2019 Cleveland Browns...We're back !!

[GAC]

Interesting .... http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001007403/article/browns-block-interview-requests-for-freddie-kitchens?fbclid=IwAR1hDiSTP94NbRfvJEPjrvnVPgc23xa9 uIoezhdFC6U1kmpK4pldBOR3W5Y

I didn't know the Browns were interviewing Kitchens for the vacant HC job.

[Chip R]

Interesting .... http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001007403/article/browns-block-interview-requests-for-freddie-kitchens?fbclid=IwAR1hDiSTP94NbRfvJEPjrvnVPgc23xa9 uIoezhdFC6U1kmpK4pldBOR3W5Y

I didn't know the Browns were interviewing Kitchens for the vacant HC job.

They bloody well should.

[GAC]

They bloody well should.

Oh yeah. But I want this guy running the offense. And while there are some head coaches who do take on the dual responsibility of head coach/coordinator (Shanahan, McVay), you're really spreading yourself thin and asking a lot of yourself. Would Kitchens hire an offensive coordinator? Or could it end up being like with the Saints - Payton is the head coach and Carmichael the offensive coordinator. But on game day the offense is Payton's baby, he calls the plays.

It's going to be interesting to see not only who Dorsey will pick, but how fast he will act, because of the slew of firings and teams hunting for head coaches (LOL).

[GAC]

Pretty good assessment of the Brown's off-season needs .... https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2019/01/02/4-biggest-positions-of-need-for-the-browns-this-offseason/?fbclid=IwAR1byqSF3C_z9p3Th1cRxYwoOBi-9pJ_4YsdlWulTiiNsgpCeXIWHE5D1AM

They definitely, IMO, need an interior lineman on defense to complement/augment players like Ogunjobi and Garrett. And this year's draft class, as far as DT's go, is pretty loaded with talent.... https://www.drafttek.com/2019-NFL-Draft-Prospect-Rankings/Top-College-Defensive-Tackles-2019-Draft.asp

They also list WR as a need... A slot receiver who can get open quickly and reliably on slants, ins/out and smoke routes would be a big addition to diversify the offense. I agree, but always felt Duke Johnson's versatility could fill that role. Higgins and Perriman are both pending free agents, but Higgins is a restricted FA. I really like Perriman and hope they can keep him.

And the obvious .... Kicker (LOL).

[Bob Sheed]

Josh McDaniels "enthusiastically interested" in Browns HC position...

[Chip R]

Oh yeah. But I want this guy running the offense. And while there are some head coaches who do take on the dual responsibility of head coach/coordinator (Shanahan, McVay), you're really spreading yourself thin and asking a lot of yourself. Would Kitchens hire an offensive coordinator? Or could it end up being like with the Saints - Payton is the head coach and Carmichael the offensive coordinator. But on game day the offense is Payton's baby, he calls the plays.

It's going to be interesting to see not only who Dorsey will pick, but how fast he will act, because of the slew of firings and teams hunting for head coaches (LOL).

Well, he might bolt if he's not picked for the head gig in CLE. It appears that they have something special going on there but if any team can mess up a good thing it's the Browns. If they pick another guy he may want to bring in his own OC. Maybe Baker doesn't react well to the new coaches. NFL history is full of teams who appear that they have made the jump and then all of a sudden, they are back to Square One. Look no further than the Bengals.

[GAC]

Josh McDaniels "enthusiastically interested" in Browns HC position...

Don't want no part of him (which means he'll probably get it) LOL

[GAC]

Well, he might bolt if he's not picked for the head gig in CLE. It appears that they have something special going on there but if any team can mess up a good thing it's the Browns. If they pick another guy he may want to bring in his own OC. Maybe Baker doesn't react well to the new coaches. NFL history is full of teams who appear that they have made the jump and then all of a sudden, they are back to Square One. Look no further than the Bengals.

You're a real ....

http://images.dailykos.com/images/181584/story_image/medium_schleprock.jpg?1448741217

LOL

All I'm gonna say is "In Dorsey We Trust". What have we got to lose? Everything you state (above) is possible. It all comes down to how bad Dorsey wants to keep Kitchens. I'm sure what you mention is a part of Dorsey's process.

[Assembly Hall]

Josh McDaniels "enthusiastically interested" in Browns HC position...

I think the only team that likes him in the league is the Patriots. If he does land the Browns gig, cross me off the list for rooting for Cleveland.

[puca]

Josh McDaniels "enthusiastically interested" in Browns HC position...

I don't want him with the Browns either, but I think it shows the desirability of the Browns job relative to others.

[puca]

Well, he might bolt if he's not picked for the head gig in CLE. It appears that they have something special going on there but if any team can mess up a good thing it's the Browns. If they pick another guy he may want to bring in his own OC. Maybe Baker doesn't react well to the new coaches. NFL history is full of teams who appear that they have made the jump and then all of a sudden, they are back to Square One. Look no further than the Bengals.

This is the Dorsey version of the Browns, so far it has not resembled the previous regimes.

I'm not sure I'd want Kitchens as the next head coach of the Browns because he seems a bit to friendly with Mayfield for that role. If Kitchen is content on staying as OC, I'm sure any head coaching hire will be made under that condition. If he's not, I'm sure Dorsey will keep Mayfield's personality and strengths in mind with any new OC hire that is made.

I have faith that no matter happens the Browns will be fine (I can't believe I typed that).

[Kingspoint]

If I was Cleveland, I would have granted Arians' wish to unite in Cleveland. Arians' floor is he's a good Head Coach. With talent and a commitment to winning, something he didn't have in Arizona, he could be a great Head Coach. Looks like he's the leading candidate to take over Tampa Bay, a revolving door for Head Coaches.

[Kingspoint]

puca, the Head Coach is still going to establish the Attitude of the Club, along with the G.M., so it is important who they hire. What more evidence is needed than what we witnessed in Cleveland this season. That wasn't a dead-cat bounce. That was a change in Attitude throughout the organization. More proof is Marvin Lewis' 16 years in Cincinnati. A lot of people try to give credit to Marvin when he first got here, but it was Carson Palmer, T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Rudi Johnson, our Offensive Line and Chad Johnson. Marvin was just along for the ride. Then the addition of Mike Zimmer gave this club a work ethic on Defense that didn't exist with Lewis, though Zimmer had to deal with Marvin's crap like Maualuga, Peko and Michael Johnson, while watching all the 1st Round picks go to the Offense leaving him to make gold out of iron-ore. Zimmer left and everything became all Marvin as far as Attitude and we're left where we are at.

Just having Marvin gone will breath life into this franchise. But, a quality Head Coach is still needed for the Bengals to turn that breath of Life into a Positive atmosphere. I am hoping Mike Brown really listens to Duke more than anyone else while Hue Jackson and his toxic ways get far away from the organization.

[puca]

puca, the Head Coach is still going to establish the Attitude of the Club, along with the G.M., so it is important who they hire. What more evidence is needed than what we witnessed in Cleveland this season. That wasn't a dead-cat bounce. That was a change in Attitude throughout the organization. More proof is Marvin Lewis' 16 years in Portland. A lot of people try to give credit to Marvin when he first got here, but it was Carson Palmer, T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Rudi Johnson, our Offensive Line and Chad Johnson. Marvin was just along for the ride. Then the addition of Mike Zimmer gave this club a work ethic on Defense that didn't exist with Lewis, though Zimmer had to deal with Marvin's crap like Maualuga, Peko and Michael Johnson, while watching all the 1st Round picks go to the Offense leaving him to make gold out of iron-ore. Zimmer left and everything became all Marvin as far as Attitude and we're left where we are at.

Just having Marvin gone will breath life into this franchise. But, a quality Head Coach is still needed for the Bengals to turn that breath of Life into a Positive atmosphere. I am hoping Mike Brown really listens to Duke more than anyone else while Hue Jackson and his toxic ways get far away from the organization.

I'm willing to believe that Dorsey understands as well, and the hire will be 100% his call. He has shown great judgement so far, and clearly has a plan. I don't see him bringing in someone that doesn't fit.

[dubc47834]

Josh McDaniels "enthusiastically interested" in Browns HC position...

Could you imagine him and Baker together. Annoying Hue Jackson for years with all that cockiness!!!

[redsfandan]

puca, the Head Coach is still going to establish the Attitude of the Club, along with the G.M., so it is important who they hire. What more evidence is needed than what we witnessed in Cleveland this season. That wasn't a dead-cat bounce. That was a change in Attitude throughout the organization. More proof is Marvin Lewis' 16 years in Cincinnati. A lot of people try to give credit to Marvin when he first got here, but it was Carson Palmer, T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Rudi Johnson, our Offensive Line and Chad Johnson. Marvin was just along for the ride. Then the addition of Mike Zimmer gave this club a work ethic on Defense that didn't exist with Lewis, though Zimmer had to deal with Marvin's crap like Maualuga, Peko and Michael Johnson, while watching all the 1st Round picks go to the Offense leaving him to make gold out of iron-ore. Zimmer left and everything became all Marvin as far as Attitude and we're left where we are at.

Just having Marvin gone will breath life into this franchise. But, a quality Head Coach is still needed for the Bengals to turn that breath of Life into a Positive atmosphere. I am hoping Mike Brown really listens to Duke more than anyone else while Hue Jackson and his toxic ways get far away from the organization.

I bet most would disagree with you about that.

[Kingspoint]

I bet most would disagree with you about that.

They have a right to be wrong.

[redsfandan]

They have a right to be wrong.

Everyone can be wrong. I can be wrong and so can you.

Maybe we should just agree to disagree.

[Kingspoint]

Everyone can be wrong. I can be wrong and so can you.

Maybe we should just agree to disagree.

You can if you want.

[redsfandan]

You can if you want.

LOL

We should drop this. This IS a Cleveland Browns thread, after all.

Kitchens probably won't get the HC job due to very limited experience. My fear is Dorsey hires a guy that looks like a good hire, but, a guy that says he's ok with keeping Kitchens until . . . he isn't.

[puca]

LOL

We should drop this. This IS a Cleveland Browns thread, after all.

Kitchens probably won't get the HC job due to very limited experience. My fear is Dorsey hires a guy that looks like a good hire, but, a guy that says he's ok with keeping Kitchens until . . . he isn't.

Right now Dorsey has the ear and trust of the owner, any coach that tries to pull a power play is going to lose out, so I don't see that being a risk. If Dorsey wants Kitchens to stay on as OC next year and Kitchens is okay with that, then I have no doubt that is how it will play out. Dorsey lost a power play in Kansas City, I don't see him bringing in a coach that will challenge his authority.

[redsfandan]

Right now Dorsey has the ear and trust of the owner, any coach that tries to pull a power play is going to lose out, so I don't see that being a risk. If Dorsey wants Kitchens to stay on as OC next year and Kitchens is okay with that, then I have no doubt that is how it will play out. Dorsey lost a power play in Kansas City, I don't see him bringing in a coach that will challenge his authority.

Good point.

This is just an unusual situation.

[GAC]

I have faith that no matter happens the Browns will be fine (I can't believe I typed that).

It's like living in a bizarro world, and you're in the middle trying to determine which one is real! LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc_f-0DCGI0

[GAC]

puca, the Head Coach is still going to establish the Attitude of the Club, along with the G.M., so it is important who they hire. What more evidence is needed than what we witnessed in Cleveland this season. That wasn't a dead-cat bounce. That was a change in Attitude throughout the organization. More proof is Marvin Lewis' 16 years in Cincinnati. A lot of people try to give credit to Marvin when he first got here, but it was Carson Palmer, T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Rudi Johnson, our Offensive Line and Chad Johnson. Marvin was just along for the ride. Then the addition of Mike Zimmer gave this club a work ethic on Defense that didn't exist with Lewis, though Zimmer had to deal with Marvin's crap like Maualuga, Peko and Michael Johnson, while watching all the 1st Round picks go to the Offense leaving him to make gold out of iron-ore. Zimmer left and everything became all Marvin as far as Attitude and we're left where we are at.

Just having Marvin gone will breath life into this franchise. But, a quality Head Coach is still needed for the Bengals to turn that breath of Life into a Positive atmosphere. I am hoping Mike Brown really listens to Duke more than anyone else while Hue Jackson and his toxic ways get far away from the organization.

I agree with everything you state (above) for the most part. Sure, one should give a majority of the credit to the talent on that field as you mention. It certainly helps (LOL). Talent certainly makes any head coaches job easier. And I certainly understand Bengal fan's frustration with 16 years of Lewis, and that he was here too long. But as a head coach I still give him credit, along with his assembled coaching staff, with turning this team around, and restoring competitiveness and respectability, to a team that was really, really bad. They won division crowns, made play-off appearances, but yeah, never got over the "hump" (and playing in a division with the Steelers). But that still deserves some level of recognition for what he did accomplish.

He was just there too long (and that's Mike Brown's fault).

As for the Browns? ....

I'm enjoying how this has now become, what seems to be, a very in-demand or desirable job. We're talking Cleveland right? LOL

I want that head coach to simply be another piece of that puzzle that FITS with the pieces currently there. Dorsey will continue to build what they started. I'm figuring Dorsey already has an offensive scheme that he wants to further implement/improve on. And it centers around the QB for the most part (though I wouldn't discount the running game behind Chubbs). IMO, what Kitchens got out of this offense (Mayfield) when he took over, and Dorsey's refusal to allow others to interview Kitchens, tells me Dorsey wants him a part of this team in some capacity in 2019. And that's a good thing IMO.

To be honest, I don't care what type of "arrangement", as far as the coaching/coordinator position(s) go, is decided on. As long as it works, who cares? We see all types of "hybrids" around the NFL where HC's run one side (usually his forte), while a coordinator runs the other. All types of differing/varying situations there. My only issue with Kitchens is one of experience when it comes to those game time decisions, that doesn't involve only one side of the ball, that make/break head coaches. But every successful head coach we're watching now had to have a starting point, had to be given that opportunity. And you don't know until you give them that opportunity.

But Dorsey is a methodical man. He knows what he wants. He's got that puzzle started on the kitchen table, things are going well, but he's still digging through those remaining pieces scattered about trying to find the one that fits (LOL).

[redsfandan]

No details yet but it looks like Kitchens is the new head coach. Pretty rapid ascent. Hope it works.

[redsfandan]

Woops, should've posted it in this thread. Anyway, . . .

Who would've guessed a year ago that Kitchens would be the head coach for 2019. No one.

[KoryMac5]

Thanks for the memories Gregg Williams...here is the door.

[KoryMac5]

Job was offered to McCarthy with conditions that he keep Freddie Kitchens he declined so the Browns moved on to Kitchens...per Les Levine. Not sure how accurate that report is.

[Sea Ray]

Job was offered to McCarthy with conditions that he keep Freddie Kitchens he declined so the Browns moved on to Kitchens...per Les Levine. Not sure how accurate that report is.

The Browns obsession with Kitchens is strange. Why choose him over McCarthy?

It's also interesting that this NFL head coaching search has more turned into men interviewing employers rather than the other way around. That's the opposite of how it usually goes

As a Bengal fan, I'm pleased with this hire...although I have little confidence my front office will do any better

[Chip R]

The Browns obsession with Kitchens is strange. Why choose him over McCarthy?

It's also interesting that this NFL head coaching search has more turned into men interviewing employers rather than the other way around. That's the opposite of how it usually goes

As a Bengal fan, I'm pleased with this hire...although I have little confidence my front office will do any better

Did you see Green Bay's offense last year under McCarthy with arguably the best QB in the game? Compare that to CLE's offense under Kitchens with a rookie QB. Kitchens also gets along with Mayfield which is extremely important.

[KoryMac5]

I agree it says more about them not wanting to lose Freddie and also that McCarthy is a bit of a control freak which Rodgers bristled at...

[Sea Ray]

Did you see Green Bay's offense last year under McCarthy with arguably the best QB in the game? Compare that to CLE's offense under Kitchens with a rookie QB. Kitchens also gets along with Mayfield which is extremely important.

It's about more than just one yr. Kitchens has never been head of anything. He was an interim O coordinator for a couple months and that's it. McCarthy has a much more impressive resume. There's a lot more to this job than getting along with the QB. In fact I'd argue that it's best not to be best buds with the QB. We'll see who he surrounds himself with but I can't remember the last hire from w/i that worked out in the NFL. It's been awhile

[WVRed]

It's about more than just one yr. Kitchens has never been head of anything. He was an interim O coordinator for a couple months and that's it. McCarthy has a much more impressive resume. There's a lot more to this job than getting along with the QB. In fact I'd argue that it's best not to be best buds with the QB. We'll see who he surrounds himself with but I can't remember the last hire from w/i that worked out in the NFL. It's been awhile

I’d argue that they should have just kept the course.

Like I said it at the start, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Browns screwed this up.

[Kingspoint]

I agree it says more about them not wanting to lose Freddie and also that McCarthy is a bit of a control freak which Rodgers bristled at...

Nobody wants McCarthy.

