Trade Suarez

[Falls City Beer]

The idea pains me, but I don’t think the Reds will contend while he’s under contract. They really can’t repeat the Votto mistake.

The Reds need to get a couple premium minor leaguers or very young MLB players. Suarez and Gray (though I would rather keep him) seem like the only players capable of returning that.

Whom would you target with Suarez?

[JaxRed]

I'd try to get a 3b in the prime of his career with a great contract. One with lots of power. Geno Suarez.

[ochoa30]

Honestly this team doesnt look like a contender without some major money being spent this offseason. Even if they want to you have to wonder who would come to Cincinnati. The free agent list just isnt that great this year. You may have to look to make some franchise altering trades here shortly. Saurez with his contract could be it. Either way nobody should be untouchable.

[Bob Sheed]

Let's trade away anyone on an upward trend for prospects, and let's give any anyone else.

Yeah that's been working really well for years now...

[Falls City Beer]

Let's trade away anyone on an upward trend for prospects, and let's give any anyone else.

Yeah that's been working really well for years now...

The club has a collective brain fever that Bauer has earned 30 starts and they’re about to spend their next year’s bullpen budget on him. This organization is going nowhere. They need to retrench

[The Operator]

The Votto mistake? Votto was signed to a 250 million dollar contract.

Geno is signed dirt cheap during his most productive years.


The Reds aren't that far away. They need a hitter and a better bullpen, you've said how close they were many different times this entire season. I think you're dabbling in hyperbole here.

[NebraskaRed]

Listen to any offers, but it would have to be a pretty great one to justify trading Geno at this point.

[Coopdaddy67]

The Votto mistake? Votto was signed to a 250 million dollar contract.

Geno is signed dirt cheap during his most productive years.


The Reds aren't that far away. They need a hitter and a better bullpen, you've said how close they were many different times this entire season. I think you're dabbling in hyperbole here.

Not to mention Votto's contract has already paid for itself. Of all the big contracts handed out during that time period, his looks among the most successful.

[RedTeamGo!]

The idea pains me, but I don’t think the Reds will contend while he’s under contract. They really can’t repeat the Votto mistake.

The Reds need to get a couple premium minor leaguers or very young MLB players. Suarez and Gray (though I would rather keep him) seem like the only players capable of returning that.

Whom would you target with Suarez?

This post is nonsense.

Votto mistake? Suarez’s contract is a fraction of the Votto contract.

Not going to contend while he is under control? Suarez is under control until 2025. If they honestly don’t think they can contend in that timeframe they should just fold up shop and stop having a team.

Absurd post.

[Falls City Beer]

The Votto mistake? Votto was signed to a 250 million dollar contract.

Geno is signed dirt cheap during his most productive years.


The Reds aren't that far away. They need a hitter and a better bullpen, you've said how close they were many different times this entire season. I think you're dabbling in hyperbole here.

I used to believe they were close. I really did. Even as recently as June. But they are gonna be bad without a pretty major turnaround. And they aren’t going to be able to spend their way to get there. They might be able to be aggressive and pull something off for 2021, but there is no way they’re contending next season. They can move Geno for a young bat and electric bullpen arm.

The Votto mistake was letting a top player rot on a noncontender, not the money involved. And by 2022, Geno will likely be in decline.

[RedTeamGo!]

Let's trade away anyone on an upward trend for prospects, and let's give any anyone else.

Yeah that's been working really well for years now...

To be clear: I am against the ridiculous notion of trading Suarez this offseason.

With that said they have traded basically nobody on an upward trend over the years. They have waited until the aging veteran was either in decline or in the last year of their contract.

So, not really sure what you are referring to when you say that has been “working really well for years now...”

[ochoa30]

To be clear: I am against the ridiculous notion of trading Suarez this offseason.

With that said they have traded basically nobody on an upward trend over the years. They have waited until the aging veteran was either in decline or in the last year of their contract.

So, not really sure what you are referring to when you say that has been “working really well for years now...”

Isnt this kind of the point? They need to make some moves and trade a few players who are at peak value every once in a while. I love Suarez and not saying you do it for no reason but you saying it's a Ridiculous notion and then pointing out that the Reds holding on to players too long has been the problem is pretty ironic if you ask me.

[Dat dude BP]

Terrible idea op

[Falls City Beer]

Terrible idea op

Well said. Care to tell me how the Reds improve in the near and medium term?

[BluegrassRedleg]

Let's trade away anyone on an upward trend for prospects, and let's give any anyone else.

Yeah that's been working really well for years now...

Name the players the Reds have traded on an upward trend.

[BluegrassRedleg]

Honestly this team doesnt look like a contender without some major money being spent this offseason. Even if they want to you have to wonder who would come to Cincinnati. The free agent list just isnt that great this year. You may have to look to make some franchise altering trades here shortly. Saurez with his contract could be it. Either way nobody should be untouchable.

That's the way I look at it. I don't want to trade Suarez, but the goal is to get better and stop sucking. You do that by spending more money and/or parlaying talent into greater talent.

[NebraskaRed]

Name the players the Reds have traded on an upward trend.

Homer Bailey

[DocRed]

Seriously this is a bad team. Many many holes...at both the player and management levels.

[Falls City Beer]

Seriously this is a bad team. Many many holes...at both the player and management levels.

It’s impossible to gild the lily anymore. Just an unholy mess.

[jojo]

The idea pains me, but I don’t think the Reds will contend while he’s under contract. They really can’t repeat the Votto mistake.

The Reds need to get a couple premium minor leaguers or very young MLB players. Suarez and Gray (though I would rather keep him) seem like the only players capable of returning that.

Whom would you target with Suarez?

This is a terribly intelligent, forward thinking, sound idea. It won't go over well as a result. That said, the best time to trade him was two Julys ago. The second best time was last December.

[RedTeamGo!]

Isnt this kind of the point? They need to make some moves and trade a few players who are at peak value every once in a while. I love Suarez and not saying you do it for no reason but you saying it's a Ridiculous notion and then pointing out that the Reds holding on to players too long has been the problem is pretty ironic if you ask me.

Suarez is controlled for 5 more years, though, and even though FCB is throwing in the towel for the next 5 years, I, and I hope the reds are not.

If Suarez was the only good player on the roster, yes, trade him. But, he’s not. They have a decent amount of talent on this team, Suarez is dirt cheap and good, and with a few tweaks they can absolutely contend next year.

Frankly, this thread comes off as trolling.

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If this is how this fanbase truly feels Cincinnati needs to stop having a team. What’s the point?

[Dat dude BP]

Well for starters, you don’t trade a team friendly deal player(that’s producing and our best player) for prospects unless it’s a Vladimir Guerrero jr., nobody is going to give you that. Suárez is only 28. As for pitching, you will have to spend some money on the off-season. They have room for it, with a lot of money coming off at the all star break. Some guys the reds will stumble upon and turn to be good players. We are a small market team so room for error is minimal. There will be trades in the off-season, but trading Suarez shouldn’t be one of them

[NebraskaRed]

Suarez is controlled for 5 more years, though, and even though FCB is throwing in the towel for the next 5 years, I, and I hope the reds are not.

If Suarez was the only good player on the roster, yes, trade him. But, he’s not. They have a decent amount of talent on this team, Suarez is dirt cheap and good, and with a few tweaks they can absolutely contend next year.

Frankly, this thread comes off as trolling.

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If this is how this fanbase truly feels Cincinnati needs to stop having a team. What’s the point?

Would you turn down a really good offer for Geno? I'm talking major league-ready players.

[Falls City Beer]

Suarez is controlled for 5 more years, though, and even though FCB is throwing in the towel for the next 5 years, I, and I hope the reds are not.

If Suarez was the only good player on the roster, yes, trade him. But, he’s not. They have a decent amount of talent on this team, Suarez is dirt cheap and good, and with a few tweaks they can absolutely contend next year.

Frankly, this thread comes off as trolling.

I’m not the only person on this thread who supports this idea so it’s clearly not trolling.

I’d love to know how this organization can contend next season. If the Reds keep guys like Suarez and fiddle around at the edges and pick up a middle reliever here or a LF there, they will continue to be irrelevant for the next five years. If they get aggressive, they can turn this around a lot sooner.

[gagliano]

Let's trade away anyone on an upward trend for prospects, and let's give any anyone else.

Yeah that's been working really well for years now...

"prospects"! <snorts milk out my nose>

[Rolando]

I’m not the only person on this thread who supports this idea so it’s clearly not trolling.

I’d love to know how this organization can contend next season. If the Reds keep guys like Suarez and fiddle around at the edges and pick up a middle reliever here or a LF there, they will continue to be irrelevant for the next five years. If they get aggressive, they can turn this around a lot sooner.

I don't care if they trade him but I want four MLB ready players

[Falls City Beer]

I don't care if they trade him but I want four MLB ready players

That would be great. Provided they don’t get too cute and end up with four busts like Finnegan et al. Gotta be a can’t miss principal in the deal.

[Alabama]

Seriously this is a bad team. Many many holes...at both the player and management levels.

And has been obvious for quite some time. At least outside of this forum

[Rolando]

That would be great. Provided they don’t too cute and end up with four busts like Finnegan et al.
I don't disagree two of the four have to be proven MLB starting caliber players that have done it already

[Rolando]

And has been obvious for quite some time. At least outside of this forum

well tooniforms defense you know absolutely nothing you can't you're from Alabama

[NebraskaRed]

The smart move is to listen to every offer you have for any player. I don't think anyone in this thread is saying the Reds should trade Geno away from two kids who maybe possibly might potentially make the big leagues some day. If a good offer was made, and major league-ready players are involved, then you make that trade.

Nobody should ever be untradeable.

[RedTeamGo!]

Would you turn down a really good offer for Geno? I'm talking major league-ready players.

No, I would def trade Geno for Mike Trout.

That’s kind of a silly question. It would be prospects. I’m quite frankly over prospects.

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The smart move is to listen to every offer you have for any player. I don't think anyone in this thread is saying the Reds should trade Geno away from two kids who maybe possibly might potentially make the big leagues some day. If a good offer was made, and major league-ready players are involved, then you make that trade.

Nobody should ever be untradeable.

The smart move would be to buy out arb years and extend Suarez at an incredibly cheap rate and then let him hit 50 homers and OPS .900.

Oh wait, that’s exactly what the reds did.

[NebraskaRed]

No, I would def trade Geno for Mike Trout.

That’s kind of a silly question. It would be prospects. I’m quite frankly over prospects.

Except it's not a silly question. OP started by speculating on what kind of minor league or young MLB players the Reds could get in return for Geno.

You dismissed it as an absurd, trolling post, and my question as being silly. If you didn't have a response to OP's question, why are you posting here?

[RedTeamGo!]

I’m not the only person on this thread who supports this idea so it’s clearly not trolling.

I’d love to know how this organization can contend next season. If the Reds keep guys like Suarez and fiddle around at the edges and pick up a middle reliever here or a LF there, they will continue to be irrelevant for the next five years. If they get aggressive, they can turn this around a lot sooner.

JoJo also argued for years (and continues to hilariously not admit he was wrong) that Suarez is a “true talent league average player” so pardon me if I could not care less what he says about Suarez.

[camisadelgolf]

Bauer, DeSclafani, Galvis, and Gausman are due to be free agents after 2020. Lorenzen is a free agent after 2021. Everyone else on the team is signed through at least 2022. I think this is the perfect time to put together as competitive of a team as possible.

Anthony Rendon, Josh Donaldson, Todd Frazier, and Mike Moustakas are all free agents. Why would a team trade for Suarez when they could sign one of those players?

Then there's the question, "Who would be willing to trade for Suarez right now?"

