zac Taylor was a bad choice, you'd get no argument from me. I'd not get defensive and go all out defending my Bengals and their horrible front office. They have not earned that from me yet. The position that Taylor is a bad hire is a perfectly reasonable one. The truth is the talent on the team is so poor right now, there's no way to judge Taylor at this point. The same cannot be said about the Browns.

After saying all that, the Bengals situation is irrelevant to my comments on the Browns. Your bringing it up is nothing but a red herring 'cause you don't want to limit the conversation to the title of this thread. The Bengals could have brought back David Shula and it wouldn't have changed my opinion on Freddie Kitchens one bit.

As for Kitchens, I'm hoping he wins a few games now so the Browns don't fire him. That'd be ideal. :evil:

[GAC]

I've said it before but I'll say it again: there are two main differences between Taylor and Kitchens. Taylor was not a hire from w/i and the Bengals are not ready to win now whereas the Browns are. I'll also repeat that if you were to go beyond your normal vanilla posting style and staked out a position that Zac Taylor was a bad choice, you'd get no argument from me. I'd not get defensive and go all out defending my Bengals and their horrible front office. They have not earned that from me yet. The position that Taylor is a bad hire is a perfectly reasonable one. The truth is the talent on the team is so poor right now, there's no way to judge Taylor at this point. The same cannot be said about the Browns.

After saying all that, the Bengals situation is irrelevant to my comments on the Browns. Your bringing it up is nothing but a red herring 'cause you don't want to limit the conversation to the title of this thread. The Bengals could have brought back David Shula and it wouldn't have changed my opinion on Freddie Kitchens one bit.

As for Kitchens, I'm hoping he wins a few games now so the Browns don't fire him. That'd be ideal. :evil:

I'm done discussing or pressing this issue with you (finally). Drop it, move on, or just go away LOL

[Sea Ray]

I'm done discussing or pressing this issue with you (finally). Drop it, move on, or just go away LOL

I've got nothing further to add either. In fact I'm tired of repeating myself. I won't go away nor do I expect you to

[Bob Sheed]

Byner, Mack, and Kosar.

And an underrated defense. I thought they had a good WR too, can't remember his name.

That was a good Browns team. 1986 was it?

[Sea Ray]

Byner, Mack, and Kosar.

And an underrated defense. I thought they had a good WR too, can't remember his name.

That was a good Browns team. 1986 was it?

Yes that was a very good Browns team. To what are you referring?

[Bob Sheed]

Yes that was a very good Browns team. To what are you referring?

I think GAC referenced them earlier. Although I could be mistaken.

I like the Browns. Always have. Win or lose, their front office is at least making an effort. Paul Brown would be proud.

[Revering4Blue]

Byner, Mack, and Kosar.

And an underrated defense. I thought they had a good WR too, can't remember his name.

That was a good Browns team. 1986 was it?

I'm trying to do this totally based upon memory without looking the info up. Webster Slaughter may be the WR that you are referring to. IIRC, Ozzie Newsome was TE, with Reggie Langhorne and Brian Brennan were additional WRs.

[Betterread]

I’m not a Browns fan, but the 1986 version should have gone to the Super Bowl. John Elway and “the Drive” robbed them of a super bowl contest. Brian Brennan was their “best” receiver, but the players I remember were their CBs - Dixon and Minnifield. They were my favorite cover guys until neon Deion blew the old standards away in the 90s.

[North]

Joe "Turkey" Jones planting Terry Bradshaw in 1976...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CtcQqwpCFJ4

[Revering4Blue]

I’m not a Browns fan, but the 1986 version should have gone to the Super Bowl. John Elway and “the Drive” robbed them of a super bowl contest. Brian Brennan was their “best” receiver, but the players I remember were their CBs - Dixon and Minnifield. They were my favorite cover guys until neon Deion blew the old standards away in the 90s.

The '87 Browns team, too. It's a moot point now, but I don't believe that, even though the Broncos had a future Hall of Fame QB, it's not a stretch to claim that the aforementioned Browns teams were the better teams overall. Oh, well.

[dubc47834]

Season cooked!!!

[Stray]

Pretty sure melting down on Twitter and threatening to kill people should get you cut. I've seen online meltdowns before, but idk what is even going on with Jermaine Whitehead.

[phatknuckle]

Yep. I still have hope for this team and still believe they will reach at least .500 by the end of the year and will be in the hunt for the AFC North title. The Denver game is pivotal. They can't afford to lose any games to teams they 'should' beat.

I no longer believe they well reach .500, even with an easy 2nd half schedule and adding Kareem Hunt in the mix. This team just isn't working. They are less than the sum of their pieces.

[GAC]

You guys are breaking my heart bringing up memories of those 80s teams. Five AFC Central titles in the 80s, with 85-87 being the best of the era. You guys have already mentioned some, but I'll add some others ... the Pruitts (Greg -out of Oklahoma) and Mike (lives in Lima, OH), Chip Banks, Reggie Langhorne, Hanford Dixon, and Frank Minnifield. But #57 LBer Clay Matthews was the man. Yeah, and he should be in the NFL HOF IMO. It's a joke!

But John Elway should forever thank the Cleveland Browns for launching his career (LOL). In '86 he was considered a budding superstar, but up to this point was getting questioned because of his inconsistency. "The Drive" changed all that, and made Elway Cleveland fans public enemy #1. That was also the game - again, coming out of the chair screaming - that whoever devised the "prevent defense" should be put in front of a firing squad!" Schottenheimer’s defense quit blitzing, was only rushing three guys. And it wasn't like Elway started to immediately carve up the Brown's D, because he wasn't. But because they gave him so much time he slowly, methodically, move them down field. He ties the game, and the Broncos win in OT with a FG that no one remembers (LOL).

But it wasn't just Denver though. The '80 play-off game vs Oakland (Red Right 88) hurts me most of all. To this day still remember where I was at and how I reacted when I saw Sipe fall back to pass - "Why in the **** are you passing the ball when you're on their 13 yd line, less then a minute left, and you can kick the winning FG?" I was hot for a long time over that one (LOL).

That was the second time that QB Plunkett screwed me over (as a Buckeye fan, and as a Brown's fan).

[WVRed]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191104/b52f2aa6a099465319ec99451b177b23.jpg

[GAC]

Pretty sure melting down on Twitter and threatening to kill people should get you cut. I've seen online meltdowns before, but idk what is even going on with Jermaine Whitehead.

He probably suffered dain bramage when TE Fant ran over his *** on that 75 yd TD play (LOL). He can go on social media with his profanity, racist-filled rant, talking about his homies all he wants. But the bottom-line is this ... he's been bad this year, getting burned a lot, AND CAN'T TACKLE! There's a reason why they throw to his side. But he wasn't the only one on that play that should have taken Fant down. IMO, that TD should have never happened, but I've seen this over and over again this year once you get into our secondary. They simply don't know how to tackle. Are they teaching everyone to hit'em high and try to strip the ball? It's sickening.

I hope this results in Whitehead's exit at some point.

[GAC]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191104/b52f2aa6a099465319ec99451b177b23.jpg

I'm not sure if he's going for the Corky Miller or Frank Zappa look" LOL

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRDZ7KURFDgZzo6KRsuNa4hhqSitDgI6 reJX_tFhpwmTKwQalKJ&s


https://iscale.iheart.com/catalog/artist/5241

[RichRed]

I lost track of how many times Chubb was standing on the sidelines during a critical play because Hilliard is the Designated Third Down and Short Yardage Back, or whatever nonsense. It seems like several coaches have this dopey tendency to pull the starting RB in important spots, but Kitchens takes the cake.

[GAC]

My thoughts on the game?

Positives... they cleaned it up. No turnovers and only 5 penalties (40 yds). The offense put up 351 total yards on the #4 defense overall, and, IMO, Mayfield looked better (good numbers). Saw some nice throws, and thought he was doing a good job spreading the ball around (Beckham, Callaway, Landry). Impressed with the direction of rookie LBer Mack Wilson. Had a good game last night, as well as Schobert and Ward. I like watching Ward defend. He knows what he's doing. Hats off to QB Allen and receiver Sutton on that first TD. Ward was in position and had it defended right. Sutton made a helluva catch.

Time of possession and # of plays goes to the Browns ... Browns (35 minutes), Denver's (24). Brown's total plays (73), Denver (43)(Wow!)

Negatives? ....

So how can a team that has time of possession and total plays well over their opposition, no turnovers, and weren't, for the most part, shooting themselves in the foot - lose this game?

Two points over things I saw - and not just last night, but throughout the season - offensively and defensively...

5X they were in Denver's redzone and came away with 12 points and a turnover on downs.


OK. You've got one of the worst RZ offenses in the NFL vs one of the NFL best RZ defenses. That makes it somewhat of an uphill battle. And while I credit Denver's defense there, I'm not letting this coaching staff off the hook (Kitchens and OC Monken) for their poor, and predictable, offensive play-calling in that area of the field (all season). Especially when you're inside the 10, around the 5. Once again, where's Chubbs your workhorse? He didn't touch the ball in the last five minutes prior to the half.

And on that 4-and-out in the 3rd quarter (4th and 1 on their 5 yd line) you televise a QB Sneak using probably the smallest guy on the field? R U serious? LOL I think they should have kicked a FG there because it only puts you down 2 with around four minutes to play, and the defense was making stops.

On defense .... Any defensive coordinator who allows a practice squad QB, thrust into a job where he's taking his first pro snap, and with an offense that has struggled all season - do what he did, should maybe be questioned IMO (LOL). And while this is his first season with the Browns, Wilks actually has an impressive resume. Last year, under DC Williams, the CBs were playing a lot of press man coverage (ideal for a Denzel Ward). This year, under Wilkes, he's made his living with a zone pressure defense with his corners often playing off the line of scrimmage and in zone coverage. Other then Denzel, lack of talent? All I know is that teams are taking what the Brown's defense is giving them, and when they're playing off the line so much in what looks to me like a soft zone coverage (LOL), the middle of the field is wide open.

While they did exert some pressure on Allen, I don't think they exerted it enough, attempting to keep the pressure on this inexperienced QB.

Denver never made it into our redzone one time yesterday. Not once. They didn't have to. They got the big play at critical times when they needed to. I credit QB Allen with his solid decisions, accuracy, didn't try to do too much, and took what the Browns gave him.

This game, especially from an offensive game calling, is another indictment against this coaching staff. They aren't building their case very well so far.

- - - Updated - - -


I lost track of how many times Chubb was standing on the sidelines during a critical play because Hilliard is the Designated Third Down and Short Yardage Back, or whatever nonsense. It seems like several coaches have this dopey tendency to pull the starting RB in important spots, but Kitchens takes the cake.

I'm glad someone else is noticing that (LOL)

[Assembly Hall]

I am trying to grasp the thread title...Back to what?

[traderumor]

I am trying to grasp the thread title...Back to what?

Back to the drawing board?

[Bob Sheed]

I am trying to grasp the thread title...Back to what?

Back from where the Bengals are?