[Assembly Hall]

It's about more than just one yr. Kitchens has never been head of anything. He was an interim O coordinator for a couple months and that's it. McCarthy has a much more impressive resume. There's a lot more to this job than getting along with the QB. In fact I'd argue that it's best not to be best buds with the QB. We'll see who he surrounds himself with but I can't remember the last hire from w/i that worked out in the NFL. It's been awhile

I guess it depends on what you mean by awhile. And the circumstances as well. Let me see. Parcells left NE for the Jets and Bill Belichick took over the Pats. Dungy retired from the Colts, and left Caldwell who got them to a SB. Heck, Marchibroda retired from the Colts and left Lindy Infante. Now all that being said, I don't know about a coach getting fired and someone on the staff taking over and leading them to success for years to come.

[GAC]

Did you see Green Bay's offense last year under McCarthy with arguably the best QB in the game? Compare that to CLE's offense under Kitchens with a rookie QB. Kitchens also gets along with Mayfield which is extremely important.

That's not all though. Some seem to be under the impression that Kitchens, since he's gotten so much attention after what he accomplished with the Brown's offense this year, is somehow "new to the scene", came out of nowhere. Take a look at this guy's resume, who he mentored under, as he rose through the college and pro ranks at various offensive coaching positions. So he not only has a lot of coaching experience, but he made an impact, got results (especially with QBs). He just doesn't have any head coaching experience.

Well, they all have to start somewhere. Even the great ones (LOL). And they got those opportunities by doing something to get them recognized/considered as possible head coaching candidates. So I'm still trying to figure out why the others somehow deserved their shots, but not Kitchens? He certainly has the resume IMO to be given that opportunity.

I've looked around at many of the head coaching "candidates" who are currently available or under consideration by teams ... and I'm really not that impressed. None certainly overwhelmed me. Some I'm glad they steered clear of.

Ready for some new blood. Give the guy a shot. Now go out and get you a sound defensive coordinator to develop and work with our young defense.

Over on the Bengal's thread, their fans don't want nothing to do with "retread" McCarthy? Why?

[GAC]

There's a lot more to this job than getting along with the QB.

That's not the primary reason/motive as to why Dorsey hired him (LOL). And it's wasn't about "getting along" with your QB. It was about "working with, listening to" not only your QB, but the other offensive players, valuing their input, listening to them when needed, changing things up when required. Not just Mayfield, but all the players on offense have heaped praise on Kitchens and his approach to coaching this offense. He got them working together as a solid unit. And that was shown on the field.

What did he do, with the same players Jackson/Haley had mind you, that effected such a turnaround performance in this offense?

[puca]

That's not the primary reason/motive as to why Dorsey hired him (LOL). And it's wasn't about "getting along" with your QB. It was about "working with, listening to" not only your QB, but the other offensive players, valuing their input, listening to them when needed, changing things up when required. Not just Mayfield, but all the players on offense have heaped praise on Kitchens and his approach to coaching this offense. He got them working together as a solid unit. And that was shown on the field.

What did he do, with the same players Jackson/Haley had mind you, that effected such a turnaround performance in this offense?

Not surprised he didn't hire McCarthy. I'm guessing the last thing Dorsey wanted was a head coach that was too full of himself. I am surprised by the Kitchens hire. Head coach needs to be the bad guy and Kitchens has played the good guy for a long time. We'll see how it goes. I still trust Dorsey until he gives me a reason not to.

[Sea Ray]

I guess it depends on what you mean by awhile. And the circumstances as well. Let me see. Parcells left NE for the Jets and Bill Belichick took over the Pats. Dungy retired from the Colts, and left Caldwell who got them to a SB. Heck, Marchibroda retired from the Colts and left Lindy Infante. Now all that being said, I don't know about a coach getting fired and someone on the staff taking over and leading them to success for years to come.

Parcells and Belichick were not hires from w/i. They were with other teams previously in the examples you gave. It rarely works in the NFL.

- - - Updated - - -


That's not the primary reason/motive as to why Dorsey hired him (LOL). And it's wasn't about "getting along" with your QB. It was about "working with, listening to" not only your QB, but the other offensive players, valuing their input, listening to them when needed, changing things up when required. Not just Mayfield, but all the players on offense have heaped praise on Kitchens and his approach to coaching this offense. He got them working together as a solid unit. And that was shown on the field.

What did he do, with the same players Jackson/Haley had mind you, that effected such a turnaround performance in this offense?

This is a riskier hire than Hue was a few yrs ago

[puca]

Parcells and Belichick were not hires from w/i. They were with other teams previously in the examples you gave. It rarely works in the NFL.

- - - Updated - - -



This is a riskier hire than Hue was a few yrs ago

But again, Hue was not vetted/hired by Dorsey, Kitchens was. It's not a hire I expected or particularly embrace at the moment, but Dorsey has a history of success, is closer to the situation and knows more about building a football team than any of us. I'll continue to trust Dorsey until he gives me reason not to.

[GAC]

This is a riskier hire than Hue was a few yrs ago

Don't see it. This head coach has a lot more to work with talent-wise to begin his job then the previous one. A lot firmer foundation. And we also got to see what he could do in the last half (8 games) of the season calling the offense. Pretty impressive turn-around.

But I'm not giving Kitchens all the credit for that offensive turn-around either. It began, was orchestrated, by Dorsey. Not only with the firings, but he also got rid of the RB Hyde (who was having a good year) and WR Gordon (whom some thought was going to be our star receiver).

Do you really want to know why I think Dorsey selected Kitchens? It's not just his coaching experience at both levels (12 years in the NFL), or what we witnessed with the offense this year when he took over as offense coordinator ... and on a side note - when he was given that coordinator job in Cleveland, many laughed, thought it was a bad choice, because he'd never been a coordinator at any level .... it's because he's not an outwardly, nor confrontational, personality, he does seek notoriety, or attention. Not like a Haley and other coaches we could name who have reputations. Remember, Dorsey lost his GM job because of a power struggle with the head coach (Reid). IMO, that's why McCarthy isn't here. Dorsey is not going to get that from Kitchens.

Dorsey has his plan, a scheme, that he wants this offense built around. He went out and got the players to fit that, and Kitchens has shown he can implement it. And that involves taking orders too, because Dorsey likes his control. And if it involved an experienced, seasoned head coach that might cause some problems.

Maybe Dorsey sees this as an opportunity to mentor Kitchens?

[Sea Ray]

Don't see it. This head coach has a lot more to work with talent-wise to begin his job then the previous one. A lot firmer foundation. And we also got to see what he could do in the last half (8 games) of the season calling the offense. Pretty impressive turn-around.

But I'm not giving Kitchens all the credit for that offensive turn-around either. It began, was orchestrated, by Dorsey. Not only with the firings, but he also got rid of the RB Hyde (who was having a good year) and WR Gordon (whom some thought was going to be our star receiver).

Do you really want to know why I think Dorsey selected Kitchens? It's not just his coaching experience at both levels (12 years in the NFL), or what we witnessed with the offense this year when he took over as offense coordinator ... and on a side note - when he was given that coordinator job in Cleveland, many laughed, thought it was a bad choice, because he'd never been a coordinator at any level .... it's because he's not an outwardly, nor confrontational, personality, he does seek notoriety, or attention. Not like a Haley and other coaches we could name who have reputations. Remember, Dorsey lost his GM job because of a power struggle with the head coach (Reid). IMO, that's why McCarthy isn't here. Dorsey is not going to get that from Kitchens.

Dorsey has his plan, a scheme, that he wants this offense built around. He went out and got the players to fit that, and Kitchens has shown he can implement it. And that involves taking orders too, because Dorsey likes his control. And if it involved an experienced, seasoned head coach that might cause some problems.

Maybe Dorsey sees this as an opportunity to mentor Kitchens?

The talent he has to work with is definitely better but that says nothing about the head coach. Hue had a lot more experience up and down the NFL ladder than Kitchens. This guy is a wild card. If the GM wants to mentor him, so be it, but that's rarely a thing in the NFL.

[GAC]

The talent he has to work with is definitely better but that says nothing about the head coach. Hue had a lot more experience up and down the NFL ladder than Kitchens.

So what? Experience is obviously a ingredient when searching for a head coach. But I don't think it's elevated to the position you seem to assign it. It's certainly doesn't over-ride the other considerations a GM looks at (and for) when they're searching for a head coach. In fact, depending on what that GM is looking for in a head coach, I'd bet experience is farther down on the list. And not all experience is an asset. So what if you have 10 years experience coaching in the NFL, was even a head coach? What have you got to show from that experience? If the overall assessment is so-so or bad, then all you can brag on, as far as experience is concerned, is you've been around longer (LOL).

There's always going to be a level of risk or gamble involved. And I certainly understand those "raised eyebrows" and apprehensions concerning Kitchens. But he's got 13 years of experience with various NFL teams in various offensive coaching positions. In his 20 year coaching career he's had the opportunity to learn under some great coaches (Saban, Parcells, Arians, etc). His tenure in Arizona under head coach/OC Whisenhunt was one of success (growth) in which he also made it to a Super Bowl. What he did with Mayfield/offense this year was not some one-trick pony. As QB coach he was very instrumental in resurrecting Palmer's career.

At every level he's been promoted to he's made the most of it when he could and got results. Yeah, it's a big step (and quite fast), no denying. But other then Arians and McCarthy, I look at all those other "candidates" and I'm not overly impressed. Yeah, some may beat Kitchens in the head coaching experience department, but what did they do when they had their shot? Why aren't they still a head coach?

And Kitchens does have one advantage over the others above .... he's been on the inside for the last year working under Dorsey. He knows, and has become comfortable within, that system, the players, etc. He's shown he can run this offense. And it's not a disadvantage that a head coach has a solid/close, even cozy, relationship with his QB either. ... Landry/Staubach, Shula/Marino, Noll/Bradshaw, Belichick/Brady, the list goes on. What other kind should you have (LOL)?

The guy has been on the sidelines, and in the clubhouse, for 13 years watching/learning from head coaches, and what their job involves. I'd say a majority of your coaches that have been in the NFL for awhile are quite familiar with what all the job involves. The question as to whether they have the mettle, can handle it or not, do what is needed for success, is another story. He'll be in "school" from now until next season starts. And I'm sure he'll make his share of "mistakes". I think he'll do fine handling the offense/play calling. We'll see when it comes to the other game time decisions.

Just get him a sound defensive coordinator to work with these young guys ... and Dorsey still needs to get some pieces in various areas of weakness.

For 20 years we Brown fans have watched this organization be an embarrassment to the NFL. And did so under the auspices of management and coaches who had vast NFL experience, name recognition, and solid reputations. LOL

Yeah ... give the guy a shot! He does have a pretty sound front office behind him that knows what it's doing (so far)

[and I can't believe I said that about a Brown's front office either] LOL

[puca]

The talent he has to work with is definitely better but that says nothing about the head coach. Hue had a lot more experience up and down the NFL ladder than Kitchens. This guy is a wild card. If the GM wants to mentor him, so be it, but that's rarely a thing in the NFL.

Interesting. It appears that the other team in Ohio are poised to hire a guy with even less experience (and success) at 'being the head of anything' than Kitchens.

[Sea Ray]

So what? Experience is obviously a ingredient when searching for a head coach. But I don't think it's elevated to the position you seem to assign it. It's certainly doesn't over-ride the other considerations a GM looks at (and for) when they're searching for a head coach. In fact, depending on what that GM is looking for in a head coach, I'd bet experience is farther down on the list. And not all experience is an asset. So what if you have 10 years experience coaching in the NFL, was even a head coach? What have you got to show from that experience? If the overall assessment is so-so or bad, then all you can brag on, as far as experience is concerned, is you've been around longer (LOL).

There's always going to be a level of risk or gamble involved. And I certainly understand those "raised eyebrows" and apprehensions concerning Kitchens. But he's got 13 years of experience with various NFL teams in various offensive coaching positions. In his 20 year coaching career he's had the opportunity to learn under some great coaches (Saban, Parcells, Arians, etc). His tenure in Arizona under head coach/OC Whisenhunt was one of success (growth) in which he also made it to a Super Bowl. What he did with Mayfield/offense this year was not some one-trick pony. As QB coach he was very instrumental in resurrecting Palmer's career.

At every level he's been promoted to he's made the most of it when he could and got results. Yeah, it's a big step (and quite fast), no denying. But other then Arians and McCarthy, I look at all those other "candidates" and I'm not overly impressed. Yeah, some may beat Kitchens in the head coaching experience department, but what did they do when they had their shot? Why aren't they still a head coach?

And Kitchens does have one advantage over the others above .... he's been on the inside for the last year working under Dorsey. He knows, and has become comfortable within, that system, the players, etc. He's shown he can run this offense. And it's not a disadvantage that a head coach has a solid/close, even cozy, relationship with his QB either. ... Landry/Staubach, Shula/Marino, Noll/Bradshaw, Belichick/Brady, the list goes on. What other kind should you have (LOL)?

The guy has been on the sidelines, and in the clubhouse, for 13 years watching/learning from head coaches, and what their job involves. I'd say a majority of your coaches that have been in the NFL for awhile are quite familiar with what all the job involves. The question as to whether they have the mettle, can handle it or not, do what is needed for success, is another story. He'll be in "school" from now until next season starts. And I'm sure he'll make his share of "mistakes". I think he'll do fine handling the offense/play calling. We'll see when it comes to the other game time decisions.

Just get him a sound defensive coordinator to work with these young guys ... and Dorsey still needs to get some pieces in various areas of weakness.

For 20 years we Brown fans have watched this organization be an embarrassment to the NFL. And did so under the auspices of management and coaches who had vast NFL experience, name recognition, and solid reputations. LOL

Yeah ... give the guy a shot! He does have a pretty sound front office behind him that knows what it's doing (so far)

[and I can't believe I said that about a Brown's front office either] LOL

So what? You of all people should know the value of experience. I present to you exhibit A: Bill Belichick. Don't tell me he wasn't a better coach after leaving Cleveland than he was as Browns coach. He learned a lot from that experience. I'll bet that Adam Gase will be a better coach in NY than he was in Miami. Experience is important. Not necessarily a deal breaker but it's very important and my point is merely this: the less of it you have , the more risky the pick.

"Give the guy a shot". Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah...it was Deshone Kizer, Johnny Manziel, Hue Jackson...

Once again, hiring from within rarely works well in the NFL. That's a whole 'nother ball of wax

- - - Updated - - -


Interesting. It appears that the other team in Ohio are poised to hire a guy with even less experience (and success) at 'being the head of anything' than Kitchens.

The other team in Ohio is not known for its expertise in running a franchise. What's your point here? You have to strive to be the Steelers, not the Bengals.

[puca]

And Kitchens does have one advantage over the others above .... he's been on the inside for the last year working under Dorsey. He knows, and has become comfortable within, that system, the players, etc. He's shown he can run this offense. And it's not a disadvantage that a head coach has a solid/close, even cozy, relationship with his QB either. ... Landry/Staubach, Shula/Marino, Noll/Bradshaw, Belichick/Brady, the list goes on. What other kind should you have (LOL)?
LOL

If I recall correctly Noll/Bradshaw was not a cozy relationship and I'm not sure I'd call Belecheck/Brady cozy either, but the reason all of those situations worked was because there was never a doubt about who was actually in charge, partly because the coaches were already established before the superstar quarterback came onto the scene. This case is different and certainly bears watching. The head coach has to sometimes play the role of the bad cop and put his foot down. Mayfield is a big personality and I could certainly see him undermining Kitchens if things don't go his way. I'm not doubting the hire, but I can see how things could go wrong.

[puca]

The other team in Ohio is not known for its expertise in running a franchise. What's your point here? You have to strive to be the Steelers, not the Bengals.

So we should expect to see the same types of negative posts from you on the Bengals thread - you know a team you actually care about?

Besides the Steelers have done quite well with a coach I don't hold in very high esteem.

[Sea Ray]

So we should expect to see the same types of negative posts from you on the Bengals thread - you know a team you actually care about?

I'll say similar things...that the Bengals are taking a big chance. But there are differences. Zac Taylor is not a hiring from within. He's also coordinated an offense before on something more than an interim basis. If you want real negative, read my posts after they hire Hue Jackson. There won't be any "he got a raw deal from the Browns...let's give the guy a chance."

You are correct that I'm a Bengal fan and that makes the Browns my rival. I don't think I'm a Bengal homer though but if you think I'm looking at the Bengals thru rose colord glasses I encourage you to speak up.

I'll speak up now and say that your comments sound like whining. I'm looking at the Browns from a non fan perspective...something this board badly needs

[Sea Ray]

Besides the Steelers have done quite well with a coach I don't hold in very high esteem.

I'm no fan of Tomlin either but Browns and Bengal fans have no room to complain about him. We all strive for the success enjoyed under Tomlin and he was a respected coordinator in the NFL before getting the Steelers' job, something that neither Kitchens nor Taylor have on their resume.

[puca]

I'll say similar things...that the Bengals are taking a big chance. But there are differences. Zac Taylor is not a hiring from within. He's also coordinated an offense before on something more than an interim basis. If you want real negative, read my posts after they hire Hue Jackson. There won't be any "he got a raw deal from the Browns...let's give the guy a chance."

You are correct that I'm a Bengal fan and that makes the Browns my rival. I don't think I'm a Bengal homer though but if you think I'm looking at the Bengals thru rose colord glasses I encourage you to speak up.