DOUBTFUL:
Braves - Will Josh Donaldson re-sign? Is Austin Riley the replacement?
Mets - Will Todd Frazier re-sign? Is J.D. Davis or Jeff McNeil the replacement?
Nationals - Will Anthony Rendon re-sign? Is Carter Kieboom the replacement?
Rangers - they could move Gallo back to 3B due to Choo, Calhoun, and Mazara taking up the outfield and DH spots; unfortunately the Rangers are short on prospects and trade pieces that would help the Reds right now

NO:
Marlins - currently rebuilding
Phillies - Maikel Franco and Scott Kingery now, Alec Bohm later
Dodgers - Justin Turner
Cardinals - Matt Carpenter
Cubs - Kris Bryant
Pirates - Colin Moran now, Ke'Bryan Hayes later.
Brewers - Will Moustakas re-sign? Will Travis Shaw rebound? Either way, teams don't really trade players like Suarez to divisional opponents.
Diamondbacks - Eduardo Escobar, Jake Lamb
Giants - Evan Longoria
Padres - Manny Machado
Rockies - Nolan Arenado
Yankees - Gio Urshela
Rays - Yandy Diaz (and budget)
Orioles - rebuilding
Red Sox - Rafael Devers
Blue Jays - Vladimir Guerrero, Jr.
White Sox - Yoan Moncada
Twins - Miguel Sano
Indians - Jose Ramirez
Royals - Hunter Dozier, rebuilding
Tigers - rebuilding
Astros - Alex Bregman
Athletics - Matt Chapman, budget
Angels - David Fletcher, Tommy La Stella, Zack Cozart, and Matt Thaiss
Mariners - Kyle Seager

[RedTeamGo!]

Except it's not a silly question. OP started by speculating on what kind of minor league or young MLB players the Reds could get in return for Geno.

You dismissed it as an absurd, trolling post, and my question as being silly. If you didn't have a response to OP's question, why are you posting here?

It’s silly because no one is naming names.

Yeah, it would be awesome if the reds traded Suarez for 4 perennial all stars. Meanwhile. In real life....

[Falls City Beer]

Bauer, DeSclafani, Galvis, and Gausman are due to be free agents after 2020. Lorenzen is a free agent after 2021. Everyone else on the team is signed through at least 2022. I think this is the perfect time to put together as competitive of a team as possible.

Anthony Rendon, Josh Donaldson, Todd Frazier, and Mike Moustakas are all free agents. Why would a team trade for Suarez when they could sign one of those players?

Then there's the question, "Who would be willing to trade for Suarez right now?"

DOUBTFUL:
Braves - Will Josh Donaldson re-sign? Is Austin Riley the replacement?
Mets - Will Todd Frazier re-sign? Is J.D. Davis or Jeff McNeil the replacement?
Nationals - Will Anthony Rendon re-sign? Is Carter Kieboom the replacement?
Rangers - they could move Gallo back to 3B due to Choo, Calhoun, and Mazara taking up the outfield and DH spots; unfortunately the Rangers are short on prospects and trade pieces that would help the Reds right now

NO:
Marlins - currently rebuilding
Phillies - Maikel Franco and Scott Kingery now, Alec Bohm later
Dodgers - Justin Turner
Cardinals - Matt Carpenter
Cubs - Kris Bryant
Pirates - Colin Moran now, Ke'Bryan Hayes later.
Brewers - Will Moustakas re-sign? Will Travis Shaw rebound? Either way, teams don't really trade players like Suarez to divisional opponents.
Diamondbacks - Eduardo Escobar, Jake Lamb
Giants - Evan Longoria
Padres - Manny Machado
Rockies - Nolan Arenado
Yankees - Gio Urshela
Rays - Yandy Diaz (and budget)
Orioles - rebuilding
Red Sox - Rafael Devers
Blue Jays - Vladimir Guerrero, Jr.
White Sox - Yoan Moncada
Twins - Miguel Sano
Indians - Jose Ramirez
Royals - Hunter Dozier, rebuilding
Tigers - rebuilding
Astros - Alex Bregman
Athletics - Matt Chapman, budget
Angels - David Fletcher, Tommy La Stella, Zack Cozart, and Matt Thaiss
Mariners - Kyle Seager

The Giants would love a guy like Suarez. Your list is awfully subjective.

[Powel Crosley]

No, I would def trade Geno for Mike Trout.

That’s kind of a silly question. It would be prospects. I’m quite frankly over prospects.

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The smart move would be to buy out arb years and extend Suarez at an incredibly cheap rate and then let him hit 50 homers and OPS .900.

Oh wait, that’s exactly what the reds did.

Exactly. What the Reds did with Suarez is exactly what you would hope they could do for everyone. He's an all star caliber player who is signed to a team friendly contract throughout his peak years. His contract ends before his decline years really hit.

[757690]

The Votto mistake wasn’t sticking with Votto, it was not building around him during his prime.

If the Reds want to contend, they need to add to Geno, not trade him.

[Alabama]

well tooniforms defense you know absolutely nothing you can't you're from Alabama

Can you clear this up? I’m not sure if it’s an insult or not

[RedTeamGo!]

The Votto mistake wasn’t sticking with Votto, it was not building around him during his prime.

If the Reds want to contend, they need to add to Geno, not trade him.

Amen

[Coopdaddy67]

Frankly, I don't understand why the Reds would move Suarez this offseason given their current roster.

Shouldn't they wait and see how guys like Senzel, Aquino, etc. develop before trading away the one proven position player in their prime that's under team control for the next half a decade?

2020 is a big year in several different ways.

[KronoRed]

Only if Senzel was setting the world on fire and ready to step in, otherwise, nah, they won't get what they should for him.

[Falls City Beer]

The Votto mistake wasn’t sticking with Votto, it was not building around him during his prime.

If the Reds want to contend, they need to add to Geno, not trade him.

Sounds good but the farm is empty. How exactly will they acquire the many many MLB players they still need to contend? We’re not 1-2 players short. We’re two starters and an entire bullpen plus half an offense short.

[jojo]

JoJo also argued for years (and continues to hilariously not admit he was wrong) that Suarez is a “true talent league average player” so pardon me if I could not care less what he says about Suarez.

JoJo has been consistently correct in his assessment of Geno as is easily demonstrable and Geno literally is daring people to try a gotcha moment. Meanwhile some consistently whine that people who don't agree with them are trolling so frankly, crying another river really ain't irrigating much in the way of a discussion that's worth paying attention to....

[757690]

Sounds good but the farm is empty. How exactly will they acquire the many many MLB players they still need to contend? We’re not 1-2 players short. We’re two starters and an entire bullpen plus half an offense short.

Same way they did it last season. Acquire vets on expiring big contracts. It will take some research, some digging, but if they can turn around the rotation like they did last offseason without giving up any major prospects, they can turn around the offense and pen this off season.

[RedTeamGo!]

JoJo has been consistently correct in his assessment of Geno as is easily demonstrable and Geno literally is daring people to try a gotcha moment. Meanwhile some consistently whine that people who don't agree with them are trolling so frankly, crying another river really ain't irrigating much in the way of a discussion that's worth paying attention to....

“True talent league average player.”

[herbdizzle]

Honestly I don't get all the doom and gloom around the Reds at the moment. Look how many young guys they have that are slowly working their way into meaningful contributions on the roster.

- Senzel
- Aquino
- Van Meter
- Winker
- Ervin
- Farmer

That's 6 guys either in their rookie or 2nd year that I would argue are projected to be part of the position player core for 2020 at present. Honestly all these guys have earned their chance to play and I'd rather let them be our core. Don't trade away the 1 guy locked up long term with excess value. I'm honestly OK with the Reds position player side as is.

For 2020, I'm OK with where the rotation is as well: Castillo, Gray, Bauer, Disco, Mahle, Gausman, Sims. I'd take my chances with that group.

Where they need to spend money on is the bullpen. I'd be signing at least 3 established vet relievers with late inning chops. With at least 1 a lefty. Take that 25-30 million in payflex and put it all here. Add 3 new arms with Lorenzen, Garrett, Sims, Stephenson & Reed. I'd trade Iglesias away for another underperforming player that has rebound possibility. Shop around and find another player that matches up. They're out there.

[westofyou]

The Reds don’t deserve good players argument is tired.

Trading talent for a bullpen arm and a starter is Frank Robinsonish. How about accepting that this is a transition year on less levels than the last four nightmares and build off of that?

[westofyou]

JoJo has been consistently correct in his assessment of Geno as is easily demonstrable and Geno literally is daring people to try a gotcha moment. Meanwhile some consistently whine that people who don't agree with them are trolling so frankly, crying another river really ain't irrigating much in the way of a discussion that's worth paying attention to....

Every time JoJo refers to himself in third person an Angel dies

[The Operator]

Sounds good but the farm is empty. How exactly will they acquire the many many MLB players they still need to contend? We’re not 1-2 players short. We’re two starters and an entire bullpen plus half an offense short.

Man, you spent months talking about how close this team was.

This is just contrarianism or perhaps an angry rant after a tough series. Either way, a total change of tune from you.

[jojo]

Every time JoJo refers to himself in third person an Angel dies

JoJo begets angels.

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The Reds don’t deserve good players argument is tired.

Trading talent for a bullpen arm and a starter is Frank Robinsonish. How about accepting that this is a transition year on less levels than the last four nightmares and build off of that?

The Reds don't deserve anything. It's certainly appropriate for them to hoard and stockpile good players though if they are capable.

[westofyou]

JoJo begets angels.

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The Reds don't deserve anything. It's certainly appropriate for them to hoard and stockpile good players though if they are capable.

Move him then... who is the Reds 3b next year?

Senzel?

[elrojo]

Yes, indeed. How soon (54 years?) do we forget the results of trading an all-star offensive player (and defensive in Suarez' case) for
pitching. Didn't work then, won't work now.

[RedsBaron]

The Reds don’t deserve good players argument is tired.

Trading talent for a bullpen arm and a starter is Frank Robinsonish. How about accepting that this is a transition year on less levels than the last four nightmares and build off of that?
Even the Frank Robinson trade could have worked out for the Reds in the long run if, instead of Milt Pappas, the Reds had received the young Jim Palmer as the starting pitcher in the deal.
The point is what return you get when you make a trade. In the winter of 1971-72 Bob Howsam, while he knew it made sense to trade either Lee May or Tony Perez for more speed, primarily first identified the player he wanted to acquire, Joe Morgan, not the player he wanted to trade.

[Falls City Beer]

Even the Frank Robinson trade could have worked out for the Reds in the long run if, instead of Milt Pappas, the Reds had received the young Jim Palmer as the starting pitcher in the deal.
The point is what return you get when you make a trade. In the winter of 1971-72 Bob Howsam, while he knew it made sense to trade either Lee May or Tony Perez for more speed, primarily first identified the player he wanted to acquire, Joe Morgan, not the player he wanted to trade.

Exactly. The devil is in the details. And respectfully, Geno is no Frank Robinson.

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Man, you spent months talking about how close this team was.

This is just contrarianism or perhaps an angry rant after a tough series. Either way, a total change of tune from you.


When the facts change, the approach changes. The Reds have effectively kneecapped themselves with the Bauer debacle, expending not only valuable payroll room but start after valuable start (ironically because he’s making a lot).

[westofyou]

Even the Frank Robinson trade could have worked out for the Reds in the long run if, instead of Milt Pappas, the Reds had received the young Jim Palmer as the starting pitcher in the deal.
The point is what return you get when you make a trade. In the winter of 1971-72 Bob Howsam, while he knew it made sense to trade either Lee May or Tony Perez for more speed, primarily first identified the player he wanted to acquire, Joe Morgan, not the player he wanted to trade.

It helped that Morgan and Walker were at loggerheads, they undervalued him. I can’t see that occurring today

[jojo]

Move him then... who is the Reds 3b next year?

Senzel?

I dunno. I think Senzel could. It would depend upon what else the Reds did. There's a lot of ways the dominos could fall. But Suarez is basically about the only chip they have that would reasonably bring enough dominos to make something different. It's not crazy to contemplate.

[Falls City Beer]

Honestly I don't get all the doom and gloom around the Reds at the moment. Look how many young guys they have that are slowly working their way into meaningful contributions on the roster.

- Senzel
- Aquino
- Van Meter
- Winker
- Ervin
- Farmer

That's 6 guys either in their rookie or 2nd year that I would argue are projected to be part of the position player core for 2020 at present. Honestly all these guys have earned their chance to play and I'd rather let them be our core. Don't trade away the 1 guy locked up long term with excess value. I'm honestly OK with the Reds position player side as is.

For 2020, I'm OK with where the rotation is as well: Castillo, Gray, Bauer, Disco, Mahle, Gausman, Sims. I'd take my chances with that group.