[goreds2]

I am trying to grasp the thread title...Back to what?

https://ewscripps.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/f7bcd31/2147483647/strip/true/crop/640x360+0+34/resize/1280x720!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmediaassets.news5cleveland.com% 2Fphoto%2F2018%2F10%2F29%2FGettyImages-632936216_1540830951966_101692457_ver1.0_640_480.j pg

[Chip R]

Not a Browns fan but I like to observe what's going on in the whole NFL and I have to own up that I was all in favor of Kitchens coming back. The run they had in the last half of 2018 looked like they would continue that in 2019. The main criticism of Kitchens was that he had never been a head coach anywhere. A valid criticism but it just seemed like they had to bring Kitchens back. But it seems that Kitchens is clearly out of his depth as a head coach. It kind of reminds me what Sam Rayburn once said to LBJ when Johnson was glowing about how smart the people JFK brought in. Rayburn said, “Well, Lyndon, you may be right and they may be every bit as intelligent as you say, but I’d feel a whole lot better about them if just one of them had run for sheriff once.”

One of their big problems is lack of discipline. We've got OBJ with his shoe and watch drama. Mayfield's going off on reporters, one of the other players just threatened to kill a member of the media. There doesn't seem to be any accountability on that team. Players seem to be focusing more on other things besides football.

[GAC]

I am trying to grasp the thread title...Back to what?

Just another example of the misguided hype (expectations) IMO. LOL

[GAC]

He not be hanging with his homies now ... https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28005022/cleveland-browns-waive-jermaine-whitehead-threatening-posts

[Bob Sheed]

He lost his cool. In 2018 he would have been ok. But 2019? Game Over.

Crazy world.

[GAC]

He lost his cool. In 2018 he would have been ok. But 2019? Game Over.


I disagree. Did you read the content of the Tweets? It wouldn't have been OK in any year IMO with his racist-filled rant wanting to kill people. He even stupidly included his home address to one, told him to come over - "Imma kill you b****.. that’s on blood"

https://foxsportsradio.iheart.com/content/2019-11-04-browns-cut-player-after-making-threatening-and-racist-tweet-at-reporter/

[Bob Sheed]

I disagree. Did you read the content of the Tweets? It wouldn't have been OK in any year IMO with his racist-filled rant wanting to kill people. He even stupidly included his home address to one, told him to come over - "Imma kill you b****.. that’s on blood"

https://foxsportsradio.iheart.com/content/2019-11-04-browns-cut-player-after-making-threatening-and-racist-tweet-at-reporter/

I think we forget how quickly our tolerance for those kinds of things has shifted, even over the past year, 2 years, 5 years. Very quickly.

"Racist filled?" I mean, I agree, but count me as surprised that society now agrees too.

2 years ago, "cracker" wouldn't have registered on any media's radar. Now, not only does it register, it's suddenly a "racist tirade " That's interesting to me.

Social media in general was very much the wild west until the past couple of years. It went from being able to say whatever, to people digging up what someone said on social media back when people said whatever.... Very quickly.

2 years ago, this is a non issue, maybe a slap on the wrist, and no mention of racism.

[GAC]

I'm just glad he's gone Bob. And if it took this Tweet to do it, then I'm fine with it (LOL). I watched this guy all year get burned time after time, miss assignments, and basically act lost out there. Plus, did I mention he can't tackle? LOL

[Sea Ray]

Not a good look:


Freddie Kitchens on Baker Mayfield's Numbers: 'I Truly Don't Look at Stats'


https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2861517-freddie-kitchens-on-baker-mayfields-numbers-i-truly-dont-look-at-stats

How do you expect to evaluate players if you refuse to look at stats?

[Kingspoint]

Not a good look:



https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2861517-freddie-kitchens-on-baker-mayfields-numbers-i-truly-dont-look-at-stats

How do you expect to evaluate players if you refuse to look at stats?

That's not what he said.

[RedTeamGo!]

I think we forget how quickly our tolerance for those kinds of things has shifted, even over the past year, 2 years, 5 years. Very quickly.

"Racist filled?" I mean, I agree, but count me as surprised that society now agrees too.

2 years ago, "cracker" wouldn't have registered on any media's radar. Now, not only does it register, it's suddenly a "racist tirade " That's interesting to me.

Social media in general was very much the wild west until the past couple of years. It went from being able to say whatever, to people digging up what someone said on social media back when people said whatever.... Very quickly.

2 years ago, this is a non issue, maybe a slap on the wrist, and no mention of racism.

Yeah, but you’re the exact person that would have cried “why isn’t this considered racist?!??!?!!! This is a ridiculous double standard!” Two years ago.

[Sea Ray]

That's not what he said.

Sure he did. I saw the video on tv but it's also documented in that article:


"There's a lot of factors that go into that," he said. "I don't think he's just wildly missing passes. I don't really look at that. I truly do not look at stats."

[Boston Red]

Yeah, but you’re the exact person that would have cried “why isn’t this considered racist?!??!?!!! This is a ridiculous double standard!” Two years ago.

This is an odd reply. I'm pretty sure Bob's post says that he thinks the social media posts were racist (which they of course were). Just that he's surprised that sensibilities have changed in the recent past to match his on this particular point.

[RedTeamGo!]

This is an odd reply. I'm pretty sure Bob's post says that he thinks the social media posts were racist (which they of course were). Just that he's surprised that sensibilities have changed in the recent past to match his on this particular point.

I thought I picked up a tone of “this should be nothing” from the post, I reserve the right to be wrong.

[Kingspoint]

Sure he did. I saw the video on tv but it's also documented in that article:

You did better at trying to recreate what he said this time. What you said before was flat out wrong.

[GAC]

You did better at trying to recreate what he said this time. What you said before was flat out wrong.

I've watched practically every one of Kitchen's post-game interviews (going back to last season), as well as various other interviews and articles. He talks stats, among many other things.

Everyone, and I do mean everyone, knows Mayfield ain't having a good year so far (LOL). JMO, but when a reporter throws my QB's numbers at me in an interview knowing that... especially when it involves Completion %, a QB missing receivers ... as a head coach I'd dodge the question too because the first thing I'd say to myself is "Where is he trying to go with this line of questioning?" I'm not going to allow the media to lead me to an area where their headline the next day is "Kitchen Lay Brown's Woes On Mayfield". A good head coach, IMO, when in that public venue will take any heat - even with something he might say - and not do that to a young QB who is struggling.

When referring to evaluating and/or projecting talent (emphasis needed), compare what the article said in comparison to SeaRay's position on Reliever Rainey over on the Tanner Roarke trade thread .....


he doesn't believe a glance at the numbers can provide a full assessment on the performance of quarterback Baker Mayfield.

He's a former QB coach. He's working with a young, inexperienced QB. I'd say he's doing far more watching/observing of Mayfield right now, on the practice field, in games, to see if there are behaviors, mannerisms, tendencies, that are contributing to those bad numbers and how to correct them. That may be a bigger part of the job right now. You don't allow the numbers to be that great of an influence at this stage. Later, yes. But how many high draft QBs have we seen over the years struggle, and struggle badly, in their first year or two?... Wentz, Luck, Stafford, the list goes on. Why is Mayfield treated differently? Everyone is wanting to form a projection/prediction of this kid of failure when, IMO, it's erroneous to do so at this stage. But do what thou wilt (LOL).



This is why it behooves you to actually watch baseball and not exclusively crunch numbers when evaluating and projecting talent

Sounds to me that Kitchens is doing exactly what you promote.

But if you want to believe (promote) that Kitchens does not look at stats AT ALL (i.e ignores them) - and that is what you're claiming by posting that link - then you have every right to do so. Your point is made. I disagree with a such an assertion because his past behavior has shown me he does.

[GAC]

This is an odd reply. I'm pretty sure Bob's post says that he thinks the social media posts were racist (which they of course were). Just that he's surprised that sensibilities have changed in the recent past to match his on this particular point.

I read this article just the other day on Earl Campbell.... https://sports.yahoo.com/earl-campbell-thinks-texas-needs-a-black-quarterback-to-win-184617175.html


I loved Earl because he hearkens back to what I refer to as the "glory days" of the 70s and the old AFC Central. Brutal conference IMO. The guy was one of the most punishing RBs I have ever seen in my lifetime. Bum Phillips burned him out IMO.

People were upset with Earl because they felt he was reinforcing the stereotypes on black athletes. In fact, a few people in the sports industry have lost their jobs haven't they for making such a contention in the past? Not my point though, and I certainly don't want to see any "repercussions" taken against Earl. IMO, I do not think Earl's intent was racism believing black athletes are more naturally gifted physically, athletically, then whites. IMO, I think he holds a subjective opinion that was formed (rooted), and then grew, since Jackie Robinson, or a Jim Brown, stepped one foot on the playing field and were competing against whites. I wonder how many people in our society today, if asked that question, and were really honest with themselves, would agree with that assessment which is based solely on observation (watching blacks play/compete). Maybe that's the reason it hasn't gotten such attention because a lot agree with him yet wouldn't say it publicly for fear of being labelled racist.

With me, it would be racist, and very blatant, intolerable, racism depending on the intent behind it - this is all they're good at. You've just earned your badge in the Aryan Nation IMO.

And maybe Earl's fighting back against another stereotype (fallacy) that was perpetuated for years that successful QBs were white. ;)

IMO, the main issue with Earl's contention on the QB position is that his observations, is not so much the promotion of the stereotype; but like many in society (black or white) it led him to a misguided conclusion that isn't based on history and reality?

What I find interesting, and somewhat humorous, concerning this stereotype is that whether it involved my black friend/school-mates I grew up playing/competing with - or - the black friends I have now.... the majority seem to believe that stereotype of black athletes superiority over white athletes, and jokingly, in a good-natured way like to have fun with it. LOL

[Sea Ray]

You did better at trying to recreate what he said this time. What you said before was flat out wrong.

"I truly do not look at stats" is an exact quote. All I did the second time was give the entire paragraph from the linked article. That information was conveniently linked for anyone who wished to discuss it further but that is an exact quote

[Sea Ray]

Sounds to me that Kitchens is doing exactly what you promote.

But if you want to believe (promote) that Kitchens does not look at stats AT ALL (i.e ignores them) - and that is what you're claiming by posting that link - then you have every right to do so. Your point is made. I disagree with a such an assertion because his past behavior has shown me he does.

As my quote says which you went through the trouble to link from an unrelated section, it's best that a coach does both...watches games and crunches stats. He said in his own words that he does not look at stats.

[GAC]

As my quote says which you went through the trouble to link from an unrelated section

In journalism, the opening paragraph of an article summarizes it's main idea. It is not unrelated simply because you choose to say so (LOL). It leads into the story, and said ....


Cleveland Browns head coach Freddie Kitchens said Wednesday he doesn't believe a glance at the numbers can provide a full assessment on the performance of quarterback Baker Mayfield

Like Bleacher Report, who, IMO, is the TMZ of sports journalism, you took one line out of a statement, out of context, and ran with it as a headline.

Again, if you want to believe that Kitchens doesn't look at stats AT ALL, then that's our right (opinion). I'm not going to debate, nor discuss, this with you further. Pointless.

[Sea Ray]

In journalism, the opening paragraph of an article summarizes it's main idea. It is not unrelated simply because you choose to say so (LOL). It leads into the story, and said ....



Like Bleacher Report, who, IMO, is the TMZ of sports journalism, you took one line out of a statement, out of context, and ran with it as a headline.

Again, if you want to believe that Kitchens doesn't look at stats AT ALL, then that's our right (opinion). I'm not going to debate, nor discuss, this with you further. Pointless.