I'll speak up now and say that your comments sound like whining. I'm looking at the Browns from a non fan perspective...something this board badly needs

You may not be a Bengals homer, but your fandom certainly clouds your perspective of the Browns and any move they make. Kitchens is certainly a risky hire, but pretty much anyone would have been. I know that in his previous two stops Dorsey has been involved in creating powerhouse football teams, so I suspect he knows the parameters in play as well as anyone. If after vetting Kitchens (and he has had a lot of time to observe and get to know him), he believes he is the right man to lead this team, then who am I to argue. His track record speaks for itself.

[kaldaniels]

Bill Parcells was a hire from within on the Giants so while he doesn’t fit “the example given” he certainly qualifies as a success.

Now - there aren’t many “from within” success stories cause teams rarely hire from within. Usually a coach is fired due to poor performance - teams don’t go rushing to promote someone from that fired regime. So there is a smaller pool of “from within” guys hired. The question would be how does the “from within” pool compare to the “from outside” pool.

Heck I’d consider Mike Martz a success for the Rams despite him flaming out.

[Sea Ray]

You may not be a Bengals homer, but your fandom certainly clouds your perspective of the Browns and any move they make. Kitchens is certainly a risky hire, but pretty much anyone would have been. I know that in his previous two stops Dorsey has been involved in creating powerhouse football teams, so I suspect he knows the parameters in play as well as anyone. If after vetting Kitchens (and he has had a lot of time to observe and get to know him), he believes he is the right man to lead this team, then who am I to argue. His track record speaks for itself.

I don't get why you're so defensive when you agree with me. Nothing you said above goes against anything I said. Nothing. So what did I say that clouds my perspective?

As for Dorsey, he's never hired a head coach before. Kitchens is his first hire. He has no track record to speak for itself. If you want to have faith that's great. The motto here in Cincinnati when Marvin was hired was "trust in Marvin." I get it. That's what you should do and I have no problem with that. You're getting your panties in a wad for no reason. We don't disagree anywhere from what I can see.

[Assembly Hall]

So we should expect to see the same types of negative posts from you on the Bengals thread - you know a team you actually care about?

Besides the Steelers have done quite well with a coach I don't hold in very high esteem.

Who are we kidding? The Steelers are just a well ran organization. In my lifetime, I am 51, they have had 3 coaches. All with long tenures. And all 3 with SB rings and appearances. The measuring stick for success in the division, and all of the NFL for that matter, is Pittsburgh.

[puca]

Who are we kidding? The Steelers are just a well ran organization. In my lifetime, I am 51, they have had 3 coaches. All with long tenures. And all 3 with SB rings and appearances. The measuring stick for success in the division, and all of the NFL for that matter, is Pittsburgh.

Exactly. The head coach is not the be-all end-all that defines success. He is another piece of the puzzle. The most important thing is that the piece actually fits.

[Sea Ray]

Bill Parcells was a hire from within on the Giants so while he doesn’t fit “the example given” he certainly qualifies as a success.

Now - there aren’t many “from within” success stories cause teams rarely hire from within. Usually a coach is fired due to poor performance - teams don’t go rushing to promote someone from that fired regime. So there is a smaller pool of “from within” guys hired. The question would be how does the “from within” pool compare to the “from outside” pool.

Heck I’d consider Mike Martz a success for the Rams despite him flaming out.

Bill Parcells? You're going back 36 yrs to dig that one up? 18 of the past 20 hires from w/i have been a failure, including the last ten. Recent history is that hires from w/i do not work. And we know this in Cincinnati...Bill Johnson, Homer Rice, Bruce Coslet, Dick Lebeau, Steakhouse Dave

- - - Updated - - -


Who are we kidding? The Steelers are just a well ran organization. In my lifetime, I am 51, they have had 3 coaches. All with long tenures. And all 3 with SB rings and appearances. The measuring stick for success in the division, and all of the NFL for that matter, is Pittsburgh.

No doubt. You're making my point. They are the standard to strive for

[puca]

I don't get why you're so defensive when you agree with me. Nothing you said above goes against anything I said. Nothing. So what did I say that clouds my perspective?

As for Dorsey, he's never hired a head coach before. Kitchens is his first hire. He has no track record to speak for itself. If you want to have faith that's great. The motto here in Cincinnati when Marvin was hired was "trust in Marvin." I get it. That's what you should do and I have no problem with that. You're getting your panties in a wad for no reason. We don't disagree anywhere from what I can see.

It seems to me you're the one with the 'panties in a wad'. I simply asked whether we should expect you to spend as much energy on the Bengals thread questioning their head coaching hire as you do on a thread for a team you don't care about. That question seemed to send you off on personal attack mode.

[Assembly Hall]

Bill Parcells was a hire from within on the Giants so while he doesn’t fit “the example given” he certainly qualifies as a success.

Now - there aren’t many “from within” success stories cause teams rarely hire from within. Usually a coach is fired due to poor performance - teams don’t go rushing to promote someone from that fired regime. So there is a smaller pool of “from within” guys hired. The question would be how does the “from within” pool compare to the “from outside” pool.

Heck I’d consider Mike Martz a success for the Rams despite him flaming out.

And we got George Seifert. 2 SB titles. Followed Walsh from Stanford.

[Sea Ray]

It seems to me you're the one with the 'panties in a wad'. I simply asked whether we should expect you to spend as much energy on the Bengals thread questioning their head coaching hire as you do on a thread for a team you don't care about. That question seemed to send you off on personal attack mode.

And my reply was about your post...not you personally. I described your post as whining. Fair game. Sorry you can't handle that

[kaldaniels]

Bill Parcells? You're going back 36 yrs to dig that one up? 18 of the past 20 hires from w/i have been a failure, including the last ten. Recent history is that hires from w/i do not work. And we know this in Cincinnati...Bill Johnson, Homer Rice, Bruce Coslet, Dick Lebeau, Steakhouse Dave

- - - Updated - - -



No doubt. You're making my point. They are the standard to strive for

Who are the last 20 hires from within? I have no clue myself and am interested. The only 2 from within guys I see currently in the league are Garrett and Kitchens. Garrett is pretty blah so far but I wouldn’t call him a failure as you did.

[Sea Ray]

And we got George Seifert. 2 SB titles. Followed Walsh from Stanford.

Can you get me an example from the 21st century?

[kaldaniels]

And we got George Seifert. 2 SB titles. Followed Walsh from Stanford.

You’ve got to go back 29 years to dig that up?

Oh, and GAC wanted to give Kizer a chance - what a fool!

[puca]

And my reply was about your post...not you personally. I described your post as whining. Fair game. Sorry you can't handle that

And there you go again. I'll leave it now. For the sake of the rest of the board, I'll simply put you on ignore.

[Assembly Hall]

Can you get me an example from the 21st century?

What does that matter? That ain't the way you posed the question to begin with. So now we are talking from within and a time frame?

[kaldaniels]

Do you notice how Sea Ray uses the 1976 hire of Bill Johnson to help his cause...but eliminates Parcells and Seifert from the discussion.

[Sea Ray]

Skip Bayless on the hire:


https://www.foxsports.com/watch/undisputed/video/1423356483904

[Sea Ray]

Do you notice how Sea Ray uses the 1976 hire of Bill Johnson to help his cause...but eliminates Parcells and Seifert from the discussion.

I was really not using that to help my cause but to show how badly "my team" has done in this arena. It was intimated earlier how I didn't treat my team as harshly as the Browns.

Can't win with some of you around here.

In recent history hires from w/i have not worked out

[Assembly Hall]

Skip Bayless on the hire:


https://www.foxsports.com/watch/undisputed/video/1423356483904

When was the last time Skip was ever right about anything?

[kaldaniels]

I was really not using that to help my cause but to show how badly "my team" has done in this arena. It was intimated earlier how I didn't treat my team as harshly as the Browns.

Can't win with some of you around here.

In recent history hires from w/i have not worked out

I asked who these last 20 from within guys are you spoke of and you haven’t helped me out on that. I can’t find them so I simply ask who they are.

[kaldaniels]

Do interim coaches fall into the “18 of the last 20 hires from within are failures” pool? For example Gregg Williams or the guy who finished out the year in Green Bay?

[Assembly Hall]

Do interim coaches fall into the “18 of the last 20 hires from within are failures” pool? For example Gregg Williams or the guy who finished out the year in Green Bay?

Arians with the Colts?

[Bob Sheed]

Guys.... listen....

If you can't take the heat....

Get out of the Kitchens.

:rockband:

[GAC]

So what? You of all people should know the value of experience.

I know the value of it. I also know that not all experience(s) are created equally. And you should know that.


I present to you exhibit A: Bill Belichick. Don't tell me he wasn't a better coach after leaving Cleveland than he was as Browns coach.

Was Belichick interviewed for the Brown's job? Yeah, I might be a little upset if they hired Freddie over Bill (LOL).

Just like I stated prior - there are coaches who have NFL experience, but as far as achievement goes there's not much there to brag on, other then they've hung around the NFL. Then you have a coach(s) like a Belichick who is an example of a head coach whose experience carries far more weight, has far more worth, because he took that knowledge he learned and attained success and greatness with it. But you know as well as I do that's not always the case.


Experience is important.

Again. Never said it wasn't. It's an issue of what's it's level of importance in comparison to those other considerations? And for some reason you seem to be avoiding giving any type of recognition to Kitchen's 13 years of NFL coaching experience, and what he has accomplished. Just like Belicheck gained knowledge as he worked his way up the ladder, and earned recognition ....why is that different with Kitchens, and the knowledge he gained, and those coaches that he learned under? And don't come back accusing me of comparing Kitchens to Belichick either (LOL). All coaches gain knowledge as they progress. It's when you take it and accomplish something with it. Kitchen hasn't?

No one is making any bold predictions about Kitchens. No one is denying the risk involved. I'm comfortable he posses enough experience he's not going to drown as our head coach, an should be given the shot.


I'll bet that Adam Gase will be a better coach in NY than he was in Miami. Experience is important.

Maybe he will. Maybe he won't. You don't know. Were you impressed with his Miami team this year? Why was he fired from Miami? What did Gase learn in Miami, before he was fired, that will make him a better coach in NY? The Dolphins were among the NFL's worst offensive teams in the league during his tenure. So lets see how he does with his second shot.



"Give the guy a shot". Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah...it was Deshone Kizer, Johnny Manziel, Hue Jackson...

Yeah, none of those three should have been given a chance when they were initially brought here. Well, not everybody can be perfect and right like you all the time (LOL).

And that really is all this about IMO. You're playing your "game", formulating your preseason take on the Browns, taking note of mine and others, so you can come back during the '19 season and say "I told you so!". No problem. But if it's the other way around I'm rubbing your face in it buddy! LOL

[GAC]

The head coach has to sometimes play the role of the bad cop and put his foot down. Mayfield is a big personality and I could certainly see him undermining Kitchens if things don't go his way. I'm not doubting the hire, but I can see how things could go wrong.

Yep. I can absolutely see that possibility. Mayfield is definitely an extrovert, and Kitchens not that out-going (LOL). We'll just have to wait and see what evolves. But I don't think that means that Kitchens will let Mayfield walk all over and dominate him.

[GAC]

I know that in his previous two stops Dorsey has been involved in creating powerhouse football teams, so I suspect he knows the parameters in play as well as anyone. If after vetting Kitchens (and he has had a lot of time to observe and get to know him), he believes he is the right man to lead this team, then who am I to argue. His track record speaks for itself.

SeaRay seems to feel he needs to inject himself as the the objective one, that voice of reason from the "outside", because Brown fans in this discussion are so busy blindly following and slobbering over GM Dorsey we really aren't thinking too clearly right now in our heightened state of ecstasy (LOL).

I'm not going to apologize for being ecstatic. If his Bengals had the same dire history, and saw a new GM (solid resume) come in and make such startling and positive changes so fast, turn an 0-16 team into a 7-8-1 team in one season ... he'd be ecstatic and just as trusting in that GM (until he proves otherwise).

And until this GM starts making those bad/questionable decisions, starts showing evidence he doesn't know what he's doing, then let the train keep a rollin'!

It's obviously not enough to acknowledge the risk Dorsey took in this hiring (which we all did). NEWSFLASH! ... It doesn't take a rocket scientist to come out and say the Kitchens hiring was risky. Who can argue with that? You can't. You're not sticking your neck out to any great length, going to some place where there's no return (LOL). You never said Kitchens shouldn't have been hired either. It's actually a pretty "place it safe" position. If Kitchens struggles/fails, they can come back and say "I told you so. You all need to listen to me". And if Kitchens succeeds, and it's pointed out to them they can simply say "I never said he'd fail. All I said was that it was really risky". Bases covered.

I've not made any grand proclamations about Kitchens other then give him the chance, and he has my support. What else can I really do?

Now it would take balls to say that Kitchens selection was the absolute right choice, no doubt whatsoever, and he's going to coach the Browns to new heights in 2019. LOL

[GAC]

Skip Bayless on the hire:


https://www.foxsports.com/watch/undisputed/video/1423356483904

I value his opinion about as much as I do Colin Cowherd's and Stephen A Smith's (LOL). This is how they make their living.

[Assembly Hall]

I value his opinion about as much as I do Colin Cowherd's and Stephen A Smith's (LOL). This is how they make their living.

As a Colts fan, two things stick with me about Skip. He is the idiot that thought the Colts should take Leaf over Manning. And the very same idiot that thought the Colts should take RG3 over Luck. So Skip's opinion carries absolutely no weight with me, nor will it ever.

As far as the Browns, they have been a poorly ran organization. All I know about Dorsey is that he knows talent. In my eyes he is like Bill Polian. And that is a good thing. If Freddie is his man, then so be it.

[KoryMac5]

It will be interesting to see the trajectories of both Taylor and Kitchens over the next 3 seasons...They have really similar back grounds when you look at it and are both really bold hires by two franchises who have been bogged down by poor coaching the last few seasons.

[Sea Ray]

I know the value of it. I also know that not all experience(s) are created equally. And you should know that.



Was Belichick interviewed for the Brown's job? Yeah, I might be a little upset if they hired Freddie over Bill (LOL).

Just like I stated prior - there are coaches who have NFL experience, but as far as achievement goes there's not much there to brag on, other then they've hung around the NFL. Then you have a coach(s) like a Belichick who is an example of a head coach whose experience carries far more weight, has far more worth, because he took that knowledge he learned and attained success and greatness with it. But you know as well as I do that's not always the case.



Again. Never said it wasn't. It's an issue of what's it's level of importance in comparison to those other considerations? And for some reason you seem to be avoiding giving any type of recognition to Kitchen's 13 years of NFL coaching experience, and what he has accomplished. Just like Belicheck gained knowledge as he worked his way up the ladder, and earned recognition ....why is that different with Kitchens, and the knowledge he gained, and those coaches that he learned under? And don't come back accusing me of comparing Kitchens to Belichick either (LOL). All coaches gain knowledge as they progress. It's when you take it and accomplish something with it. Kitchen hasn't?

No one is making any bold predictions about Kitchens. No one is denying the risk involved. I'm comfortable he posses enough experience he's not going to drown as our head coach, an should be given the shot.



Maybe he will. Maybe he won't. You don't know. Were you impressed with his Miami team this year? Why was he fired from Miami? What did Gase learn in Miami, before he was fired, that will make him a better coach in NY? The Dolphins were among the NFL's worst offensive teams in the league during his tenure. So lets see how he does with his second shot.




Yeah, none of those three should have been given a chance when they were initially brought here. Well, not everybody can be perfect and right like you all the time (LOL).

And that really is all this about IMO. You're playing your "game", formulating your preseason take on the Browns, taking note of mine and others, so you can come back during the '19 season and say "I told you so!". No problem. But if it's the other way around I'm rubbing your face in it buddy! LOL

Actually I was pretty impressed with Adam Gase. Of all the fired coaches, he was the only one I'd be interested in re-hiring right away as a head coach. I liked his fire and his teams played hard. He had injuries and a bad situation there in Miami. I also think he learned a little something as a rookie coach.

Rub my nose in it? Fine by me and if you do I'll own up to it without the sarcasm. I'll say yeah I was wrong and it's the unpredictability of sports that keeps me interested. What's so tough about saying that? It sure won't be like you reacted above and I'll leave it at that.

As for Kitchens, it sounds like you and I agree. He's a very risky hire. I don't know why you're giving me so much static since we agree. My Bengals are also poised to make a risky hire. If you or anyone else tell me that, I'll say yeah, I agree! I'll follow it up with "at least it's not a 17th yr of Marvin or Hue Jackson and I'll take my chances."

[JaxRed]

Ok guys.... time to talk about the Browns and not each other. Back on topic.

[kaldaniels]

Did I miss something. I asked for some stats to be backed up or explained.... I have no idea what happened.

[Assembly Hall]

Did I miss something. I asked for some stats to be backed up or explained.... I have no idea what happened.

Yeah, the Colts got beat.

[GAC]

I thought this was a good article concerning what coaches and players, who have worked with Kitchens, have to say about him and this hiring .... https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/what-they-re-saying-about-freddie-kitchens-baker-mayfield-dabo-swinney-kurt-warn

[Assembly Hall]

I thought this was a good article concerning what coaches and players, who have worked with Kitchens, have to say about him and this hiring .... https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/what-they-re-saying-about-freddie-kitchens-baker-mayfield-dabo-swinney-kurt-warn

I think that pretty much sums up everything.