Where they need to spend money on is the bullpen. I'd be signing at least 3 established vet relievers with late inning chops. With at least 1 a lefty. Take that 25-30 million in payflex and put it all here. Add 3 new arms with Lorenzen, Garrett, Sims, Stephenson & Reed. I'd trade Iglesias away for another underperforming player that has rebound possibility. Shop around and find another player that matches up. They're out there.

That entire bullet-pointed list is AAAA guys. Absolute tweeners. Aquino might be a fluke every day player but not likely.

[camisadelgolf]

The Giants would love a guy like Suarez. Your list is awfully subjective.
I agree that my list is subjective, but how are the Giants going to pull off retaining Longoria while trading for Suarez?

[Larry Schuler]

The club has a collective brain fever that Bauer has earned 30 starts and they’re about to spend their next year’s bullpen budget on him. This organization is going nowhere. They need to retrench

I’ve been saying it for years. The Reds biggest problem and their ultimate downfall is that their fans on RedsZone.com didn’t all agree with you that Bauer is a guaranteed bust the day he was traded for. These same posters on this forum agreeing with you that trading Suarez is a great idea might be the only thing that can save this doomed franchise.

[Falls City Beer]

I agree that my list is subjective, but how are the Giants going to pull off retaining Longoria while trading for Suarez?

Why would they want to retain Longoria? He’s a replacement level player at this point and not getting younger.

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I’ve been saying it for years. The Reds biggest problem and their ultimate downfall is that their fans on RedsZone.com didn’t all agree with you that Bauer is a guaranteed bust the day he was traded for. These same posters on this forum agreeing with you that trading Suarez is a great idea might be the only thing that can save this doomed franchise.

Like John in the wilderness am I.

[camisadelgolf]

Why would they want to retain Longoria? He’s a below replacement level player at this point.
Huh? This year he has been worth 2.2 WAR by Fangraphs and 2.6 WAR by Baseball-Reference. For comparison, Suarez has been worth 2.8 fWAR and 2.9 bWAR this year. I'm not saying they particularly want to retain Longoria, but are they really going to trade some of their best prospects and bench someone who is owed 54.5M over the next 3 years just to have a slight upgrade at a position that could easily be upgraded through free agency? The Giants make no sense as a home for Suarez.

[Alabama]

Honestly I don't get all the doom and gloom around the Reds at the moment. Look how many young guys they have that are slowly working their way into meaningful contributions on the roster.

- Senzel
- Aquino
- Van Meter
- Winker
- Ervin
- Farmer

That's 6 guys either in their rookie or 2nd year that I would argue are projected to be part of the position player core for 2020 at present. Honestly all these guys have earned their chance to play and I'd rather let them be our core. Don't trade away the 1 guy locked up long term with excess value. I'm honestly OK with the Reds position player side as is.

For 2020, I'm OK with where the rotation is as well: Castillo, Gray, Bauer, Disco, Mahle, Gausman, Sims. I'd take my chances with that group.

Where they need to spend money on is the bullpen. I'd be signing at least 3 established vet relievers with late inning chops. With at least 1 a lefty. Take that 25-30 million in payflex and put it all here. Add 3 new arms with Lorenzen, Garrett, Sims, Stephenson & Reed. I'd trade Iglesias away for another underperforming player that has rebound possibility. Shop around and find another player that matches up. They're out there.

Oh buddy. If you think that is a list to get excited about then have I got some bad news for you. I may go as far as saying every single team has better younger players than that outside of Baltimore. And in a lot of cases(Atl, San Diego,Chicago x2, Toronto, Houston, etc) in a different stratosphere.

[jojo]

I’ve been saying it for years. The Reds biggest problem and their ultimate downfall is that their fans on RedsZone.com didn’t all agree with you that Bauer is a guaranteed bust the day he was traded for. These same posters on this forum agreeing with you that trading Suarez is a great idea might be the only thing that can save this doomed franchise.

Might?

[PTjvs]

I'd be interested in seeing what OP & other trade supporters think a realistic return for Suarez would be, with names.

[westofyou]

Oh buddy. If you think that is a list to get excited about then have I got some bad news for you. I may go as far as saying every single team has better younger players than that outside of Baltimore. And in a lot of cases(Atl, San Diego,Chicago x2, Toronto, Houston, etc) in a different stratosphere.

Can you show us your work?

[Alabama]

Can you show us your work?

Atl- Acuna, Albies, Riley, Waters Pache, Swanson, Soroka, and a slew of pitchers
SD- Tatis, Urias, Mejia, Paddack, Patino, Abrams
Cubs- we all know
White Sox- Anderson, Jimenez, Robert, Madrigal, Kopech, Vaughn
Houston - lol
Toronto- Vlad jr, Biggio jr, Bichette, Pearson
A lot of those guys are top shelf talents. Senzel was our best hope and he is gonna be a pretty good player, although I never, ever, expected to see him under 260.

[adkindo]

^^^shocking how you listed Atlanta first

[JFLegal]

i want to trade this thread for a thread to be named later.

[WrongVerb]

No

[westofyou]

Atl- Acuna, Albies, Riley, Waters Pache, Swanson, Soroka, and a slew of pitchers
SD- Tatis, Urias, Mejia, Paddack, Patino, Abrams
Cubs- we all know
White Sox- Anderson, Jimenez, Robert, Madrigal, Kopech, Vaughn
Houston - lol
Toronto- Vlad jr, Biggio jr, Bichette, Pearson
A lot of those guys are top shelf talents. Senzel was our best hope and he is gonna be a pretty good player, although I never, ever, expected to see him under 260.

"every single team"

Now do the rest

[RedTeamGo!]

"every single team"

Now do the rest

I would take reds situation over BJ’s in a second.

[Ron Madden]

I really want the Reds to keep Geno unless someone blows them outta the water with an offer they can't refuse.

Right now I hope his hand is alright after being hit by a pitch in the 2nd game of the doubleheader and that he won't miss very much playing time.

[Dat dude BP]

I would take reds situation over BJ’s in a second.

I read that wrong, I was about to blast on you till I realized you meant blue jays.

[GAC]

So you're going to trade a young, established 3Bman in his prime (and rather cheap too), the team MVP, for a so-called "electric" arm that could just as easily fall on their face. Would you do the same with Senzel? These are young players, IMO, you need to build around.

Bauer? This management is obviously excited he's here; but I don't think they're totally sold on him. And they don't have to be. It's going to be interesting to see what direction the Reds go with two of their starters entering FA after '20 (Bauer, Disco). If these two perform well in the first half of '20, don't be surprised if one isn't TD bait. And I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't Bauer over Disco (because of the potential haul).

And I hope some haven't let Mahle slip under the radar. This kid wasn't even suppose to be up here in '19. The Wood injury forced that issue. He's had his ups and downs obviously; but was also a bad luck loser because of the team behind him too (IMO). The game yesterday, where he threw well, is an example. He'll be looked at in '20. I like the kid.

And then there's Wood. Been out most of the season, so a slow start could be expected. But do the Reds take that gamble to retain him for next season. I don't see teams scrambling to throw lots of money at him. Reds should take advantage if possible.

But something in the back of my mind - and knowing this front office - says that Bauer may be the odd-man out because of the money involved, and trade value at the deadline. He could bring in a nice prospect haul ... or even an established player at a position of need. And IMO, it wouldn't devastate this rotation.

[ScotlandRed]

Atl- Acuna, Albies, Riley, Waters Pache, Swanson, Soroka, and a slew of pitchers
SD- Tatis, Urias, Mejia, Paddack, Patino, Abrams
Cubs- we all know
White Sox- Anderson, Jimenez, Robert, Madrigal, Kopech, Vaughn
Houston - lol
Toronto- Vlad jr, Biggio jr, Bichette, Pearson
A lot of those guys are top shelf talents. Senzel was our best hope and he is gonna be a pretty good player, although I never, ever, expected to see him under 260.

Biggio is hitting .214 with a .733 OPS. Don’t just put him in there on his name my friend. Ervin, JVM and even Senzel are having stronger seasons offensively.

[PuffyPig]

Trading Saurez for a deal that makes sense is not trolling.

Saying he needs to be traded because the Reds are incapable of contending over the next 5 years is absolutely the very definition of trolling.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Todd Gack]

The Votto mistake? Votto was signed to a 250 million dollar contract.

Geno is signed dirt cheap during his most productive years.


The Reds aren't that far away. They need a hitter and a better bullpen, you've said how close they were many different times this entire season. I think you're dabbling in hyperbole here.


Uggh, I just realized we have 4 more years of Votto's contract.

[mth123]

I generally don't think the Reds can make the trade they need to for it to be worthwhile to deal Suarez but a scenario where it may make sense. If they could, it might need to be with a contending team with good near ready minor leaguers and a need to replace the stopgap they have at 3B.

Josh Donaldson is on a one year deal in Atlanta. If the Reds could make a deal for one of their CF prospects (Waters or Pache) and a couple of arms (say Bryse Wilson and Kyle Muller), it could work. Sign a stopgap power hitter for 2B or 3B, stick Senzel at the other spot while we wait for India to replace the stopgap. Stick Pache or Waters in CF and suddenly you have a young cheap core with an OF of Winker/Ervin, Pache or Waters and Aquino with guys like Fairchild, Siri, Fiedl and Siani in the pipeline. India and Senzel at 2B and 3b, Tyler Stephenson on the way behind the plate. Just need a SS. On the mound, Castillo and Gray to anchor a rotation with Bauer and Disco stop-gapping in front of the braves guys, Lodolo and Greene. Mahle can be the 5th starter and has more upside than the board gives him credit for and maybe Santillan or one of the others can bounce back. Sign a couple of bullpen arms and it could work.

[Alabama]

Biggio is hitting .214 with a .733 OPS. Don’t just put him in there on his name my friend. Ervin, JVM and even Senzel are having stronger seasons offensively.

Yet Biggio is more valuable than each one of those guys. Substantially more so than the first two

[RedTeamGo!]

Yet Biggio is more valuable than each one of those guys. Substantially more so than the first two

He’s more valuable than Senzel? Says who?

[The Operator]

He’s more valuable than Senzel? Says who?

Says the cranky guy who hates The Reds!

[westofyou]

Says the cranky guy who hates The Reds!

Oddfellows Local 151 behind the firehouse
Where Peewee sits to prove a sage, to teach

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/85/4b/d7/854bd786217272bfa84c7a0bb9307b25.jpg

[foster15]

Sounds good but the farm is empty. How exactly will they acquire the many many MLB players they still need to contend? WeÂ’re not 1-2 players short. WeÂ’re two starters and an entire bullpen plus half an offense short.

Yes, we're two starters, an entire bullpen and half an offense short if you're trying to put together the PERFECT team. Something no MLB team has ever done in the history of baseball. To contend for a championship you need three real good starters and 4 real dependable relievers. The #4 starter needs to be about average and the 5th can be below average because you only need 3 in the post season anyway. And you can have some weak offense too, that's what the bottom of the order is for.

The Reds need to find a dependable closer and a maybe another dependable BP arm or two. Where would the Reds be in the standings if they got good BP pitching this season? I'd say very close to the top.

The Reds are close IMO and they don't need to trade their best position player to get there.

[Tracy Jones]

He’s more valuable than Senzel? Says who?

Senzel would be the best player in baseball according to him the second the Reds traded him.

[Tracy Jones]

If there’s a deal out there that makes the Reds a better baseball team immediately (by 2021) then yeah, trade Suarez. I have yet to see anyone attempt to opine on what such a deal might look like besides Mth. The theory of trading Suarez is ok, but the reality of trading Suarez is unlikely to match the wish list behind the theory.

[Alabama]

He’s more valuable than Senzel? Says who?

I would t expect you guys to see through your bias, but production, health, plate discipline, power, close on speed, etc.
Same age, Biggio has 100 less ABs but a higher war. A much better k to bb ratio. Identical counting stats, homers and steals without being caught.
The main reason is health. Senzel pulled himself out of a game due to allergies. Think about that.

[M2]

Let's trade away anyone on an upward trend for prospects, and let's give any anyone else.

Yeah that's been working really well for years now...


Stop selling commodities when they are at a low point.

Make up your mind.