Hey, I saw the press conference. If you think he didn't mean what he said, fine. I heard him say it. In fact it was the last sentence he said in that sound bite.He did not qualify it later. It's news. It was all over the Press and all over the national talk shows. This isn't about me or Bleacher Report, however hard you try to make it. It's a national story that I brought here for discussion. Apparently your take on it is that he didn't mean it. Fine, but he did say it and it's certainly worthy of discussion as it did raise eyebrows.

[GAC]

I always like to look at match-ups with the Brown's upcoming opponent (weaknesses/strengths), and see how I think the Browns should approach the game.

This offense's poor/erratic performance this year has everyone so busy scrutinizing Kitchens/Mayfield (and they should), that this defense's poor play, on one side of the ball, has kind of been over-looked. And this is really disappointing to me. The Brown's Run D is 30th, allowing 141 yds/game. They're 24th in Yards Allowed Per Attempt (7.7). Yet our Pass D (Yds/G) is 6th (216/Yds/G). And with all the injuries to our secondary - S Randall returned to practice but doubtful - I find this amazing.

The Bills Run D is better, but nothing to brag about (112 yds/G). But their Pass D is one of the best (184 Yds/G), only behind the 49ers and Pats.

And I've been looking forward to this game in particular because QB Allen was my guy going into the draft (LOL). You look at both of these young QBs, and both are struggling in adjustment (process), their numbers are pretty similar, no huge disparity, other then Baker has thrown more INTS.

Both of these teams turn the ball over, have a negative turnover differential, though the Browns win that contest at -8 to -1 (LOL).

You got two teams who have solid pass defenses. Throw two young QBs trying to find their way into that mix, and it may be a rough afternoon for both. Something inside of me says this is going to be a sloppy game all-around with both teams. Numerous gambling sites I've read say this game could go either way - so take the under 40 (LOL).

Both teams should run the crap out of the ball looking at their respective Run Defenses, and keep as much pressure off these young QBs as possible. A couple weeks ago the Eagles ran the ball down the Bill's throats for 218 yds (3 rushing TDs) in a 31-13 win. The Browns have Chubb and get RB Hunt back. Going to be interesting to see the Brown's game plan here.

Yet I listened to Baker this week say the chemistry between him and Beckham is improving. He then goes on to say he wants to "force feed" Beckham early on to where he can make an impact before we can have the perfect look to have a shot play. I don't like the sound of that (LOL). Beckham has been under a lot of double coverage this year, and for obvious reasons. You don't force the ball in those situations. But what you do do ... and I've seen it numerous times this year where Beckham has been in one-on-one ... you take that shot then, put the ball up, and let Beckham be Beckham. Baker has been hesitant to do so this year.

I miss RB Duke Johnson because he was great hands and was a solid receiving back. I hope they utilize either Chubb or Hunt in that role Sunday. Running game opens up the passing game.

IMO, the Bill's defense could be the difference-maker in this game.

[Kingspoint]

Could be a signature win here?

[RedTeamGo!]

Could be a signature win here?

Lol no. Did you watch the game? The offensive play calling was still completely awful.

[phatknuckle]

Lol no. Did you watch the game? The offensive play calling was still completely awful.

Win or not, this game left me feeling uneasy as ever. Their offense is awful, whether that is on Mayfield, the offensive line or the play calling they are not winning anything unless it somehow gels. I keep waiting, but they just aren't getting better. They had something like 7 snaps in one series goal to go of less than 3 yards and couldn't score a touchdown. Kitchen's decisions are awful as ever.

[Redsfaithful]

They beat a 6-2 team, have to be happy with that and hope for more growth, both players and coaches.

Finish 6-1 and they've got a shot, but the Steelers, not surprisingly, haven't died, so the Wild Card is going to be tough.

[Kingspoint]

Lol no. Did you watch the game? The offensive play calling was still completely awful.

No, I didn't. Aren't most Buffalo games ugly, though? That's the game they play. Beating them in that style has been tough to do for most teams this season.

[GAC]

Alright! For the first time this season I did not get to watch my Browns.. and they won. So that's the winning formula - I'm not allowed to watch any more Brown games this year (LOL).

We did have some personal family matters to attend to, that needed done, and the wife gave me an ultimatum .... We can get it down Saturday and you can watch your Browns, or do it Sunday and you can watch college football. So it came down to one game vs 8-10 really good college games (match-ups). I guess I chose wisely. I saw some of it at Texas Roadhouse, and got home to see the last 5-6 minutes of the game (which turned out to be the best part).




No, I didn't. Aren't most Buffalo games ugly, though? That's the game they play. Beating them in that style has been tough to do for most teams this season.

I knew this was going to be an ugly game with these two young (struggling) QBs facing stout pass defenses. Again, the Bills are #3, and the Browns #6 in that area. But again, I didn't get to watch most of the game, so as far as play calling, I can't say. But look at the numbers ...

385 yards total. Mayfield was 26/38 for 238 yds, 2 TDs, and finished with his highest QB Rating of the season (102.7) vs a Bill's Pass D that only allows 184 yds/G. I'd say Baker did fine. Chubb ran for 116 yds (5.8 yds/carry), and I thought they used Hunt wisely in his first game back as a dual threat, but was most valuable as a receiver (74 total yds, 44 receiving).

Another game with no turnovers and they continue to clean it up on the penalties. Only had 4, none in the 4Q; but two of them were for 15 yards (PI and roughing passer). Landry had a solid day 9/97. I saw the highlight of his TD reception. Helluva catch and Mayfield put it right there.

Kitchen's plan was to stop the Bill's run game, who have relied on it heavily this year, and make Allen beat them. The Brown's Run D is one of the worst (141 yds/game). The Bills had 84 yards rushing.

But when the Bills scored and went up 16-12 I thought this team showed some character by coming back with their own drive and winning the game.

Should have put some money down on the under 40 (LOL)

[BuckeyeRed27]

Win or not, this game left me feeling uneasy as ever. Their offense is awful, whether that is on Mayfield, the offensive line or the play calling they are not winning anything unless it somehow gels. I keep waiting, but they just aren't getting better. They had something like 7 snaps in one series goal to go of less than 3 yards and couldn't score a touchdown. Kitchen's decisions are awful as ever.

I’ve been critical of Kitchens, but that goal line sequence isn’t on him. He mixed up the play calling, tried to get the ball to his best players and didn’t call anything stupid. At some point the line has to push someone back and execute. That one is on the players.

[phatknuckle]

I’ve been critical of Kitchens, but that goal line sequence isn’t on him. He mixed up the play calling, tried to get the ball to his best players and didn’t call anything stupid. At some point the line has to push someone back and execute. That one is on the players.

When you are that bad in the red zone despite being able to move the ball pretty easily between the twenties, play calling is absolutely part of the issue.

My biggest issue with the goal line sequence is he didn't (to my memory) utilize the two back set with both Chubb and Hunt in the backfield. I have to believe that is a short-yardage nightmare for a defense. Both are strong runners and strong receivers. Pretty hard to guess where the ball is going. If you can't get push you need some sort of misdirection. That and going for it on forth down when you've not been able to move the ball an inch on the six previous attempts. He was going to go for it the next time the got into that situation as well until a false start bailed out the Browns. Otherwise this very well might have been another loss.

[dubc47834]

"I truly do not look at stats" is an exact quote. All I did the second time was give the entire paragraph from the linked article. That information was conveniently linked for anyone who wished to discuss it further but that is an exact quote

He's supposed to use the eye test...at least that's what's being said over in the NBA thread...stats don't count, the eye test is what matters. Maybe that is what Kitchens is using!

[Sea Ray]

He's supposed to use the eye test...at least that's what's being said over in the NBA thread...stats don't count, the eye test is what matters. Maybe that is what Kitchens is using!

I don't follow the NBA nor do I read that thread but I'll take your word for it...:thumbup:

[Kingspoint]

Alright! For the first time this season I did not get to watch my Browns.. and they won. So that's the winning formula - I'm not allowed to watch any more Brown games this year (LOL).

We did have some personal family matters to attend to, that needed done, and the wife gave me an ultimatum .... We can get it down Saturday and you can watch your Browns, or do it Sunday and you can watch college football. So it came down to one game vs 8-10 really good college games (match-ups). I guess I chose wisely. I saw some of it at Texas Roadhouse, and got home to see the last 5-6 minutes of the game (which turned out to be the best part).





I knew this was going to be an ugly game with these two young (struggling) QBs facing stout pass defenses. Again, the Bills are #3, and the Browns #6 in that area. But again, I didn't get to watch most of the game, so as far as play calling, I can't say. But look at the numbers ...

385 yards total. Mayfield was 26/38 for 238 yds, 2 TDs, and finished with his highest QB Rating of the season (102.7) vs a Bill's Pass D that only allows 184 yds/G. I'd say Baker did fine. Chubb ran for 116 yds (5.8 yds/carry), and I thought they used Hunt wisely in his first game back as a dual threat, but was most valuable as a receiver (74 total yds, 44 receiving).

Another game with no turnovers and they continue to clean it up on the penalties. Only had 4, none in the 4Q; but two of them were for 15 yards (PI and roughing passer). Landry had a solid day 9/97. I saw the highlight of his TD reception. Helluva catch and Mayfield put it right there.

Kitchen's plan was to stop the Bill's run game, who have relied on it heavily this year, and make Allen beat them. The Brown's Run D is one of the worst (141 yds/game). The Bills had 84 yards rushing.

But when the Bills scored and went up 16-12 I thought this team showed some character by coming back with their own drive and winning the game.

Should have put some money down on the under 40 (LOL)

There are a lot of positives there, especially the zero turnovers and four penalties against a very tough Defense. That shows discipline, and discipline as we enter the playoff chase run when games get tougher from late November to the end of December. A lot of teams start quitting right now while the cream rises to the top.

[Kingspoint]

I’ve been critical of Kitchens, but that goal line sequence isn’t on him. He mixed up the play calling, tried to get the ball to his best players and didn’t call anything stupid. At some point the line has to push someone back and execute. That one is on the players.

Buffalo's Defense is as good as any team in the league in that situation.

[GAC]

I’ve been critical of Kitchens, but that goal line sequence isn’t on him. He mixed up the play calling, tried to get the ball to his best players and didn’t call anything stupid. At some point the line has to push someone back and execute. That one is on the players.

Yeah. I've been critical all season of Kitchens not using Chubb, pounding the ball in when down near the goal-line (inside the 5). Can't fault him for that Sunday. He was doing it. I guess credit the Bills for stuffing it each and every time.

Again, I didn't get to see the game; but as I go back and review the game, and listen to what others are saying, pointing out specific situations during the game, I can agree there were some bad decisions made by Kitchens ... going empty backfield on the Mayfield safety (no protection at all) was bone-head.... He needs to ditch the shovel-pitch play. Have yet to see it work. And don't be trying it with a guy who has been out all year, his first game back.

But here, IMO, is the area that is going to make/break Kitchens, and this entire offensive coaching staff because it's been a HUGE issue all season and not seeing much progress.... red-zone offense.

They were 1 for 5 the week prior in Denver. But Sunday's game was the epitome. Two drives they had the ball on the Bill's one yard line - and couldn't punch it in. The first NFL team since the '93 Jets to run six plays from an opponent's 2-yard line or closer on a possession without scoring. And they had two more attempts because of false starts (LOL).