Hopefully GAC, I get to see more of the Browns next year on TV.

[RedTeamGo!]

I get that Kitchens is “technically” an in-house hire, but the dude has been with the Browns for only 1 year. It’s not like this dude was an assistant for all of Hue’s tenure or a browns coach for a decade. It’s basically a hire from outside the org. Flame away, but it’s the truth.

[GAC]

I think that pretty much sums up everything.

Hopefully GAC, I get to see more of the Browns next year on TV.

You ain't the only one, and I live in central Ohia! I no longer have cable/satellite. It wasn't only the rising cost, but I got into a beef with both - a losing battle on my part - because I live closer to Columbus then I do Dayton, yet my locals were out of Dayton. And they said it was because of federal regulations. So every Sunday at 1 PM on CBS my choice was Bengals or Bengals (LOL). Now this past season 10Tv (CBS) out of Columbus would "peel off" their coverage and carry a Brown's game. But I can't get Columbus stations at all. I have a really good internal antenna - plus Bellefontaine is the highest point in Ohia! - and I get every Dayton station in fantastic. Can't get anything from Columbus and I'm somewhat perplexed. I'm assuming it has something to do with the analog-to-digital conversion several years ago, and the location of their antennas. Because I use to be able to get a lot of those Columbus stations.

I live rural, so I'm going to investigate getting an outside antenna with greater range and see if that will fix it.

I looked up CBS' broadcast map for the state of Ohio earlier this year. It was like 95% Bengals, and only around Cleveland was it Browns (LOL). And that's understandable as bad as the Browns have been. I'm just wondering, if the Browns continue to surge, if that coverage map might be "adjusted". ;)

[GAC]

I get that Kitchens is “technically” an in-house hire, but the dude has been with the Browns for only 1 year. It’s not like this dude was an assistant for all of Hue’s tenure or a browns coach for a decade. It’s basically a hire from outside the org. Flame away, but it’s the truth.

You bring up a very valid point my friend. Does "in-house" simply mean my current employer? I always thought of it as someone who has been in that organization for at least a few years (or longer), doing a solid job, and were always looked at as a candidate replacement. So I see where you coming from with Kitchens, and only being there one year.

I sometimes look at the entire NFL as "in-house" (LOL). Take a look at the resumes/history of a vast majority of the various types of coaches in the NFL. They've been around, going where they need to, to not only stay employed but in hopes of getting recognition and advancement. Coaches of all shapes and sizes are constantly being hired, fired, or "stolen" by the competition. JMO, but I think the organizational/management structure, how the system is run, is probably basically the same within each NFL team. Variations obviously, but no great disparity. In other words, coaches, no matter what their job may be, aren't going into a situation flying blind and oblivious, but possess enough knowledge to adapt.

I liked what Kitchens said the other day when interviewed - "I expect these players to make me look great!" LOL

[puca]

You bring up a very valid point my friend. Does "in-house" simply mean my current employer? I always thought of it as someone who has been in that organization for at least a few years (or longer), doing a solid job, and were always looked at as a candidate replacement. So I see where you coming from with Kitchens, and only being there one year.

I sometimes look at the entire NFL as "in-house" (LOL). Take a look at the resumes/history of a vast majority of the various types of coaches in the NFL. They've been around, going where they need to, to not only stay employed but in hopes of getting recognition and advancement. Coaches of all shapes and sizes are constantly being hired, fired, or "stolen" by the competition. JMO, but I think the organizational/management structure, how the system is run, is probably basically the same within each NFL team. Variations obviously, but no great disparity. In other words, coaches, no matter what their job may be, aren't going into a situation flying blind and oblivious, but possess enough knowledge to adapt.

I liked what Kitchens said the other day when interviewed - "I expect these players to make me look great!" LOL

Dorsey had no shortage of excellent candidates for the job, including taking the 'safe' route and retaining Williams with Kitchens as OC, and yet he choose Kitchens outright. That tells me something right there. Again Dorsey has been involved in building some excellent football teams and has had some of the most successful coaches working under him. While this may be his first head coach hire, I suspect he went in knowing exactly what he was looking for and found it in Kitchens. I don't know if it will work out, but I feel better about it knowing who made the decision.

[WVRed]

In case you wanted an inside look at the dysfunction of the Browns, here it is:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25797430/inside-cleveland-browns-front-office-where-hope-history-collide

[kaldaniels]

In case you wanted an inside look at the dysfunction of the Browns, here it is:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25797430/inside-cleveland-browns-front-office-where-hope-history-collide

Please don’t strike me down for being “political” but I read that and all I could think about were it’s parallels to the White House.

[RiverRat13]

In case you wanted an inside look at the dysfunction of the Browns, here it is:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25797430/inside-cleveland-browns-front-office-where-hope-history-collide

Wowza. The Browns should be a sure thing to be really good the next five years. The only thing that can screw it up is the ownership.

[WVRed]

Wowza. The Browns should be a sure thing to be really good the next five years. The only thing that can screw it up is the ownership.

It’s amazing how the Haslams were minority owners of the Steelers and took nothing away from the Rooney’s.

I don’t know which is worse, Hue telling Dorsey and Haslam to “get the f out of my office” after being fired or searching for #dp and projecting porn for 20 minutes.

[puca]

I've said it before, but the biggest key to the Browns future success is Haslam staying out of the way. I'm not sure he can help himself, and if he can't, Dorsey will not stay long.

[GAC]

In case you wanted an inside look at the dysfunction of the Browns, here it is:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25797430/inside-cleveland-browns-front-office-where-hope-history-collide

Here's the thing. There ain't that much in that article's "timeline" that most avid Brown's fan didn't already know. It's like trying to hide stuff from a family member (LOL). For years the Browns languished under an owner (Randy Lerner) who was indifferent, had little motivation, made minimal effort, when it came to this team. His Dad died and he got "stuck" with them. Now what do I do? OK. Now we got an owner who is driven, has passion; but that also leads to impatience and other erratic behavior, because he expects results. That's probably how most got to be billionaires (LOL).

I can say this now, looking back, and since it appears this organization has a solid GM, a good management structure, and the team is turning it around ... Haslam was a minority owner of the Steelers. OK. That doesn't mean he knows the ropes on how to run a football team. So I have no problem with "classifying" those first few years as part of that learning process. All I care about is that it looks like he may have gotten it right. And if that was by accident I don't care there either (LOL).

Honestly. I could give a damn if the owner of my team is an A-hole. A lot are. All I care about is the product on the field. And there are soap operas going on in every other NFL team too. They're all dysfunctional.


I've said it before, but the biggest key to the Browns future success is Haslam staying out of the way. I'm not sure he can help himself, and if he can't, Dorsey will not stay long.

I agree. The biggest "fear" for me is the working relationship between Haslam and Dorsey. These are both two driven men. But one is methodical, the other emotional. They seem to be on the same page now; but will it last? Not something I can really worry about though. We'll see going forward.

I thought Ray Framer didn't come off too well in that article though. I defended Jackson, for the most part, while he was here. Just thought he was placed in a Kobayashi Maru (no-win) scenario by this management! (LOL).

But since his firing, and the more and more that has come out on him (including this article), all I'm going to say is I'm glad he's gone and good riddance! LOL

[GAC]

My wife has been getting on me to replace some of my T-shirts. You know how us men are when it comes to T-shirts. We like'em ratty and worn, like our underwear (LOL). That's when they're really broke in and comfortable. But I've bought several in the last month (Reds, Browns, Rock). Here's a couple I just got ...

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/5d7346_bbce063f0543413db383c93c46748ca3~mv2_d_2134 _2500_s_2.jpg/v1/fit/w_500,h_500,q_90/file.webp

This Beatle one is one of my favorites though ....

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1782/0667/products/DynamicImageHandler_d2ccf27b-f34d-459d-8900-c7973c49b487.png?v=1539057244

[WVRed]

Kareem Hunt signs with the Browns.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25973726/kareem-hunt-signs-browns

[Tuff Nut]

Kareem Hunt signs with the Browns.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25973726/kareem-hunt-signs-browns
That's a bit of a head scratcher, especially with Chubb as the #1... Guess having two good backs can't hurt tho....works well for NOLA... Two things to keep in mind tho, iirc he is from Cleveland area and he was drafted by Dorsey.

[Chip R]

That's a bit of a head scratcher, especially with Chubb as the #1... Guess having two good backs can't hurt tho....works well for NOLA... Two things to keep in mind tho, iirc he is from Cleveland area and he was drafted by Dorsey.

He's also going to be suspended for a while so it will help to have both.

[Kingspoint]

Maybe Goodell will see his being signed by the Browns as punishment enough and call it good.

;)

[redsfandan]

Hunt ending up with the Browns is surprising. I have to think that Dorsey might be thinking that the receivers group has some talent but isn't a strength so why not buy low on a guy that he's familiar with and that can help the Browns have a really good 60% run/40% pass mix in the last 2/3rds of the '19 season with options for trades if everything works out. That makes it easier to focus on other areas in the draft/free agency and not have to take an offensive skill player unless they are a bargain.

[GAC]

Hunt ending up with the Browns is surprising.

Not really. Dorsey is the guy who drafted him. And Dorsey has signed "troubled" players before... Tyreek Hill and Antonio Callaway. Dorsey said his previous relationship with Hunt during the draft process and in Kansas City was part of the reason he believes the running back “deserves a second chance.”

Hunt has expressed remorse, apologized to the woman, and is asking for a second chance. He should be given one IMO. But not without certain conditions, such as continuing to receive treatment and counseling, because he has other incidents of violence/assault. I'll give you that second chance, now it's up to you to prove yourself, that you're not that person. If not, U B Gone quick!

The investigation is still on-going, he's on the Commissioner's Exempt List which means he can't play; but most sources I read say his situation will be wrapped up by the start of free agency (March). He'll probably face a lengthy suspension to begin the '19 season. But the NFL hasn't been very consistent when it comes to dealing with these types of assault issues.

[GAC]

I certainly understand the importance within our society for greater awareness when it comes to domestic violence. And yes, it should sicken people, even make them angry. Good. It repulses me, and there is no reason whatsoever for a man to ever lay a hand on a woman. None.

But since this signing, I've frequented a few other sports forums including the Browns. Again. I can understand people's outrage. And if that person was unrepentant over what they did then he'd deserve people's scorn. But a person who comes forward and acknowledges their guilt, apologizes to the victim, asks for forgiveness, that person, IMO, deserves a second chance. And the purpose of that second chance is to give them the opportunity to prove they are being sincere.

But I'm listening to a lot of fans who think this guy is a piece of crap, will always be a piece of crap, and should be shot, hung, or thrown off a cliff! That's just a little harsh for my standards in this particular situation (LOL).

[Chip R]

Pilot Flying J is pulling its extensive advertising and sponsorship agreement with ESPN two years into a four-year deal, after ESPN.com ran a critical story on the inner workings of the Browns. Jimmy Haslam, who owns the Browns also is Pilot Flying J’s CEO.

https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2019/02/13/Marketing-and-Sponsorship/Pilot-Flying-J.aspx

[GAC]

Pilot Flying J is pulling its extensive advertising and sponsorship agreement with ESPN two years into a four-year deal, after ESPN.com ran a critical story on the inner workings of the Browns. Jimmy Haslam, who owns the Browns also is Pilot Flying J’s CEO.

https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2019/02/13/Marketing-and-Sponsorship/Pilot-Flying-J.aspx

The funny thing is ... we Brown fans already knew all that crap on Haslam (LOL). There weren't really any significant revelations in that article.

If the Browns continue to turn it around I'm sure Haslam will try to make his "presence" known around the NFL. But what's one more megalomaniac owner in the NFL? LOL

[Chip R]

The funny thing is ... we Brown fans already knew all that crap on Haslam (LOL). There weren't really any significant revelations in that article.

If the Browns continue to turn it around I'm sure Haslam will try to make his "presence" known around the NFL. But what's one more megalomaniac owner in the NFL? LOL

The point wasn't that Haslem is shady. The point was that he didn't like what ESPN wrote about the Browns in that article so he pulled his ads from their shows.

[Kingspoint]

The point wasn't that Haslem is shady. The point was that he didn't like what ESPN wrote about the Browns in that article so he pulled his ads from their shows.

Paul Allen fired hundreds of people who said negative things about the Blazers and when he couldn't fire them, he used his influence to have those who could fire them give them the boot.

Some people with power just can't handle criticism, usually ones who seriously lack social and people skills.

[puca]

Paul Allen fired hundreds of people who said negative things about the Blazers and when he couldn't fire them, he used his influence to have those who could fire them give them the boot.

Some people with power just can't handle criticism, usually ones who seriously lack social and people skills.

Being unable to handle criticism is not a trait that is unique to people in power. They just have more ability to lash back.

And it wasn't as much criticism as an expose; one whose sole purpose was apparently to show the Browns and Haslam in very negative light. While I don't like Haslam at all, I don't blame him at all for pulling his advertising and sponsorships after that. You don't bite the hand that feeds you.

[Kingspoint]

Being unable to handle criticism is not a trait that is unique to people in power. They just have more ability to lash back.

And it wasn't as much criticism as an expose; one whose sole purpose was apparently to show the Browns and Haslam in very negative light. While I don't like Haslam at all, I don't blame him at all for pulling his advertising and sponsorships after that. You don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Agree.

99% of today's journalists are poor excuses for journalists.

I'd pull my ad money, too, but I would never do the childish things Paul Allen did.

[GAC]

Being unable to handle criticism is not a trait that is unique to people in power. They just have more ability to lash back.

And it wasn't as much criticism as an expose; one whose sole purpose was apparently to show the Browns and Haslam in very negative light. While I don't like Haslam at all, I don't blame him at all for pulling his advertising and sponsorships after that. You don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Exactly. Was he suppose to do his Kevin Bacon impersonation, bend over, and say "Thank you sir! Can have another!" LOL

- - - Updated - - -

I have no issues with this whatsoever. The way it should be .... https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2019/02/11/john-dorsey-on-kareem-hunt-trust-has-to-be-earned-before-he-plays-for-browns/

[kaldaniels]

Being unable to handle criticism is not a trait that is unique to people in power. They just have more ability to lash back.

And it wasn't as much criticism as an expose; one whose sole purpose was apparently to show the Browns and Haslam in very negative light. While I don't like Haslam at all, I don't blame him at all for pulling his advertising and sponsorships after that. You don't bite the hand that feeds you.

I agree. Both organizations are (were) in bed with each other financially. Of course one side will be upset if the other publishes a "hit piece" on them. I mean as said, there really wasn't anything new in the piece, but it was put up to draw clicks by way of embarrassing the Browns. I'm sure that "branch" of ESPN didn't take the relationship into play, and it can be argued they shouldn't...but the article and the reason it was published sure would ruffle my feathers if I were Haslam. Nothing wrong with him saying "I'm out" after it was released.

[GAC]

I agree. Both organizations are (were) in bed with each other financially. Of course one side will be upset if the other publishes a "hit piece" on them. I mean as said, there really wasn't anything new in the piece, but it was put up to draw clicks by way of embarrassing the Browns. I'm sure that "branch" of ESPN didn't take the relationship into play, and it can be argued they shouldn't...but the article and the reason it was published sure would ruffle my feathers if I were Haslam. Nothing wrong with him saying "I'm out" after it was released.

And that's all it was ... a hit piece. Other then reporting scores, gathering stats, they're the equivalent of the National Enquirer IMO. And for some reason they love to report the dirt. They live for it, and they dig for it. And of course we live in a society today, and with the technology at our fingertips, so that we now have to know every little detail of every little thing of what's going on in people's lives, every little juicy detail, or else we're missing something!

[sorry ... old man rant] LOL

I've said it prior ... I'm not the biggest fan of Haslam. But I haven't been the biggest fan of the Brown's previous owners. If it turns this organization around from being a total embarrassment to one of respectability and a SUPER BOWL? That owner can be the biggest A-hole in the league! LOL

My only concern is the relationship between Haslam and Dorsey. So far, from what I have read, it's going OK. Haslam hasn't been sticking his nose in because he hasn't had to. He's got an experienced guy in there that knows what he's doing, and has gotten immediate (and quite impressive) results. Even the Haslams are smart enough not to mess with that.

But will it stay that way? Everyone knows there are a lot of owners who see their teams as "hobbies,toys" (LOL)

[Bob Sheed]

But will it stay that way? Everyone knows there are a lot of owners who see their teams as "hobbies,toys" (LOL)

https://images.mentalfloss.com/sites/default/files/castelinni_620.png

[Kingspoint]

Sure looks like this is the Browns' Division to dominate for the next decade.

[Sea Ray]

Sure looks like this is the Browns' Division to dominate for the next decade.

Never count the Steelers out. I've made that mistake before and later told myself not to do it again

[puca]

Never count the Steelers out. I've made that mistake before and later told myself not to do it again

No doubt. I won't discount the Ravens or the Bengals either (no matter how wacky things have looked from the outside, there is still a lot of talent on that roster). The Browns took a giant leap to respectability last year. The next step is much more difficult. I'm hopeful they can start a run where they are sitting at or near the top of the division every year, but there is a lot of work still to be done.

[Kingspoint]

OBJ a Brown. Wow!

[CTA513]

OBJ a Brown. Wow!