If you don't want them traded at their low point, then you've at least got to be willing to consider trading them at their high point. They can move Senzel to 3B, where he's an upgrade with the glove. The Reds still are rebuilding. The amount of help coming from the minors looks minimal. Suarez is one of the few assets that can get them a haul.

[RedTeamGo!]

I would t expect you guys to see through your bias, but production, health, plate discipline, power, close on speed, etc.
Same age, Biggio has 100 less ABs but a higher war. A much better k to bb ratio. Identical counting stats, homers and steals without being caught.
The main reason is health. Senzel pulled himself out of a game due to allergies. Think about that.

Yeah, I’m not in the habit of making sweeping statements based off small sample size rookie stats.

[Tony Cloninger]

I would t expect you guys to see through your bias, but production, health, plate discipline, power, close on speed, etc.
Same age, Biggio has 100 less ABs but a higher war. A much better k to bb ratio. Identical counting stats, homers and steals without being caught.
The main reason is health. Senzel pulled himself out of a game due to allergies. Think about that.


You lecturing anyone here on bias? How much hypocrisy do you have stored inside that brain?

You FCB need to start your own He Man Reds Haters Club website and wallow in your constant misery of how much you think this team sucks. Will always suck and does nothing.

[Alabama]

Yeah, I’m not in the habit of making sweeping statements based off small sample size rookie stats.

Oh I’m not either. Check their minor league #s and you know, that major league pedigree

[M2]

Oh I’m not either. Check their minor league #s and you know, that major league pedigree

Biggio minor league #s - .255/.375/.424
Highest BA top 100 ranking - N/A
Drafted 5th round in 2016 (#162 overall)

Senzel's minor league #s - .312/.388/.508
Highest BA top 100 ranking - #7
Drafted 1st round in 2016 (#2 overall)

[Falls City Beer]

You lecturing anyone here on bias? How much hypocrisy do you have stored inside that brain?

You FCB need to start your own He Man Reds Haters Club website and wallow in your constant misery of how much you think this team sucks. Will always suck and does nothing.

hE mAn ReDs hAtErs cLuB

Come on, FCB as king of the pessimists is so 2011. There are 10 guys on this board now who are lapping me in that department.

I call it as I see it. When the facts change, I change. When they don’t I don’t.

The Reds got MLB production from 3rd, RF, LF, and to a lesser extent CF. They got AAAA production or worse everywhere else. It’s bad. I’m not interested in sugarcoating it. To me the burden of proof rests with the sunshine club: How and with what money are they going to contend next season?

[bubbachunk]

Man, I am all for being realistic but some of you take that stance as a guise for being able to complain about anything and everything. Sports are meant to be a fun and a distraction, if you can't find that, I recommend you look elsewhere. Life is too short and you are sucking the fun out of my sports with your constant doom and gloom.

[Falls City Beer]

Man, I am all for being realistic but some of you take that stance as a guise for being able to complain about anything and everything. Sports are meant to be a fun and a distraction, if you can't find that, I recommend you look elsewhere. Life is too short and you are sucking the fun out of my sports with your constant doom and gloom.


I wanna win. Yesterday. I’m tired of following a dogcrap franchise. I can only hope the front office shares the level of frustration this fan base feels.

[bubbachunk]

I wanna win. Yesterday. I’m tired of following a dogcrap franchise. I can only hope the front office shares the level of frustration this fan base feels.

Then don't follow them. That is what I did with the Bengals, stopped watching them over 10 years ago and the best decision I ever made in regards to sports.
Seems you are at that level of frustration with the Reds.....

[Falls City Beer]

Then don't follow them. That is what I did with the Bengals, stopped watching them over 10 years ago and the best decision I ever made in regards to sports.
Seems you are at that level of frustration with the Reds.....

I actually did for about two seasons. But I gotta have a non-winter sport.

[camisadelgolf]

Why would they want to retain Longoria? He’s a replacement level player at this point and not getting younger.


Huh? This year he has been worth 2.2 WAR by Fangraphs and 2.6 WAR by Baseball-Reference. For comparison, Suarez has been worth 2.8 fWAR and 2.9 bWAR this year. I'm not saying they particularly want to retain Longoria, but are they really going to trade some of their best prospects and bench someone who is owed 54.5M over the next 3 years just to have a slight upgrade at a position that could easily be upgraded through free agency? The Giants make no sense as a home for Suarez.

I'm still wondering what you have to say about this.

[Falls City Beer]

I'm still wondering what you have to say about this.

Well, if the Giants would rather upgrade that position with prospects than to pay FA dollars for guys on the wrong side of 30, then Suarez would be a good option.

[Alabama]

Biggio minor league #s - .255/.375/.424
Highest BA top 100 ranking - N/A
Drafted 5th round in 2016 (#162 overall)

Senzel's minor league #s - .312/.388/.508
Highest BA top 100 ranking - #7
Drafted 1st round in 2016 (#2 overall)

So confident in himself he completely changes his swing before 400 career at bats.

[westofyou]

I actually did for about two seasons. But I gotta have a non-winter sport.

Doesn't matter, you'll find pockets of crap in whoever you follow, it's a big cycle.

The real problem is it's like the time it takes a planet to circle the sun, some franchises are go around more quickly. Example, The Globtrotters are Mercury, the Yankees/Man United/Pats are Venus/ Earth, your Steelers/Cardinals/Lakers/Red Wings are Mars, Jupiter can be Packers/Red Sox/Celtics/Canadians, great teams that will be great again and then will oscillate between here and there.

Then there are the Reds/Cubs/Maple Leafs/Rangers (NY)/Knicks/Bears who are Saturn.

It's the Neptune's who are hating it, Sac Kings/Mariners/Canucks/Lions they are the truly doomed

[The Operator]

So confident in himself he completely changes his swing before 400 career at bats.

So now you're pivoting to his swing change when your first argument got blown out of the water? Interesting.


You're the one who said "check their minor league numbers and you'll see", which is exactly what M2 did and proved you woefully wrong.

Just own it for once. You're basing this entire argument on his last name being "Biggio" and nothing else.

[mamell]

Something that gets overlooked time and time again when talking about trades is that NOBODY knows exactly the kind of season any player is going to have. Very few people if any expected Aquino to walk into the big leagues and shatter rookie home run records AS IF he was Babe Ruth in the making. That kind of stuff is simply too tough to predict. I doubt anyone realistically expected Sonny Gray to turn his season around to become one of the premier starting pitchers the second half of the season. Did anyone expect Castillo to jump out the great start he had? Who among us expected Bauer to just fall off the cliff? How about even Ervin hitting well over .300 most of his season? Did many expect Dietrich to just fall apart and unable to keep hitting home runs every other day? Did anyone predict how well Iglesias was going to hit as a replacement SS?
The point is these things are really tough to predict. Unless you're the Yankees and can buy a world series championship every few years you're stuck in the position of hoping enough players have great seasons even when they've never really shown the ability to do so in the past which is how most small market teams win championships. You try to find the best talent you can, but every team has its limits and every player has theirs. It's not unheard of to see a player with a lifetime .240 average hitting 8 HRs per suddenly have a .313 season and hit 30 HRs and to the contrary, a guy with a .313 lifetime average have a .240 season for no reason other than just rotten luck.

[M2]

So confident in himself he completely changes his swing before 400 career at bats.

You said check out their minor league #s and pedigrees. So I did.

If you want to argue being Craig Biggio's son confers magical baseball abilities, my response is

https://cdn.chatsports.com/cache/cd/12/cd12c60af8eede918377b9ba5b927146-original.jpg

[kaldaniels]

See I go the other way here. “Cavan” is such a dreamy name, the guys gotta be a good ballplayer.

[Bob Sheed]

Make up your mind.

If you don't want them traded at their low point, then you've at least got to be willing to consider trading them at their high point. They can move Senzel to 3B, where he's an upgrade with the glove. The Reds still are rebuilding. The amount of help coming from the minors looks minimal. Suarez is one of the few assets that can get them a haul.

Suarez should be untradeable because of how awesome he is in relation to his contract.

I'm a big Aquino fan. He's more who I have in mind, if the price was right. And it would have to REALLY be right.

Castillo? Same boat as Suarez.
Sonny Gray? Same.

All the peaking Reds are signed to very team friendly contracts. Nice problem to have.

Then you have your Rasiel Iglesias's of the world.

[adkindo]

any update from yesterday on the hand?

[Tony Cloninger]

hE mAn ReDs hAtErs cLuB

Come on, FCB as king of the pessimists is so 2011. There are 10 guys on this board now who are lapping me in that department.

I call it as I see it. When the facts change, I change. When they don’t I don’t.

The Reds got MLB production from 3rd, RF, LF, and to a lesser extent CF. They got AAAA production or worse everywhere else. It’s bad. I’m not interested in sugarcoating it. To me the burden of proof rests with the sunshine club: How and with what money are they going to contend next season?


I give you a hard time but I have agreed with you on points going back to 2006. Off and on. I have done so and you make good points and detailed analysis. Not just hot takes that regurgitate the same thing or ironic musing. I think the last 3 years have just released the hounds of negativity even when the team looked to be making progress.

[Alabama]

I give you a hard time but I have agreed with you on points going back to 2006. Off and on. I have done so and you make good points and detailed analysis. Not just hot takes that regurgitate the same thing or ironic musing. I think the last 3 years have just released the hounds of negativity even when the team looked to be making progress.

Well it appears the hounds of negativity would be correct for not drinking the “looked to be making progress” stance. Right? Or would you consider anything in those last 3 years progress? I’d consider this year a bigger failure than last. 10 games under at the beginning of September, but, and it’s a big but, they gave up the following and all they have to show for it is 1 year of Bauer and Kyle Farmer:
Jeter Downs
Josiah Gray
Taylor Trammel
Scott Moss
Tanner Rainey
And please don’t give me the “ we were a little better” from April till now line. The long term future of this club is much weaker with way less prospect capital.
The bottom line is they went for it at least one year too early and completely blew it.
None of us saw Downs or Gray blowing up, I’ll admit that, but the people who are paid to do this should have.

[M2]

Suarez should be untradeable because of how awesome he is in relation to his contract.

I continue to labor under the misbegotten impression the idea is to have a good team, not geek out over individual contract performance. The Reds are deep at 3B, maybe find someone else geeking out over Geno's contract and see what they'll offer.

[Reds Lurker]

Well yeah, for the right price nobody should be untouchable. If the right package is offered, you pull the trigger on the trade. But I don't think this should be explored unless some other team approaches you about him. Otherwise it's silly.

Cause right now there is zero reason to trade Suarez unless someone convinces you you should. As with any valuable trade asset.

[GAC]

hE mAn ReDs hAtErs cLuB


I call it as I see it. When the facts change, I change. When they don’t I don’t.

These rookies don't know you like us established SERFs do my man. Don't ever change. They're just jealous because they don't have a Group named after them (LOL) .... http://www.redszone.com/forums/group.php?discussionid=12&do=discuss

[M2]

Well yeah, for the right price nobody should be untouchable. If the right package is offered, you pull the trigger on the trade. But I don't think this should be explored unless some other team approaches you about him. Otherwise it's silly.

Cause right now there is zero reason to trade Suarez unless someone convinces you you should. As with any valuable trade asset.

We overthink these things. Teams talk all the time. If a team is looking for a 3B and talking with the Reds about how they're looking for a 3B, then the Reds should have that conversation.

[Benihana]

The problem is I have a hard time envisioning what the right package would be to get me to trade Suarez. Someone posted something like Drew Waters and Kyle Muller. No freaking way.

The Reds would need 3 top tier bats as prospects (i.e. top 50 prospects or similar young hitters), in addition to a top 100 arm, coming back if they are going to lose Suarez's production for anything to make sense. In other words, it would have to be like a Herschel Walker-type trade. I'm just not sure what team that makes sense for - the problem with Atlanta is that other than Pache and Waters, one of which they'll definitely hang onto, most of their talent is in pitching. Houston, San Diego and Toronto don't need a 3B. Who else has the kind of talent we'd need, and would be willing to give it up? I'm not sure there's a fit that makes sense.

[M2]

These rookies don't know you like us established SERFs do my man. Don't ever change. They're just jealous because they don't have a Group named after them (LOL) .... http://www.redszone.com/forums/group.php?discussionid=12&do=discuss

SERPs

[GAC]

SERPs

Oops. Sure feels like serfdom around here sometimes.