That's bad folks! And with this team it's not about simply getting into the rz, but they're usually inside the 10 or 5 yard line first and goal. Kitchens says it's the O-line missing assignments. There's truth there. Especially when your RB is nailed in the backfield as soon as he's handed the ball. And the Browns have had O-line woes, shuffling guys around. Kitchens said this after the game... https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/3-big-takeaways-browns-pick-best-possible-time-to-avenge-red-zone-woes


“I need to call better plays when we get down there. But I am telling you right now, we are running the ball when we get down there."

Better plays? Uh,Yeah. Because one of the first observations made after the game, when the Browns were getting stuffed at the goal-line, were the slow-developing hand-offs/pitches that are so obvious to defenses in those situations and easy to defend. Yet they kept running the same thing (LOL).

I liked this SI article's observation, and defintely agree they need to use all their weapons and spread it out down there ..... https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/browns-maven-features/the-red-zone-exposes-cleveland-browns-offensive-limitations/


The Browns probably should've spread their offense out earlier in the game. As much as everyone would prefer to be able to put everyone in the box and power their way into the end zone, the Browns proved without a doubt they couldn't do it, so it was logical to just go ahead and force the defense to spread out, emptying out the box and giving the offense more options....

The Browns desperately miss David Njoku, who has been on injured reserve since week two. Whether he lined up out wide for goal line fades or in the middle of the formation, defenses had to account for him, sometimes with multiple defenders. That helped create uncertainty on defense which resulted in running lanes to get in the end zone. The difference in red zone efficiency from last year to this year is difficult to ignore and Njoku is the missing piece.

Last year the Browns had a 68% success rate (TD only) when in the red-zone. This year it's 47%, and only 30% in the last three games.

You better fix it quick before Thursday night's game (LOL).

[North]

Browns 14, Squeelers 0 at the half.

What will the 2nd half bring? :p

15414

[North]

Jeeze..PGH loses 4 starters in the first half, now another interception. So sad. :party:

[Chip R]

I think there's going to be some suspensions handed out here.

https://twitter.com/NFLCov/status/1195201794869202944?s=09

[kaldaniels]

Of course Joe Buck is the announcer for such an outrageous situation.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean you can’t defend swinging the helmet but Rudolph landed a kick to the crotch of Garrett in the early stage of the skirmish.

[Stray]

I think there's going to be some suspensions handed out here.

https://twitter.com/NFLCov/status/1195201794869202944?s=09

Job suspension might not be enough here, tho that's likely all that will come of it. You go swinging hard objects at other people's head and you should go to jail. Period.

Lotta ways to get seriously hurt in football that are part of the game. Ripping someone's helmet off and bashing them in the head is not part of the game.

[SteelSD]

GAC, good game from the Browns. Schobert, in particular was awesome for you guys. I hope Burnett's ankle doesn't keep him out for long.

I do, however, think that you may have lost Garrett for potentially the rest of the season. Ripping off someone's helmet and then hitting him in the head with it is likely the worst thing I've ever seen done in professional sports. I gained a lot of respect for Mayfield due to his post-game comments and hope the Steelers players see a replay of it at some point. As cocky as Mayfield can get, that was particularly classy.

Again, good game and hopefully Pittsburgh has it's own injured players back in two weeks for the rematch.

[Playadlc]

Garrett could get a lifetime ban. It was that bad.

[kaldaniels]

Garrett could get a lifetime ban. It was that bad.

Garrett will not get a lifetime ban.

(Not defending him, but that’s a bit much)

[Playadlc]

Garrett will not get a lifetime ban.

(Not defending him, but that’s a bit much)

I don’t know man. I think the NFL is getting tired of this. This was really bad. And it happening on MNF where everyone saw it? The NFL will come down hard.

I also think Rudolph deserves a suspension as well, btw.

[Stray]

Dirty play is part of the game and always will be. It always happens within the game tho. Cheap hits, stuff in the pile, dirty blocks...etc. Swinging a helmet at an unprotected head is not that.

It would be like a baseball player charging the mound and swinging a bat at a pitcher's head.

This is really bad and judging by the NFL's track record, I'm sure they will not handle it properly.

[ScotlandRed]

I love the NFL and get that it’s such a testosterone fuelled sport, but the macho alpha male attitude of virtually all the players, coupled with the insecure prima-donas means I don’t find myself liking a lot of the players in the league.

[kaldaniels]

Mayfield/Kitchens handling this well.

The helmet swing was unacceptable and they aren’t shying away from it.

[SteelSD]

Dirty play is part of the game and always will be. It always happens within the game tho. Cheap hits, stuff in the pile, dirty blocks...etc. Swinging a helmet at an unprotected head is not that.

It would be like a baseball player charging the mound and swinging a bat at a pitcher's head.

This is really bad and judging by the NFL's track record, I'm sure they will not handle it properly.

The only thing I can really equate it to is hockey- when Marty McSorley slashed Donald Brashear in the head in early 2000. McSorley was suspended for the rest of the season and later was charged and convicted of assault. He never played again in the NHL. And that's a sport where fighting, while not officially condoned, still isn't outlawed. So I dunno how the NFL is going to handle this one.

[Stray]

Mayfield/Kitchens handling this well.

The helmet swing was unacceptable and they aren’t shying away from it.

Was really impressed by Baker's postgame interview. He was honest and didn't pull punches.

[kaldaniels]

Swinging a helmet is unacceptable.

But what got to that point?

Rudolph tried to rip Garretts helmet off and failed. Rudolph kicked Garrett in the manhood...not sure how well it landed but see for yourself.

After that Garrett tried and succeeded in ripping Mason's helmet off. And was charged by the Rudolph and the Steeler O-Lineman. Then the helmet swing happened.

Of course Garrett will and should be suspended but this banned for life and assault stuff is a bit much.

(Murmurs that Rudolph used a slur of sorts on Browns' boards - I'm just reporting what I'm reading)

[Stray]

Swinging a helmet is unacceptable.

But what got to that point?

Rudolph tried to rip Garretts helmet off and failed. Rudolph kicked Garrett in the manhood...not sure how well it landed but see for yourself.

After that Garrett tried and succeeded in ripping Mason's helmet off. And was charged by the Rudolph and the Steeler O-Lineman. Then the helmet swing happened.

Of course Garrett will and should be suspended but this banned for life and assault stuff is a bit much.

Unless your life is in danger does it really matter what happened before you swing a hard object and connect with another person's head? I mean, these are the kinda things that we all understand right? If I take a hammer or a 2x4 to someone's head, I know the consequences.

Not saying Rudolph is without blame here, but it wasn't that Garrett just kinda crossed a line...he could have literally killed him. That's different.

[BuckeyeRed27]

I don’t know man. I think the NFL is getting tired of this. This was really bad. And it happening on MNF where everyone saw it? The NFL will come down hard.

I also think Rudolph deserves a suspension as well, btw.

It’s absolutely bad, but stop it with the life time stuff. He’s gonna get 4 to 6 games. Pouncey and the other lineman are gonna get 2 and Rudolph should get 1 or a massive fine.

[North]

Nice win. We could talk about formar PGH spearer-in-chief Shaizer, I suppose.

[Stray]

There's no defending this. The best news for Garrett is that Rudolph is hard headed and wasn't seriously harmed from this. It doesn't matter what happened before, this can kill someone.

https://twitter.com/bubbaprog/status/1195200405799657473

[kaldaniels]

It’s absolutely bad, but stop it with the life time stuff. He’s gonna get 4 to 6 games. Pouncey and the other lineman are gonna get 2 and Rudolph should get 1 or a massive fine.

Garrett’s fatal error here was that he didn’t instantly drop the helmet.

Once he was up, helmet in hand being pushed back, I think fight or flight took over.

His momentum was going backward and he swung the helmet and coming over the top like that he was going to hit Rudolph with the padding (which he did).

I’m just not getting the “he could have killed him” vibe. I mean an intentional fastball up and in could kill a guy but no one is calling for lifetime bans for that.

If Garrett is suspended for the year I won’t complain. But again anything past that is a bit much.

[Stray]

Garrett’s fatal error here was that he didn’t instantly drop the helmet.

Once he was up, helmet in hand being pushed back, I think fight or flight took over.

His momentum was going backward and he swung the helmet and coming over the top like that he was going to hit Rudolph with the padding (which he did).

I’m just not getting the “he could have killed him” vibe. I mean an intentional fastball up and in could kill a guy but no one is calling for lifetime bans for that.

If Garrett is suspended for the year I won’t complain. But again anything past that is a bit much.

A fastball up and in is still part of the game of baseball.

Taking off another player's helmet and bashing them in the head isn't at all a football play.

[WVRed]

Vontaze Burfict: “I’m the most hated player in Pittsburgh”

Myles Garrett: “Hold my beer”

Considering this was Cleveland, this could have been Malice at the Palace bad if the fans made it to the field like ESPN was describing.

[phatknuckle]

I must have turned off the game right before that happened. That was really bad. I don't really care what Rudolph did that lead up to it, there is absolutely no excuse for using a helmet as a weapon.

Garrett will forever be defined by that. He should be suspended for the rest of the season and will (rightfully) get Burfict/Suh level of scrutiny the rest of his career.

It's a shame, otherwise it was such a good win for the Browns.

[RedsBaron]

I can recall the Oakland Raiders Lyle Alzado in the early 1980s pulling off an opponent's helmet and throwing it at him. That's the only precedent I can recall for what happened last night.

[mth123]

Job suspension might not be enough here, tho that's likely all that will come of it. You go swinging hard objects at other people's head and you should go to jail. Period.

Lotta ways to get seriously hurt in football that are part of the game. Ripping someone's helmet off and bashing them in the head is not part of the game.

Absolutely. Anything less than banned for life isn't enough for the NFL. Jail time should also be part of the equation.

[Griffey012]

Absolutely. Anything less than banned for life isn't enough for the NFL. Jail time should also be part of the equation.

Then you might as well ban anyone who has had a ruthless helmet to helmet hit on a defenseless player.

If he had squared up and hit a blindsided Rudolph with a helmet, yeah ban that dude for life and charge him with the crime. But let's be honest with the situation, this wasn't a full force hit to the head with a helmet, he was being push backward as he did it.

He deserves a lengthy suspension, definitely rest of season, perhaps a 16 game suspension. Not a lifetime ban, as far as I know he doesn't have a prior rap sheet.

[Bob Sheed]

Too bad Garrett isn't a Steeler.

He'd be up for Defensive Player of the Week.

[Griffey012]

Too bad Garrett isn't a Steeler.

He'd be up for Defensive Player of the Week.

Somewhere Gregg Williams is looking to acquire Garrett.

[RedTeamGo!]

Too bad Garrett isn't a Steeler.

He'd be up for Defensive Player of the Week.

This is nonsense. He tore the helmet off of and opposing player and hit him in the head with it like it was a weapon.

[Bob Sheed]

I knew before clicking on this thread that SteelSD would be here straight away, condoning this horrible deed. :lol:

[Bob Sheed]

This is nonsense. He tore the helmet off of and opposing player and hit him in the head with it like it was a weapon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDEJcbcHB_A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP4JfqHDlps


mm hmmm.... That 2nd clip there with the attack to the head with the helmet is the one where the NFL really cracked down.

Shazier's punishment was NFL Defensive Player of the Week, with credit for the forced fumble. Hopefully they lay down the law in a similar fashion with Garrett. I mean, c'mon. It's not like he was a coach and tripped somebody from the sideline, or something crazy like that.