Browns get:
WR Odell Beckham

Giants get:
1st round pick (#17 overall)
3rd round pick (#95 overall)
Safety Jabrill peppers


https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/03/12/giants-get-first-and-third-round-picks-jabrill-peppers-for-beckham/

[RedTeamGo!]

Browns get:
WR Odell Beckham

Giants get:
1st round pick (#17 overall)
3rd round pick (#95 overall)
Safety Jabrill peppers


https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/03/12/giants-get-first-and-third-round-picks-jabrill-peppers-for-beckham/

What a steal by the Browns. And the addition by subtraction of Peppers is the cherry on top. Worst player on the defense.

[Kingspoint]

In C.J.'s post-game interview (he personally outscored the LAC in the 4th 23-20), he spent most of it gushing all over about his Cleveland Browns and then, basically, dropped the mic (he was a journalism major at Lehigh). He's excited.

- - - Updated - - -

Their Defensive Line rebuild has been A+.

[puca]

I know I should be elated, but instead I'm a bit worried about this move. On paper the Browns just became one of the most talented offensive teams around, however AB showed how disruptive an unhappy player can be and I'm not sure I can see OBJ being all that happy in Cleveland.

[RedTeamGo!]

I know I should be elated, but instead I'm a bit worried about this move. On paper the Browns just became one of the most talented offensive teams around, however AB showed how disruptive an unhappy player can be and I'm not sure I can see OBJ being all that happy in Cleveland.

You’re crazy

[WVRed]

You’re crazy

Yep.

Going from Eli Manning to Baker Mayfield. Having his best friend opposite him on the field. The Browns are built to win now but I wouldn’t be surprised if they screw it up.

[puca]

You’re crazy

I'm concerned about the deal, not upset about it. Like Antonio Brown, when OBJ is happy he is one of the best receivers in the business. Also like Brown, when he is unhappy he can be a disruptive presence and I can easily see him trying to force his way out. Let's face the truth, Cleveland is one of the least glamorous landing spots for a professional athlete. I doubt the trade helps OBJ from a marketing standpoint, and make no mistake that he's aware of that.

[bucksfan2]

On paper the Browns made one heck of a move. I am curious to see how everything meshes together. Odell has always seemed more bluster than production in his career. Will he and Baker be able to share the spotlight in Cleveland?

I am interested it seeing what Mayfield's development looks like this season. He showed flashes of being a good QB last season, but if you look at his games, he did most of his damage against bad teams.

If I am a Cleveland fan I am excited about this upcoming season. As an outsider, they look dangerous, but I think there needs to be a little bit of caution.

[Todd Gack]

I'm concerned about the deal, not upset about it. Like Antonio Brown, when OBJ is happy he is one of the best receivers in the business. Also like Brown, when he is unhappy he can be a disruptive presence and I can easily see him trying to force his way out. Let's face the truth, Cleveland is one of the least glamorous landing spots for a professional athlete. I doubt the trade helps OBJ from a marketing standpoint, and make no mistake that he's aware of that.

Believe it or not, the Browns are becoming a 'sexy option' in the NFL. He's fully marketable in Cleveland.

[Chip R]

Let's face the truth, Cleveland is one of the least glamorous landing spots for a professional athlete. I doubt the trade helps OBJ from a marketing standpoint, and make no mistake that he's aware of that.

You're not wrong but the NFL is different. You can be a good/great player on a team that's not in a big market and still get commercials and be on talk shows. During football season, watch the commercials featuring professional athletes. The vast majority of athletes in those commercials are NFL players. It's not just the guys from New York or Dallas or LA. Plus OBJ is already a known quantity from when he was with the Giants. If LeBron can be a star in CLE, so can OBJ. Plus there is less media scrutiny in CLE than there is in NYC. His every move won't be watched and scrutinized like it has been.

[bucksfan2]

You're not wrong but the NFL is different. You can be a good/great player on a team that's not in a big market and still get commercials and be on talk shows. During football season, watch the commercials featuring professional athletes. The vast majority of athletes in those commercials are NFL players. It's not just the guys from New York or Dallas or LA. Plus OBJ is already a known quantity from when he was with the Giants. If LeBron can be a star in CLE, so can OBJ. Plus there is less media scrutiny in CLE than there is in NYC. His every move won't be watched and scrutinized like it has been.

The Browns will absolutely be a media circus this season.

[Chip R]

The Browns will absolutely be a media circus this season.

In training camp, perhaps. But the national media isn't going to camp out in CLE the entire season.

[RedsBaron]

You're not wrong but the NFL is different. You can be a good/great player on a team that's not in a big market and still get commercials and be on talk shows. During football season, watch the commercials featuring professional athletes. The vast majority of athletes in those commercials are NFL players. It's not just the guys from New York or Dallas or LA. Plus OBJ is already a known quantity from when he was with the Giants. If LeBron can be a star in CLE, so can OBJ. Plus there is less media scrutiny in CLE than there is in NYC. His every move won't be watched and scrutinized like it has been.

The two NFL players whom you see most often in commercials are probably Aaron Rodgers, who plays in Green Bay, and retired Peyton Manning, who played in Indy and in Denver. They are/were QBs, not receivers, but playing in relatively smaller NFL cities didn't hurt their ability to get commercials and talk show gigs. If you a MLB player you need to be in a big market, as Mike Trout demonstrates. That isn't as important in the NFL.

[RedTeamGo!]

On paper the Browns made one heck of a move. I am curious to see how everything meshes together. Odell has always seemed more bluster than production in his career. Will he and Baker be able to share the spotlight in Cleveland?

I am interested it seeing what Mayfield's development looks like this season. He showed flashes of being a good QB last season, but if you look at his games, he did most of his damage against bad teams.

If I am a Cleveland fan I am excited about this upcoming season. As an outsider, they look dangerous, but I think there needs to be a little bit of caution.

Wait. A rookie QB was better against bad teams? No way.

[BuckeyeRed27]

I'm thinking about switching to the Browns. I live in Cleveland now. The Bengals haven't brought me an ounce of joy my entire life. I likely won't live in Cincinnati again. The Bengals just gave like $25M to one of the worst linemen in the league. The Browns just traded for OBJ and appear to have actual adults running the football operation now.

[Kingspoint]

Your AFC North Champion Cleveland Browns.


That's their floor every year for the next five years.

[CTA513]

I'm thinking about switching to the Browns. I live in Cleveland now. The Bengals haven't brought me an ounce of joy my entire life. I likely won't live in Cincinnati again. The Bengals just gave like $25M to one of the worst linemen in the league. The Browns just traded for OBJ and appear to have actual adults running the football operation now.


:laugh:

[Kingspoint]

I've never hated the Browns, having never lived in Cincinnati. In fact, I rooted for the Browns and the Colts the first year they switched to the AFC, but that dissipated quickly as it was the same season I decided to be a Bengals' fan. I have given a lifetime of support to the Bengals...50 years, so I will make my switch to another franchise for the next 40 years after some careful thought.

There are a lot of candidates:

Raiders were until they went stupid and gave Gruden that contract.

Eagles have always been my favorite NFL/NFC franchise, so they are my leading candidate.

Cleveland, as they are named after Paul Brown, whom I respect a lot, with Cleveland being an original football city like Philadelphia.

Minnesota, as I really like Zimmer and have always liked the Vikings.

Definitely not Seattle...was force-fed them for too many years and it ruined the franchise for me.

The Chargers...just a lot to always like about them, plus the West Coast team I like the most.

The Jaguars because I like their Owner.

[Kingspoint]

Cleveland gets a fresh Kareem Hunt midway through the season. They were basically handed a free roster spot to stash an All-Pro game-changer.

Wow!

It just keeps trending upwards for the Browns.

[RedTeamGo!]

I'm thinking about switching to the Browns. I live in Cleveland now. The Bengals haven't brought me an ounce of joy my entire life. I likely won't live in Cincinnati again. The Bengals just gave like $25M to one of the worst linemen in the league. The Browns just traded for OBJ and appear to have actual adults running the football operation now.

Where did you end up moving in the Cleveland area?

[BuckeyeRed27]

Where did you end up moving in the Cleveland area?

I’m in the West Flats by Ohio City. Love it so far.

[Kingspoint]

OBJ is here for Day 1.

Browns' camp is 2 weeks before the Giants because they have a new HC. If OBJ had plans, he canceled them to embrace the Browns and his new teammates. That's a strong statement.

This is the Browns' Division...head and shoulders much more talented than BAL and PIT. (Cincy is a joke like they've never been before and that's saying a lot).

Wouldn't surprise me if CLE went 6-0 in Division play and went 6-4 among the rest for a 12-4 regular season.

[TeamSelig]

Browns fans have suffered enough, i’m Low key rooting for them to do well

[Kingspoint]

From Rotoworld with Rotoworld comments:

Browns RB Kareem Hunt (groin) was cleared to practice Saturday.

Hunt missed the first eight practices of training camp with a groin injury but returned to the field just in time to participate in the official Orange & Brown Scrimmage. He remains suspended for the first eight weeks, but can continue participating in team drills at training camp.

SOURCE: Mary Kay Cabot on Twitter

[Kingspoint]

From Rotoworld with Rotoworld comments:

The Chronicle-Telegram reports Antonio Callaway has a high-ankle sprain.

This puts his availability for the rest of the preseason in doubt. Callaway may now not be able to practice until his four-week suspension is up. It's an obvious blow to his redraft value, though Callaway has enough talent to make an impact when he returns. Rashard Higgins is the favorite to fill in for Callaway.

SOURCE: Scott Petrak on Twitter

[Kingspoint]

From Rotoworld with Rotoworld comments:

Browns coach Freddie Kitchens said OL Eric Kush is the starting right guard "as we speak."

Kitchens added that the team hasn't seen recently acquired OL Wyatt Teller on the field just yet and "there's always going to be competition." As it stands, Kush is slated to start Week 1 given 2018 second-rounder Austin Corbett's lackluster performance throughout camp. Odds are Teller poaches the job by Week 2, but the Browns' o-line remains a looming concern with only two above-average starters (RG Joel Bitonio. C J.C. Tretter) on hand following the team's trade of All-Pro Kevin Zeitler this offseason.

SOURCE: Mary Kay Cabot on Twitter

[phatknuckle]

Definitely worried about the Brown's offensive line. The fact that Baker releases the ball quickly definitely helps, but I'm not sure Dorsey did enough in that area. Still expecting a good year from them, but I've tempered my hope of a deep playoff run. However, considering they were win less just two seasons ago, making the playoffs or even being in the hunt would be a major accomplishment. Their defense should be stout, and their offense has the weapons to be explosive, but the offensive line is troublesome.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Definitely worried about the Brown's offensive line. The fact that Baker releases the ball quickly definitely helps, but I'm not sure Dorsey did enough in that area. Still expecting a good year from them, but I've tempered my hope of a deep playoff run. However, considering they were win less just two seasons ago, making the playoffs or even being in the hunt would be a major accomplishment. Their defense should be stout, and their offense has the weapons to be explosive, but the offensive line is troublesome.

It'll be better due to Beckham.

He's used to working quick slants in front of a porous line. The Giants may have the worst line over the past five years of anyone in football.

Too, to be talking about the playoffs two years after a winless season is ridiculously fun.

[GAC]

Are ya'll done predicting how my Browns are gonna do this year? LOL

I can say with pride (and ignorance) that I've always been a Brown's. I've been run through the emotional gauntlet, but have hung tough for 54 years!

[Kingspoint]

That Offensive Line looks just fine.

- - - Updated - - -

Great first drive for the Vikings.

[redsfandan]

The Browns are making way too many penalties.

[North]

Browns aren't matching the hype today.

[phatknuckle]

Browns aren't matching the hype today.

That was certainly disappointing, but I won't read too much into the first game of the season. The team has a lot of new parts to mesh together. They played poorly in pretty much every phase, but on the bright side, there is a lot of room for improvement. I still maintain their offensive line isn't up to snuff though.

[KoryMac5]

That was certainly disappointing, but I won't read too much into the first game of the season. The team has a lot of new parts to mesh together. They played poorly in pretty much every phase, but on the bright side, there is a lot of room for improvement. I still maintain their offensive line isn't up to snuff though.

Isn't the preseason and training camp about meshing...Browns got absolutely mauled today, no other way to put it.

[redsfandan]

Browns aren't matching the hype today.

There was too much hype, anyway. They're a team on the way up but this season is about having a winning season, being a playoff contender, and improving so they can (hopefully) be a Super Bowl contender next year.

[Redsfaithful]

Score was a surprise.

[phatknuckle]

Isn't the preseason and training camp about meshing...Browns got absolutely mauled today, no other way to put it.

Most starters don't play that many preseason snaps. They were down to their 3rd string tackle (a guy they just acquired this week) before halftime and before the game got out of hand. Way too many penalties put them behind and they couldn't dig out of the hole. Baker looked out of sync most of the game. Too early to say whether it is a regression or rust. Not panicking yet.

[phatknuckle]

Score was a surprise.

Despite all the penalties it was close until Baker started forcing things. It got out of hand quickly.

[North]

There was too much hype, anyway. They're a team on the way up but this season is about having a winning season, being a playoff contender, and improving so they can (hopefully) be a Super Bowl contender next year.

The league scheduled a lot of prime-time appearances for them this year. They did that in 2008 following their 10 and 6 record in 2007. The Browns ended up 4 and 12.

We shall see.

[GAC]

There was too much hype, anyway. They're a team on the way up but this season is about having a winning season, being a playoff contender, and improving so they can (hopefully) be a Super Bowl contender next year.

Yep. Definitely reason for optimism and enthusiasm by Brown fans moving forward. Especially with further off-season improvements. And while an improved team last year, I don't see them jumping from 7-8-1 to the Super Bowl this year. While not out of the realm of impossibility, I have not bought into the hype.

I was at the Red's game yesterday, so I didn't get to watch the Browns. But I was trying to follow on my phone. Penalties, and a QB trying to do too much, put it all on his shoulders in forcing the issue when it wasn't there ( 3 INTs), was the reason they got walloped IMO. But he was also playing behind a make-shift O-line that was down it's two top left tackles.

When's the last time the Browns won an opener? LOL

Maybe this loss will bring Brown fans off cloud 9 and a little bit back to earth.

Pittsburgh got crushed by the Pats 33-3, so yesterday wasn't a total loss (LOL)

[Sea Ray]

The question is did it bring the players off cloud 9? Post game interviews with Mayfield and Landry show players that are still awfully cocky

[phatknuckle]

The question is did it bring the players off cloud 9? Post game interviews with Mayfield and Landry show players that are still awfully cocky

Personally I'm glad their still confident/cocky. Not sure that's a bad thing. Kitchens is a non-nonsense head coach, so I'm sure he's read the riot act to the team. Their offensive line is a mess, and I don't really see that going away, but next week will tell a lot about this team.

[phatknuckle]

Yep. Definitely reason for optimism and enthusiasm by Brown fans moving forward. Especially with further off-season improvements. And while an improved team last year, I don't see them jumping from 7-8-1 to the Super Bowl this year. While not out of the realm of impossibility, I have not bought into the hype.

I was at the Red's game yesterday, so I didn't get to watch the Browns. But I was trying to follow on my phone. Penalties, and a QB trying to do too much, put it all on his shoulders in forcing the issue when it wasn't there ( 3 INTs), was the reason they got walloped IMO. But he was also playing behind a make-shift O-line that was down it's two top left tackles.

When's the last time the Browns won an opener? LOL

Maybe this loss will bring Brown fans off cloud 9 and a little bit back to earth.

Pittsburgh got crushed by the Pats 33-3, so yesterday wasn't a total loss (LOL)

That is pretty much what happened. They looked unstoppable on their first drive, but penalties, questionable play calls and poor execution stalled their offense for most the rest of the first half. Meanwhile penalties and big plays allowed the Titans to snatch the lead. Towards the end of the first half the starting tackle was ejected (rightfully so) for kicking a Titan player. Quickly after his backup went down with an injury. Even with a makeshift line the Browns started the second half fairly strong, but again penalties killed them. The Browns were right in the game until early in the forth quarter when the Browns defense gave up another huge play. Then Mayfield started forcing his throws and things snowballed from there. But bottom line, it's hard to overcome 18 penalties for 182 yards, most of which came when the game was still in doubt.

[Sea Ray]

Personally I'm glad their still confident/cocky. Not sure that's a bad thing. Kitchens is a non-nonsense head coach, so I'm sure he's read the riot act to the team. Their offensive line is a mess, and I don't really see that going away, but next week will tell a lot about this team.

I'll put it this way...the comments from those two guys didn't resemble anything that we'd hear from the Patriots after a loss and Jarvis Landry was downright rude

[GAC]

Their offensive line is a mess

They were playing without two starters, and Robinson getting ejected in the second quarter didn't help things.

[GAC]

I'll put it this way...the comments from those two guys didn't resemble anything that we'd hear from the Patriots after a loss and Jarvis Landry was downright rude

I've never put too much weight on any players post-game comments.

[North]

No Sam Darnold for the MNF game...

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/sam-darnold-injury-what-to-expect-from-backup-trevor-siemian-how-long-jets-starting-quarterback-will-be-out/

Jets stunk last week against BUF. After 4 Bills turnovers, all they could muster was 16 points, and BUF scored 17 straight points for the win.