[RedTeamGo!]

True talent league average

[Tom Servo]

True talent league average
Time to atone and repent, jojo

[hthe620110]

I will never understand people that want to trade away our good players but [complain] about the team always being in a perpetual rebuild. Just stop rooting for the team and move on, your life will be much better and we will not have to read about you [complain]ing about the team constantly.

[Chip R]

SERPs

You'll have to excuse him since he's not a part of SERP. If he were, he wouldn't have got the name wrong. :lol:

[Tracy Jones]

Time to atone and repent, jojo

JoJo doesn’t atone. JoJo doesn’t repent. It’s not in JoJo’s nature. JoJo makes you atone. JoJo makes you repent.

JoJo!

[membengal]

Time to atone and repent, jojo

I am here for this...

[PuffyPig]

Just because an idea is "out of the box" doesn't make it a good idea.

In my world, no one is untouchable.

But some are more untouchable than others.

[Rojo]

In other words, it would have to be like a Herschel Walker-type trade.

Do these trades still happen? Seems like you get one blue-chipper and some A-ball arms, at best.

I mean, in theory, I like the math of turning an A at one position into a B+ at two positions, I just don't see it happening. Probably just better to enjoy the low-cost production.

[Falls City Beer]

Do these trades still happen? Seems like you get one blue-chipper and some A-ball arms, at best.

I mean, in theory, I like the math of turning an A at one position into a B+ at two positions, I just don't see it happening. Probably just better to enjoy the low-cost production.

They happen. Look at what TB got for Archer.

[Tracy Jones]

They happen. Look at what TB got for Archer.

That was a terrible deal for the Pirates, and not likely to be repeated this offseason because it was a terrible deal. The Reds best bet to pull off a deal like that is to a contender, at the deadline, who is in desperate need and has the prospect capital. Unfortunately, that limits the potential suckers...I mean buyers, substantially.

[DocRed]

It's crazy that his oWAR is still higher last year than it is this year despite a .930 OPS that is 38 points higher this year. Thanks juiced ball..

[Rojo]

They happen. Look at what TB got for Archer.

That's barely above what I'm talking about.

[Falls City Beer]

That's barely above what I'm talking about.

Idk. Looks like a grade A fleecing 2 for 1 to me.

Are they rare deals? Yeah, but so is a 50 homer 3rd baseman in his prime.

[Falls City Beer]

That was a terrible deal for the Pirates, and not likely to be repeated this offseason because it was a terrible deal. The Reds best bet to pull off a deal like that is to a contender, at the deadline, who is in desperate need and has the prospect capital. Unfortunately, that limits the potential suckers...I mean buyers, substantially.

Deals like that haven’t happened at the deadline in years.

[Tracy Jones]

Deals like that haven’t happened at the deadline in years.

No they haven’t. It’s extremely unlikely to happen at any other time too. Especially for a 3rd baseman.

Look at it this way, if a team needs a bat and has blue chip hitting prospects to trade, why wouldn’t they just roll with their own prospects instead of trading any of them for Suarez? The only way they don’t is if their guys are in A ball, and frankly, I’ll pass on dealing Suarez right now for A ball prospects, no matter how highly thought of at the moment they are.

[M2]

No they haven’t. It’s extremely unlikely to happen at any other time too. Especially for a 3rd baseman.

Look at it this way, if a team needs a bat and has blue chip hitting prospects to trade, why wouldn’t they just roll with their own prospects instead of trading any of them for Suarez? The only way they don’t is if their guys are in A ball, and frankly, I’ll pass on dealing Suarez right now for A ball prospects, no matter how highly thought of at the moment they are.

Well, if no one's willing to pony up for the MLB HR leader, then don't trade him. FCB's not saying the Reds should give him away, but it is possible some team might make a mega offer for him.

[Patrick Bateman]

Time to atone and repent, jojo

I’ve tried a few times on this, however, he prefers to absolutely molest the archives, and ignore the actual pertinent evidence.

However, always down to see him squirm again. There is a sick amount of humour I get out of it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tracy Jones]

Well, if no one's willing to pony up for the MLB HR leader, then don't trade him. FCB's not saying the Reds should give him away, but it is possible some team might make a mega offer for him.

Absolutely. I just think it’s unlikely. Deals like that seem to usually be reserved for pitchers.

[M2]

Absolutely. I just think it’s unlikely. Deals like that seem to usually be reserved for pitchers.

Might not get the golden offer, but I think the instinct that Suarez has reached peak trade value is probably correct.

[Rojo]

Idk. Looks like a grade A fleecing 2 for 1 to me.

Are they rare deals? Yeah, but so is a 50 homer 3rd baseman in his prime.

Meadows is blue chip, but Glassnow has pitched 100 innings in two seasons.

I'm definetly not in for a pitching "prospect".

[Rojo]

No they haven’t. It’s extremely unlikely to happen at any other time too. Especially for a 3rd baseman.

Look at it this way, if a team needs a bat and has blue chip hitting prospects to trade, why wouldn’t they just roll with their own prospects instead of trading any of them for Suarez? The only way they don’t is if their guys are in A ball, and frankly, I’ll pass on dealing Suarez right now for A ball prospects, no matter how highly thought of at the moment they are.

That's kind of my thinking.

I'm not against the idea, but I want to hear what people think is realistic.

Angels might be a bet. Reds get Jo Adell and Brandon Marsh? More? Less?

[kaldaniels]

Meadows is blue chip, but Glassnow has pitched 100 innings in two seasons.

I'm definetly not in for a pitching "prospect".

Go into detail on that 100 IP in 2 seasons thing.

[Tracy Jones]

Might not get the golden offer, but I think the instinct that Suarez has reached peak trade value is probably correct.

Yeah you’re probably right. I’m just leery of dealing him for anything less than a LOT of near immediate MLB help. Like at least 2 above average big league players who become such within a year. I doubt that deal exists. If it does, then yeah, pull it. If not, then you can find worse guys than Suarez to build a lineup around.

[Roy Tucker]

I don’t trust this front office enough to pull off a Suarez trade.

[Tracy Jones]

That's kind of my thinking.

I'm not against the idea, but I want to hear what people think is realistic.

Angels might be a bet. Reds get Jo Adell and Brandon Marsh? More? Less?


Jo Adell would be a nice get. I think the Angels or anyone else with that type of prospect would probably just insert him somewhere in their lineup rather than trade for someone though. I think the Angels or anyone else would have to believe that they’re a contender and Suarez would out produce their prospect by a wide margin for them to even consider a deal like that though. Like I said earlier, those deals seem to be reserved for pitchers. The Reds need hitters. They might be able to get hitters if Bauer is in high demand into next season. Trading Suarez for hitters can be looked at as 6 of 1 and a half dozen of another.

- - - Updated - - -


I don’t trust this front office enough to pull off a Suarez trade.

Yeah. There’s that to consider too.

[bullseye]

After a horrible 1971 season, the Reds traded away their top RBI man in Lee May. We got three players few had heard of. Worked out pretty well. Suarez and Bauer for a haul of young talent isn't a bad idea.

[Rojo]

After a horrible 1971 season, the Reds traded away their top RBI man in Lee May. We got three players few had heard of. Worked out pretty well. Suarez and Bauer for a haul of young talent isn't a bad idea.

And the myriad deals that didn't work have disappeared down the memory hole.

Drew Henson, Jackson Melian, Brian Reith and Ed Yarnall.

[Rojo]

Jo Adell would be a nice get. I think the Angels or anyone else with that type of prospect would probably just insert him somewhere in their lineup rather than trade for someone though.

I think they would do it because Geno has a good chance of out-producing Adell over the next few years, at a premium position.

Which is why I would be reluctant to do it if I were the Reds. I'd want two Adells and how many teams have those?

[M2]

I don’t trust this front office enough to pull off a Suarez trade.

That's a fair concern.

[WrongVerb]

Do. Not. Trade. Suarez.

[wally post]

I love Suarez and I don't trust the front office to make a good trade, but just saying...
Suarez for Syndergaard and more (the salary would make this very appealing to the Mets and they likely will trade Noah this off-season) and we sign a big bat free agent? If money isn't there to sign the free agent we keep Suarez.

[Bob Sheed]

I don’t trust this front office enough to pull off a Suarez trade.

AP WIRE 13 Hours Ago

Reds trade 3B Eugenio Suarez to San Francisco Giants for RF Milt Pappas Jr. and William's Family Yacht Repair Cash Considerations.

[Bruce Berenyi]

dick simpson also included

[Old school 1983]

True talent league average

Kang is better. How old are? Do you want to be humiliated?

[Kc61]

You want to get more value out of Suarez? Don't trade him, surround him with more bats.

[WrongVerb]

Joel Luckhaupt
@jluckhaupt

So far in September:
Eugenio Suarez: .370/.473/.957
Joey Votto: .340/.439/.553
All other Reds: .178/.257/.310
5:42pm · 17 Sep 2019

[wlf WV]

The type of haul we would be satisfied with doesn’t happen anymore. Methods of the front offices has changed, the value of top prospects is different than a few years ago.

[DocRed]

The type of haul we would be satisfied with doesn’t happen anymore. Methods of the front offices has changed, the value of top prospects is different than a few years ago.

I dunno I think he would get a pretty big haul. Not just because of his obvious production but also the years of control he has at a very cheap rate. Not to mention he's only 27 and in the prime of his career. Honestly, I'm trying to think of a similar player with such a lengthy team-friendly contract and I can't. (Maybe Ozzie Albies and Yelich, but he is only controlled for 2 more years)

[Rojo]

If you want to go bold, shop Castillo.

[RedsManRick]

I dunno I think he would get a pretty big haul. Not just because of his obvious production but also the years of control he has at a very cheap rate. Not to mention he's only 27 and in the prime of his career. Honestly, I'm trying to think of a similar player with such a lengthy team-friendly contract and I can't. (Maybe Ozzie Albies and Yelich)

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/2019-trade-value-1-to-10/

It is interesting. Suarez seems to fit a particular mold of player that's sort of rare. They're not guys like Albies or Alex Bregman who to prospects who were clearly going to be elite players in their early 20s. These are more guys who were reasonably well-regarded but who came on a bit more slowly. Seemed like they would be solid, reliable performers, perhaps with some upside, but not really stars.

Some of these guys seem to fit that mold, though Marte is having a crazy good season.

Jorge Polanco, SS, 26
Max Kepler, OF, 26
Paul Dejong, SS, 26
Ketel Marte, 2B/SS, 25
Jean Segura, SS, 29

Interesting that 4 of the 5 are SS or at least MI and Kepler is an elite defensive OF. It would seem that the profile for the kind of guy who gets this contract is the one who's got a high floor as a function of their defensive value and with upside potential in the bat that gives teams the potential to realize big value if it hits. In that sense, Suarez is sort of an outlier.

[Larry Schuler]

Suarez for 3 B prospects on their way out of baseball within 24 months. Does anyone have the Yankees’ number?

[TRF]

San Diego traded Big Game James to the White Sox for some scrub named Erik Johnson and a non prospect named Fernando Tatis Jr. Tatis never played a single inning in CHI's system. They signed the kid and dealt him for a guy they thought would shore up their rotation for a division run.

If the Reds can pull off a deal like that, I'm down. Is there another Griffey family member playing baseball that no one has heard of?

I'll take a massive overpay for Suarez. Wander Franco? Adell? Lux? That's where other teams start, with their very best prospect, and then they can add to that. Suarez is signed to a very attractive deal. I mean, he's super cheap.

But If I am the Reds, you have to come to me.

[Rojo]

I'll take a massive overpay for Suarez. Wander Franco? Adell? Lux? That's where other teams start, with their very best prospect, and then they can add to that.

If you could get two of those, great! But they all play in different organizations. So the "adds" to the blue chip prospect are likely low-ceiling placeholders or A-ball lotto arms.

So you're most likely making a one-for-one lateral. That's an ok move if we're talking about an aging player or fat contract. Neither of which applies to Suarez.