[RedTeamGo!]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDEJcbcHB_A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP4JfqHDlps


mm hmmm.... That 2nd clip there with the attack to the head with the helmet is the one where the NFL really cracked down.

Shazier's punishment was NFL Defensive Player of the Week, with credit for the forced fumble. Hopefully they lay down the law in a similar fashion with Garrett. I mean, c'mon. It's not like he was a coach and tripped somebody from the sideline, or something crazy like that.

Shazier’s hit was a dirty tackle during a football play. Garrett tore a helmet off of an opposing player between plays and hit him in the head with it as if it were a club. If you can’t see the difference between the two I’m just not sure what to say.

[GAC]

GAC, good game from the Browns. Schobert, in particular was awesome for you guys. I hope Burnett's ankle doesn't keep him out for long.

I do, however, think that you may have lost Garrett for potentially the rest of the season. Ripping off someone's helmet and then hitting him in the head with it is likely the worst thing I've ever seen done in professional sports. I gained a lot of respect for Mayfield due to his post-game comments and hope the Steelers players see a replay of it at some point. As cocky as Mayfield can get, that was particularly classy.

Again, good game and hopefully Pittsburgh has it's own injured players back in two weeks for the rematch.

Good post. Look. You and I have been around long enough, as respective Steeler and Brown fans, to know there is no love lost between our two organizations. And I have enjoyed the bitter rivalry, even though the Steelers have dominated it, for more then 40 years (LOL). I expected this type of game. The Steelers have the reputation, and IMO relish it, of being the "Bad Boys" of the NFL. Their players are dirty, blah, blah, blah. Not saying there isn't a grain of truth there (IMO), but that's not why they are winners. I've said it before, and still stand by it .... Cleveland and Cincinnati would love to have an ownership like the Rooney family. I've always tipped my hat to them because they know how to build a culture of winning, pure and simple.

As a Brown's fan, last night I wanted my team to go toe-to-toe with Pitt, get just as physical. I was watching receivers for both teams, and the defenders - and these guys were grabbing, holding pushing each other as they ran down the field. Nobody was giving anybody anything, and was trying to get away with anything they could. IMO, there could have been a lot more flags thrown then there were. I think the refs said "To heel with it. Let'em fight it out!" (LOL).

This is a Pittsburgh team that offensively doesn't have the weapons it used to. I'm actually impressed they're 5-5. But again, the Rooneys.

What Garret did was inexcusable. He will be severely disciplined. But lets not also forget the Brown's Randall who was ejected. That play was over, and there was no excuse for him to lower his head and make helmet-to helmet like that. Then stand there smiling afterwards. He'll get a suspension too.

I think defensive coordinator Wilks called a solid scheme. Schobert has been awesome all year. But I want the Browns to play hard, aggressive, and above all - smart football.

And yeah, I thought Baker was all class after the game commenting on this. You just really hurt your team dude!

See ya in two weeks SD! I wonder how both teams are going to react? I'm sure both of these head coaches are gonna lay the law down before this rematch! :thumbup:

[WVRed]

So after watching the replays, am I the only one who noticed Rudolph trying to yank Garrett’s helmet off before Garrett did it to him?

[Boston Red]

Rudolph should get 1

Why would you reward the Steelers by suspending Rudolph? The correct punishment there is to require the Steelers to continue to use him every snap the rest of the season. Brandon Weeden thinks he's terrible.

[Sea Ray]

Just guessing here but since that's what we do here, my guess is that Garrett will get suspended "indefinitely" and he'll have to apply for reinstatement in the off season. As for Rudolph I don't see any suspension for him. The interesting one is Pouncey. What will he get for defending his QB?

[GAC]

I don’t know man. I think the NFL is getting tired of this. This was really bad. And it happening on MNF where everyone saw it? The NFL will come down hard.

I also think Rudolph deserves a suspension as well, btw.

They didn't see anything on Monday night. ;)

Garrett is going to get a lengthy suspension IMO. No excuse. But Rudolph initiated the fight, was kicking Garrett in the groin while also trying to rip Garrett's helmet off. Garrett rips off Rudolph's helmet, hits him in the head. Then, after Garrett is taken down by Pitt players, Rudolph tries to come in for some cheap shots. Did anyone see Inside The NFL where Willie McGinest condemned Garrett's actions and said he deserves a severe suspension; but injected into the discussion just who actually started the fight (Rudolph), and tried to get back in it. Willie basically said "If you're gonna start a fight. Better know how to finish it".

And to have Rudolph come to the podium after the game with a smirk on his face as if he did nothing wrong, and say Garrett's actions were cowardly and bush-league, while not considering his own, bothered me. But again. No, not as severe as what Garrett did, but Rudolph better get some sort of suspension IMO. Don't see how it can be avoided if the NFL seriously watches the film.

With the injuries and suspensions, that game in two weeks is gonna be like watching Rutgers vs Northwestern (LOL).

- - - Updated - - -


As for Rudolph I don't see any suspension for him

If you watched the film how can one say he doesn't deserve some sort of suspension?

[GAC]

So after watching the replays, am I the only one who noticed Rudolph trying to yank Garrett’s helmet off before Garrett did it to him?

Uh No. Plus trying to kick him repeatedly in the crotch - and all before the helmet thing.

[GAC]

I knew before clicking on this thread that SteelSD would be here straight away, condoning this horrible deed. :lol:

I don't see where SD was condoning anything on here?

[Redsfaithful]

So after watching the replays, am I the only one who noticed Rudolph trying to yank Garrett’s helmet off before Garrett did it to him?

Yeah, one player is successful so he gets all the heat, but it sure looked like Rudolph was going at his head first.

The rhetoric around this is unbelievable. It's bad, Garrett lost his mind and should be suspended probably the rest of the year, but people are acting like he pulled out a gun and shot Rudolph's mother on the field of play or something. It's absurd.

The Steelers are such a trash organization. Everything that happened in that entire sequence was no surprise to anyone who has to watch that trash team every year, the only surprise was Garrett raising the stakes.

[Bob Sheed]

So after watching the replays, am I the only one who noticed Rudolph trying to yank Garrett’s helmet off before Garrett did it to him?

Shhhh just hard nosed Steelers football there. But the rest of what happened? Inexcusable.

[Boston Red]

Rudolph went for Garrett's helmet. He probably didn't intend to swing it at Garrett's head if he was able to get it off, though.

[Bob Sheed]

I don't see where SD was condoning anything on here?

Sarcasm

[Slyder]

who was the lineman who pulled Garrett off in the first place tried to put some distance but Rudolph went complete 100% Chihuahua and kept yapping? Like I've heard others say... The bigger punishment is Rudolph be forced to start and play every snap the rest of the season.

[phatknuckle]

I like that the Browns are not making excuses for Garrett (at least so far). Baker's after game press conference was spot on. Garrett needs to own up to his actions, apologize sincerely, take his punishment and hopefully suit up as soon as he is allowed.

I agree that Rudolph was pretty much a dick that whole sequence and then afterwards in his press conference. I certainly hope the NFL noticed and responds in some fashion as well.

[Redsfaithful]

Want to point out that Pouncey also showed who he is, kicking a guy in the head who was laying on the ground - AFC North fans already knew.

[Sea Ray]

They didn't see anything on Monday night. ;)

Garrett is going to get a lengthy suspension IMO. No excuse. But Rudolph initiated the fight, was kicking Garrett in the groin while also trying to rip Garrett's helmet off. Garrett rips off Rudolph's helmet, hits him in the head. Then, after Garrett is taken down by Pitt players, Rudolph tries to come in for some cheap shots. Did anyone see Inside The NFL where Willie McGinest condemned Garrett's actions and said he deserves a severe suspension; but injected into the discussion just who actually started the fight (Rudolph), and tried to get back in it. Willie basically said "If you're gonna start a fight. Better know how to finish it".

And to have Rudolph come to the podium after the game with a smirk on his face as if he did nothing wrong, and say Garrett's actions were cowardly and bush-league, while not considering his own, bothered me. But again. No, not as severe as what Garrett did, but Rudolph better get some sort of suspension IMO. Don't see how it can be avoided if the NFL seriously watches the film.

With the injuries and suspensions, that game in two weeks is gonna be like watching Rutgers vs Northwestern (LOL).

- - - Updated - - -



If you watched the film how can one say he doesn't deserve some sort of suspension?

I've watched the film. I see NOTHING that Rudolph did that warrants suspension. Nothing. Any kicking he did was in self defense to get the much stronger man off of him

[Sea Ray]

Yeah, one player is successful so he gets all the heat, but it sure looked like Rudolph was going at his head first.

The rhetoric around this is unbelievable. It's bad, Garrett lost his mind and should be suspended probably the rest of the year, but people are acting like he pulled out a gun and shot Rudolph's mother on the field of play or something. It's absurd.

The Steelers are such a trash organization. Everything that happened in that entire sequence was no surprise to anyone who has to watch that trash team every year, the only surprise was Garrett raising the stakes.

You're saying the criticism of Garrett is absurd? Wow. You're on record...

[GAC]

I've watched the film. I see NOTHING that Rudolph did that warrants suspension. Nothing. Any kicking he did was in self defense to get the much stronger man off of him

Then you're not seeing something that most analysts, pundits, and everyone else has, and made comment on, as they watch the film. Before the helmet incident, footage shows Rudolph kicking Garrett in the groin with his cleats and then trying to rip Garrett's helmet off prior to Garrett doing likewise. Then, when he is separated from the fight, Garret is pinned down, he comes back in to get more cheap shots in.

And you don't see any of that?

Garret was wrong and needs to be severely disciplined. But if Rudolph comes out of this with nothing, then somethings wrong with the NFL.

[GAC]

All I know is that game in two weeks will be filled with practice squad players, and the stadium will be on total lock-down (LOL).

[RedTeamGo!]

Garrett is getting more criticism for this than Roethlisberger raping a woman in a bathroom.

It’s qwhite interesting

[Boston Red]

Garrett is getting more criticism for this than Roethlisberger raping a woman in a bathroom.

It’s qwhite interesting

Did everyone watch Roethlisberger rape a woman on TV?

[Z-Fly]

I've watched the film. I see NOTHING that Rudolph did that warrants suspension. Nothing. Any kicking he did was in self defense to get the much stronger man off of him

That's surprising. He kicked another man in the nards and tried to remove his helmet.

[Sea Ray]

Then you're not seeing something that most analysts, pundits, and everyone else has, and made comment on, as they watch the film. Before the helmet incident, footage shows Rudolph kicking Garrett in the groin with his cleats and then trying to rip Garrett's helmet off prior to Garrett doing likewise. Then, when he is separated from the fight, Garret is pinned down, he comes back in to get more cheap shots in.

And you don't see any of that?

Garret was wrong and needs to be severely disciplined. But if Rudolph comes out of this with nothing, then somethings wrong with the NFL.

I watched an hour worth of coverage of this last night on two different networks and I saw nothing mentioned about this. I saw interviews with both coaches, Rudolph and Garrett. I saw nothing mentioned. I saw three players kicked out and flagged and Rudolph was not one of them. We'll see how Goodell sees it. I'm sure he'll look at everything and if he thinks that Rudolph is guilty, he'll levy some sort of sanction.

- - - Updated - - -


Garrett is getting more criticism for this than Roethlisberger raping a woman in a bathroom.

It’s qwhite interesting

Maybe it's because of the word "allegedly" where Roethlisberger is concerned and this incident is on tv for all of us to see

[Redsfaithful]

I watched an hour worth of coverage of this last night on two different networks and I saw nothing mentioned about this.