[GAC]

Watching that game last night, even though we won, showed me this is a young team showing direction, but still coming together as a unit. Work to be done. I think Mayfield is a helluva a talent. He threw some rocket passes last night that were right there. Impressive. Unfortunately, IMO, he was sailing far more passes (you needed a Beckham to catch some), and was making some poor choices, forcing the ball into areas downfield. And at times it wasn't necessary because he had wide-open options in front of him. On that INT in the 2nd half Chubbs was standing wide open under coverage for a sizable gain. I came out of the chair on that one (LOL). Mayfield needs more experience (maturity).

What can one say about Beckham? He is what he is. Just got a little tired last night with the broadcast's emphasis all about Beckham (and Mayfield). IMO, this Brown's team has a lot of talent on the offensive side of the ball. I think the score last night - especially vs a Jet's team that is not very good (and decimated with injury) - would have been higher with better play calling by the Browns (Kitchen). First off, RB Chubbs needs to get more then 18 carries. He also had 4 rec/32 yds. He's a helluva talent IMO, and a workhorse. Because of the Jets secondary's "fear" of Beckham, there was a lot of open territory under coverage. IMO, they didn't take advantage (flaunt) that as much as they could have with players like Chubb and Johnson. And one pass to a TE (Harris). What happened to Njoku?

It's only the second game, but I hope the offensive scheme for this team this year is not simply the "Mayfield-Beckham Show". Not with the talent we have on offense on this team. I think the Brown's will have a solid receiving core, and tandem in Beckham/Landry. But that threat can also open up other avenues offensively - like your running game. It can't always be about Mayfield scrambling out of the pocket and launching balls down-field in Beckham's direction, and in coverage, hoping he makes a one-handed catch.

I like Mayfield's competitiveness and cockiness. But he can't allow that to put everything on his shoulders, that it's all about him. Because it ain't IMO.

This team is just rough around the edges right now. But their next 5 games are vs teams that are currently 2-0 .... Rams (home), Ravens and 49ers (away), Seahawks (home), and then to Foxboro to face the Patriots. Tough early schedule.

[phatknuckle]

Watching that game last night, even though we won, showed me this is a young team showing direction, but still coming together as a unit. Work to be done. I think Mayfield is a helluva a talent. He threw some rocket passes last night that were right there. Impressive. Unfortunately, IMO, he was sailing far more passes (you needed a Beckham to catch some), and was making some poor choices, forcing the ball into areas downfield. And at times it wasn't necessary because he had wide-open options in front of him. On that INT in the 2nd half Chubbs was standing wide open under coverage for a sizable gain. I came out of the chair on that one (LOL). Mayfield needs more experience (maturity).

What can one say about Beckham? He is what he is. Just got a little tired last night with the broadcast's emphasis all about Beckham (and Mayfield). IMO, this Brown's team has a lot of talent on the offensive side of the ball. I think the score last night - especially vs a Jet's team that is not very good (and decimated with injury) - would have been higher with better play calling by the Browns (Kitchen). First off, RB Chubbs needs to get more then 18 carries. He also had 4 rec/32 yds. He's a helluva talent IMO, and a workhorse. Because of the Jets secondary's "fear" of Beckham, there was a lot of open territory under coverage. IMO, they didn't take advantage (flaunt) that as much as they could have with players like Chubb and Johnson. And one pass to a TE (Harris). What happened to Njoku?

It's only the second game, but I hope the offensive scheme for this team this year is not simply the "Mayfield-Beckham Show". Not with the talent we have on offense on this team. I think the Brown's will have a solid receiving core, and tandem in Beckham/Landry. But that threat can also open up other avenues offensively - like your running game. It can't always be about Mayfield scrambling out of the pocket and launching balls down-field in Beckham's direction, and in coverage, hoping he makes a one-handed catch.

I like Mayfield's competitiveness and cockiness. But he can't allow that to put everything on his shoulders, that it's all about him. Because it ain't IMO.

This team is just rough around the edges right now. But their next 5 games are vs teams that are currently 2-0 .... Rams (home), Ravens and 49ers (away), Seahawks (home), and then to Foxboro to face the Patriots. Tough early schedule.

Baker is definitely struggling to regain form from last year. Not terribly worried yet, partly because of lack of preseason work with the entire first team offense and partly because if anyone knows how to keep Baker off balance it would be Gregg Williams. I also agree the play calling has been off so far this season. Offensive line is still my main concern.

Defensively they looked really good, but it's hard to judge because of how bad the Jets are.

Rams will be a great test. Baker (and Kitchens) will need to take a big leap forward this week or Baker take a lot of punishment. Should also find out how good this defensive really is.

[North]

Injuries piling up for the Browns fo the upcoming Sunday night game against the Rams...

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/09/how-will-injuries-impact-the-browns-berea-report-video.html

[Kingspoint]

So, what?...11 wins, 12 wins for the Browns?

[phatknuckle]

So, what?...11 wins, 12 wins for the Browns?

I'd say 10 tops. Hopefully enough to get into the playoffs.

[North]

So, what?...11 wins, 12 wins for the Browns?

My guess was 10.

[RichRed]

The Browns are an entertaining team but looking at their schedule, I’m thinking 8-8, maybe 9-7.

[GAC]

IMO, the next five games will be the most telling.

[Kingspoint]

IMO, the next five games will be the most telling.

No. Every game is a new experience for this franchise. Every one of them has its own obstacles and proving ground to overcome.

- - - Updated - - -

There aren't very many teams worth watching in the NFL right now. The Browns are definitely one of them, though.

[North]

Those CLE uniforms are irritating.

[Kingspoint]

Those CLE uniforms are irritating.

They remind me of the shanties I used to see still under the bridges in the early 60's that were originally built at the turn of the century and the modern bridges and turnpikes and offramps were built around them.

[GAC]

Those CLE uniforms are irritating.

No they're not. They're ugly! LOL

[GAC]

I like Freddie Kitchens. But he's learning just as this young team is. But put this one on Kitchens IMO. If there is anything I hope this young coach is learning, through these first three games, is how key Chubbs is to this offense. But also how, and when, to utilize him (LOL) .....

Not on the opponent's 40 yd line, and it's 4th and 9. Not a bad call (as Kitchen admits), but a stupid call. Then is when you do attempt a pass. Gave the Rams good field possession, and they got 3 pts off it.

But IMO, this was the biggest bone-head blunder last night for Kitchens ....

Mayfield drove the team down to the Ram's 4 yard line, first and goal, 43 seconds left. You have 4 downs and 3 TO's left. Where's Chubbs? Not once did they attempt a run. And the game ends on a desperation pass (INT) by Mayfield.

Chubbs ... 96 yds/23 ATTs = 4.1 yds/carry.

It's late in the game, defenses are tired. You gotta workhorse, a rising star (IMO) at RB, and you don't give him the ball once down there? Inexcusable IMO. They should have pounded it with Chubbs. Hope you learned something here Freddy.

Overall? I think both of these defenses made it difficult on the opposition (QB). But the Browns were playing without several starters on D, and limited the NFC Champions, who put points on the board, to just 20 pts. They kept their team in the game for sure. Garrett had another great game. Unfortunately, our offense could not capitalize either on those opportunities.

But that game-ending series still sticks in my craw.

Mayfield did alright IMO. There were times when the Browns needed yardage, needed a play, and he stepped up. That impressed me, showed me something.

Mayfield's a leader, and a competitor. I understand that. But it can't be all about him, everything on his shoulders. Especially when it comes to making the right call in various game-time decisions.

The Browns are probably the second best team in the AFC North (for what it's worth). We'll find out next week as the Browns travel to Baltimore. They split with the Ravens last year, very close games, low margin of victory.

[North]

But IMO, this was the biggest bone-head blunder last night for Kitchens ....

Mayfield drove the team down to the Ram's 4 yard line, first and goal, 43 seconds left. You have 4 downs and 3 TO's left. Where's Chubbs? Not once did they attempt a run. And the game ends on a desperation pass (INT) by Mayfield.

Chubbs ... 96 yds/23 ATTs = 4.1 yds/carry.

It's late in the game, defenses are tired. You gotta workhorse, a rising star (IMO) at RB, and you don't give him the ball once down there? Inexcusable IMO. They should have pounded it with Chubbs. Hope you learned something here Freddy.
.

That was right out of the Marvin Lewis playbook.

[Betterread]

I looked at the Browns schedule and I can’t believe it. On paper, you play only 2 good teams, the Rams and Patriots. The browns have a chance in every other game. They could win 13 games if they play “well”. Not great, just “well”.
Of all the NFC teams, you avoid the cowboys, bears, eagles, packers, saints and vikings and you play a lot of mediocre NFC teams You don’t have to play the chargers or chiefs and they are in your conference. Browns fans have been given a tremendous gift by the league.

[phatknuckle]

I like Freddie Kitchens. But he's learning just as this young team is. But put this one on Kitchens IMO. If there is anything I hope this young coach is learning, through these first three games, is how key Chubbs is to this offense. But also how, and when, to utilize him (LOL) .....

Not on the opponent's 40 yd line, and it's 4th and 9. Not a bad call (as Kitchen admits), but a stupid call. Then is when you do attempt a pass. Gave the Rams good field possession, and they got 3 pts off it.

But IMO, this was the biggest bone-head blunder last night for Kitchens ....

Mayfield drove the team down to the Ram's 4 yard line, first and goal, 43 seconds left. You have 4 downs and 3 TO's left. Where's Chubbs? Not once did they attempt a run. And the game ends on a desperation pass (INT) by Mayfield.

Chubbs ... 96 yds/23 ATTs = 4.1 yds/carry.

It's late in the game, defenses are tired. You gotta workhorse, a rising star (IMO) at RB, and you don't give him the ball once down there? Inexcusable IMO. They should have pounded it with Chubbs. Hope you learned something here Freddy.

Overall? I think both of these defenses made it difficult on the opposition (QB). But the Browns were playing without several starters on D, and limited the NFC Champions, who put points on the board, to just 20 pts. They kept their team in the game for sure. Garrett had another great game. Unfortunately, our offense could not capitalize either on those opportunities.

But that game-ending series still sticks in my craw.

Mayfield did alright IMO. There were times when the Browns needed yardage, needed a play, and he stepped up. That impressed me, showed me something.

Mayfield's a leader, and a competitor. I understand that. But it can't be all about him, everything on his shoulders. Especially when it comes to making the right call in various game-time decisions.

The Browns are probably the second best team in the AFC North (for what it's worth). We'll find out next week as the Browns travel to Baltimore. They split with the Ravens last year, very close games, low margin of victory.

That was very disappointing. I agree that not using Chubbs in the last series was a huge mistake. Kitchens certainly needs to do better with the play calling and Baker needs to make quicker decisions. The offensive linemen are just not good enough to sustain their block without grabbing on for dear life. There is just no time to run through many progressions. The utter mess that is this offensive line is the biggest problem, but its up to Freddy and Baker to compensate it. I have to put some blame on Dorsey for not investing in the offensive line.

The defense remains impressive however. Despite having a patchwork secondary, they held together pretty good against a high powered offense. So there is that.

[GAC]

I looked at the Browns schedule and I can’t believe it. On paper, you play only 2 good teams, the Rams and Patriots. The browns have a chance in every other game. They could win 13 games if they play “well”. Not great, just “well”.
Of all the NFC teams, you avoid the cowboys, bears, eagles, packers, saints and vikings and you play a lot of mediocre NFC teams You don’t have to play the chargers or chiefs and they are in your conference. Browns fans have been given a tremendous gift by the league.

On paper, their schedule is weak (only play two good teams), and a tremendous gift from the league? I don't see that. At least not at this stage of the season, because we don't really know who are legit and who may be pretenders. Besides the Rams, over the next month they face .... 49ers (3-0), Ravens (2-1), Seahawks (2-1), Patriots (3-0). They then face the Steelers (never discount this game), and then the Bills (3-0).

The Browns have a pretty tough schedule for the first half of the season IMO.

[GAC]

That was very disappointing. I agree that not using Chubbs in the last series was a huge mistake. Kitchens certainly needs to do better with the play calling and Baker needs to make quicker decisions. The offensive linemen are just not good enough to sustain their block without grabbing on for dear life. There is just no time to run through many progressions. The utter mess that is this offensive line is the biggest problem, but its up to Freddy and Baker to compensate it. I have to put some blame on Dorsey for not investing in the offensive line.

The offensive line's play needs to be better. But I don't think it's performance overall has been terrible. Chubbs is averaging 4 yds/carry. But this O-line has been in flux ever since they lost Thomas IMO (LOL). Then they traded away Pro Bowl RG Kevin Zeitler. But they stil have some talent on this O-line, and they did add depth in the off-season ... https://nflmocks.com/2019/05/21/cleveland-browns-offensive-line/

The problem has been that even that depth has taken a hit because too many of those guys are suffering injuries in the early goings. And while we have "depth" in the sense we got guys who have experience at Guard or Tackle, they're having to play (fill) one of those positions and it's not where they're best comfortable. Building an offensive line is a tricky, and difficult thing IMO. Playing together consistently, knowing what your job is, is what builds a cohesive unit. Right now? - this week you're at RT, next week we need you to fill in at LG, or maybe Center.

And finally .... I think most O-lines would have a tough task protecting a QB like Mayfield, who likes to scramble out of the pocket and go all over the place. Hard to keep track of the guy. I'm sure in the huddle his line is asking him - "Which side you going to? Right or Left?" LOL

[Bob Sheed]

I'm sure in the huddle his line is asking him - "Which side you going to? Right or Left?" LOL

Mayfield: "Neither, if you guys could keep a clean pocket for two $%@#! seconds..."

[Sea Ray]

The Browns obsession with Kitchens is strange. Why choose him over McCarthy?

It's also interesting that this NFL head coaching search has more turned into men interviewing employers rather than the other way around. That's the opposite of how it usually goes

As a Bengal fan, I'm pleased with this hire...although I have little confidence my front office will do any better

I caught an awful lot of flack for this statement here. I stand by it and it'll be fun to see how long Browns fans continue to defend this hire with all their heart and soul. I got attacked for days for this comment

[Kingspoint]

I caught an awful lot of flack for this statement here. I stand by it and it'll be fun to see how long Browns fans continue to defend this hire with all their heart and soul. I got attacked for days for this comment

Because McCarthy is an idiot. That's why you got a lot of flack.

[Kingspoint]

From Rotoworld with Rotoworld comments:

Denzel Ward (hamstring) is questionable for Week 4 against the Ravens.

It's surprising Ward wasn't ruled out. Perhaps he'll test out his injured hamstring in pregame warmups and see if he can give it a go. Even with the questionable tag, it's hard to envision him playing after missing the past two weeks of practice. The Browns allowed 100-yard games to Brandin Cooks and Cooper Kupp with Ward and Greedy Williams (hamstring) both absent in Week 3.

SOURCE: Scott Petrak on Twitter

[phatknuckle]

I caught an awful lot of flack for this statement here. I stand by it and it'll be fun to see how long Browns fans continue to defend this hire with all their heart and soul. I got attacked for days for this comment

Personally, I didn't love the hire at the time, but I have faith in the man that made the hire. The fact that Dorsey has history with McCarthy and still didn't seriously consider him for the job says it all. I think Kitchens play calling has been disappointing so far, but it has only been 3 games. Being a Browns fan I've learned to be patient, I'm not going to judge or call for a coach's head after 3 games or even half a season.

The Browns have a rough road immediately ahead so unless they can pull off some upsets, I'm sure you'll be back taking more digs at the Browns and their fans.

- - - Updated - - -


From Rotoworld with Rotoworld comments:

Denzel Ward (hamstring) is questionable for Week 4 against the Ravens.

It's surprising Ward wasn't ruled out. Perhaps he'll test out his injured hamstring in pregame warmups and see if he can give it a go. Even with the questionable tag, it's hard to envision him playing after missing the past two weeks of practice. The Browns allowed 100-yard games to Brandin Cooks and Cooper Kupp with Ward and Greedy Williams (hamstring) both absent in Week 3.

SOURCE: Scott Petrak on Twitter

This is nothing more than the Browns not wanting to tip their hand. I highly doubt there is any plan for Ward to play in the game.

[Kingspoint]

Personally,...

Why does your post count never increase?

[phatknuckle]

Why does your post count never increase?

I have no idea. Maybe I'm special?

[Sea Ray]

Because McCarthy is an idiot. That's why you got a lot of flack.

I don't think Browns fans came out to diss McCarthy. My guess is they don't give a rip about him. In fact he was rarely mentioned.

[GAC]

I caught an awful lot of flack for this statement here. I stand by it and it'll be fun to see how long Browns fans continue to defend this hire with all their heart and soul. I got attacked for days for this comment

So are you going to do this year like you did the last couple on this thread?.... every time the head coach or QB makes a bad decision, whatever, you're going to quote yourself so you can say I told you so! LOL

[dubc47834]

Why does your post count never increase?

Post counts only increase when posting in the ORG.

[North]

Heh - Beckham has a nice arm!

[GAC]

I'd say Kitchens went into this one with a solid game plan. You shut down Beckham ... Oops, there's Landry (8 receptions 167 yds). Over 500 yards total offense. And my man Chubbs rolled!

Lamarr who?