[Dat dude BP]

The only way I would trade Suarez, would be to get a guy like Castillo that the reds control the next few years. I would also want a bat to go with him. That said, unless it’s a team like the Yankees or reds Sox, nobody will pay that ransom. When you’re a small market team you look for deals like Suarez. The reds got very lucky with him and Castillo. The reds do need to part ways with the above average guys like winker, peralta etc. We need to put a package deal together and get a really good player for them. We desperately need 3 things this off season. Bullpen help, a starting pitcher, and a power bat. I don’t know if Aristides is the answer either

[TRF]

If you could get two of those, great! But they all play in different organizations. So the "adds" to the blue chip prospect are likely low-ceiling placeholders or A-ball lotto arms.

So you're most likely making a one-for-one lateral. That's an ok move if we're talking about an aging player or fat contract. Neither of which applies to Suarez.

I meant the bidding starts with guys like I mentioned, and then add in 2 more of their top 15 prospects. The point is if you are not getting a team's #1+ forget it. The Dodgers don't need Suarez, but using them as an example. Lux, Downs and Connor Wong. The Angels: Adell, Paris, Soriano.

The Reds would need a haul to part with Suarez. Now, I don't think anyone will pay said haul. But, you never know. Maybe SF? Perhaps CLE?

[Rojo]

I meant the bidding starts with guys like I mentioned, and then add in 2 more of their top 15 prospects. The point is if you are not getting a team's #1+ forget it. The Dodgers don't need Suarez, but using them as an example. Lux, Downs and Connor Wong. The Angels: Adell, Paris, Soriano.

Yeah, I get it. My point is that for most teams it's a steep drop after their first or second highest prospect.

I don't rule out trading Suarez, maybe you can get Pache and Riley and more. I just doubt it.

[DocRed]

Suarez getting some love on MLB Tonight. Both Plesac and Girardi picked him to win the HR crown.

[Big Klu]

Kang is better. How old are? Do you want to be humiliated?

http://www.treknews.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/michael-ansara-star-trek-klingon-kang.jpg

[jojo]

Time to atone and repent, jojo

Sorry but when you're right, you don't need atonement.

[Tom Servo]

Sorry but when you're right, you don't need atonement.
Lame cope. If Suarez had fallen back to 2016-2017 levels, like you predicted in the 2017 offseason, you’d have been crowing about it. Nobody forced you to double down and triple down on the bit, but the post history ultimately speaks for itself. You tried to rain on the “Suarez is improving” parade early and he only got better and better.

[jojo]

Lame cope. If Suarez had fallen back to 2016-2017 levels, like you predicted in the 2017 offseason, you’d have been crowing about it. Nobody forced you to double down and triple down on the bit, but the post history ultimately speaks for itself. You tried to rain on the “Suarez is improving” parade early and he only got better and better.

If the Reds would've listened to jojo and traded him two years ago, maybe Milwaukee wouldnt be out drawing them by a million butts a year. Fact of the matter is redszone overvalued Suarez hugely and jojo has been by far the most accurate. Jojo thinks even you might somewhere deep inside yearn to be more than a metaphor for a cheesy scifi series though I certainly understand how reds fans might feel equally trapped. But to be content with it like a robot stuck on the darkside of the moon.... I don't get it.

[Cooper]

Worth looking in to. Trade him for a CFer. Move Senzel to 3rd.

[TRF]

If the Reds would've listened to jojo and traded him two years ago, maybe Milwaukee wouldnt be out drawing them by a million butts a year. Fact of the matter is redszone overvalued Suarez hugely and jojo has been by far the most accurate. Jojo thinks even you might somewhere deep inside yearn to be more than a metaphor for a cheesy scifi series though I certainly understand how reds fans might feel equally trapped. But to be content with it like a robot stuck on the darkside of the moon.... I don't get it.

dude.

The original Lost in Space was cheesy. MST3K is genius.

So you are suggesting that Suarez was overvalued by RZ but not by you, and by the same token not by any GM then. So if the Reds had traded him two years ago, a reasonable return would have been...? The key to winning the NL Central? With who at 3B? Vincej? Trahan? Austin Kearns?

c'mon man. Every now and then you have to step back and say, "whoops, got that one wrong."

[Patrick Bateman]

Honest question Jojo? Can you tell us one thing you have said on Redszone that has turned out to be wrong? Cop to one thing (doesn't even have to be Suarez).

For the record, in the business of baseball, where we are forecasting human and variable talent, being wrong is going to happen, and its going to happen a lot. It has to happen to everyone because it can be so hard to predict in cases. The best people simply get less wrong, or get less of the big ones wrong over time. Not only is it ok to be wrong, but it offers the chance to learn. It doesn't have to be a big deal to cop to a couple.

[RedForLife]

Worth looking in to. Trade him for a CFer. Move Senzel to 3rd.

Why don't we just save a step and move Senzel.

[Dat dude BP]

We need to call Toronto and trade Castillo and suarez for gurrero, bichette, and biggio.

[Wonderful Monds]

nvm not even going to bother

[jojo]

Honest question Jojo? Can you tell us one thing you have said on Redszone that has turned out to be wrong? Cop to one thing (doesn't even have to be Suarez).

For the record, in the business of baseball, where we are forecasting human and variable talent, being wrong is going to happen, and its going to happen a lot. It has to happen to everyone because it can be so hard to predict in cases. The best people simply get less wrong, or get less of the big ones wrong over time. Not only is it ok to be wrong, but it offers the chance to learn. It doesn't have to be a big deal to cop to a couple.

That you're asking really illustrates how rare it would have to be.... It's kind of like Jim Bowden critiquing Billy Beane.

[Patrick Bateman]

That you're asking really illustrates how rare it would have to be.... It's kind of like Jim Bowden critiquing Billy Beane.

Lol... nope, it illustrates how rare it is for you to admit to being wrong, not the actual act of being wrong.

If the bar for being wrong was simply based on my ability to admit being wrong, well, then my wife owes me a whole bung of apologies!

As far as the Billy Beane comp, I do have to admit, you do seem to play the heel well.

[Tracy Jones]

That you're asking really illustrates how rare it would have to be.... It's kind of like Jim Bowden critiquing Billy Beane.


https://youtu.be/fbMKjLe-RFA

[westofyou]

Yeah you were wrong when you said
everything's gonna be alright

You were right when you said
all that glitters isn't gold

You were right when you said
all we are is dust in the wind

You were right when you said
we are all just bricks in the wall

[Dat dude BP]

Guy just crushed his 48th homerun. He has an outside shot at foster. Thanks again Detroit

[Dat dude BP]

Those keeping track at home. Bryce Harper has 32 home runs is 26 and making 330 million. Meanwhile, Suarez is 28 with 48 home runs and making a modest 66 million

[RedTeamGo!]

If the Reds would've listened to jojo and traded him two years ago, maybe Milwaukee wouldnt be out drawing them by a million butts a year. Fact of the matter is redszone overvalued Suarez hugely and jojo has been by far the most accurate. Jojo thinks even you might somewhere deep inside yearn to be more than a metaphor for a cheesy scifi series though I certainly understand how reds fans might feel equally trapped. But to be content with it like a robot stuck on the darkside of the moon.... I don't get it.

“True talent league average”

Hahahahahahahahaha

True talent.....LEAGUE AVERAGE!

Hahahahahahahahaha

[Powel Crosley]

“True talent league average”

Hahahahahahahahaha

True talent.....LEAGUE AVERAGE!

Hahahahahahahahaha

I thought that was a post from a couple years ago, but nope, it was just on the previous page. Feels like we're getting trolled and those types of people don't stick around long.

[PuffyPig]

San Diego traded Big Game James to the White Sox for some scrub named Erik Johnson and a non prospect named Fernando Tatis Jr. Tatis never played a single inning in CHI's system. They signed the kid and dealt him for a guy they thought would shore up their rotation for a division run.

If the Reds can pull off a deal like that, I'm down. Is there another Griffey family member playing baseball that no one has heard of?

I'll take a massive overpay for Suarez. Wander Franco? Adell? Lux? That's where other teams start, with their very best prospect, and then they can add to that. Suarez is signed to a very attractive deal. I mean, he's super cheap.

But If I am the Reds, you have to come to me.

The problem with trading for a Tatis is that even the Padres didn’t know what they had in Tatis. So, you can’t intentionally make a trade like that.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[cumberlandreds]

I have a feeling that if the Reds did trade Suarez his name would eventually be mentioned with Frank Robinson quite a bit on down the road. Trading Suarez,especially considering his contract, is about a dumb idea as I have ever heard.

[GAC]

I have a feeling that if the Reds did trade Suarez his name would eventually be mentioned with Frank Robinson quite a bit on down the road. Trading Suarez,especially considering his contract, is about a dumb idea as I have ever heard.

Silly Wabbit! The only reason you acquire these young players is to develop them, build value, and then trade them away in their prime, gather more prospects, and start the whole process over again! You're no different then any other company whose objective is to design, build a product suitable for market. You're nothing more then a supplier, and the rest of MLB (customers) thank you for doing the hard work for them. Saves time and money.

Get with the program!

[cumberlandreds]

Silly Wabbit! The only reason you acquire these young players is to develop them, build value, and then trade them away in their prime, gather more prospects, and start the whole process over again! You're no different then any other company whose objective is to design, build a product suitable for market. You're nothing more then a supplier, and the rest of MLB (customers) thank you for doing the hard work for them. Saves time and money.

Get with the program!

I know, I know. I just don't have this 21st century way of thinking yet.

[JayBruceFan]

Well this was a dumb idea. lol

[jojo]

“True talent league average”

Hahahahahahahahaha

True talent.....LEAGUE AVERAGE!

Hahahahahahahahaha

If you're going to try and call scoreboard, at least critique the actual argument while being intellectually honest. And frankly I dare you to.

[jojo]

Those keeping track at home. Bryce Harper has 32 home runs is 26 and making 330 million. Meanwhile, Suarez is 28 with 48 home runs and making a modest 66 million

So what you're saying is that Suarez might have more trade value than Harper? I like your thinking. I wish the Reds were as enlightened.

[RedForLife]

Sooooooo... let's see if I get this straight. We're supposed to trade Eugenio Suarez in the hopes we get a future 'Eugenio Suarez?'
I'll add my 3 cents (inflation) here. We have a 3rd baseman for the foreseeable future at a great price to build around. We have plenty of other trade bait.

[Slyder]

So we finally have a guy who is worth more than his contract beyond his pre arby years and the immediate response is trade him for a bunch of lotto tickets (which is what 90% of prospects are)... Why don't we surround the one guy we have worth more than his contract more guys worth their contracts? I don't want to be in continual rebuild. Trading Suarez is the absolute dumbest thing the Reds could do, if people are overvaluing guys like India because of "control" lets use that to our advantage and try to give Votto another crack at playoff baseball.

[jojo]

Silly Wabbit! The only reason you acquire these young players is to develop them, build value, and then trade them away in their prime, gather more prospects, and start the whole process over again! You're no different then any other company whose objective is to design, build a product suitable for market. You're nothing more then a supplier, and the rest of MLB (customers) thank you for doing the hard work for them. Saves time and money.

Get with the program!

Thats just a bunch of platitudes.



Winning %
Reds Brewers
2019 0.471 0.539
2018 0.414 0.589
2017 0.42 0.531

OD Payroll
Reds Brewers
2019 106,440,714 108,403,700
2018 101,190,000 90,240,000
2017 93,768,785 63,061.30

Attendance
Reds Brewers
2019 1,677,205 2,762,047
2018 1,629,356 2,850,875
2017 1,836,917 2,627,705


And it's not like the brewers decided to be historically bad in order to load up on draft picks. They were better than the Reds during the previous three seasons as well.

I get that the Reds will never be a Chicago or St Louis type market. But which would you rather have? The Reds' or the Brewers' market and brand? Milwaukee is somehow managing by spending less than the Reds while being in the proverbial "small market" trap. And they're doing it in the Central, basically in the Reds yard. Admittedly the Pirates stink this year but they've pretty much put the Reds to shame too since the 2013 season.

Life is giving the Reds feedback. They aint got nothing "stockpiled" that they should be clinging to...

[RedTeamGo!]

If you're going to try and call scoreboard, at least critique the actual argument while being intellectually honest. And frankly I dare you to.

True talent


LEAGUE AVERAGE

[CaiGuy]

Thats just a bunch of platitudes.