I thought at first the announcers were embarrassing themselves, but in fairness they were also in the heat of the moment. Aikman and Buck did eventually mention Rudolph going after Garrett's head/helmet.

Guys like Adam Schefter are looking like complete clowns on social media with this, but I know I'm going to be in the minority here.

- - - Updated - - -


You're saying the criticism of Garrett is absurd? Wow. You're on record...

It absolutely is. I also said he should probably be suspended the rest of the year, but the histrionics are pretty dumb, sorry.

[Kingspoint]

Tough loss losing Morgan Burnett for the season.

[WVRed]

I thought at first the announcers were embarrassing themselves, but in fairness they were also in the heat of the moment. Aikman and Buck did eventually mention Rudolph going after Garrett's head/helmet.

Guys like Adam Schefter are looking like complete clowns on social media with this, but I know I'm going to be in the minority here.

- - - Updated - - -



It absolutely is. I also said he should probably be suspended the rest of the year, but the histrionics are pretty dumb, sorry.

I watched the replay this morning on what I believe had the Browns radio announcers calling it. They said security was working to hold the fans back. This could have been a WHOLE lot worse.

Someone needs to tell Mason Rudolph to sit down and shut up though. Saying everything is on the table by threatening a lawsuit when there is video showing his actions isn’t exactly the smartest thing to do.

The NFL needs to do a better job of scheduling as well, at least making sure heated rivalry games are played pretty far apart. Playing this game last night and then playing again in Pittsburgh in two weeks when tensions are still going to be high? Obviously nobody knew this was going to happen but games like this don’t need to be that close together.

[Kingspoint]

Did everyone watch Roethlisberger rape a woman on TV?

The Tampa police made sure all the evidence was destroyed.

[Bob Sheed]

Want to point out that Pouncey also showed who he is, kicking a guy in the head who was laying on the ground - AFC North fans already knew.

Nah, that's just lunchpail pull yourself up by your own bootstraps blue collar hard nosed Steelers football right there. Until those animals from the Browns started it all.

[Redsfaithful]

Mason Rudolph is pathetic, now threatening to go to the police. Might be the softest player in the NFL!

[goreds2]

He deserves a lengthy suspension, definitely rest of season, perhaps a 16 game suspension. Not a lifetime ban, as far as I know he doesn't have a prior rap sheet.

Week 1 - Myles punched an opposing player
​

Week 2 - He had a late hit on the Jets QB resulting in a season ending injury

[Slyder]

Mason Rudolph is pathetic, now threatening to go to the police. Might be the softest player in the NFL!

Considering he put himself in the position to be in range of that helmet.... DeCastro needs a pay raise he had it under control until the Chihuahua stuck his nose back in it.

[Griffey012]

Week 1 - Myles punched an opposing player
​

Week 2 - He had a late hit on the Jets QB resulting in a season ending injury

Thanks, I was unaware of those. Not a good look for Myles at all.

[RedTeamGo!]

Mason Rudolph is pathetic, now threatening to go to the police. Might be the softest player in the NFL!

lol what a dork.

The steelers are so ridiculously lame. You know damn well Rudolph started this whole thing. Garrett made the mistake of ending it.

[Boston Red]

Indefinite

[Chip R]

I've watched the film. I see NOTHING that Rudolph did that warrants suspension. Nothing. Any kicking he did was in self defense to get the much stronger man off of him

I'm not a fan of either team and I'm not a fan of the Bengals so I don't have a horse in this race. However, this is what it looked like to me. The Browns players wouldn't get off Rudolph and ala Johnny Cueto he tried to kick and pull his way out of there. Maybe he did hit in the area of Garret's groin and that's what set him off. Now who knows if Rudolph said anything to Garrett or anyone else but no one is saying that he did.

[Redsfaithful]

Now who knows if Rudolph said anything to Garrett or anyone else but no one is saying that he did.

He for sure did, there's a gif going around where you can read his lips pretty clearly.

[Todd Gack]

I'm not a fan of either team and I'm not a fan of the Bengals so I don't have a horse in this race. However, this is what it looked like to me. The Browns players wouldn't get off Rudolph and ala Johnny Cueto he tried to kick and pull his way out of there. Maybe he did hit in the area of Garret's groin and that's what set him off. Now who knows if Rudolph said anything to Garrett or anyone else but no one is saying that he did.


Uhhh, The Steelers OL were pushing Garrett away and Rudolph went after Garrett before Garrett went psycho. He even tried to take Garrett's helmet off as well! The dude deserve something. He's not completely innocent.

- - - Updated - - -


He for sure did, there's a gif going around where you can read his lips pretty clearly.

Where's this at?

[Griffey012]

Where's this at?

Yeah, I am going to need to see this for myself.

[GAC]

He for sure did, there's a gif going around where you can read his lips pretty clearly.

Yep. Seen it, and there's no ambiguity as to what he was saying.

While I can show others. Here is one still shot from the beginning of the fight. And if one watches the video, Rudolph then proceeds from there to try an get his hand under the back of Garrett's helmet to rip it off.

https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/74475678_10215080610795699_7956486044654764032_n.j pg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_eui2=AeHSMZAybzqZ-6Qt1S-dakNsU4CY9x6vklVIVcrbhRdkHmdRFGcXTP7QWIbsBWMwsH8Jz szHnOKwQtO_u4YnpUEq5ytTaxW2Sau7hpiIuxUQvg&_nc_oc=AQkDdE1r8Xr8hcF-gZFHgg050VEB6dq6HO19-_97PnrD4VnXnP00XDBzN15padeAPYLkC_MomqeCo8riYhotAFy t&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-2.xx&oh=21e4c94f9a81d0d65057492ae8ffb7eb&oe=5E4F992D

[GAC]

Yeah, I am going to need to see this for myself.

I've seen it. But I'm not going to post it because it has the word posted over it.

[GAC]

I watched an hour worth of coverage of this last night on two different networks and I saw nothing mentioned about this.

It wasn't CNN and MSNBC was it? LOL ... because I was watching several different shows, including Inside The NFL. FoxSports, and others, discussing it among panels, guests, etc... and everyone of them condemned Garrett but showed the footage and acknowledged that Rudolph started it - which does not in any way justify Garrett's actions - but that he should also get some sort of suspension.

[GAC]

And while it may not resonant as much (stick with) with non-Brown fans... Brown fans don't forget stuff like this...

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/video/2014/09/07/0ap3000000390434_video_cp.jpg

Got a 15 yd penalty, and the NFL fined him $8,200. That's all. Brown said it was inadvertent and that he talked with punter Lanning after the game. Lanning said it never happened.

I don't post this to justify in any way what Garrett did.... but from a fan's perspective our level of sympathy only goes so far. Or as Doc wouod say ...

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT5oWwW3JHSKcNlTeaeAiuFEiJP-YJwaggl-mBvKK7Kcw8ZHCUp&s

[GAC]

Week 1 - Myles punched an opposing player
​

Week 2 - He had a late hit on the Jets QB resulting in a season ending injury

Yep

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28087446/browns-myles-garrett-suspended-indefinitely-steelers-maurkice-pouncey-gets-3-game-ban


Garrett had already been fined more than $50,000 this season, for punching Tennessee Titans tight end Delanie Walker and for a pair of late hits on New York Jets quarterback Trevor Siemian, the second of which knocked Siemian out for the season with an ankle injury.

Rudolph anticipates a fine (which I find ridiculous, but expected because he's a defenseless QB), while Pouncy got a three game suspension, and the Brown's Ogunjobi got a one game suspension.

They haven't said anything about Randall's helmet to helmet hit that got him ejected. I guess they've been busy.

[North]

- - - Updated - - -


I watched the replay this morning on what I believe had the Browns radio announcers calling it. They said security was working to hold the fans back. This could have been a WHOLE lot worse.

Someone needs to tell Mason Rudolph to sit down and shut up though. Saying everything is on the table by threatening a lawsuit when there is video showing his actions isn’t exactly the smartest thing to do.

The NFL needs to do a better job of scheduling as well, at least making sure heated rivalry games are played pretty far apart. Playing this game last night and then playing again in Pittsburgh in two weeks when tensions are still going to be high? Obviously nobody knew this was going to happen but games like this don’t need to be that close together.

Right on regarding Rudolph.

The schedule is the way it is because of the Indianapolis Colts with Manning. They would wrap up their division, and play the last two or three or four games with nothing but scrubs because they didn't want anyone to get injured.

[Redsfaithful]

Here's a gif of Rudolph pretty violently going after Garrett's head: https://twitter.com/NFLHumor/status/1195204290622763008

And kicking him between the legs: https://twitter.com/YankUpDre/status/1195221282591297536

Rudolph sucks, so it's not like I care if he gets suspended, and I have no interest here (obviously not a fan of either team) but lol come on, sometimes you start a fight and it ends up not going the way you wanted.

I also think, everyone have whatever opinion you want, but if you're basing this all off a 5 second gif you see of Garrett swinging a helmet, you missed it.

This is also a 100% correct take from Cameron Jordan:

https://twitter.com/camjordan94/status/1195338935649656832


This narrative a lil far fetched... how bout qb starts brawl, tried to rip off DE’s helmet, whom then gets jumped by OL and swings erratically?

The suspension for Garrett is too much, if they manage to make the playoffs it'll be a joke for him to miss them.

[oregonred]

I also think, everyone have whatever opinion you want, but if you're basing this all off a 5 second gif you see of Garrett swinging a helmet, you missed it.

https://twitter.com/camjordan94/status/1195338935649656832

How about a wall size, still portrait of said incident behind the ESPN crew on NFL Live. Good backdrop so they could all wax poetic about what happened

[Boston Red]

sometimes you start a fight and it ends up not going the way you wanted.

I don't know. To me this is the equivalent of a pitcher throwing at a guy and the batter bringing his bat out and swinging it at the pitcher. If the batter runs out there and punches the pitcher in the face, fine. Standard suspension and fine. If he hits the pitcher with the bat, that's going to get you suspended maybe forever. Same thing here. Swinging a helmet at someone's unprotected head is just different than the types of things we've come to expect/generally accept.

[jimbo]

Here's a gif of Rudolph pretty violently going after Garrett's head: https://twitter.com/NFLHumor/status/1195204290622763008

He not only was trying to rip Garrett's helmet off, he was trying to twist his head in the process, and after realizing he had failed, tried to kick him the nuts. Garrett even looked finished after he got Rudolph's helmet, but reacted with the swing once Rudolph went after him.

There's very little disagreement, even amongst Browns fans, that Garrett deserves what he's getting. He took the bait and reacted, but Rudolph isn't an innocent victim in this by any means. I mean, this kind of instigation is what we've all come to expect from Pittsburgh teams these days.

15415

[oregonred]

Garretts vs. Pittsburgh

The Reds Amir was a legend. The William Wallace of our time

The Browns Myles not so much

[Sea Ray]

Just guessing here but since that's what we do here, my guess is that Garrett will get suspended "indefinitely" and he'll have to apply for reinstatement in the off season. As for Rudolph I don't see any suspension for him. The interesting one is Pouncey. What will he get for defending his QB?