[North]

I'd say Kitchens went into this one with a solid game plan. You shut down Beckham ... Oops, there's Landry (8 receptions 167 yds). Over 500 yards total offense. And my man Chubbs rolled!

Lamarr who?

Ozzie who? :D

[phatknuckle]

I'd say Kitchens went into this one with a solid game plan. You shut down Beckham ... Oops, there's Landry (8 receptions 167 yds). Over 500 yards total offense. And my man Chubbs rolled!

Lamarr who?

The type of game the Browns fans were waiting for. Baker Mayfield and the entire offense looked poised and in sync the entire game. And the defense, despite playing without 3/4 of their starting defensive backs frustrated the Ravens. Despite his pedestrian numbers, I came away impressed with Lamar. He is a special athlete and is growing as a quarterback.

[texasdave]

Why does your post count never increase?

You never forget your first post.

- - - Updated - - -


Post counts only increase when posting in the ORG.

This is not true with me. Test it out yourself.

[Sea Ray]

So are you going to do this year like you did the last couple on this thread?.... every time the head coach or QB makes a bad decision, whatever, you're going to quote yourself so you can say I told you so! LOL

Every time? How many bad decisions did he make in the first 3 games of this season? How many times have I come here to say I told you so?

[Redsfaithful]

Good win. Very impressive to give up 6 yards per carry and still blow the other team out.

I think everyone got out over their skis a little bit with the Ravens. Blowing out the Dolphins and beating the Cardinals is better than the alternative, but it's also not telling us much.

[kaldaniels]

Kitchens has been head coach for 4 games. I think he overthought things in the Rams game. Heck of a game plan today though. I’ll take 2-2 and first place. Too early to either gloat or have regret.

[Kingspoint]

Kitchens has been head coach for 4 games. I think he overthought things in the Rams game. Heck of a game plan today though. I’ll take 2-2 and first place. Too early to either gloat or have regret.

The most impressive thing is bouncing back on the road against a traditionally tough division opponent, and doing it in impressive fashion. That's a double-impression, I guess.

[GAC]

Every time? How many bad decisions did he make in the first 3 games of this season?

You tell me. Did you watch all three games? You pull up one of your quotes from last season ... and after only three games (1-2 record) ... in a silly attempt to say "I told you so" and somehow try to gloat (LOL). That's all this is about... "They hired the wrong guy, and you all need to acknowledge I'm right". The same old song and dance with you.

The guy did a solid job last year, when promoted to offensive coordinator, in running this offense/play calling, and working with a rookie Mayfield. The team finished 7-8-1 (5-3 under Kitchen's auspices), and after going 0-16 the season before. His efforts (results) deserved attention/recognition. I don't know if you've noticed it or not, but there has been a changing of the guard going on (so to speak) for some time in the NFL with organization's infusing new blood, promoting fresh, young coaches, giving them their shot as head coaches. You have to start somewhere.

You also want the right coach for your system/scheme. Need that right fit.

Kitchens is just one of many young coaches deserving the opportunity IMO. That's it. Unlike you, I've made no proclamations or staked out any firm positions on how good/bad a head coach he will be. Because we don't know. Small window.

But you do. You seem to know it before they step one foot into their new position, make one call, take one snap. Amazing ability.

Do you think Kitchen out-coached veteran Super Bowl winning head coach Harbaugh last night? Or was that a fluke? Solid win. Showed growth, improvement, encouraging. That's all IMO. You now move on to the next game.

The Browns, for once, have the talent in abundance. They just have to learn, grow, and put it all together as a cohesive unit. And that includes a new rookie head coach. Mistakes will be made in that process. We'll have a far better "picture" of Kitchens after one season. And he deserves that.

But you're obviously not going to give him that chance, because you've already stuck your neck out, staked out your firm position. And you'll spend the remainder of this season on this thread reminding us every time you think Kitchen's made a bad decision.

[Sea Ray]

You tell me. Did you watch all three games? You pull up one of your quotes from last season ... and after only three games (1-2 record) ... in a silly attempt to say "I told you so" and somehow try to gloat (LOL). That's all this is about... "They hired the wrong guy, and you all need to acknowledge I'm right". The same old song and dance with you.

The guy did a solid job last year, when promoted to offensive coordinator, in running this offense/play calling, and working with a rookie Mayfield. The team finished 7-8-1 (5-3 under Kitchen's auspices), and after going 0-16 the season before. His efforts (results) deserved attention/recognition. I don't know if you've noticed it or not, but there has been a changing of the guard going on (so to speak) for some time in the NFL with organization's infusing new blood, promoting fresh, young coaches, giving them their shot as head coaches. You have to start somewhere.

You also want the right coach for your system/scheme. Need that right fit.

Kitchens is just one of many young coaches deserving the opportunity IMO. That's it. Unlike you, I've made no proclamations or staked out any firm positions on how good/bad a head coach he will be. Because we don't know. Small window.

But you do. You seem to know it before they step one foot into their new position, make one call, take one snap. Amazing ability.

Do you think Kitchen out-coached veteran Super Bowl winning head coach Harbaugh last night? Or was that a fluke? Solid win. Showed growth, improvement, encouraging. That's all IMO. You now move on to the next game.

The Browns, for once, have the talent in abundance. They just have to learn, grow, and put it all together as a cohesive unit. And that includes a new rookie head coach. Mistakes will be made in that process. We'll have a far better "picture" of Kitchens after one season. And he deserves that.

But you're obviously not going to give him that chance, because you've already stuck your neck out, staked out your firm position. And you'll spend the remainder of this season on this thread reminding us every time you think Kitchen's made a bad decision.

OK, I'll tell you: This is the first post I've made about Kitchens since the season began and he's made far more one mistake this season. In addition, I've not mentioned any mistake he's made this year. Not a one. That's not what I'm about.

My stance is more big picture and it hasn't changed. It was a reasonable opinion at the time and it sure looks reasonable now: Kitchens was a very risky hire. Since it was reasonable, it should not have been attacked like it was.

Congrats on the big win yesterday

[kaldaniels]

OK, I'll tell you: This is the first post I've made about Kitchens since the season began and he's made far more one mistake this season. In addition, I've not mentioned any mistake he's made this year. Not a one. That's not what I'm about.

My stance is more big picture and it hasn't changed. It was a reasonable opinion at the time and it sure looks reasonable now: Kitchens was a very risky hire. Since it was reasonable, it should not have been attacked like it was.

Congrats on the big win yesterday

This (Post 200) was not your first post about Kitchens since the season began.

Post 181 you quoted your own post about Kitchens. That counts too. In that same post you said
it'll be fun to see how long Browns fans continue to defend this hire with all their heart and soul And you seem to wonder why a humble and respectful poster like GAC takes issue with your style.

I also don't see where you were all that "attacked" for your thoughts as opposed to some debate. To quote you from this thread yet again
You're getting your panties in a wad for no reason. and
I described your post as whining. Fair game. Sorry you can't handle that

I wrote this to support GAC who as I've said before is one of the most considerate posters on here and doesn't deserve to be dragged into the muck.

[Sea Ray]

This (Post 200) was not your first post about Kitchens since the season began.

Post 181 you quoted your own post about Kitchens. That counts too. In that same post you said And you seem to wonder why a humble and respectful poster like GAC takes issue with your style.

I also don't see where you were all that "attacked" for your thoughts as opposed to some debate. To quote you from this thread yet again and

I wrote this to support GAC who as I've said before is one of the most considerate posters on here and doesn't deserve to be dragged into the muck.

OK, by "this" I meant the post in question. If you thought I meant the post 2 hrs ago, that's on you. I didn't drag anyone into anything. He responded to my post and I responded to his. That's what we do here.

As for you, you're getting quite the reputation yourself. Anytime I see your name as a reply to my post I know what's coming: a whiny post that has nothing to do with sports but is directed against me personally. That's what you're all about. Do you have anything to say here about Kitchens or the Browns?

[kaldaniels]

OK, by "this" I meant the post in question. If you thought I meant the post 2 hrs ago, that's on you. I didn't drag anyone into anything. He responded to my post and I responded to his. That's what we do here.

As for you, you're getting quite the reputation yourself. Anytime I see your name as a reply to my post I know what's coming: a whiny post that has nothing to do with sports but is directed against me personally. That's what you're all about. Do you have anything to say here about Kitchens or the Browns?

Your post should have read “that was” (in reference to a post a page or so back) , not “this is”. I get it, we all make mistakes but no need to double down and question my comprehension with a “that’s on you.”

And as said, no whining. Just pointing out facts as I stand with GAC on the matter in question.

And spare me the classic Sea Ray “Do you have anything to say about the Browns?” - this is just a simple message board aside.

[Sea Ray]

Your post should have read “that was” (in reference to a post a page or so back) , not “this is”. I get it, we all make mistakes but no need to double down and question my comprehension with a “that’s on you.”

And as said, no whining. Just pointing out facts as I stand with GAC on the matter in question.

And spare me the classic Sea Ray “Do you have anything to say about the Browns?” - this is just a simple message board aside.

Things got so bad we needed a reprimand by the MOD. Keep it up and we'll get one again. I'm here to talk Browns football, not go round and round with you and your "classic Sea Ray" barbs. I'm not going there.

So have I mentioned any mistake Kitchens has made this year? Give me one

[Kingspoint]

...back to the Browns, please.

[Sea Ray]

...back to the Browns, please.

Definitely. I never wanted discussion to leave the Browns

[kaldaniels]

Freddy Kitchens is a Golden God who reigns supreme. He’s king of the minions!

[GAC]

This (Post 200) was not your first post about Kitchens since the season began.

Post 181 you quoted your own post about Kitchens. That counts too. In that same post you said And you seem to wonder why a humble and respectful poster like GAC takes issue with your style.

I also don't see where you were all that "attacked" for your thoughts as opposed to some debate. To quote you from this thread yet again and

I wrote this to support GAC who as I've said before is one of the most considerate posters on here and doesn't deserve to be dragged into the muck.

I thank you for the support and complement. I can say the same for you in the many years you've been on here kal. IMO, it's all about showing fairness and bringing some sense of objectivity to a discussion. His "problem" is that he forms firm, rigid, positions (projections really) on newly hired (promoted) head coaches or players (draft picks) who haven't stepped one foot into their new jobs yet. They haven't been given the opportunity to prove anything at this point. How does one know? You don't. Yet somehow he does. They're going to fail. Mark it down. Count on it. To have that gift, one should be working in a front office somewhere!

This is the whole issue in a nutshell. It's not about Kitchens. Put Zac Taylor's name in there if one wants, or any other newly installed head coach. Kitchens could end up falling flat on his face, be the biggest bust, the biggest disappointment. That possibility exists. But the window is just too ridiculously small right now to stake out any position either way. I'm certainly not. It's about allotting these new coaches or players a reasonable amount of time (window) before judgments are made either way.

SeaRay's problem is his rigid projections also put him in a box where there's really only one escape route - he's right. And the perception I get from his posts on here is that he wants Kitchens to fail simply so he can come back and say he's right (LOL).

[GAC]

My stance is more big picture and it hasn't changed.

Big pictures can't be formed through such small windows of observation, such as the first 3 games of the new season (LOL).

This is all about Dorsey, what his plans/schemes are, what he wants in his head coach, and what he saw in Kitchens. Period.

And I'm not attacking you. Just strongly disagreeing with you on this point. Don't come into a Brown's discussion bringing up the same point, reminding us fans, our leadership has hired the wrong guy. We get it. We know what you position is (LOL).

[GAC]

OK, by "this" I meant the post in question. If you thought I meant the post 2 hrs ago, that's on you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2rX-1rTuhE

[Sea Ray]

Big pictures can't be formed through such small windows of observation, such as the first 3 games of the new season (LOL).

This is all about Dorsey, what his plans/schemes are, what he wants in his head coach, and what he saw in Kitchens. Period.

And I'm not attacking you. Just strongly disagreeing with you on this point. Don't come into a Brown's discussion bringing up the same point, reminding us fans, our leadership has hired the wrong guy. We get it. We know what you position is (LOL).

Big pictures can be formed anytime. That's why they're big pictures. I agree with you that there's no final pictures yet. But by that time, we'll all be talking about something else. As fans we try to play front office and evaluate hires of players and coaches. Nothing wrong with that. If we just sit back and always say "it's too early to judge...give the guy a chance" then we'd have nothing to talk about. A good GM projects players and coaches. He doesn't say "let's just give this guy a chance."

[Sea Ray]

Big pictures can't be formed through such small windows of observation, such as the first 3 games of the new season (LOL).

This is all about Dorsey, what his plans/schemes are, what he wants in his head coach, and what he saw in Kitchens. Period.

And I'm not attacking you. Just strongly disagreeing with you on this point. Don't come into a Brown's discussion bringing up the same point, reminding us fans, our leadership has hired the wrong guy. We get it. We know what you position is (LOL).

We have a lot more information than we had in January. We've seen him run the team and coach it for a quarter of the season. It's worthy discussion. I get that you're still standing by your guy. I saw you do that with Hue for about two yrs. I bailed on him long before that

[phatknuckle]

We have a lot more information than we had in January. We've seen him run the team and coach it for a quarter of the season. It's worthy discussion. I get that you're still standing by your guy. I saw you do that with Hue for about two yrs. I bailed on him long before that

I have a question Sea Ray. You say that Kitchen's was a high risk pick for head coach. I maintain that any pick is high risk. Name a candidate, heck name anyone you can think of, and I'll tell you why that would also have been a high risk choice.

[Sea Ray]

I have a question Sea Ray. You say that Kitchen's was a high risk pick for head coach. I maintain that any pick is high risk. Name a candidate, heck name anyone you can think of, and I'll tell you why that would also have been a high risk choice.

No question there's risk in any pick. My posts surrounded around the risk of hiring from within. Traditionally those hires don't work out and I documented that

[phatknuckle]

Big pictures can be formed anytime. That's why they're big pictures. I agree with you that there's no final pictures yet. But by that time, we'll all be talking about something else. As fans we try to play front office and evaluate hires of players and coaches. Nothing wrong with that. If we just sit back and always say "it's too early to judge...give the guy a chance" then we'd have nothing to talk about. A good GM projects players and coaches. He doesn't say "let's just give this guy a chance."

I know I'm not employed as a NFL GM, not sure about you, but I highly doubt it. For whatever reason Dorsey believed Kitchens was the right guy for this job and he is a NFL GM and a highly respected one at that. As a Browns fan I don't think it is unreasonable to be willing to give Kitchens a chance to grow into the job and see if Dorsey is right. Not sure why you don't get that.

[Sea Ray]

I know I'm not employed as a NFL GM, not sure about you, but I highly doubt it. For whatever reason Dorsey believed Kitchens was the right guy for this job and he is a NFL GM and a highly respected one at that. As a Browns fan I don't think it is unreasonable to be willing to give Kitchens a chance to grow into the job and see if Dorsey is right. Not sure why you don't get that.

I'm not sure why you think I'm saying it's unreasonable for a Browns fan to give Kitchens a chance. Of course you should do that.

[phatknuckle]

No question there's risk in any pick. My posts surrounded around the risk of hiring from within. Traditionally those hires don't work out and I documented that

As been pointed out, Kitchens is hardly an organizational guy. He hadn't been with the Browns very long. He certainly wasn't a protege of Hue, so I'm not sure why you paint him with such a broad brush.

[Sea Ray]

As been pointed out, Kitchens is hardly an organizational guy. He hadn't been with the Browns very long. He certainly wasn't a protege of Hue, so I'm not sure why you paint him with such a broad brush.

The only broad brush I painted him with was as a hire from within...and that shoe fits

[phatknuckle]

I'm not sure why you think I'm saying it's unreasonable for a Browns fan to give Kitchens a chance. Of course you should do that.

You came on here basically chastising the Browns fans for still supporting the Kitchens hire after 3 games. Not sure what else you were attempting to do with that post.

[Sea Ray]

You came on here basically chastising the Browns fans for still supporting the Kitchens hire after 3 games. Not sure what else you were attempting to do with that post.

I disagree with your assessment. I've been consistent in my comments on Kitchens.

[phatknuckle]

The only broad brush I painted him with was as a hire from within...and that shoe fits

Only on a technicality. Kitchens was with the Browns less than a year before he was promoted to head coach and was brought in by the current GM.

[Sea Ray]

Only on a technicality. Kitchens was with the Browns less than a year before he was promoted to head coach and was brought in by the current GM.

Hopefully he'll be the exception to that trend. Time will tell

[phatknuckle]

Hopefully he'll be the exception to that trend. Time will tell

Name another 'hire from within' that fits the same profile (less than a year in the organization and brought in by the newly hired GM) and maybe you'll have an angle.

[phatknuckle]

I disagree with your assessment. I've been consistent in my comments on Kitchens.

You've posted several times that you think Kitchens will be a big fail. If your stance hasn't changed, then we already know your opinion. What is the point in popping back in just to remind us?

[Sea Ray]

You've posted several times that you think Kitchens will be a big fail. If your stance hasn't changed, then we already know your opinion. What is the point in popping back in just to remind us?