Winning %
Reds Brewers
2019 0.471 0.539
2018 0.414 0.589
2017 0.42 0.531

OD Payroll
Reds Brewers
2019 106,440,714 108,403,700
2018 101,190,000 90,240,000
2017 93,768,785 63,061.30

Attendance
Reds Brewers
2019 1,677,205 2,762,047
2018 1,629,356 2,850,875
2017 1,836,917 2,627,705


And it's not like the brewers decided to be historically bad in order to load up on draft picks. They were better than the Reds during the previous three seasons as well.

I get that the Reds will never be a Chicago or St Louis type market. But which would you rather have? The Reds' or the Brewers' market and brand? Milwaukee is somehow managing by spending less than the Reds while being in the proverbial "small market" trap. And they're doing it in the Central, basically in the Reds yard. Admittedly the Pirates stink this year but they've pretty much put the Reds to shame too since the 2013 season.

Life is giving the Reds feedback. They aint got nothing "stockpiled" that they should be clinging to...

What on earth does a Reds vs Brewers comparison of attendance and payroll have to do with your being wrong about Suarez?

[westofyou]

What on earth does a Reds vs Brewers comparison of attendance and payroll have to do with your being wrong about Suarez?

Nothing at all.

Milwaukee has always drawn well with good teams, since the fifties when they changed the game by getting the Braves to move there.

They like beer there too... maybe you heard?

[Tom Servo]

What on earth does a Reds vs Brewers comparison of attendance and payroll have to do with your being wrong about Suarez?
It doesn't.

I guess at a certain point there's no use in even admitting you were wrong when you went so hard and you're in this deep, but the bit isn't even entertaining. It's just lame.

[TRF]

It is a red herring argument, but I don't think we need to say shut up to a poster.

And it ain't like jojo and I are talking buddies.

[Chip R]

Getting this back to the original subject and away from the bickering, every player in the system - major and minor leagues - should have some perceived value and the people who run the organization should know that value. It's like the Million Dollar Man said, "Everybody has a price." However just because someone has a lot of value, doesn't mean they should be traded. It would be difficult to ask or expect anything more out of Suarez. He's got a great contract too.

However, the Reds have a reputation - fair or not - for holding on to a player a year (or two) too long instead of trading him at his maximum value or before. Of course why would you want to trade someone who is producing? It's somewhat of a dilemma. You have to wonder if this is the apex of his career. Is he ever going to have another year like this again? Is it even possible for him to have a year like this again? Maybe he'll have a year or two more like this and then go into a steady decline much like Votto. It would have been tougher to trade Votto since he is a 1st baseman and it's not a position that's really in demand. Suarez plays 3rd which is a tough position to fill for a lot of teams. As we know, his contract is very reasonable. That gives him even greater value. Teams should be beating a path to the Reds door to get him. I know everyone loves Geno now. What's not to love? But when he goes into decline - and hopefully it isn't for many more years - the same people that thought he was untouchable are going to be complaining about how the Reds didn't trade him when they could get as much as possible for him.

[RedForLife]

I'm not sold on Nick Senzel being our ticket to a World Series title. Especially when he seemingly has an issue every other week. Vertigo, back ache, stomach ache, migraines, dizziness (Vertigo related?) and whatever else, I just don't know. And now with the torn labrum and subsequent surgery his cf playing days might be over. I like Freddie Galvis' energy and hustle and wouldn't mind him at 2nd base on a regular basis. If J. Iglesias takes the FA route we still have Peraza to play ss. He's only 25 and coming into his prime and could be that diamond in the rough we could use. Alex Wood can probably be signed to a 1 or 2 yr. deal based on this throw-away season. He does have a proven record at the MLB level and would love to have him for a full season before we toss him out with the bathwater. Picking up Grandal might be daunting because the Reds likely won't be the only team vying for his services and I don't see the Reds getting into a bidding war for him or anyone else. And Votto needs to be put back to batting 3rd. Middle relief is a giant question mark that we could answer by trading oft-injured Winker and Senzel (AL teams might be more interested due to Winker's defense and Senzel's labrum issue). Corey Dickerson could be affordable and playing in GABP could only serve to help his production.
If no other major deals are made and J. Iggy stays our lineup for 2020 could look like this:

1. J. Iglesias ss
2. F. Galvis 2b
3. J. Votto 1b
4. E. Suarez 3b
5. A. Aquino rf
6. P. Ervin lf
7. J. VanMeter cf
8. T. Barnhart c

If deals are made and J. Iggy leaves then we could trade Ervin for maybe a relief pitcher and a young prospect plus I believe he deserves a chance to play every day should he be traded to a team that needs a left fielder. That being the case then this could be the scenario:

1. C. Dickerson lf
2. F. Galvis 2b
3. J. Votto 1b
4. E. Suarez 3b
5. Y. Grandal c
6. A. Aquino rf
7. J. VanMeter cf
8. J. Peraza ss

Either way, Go Reds 2020!

[Wonderful Monds]

I'm not sold on Nick Senzel being our ticket to a World Series title. Especially when he seemingly has an issue every other week. Vertigo, back ache, stomach ache, migraines, dizziness (Vertigo related?) and whatever else, I just don't know. And now with the torn labrum and subsequent surgery his cf playing days might be over. I like Freddie Galvis' energy and hustle and wouldn't mind him at 2nd base on a regular basis. If J. Iglesias takes the FA route we still have Peraza to play ss. He's only 25 and coming into his prime and could be that diamond in the rough we could use. Alex Wood can probably be signed to a 1 or 2 yr. deal based on this throw-away season. He does have a proven record at the MLB level and would love to have him for a full season before we toss him out with the bathwater. Picking up Grandal might be daunting because the Reds likely won't be the only team vying for his services and I don't see the Reds getting into a bidding war for him or anyone else. And Votto needs to be put back to batting 3rd. Middle relief is a giant question mark that we could answer by trading oft-injured Winker and Senzel (AL teams might be more interested due to Winker's defense and Senzel's labrum issue). Corey Dickerson could be affordable and playing in GABP could only serve to help his production.
If no other major deals are made and J. Iggy stays our lineup for 2020 could look like this:

1. J. Iglesias ss
2. F. Galvis 2b
3. J. Votto 1b
4. E. Suarez 3b
5. A. Aquino rf
6. P. Ervin lf
7. J. VanMeter cf
8. T. Barnhart c

If deals are made and J. Iggy leaves then we could trade Ervin for maybe a relief pitcher and a young prospect plus I believe he deserves a chance to play every day should he be traded to a team that needs a left fielder. That being the case then this could be the scenario:

1. C. Dickerson lf
2. F. Galvis 2b
3. J. Votto 1b
4. E. Suarez 3b
5. Y. Grandal c
6. A. Aquino rf
7. J. VanMeter cf
8. J. Peraza ss

Either way, Go Reds 2020!

Absolutely no to playing Freddie Galvis over Nick Senzel.

[Benihana]

I'm not sure there is a single player in the game I'd trade Suarez straight up for at this time, and that includes Franco, Tatis and Guerrero.

If you package a name like that with a pitcher with real upside (Mackenzie Gore, etc.) then I might consider it. But realistically that just means I wouldn't trade Suarez.

[kaldaniels]

I'm not sure there is a single player in the game I'd trade Suarez straight up for at this time, and that includes Franco, Tatis and Guerrero.

If you package a name like that with a pitcher with real upside (Mackenzie Gore, etc.) then I might consider it. But realistically that just means I wouldn't trade Suarez.

The answer is Acuna but I like your thinking.

[757690]

Circa 1974- Joe Morgan’s value will never be higher. He just tuned 30. The Reds haven’t won a World Series with him. Let’s see what the Reds could get for him.

[NebraskaRed]

No player should be thought of as untradeable. The Reds should consider any offer they get for anyone including Suarez.

I'm not saying they should trade him, I hope they don't. I'm saying they shouldn't consider him untradeable.

[jojo]

What on earth does a Reds vs Brewers comparison of attendance and payroll have to do with your being wrong about Suarez?

That the brewers can succeed with arguably an even harder financial situation has absolutely nothing to do with me also not being wrong. But it does point out how feckless it is to cling to non answers no matter how exciting it is to watch juiced balls.

[Tracy Jones]

That the brewers can succeed with arguably an even harder financial situation has absolutely nothing to do with me also not being wrong. But it does point out how feckless it is to cling to non answers no matter how exciting it is to watch juiced balls.

https://media.giphy.com/media/3o752lPS3YWWxETnDa/giphy.gif

[Krawhitham]

He is signed through 2025 (25 is a club option) for a reasonable amount

$7 million in 2019
$9.25 million in 2020
$10.5 million in 2021
$11 million in 2022
$11 million in 2023
$11 million in 2024
$15 million in 2025

So unless you think he is going to fall apart and not be any good, trading him is not a good idea

[Patrick Bateman]

If you're going to try and call scoreboard, at least critique the actual argument while being intellectually honest. And frankly I dare you to.

Despite my brain telling me not to, I’ll take this for a spin.



Yawn. He enjoyed an offensive environment and an unrepeatable August and jojo still wasnt wrong. If the season were 10 games longer, he wouldve been lucky to finish with an OPS of .800.

The guy is what he is..a manifestation of his home park amidst a boost in the offensive environment league-wise .

This was posted after 2017. While being intellectually honest, can you provide a synopsis on how accurate this prediction turned out?

To give you a starting point (I’m charitable that way), in 2017 a sub 800 bat translates to something like a 105-110 rc bat.

He’s been at 135 since then, a 25-30% increase in offensive value.

[GAC]

Thats just a bunch of platitudes.

Appreciate the compliment buddy!

[TRF]

That the brewers can succeed with arguably an even harder financial situation has absolutely nothing to do with me also not being wrong. But it does point out how feckless it is to cling to non answers no matter how exciting it is to watch juiced balls.

The ball is juiced. I think everyone agrees that is the case.

Why doesn't Mike Trout have 95 HR's?

[klw]

Circa 1974- Joe Morgan’s value will never be higher. He just tuned 30. The Reds haven’t won a World Series with him. Let’s see what the Reds could get for him.

Do the current Reds already have the equivalent of Foster, Griffey, Geronimo, Rose, Concepcion, Perez, Driessen, and Bench ready to go next year? I will say that I do think that Curt Casali and/ or Kyle Farmer could outperform Bill Plummer.

A better analogy is that after the 71 season, the Reds shipped off Lee May and Thommy Helms to bring in Ed Armbrister, Jack Billingham, Cesar Geronimo, Denis Menke and Joe Morgan. May was coming off of his age 28 season when he put up 39 hrs (3rd in NL) 98 rbi (6th in NL) with a slash line of 278/.332/.532/.864 with an OPS+ of 147 (7th in NL).

[TRF]

Do the current Reds already have the equivalent of Foster, Griffey, Geronimo, Rose, Concepcion, Perez, Driessen, and Bench ready to go next year? I will say that I do think that Curt Casali and/ or Kyle Farmer could outperform Bill Plummer.

A better analogy is that after the 71 season, the Reds shipped off Lee May and Thommy Helms to bring in Ed Armbrister, Jack Billingham, Cesar Geronimo, Denis Menke and Joe Morgan. May was coming off of his age 28 season when he put up 39 hrs (3rd in NL) 98 rbi (6th in NL) with a slash line of 278/.332/.532/.864 with an OPS+ of 147 (7th in NL).

That's an interesting take. One that predates... computers.

I guess one way to counter that argument is simple. What trade in the last 5 years compares favorably to that one? How about the last 10 years?

[Chip R]

That the brewers can succeed with arguably an even harder financial situation has absolutely nothing to do with me also not being wrong. But it does point out how feckless it is to cling to non answers no matter how exciting it is to watch juiced balls.

Why would they have a harder financial situation? They draw upwards of 2.5 people every year since 2007 save for 2016 and have drawn 3M people 3 times in that span. Meanwhile the Reds haven't drawn 2 million fans since 2015 and won't this year either.

[jojo]

The ball is juiced. I think everyone agrees that is the case.

Why doesn't Mike Trout have 95 HR's?