Damn I'm good

- - - Updated - - -


I'm not a fan of either team and I'm not a fan of the Bengals so I don't have a horse in this race. However, this is what it looked like to me. The Browns players wouldn't get off Rudolph and ala Johnny Cueto he tried to kick and pull his way out of there. Maybe he did hit in the area of Garret's groin and that's what set him off. Now who knows if Rudolph said anything to Garrett or anyone else but no one is saying that he did.

That's the way I saw it and it looks like the league saw it that way too, hence only a fine for Rudolph

[Sea Ray]

Here's a gif of Rudolph pretty violently going after Garrett's head: https://twitter.com/NFLHumor/status/1195204290622763008

And kicking him between the legs: https://twitter.com/YankUpDre/status/1195221282591297536

Rudolph sucks, so it's not like I care if he gets suspended, and I have no interest here (obviously not a fan of either team) but lol come on, sometimes you start a fight and it ends up not going the way you wanted.

I also think, everyone have whatever opinion you want, but if you're basing this all off a 5 second gif you see of Garrett swinging a helmet, you missed it.

This is also a 100% correct take from Cameron Jordan:

https://twitter.com/camjordan94/status/1195338935649656832



The suspension for Garrett is too much, if they manage to make the playoffs it'll be a joke for him to miss them.

All he's doing there is getting the much larger man off of him. No big deal. Given the way the NFL ruled, they found it to be no big deal either

[Redsfaithful]

Given the way the NFL ruled, they found it to be no big deal either

He wasn't disciplined?

[Bob Sheed]

That's the way I saw it and it looks like the league saw it that way too, hence only a fine for Rudolph

"Open and shut case here, Johnson."

[GAC]

Damn I'm good

You weren't the only one saying he'd get an indefinite suspension.... and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to stake out that position on what is seen as one of the most horrific acts by a player towards another player on the football field. Quit trying to toot your own horn (LOL).



All he's doing there is getting the much larger man off of him. No big deal. Given the way the NFL ruled, they found it to be no big deal either

And you're the only one in this discussion who has staked out this position on Rudolph's involvement (instigating) this fight, even after seeing the video where it's so obvious. Amazing. Stevie Wonder will see it before you. For several pages you've been on here defending Rudolph and saying you SAW NOTHING. You even described Pouncey's repeatedly kicking a Brown's player in the head as "defending his QB" (LOL). And to describe a player grabbing and twisting another players helmet (head) and trying to rip his helmet off, and them kicking him in the groin as simply "getting a much larger man off of him" is laughable. First off... Garrett isn't a much larger man then Rudolph. Rudolph is 6'5", Garrett 6"4". Garret has him by about 30 lbs. LOL

The fact that Goodell is only fining Rudolph means very little to me (and most) because, well, it's Goodell. It doesn't mean that the NFL SAW NOTHING, as far as Rudolph's involvement/instigation, but only that once again they show their unevenness in his decision-making. A fine, IMO, is not enough for the level of his involvement in this fracas. And if that's all that occurs then Brown fans have every right to be upset IMO. Maybe he thinks it's too harsh on the Steelers to lose their starting QB for a game or two? Or maybe continuing to let him start is punishment enough? LOL

The day you come into a Brown's discussion and say anything positive, or in agreement with, anyone is the day I'll fall out of my chair! You purposely seem to stake out an opposite and divisive position on here. 100% track record. And I'm not going to continue to argue with you over it, because that is what you want.

[GAC]

The suspension for Garrett is too much, if they manage to make the playoffs it'll be a joke for him to miss them.

IMO, he shouldn't be allowed to play the remainder of the season. This gives the NFL far more time to investigate this situation more thoroughly. Plus, what he did was totally inexcusable, and a firm message needs to be sent out this will not be tolerated, regardless of what may have motivated you.

But here is what bothers me RF. I'm listening to all these sports analysts and pundits asking what made Garrett snap and act so emotionally and violently towards Rudolph? Is he deranged, got mental issues? You talk to people who know him, and off the field he is a mild-mannered, quite guy. You don't hear of any off-field antics from him. Keeps to himself pretty much.

When Garrett had Rudolph's helmet in his hand he stopped, and then was walking away like it was over. And it was over. But now, IMO, we're reaching the "turning point". What caused Garrett to turn and re-engage with Rudolph and react so violently when the situation was over? At least by Garrett's actions. Garrett didn't just all of a sudden decide "What the hell!" and hit Rudolph with the helmet. Rudolph can be seen screaming at Garrett, and most believe that was when he was yelling the racial slur(s) at him.

This needs to be investigated further IMO, and issuing an indefinite suspension gives (buys) them the time to do so. That's if the NFL really wants to get to the bottom of it and know the whole truth. It's not an attempt to justify Garrett's actions, but UNDERSTAND just what caused him to snap? Of course if true, IMO, the NFL will try to suppress that (unless ESPN gets the story) because that would possible create a headline of racism in the NFL, and Rudolph is another John Rocker. But if true, then word gets out. And if I was a black player I'd have no respect whatsoever for Rudolph, and call it like it is. I've already seen some saying "white privilege" because of the way they have handled Rudolph.

[Sea Ray]

You weren't the only one saying he'd get an indefinite suspension.... and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to stake out that position on what is seen as one of the most horrific acts by a player towards another player on the football field. Quit trying to toot your own horn (LOL).




And you're the only one in this discussion who has staked out this position on Rudolph's involvement (instigating) this fight, even after seeing the video where it's so obvious. Amazing. Stevie Wonder will see it before you. For several pages you've been on here defending Rudolph and saying you SAW NOTHING. You even described Pouncey's repeatedly kicking a Brown's player in the head as "defending his QB" (LOL). And to describe a player grabbing and twisting another players helmet (head) and trying to rip his helmet off, and them kicking him in the groin as simply "getting a much larger man off of him" is laughable. First off... Garrett isn't a much larger man then Rudolph. Rudolph is 6'5", Garrett 6"4". Garret has him by about 30 lbs. LOL

The fact that Goodell is only fining Rudolph means very little to me (and most) because, well, it's Goodell. It doesn't mean that the NFL SAW NOTHING, as far as Rudolph's involvement/instigation, but only that once again they show their unevenness in his decision-making. A fine, IMO, is not enough for the level of his involvement in this fracas. And if that's all that occurs then Brown fans have every right to be upset IMO. Maybe he thinks it's too harsh on the Steelers to lose their starting QB for a game or two? Or maybe continuing to let him start is punishment enough? LOL

The day you come into a Brown's discussion and say anything positive, or in agreement with, anyone is the day I'll fall out of my chair! You purposely seem to stake out an opposite and divisive position on here. 100% track record. And I'm not going to continue to argue with you over it, because that is what you want.

Who else here on RZ predicted an indefinite suspension? Just askin'

As for Rudolph, we both saw the same thing. We only differ as to his motivation. Yes, he was kicking and all and in my opinion the reason was in order to get the opposing player off of him. I considered that "nothing". I don't see why you're so wound up about all this with me. My position was echoed by another RZer and he compared it to Johnny Cueto. Yet you light into me. I'm really getting tired of you making every post I make personal but I refuse to go there, OK? I'm going to continue to keep my thoughts to football. My position is not that far fetched. Nor was I the only one here who had that opinion. Whatever.

[Sea Ray]

He wasn't disciplined?

He was disciplined. He got a fine. Did you miss that? I consider it a "no big deal" discipline. If you disagree, please let us know and why.

[Sea Ray]

Since I wasn't there I can't say for sure but I'd be VERY very surprised if Rudolph used a racial slur. Why? Because in this league he's surrounded by black players. On every snap he gets the ball from a black player. His coach is black. There were other black players in the vicinity when this occurred. This possibility seems highly unlikely

[Redsfaithful]

He was disciplined. He got a fine. Did you miss that? I consider it a "no big deal" discipline. If you disagree, please let us know and why.

No, I'd heard he was but your post made it sound like he got nothing. A fine means they consider him also in the wrong, just less so, which makes sense to me.

I'm a parent, I tend to think the instigator should get a little extra for starting it, but the NFL's discipline philosophy is haphazard.

[Sea Ray]

No, I'd heard he was but your post made it sound like he got nothing. A fine means they consider him also in the wrong, just less so, which makes sense to me.

I'm a parent, I tend to think the instigator should get a little extra for starting it, but the NFL's discipline philosophy is haphazard.

I still don't know if you think this fine is a big deal. If the answer's no then we're in agreement

[Redsfaithful]

IMO, he shouldn't be allowed to play the remainder of the season. This gives the NFL far more time to investigate this situation more thoroughly. Plus, what he did was totally inexcusable, and a firm message needs to be sent out this will not be tolerated, regardless of what may have motivated you.

But here is what bothers me RF. I'm listening to all these sports analysts and pundits asking what made Garrett snap and act so emotionally and violently towards Rudolph? Is he deranged, got mental issues? You talk to people who know him, and off the field he is a mild-mannered, quite guy. You don't hear of any off-field antics from him. Keeps to himself pretty much.

I know a fan sucker punched him in the face and he walked away, so that says something right there.

I don't view these things in a vacuum. Like Bob Sheed, the Steelers have a long, long history, they are taught to be dirty and to get under the skin of other teams as much as possible. Announcers and analysts act like each event is completely new and there's no history, and that's a mistake. It starts with the ownership and with Tomlin - they're why they find themselves in these situations over and over.

The Browns have had issues with the Steelers for years. The Ravens have had issues with the Steelers for years. The Bengals have had issues with the Steelers for years. There's a common thread there.

[GAC]

I don't see why you're so wound up about all this with me. My position was echoed by another RZer and he compared it to Johnny Cueto. Yet you light into me. I'm really getting tired of you making every post I make personal

Why is it that every time some one disagrees with you (not just me), you see it as making it personal? I'm no longer going to carry this particular discussion any farther with you, because it can't be taken any farther, is unproductive, and what's to be attained? You've expressed your opinion. And you've added nothing to it. Expanded on it no further where it warrants further discussion, and you're simply repeating the same thing over and over and over. We all understand what your position is (LOL).

[Sea Ray]

Here are examples of how your post "makes it personal":

*Quit trying to toot your own horn

*Stevie Wonder will see it before you

*The day you come into a Brown's discussion and say anything positive, or in agreement with, anyone is the day I'll fall out of my chair! You purposely seem to stake out an opposite and divisive position on here. 100% track record. And I'm not going to continue to argue with you over it, because that is what you want.


*(LOL)

*LOL

*LOL


And those examples are just from one post of yours. Just one! Those comments from you are snarky, personal towards me, sophomoric and have nothing to do with football. Notice that my posts to which you were responding, had 0% personal stuff towards you. Zero! It was 100% about the game. You have issues, I've documented them here and I'm going to leave it at that. I will continue to give my opinion here and I'll not let your comments directed at me, intimidate me from doing so. Nor will I respond in kind. I would hope you'd refrain from such behavior in the future but if you won't or can't, I get it.

[WVRed]

No, I'd heard he was but your post made it sound like he got nothing. A fine means they consider him also in the wrong, just less so, which makes sense to me.

I'm a parent, I tend to think the instigator should get a little extra for starting it, but the NFL's discipline philosophy is haphazard.

Parenting analogy:

The Steelers are the bully who antagonizes and provokes their victim into reacting, knowing they will get in trouble. When the parent, teacher, adult etc see what’s going on, they just see the reaction, not realizing what happened before that to set it off.

Of course with cameras all over the field, we get to see what really happened. Of course the comparison I have seen being made is what Garrett did was the equivalent of bringing out a baseball bat or a gun after being bullied.