Copy/paste a comment of mine that you want to discuss. My stance has always been that he's a risky hire. It's way too soon to predict that he'll be a big fail. Your assessment is not accurate

[BuckeyeRed27]

Kitchens had a good game plan against the Ravens and called a nice game, mostly because he finally fed Chubb and let Baker complement him not the other way around. He has a lot on his plate being the HC and play caller and for the first three weeks didn’t do a very good job at either. I think he should probably let someone else do play calling while he figures out the HC stuff. That said if they use the first couple losses as learning experiences and get better like they did this week they are still in good shape and should win 10 or 11 games.

[phatknuckle]

Copy/paste a comment of mine that you want to discuss. My stance has always been that he's a risky hire. It's way too soon to predict that he'll be a big fail. Your assessment is not accurate



The Browns obsession with Kitchens is strange. Why choose him over McCarthy?

It's also interesting that this NFL head coaching search has more turned into men interviewing employers rather than the other way around. That's the opposite of how it usually goes

As a Bengal fan, I'm pleased with this hire...although I have little confidence my front office will do any better
I caught an awful lot of flack for this statement here. I stand by it and it'll be fun to see how long Browns fans continue to defend this hire with all their heart and soul. I got attacked for days for this comment

After three games you quoted yourself and basically questioned how long it would take for the Browns fans to stop defending the hire. It's weird because I don't remember anyone arguing with you that it was a non-risky hire. I do recall Browns fan saying that they believe in their GM and if this is the guy he wanted then so be it. And then after three games you post this. We get that you don't believe in this hire and in essence don't believe Dorsey knows what he is doing. We disagree on the last point. If you have nothing else to add then I guess we're done here.

[Sea Ray]

After three games you quoted yourself and basically questioned how long it would take for the Browns fans to stop defending the hire. It's weird because I don't remember anyone arguing with you that it was a non-risky hire. I do recall Browns fan saying that they believe in their GM and if this is the guy he wanted then so be it. And then after three games you post this. We get that you don't believe in this hire and in essence don't believe Dorsey knows what he is doing. We disagree on the last point. If you have nothing else to add then I guess we're done here.

Enjoy the season. The division is yours for the taking. You've got tons of talent to root for.

[phatknuckle]

Enjoy the season. The division is yours for the taking. You've got tons of talent to root for.

Thanks, but I'm not going to get too high after one good game. I'll wait and see if the offensive problems have really been solved and whether their defensive backfield can get healthy.

I don't think the Ravens are going anywhere and the Steelers, somehow, someway, always seem to stay in the thick of things.

[kaldaniels]

It was a great game for the Browns but those who watched it know it was up for grabs in the 3rd quarter and the Ravens had momentum. Chubb’s 88 yard run broke it open and the Ravens then went off he rails soon thereafter but I’d argue it was a closer game than the MMQBs are making it. Big progress though.

[GAC]

I disagree with your assessment. I've been consistent in my comments on Kitchens.

I agree with you here. And you comments are consistent - Browns hired the wrong guy.


I'm not sure why you think I'm saying it's unreasonable for a Browns fan to give Kitchens a chance. Of course you should do that.

And so should you. Instead of attempting to project how it's going to turn out.

[GAC]

There are eight first year coaches in the NFL this year. Other then LaFleur (GB), the others aren't faring too well starting out.


Change doesn’t always come quickly in the NFL, and for the eight teams hoping that new head coach hires during the offseason would spark instant turnarounds, well ......

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/9/25/20883040/rookie-head-coaches-right-and-wrong-check-in

To begin with - the reason you hired a new head coach is because you had to fire the old one, and your team has an issue called losing. And the issues are multiple.

So an organization goes through the process in-depth, does all the research, interviews, until they feel they've found the right guy. They hire him.

Thus begins the process.

I certainly have no disagreement with giving new head coaches "grade cards" in their first year. But I look at the task at hand, what the condition of the team is, what's the plan/objective? And staking out any kind of final judgment (position) on these rookie coaches trying to change things up, implement their systems, acquire the personnel, in their first year is pretty premature.

All these first year head coaches, regardless of what experience they have, what their resume says, have one thing in common at this level - inexperience. There's going to be mistakes, growing pains, whatever. You have to factor that into the process.

[GAC]

Here's one of my "things" with the Browns this year. Anyone who is an avid follower (fan) of this team can sight multiple areas where this organization has failed miserably for years. But over these last few years - even the 0-16 year - there were many, many games this team was not only in (competitive), but even had a lead going into the 4th Q.

But they always found a way to lose (choke) it. They could never finish it.

I actually count that Ram's game as one. 13-10 Browns heading into the 4th. Some bad decisions made by Kitchens - and Kitchens publicly acknowledged it was on him. You move on. And they rebounded nicely vs the Ravens in Baltimore.

Their next three opponents are - 49ers (A)(MNF), Seahawks (H), Pats (A). Who have the 49ers and Seahawks played? The combined record for the 49ers opponents is 3-9 ... the Seahawks 4-11-1. Seattle beat the Saints, but barely squeaked by the Bengals, Steelers, and Cardinals (who have one lone W between them, and that is Pitt over Cincy). The 49ers have played TB, Bengals, and Steelers.

I'm simply saying they're going to face a better level of talent, IMO, in the Browns.

[Sea Ray]

I agree with you here. And you comments are consistent - Browns hired the wrong guy.



And so should you. Instead of attempting to project how it's going to turn out.

As sports fans we always project how things will turn out. That's what we do. And it's what ownership should do too. We love playing GM. Your college football thread is 100% attempting to project how it's going to turn out. I know you get it

[Sea Ray]

Here's one of my "things" with the Browns this year. Anyone who is an avid follower (fan) of this team can sight multiple areas where this organization has failed miserably for years. But over these last few years - even the 0-16 year - there were many, many games this team was not only in (competitive), but even had a lead going into the 4th Q.

But they always found a way to lose (choke) it. They could never finish it.

I actually count that Ram's game as one. 13-10 Browns heading into the 4th. Some bad decisions made by Kitchens - and Kitchens publicly acknowledged it was on him. You move on. And they rebounded nicely vs the Ravens in Baltimore.

Their next three opponents are - 49ers (A)(MNF), Seahawks (H), Pats (A). Who have the 49ers and Seahawks played? The combined record for the 49ers opponents is 3-9 ... the Seahawks 4-11-1. Seattle beat the Saints, but barely squeaked by the Bengals, Steelers, and Cardinals (who have one lone W between them, and that is Pitt over Cincy). The 49ers have played TB, Bengals, and Steelers.

I'm simply saying they're going to face a better level of talent, IMO, in the Browns.

What are you smokin' Greg? Seattle beat the Saints but barely squeaked by the Cardinals? I'll help you. Check this and get back with us:

http://www.nfl.com/schedules/2019/REG/SEAHAWKS

You can't make a conclusion based upon faulty information and the information you posted above is not accurate

[GAC]

As sports fans we always project how things will turn out. That's what we do.

A projection is nothing more then an estimate or a forecast of a future situation based on the study of the present (data). And while a tool, it's about as reliable as that weather forecast we get. A projection is not a guarantee of future results. And anyone into analytics will tell you that. You're using available data to get you in the ballpark, give you a feel of what could occur, the direction it may take. It's an educated guess.

And we're not talking about analyzing a minor league ballplayer, or a college player, who has several years of the type of critical data needed to even attempt to form a valued opinion (projection) of future performance. There's a world of difference between watching an athlete play 2B or QB for several years in the system, collecting the data, then sitting down and analyzing that data to form a projection of whether they're going to make it at 2B/QB.

The point is .... you have something far more tangible to go on. Far more information and data.

We're talking about first year head coach, newly hired to the position, where you don't. They all have no head coaching experience. What critical data are you utilizing to make such a projection with such certainty that this person will fail at that position? His coaching resume? Kitchen had 4 years of coaching experience at the college level, and 13 years of experience in the NFL, with three organizations (Dallas, Cardinals, Browns) in various offensive coaching positions. When I look at these other new head coaching hires, like Taylor, Nagy, Kingsbury, etc, I don't see anything in their resume that makes them stand out any more then Kitchen's.


We love playing GM.

And that's the problem. Fans, simply because they have access to all this data in front of them, thinking they can put it all together, sometimes even better then the GMs themselves, in predicting the future. There's far more to the job, the process, then what's "on paper". You want to know who Kitchens or Taylor or whoever really is? Talk with the players, the coaches, and all those that worked with them, that really know the individual over the years. And especially the GM (management) that did the extensive research and hired them. Each organization does it with a purpose/goal in mind. And that candidate, for whatever, reason, fit that scheme. You give them the opportunity and go from there.

If fans want to play GM that's fine. But there's sound reason why we're not one. We're no more qualified to "play" GM then any of the positions on that playing field. Maintain some sort of perspective here.


Your college football thread is 100% attempting to project how it's going to turn out. I know you get it

There is very little comparison at all with a group of fans predicting game day match-ups (pick a winner)... and predicting the CAREER of a newly hired head coach (LOL). And our college football thread proves my point. We can pour over all the game day data (match-ups) we want trying to arrive at the best decision we can from that data. After all, the data should obviously points us in one direction right? Yet look at our winning percentages? A lot of us are wrong a lot. Bad example on your part.

[GAC]

What are you smokin' Greg? Seattle beat the Saints but barely squeaked by the Cardinals? I'll help you. Check this and get back with us:

http://www.nfl.com/schedules/2019/REG/SEAHAWKS

You can't make a conclusion based upon faulty information and the information you posted above is not accurate

Don't know how I saw those wrong, but I did. I apologize. I can admit when I'm in error. The only "conclusion" I made, and that hasn't changed, is that the 49ers and Seattle - looking who their opposition has been up to this point ... will face a better level of talent with the Browns. That's it. That's all I said (LOL).

[Sea Ray]

Don't know how I saw those wrong, but I did. I apologize. I can admit when I'm in error. The only "conclusion" I made, and that hasn't changed, is that the 49ers and Seattle - looking who their opposition has been up to this point ... will face a better level of talent with the Browns. That's it. That's all I said (LOL).

I don't know how you got them so wrong either. That's what amazed me.

It serves the Browns very well that they're getting a west coast team traveling to the eastern time zone after a tough Monday Night game. You can't get better scheduling than that from a Browns' perspective. I think that's a bigger factor than who the Seahawks have played so far

[Sea Ray]

A projection is nothing more then an estimate or a forecast of a future situation based on the study of the present (data). And while a tool, it's about as reliable as that weather forecast we get. A projection is not a guarantee of future results. And anyone into analytics will tell you that. You're using available data to get you in the ballpark, give you a feel of what could occur, the direction it may take. It's an educated guess.

And we're not talking about analyzing a minor league ballplayer, or a college player, who has several years of the type of critical data needed to even attempt to form a valued opinion (projection) of future performance. There's a world of difference between watching an athlete play 2B or QB for several years in the system, collecting the data, then sitting down and analyzing that data to form a projection of whether they're going to make it at 2B/QB.

The point is .... you have something far more tangible to go on. Far more information and data.

We're talking about first year head coach, newly hired to the position, where you don't. They all have no head coaching experience. What critical data are you utilizing to make such a projection with such certainty that this person will fail at that position? His coaching resume? Kitchen had 4 years of coaching experience at the college level, and 13 years of experience in the NFL, with three organizations (Dallas, Cardinals, Browns) in various offensive coaching positions. When I look at these other new head coaching hires, like Taylor, Nagy, Kingsbury, etc, I don't see anything in their resume that makes them stand out any more then Kitchen's.



And that's the problem. Fans, simply because they have access to all this data in front of them, thinking they can put it all together, sometimes even better then the GMs themselves, in predicting the future. There's far more to the job, the process, then what's "on paper". You want to know who Kitchens or Taylor or whoever really is? Talk with the players, the coaches, and all those that worked with them, that really know the individual over the years. And especially the GM (management) that did the extensive research and hired them. Each organization does it with a purpose/goal in mind. And that candidate, for whatever, reason, fit that scheme. You give them the opportunity and go from there.

If fans want to play GM that's fine. But there's sound reason why we're not one. We're no more qualified to "play" GM then any of the positions on that playing field. Maintain some sort of perspective here.



There is very little comparison at all with a group of fans predicting game day match-ups (pick a winner)... and predicting the CAREER of a newly hired head coach (LOL). And our college football thread proves my point. We can pour over all the game day data (match-ups) we want trying to arrive at the best decision we can from that data. After all, the data should obviously points us in one direction right? Yet look at our winning percentages? A lot of us are wrong a lot. Bad example on your part.

I'm going to keep this short and simple: As fans on internet chat boards, it'll always be fair game to discuss whether a coaching hire is a good one or not. That's what we do as fans. It doesn't matter if our opinions or fortune telling turns out to be right or wrong but it's fair game to put our opinions out there. As Reds fans on ORG we discuss almost daily whether Manager Bell is working out or not. It's what we do

[GAC]

I don't know how you got them so wrong either. That's what amazed me. Because I was trying to do several things at once ... and I have brain farts. Why do you think I ask people over on the college thread to double check my work? Look at the mistake I made (twice) with Boston Red that you caught. [I thought that was funny]

Want some more examples, I'll let you talk to my better half for the last 37 years (LOL).


It serves the Browns very well that they're getting a west coast team traveling to the eastern time zone after a tough Monday Night game. You can't get better scheduling than that from a Browns' perspective. I think that's a bigger factor than who the Seahawks have played so far

I'll definitely take playing the Seahawks at home over Seattle. A majority of teams would. But even home field has not been an advantage for the Browns to date. IMO, the Bengals should have one that game earlier in the season v Seattle. They (including Dalton) played a heck of a game in hostile territory.

My point (basically) was addressing the media (pundits) after week #2. They were all saying the Browns have a tough road ahead over the next 5 games because all their opponents are currently 2-0. The "2-0" I laugh at. Means very little to me. Especially if one considers the level of talent they were facing. Example. Last year the Dolphins came out and went 3-0 to start the season. Fizzled and finished 7-9.

What makes this stretch tough is that 4 of those teams won their respective decisions last year, Seattle (10-6) was a WC, and one (NE) went on to win the SB.

The 49ers could end up being a good team. Just too early to tell with a team that went 4-12 last season, and has had it's issues. They're 3-0, played two terrible teams (Bengals, Steelers), and TB (2-2). Just hard to say at this stage.

The Browns haven't played in a MNF game since 2015. But they haven't fared bad overall (15-14).

[GAC]

I had a chill run down my spine yesterday, lying back going between various games, as this thought enter my head while watch Mahomes (Chiefs). Hypothetically speaking off course. Because the Browns haven't proven anything yet. There's just a lot of hype, build up, around what GM Dorsey has done. But lets say they rise up and become a force in the AFC over the next several years.

Are Mahomes/KC going to be our Elway/Denver? LOL

That's right .... Dorsey's former employer, and maybe the most important impact player he ever drafted (Mahomes), could be the thorn in his side. His Frankenstein monster.

If you're a Browns fans it should give you shivers

[queue Twilight Zone intro]

[GAC]

Wow! Going into halftime....everything's working for the 49ers, they can do no wrong... and the Browns, especially Mayfield, can do nothing right. They're kicking our ass, and they ain't done yet. The 49ers are simply dominating the line on both sides, blowing us away.

Mayfield - 6 sacks already (50+ yds), 2 INTs, lost fumble.

185 yds rushing by the 49ers (lol)

[Bob Sheed]

49ers are tough this year.

That one INT wasn't Mayfield's fault. The fumble and the other INT were... he has to be smarter with the ball.

Dude from OSU on the 49ers defense is really rubbing it in.

Not a good night for the Browns but fortunately they are in the AFC North.

[Redsfaithful]

I think the 49ers are a Super Bowl contender, as of right now.

[kaldaniels]

Laid a big egg tonight.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Big questions coming into the year were a first year head coach, a second year QB and the OL. None of those things have looked good and were all exposed tonight.

Kitchens needs to stop play calling. He can’t be the HC and the play caller. They are getting out coached in every game that Chubb doesn’t run wild.

They still have a favorable second half schedule, but they are staring 2-5 in the face right now and that doesn’t leave much wiggle room.

[RedTeamGo!]

49ers are tough this year.

That one INT wasn't Mayfield's fault. The fumble and the other INT were... he has to be smarter with the ball.

Dude from OSU on the 49ers defense is really rubbing it in.

Not a good night for the Browns but fortunately they are in the AFC North.

I think the browns would be a better team right now with Andy Dalton at QB.

Just sayin.

[North]

Wow! Going into halftime....everything's working for the 49ers, they can do no wrong... and the Browns, especially Mayfield, can do nothing right. They're kicking our ass, and they ain't done yet. The 49ers are simply dominating the line on both sides, blowing us away.

Mayfield - 6 sacks already (50+ yds), 2 INTs, lost fumble.

185 yds rushing by the 49ers (lol)

All the rule changes year after year favoring the pass game and the QB...it is (has) become interior rush...get to the QB quick, pressure him, sack him.

These days, I wouldn't have edge rushers high on my draft priority list. And for OL, I'm buying C and G, less on OT's.

[Kingspoint]

49ers are tough this year.

That one INT wasn't Mayfield's fault. The fumble and the other INT were... he has to be smarter with the ball.

Dude from OSU on the 49ers defense is really rubbing it in.

Not a good night for the Browns but fortunately they are in the AFC North.

John Lynch has showed he's known what he's doing since Day 1. He had to get rid of problem child, as that was his only hiccup in his timeline since he took over.