Trout's HR/FB% has increased yearly since 2017 too despite playing in a different uni than Suarez. Would Suarez look the same playing in an Angels' uni? I dunno. Zach Cozart sure doesn't. But also, Trout does other things besides hitting a home run or striking out. Suarez is a guy whose defense is aging to neutral, base running value is crumbling and whose bat is masked by an overreach by mlb as it tries to sexy up the game. Trout's fate is in his own hands. Suarez's "improvement" is heavily dependent upon the arbitrary decisions of great men. His spike in ISO is not "natural" as it tracks the increase in HR/FB% mlb has been manipulating in an effort to increase offense and his huge bump coincides with a pretty historic bump across the league this year. In other words, Suarez is very much a product of environment because it aint natural for league average HR/FB% to increase 21% in a year or 34% in the span of 4 seasons. And there sure wasn't anyone predicting it because well, it's unnatural.

If you want to argue "so what, he is what he is in this environment". Cool. Till mlb decides to arbitrarily over correct again as they always do when their efforts to manipulate the game become too transparent. And don't act like you saw it coming all along.

[westofyou]

Why would they have a harder financial situation? They draw upwards of 2.5 people every year since 2007 save for 2016 and have drawn 3M people 3 times in that span. Meanwhile the Reds haven't drawn 2 million fans since 2015 and won't this year either.

Since they moved there from Seattle they have drawn only five million less fans than the Reds, who have never topped three million

[westofyou]

Do the current Reds already have the equivalent of Foster, Griffey, Geronimo, Rose, Concepcion, Perez, Driessen, and Bench ready to go next year? I will say that I do think that Curt Casali and/ or Kyle Farmer could outperform Bill Plummer.

A better analogy is that after the 71 season, the Reds shipped off Lee May and Thommy Helms to bring in Ed Armbrister, Jack Billingham, Cesar Geronimo, Denis Menke and Joe Morgan. May was coming off of his age 28 season when he put up 39 hrs (3rd in NL) 98 rbi (6th in NL) with a slash line of 278/.332/.532/.864 with an OPS+ of 147 (7th in NL).

Morgan had issues with Harry Walker, thought he was a racist and they couldn't get along. Many thought him a problem player (a common thing that blacks from California were faced with when they had to play in the south and for men who were raised in the south)

[Tracy Jones]

Trout's HR/FB% has increased yearly since 2017 too despite playing in a different uni than Suarez. Would Suarez look the same playing in an Angels' uni? I dunno. Zach Cozart sure doesn't. But also, Trout does other things besides hitting a home run or striking out. Suarez is a guy whose defense is aging to neutral, base running value is crumbling and whose bat is masked by an overreach by mlb as it tries to sexy up the game. Trout's fate is in his own hands. Suarez's "improvement" is heavily dependent upon the arbitrary decisions of great men. His spike in ISO is not "natural" as it tracks the increase in HR/FB% mlb has been manipulating in an effort to increase offense and his huge bump coincides with a pretty historic bump across the league this year. In other words, Suarez is very much a product of environment because it aint natural for league average HR/FB% to increase 21% in a year or 34% in the span of 4 seasons. And there sure wasn't anyone predicting it because well, it's unnatural.

If you want to argue "so what, he is what he is in this environment". Cool. Till mlb decides to arbitrarily over correct again as they always do when their efforts to manipulate the game become too transparent. And don't act like you saw it coming all along.

This is all trash. A word salad trying to be passed off as something other than what it is...trash. It’s a thinly veiled accusation of PED use, combined with “well he’s just fortunate that MLB juiced the ball.”

Everyone is a product of this “manipulated environment.” If you were correct in your assertion that Suarez is a “true talent league average,” his numbers would reflect that in this “manipulated environment.” Numbers are numbers. Production is production. Regardless of what you believe is “natural” or not.

Just admit that you were wrong. Sociopaths are infamous for their inability to admit this. You’re crossing into that territory with this continued nonsense over a freaking baseball player.

[jojo]

This is all trash. A word salad trying to be passed off as something other than what it is...trash. It’s a thinly veiled accusation of PED use, combined with “well he’s just fortunate that MLB juiced the ball.”

Everyone is a product of this “manipulated environment.” If you were correct in your assertion that Suarez is a “true talent league average,” his numbers would reflect that in this “manipulated environment.” Numbers are numbers. Production is production. Regardless of what you believe is “natural” or not.

Just admit that you were wrong. Sociopaths are infamous for their inability to admit this. You’re crossing into that territory with this continued nonsense over a freaking baseball player.

Please apologize for accusing me of an argument that I in no way made, hinted or suggested.

Then apologize also for just being a jerk.

[RedTeamGo!]

Please apologize for accusing me of an argument that I in no way made, hinted or suggested.

Then apologize also for just being a jerk.

Lol, imagine being a grown man asking another grown man on a message board to apologize to you.

[Patrick Bateman]

Trout's HR/FB% has increased yearly since 2017 too despite playing in a different uni than Suarez. Would Suarez look the same playing in an Angels' uni? I dunno. Zach Cozart sure doesn't. But also, Trout does other things besides hitting a home run or striking out. Suarez is a guy whose defense is aging to neutral, base running value is crumbling and whose bat is masked by an overreach by mlb as it tries to sexy up the game. Trout's fate is in his own hands. Suarez's "improvement" is heavily dependent upon the arbitrary decisions of great men. His spike in ISO is not "natural" as it tracks the increase in HR/FB% mlb has been manipulating in an effort to increase offense and his huge bump coincides with a pretty historic bump across the league this year. In other words, Suarez is very much a product of environment because it aint natural for league average HR/FB% to increase 21% in a year or 34% in the span of 4 seasons. And there sure wasn't anyone predicting it because well, it's unnatural.

If you want to argue "so what, he is what he is in this environment". Cool. Till mlb decides to arbitrarily over correct again as they always do when their efforts to manipulate the game become too transparent. And don't act like you saw it coming all along.

Actually look at pictures of Suarez from 2016/17 vs 2018/19.

You might find that the guy's muscle and weight profile is drastically different. That's why his defensive value has declined (he doesn't move like he did when he came up as a young SS), and the trade off has been more power.

We saw the benefit of him turning into a 4 win player in 2017, and that improvement is only being exasperated by the new ball.

But what you are saying is illogical. Why is Suarez hitting more home runs than literally EVERYONE? He's turning into as good of a home run hitter as anyone in baseball. What is it about him specifically, that has made him improve in this department more than everyone, besides pure random, fluke?

Why hasn't Aaron Judge increased home runs from 52 to 75?

Do you actually watch the games? Most of homeruns he's not exactly getting cheated with a bunch of random flyballs that hover slowly over the wall. They are launched.

FWIW, in 2017, the average team had an ISO of .174, in 2019 it's .174.

Last season, with a less ridiculous HR/FB rate, Suarez still had a 135 RC.

This year, he's clearly made the decision to adjust his game even more for launch angle... way more elevation, resulting in more pop up outs, more flyballs, and more homeruns. Its the sign of a player that has the skillset, the power, and the wherewithawal to adjust his game to the elements of modern day baseball. He's made the concious choice to change his body type to enhance his best attributes when SS wasn't working out for him.

These are all excellent attributes. He's not just sitting around waiting for the game to come to him, he's proactively turning himself into an elite power hitter and modern day baseball player. If the ball changes, I fully see him capable of reducing launch angle and trading home runs for line drives (as he has done previously).

But for you to recognize those attributes, you would have to actually prove capable of combining human elements, player development, with the statistical analysis. Where I am sitting, you have misfired on this one for those very reasons, and your stubbornness to recognize that will be what holds you back from actually learning something.

[jojo]

Lol, imagine being a grown man asking another grown man on a message board to apologize to you.

I'm not convinced that you spend a significant part of any day actually being happy. I'd worry less about Suarez or message boards, if I were in a similar place in life. And the reds absolutely should trade Suarez.

[jojo]

But for you to recognize those attributes, you would have to actually prove capable of combining human elements, player development, with the statistical analysis. Where I am sitting, you have misfired on this one for those very reasons, and your stubbornness to recognize that will be what holds you back from actually learning something.

But for you to recognize the error of your position over the last three seasons, you would have to actually prove capable of not picking and choosing between human elements, player development, with the statistical analysis whenever it fits a narrative. Where I am sitting, you have misfired on this one for those very reasons, and your stubbornness to recognize that will be what holds you back from actually learning something.

[Patrick Bateman]

But for you to recognize the error of your position over the last three seasons, you would have to actually prove capable of not picking and choosing between human elements, player development, with the statistical analysis whenever it fits a narrative. Where I am sitting, you have misfired on this one for those very reasons, and your stubbornness to recognize that will be what holds you back from actually learning something.

Ya, but I was right, and you were and are WRONG. You are sitting on a pedestal built of hubris, bias, and trollish behaviour (so its not really relevant at this point whats coming from your seat at this point in time).

There's nothing for me to recognize on this one. We now have two full years of factual evidence that I was correct.

BTW, you really should apologize for your behaviour :)

[Tracy Jones]

Please apologize for accusing me of an argument that I in no way made, hinted or suggested.

Then apologize also for just being a jerk.

Hmmm...

No

[jojo]

Ya, but I was right, and you were and are WRONG. You are sitting on a pedestal built of hubris, bias, and trollish behaviour (so its not really relevant at this point whats coming from your seat at this point in time).

There's nothing for me to recognize on this one.

I'm not trolling. And you're violating board rules.

[Old school 1983]

If the environment has helped increase Suarez’s HR total (a think this has some validity to it), then wouldn’t that hold true for the totals across the league? Despite this, he still seems to be better than true talent league average. By which measure is he? I’ve read a lot of this argument, but I’m really still not sure what jojo’s clear concise point is other than he’s right. Is it that Suarez is true talent league average? Is it that he should be traded? Is it both? A lot of people seem to be telling jojo what his argument is, and that he’s wrong, and he seems to be saying that what is being said isn’t his argument and that he is right. So I’ll ask....jojo what is your argument here?

[Tracy Jones]

But for you to recognize the error of your position over the last three seasons, you would have to actually prove capable of not picking and choosing between human elements, player development, with the statistical analysis whenever it fits a narrative. Where I am sitting, you have misfired on this one for those very reasons, and your stubbornness to recognize that will be what holds you back from actually learning something.

https://media-giphy-com.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/w1000/s/media.giphy.com/media/YF83daKvTOD3G/giphy.gif

[jojo]

https://media-giphy-com.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/w1000/s/media.giphy.com/media/YF83daKvTOD3G/giphy.gif

Kind of like you bringing up steroids with Geno....

- - - Updated - - -


If the environment has helped increase Suarez’s HR total (a think this has some validity to it), then wouldn’t that hold true for the totals across the league?

It absolutely has. It's kind of shocking to see several people in this thread asking why it hasn't.

[Patrick Bateman]

I'm not trolling. And you're violating board rules.

Feel free to press the report button and let the moderators deal with it.

They have talked to me before, and they will talk to me again. I trust their judgement to tell me when I have pushed the boundaries that they choose to enforce for consistency of their community, and I do not respect you enough at this point for you the one to tell me when I have violated the line (since IMO, you constantly violate other posters' limits in normal course of discussion and are not in a position to objectively determine when peers are doing so).

[Tom Servo]

It's sad. Despite his combative demeanor jojo used to at least bring something to the table discussion wise and maybe still can, but this "actually I was right and Suarez is still just only average" bit is aggressively unfunny and can really only be described as trolling.

[RedTeamGo!]

I'm not convinced that you spend a significant part of any day actually being happy. I'd worry less about Suarez or message boards, if I were in a similar place in life. And the reds absolutely should trade Suarez.

On the contrary, every time you post it makes me laugh and makes me even happier.

But good attempt at a burn, bro. Lol.

[NebraskaRed]

Not sure this thread needs to continue.

Also, why don't we have a thread appreciating someone who has hit more home runs than any other Venezuelan-born player, who is close to setting the record for home runs hit by a NL third baseman, and someone who's in contention for leading in home runs?

We are a negative bunch.

[westofyou]

Not sure this thread needs to continue.

Also, why don't we have a thread appreciating someone who has hit more home runs than any other Venezuelan-born player, who is close to setting the record for home runs hit by a NL third baseman, and someone who's in contention for leading in home runs?

We are a negative bunch.

We?

Nope, just some.

[cumberlandreds]

This thread has become completely useless and is now closed.