Colin Cowherd made an interesting analogy with the Browns (if Kingspoint is reading this I’d love to get his take). The Browns are the modern day Jailblazers and John Dorsey is a modern day Bob Whitsett. Assembles a team completely ignoring character and how the team works together and gives it to the coach and says “Here, make this work”

[Sea Ray]

Here's a good article that reasonably explains the whole situation and ruling from the NFL:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/troy-vincent-explains-suspensions-from-myles-garrett-helmet-fight-says-another-wave-of-fines-coming/

This notion given by some who portray Garrett as a clean player before this incident is false and explained here:


Garrett, who has repeatedly drawn penalties and fines this season after being thought of as a clean player in his first two seasons, was always going to receive the steepest discipline.

Like Burfict, his past was a factor in his discipline from the NFL.

Vincent acknowledges what a few have mentioned here that Rudolph kicked and grabbed at Garrett's helmet but that action was very minor compared to what Garrett did:


He got into an altercation with Rudolph that extended beyond the play, with the quarterback grabbing his facemask and tugging on it and also striking at Garett's midsection. But Garrett took things to another level when he yanked off Rudolph's helmet, brandished it wildly and then whacked the quarterback in the head with it, striking him directly in the head in a viscous manner.

He went on to explain that Rudolph's actions qualified for a fine but not a suspension:


Rudolph clearly went at Garrett after being driven hard to the ground on the preceding play, grabbing the facemask and kicking out at him. Vincent and his staff did not deem the actions worthy of a suspension but they will continue to pour over the video next week to determine the extent of the fines, and it sounds like more than one could be coming.

"The grabbing of the facemask, that is a fine," Vincent said.

So it appears to me that the NFL has done their due diligence. They've studied the tape and they didn't miss anything. I think they've handled this well. The fact that Rudolph was kicking and shoving is a small subplot to the big story of what Garrett did. And one more thing...There's nothing I like about the Steelers. I dislike both teams equally. I got no dog in this hunt.

Not even a whisper of a racial slur...None

[GAC]

While Garrett is trying to get up

https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/76613114_10220369778417261_9147462368253444096_n.j pg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_oc=AQlCN5Rb1svXxEeU4wsrhw0bQ-yF2HjzAaf2MXwn24WbnJz7RR_1LGqdiXhlAtwGwC5vY9MYVPHR h9SHk_ZtGTkP&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-2.xx&oh=f728a3ea332112fa2c8eddd4b06515ce&oe=5E426D8A

[WrongVerb]

Why is it that every time some one disagrees with you (not just me), you see it as making it personal?

Human psychology, to which we are all vulnerable. When someone internalizes an idea (whether it's good or bad, or based in fact or conjecture doesn't matter), that idea becomes part of their self-identity. So when that idea is challenged, that challenge works on the brain in the same way a physical challenge would. So they feel like they're being attacked personally, even when the "attacker" is doing nothing more than presenting an alternative idea.

[Sea Ray]

While Garrett is trying to get up



No one's disputing that, including the NFL. They mentioned this in explaining why Rudolph was fined. Is there anything further to add?

Do you have a picture of this racial slur you keep bringing up?

[GAC]

Human psychology, to which we are all vulnerable. When someone internalizes an idea (whether it's good or bad, or based in fact or conjecture doesn't matter), that idea becomes part of their self-identity. So when that idea is challenged, that challenge works on the brain in the same way a physical challenge would. So they feel like they're being attacked personally, even when the "attacker" is doing nothing more than presenting an alternative idea.

Certainly agree with your analysis Doc. We all have that "defense" mechanism. Presenting an alternate idea or opinion is not really the issue here. Present it. But don't present a position/opinion for discussion, and when others show cracks/faults in your position, you "dig in", get defensive, and accuse others of attacking you. And then beat it to death. But I'm not gonna beat around the bush on this one. He has a 100% track record for the last several years of being nothing but divisive, and one huge pain in the *** on the Brown's discussion thread. And I think he likes doing it. On here, and most any other discussions he gets involved in. Fine with me. But I don't have to read it. Especially on this thread. And for my best interest (LOL), and for the first time, I'm using the Ignore feature. I'm too old to get in a bickering match with a master bickerer (LOL).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-M08b8EY_0s

[cumberlandreds]

Human psychology, to which we are all vulnerable. When someone internalizes an idea (whether it's good or bad, or based in fact or conjecture doesn't matter), that idea becomes part of their self-identity. So when that idea is challenged, that challenge works on the brain in the same way a physical challenge would. So they feel like they're being attacked personally, even when the "attacker" is doing nothing more than presenting an alternative idea.

Or they are just trolls. :)

[Sea Ray]

Certainly agree with your analysis Doc. We all have that "defense" mechanism. Presenting an alternate idea or opinion is not really the issue here. Present it. But don't present a position/opinion for discussion, and when others show cracks/faults in your position, you "dig in", get defensive, and accuse others of attacking you. And then beat it to death. But I'm not gonna beat around the bush on this one. He has a 100% track record for the last several years of being nothing but divisive, and one huge pain in the *** on the Brown's discussion thread. And I think he likes doing it. On here, and most any other discussions he gets involved in. Fine with me. But I don't have to read it. Especially on this thread. And for my best interest (LOL), and for the first time, I'm using the Ignore feature. I'm too old to get in a bickering match with a master bickerer (LOL).



Actually "he" has a record of giving quite realistic views of the Browns in recent yrs. Unfortunately realistic is negative given the recent past. It's realistic that Manziel, Kizer and others were worthless pursuits at QB. It's realistic that Hue was a historically bad coach and what happened last Thursday night was also historically bad. What Rudolph did was not historically bad. that sort of thing happens every Sunday. The news from that game was what Myles Garrett did. That's what made it front page news. My comments were limited to that yet you couldn't handle 'em so you responded defensively as I documented very thoroughly. Let the record show I used no such phrases as comparing your eyesight to Stevie Wonder or resorted to sophomoric posting tactics of numerous LOLs or memes. I limited my comments to the field of play. Your post above had nothing to do with football. My post here has nothing to do with football either because it's a response to yours towards me. I welcome getting back to discussing football sans the Stevie Wonder jabs. Do you think you can do that? Please understand this is not a thread limited to Browns fans. Some sites are limited in that way. This is not one of them. Keep that in mind before you lash back next time.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Browns schedule the rest of the way:

Dolphins
@Steelers
Bengals
@Cardinals
Ravens
@Bengals

I think 9-7 gets the last playoff spot. The Bills have a schedule they can go 3-3 against to get to 10-6. I don’t think the Raiders are very good and the AFC south is going to beat up on each other so it’s hard to see more than two teams getting past 9 wins there. It’ll be tough without Garrett since he’s such a difference maker, but it’s doable. Will be interesting to see how they respond to all the noise.

[GAC]

The NFL has yet to issue a ruling on Safety Damarious Randall's vicious helmet-to-helmet hit on Steeler's WR Johnson. I saw the play. There was absolutely no sense in what he did. The play was over too. As soon as he did it I said "You're Gone!". And then to be smiling as you walk away. Johnson was seen bleeding from the ear, and is still in the concussion protocol.

Randall needs to be nailed too IMO. I don't want my team's players playing like this. This was a defenseless receiver.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXju30R0UJE

[GAC]

Browns schedule the rest of the way:

Dolphins
@Steelers
Bengals
@Cardinals
Ravens
@Bengals

I think 9-7 gets the last playoff spot. The Bills have a schedule they can go 3-3 against to get to 10-6. I don’t think the Raiders are very good and the AFC south is going to beat up on each other so it’s hard to see more than two teams getting past 9 wins there. It’ll be tough without Garrett since he’s such a difference maker, but it’s doable. Will be interesting to see how they respond to all the noise.

Love your optimism (LOL). It's possible. It's funny. The Brown's best win this season, where they were really clicking, was the win over the Ravens. Can they repeat that? Losing Garrett will really hurt in this game vs Jackson. That game vs Pitt in two weeks will be watched by everyone (with both teams signing players from their practice squads LOL).

The Brown's abysmal, slow start, a new HC/QB trying to put things together, will probably sink them. I just want to see growth and direction by season's end. Going to be interesting to see what some of the decisions are by Dorsey after the season. Your O-line play has been erratic, your talented secondary (safeties) seem to have the injury bug, missing games, and your run defense sucks! He's got his work to do.

[North]

Get yer ringside seats, boys! :duel:

Browns vs. Steelers rematch flexed to 1 p.m. on Dec. 1
Updated Nov 18, 2019;Posted Nov 18, 2019 Dan Labbe cleveland.com

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/11/browns-vs-steelers-rematch-flexed-to-1-pm.html

We shall see if the refs clamp down on 'em.

BTW, if you would like to watch a good melee - 27 minute's worth over 2 periods - here is the Good Friday Massacre 1984 playoff game between the Quebec Nordiques and the Montreal Canadiens:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aaj-H23RziI

[Sea Ray]

Get yer ringside seats, boys! :duel:

Browns vs. Steelers rematch flexed to 1 p.m. on Dec. 1
Updated Nov 18, 2019;Posted Nov 18, 2019 Dan Labbe cleveland.com

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/11/browns-vs-steelers-rematch-flexed-to-1-pm.html

We shall see if the refs clamp down on 'em.

BTW, if you would like to watch a good melee - 27 minute's worth over 2 periods - here is the Good Friday Massacre 1984 playoff game between the Quebec Nordiques and the Montreal Canadiens:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aaj-H23RziI

It was flexed to 1pm? When was it originally scheduled to start?

[BuckeyeRed27]

Love your optimism (LOL). It's possible. It's funny. The Brown's best win this season, where they were really clicking, was the win over the Ravens. Can they repeat that? Losing Garrett will really hurt in this game vs Jackson. That game vs Pitt in two weeks will be watched by everyone (with both teams signing players from their practice squads LOL).

The Brown's abysmal, slow start, a new HC/QB trying to put things together, will probably sink them. I just want to see growth and direction by season's end. Going to be interesting to see what some of the decisions are by Dorsey after the season. Your O-line play has been erratic, your talented secondary (safeties) seem to have the injury bug, missing games, and your run defense sucks! He's got his work to do.

Yeah there’s obviously a ton to work on, but this is a moment in the season where they can either fold or use it to rally. Given the coaching and leadership I would guess fold, but we shall see. They still have it all to play for given how mediocre most of the AFC has been this year.

- - - Updated - - -


It was flexed to 1pm? When was it originally scheduled to start?

It was flexed from 1pm to 430pm. He has a typo.

[Sea Ray]

It was flexed from 1pm to 430pm. He has a typo.

OK, that makes more sense

[mole44]

OK, that makes more sense

No, its definitely a 1 pm start now. It was scheduled for 4:25 but the NFL wanted Chiefs/Raiders in that spot instead.

[North]

Yeah there’s obviously a ton to work on, but this is a moment in the season where they can either fold or use it to rally. Given the coaching and leadership I would guess fold, but we shall see. They still have it all to play for given how mediocre most of the AFC has been this year.

- - - Updated - - -



It was flexed from 1pm to 430pm. He has a typo.

Nope.

[BuckeyeRed27]

No, its definitely a 1 pm start now. It was scheduled for 4:25 but the NFL wanted Chiefs/Raiders in that spot instead.

My bad. I saw the flex news and assumed they were putting it into the better spot given all the coverage from this past game.